Re: GNU projects using GitHub.

[Jean Louis]

* Alfred M. Szmidt  [2021-10-27 09:29]:
> A release is a release, how it is distributed doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if the release version is designated as such. For
example, if somebody tells me to checkout stable version of Emacs,
considered "release", by using specific git command, that is
acceptable.

But to provide to user simple access to Git repository without any
designation of what is release, and what is development, is rather not
responsible and brings users at risk.

> In the GNU project we prefer, but do not mandate, that people put
> release tar-balls on ftp.gnu.org or equivalent, it it makes sense to
> not to and only provide something via Git, CVS, or what have you that
> is also OK.

And software shall work, not just be development version. Some
software receives multiple updates per day that are not well verified
or working. If Git or version control repository is given in general,
without specific release branch -- this means giving to users
development version, not release version. It shall be designated as
such as not to cause confusion and also problems on users' computers.

Take Emacs for example, development version is not release. That is
because developers made clear distinction between them.

Without clear designation on what is "release" each user could be
downloading different version of software with different
functionality. 


Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: GNU projects using GitHub.

[Jean Louis]

* Po Lu  [2021-10-25 13:39]:
> Jean Louis  writes:
> 
> > But for developers and other contributors it may matter as maybe they
> > need to run some non-free javascript, I would not know.
> 
> This is the problem I'm referring to.

That problem is rather in development.

As I said, releases are on WWW server, not on Git server.

Git development should result in a release. But there is confusion
about it, and some developers think that "the source of release is in
Git" -- which is misleading to me, as Git is for development, not for
releases, not for download of sources.

As long as releases are referenced to WWW server and easily
downloadable, that problem for users is solved. But not for
contributors and developers, who in turn, by asking people to
contribute steer them towards non-free software.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: GNU projects using GitHub.

[Jean Louis]

* Po Lu  [2021-10-25 08:07]:
> Jean Louis  writes:
> 
> > I do not see that as problem as they contribute free software to GNU
> > project. 
> >
> > If they use some online proprietary software, that is their
> > decision. People may also use proprietary software on their computer
> > and be in proprietary operating system and create free software.
> >
> > What is important is to create free software, their contributions are
> > as such appreciated.
> >
> > Developers do get aware about Github gradually, there are many issues
> > and many developers move away from it. 
> 
> I was asking for a clarification of GNU project policy.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, 
> https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html
> lists GitHub as unacceptable for hosting of GNU software.

I know well. I don't support Github, neither recommend it, just like
you. But I don't enforce it.

That is Repo Criteria Evaluation. 

Here is GNU Coding Standards:
https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html

Any "Git" or any other version control system accessible on Internet I
do not consider as "release", it is "source" though not the source of
the release. I hope you get me.

Github contributed to the confusion.

Git is for development. Even on Github one may find "releases" and
software developer who understand the difference offer the "release"
which means sources and binaries of specific version.

Git is for development, but not for distribution. Fetching from Git is
IMHO dangerous, as you never know if it is stable or not. It is
development version, and yet many distributions rely on Git like it is
"stable", which it is not. 

Thus when considering ethical distribution of software, one shall
rather look if the RELEASED SOURCE is on a WWW (http) server and
accessible without using non-free software. Though I do not speak for
GNU, it is my personal opinion.

And where is exactly the DEVELOPMENT SOURCE version it is up to
developers to decide, even though such may be accessible to public, I
do not consider such as final source, unless it is somewhere
designated to be final.

Then majority of GNU software is downloaded from GNU.ORG server. 

In this case https://www.gnu.org/s/radio redirects to
https://www.gnuradio.org/ the web page which is not standard GNU
according to my expectations as I cannot find "Download" easy. Not in
first menu, but in second menu "Getting Started" I can find
installation link:
https://wiki.gnuradio.org/index.php/InstallingGR#From_Source then I
find how to install the Master branch:

https://wiki.gnuradio.org/index.php/InstallingGR#For_GNU_Radio_3.9_and_Master_Branch

and there is note indicating about "stable" release, but I may be
mistaken:

,
| Note: If you want to build the maint-3.9 branch rather than the
| default master branch, enter: git checkout maint-3.9 and then
`

So I can just think that maint-3.9 is the stable version, there is no
clear information which version is the stable version.

But that does not prevent me accessing Git server and downloading from
there.

If you follow this thinking, it does not matter to user how is source
or binary downloaded as it it either by web server or git, or
something else.

But for developers and other contributors it may matter as maybe they
need to run some non-free javascript, I would not know.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: GNU projects using GitHub.

[Jean Louis]

* Po Lu  [2021-10-25 00:36]:
> GitHub is listed on https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria.html as
> "Unacceptable".  And not only does it require me to run unacceptable
> software in order to use it, but performs much less admirably for me
> than Savannah.  (70 KB/s downlink, anyone?)

I do not see that as problem as they contribute free software to GNU
project. 

If they use some online proprietary software, that is their
decision. People may also use proprietary software on their computer
and be in proprietary operating system and create free software.

What is important is to create free software, their contributions are
as such appreciated.

Developers do get aware about Github gradually, there are many issues
and many developers move away from it. 

Jean

WRS/CRM/ERP within Emacs - Re: Lisp

[Jean Louis]

* swedebugia  [2020-09-14 09:13]:
> I'm interested in the SMS solution (do you use e.g. twilio?) and how
> you linked that together.

Any type of communication should be implemented through CRM systems,
sending email, initiating phone call and recording phone call and
results of such in the database, sending SMS and recording it, faxes
as well, XMPP or other communication types.

Emacs Lisp due to its "interface" already in place, together with Helm
and many extensions or packages is for me currently fastest and
optimal. By principle that everthing is text, also information in the
CRM is text. And I do not need to change windows from Emacs to
browser, from browser to editor, etc. From browser is not so easy
initiating calls, SMS, faxes, browser is for browsing, it was not
meant for calling programming functions or shell commands.

Emacs Lisp allows more freedom, I can call any outside command in easy
manner, I can find a contact and call SMS commands, initiate calls, I
can send email to email to fax providers and deliver such email or PDF
as fax to a remote machine, so many European companies are using fax
and fax communication is physical, something that appears in the
office, it is not virtual like email. Fax paper is found physically
there and means more than something virtual.

> Also storing business information, generating invoices, etc.

Define workflow, then we can together define the database tables, then
you will be able to insert information quickly.

My website form workflow is following:

- by principle, I do not keep databases online, this is big no for me,
  my contacts are my contacts, I do not want such to be compromised.

- I have made LISP CGI on the web, so the information is received as
  LISP data, and encrypted by using PGP, there is less than 1 second
  that it could be compromised on the server by skilled programmer, by
  listening to memory events, it is not totally safe. I wish to
  replace this part with Emacs accepting inquiries online through CGI,
  it will work about the same.

- data arrives to me, it looks readable, as one part of data I made as
  Common Lisp comment, so I just click one key and data is inserted
  into CRM, thus the new contact is created offline in the database,
  rather then online in the online database, then I click reply, and
  can answer to the contact, emails sent and emails received are all
  stored in one ~/Maildir/swedebu...@riseup.net for that contact and I
  can at all times access all conversation between me and such
  contact. You could have seen that on video.

- then if the contact is in the mailing list, it will receive emails
  periodically or by specific periods, and that is the sales system
  and sales are taking place, I have sold for hundreds of thousands of
  dollars already.

Jean

WRS/CRM/ERP within Emacs - Re: Lisp

[Jean Louis]

* swedebugia  [2020-09-14 09:09]:
> Den Sun, 13 Sep 2020 14:09:30 +0300
> skrev Re: Lisp:
> 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > It is not in the simple configuration, it is in various files.
> > 
> > Which particular action you wish to review?
> 
> I'm interested in the SMS solution (do you use e.g. twilio?) and how
> you linked that together.

For SMS:

- I have used Twilio and I can also use local phone number

- For Twilio, only simple functions, I have posted it here:
  http://ix.io/2xCi -- those were working for me and still do. 

