Re: [git-users] Use git on microsoft words documents
On 15 May 2015 1:48 pm, John McKown john.archie.mck...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Dale R. Worley wor...@alum.mit.edu wrote: From the original poster's point of view: Yes, you can use Git to store various versions of MS Word documents, but you probably don't get much benefit from doing so, since Git can't see into the different versions of documents to see how they differ; to Git they're just blobs. OTOH, it may be that collections of blobs is all that you need the storage system to provide. Personally, this is (yet another) reason to not use a word processor such as MS Word, or Libre/Open Office, and use a structured document processor such as LyX. I am not an expert in using it. It is not a WYSIWYG as the normal word processors. But it is somewhat. Of course, IMO using WYSIWYG is for people who like the sizzle more than the steak. I.e. the the content doesn't matter as long at is looks impressive!. Anyway, off that soap box, the contents of the file maintained by LyX is textual mark up (more or less) and so it is more amenable for tracking changes using git. Hear, hear! It is also more future proof. /M -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Git for human beings group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to git-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [git-users] Use git on microsoft words documents
From: Dale R. Worley wor...@alum.mit.edu From the original poster's point of view: Yes, you can use Git to store various versions of MS Word documents, but you probably don't get much benefit from doing so, since Git can't see into the different versions of documents to see how they differ; to Git they're just blobs. OTOH, it may be that collections of blobs is all that you need the storage system to provide. Konstantin Khomoutov flatw...@users.sourceforge.net writes: Steve (Gadget) Barnes gadgetst...@hotmail.com wrote: At the risk of getting flamed for mentioning a differnt dVCS, the Mercurial, (hg), project has a very sneaky extension called zipdoc that stores the content of the zip files, (docx are actually zips containing XML), and the fact that they belong in a specific .docx, (or whatever), file. On committing such a file it is actually unzipped and the constituents either stored, or for an update, diffed and then on a pull they are pulled as constituent parts and then zipped to reconstitute the original file. You could either consider using Mercurial or trying to find or develop a similar extension. I wonder what this actually buys: you'll end up with a bunch of XML files (and picture files, if any, and the Manifest file, and so on), and the problem is that that XML file representing the content is as readable as the original .docx. As they say, XML combines the efficiency of text files with the readability of binary files [1]. I mean, diffing a machine-produced XML files, where a tiny logical change in a document could result in hefty parts of that XML swath rewritten is just marginally better than the original problem. The question is this: If you make a small change to the document (as a human sees it), does this cause a small change to the XML files within the Zip? If the answer is Yes, then many revisions of a document can be stored densely in a repository. And it might be possible to merge small differences in documents using a standard merging approach. But the only way to know would be to talk to someone who has considerable experience with this. While not having personal experience, I've seen a number of reports that the 'expanded XML' approach to docx style documents (including LibreOffice I understand), which are zips of XMLs, often fails because the main package presumes that the internal XML files are in a particular order. Once the zip has been expanded, that order of file components is lost, so when the VCS repackages the zip, the components are not in the right order, and the main program can't read it properly. The key to all this (doing version differencing) is to locate a method [program] which can be fed the old and new versions, and have the diff presented to you in a meaninful fashion. Often 'Word' style documents don't have a good way that is both meaningful and compact at the same time. (a human factors problem, not a coding problem ;-) ! If the OP's originating program has a 'compare documents' mode then a small bit of coding should allow Git to feed the old version and new version to it, as long as it has an external API (rather than it all being via Gui/menu selection). -- Philip -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Git for human beings group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to git-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [git-users] Use git on microsoft words documents
Philip Oakley philipoak...@iee.org writes: From: Dale R. Worley wor...@alum.mit.edu From the original poster's point of view: Yes, you can use Git to store various versions of MS Word documents, but you probably don't get much benefit from doing so, since Git can't see into the different versions of documents to see how they differ; to Git they're just blobs. OTOH, it may be that collections of blobs is all that you need the storage system to provide. Konstantin Khomoutov flatw...@users.sourceforge.net writes: Steve (Gadget) Barnes gadgetst...