- For Termux functions it is here: http://ix.io/2xCj and many may not
  be related to SMS.

- If you enable F-Droid historical repositories in F-Droid, you may
  get Termux API application version 0.31 that one works with the
  current termux-api package, so that SMS can be sent, as Termux
  disallowed sending SMS due to Google rules, which is stupid, but you
  can still use older app version, not inside package version, if you
  get me. Then you can use termux-sms-send command.

- otherwise I have found application ShellMS, that one works well or
  better, it is in F-Droid

In background I am using the PostgreSQL database, first I have used
SugarCRM software, it was kind of fancy and well looking, but
definitely not reliable due to numerous new releases that broke the
older versions, then I have been using Gedafe or Generic Database
Frontend, https://gedafe.github.io/index.en.html -- it allowed me to
rapidly develop PostgreSQL tables for which I got immediate web
interface, and I have 195815 contacts. After some time I lost my
patience in clicking and waiting, so I have developed one by one
functions to replace my browser based workflow, and now I almost do
not need to use the browser. So access to my database goes through
Emacs now, even though it could be also through browser.

In general when there is need for relational data, I am using
relational database in the background. So I am using the excellent
module emacs-libpq https://github.com/anse1/emacs-libpq as since
upgrades of Emacs, those Emacs Lisp functions stopped working, but
module works without problems.

Database and Emacs I am using for all those functions that are common
in business, for Website Revision System, which means for editing,
organization and publishing of web pages, and it is all in the
database, then for Customer Relationship Management, which means
taking their profiles, accounts or groups where they belong, notes
about them, sending them information and tracking which information I
have sent, and I also use it for sales funnel systems, that may work
alone, for marketing, for business administration of anything, for
example I am managing basic profiles of mining sites and their
descriptions. 

Dolibarr seem nice, also other similar systems, yet I cannot agree
with some underlying principles:

- systems are normally written for remote servers. I do not agree that
  my data should be on remote servers, for example my contacts which
  are valuable should not be in the remote database. Databases can be
  compromised if they are online. One way one could distribute
  databases to other workers, without online public webserver is using
  Virtual Private Network, that way data going over Internet is
  encrypted, and database is not stored on public server. In general,
  sales process should be done in one office and not remotely as well,
  people risk with data so much today and I am not in agreement with
  such.

- systems like Dolibarr, look nice, but me as user I cannot easily
  extend them, this may not be general principle, it is because I did
  not write those programs, and then such programming is oriented also
  on Interface making, and I think interface shall be set before a
  function.

The Gedafe software is such a nice and good example. It asks the user
only to define the database table.

My contacts table may seem complex here: http://ix.io/2xCq and yet it
could be defined anyway one wants, then the Emacs interface to
database tables is same, I can edit any field or search for data, and
I am using Helm for that.

I think that first version was just based on SugarCRM:
http://ix.io/2xCr

Then if you wish I can help you to rapidly develop your database to
make it how you wish, and then you just invent your workflow and work
by the workflow.

> Also storing business information, generating invoices, etc.

For invoices there are tables:

- simpleinvoices, defining invoices

- addtosimpleinvoice, defining which products or services are added to
  simpleinvoices

- goodsandservices

The concept of SQL is shown here: http://ix.io/2xCt

I could export quickly all the empty tables, and those pre-filled
tables, you could import the database and then adjust to whatever you
think it should be, then you use those other functions that I am using
for search or editing and similar.

> I currently use Dolibarr in my business but I'm not that happy with the
> UI which involves A LOT of clicking.

It is interesting to talk 

Re: Lisp

[Jean Louis]

Hello,

It is not in the simple configuration, it is in various files.

Which particular action you wish to review?


* swedebugia  [2020-09-13 10:13]:
> Hi :)
> 
> On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 05:39:44 +0000
> Jean Louis  wrote:
> 
> > Myself, I like the extensibility of Emacs Lisp, it gives me
> > environment to handle almost all my business needs. In my opinion,
> > the years from 1980-2000 were interesting years, people were more
> > interested in programming and purchasing a computer brought many
> > people into programming. Especially in earlier years, computers were
> > delivered with books for programmnig languages. And I remember
> > companies were designating one person to learn and do whatever
> > software was necessary for the single company. I have seen those
> > companies, visited them and visited programmers, even when I was a
> > boy. They had output on the printer, there was no monitor for big
> > computers. I have seen accountants sitting late night and studying
> > the program and making new programs for invoices and other business
> > calculations. And I have worked with a teacher who programmed
> > anything necessary for pupils to learn better. Programming was in.
> > Almost everybody I knew at that time, including colleauges of my
> > parents, including teachers, and boys and girls who went into comput
> > club, was aware that anything we wanted, we could program ourselves.
> > Games were harder to do, yet we programmed even games, it was more
> > fun playing one's own game then commercial games. So I come from the
> > period of time which taught me that anything I need can be
> > programmed, so I do programming for me and my business myself.
> > 
> > Emacs Lisp offers me already the environment, like menues, it gives
> > me key functions, it gives me foundation, so I can extend it as I
> > wish, doing any possible business or private tasks, accounting
> > entries into database are conducted through Emacs for multiple
> > companies, projects and tasks are managed by Emacs, sending SMS and
> > receiving SMS recently I do by Emacs, all notes, SMS, faxes, emails
> > are recorded into database by using Emacs, and  I can extend it with
> > few minutes or hours as I wish. As everything is related to writnig,
> > Emacs Lisp becomes my best choice. All entries, all text is related
> > to text editing, so that is very proper to have as foundation or
> > environment that may be further extended and integrated with other
> > life and business tasks.
> > 
> > For example, in Dired file manager or directory editor, I just press
> > SUPER-M to mail the file or files to specific person, Emacs Lisp
> > function asks me for name of person, I choose one email among others,
> > and files are sent quickly, wthout launching separate software or
> > email reader. Similar integration is within Android or Replicant
> > operating systems. You can click on files and easier share them.
> > 
> > That is example, anything can be done and extending new functions to
> > well prepared foundation helps me in life.
> > 
> 
> I would love to read and get inspired by your emacs configuration. Is
> it shared publicly somewhere?
> 
> Cheers
> swedebugia

Re: Lisp

[Jean Louis]

There will be nice references from history of programming languages. If I am 
not mistaken LISP is the second programming language after FORTRAN, and many 
other programming languages have been derived from LISP.
Scheme, including Guile is derived from LISP, it is considered LISP dialect.

GNU Emacs has decades of development, its development started before many new 
programming languages that came to existence and became popular. Thus there are 
historical reasons for LISP. One need to review the history of LISP development 
and programming language developments to understand it all.

There are practical and programmatic reasons for LISP beside historical 
reasons. I am of opinion that programmatic reasons played the major role. 

Here is one reference for you:
http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/introduction-why-lisp.html

Here is more reasons for Emacs Lisp:
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/eintr/Why.html

Myself, I like the extensibility of Emacs Lisp, it gives me environment to 
handle almost all my business needs. In my opinion, the years from 1980-2000 
were interesting years, people were more interested in programming and 
purchasing a computer brought many people into programming. Especially in 
earlier years, computers were delivered with books for programmnig languages. 
And I remember companies were designating one person to learn and do whatever 
software was necessary for the single company. I have seen those companies, 
visited them and visited programmers, even when I was a boy. They had output on 
the printer, there was no monitor for big computers. I have seen accountants 
sitting late night and studying the program and making new programs for 
invoices and other business  calculations. And I have worked with a teacher who 
programmed anything necessary for pupils to learn better. Programming was in. 
Almost everybody I knew at that time, including colleauges of my parents, 
including teachers, and boys and girls who went into comput club, was aware 
that anything we wanted, we could program ourselves. Games were harder to do, 
yet we programmed even games, it was more fun playing one's own game then 
commercial games. So I come from the period of time which taught me that 
anything I need can be programmed, so I do programming for me and my business 
myself.

Emacs Lisp offers me already the environment, like menues, it gives me key 
functions, it gives me foundation, so I can extend it as I wish, doing any 
possible business or private tasks, accounting entries into database are 
conducted through Emacs for multiple companies, projects and tasks are managed 
by Emacs, sending SMS and receiving SMS recently I do by Emacs, all notes, SMS, 
faxes, emails are recorded into database by using Emacs, and  I can extend it 
with few minutes or hours as I wish. As everything is related to writnig, Emacs 
Lisp becomes my best choice. All entries, all text is related to text editing, 
so that is very proper to have as foundation or environment that may be further 
extended and integrated with other life and business tasks.

For example, in Dired file manager or directory editor, I just press SUPER-M to 
mail the file or files to specific person, Emacs Lisp function asks me for name 
of person, I choose one email among others, and files are sent quickly, wthout 
launching separate software or email reader. Similar integration is within 
Android or Replicant operating systems. You can click on files and easier share 
them.

That is example, anything can be done and extending new functions to well 
prepared foundation helps me in life.


Am July 9, 2020 12:58:02 AM UTC schrieb sergio hernandez 
:
>Hi people, I have a concern of the use of a language derived of scheme
>how
>Lisp or Guile. Why GNU uses this languages for develop many of the
>software
>like mcron, emacs, freetalk, etc?  Thanks for your answer.

Re: ExAmour

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman  [2020-06-24 06:57]:
> I understand now what an exokernel is.  Thanks.
> 
> How does this particular project relate to GNU?
> 
> Because an exokernel does only a small partof what an ordinary kernel
> does, an exokernel does not replace an ordinary kernel.

So far I know that is not a GNU project.

It was initiative or call for action by mailing list member
roba9...@gmail.com to make a kernel for GNU of those properties.

Jean

Re: ExAmour

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman  [2020-06-23 07:01]:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > https://github.com/remysaissy/examour-exokernel
> 
>   > >From what I understood It's an attempt to a GNU exokernel.
> 
> What would that mean?

>From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exokernel

Exokernel is an operating system kernel developed by the MIT Parallel
and Distributed Operating Systems group,[1] and also a class of
similar operating systems.

1. https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/exo/

Operating systems generally present hardware resources to applications
through high-level abstractions such as (virtual) file systems. The
idea behind exokernels is to force as few abstractions as possible on
application developers, enabling them to make as many decisions as
possible about hardware abstractions. Exokernels are tiny, since
functionality is limited to ensuring protection and multiplexing of
resources, which is considerably simpler than conventional
microkernels' implementation of message passing and monolithic
kernels' implementation of high-level abstractions.

Implemented applications are called library operating systems; they
may request specific memory addresses, disk blocks, etc. The kernel
only ensures that the requested resource is free, and the application
is allowed to access it. This low-level hardware access allows the
programmer to implement custom abstractions, and omit unnecessary
ones, most commonly to improve a program's performance. It also allows
programmers to choose what level of abstraction they want, high, or
low.

Exokernels can be seen as an application of the end-to-end principle
to operating systems, in that they do not force an application program
to layer its abstractions on top of other abstractions that were
designed with different requirements in mind. For example, in the MIT
Exokernel project, the Cheetah web server stores preformatted Internet
Protocol packets on the disk, the kernel provides safe access to the
disk by preventing unauthorized reading and writing, but how the disk
is abstracted is up to the application or the libraries the
application uses.

Re: An idea about an exo-kernel

[Jean Louis]

Hello,

I cannot access Twitter, can you send the article to mailing list?

Jean

* Ro Ba  [2020-06-20 06:35]:
> Hello, my name is Romeo. I support the free software ethics and hope they
> spread in the world.
> 
> With the premise that I barely know the basics of coding, and don't know
> how to help, I just wanted to share with you this idea that maybe sound
> crazy, but could be awesome. It implies the re-writing of the kernel to
> make it an exo-kernel.
> 
> Here is the little twitter thread I made about:
> https://twitter.com/Fox_Alive_/status/1257046927050407940?s=19
> 
> I know it's a poor idea but someone could find it interesting. I hope
> someone notices it and tries to develop and experiment a free software
> exo-kernel.
> 
> Thank you for your attention!

Re: RMS: users request you perhaps program HURD: they fear the path the linux kernel is going.

[Jean Louis]

For Microsoft I judge by previous pattern, fur example using GNU system in 
Windows and never calling it neither GNU neither putting attention to free 
software.

Pattern of users abuse increased over time at that company. I can't get away of 
my prejudices based on history.


On November 28, 2019 4:41:30 AM UTC, Nala Ginrut  wrote:
>
>Richard Stallman writes:
>
>> We should judge by what actually happens, not by prejudice.
>
>Agreed, my mistake.
>
>Best regards.

Re: RMS: users request you perhaps program HURD: they fear the path the linux kernel is going.

[Jean Louis]

* Nala Ginrut  [2019-11-20 09:03]:
> > Why Windows sucks:
> > https://itvision.altervista.org/why-windows-10-sucks.html
> 
> Yeah, I've shared this article in my last company, it's a good post.
> 
> Microsoft takes the honor of FOSS nowadays, everyone praise them just
> like they're leading the free software movement. And they're trying to get
> rid of free software, avoid to mention GNU & FSF, and credit to open
> source concept. Hmm...not a good manner, at least.
> 
> I have to say, it was in my anticipation, when they first time came to
> FOSS, but I didn't expect they change their face so fast. Nice job
> Microsoft!

I don't trust Microsoft anything. If they purchased Github, it was not
for reason to foster free software. It is apparent reason, why should
they be doing that. Let us think logical.

Most logical to me is that they have long term to kill Github just
like Google does with various competitive companies, please see
https://killedbygoogle.com/

Re: RMS: users request you perhaps program HURD: they fear the path the linux kernel is going.

[Jean Louis]

* Nala Ginrut  [2019-11-20 13:34]:
> > With BSD licenses you are not ensured to get the sources. Such BSD
> > software with sources is good, but if you get binaries under BSD
> > license, you have no idea what is going on, thus it is again sales of
> > poison, which Windoze systems are proving over and over again since
> > decades.
> 
> I know it is hard for certain people to understand GPL, however, I also
> failed to understand BSD. If somebody takes my code, and they can close
> it and sell it just like it is theirs, how can people accept that? Well, I
> feel there's a big gap between people's mind...

It is the attitude "do whatever you want with it".

GPL licensed software is more noble, it carries moral value and weight
with it, the attitude is something like "do whatever you want while
respecting free software".

> Microsoft takes the honor of FOSS nowadays, everyone praise them just
> like they're leading the free software movement. And they're trying to get
> rid of free software, avoid to mention GNU & FSF, and credit to open
> source concept. Hmm...not a good manner, at least.

That is my feeling too. 

Re: RMS: users request you perhaps program HURD: they fear the path the linux kernel is going.

[Jean Louis]

* Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-11-16 14:49]:
> 
> Alfred M. Szmidt  writes:
> 
> > I also don't think that shepherd is a better name, dmd far better
> > describes the intent Wolfgang and I had when we wrote and designed it.
> 
> It wasn’t our decision to rename dmd to shepherd.  I liked “dmd” too.
> 
> > Infact, most of the commands now make little sense...
> 
> Could you please elaborate?  They are just “herd
> {start|stop|restart|anything…}”.
> 
> --
> Ricardo

Here it is how it was renamed, Guix developers proposed it, Stallman
approved it:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2016-01/msg00274.html

Re: DMD / Pies

[Jean Louis]

* Svante Signell  [2019-11-16 04:41]:
> Hi Sergey,
> 
> If not being a replacement of sysvinit/openrc/shepherd/etc/ being PID1,
> how does your tool fit in, like s6, runit, ?
> 
> And don't elaborate about systemd, please
> 
> It is not mentioned at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Init

Sadly, it is not mentioned, I also wonder, Sergey does good
software. Somebody could update the Wikipedia page.

Jean

Re: RMS: users request you perhaps program HURD: they fear the path the linux kernel is going.