@hotmail.com wrote: At the risk of getting flamed for mentioning a differnt dVCS, the Mercurial, (hg), project has a very sneaky extension called zipdoc that stores the content of the zip files, (docx are actually zips containing XML), and the fact that they belong in a specific .docx, (or whatever), file. On committing such a file it is actually unzipped and the constituents either stored, or for an update, diffed and then on a pull they are pulled as constituent parts and then zipped to reconstitute the original file. You could either consider using Mercurial or trying to find or develop a similar extension. I wonder what this actually buys: you'll end up with a bunch of XML files (and picture files, if any, and the Manifest file, and so on), and the problem is that that XML file representing the content is as readable as the original .docx. As they say, XML combines the efficiency of text files with the readability of binary files [1]. I mean, diffing a machine-produced XML files, where a tiny logical change in a document could result in hefty parts of that XML swath rewritten is just marginally better than the original problem. The question is this: If you make a small change to the document (as a human sees it), does this cause a small change to the XML files within the Zip? If the answer is Yes, then many revisions of a document can be stored densely in a repository. And it might be possible to merge small differences in documents using a standard merging approach. But the only way to know would be to talk to someone who has considerable experience with this. While not having personal experience, I've seen a number of reports that the 'expanded XML' approach to docx style documents (including LibreOffice I understand), which are zips of XMLs, often fails because the main package presumes that the internal XML files are in a particular order. Once the zip has been expanded, that order of file components is lost, so when the VCS repackages the zip, the components are not in the right order, and the main program can't read it properly. The key to all this (doing version differencing) is to locate a method [program] which can be fed the old and new versions, and have the diff presented to you in a meaninful fashion. Often 'Word' style documents don't have a good way that is both meaningful and compact at the same time. (a human factors problem, not a coding problem ;-) ! If the OP's originating program has a 'compare documents' mode then a small bit of coding should allow Git to feed the old version and new version to it, as long as it has an external API (rather than it all being via Gui/menu selection). I might be completely off track here ( and probably dreaming), but can;'t you define diff tools depending on file type? You could then use MS Word and =compare the old and the new version? I think to remember that I set it up some years ago? Rainer -- Philip -- Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany) Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology Stellenbosch University South Africa Tel : +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44 Cell: +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98 Fax : +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44 Fax (D):+49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44 email: rai...@krugs.de Skype: RMkrug PGP: 0x0F52F982 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Git for human beings group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to git-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [git-users] Use git on microsoft words documents
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Dale R. Worley wor...@alum.mit.edu wrote: From the original poster's point of view: Yes, you can use Git to store various versions of MS Word documents, but you probably don't get much benefit from doing so, since Git can't see into the different versions of documents to see how they differ; to Git they're just blobs. OTOH, it may be that collections of blobs is all that you need the storage system to provide. Personally, this is (yet another) reason to not use a word processor such as MS Word, or Libre/Open Office, and use a structured document processor such as LyX. I am not an expert in using it. It is not a WYSIWYG as the normal word processors. But it is somewhat. Of course, IMO using WYSIWYG is for people who like the sizzle more than the steak. I.e. the the content doesn't matter as long at is looks impressive!. Anyway, off that soap box, the contents of the file maintained by LyX is textual mark up (more or less) and so it is more amenable for tracking changes using git. -- If someone tell you that nothing is impossible: Ask him to dribble a football. He's about as useful as a wax frying pan. 10 to the 12th power microphones = 1 Megaphone Maranatha! John McKown -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Git for human beings group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to git-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [git-users] Use git on microsoft words documents
Original document will be reviewed and edited by a few people. Then later it will branched to different variations. Also, root document will be translated by different people to their own languages. The root document, these translated documents and branched document will be updated (root changes or better translations). How to manage this? On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 6:12:32 PM UTC+8, Konstantin Khomoutov wrote: On Wed, 13 May 2015 21:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Massoud Yeganeh massoud...