[Jean Louis]

* Alfred M. Szmidt  [2019-11-14 06:21]:
> 
>Le mercredi 13 novembre 2019, 19:23:43 CET Kete via Discussions about the 
>development of the GNU system a écrit :
>> I disagree that they betrayed RMS. I still like the Guix contributors,
>> probably even more now. Your systemd statement is confusing because they
>> made their own service program called shepherd.
> 
>To be precise, GNU Shepherd is the continuation of an old init software 
>originally called GNU DMD, written in Scheme, that was intended to provide 
>init system to the Hurd before Guix and systemd existed (and happened to 
>already provide some of the best features of systemd (like dependency 
>graph, parallelism, etc.)
> 
> GNU dmd was never intended for the Hurd, it was far more general in
> spirit.  One of the goals was that each user should be able to manage
> daemons, and give back some of the closed garden that is the init
> system.

> I also don't think that shepherd is a better name, dmd far better
> describes the intent Wolfgang and I had when we wrote and designed it.
> Infact, most of the commands now make little sense...

Alright, Shepherd changed and became Guix specific software. Maybe
they will make it better. One thing about Shepherd is that it is
lacking some justification. There are already good ways to start/stop
daemons, I don't know what shepherd is bringing other than that it is
GNU project. In my opinion it has been adopted for Guix only for being
GNU and Guile based project. Probably it was not Guile before.

In case of the service manager I would rather like to see technical
advantages over some others. 

GNU project has one other program invocation and execution supervisor,
that is pies:

Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 17:42:29 +0300
From: Sergey Poznyakoff 
To: info-...@gnu.org
Subject: pies-1.4 released [stable]
Organization: GNU.org.ua

Hello,

This is to announce the release of GNU pies version 1.4.

GNU pies (pronounced ``p-yes'') is a program invocation and execution
supervisor.  It starts and controls execution of external programs, making
it possible, in particular, to run in background programs that were not
designed to be run as daemons.  Pies configuration file allows administrator
to specify arbitrary actions to be executed upon program termination
(depending on its exit code or signal number it was terminated by).  It gives
administrators complete control over the execution environment of each
program.  This includes modifying shell environment, running programs with
the given user privileges, etc.  The standard error and/or standard
output of any component can be redirected either to a disk file or to syslog.

See the end of this message for a list of noteworthy changes in this version.

Here are the compressed sources:
  http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/pies/pies-1.4.tar.gz   (1.6MB)
  http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/pies/pies-1.4.tar.bz2  (1.2MB)

https://www.gnu.org/s/pies

GNU pies can also be used as init daemon — the first process started
during booting. The configuration can be supplied both as a
traditional /etc/inittab file or as a native GNU pies configuration
file, which gives much more flexibility. The control interface
provides extensive monitoring and management capabilities.

It has better syntax, and does not depend on Guile.

I do not have time now, but I would make GNU free system distribution
based on skarnet.org's small & secure supervision software
suite. Comes with an ultra-fast init replacement, process management
tools, an asynchronous locking library, and more.

That one has serious underlying justification and simplicity of use.

Shepherd does not. I do not know about pies.

Jean

Re: RMS: users request you perhaps program HURD: they fear the path the linux kernel is going.

[Jean Louis]

* Svante Signell  [2019-11-13 17:01]:
> On Wed, 2019-11-13 at 16:36 +0530, Jean Louis wrote:
> > 
> > It is time to make fully free FSF endorsed GNU/Hurd
> > distribution.
> 
> As you might know, Guix is working on to also support GNU/Hurd. Maybe you can
> make contributions there (in addition to Debian GNU/Hurd).

That is excellent and it is good for Western world users.

Yet Guix operating system has higher requirements, it is not operating
system for average user, especially not for people in third world
countries. While global perception is that Internet is everywhere, it
is not quite, and people in third world countries still use older
computers, Internet is very expensive or difficult to reach.

From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Guix#Guix_System_Distribution

Quote:

At the cost of greater storage requirements, all upgrades in Guix are
guaranteed to be both atomic and efficiently rolled back. This also
enables multiple users to safely install software on the same system
without administrator privileges. The extra storage requirements
translates to greater bandwidth usage when binary substitutes are
downloaded compared to distributions such as Debian. If the user
chooses to build everything from source even larger storage space and
bandwidth is required.

That is my experience, for simple upgrade, I had to spend considerable
amount of data, waiting time, and space on the hard disk. I think, but
not know for sure, that system like Guix SD cannot be used straight
from the DVD only, it requires Internet and downloading.

Operating system shall be self-contained, usable only from the DVD. I
hope I am wrong in case of Guix. My impression is that it depends on
Internet and thus it is only for people with Internet
connection. Majority of the world computing is still offline.

This may sound surprising for many. But that is the case in Rwanda,
Uganda, Tanzania, Kenya, Tanzania alone is like France and Germany
together, there are Internet points where Internet can be used and
there is Internet, but people are not connected. Majority of computers
are not connected to Internet. It is possible to use mobile data, but
that is very difficult with higher demands, and not reliable.

I do hope to get better fully free system distribution that can be
used straight from the DVD.

Even Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre that I am using now, cannot be
installed only from the DVD, not that I know. It required Internet. By
duplicating repositories or packages, I could spare Internet to
duplicate system on other computers, yet it is very difficult.

Jean

Re: RMS: users request you perhaps program HURD: they fear the path the linux kernel is going.

[Jean Louis]

* Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-11-13 02:32]:
> Hi,
> 
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 10:05:46 PM EET nipponm...@firemail.cc wrote:
> > RMS could do it. Alot of what is required in software is willpower to do
> > the work. RMS has such.
> That's not about RMS. This is a job for a few guys.

Surely, many projects are done by more people, that is nature of
society and also software projects. People join

Yet I understand it when person said it is willpower that drives it.

Several operating systems have been made by single person. I don't say
it is best to do so, but those are willpower driven projects, and
later community joins.

What Samuel Thibault is doing now with Hurd is evidence of willpower.

Minix was made by Professor Tannenbaum. Minix 2.0 worked well and I
remember using it. Now there is Minix 3 as full operating system.

We shall not underestimate the willpower of human beings.

Re: RMS: users request you perhaps program HURD: they fear the path the linux kernel is going.

[Jean Louis]

* Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-11-12 14:14]:
> however, if we're going to speak about GNU system we're limited with a few 
> components:
>  - GNU userland - ok it exists
>  - GNU toolchain - yep it works
>  - GNU kernel/system services - ... nope
> I know linux kernel just works, but it's not a GNU project.

Software need not be GNU project to be part of GNU. A purely GNU
system includes, by definition, non-GNU packages:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2019-11/msg00356.html
https://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.html

Quote from GNU Manifesto:

"When the kernel and compiler are finished, it will be possible to
distribute a GNU system suitable for program development. We will use
TeX as our text formatter, but an nroff is being worked on. We will
use the free, portable X Window System as well."

GNU/Linux-libre is GNU project. Please see:
https://www.gnu.org/s/linux-libre

Thus GNU has the kernel Linux-libre, and Hurd, and other kernels could
become GNU project.

GNU system was not envisioned to be purely GNU system from its
inception. 

Jean

Re: Coreboot vs Libreboot - GNU: Please use Coreboot without the blobs (compile time option). - Why the [edits]?

[Jean Louis]

* gameonli...@redchan.it  [2019-11-07 05:18]:
> The man is no[w] a eunich is what I ment to type. I did type it later in the
> post. My definition is the anti-american definition.

GNU project is about free software and is welcoming everybody. Please
respect people.

> Men are men. Women are women. Women who cannot have children are broken
> women. Men with their genitals sawn off (with proof posted to their own
> website) are Euniches.

Please respect people. I do not share your opinion and those opinions
do not matter for GNU project, contributions are welcome from
everybody.

Do you have some constructive proposal how to help GNU? See here what
is needed and wanted: https://www.gnu.org/help/help.en.html

Jean

Re: Coreboot vs Libreboot - GNU: Please use Coreboot without the blobs (compile time option). - Local politics in Software

[Jean Louis]

* gameonli...@redchan.it  [2019-11-07 03:33]:
> If they are able to call for RMS' removal from his OWN project (and yes: GNU
> is _his_ project), and they have threads on this that go on for centuries on
> -devel lists, and this is fine (it is seen as fine), then they have already
> opened the door.