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: Is it possible to use git to manage microsoft documents? We have so many files and we need to manage the version, change, languages, etc management. What do you mean by managing languages? Can we use git? You can, but note that MSO documents are essentially binary, and it's impossible to diff them using only built-in Git facilities. You might not need diffing at all (say, you're fine with just recording versions and put some information about them into commit messages, and are not interested in physical changes done to documents between revisions), and then you should be fine using Git as is. If you still need diffing, I think you might be better off with Subversion as there are tools available around it to help dealing with MSO-produced documents: * The diff viewer program shipped with TortoiseSVN -- the goto solution for working with Subversion on Windows -- has limited support for diffing MSO documents. * There is [1] which integrates support for Subversion right info MSO editors and claims to support diffing as well. I'd note that both products seem to rely on COM components made available by an installed MSO suite, so you'll have it installed on machines which would need that diffing functionality. Otherwise Git (and any other VCS system) will just be used as a tool to keep manage opaque changes to opaque blobs -- may be just what you need but supposedly not. 1. https://code.google.com/p/msofficesvn/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Git for human beings group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to git-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [git-users] Use git on microsoft words documents
On Thu, 14 May 2015 05:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Massoud Yeganeh massoud.yega...@gmail.com wrote: Original document will be reviewed and edited by a few people. Then later it will branched to different variations. Also, root document will be translated by different people to their own languages. The root document, these translated documents and branched document will be updated (root changes or better translations). How to manage this? Mark, Massoud, I started to question whether you're actually on the right track to find the solution to your problem. In my eyes, the problem with your approach is that you might not need a VCS in the first place or at least not *that* sharp tool Git is. Please don't be too driven away by the fact Git is currently on the hype and is the de-facto VCS most new software projects pick (to the point that some people asking for VCS-related help on non-VCS support forums do not mention what VCS they are talking about as they imply Git). Git is wonderful, but it's tailored to a specific task: managing source code of a software project by a person with advanced skill set and consequently matching demands to their tools. To me, it seems that your use case doesn't fall into this categorization (yes, I know that lots of inexperienced folks use Git but the question is should they use it in the first place). So, I'd like to ask you both: did you try to explore if one of the so-called document management systems (DMS) is actually the suitable fit for your use case? For instance, the Alfresco project is a mature and free DMS. A DMS allows you to inject documents, set up their workflow (approval, submission to other persons etc), manage their versions, receive notifications about edits etc. And all this using a simple (typically web-based) interface. Honestly, after reading your questions, I fancy how someone in your enterprise pulls from a shared Git repository, gets a merge conflict and... I'm just not sure that will play well, especially given the blob nature of those MSO documents (IOW, they are unmergeable in a normal sense). Do you really want to learn about remote vs local branches in Git? Suitable merge strategies to deal with blobs? I'm not so sure. Hence I'd suggest to first look at a DMS system and if else fails look at a centralized VCS (Subversion is a typical goto solution) or at least a VCS system which mimics a centralized workflow as much as possible -- with Fossil being a good fit. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Git for human beings group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to git-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [git-users] Use git on microsoft words documents
On Thu, 14 May 2015 18:39:41 +0100 Steve (Gadget) Barnes gadgetst...@hotmail.com wrote: Is it possible to use git to manage microsoft documents? We have so many files and we need to manage the version, change, languages, etc management. Can we use git? [...] At the risk of getting flamed for mentioning a differnt dVCS, the Mercurial, (hg), project has a very sneaky extension called zipdoc that stores the content of the zip files, (docx are actually zips containing XML), and the fact that they belong in a specific .docx, (or whatever), file. On committing such a file it is actually unzipped and the constituents either stored, or for an update, diffed and then on a pull they are pulled as constituent parts and then zipped to reconstitute the original file. You could either consider using Mercurial or trying to find or develop a similar extension. I wonder what this actually buys: you'll end up with a bunch of XML files (and picture files, if any, and the Manifest file, and so on), and the problem is that that XML file representing the content is as readable as the original .docx. As they say, “XML combines the efficiency of text files with the readability of binary files” [1]. I mean, diffing a machine-produced XML files, where a tiny logical change in a document could result in hefty parts of that XML swath rewritten is just marginally better than the original problem. To put it differently, IMO the only way to properly diff MSO documents is to use tools deriving on MSO libs to actually extract content sensible to humans from these containers, and somehow use it for diffing. I don't know how TortoiseSVN et al manage to use MSO-shipped COM objects to carry out this task, but they do. On the other hand, good tools for diffing XML *should* exist given the ubiquity of this crap in the enterprise sector. I don't know of any, but it worth googling or someone might chime in with a solution. ;-) In either case, I'm afraid both people who asked questions in this thread are looking for a document management system, not a VCS. And I'm afraid, setting up diff tools in Git wouldn't be an easily solvable task for them (please take no offence, guys!). 1. http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Git for human beings group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to git-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [git-users] Use git on microsoft words documents