It is my impression that public shamings on his own GNU project is
tolerated by RMS for the reasons as explained here:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

Purpose

The GNU Project encourages contributions from anyone who wishes to
advance the development of the GNU system, regardless of gender, race,
ethnic group, physical appearance, religion, cultural background, and
any other demographic characteristics, as well as personal political
views...

RMS fighted for free software for decades and he is the one sticking
to those GNU Kind Communication Guidelines better than each of
us. That is why there is so much tolerance.

It is my personal opinion and not any kind of representation of
GNU/RMS viewpoints, that purpose of creating more free software is
more important than the public shamings page that Guix leaders have
published, and so no harsh actions have been imposed.

Somebody else would not be as RMS, somebody else, of a different
character could easily sue them for defamation and bring them to
court, which would ruin the Guix project and probably cause a
political fork of it which is not wanted condition.

To make those management decisions is not easy task. One has to
carefully weigh the good and bad that is created by Guix, and as of
now, in my opinion, there is more good than bad, finally, public
opinion of their Guix' public shamings page is disapproving their
statements, and RMS is not guilty of any crime.

I could say that there is no perfect marriage and divorces could be
costly.

Re: Coreboot vs Libreboot - GNU: Please use Coreboot without the blobs (compile time option). - Why the [edits]?

[Jean Louis]

* gameonli...@redchan.it  [2019-11-07 03:22]:
> Why did you edit my words of he (the libreboot maintain is a man: who had

Those types of descriptions of people's bodies are not subject of GNU
project. That is hurting those who are going difficult times, even if
they don't, mentioning somebody's private life issues is simply not
welcome in civilized world.

Your writings made me very sad. It is not relevant for anything
related to GNU. GNU project is welcoming everybody. Please do not
publicly shame a person on these mailing lists. It is official stance
of GNU project not to discriminate against everybody.

Purpose is to encourage more contributions:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

Quote:

The GNU Project encourages contributions from anyone who wishes to
advance the development of the GNU system, regardless of gender, race,
ethnic group, physical appearance, religion, cultural background, and
any other demographic characteristics, as well as personal political
views.

People are sometimes discouraged from participating in GNU development
because of certain patterns of communication that strike them as
unfriendly, unwelcoming, rejecting, or harsh. This discouragement
particularly affects members of disprivileged demographics, but it is
not limited to them. Therefore, we ask all contributors to make a
conscious effort, in GNU Project discussions, to communicate in ways
that avoid that outcome—to avoid practices that will predictably and
unnecessarily risk putting some contributors off.

Re: Why don't gnu.org and RMS sign mail? - FDE Crypto

[Jean Louis]

* Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> [2019-11-05 19:58]:
> Alexandre François Garreau  wrote:
> > [0] within the current state of affairs, and FSF long having been on lower  
> > freedom and moral standards than GNU
> 
> Could you please elaborate this.

Good that you ask him Dmitry, as generalizations with accusations do
not have social use, other but fears, uncertainties and doubts.

To say that "FSF long have been on lower freedom and moral standards
than GNU" is total absurd.

I suggest taking some magnesium for muscle relaxation and watching a
good comedy than putting attention on it.

Jean

Re: Will RMS be back to Programming now?

[Jean Louis]

* Nala Ginrut  [2019-11-05 17:03]:
> 
> Seriously, if RMS can do some small coding work with existing GNU packages 
> occasionally,
> maybe it's a good chance for advocating the package.
> The famous people attracts more eyes, even if some people don't like
> him.

> But I'm not sure if his current status is suitable for that advocating
> work.

Nala, how are you?

In my opinion, RMS's most important work are speeches and relations.

Today, when GNU systems already exist in the world, general software
is not any more priority. There are priorities for specific software
like those for video communication or liberating BIOSes, or liberating
phones with free systems and so on.

I see it most important to spread free software philosophy. Now is not
that much of fight to make free operating system, but there is still a
work to enlighten those areas of the world where free software is not
known. Where people need to understand about users' rights and
freedom.

Stallman is respected world wide. Nothing of those comments and media
rumors is changing it. Majority of people of today are finally not
that stupid, celebrities are always targets of rumors, it does not
change anything. Who said what... who cares really.

Most important work for Stallman now are his connections to various
opinion leaders and closing (in sales terminology) parties to more
freedom for users.

Dr. Richard Stallman contacts opinion leaders and forwards free software:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/

In that case, he did advocacy to Microsoft to teach him to straighten
policies on licenses in Github.com -- makes sense, many developers are
placing vague licenses, or missing a license, or release it as
apparently free software but restrict it to religious sense to use it
only for "good purposes" as given by God, thus rendering it
non-free. There are many issues with the Github, so his points were
totally valid. That is advocacy for free software.

He starts from the head, not from the tail.

Now you can imagine, not everybody can walk into Microsoft and speak
about free software. Stallman can do that. That is position of power
and position of a lot of connection, respect and honor, it is all
based on previous work.

He teaches the world on free software:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCh8EcBrptA

Dr. Richard Stallman provides policies and planning for GNU project,
and he has done so successfuly for many years, and he still does,
nothing changed. His status or position did not change.

Not being president of the FSF in my opinion does not change anything,
FSF is loyal to free software philosophy and continues its work just
as usual.

No strategy changed neither for FSF nor GNU. There is nothing that
changed direction of the FSF or its purposes or goals.

RMS did not change his attitude not even towards those few people from
Guix leadership and other members of their Thoughtpolice Squad[1] who
did everything possible to defame and slander him.

RMS makes advocacy on much higher level and he always did so, since
the inception of the GNU project. He need not advocate a simple piece
of software. Creation of GPL caused whole range of free software to
existence. At the time it was not possible for Stallman to know that
could or would happen. But effect is more than good. Now people and
companies are releasing software under the GPL license without even
knowing who is Stallman or what was his fundamental work.

I hope you got the idea of the type of the fundamental work that RMS
have always been doing and is still doing today.

Jean

Footnotes:
[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtpolice

Re: Why don't gnu.org and RMS sign mail? - FDE Crypto

[Jean Louis]

* Florian Weimer  [2019-11-05 09:08]:
> * nipponmail:
> 
> > Getting GNU/Linux onto a laptop these days is quite the difficulty if 
> > you don't know what you're doing because of Secure Boot. It's not a plug 
> > and play thing like once it was. Probably discourages alot of users.
> 
> Sure, and that was totally predictable.  But what can we do when
> *everyone*, including the FSF, supports Secure Boot?

It is unclear what you mean with "FSF supports Secure Boot" as FSF is
doing campaign on the subject of Restricted Boot. 

Please see the campaign to petition computer makers:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statement/stand-up-for-your-freedom-to-install-free-software

Official position of FSF on the Restricted Boot is here:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/whitepaper-web

Join and sign the statement against Restricted Boot:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/


Jean

Re: Why don't gnu.org and RMS sign mail? - FDE Crypto

[Jean Louis]

* gameonli...@redchan.it  [2019-11-04 14:05]:
> Windows is required to disable the trusted computing locks in Most new
> laptops. Other than windows there are only a few signed operating systems
> that can be installed without disabling said locks, and they are signed by
> microsoft.

That is sad situation. Then is best way not to buy Intel chips and
find hardware that respects users' rights.

Look here how Purism, company behind the PureOS, one of the FSF
endorsed fully free system distributions is disabling the Intel
management engine:

https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3019569/purism-disables-intels-management-engine-on-linux-powered-laptops
https://puri.sm/learn/avoiding-intel-amt/

Dr. Stallman was warning about it: https://stallman.org/intel.html

https://www.fsf.org/blogs/sysadmin/the-management-engine-an-attack-on-computer-users-freedom

> Stating that women dominate men in America is not hatred, it is fact. But
> they are our superiors so we can say nothing against them. Notice that Hans
> Reiser is in prison? Notice that anyone who tried to marry girls is in
> prison with him.

We don't discuss those subjects here. That is not related to systems
and GNU.

Re: Why don't gnu.org and RMS sign mail? - FDE Crypto

[Jean Louis]

* gameonli...@redchan.it  [2019-11-04 12:25]:
> Debian / Devuan installation is very quick and straight-forward, and the
> package vrms (inspired by rms) allows one to check if one has non-free
> packages. You can set up the full disk encryption off the bat there.

In Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre there is package: your-freedom that
conflicts with every non-free package and insecure package.

> (I like Devuan for it's non-systemd options: that way you can strip the
> system down to only the tasks you want it to do and no others, perhaps a
> strict libre version could be made some day (systemd is the reason I don't
> use trisquel, though I like the community etc; I don't wish to use brand-new
> bug-filled system software that's 10 years till maturity etc, and does
> things I don't want it to do))

Could you invite Devuan to apply as fully free system distribution so
that it can ge endorsed by the FSF?

See here:
https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html

> On UEiF (or whatever it's called) systems first you have to use windows to
> allow legacy boot, if you don't then you never can (can't do it from the
> bios); to get to that option you have to change windows S to windows-normal,
> which involves registering with microsoft (right now you can use a throw
> away email). (They can remove these options in the future and lock
> you in).

I think that works without using proprietary systems. Using Windows to
install GNU system is not recommended, how do you know what is really
going on there. Reason for using free software is certain trust, which
I cannot attribute to Windows proprietary stuff.

Many various GNU/Linux systems can be installed on UEFI interface
specifications. Look at Debian Wiki here:
https://wiki.debian.org/UEFI

I am using Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre which is fully free
distribution. Look https://www.hyperbola.info/ and there is some
instructions for UEFI systems:
https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:guide:installation and
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface

Try looking into those links, it is possible to install over UEFI
systems without windows.

> Also all Intel processors contain spyware in the form of a mutilated
> Minix-running baseband type processor which can exfiltrate the
> entire contents of your ram at any time (and thus your crypto
> key). You cannot ever turn it off. (But you know this).

My impression is that those issues could have been eliminated and that
it is not danger if one uses latest kernels. It is possible to disable
it.

> Most Proud Americans absolutely support these spy systems to catch,
> jail, and torture-in-prison male paedophiles who like girls. They
> feel it should be extensively used, and salivate at the idea of
> being the Bubba. When not doing such they program military systems
> to slaughter muslims for similar crimes, if not manning said systems
> themselves.

I understand that outside of US there is a lot of anti-US or
anti-American propaganda, and while myself I do not live in US, I do
not approve of that, as generalizations don't help, generalizations
are meant to provoke and incite more and more hate.

We are in GNU community striving to be kind to each other, especially
that GNU is planetary system, one shall not use this mailing list for
political opinions as such would be dividing people.

Further, I do not feel your statement is true, not at all, it looks as
fabricated thoughtless anti-American propaganda spread in some
countries. 

> Americans love their Trusted Management Engine. It manages the males and
> keeps the Queens on top: as their species demands.

That is hatred, there is no place for that in the discussion.

The management engine belongs to certain company, I think Intel, and
while Intel is based in USA, to what you refer as "America", that does
not mean that Americans love their trusted management engine. Such
remarks are vague, generalized, not specific, emotional.

In my opinion you have been exposed to hateful propaganda. Please
think about that. I would advise associating with some Americans face
to face , for example make some chocolate cakes together and share
recipes. Or jump into a pool together.

Jean

Re: Why don't gnu.org and RMS sign mail? (was: Testing new mail server)

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman  [2019-11-02 03:24]:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > Somebody can make your settings such that you do not need to enter
>   > passphrase, it would be kept in the file or provided as a string on
>   > command line.
> 
>   > --passphrase-file file
> 
> Thanks, but I really do not want to have my passphrase stored in a file
> on my computer.

My /home and /tmp and swap are always encrypted upon boot, and I
decrypt it manually, not automatically.

If computer is stolen, all information is encrypted, while encrypted
backups are stored at other places.

For security, if computer is turned on, and I am not in the room, the
room is always closed.

But if I die suddenly, nobody would get access into important
information, unless I leave a write-up how to access such.

Jean

Re: Why don�Š�¼t gnu.org and RMS sign mail?

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman  [2019-11-01 15:31]:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
> Yes, that problem in Emacs -- which I gave up on trying to debug -- is
> part of the obstacle.
> 
> Do you want to try to fix the problem?  I don't know whether you
> already work on Emacs Lisp code.

If that is the passphrase issue, I have just made this test and places
following into ~/.gnupg/gpg.conf

batch
passphrase MY-PASSPHRASE-HERE
pinentry-mode loopback

And I could encrypt file, and then decrypt it without being asked for
passphrase. Before that I have killed gpg-agent from memory.

Then I have file-finded ~/file.gpg within emacs -Q and it just
decrypted the file into memory.

Then I have encrypted the region with M-x epa-encrypt-region and then
again decrypted it. I was not asked for passphrase.

I can just guess that it shall work in Rmail the same way if you setup
passphrase directly in the ~/.gnupg/gpg.conf

Jean

Re: (Censored) Why will no-one sue GrSecurity for their blatant GPL violation (of GCC and the linux kernel)?

[Jean Louis]

* gameonli...@redchan.it  [2019-11-01 00:03]:
> I tried to send this to the list, but it was dropped as spam, which is no
> surprise since the some want to screen communications to RMS and thus
> control him.

... cut...

> Wouldn't the FSF have standing regarding the GCC plugins atleast?
> Couldn't you all rally linux-kernel copyright holders to bring a joint
> action?
> 
> References:
> perens.com/2017/06/28/warning-grsecurity-potential-contributory-infringement-risk-for-customers/
> 
> perens.com/static/OSS_Spenger_v_Perens/0_2018cv15189/docs1/pdf/18.pdf
> (Page 10 onward of this brief gives a good recitation of the facts and
> issues

Recommended reads:

Enforcing the GNU GPL by Eben Moglen
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/enforcing-gpl.html

and

The Principles of Community-Oriented GPL Enforcement by Joshua Gay
https://www.fsf.org/licensing/enforcement-principles

Jean

Re: Why don�¼t gnu.org and RMS sign mail? (was: Testing new mail server)

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman  [2019-11-01 03:22]:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
> I can't use GPG agent.  The reasons are long and complex.

Somebody can make your settings such that you do not need to enter
passphrase, it would be kept in the file or provided as a string on
command line.

--passphrase-file file

Read the passphrase from file file. Only the first line will be read
from file file. This can only be used if only one passphrase is
supplied.  Obviously, a passphrase stored in a file is of questionable
security if other users can read this file. Don't use this option if
you can avoid it.

Note that since Version 2.0 this passphrase is only used if the option
--batch has also been given.  Since Version 2.1 the --pinentry-mode
also needs to be set to loopback.

--passphrase string

Use string as the passphrase. This can only be used if only one
passphrase is supplied. Obviously, this is of very question‐ able
security on a multi-user system. Don't use this option if you can
avoid it.

Note that since Version 2.0 this passphrase is only used if the option
--batch has also been given.  Since Version 2.1 the --pinentry-mode
also needs to be set to loopback.

Re: Why donʼt gnu.org and RMS sign mail? (was: Testing new mail server)

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman  [2019-10-31 03:11]:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
> I never sign my email.  It would require typing my passphrase,
> which is rather long, each time.

The GPG Agent can cache the passphrase for long time.

Re: systemd replacement or standardization

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman  [2019-10-21 22:43]:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > I would call projects like IceWM window manager to become GNU project,
>   > IceWM is one of fastest window managers, those maintainers could get
>   > some donation and move it into GNU. Then there is nice and small GNU
>   > Desktop. Why not?
> 
> The first question is, would they like that?  Are they interested?
> 
> Do they say anything about GNU?  If so, what attitude do they
> display?

As of now, their answer is that they think that there is more work
than benefit.

Example answer:

I too think that it is more work than benefit. (I have been around long enough 
to see the Savannah project be born and die.)

Looking at the others' responses, I think that the answer is no.