On 14/05/2015 05:29, Massoud Yeganeh wrote: Hi, Is it possible to use git to manage microsoft documents? We have so many files and we need to manage the version, change, languages, etc management. Can we use git? Thanks. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Git for human beings group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to git-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com mailto:git-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. At the risk of getting flamed for mentioning a differnt dVCS, the Mercurial, (hg), project has a very sneaky extension called zipdoc that stores the content of the zip files, (docx are actually zips containing XML), and the fact that they belong in a specific .docx, (or whatever), file. On committing such a file it is actually unzipped and the constituents either stored, or for an update, diffed and then on a pull they are pulled as constituent parts and then zipped to reconstitute the original file. You could either consider using Mercurial or trying to find or develop a similar extension. Steve (Gadget) Barnes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Git for human beings group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to git-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [git-users] Use git on microsoft words documents
From the original poster's point of view: Yes, you can use Git to store various versions of MS Word documents, but you probably don't get much benefit from doing so, since Git can't see into the different versions of documents to see how they differ; to Git they're just blobs. OTOH, it may be that collections of blobs is all that you need the storage system to provide. Konstantin Khomoutov flatw...@users.sourceforge.net writes: Steve (Gadget) Barnes gadgetst...@hotmail.com wrote: At the risk of getting flamed for mentioning a differnt dVCS, the Mercurial, (hg), project has a very sneaky extension called zipdoc that stores the content of the zip files, (docx are actually zips containing XML), and the fact that they belong in a specific .docx, (or whatever), file. On committing such a file it is actually unzipped and the constituents either stored, or for an update, diffed and then on a pull they are pulled as constituent parts and then zipped to reconstitute the original file. You could either consider using Mercurial or trying to find or develop a similar extension. I wonder what this actually buys: you'll end up with a bunch of XML files (and picture files, if any, and the Manifest file, and so on), and the problem is that that XML file representing the content is as readable as the original .docx. As they say, XML combines the efficiency of text files with the readability of binary files [1]. I mean, diffing a machine-produced XML files, where a tiny logical change in a document could result in hefty parts of that XML swath rewritten is just marginally better than the original problem. The question is this: If you make a small change to the document (as a human sees it), does this cause a small change to the XML files within the Zip? If the answer is Yes, then many revisions of a document can be stored densely in a repository. And it might be possible to merge small differences in documents using a standard merging approach. But the only way to know would be to talk to someone who has considerable experience with this. Dale -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Git for human beings group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to git-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [git-users] Use git on microsoft words documents
On Wed, 13 May 2015 21:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Massoud Yeganeh massoud.yega...@gmail.com wrote: Is it possible to use git to manage microsoft documents? We have so many files and we need to manage the version, change, languages, etc management. What do you mean by managing languages? Can we use git? You can, but note that MSO documents are essentially binary, and it's impossible to diff them using only built-in Git facilities. You might not need diffing at all (say, you're fine with just recording versions and put some information about them into commit messages, and are not interested in physical changes done to documents between revisions), and then you should be fine using Git as is. If you still need diffing, I think you might be better off with Subversion as there are tools available around it to help dealing with MSO-produced documents: * The diff viewer program shipped with TortoiseSVN -- the goto solution for working with Subversion on Windows -- has limited support for diffing MSO documents. * There is [1] which integrates support for Subversion right info MSO editors and claims to support diffing as well. I'd note that both products seem to rely on COM components made available by an installed MSO suite, so you'll have it installed on machines which would need that diffing functionality. Otherwise Git (and any other VCS system) will just be used as a tool to keep manage opaque changes to opaque blobs -- may be just what you need but supposedly not. 1. https://code.google.com/p/msofficesvn/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Git for human beings group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to git-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