I am not surprised that you got no response from Marko: I started this
fork because Marko would not respond to support requests nor
incorporate patches. Understandable, though: I hear he is a Submarine
Captain in the US Navy. We are thankful for all his efforts to create
a worthy window manager and influence the GNOME/WMH specification.

From:
https://github.com/bbidulock/icewm/issues/391

I am proposing to you that we campaign to attract various software
pieces. It is teaching developers what is free software movement, many
do not know, but just program.

I have given to them reference on how to apply, but that seems
unlikely.

Maybe you can suggest what benefits they are getting?

IceWM is great Window Manager which makes in my opinion a complete
desktop workspace. It is fast.

Jean

Re: systemd replacement or standardization

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman  [2019-10-18 08:48]:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > I would call projects like IceWM window manager to become GNU project,
>   > IceWM is one of fastest window managers, those maintainers could get
>   > some donation and move it into GNU. Then there is nice and small GNU
>   > Desktop. Why not?
> 
> The first question is, would they like that?  Are they interested?
> 
> Do they say anything about GNU?  If so, what attitude do they
> display?

We will see that. I am asking them.

As people who are only technically focused to develop software may not
understand what free software philosophy is or GNU project and may
need an incentive or a call to join GNU project.

Jean

Re: (Really) Free Software future

[Jean Louis]

* Alfred M. Szmidt  [2019-10-17 00:10]:
>systemd binaries are dependent on systemd and replaces programs that
>did not have such dependencies. It is creating similar situation as
>vendor lock-in is creating.
> 
> That is the case with any system, things depend on things -- what is
> important is not to depend on non-free software.

Analogy is there Alfred. It cannot be ignored.

Why did Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre remove many "free software" packages
from its distribution but for reason that they are somehow infringing
on users' rights?

For example free software project could promote Facebook proprietary
network. Such would probably be removed from Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre
where I find that maintainers do take care of users' freedom.

In similar manner systemd is is making users be controlled by systemd
maintainers.

Jean

Re: (html emails) Re: systemd replacement or standardization

[Jean Louis]

* Alfred M. Szmidt  [2019-10-17 00:11]:
>>Emacs alone cannot handle emails as fast as I wish it should. It is
>>good for smaller volumes.
>> 
>> I think it handles large volumes immensly well, only today I had to go
>> through about 300 messages.
> 
>Which package do you use?
> 
> I use rmail.

It is nice and simple. I use it only sometimes. But I do use Emacs for
sending emails, then I move emails to Maildirs.

Jean

Re: systemd replacement or standardization

[Jean Louis]

* marinus.savorit...@tuta.io  [2019-10-17 00:00]:
> GNOME used to be compiled with Autotools from the GNU project.
> Now it is based on meson.
> https://mesonbuild.com/index.html 
> Iniative:
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/GnomeGoals/MesonPorting
> 

Well I understand that projects change throughout the time.

I do not see that as any kind of loss any more, as GNU free operating
system is in its existence in many various GNU/Linux distributions and
some others based on other kernels.

I would call projects like IceWM window manager to become GNU project,
IceWM is one of fastest window managers, those maintainers could get
some donation and move it into GNU. Then there is nice and small "GNU
Desktop". Why not?

There could be many various GNU projects if programmers would be moved
to GNU and given some kind of support like web hosting and official
promotion and maybe some donations from FSF.

Jean

Re: (html emails) Re: systemd replacement or standardization

[Jean Louis]

* Alfred M. Szmidt  [2019-10-16 02:33]:
>Emacs alone cannot handle emails as fast as I wish it should. It is
>good for smaller volumes.
> 
> I think it handles large volumes immensly well, only today I had to go
> through about 300 messages.

Which package do you use?

When I have set Gnus for maildir access with 48000+ subfolders, it
could not even finish its initialization, it was running 2 days, and
duplicating stuff in the manner out of any standard of using
maildirs. For maildirs it is broken.

Jean

Re: Thoughts on the Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

Good article to read:
https://medium.com/@tossing.bark/remove-stallman-you-say-and-everyone-else-horrible-in-tech-fd4b1446b0a1

whereby the article really have relevance to the defaming statement
from Guix pages.

More facts on what happened:

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

See:
My Thoughts on the Richard Stallman "Scandal" by Jacob
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

How does Dr. Richard Stallman lead GNU Project?

Dr. Richard Stallman contacts opinion leaders and forwards free software:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/

He teaches the world on free software:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCh8EcBrptA

Dr. Richard Stallman provides policies and planning for GNU project, and he has 
done so successfuly for many years.

And Minsky is not guilty, finally accusing dead person is disgraceful:
https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/339725/

I would not be writing all this, would there be some official
statement on FSF or GNU websites.

Jean



* Stefan Huchler  [2019-10-16 02:33]:
> > Selam G is a frantic person who misunderstood my words.  Perhaps she
> > did not know the meaning of the expression, present oneself as and
> > equated it to be.  Her moral fault was being too quick to demonize
> > and attack.
> 
> I don't get how that could be true. Because:
> 
> 1. I didn't hear from that person apologies for her mistake, I also
> think the site where the non true statements were made is still up. She
> had plenty of time and probably got plenty of messages from people that
> noticed her that her statement wasn't true.
> 
> 2. her hitpeace is written in as far as I remember descent english, and
> present oneself as is no weird saying that foreigners (me included)
> don't get because it has a hidden meaning or comes from some historical
> event that only in context makes sense.
> 
> It's just easy english words you learn in each basic english
> course. maybe oneself is a bit unusual compound-word but one and self
> are easy words and I don't see how anybody could misunderstand that
> without purposfully play dumb.
> 
> I understand that you gain nothing from attacking them, but America had
> the McCartyism era and to much people said nothing in the end people
> landed in Prison and others died.
> 
> The question is what you could actively do about it, like suing people
> or something but I would suggest at least not to white knight people
> that tried to destroy you and partially did hurt you.
> 
> I am sorry if that is pretentious, but a unfair unjust attack with lies
> against you that forces you to step down from functions and not longer
> participate in some activities because of that, hurts the free software
> movement and it's users, too.
> 
> 
> greetings and thanks for your centuries of great work so far!

Re: (html emails) Re: systemd replacement or standardization

[Jean Louis]

* Alfred M. Szmidt  [2019-10-16 02:30]:
>Emacs alone cannot handle emails as fast as I wish it should. It is
>good for smaller volumes.
> 
> I think it handles large volumes immensly well, only today I had to go
> through about 300 messages.

To tell specifics from my side, I am using maildirs and not mbox or
Rmail or other single file formats, and when I have tried using Gnus
with maildirs, it started creating huge new index of maildirs
duplicating the maildir sizes from many gigabytes to double amount,
and process never ended. Thus my specific case does not refer to
mboxes.

Rmail is quite usable and nice, Gnus is probably too, it is just not
good for my specific case of using Maildirs.

Other mail packages are also nice, I think Wanderlust (if not mistaken
by name) is supporting various folders, yet I don't have same speed as
using mutt. I wish there would be some solution, I did not find it
yet.

maildir package in elpa is about almost there to support maildirs,
sometimes I use it, but is incomplete.

Jean

Re: (Really) Free Software future

[Jean Louis]

* Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-10-16 07:26]:
> > Free Software should be community developed. There is no problem for
> > companies to contribute but they absolutely should not be the the driven
> > factor. Otherwise we have an hostile solution to forks like Systemd.
> 
> I'm afraid, but in a wildlife most of the big opensource projects are 
> supported by the companies. And that is might be ok.

If I may add what shall be already well known, "open source" is not
free software philosophy.

Philosophy of "open source" is quite different and was quite different
when the group started forming itself.

Pushing and promoting free software philosophy and user rights will
have and has way greater impact and is way more beneficial to society,
than pushing and promoting software alone in itself as open source is
doing.

Even using the term "open source" is not adequate, as then public get
misunderstood words, and never finds out what is free software
philosophy.

Jean

Re: (Really) Free Software future

[Jean Louis]

* Svante Signell  [2019-10-16 02:23]:
> On Mon, 2019-10-14 at 22:41 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
> > 
> > If systemD is be hard to replace, that is a kind of lock-in.  But it
> > isn't _vendor_ lock-in.  systemD, like most free software packages,
> > is not tied to any particular vendor.  Indeed, the usual concept of
> > vendor for free software is not applicable to free software at all.
> 
> Sorry Richard, but it is really a vendor lock-in. As you know there is
> only one _upstream_ of systemd and that upstream is a company. Systemd
> software is developed by that company, and as you also know is that
> contributions, patches and bug reports coming from outside that company
> are frown upon. People reporting issues are even met with hostility.

systemd binaries are dependent on systemd and replaces programs that
did not have such dependencies. It is creating similar situation as
vendor lock-in is creating.

Some references:

- https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/

- http://judecnelson.blogspot.com/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html

- https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/

- https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2016/05/18/systemd-it-keeps-getting-worse/
  where it says: "One of systemd’s main goals is to unify basic Linux
  configurations and service behaviors across all distributions."

There is my personal protest against the systemd's LGPL license. It is
service manager and not a special library that shall sacrifice freedom
in special cases.

Issue with the LGPL license is that me personally, for GNU system, I
would prefer GPL only license and not LGPL allowing proprietary
software into free software system distributions.

systemd does create control of few developers of systemd and vendors
of various GNU/Linux operating systems over its users.

systemd does create situation as "programmers controlling computing"
and not "users having freedom in their own computer".

That GNOME requires systemd is sad situation, it shall be independnet
of service manager.

Jean

Re: systemd replacement or standardization

[Jean Louis]

* marinus.savorit...@tuta.io  [2019-10-16 01:56]:
> > In my opinion Gnome shall remain independent of the supervisor type.
> >
> I wasn't talking about bringing GNOME under control of GNU. I am talking 
> about integrating with GNU technology. 
> Build system, Init, service manager and so on. When and if they are
> developed.

It is already integrated in various free software distributions. Which
one are you using?

Is it not integrated in yours?

> > On Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre there is no systemd, and there is still
> > Gnome, it works fine.
> >
> Sure it works fine. But that wasn't the point I was making. How much effort 
> does it take for GNOME to work fine if you don't have Systemd?
> In Gentoo they had a hell of a time to make it work without Systemd
> and Guix doesn't have the latest version exactly yet.

I understand it is about cooperation between communities, one
community is tending to support only systemd.

> > The time of GNU as sole operating system is already for decades
> > over. The idea of Dr. Richard Stallman to build a new free software
> > operating system was realized practically for many people back in time
> > when somebody used Linux kernel and distributed first GNU distribution
> > with it. Then when GNU Hurd was not as practical and usable, Linux
> > within GNU became practical and usable.
> >
> > Now there are many various GNU distributions, each can decide which
> > software to use. The distinction became blurry.
> >
> I think that points to a larger problem. As of right now we have a
> lot of alternatives to various packages that are getting
> traction. Nobody is eager to join the GNU project. Person or
> project.

I see it as unfolded flower. Richard Stallman envisioned GNU operating
system as a single leaf, it unfolded into bush of flowers. There are
now many free software political groups promoting free software
philosophy and many various GNU versions of free operating system.

It changed over time, there is not one uniqu GNU alone for
itself, system.

Maybe some recruitment is necessary to hire new software packages and
to basically ask for new GNU involved projects, that is up to GNU and
FSF to invite people for those software packages that are necessary
for future, like for example replacements for Skype and similar.

> I have been doing some reading on GNU the last few days. Seeing the
> packages. Going through mailing lists. Outside of GUIX and their
> packages and GIMP there aren't that many active projects.

Then I am sorry I do not know what you mean, for me the statement
above is way too general.

Look:
https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/gnu-spotlight-with-mike-gerwitz-14-new-gnu-releases-in-september

> For some reason we can't attract contributors.

Instead of general statement, why not say which software requires
contributors in particular?

> Now I have seen from Linux forums (Phoronix, Gentoo) that people are
> trying to move away from GNU. Or they don't even know it exists.

Could you please give specific link instead of making it general
statement?

You are also free to introduce "Linux" forum users to what free
software philosophy really is, as many users do not know about it. 

> To keep it short I don't think that other people have better tech
> necessarily.

Question is not what is better, but if users are given rights as
envisioned by free software philosophy. 

> I think GNU doesn't have contributors. And can't attract new
> ones. And that is not because people are not coders or they don't
> want Free Software.

Well that sounds to me as depressive useless statement. How many GNU
mailing lists are you subscribed to?

> > It is in most free software distributions already. Did you try it?
> >
> You mean GNOME right? GNOME has removed GNU from the name since a long time 
> now.
> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2010-April/msg00050.html 
> 
> I have used seemed pleasant to use, good tech.

OK fine, but name or not name it is free software.

Richard Stallman have burried few seeds, and he is still placing it
all over the world, and now we have bushes of flowers everywhere and
plants growing in gardens, and each flower is free to smell and have
various flavours.

> The community when I started getting involved with GNOME pushed me
> away. I don't like the culture.

I am sorry, but generalized statement are not useful, they give
appearance of negativity. When lacking facts generalized statements
create Fear, Uncertainty and Doubts = FUD. That does not help.

If you have some particular constructive proposal, that would be good
to propose.

> > Which one do you use?
> >
> I am starting to get involved in KDE. After I read about their community and 
> their Guidelines, I liked the culture. 
> I actually proposed a KDE goal this year and it was picked as a focused. 
> They seem much more open to peoples need and recieving feedback.

Which free software operating system 

Re: systemd replacement or standardization

[Jean Louis]

* marinus.savorit...@tuta.io  [2019-10-15 22:38]:
> So since we have GNU Shepherd and it will keep being developed why
> don't we ask GNOME on their stance?

In my opinion Gnome shall remain independent of the supervisor type.

In my opinion s6 and s6-rc is better, logical and more powerful
system for service management, see: http://skarnet.org/software/

And I have used it for quite some time, now using Hyperbola
GNU/Linux-libre https://www.hyperbola.info which is using OpenRC, not
bad, functional.

Well the service management is good when it "just works", easy to
setup, start, stop services, define run level.

I would like using GNU Shepherd, but now only Guix is using it and
using Guix is bloated, it asks user to download bunch of packages for
any version of the system, it compiles way too much, it is not a
system for average users and certainly not for those located in
countries with more expensive bandwidth.

> By that I mean, GNOME has moved away from GNU build tools and
> requires Systemd (I aknowldge you can replace it with forks but
> still). I remember reading about a discussion to remove the acronym
> too.

On Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre there is no systemd, and there is still
Gnome, it works fine.

> So in my opinion, we should reevaluate whether GNOME is a part of
> GNU and how open are they to reintegrate to GNU if the right tools
> are developed. If not, there are plenty of environments which are
> open and were open in the past to not be tied to one
> technology. XFCE,KDE etc.

There is not one single GNU operating system, so there are free system
distributions and their maintainers decide how and which software to
include.

Gnome is one part of the system and it does exist and is already
implemented in free software distributions.

The time of GNU as "sole" operating system is already for decades
over. The idea of Dr. Richard Stallman to build a new free software
operating system was realized practically for many people back in time
when somebody used Linux kernel and distributed first GNU distribution
with it. Then when GNU Hurd was not as practical and usable, Linux
within GNU became practical and usable.

Now there are many various GNU distributions, each can decide which
software to use. The distinction became blurry.

> The GNU desktop environment should be integrated with GNU in my
> opinion.

It is in most free software distributions already. Did you try it?

Which one do you use?

Jean

(html emails) Re: systemd replacement or standardization

[Jean Louis]

* Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-10-15 23:37]:
> Hi,
> 
> firstly I kindly ask you to send a plain text emails without html.

I am using mutt E-mail client, http://www.mutt.org/ and it reads both
HTML and plain text, I think it is most efficient.

It runs very well inside the Emacs and I am using vterm module
https://github.com/akermu/emacs-libvterm which was little better than
ansi-term terminal emulation. It works even more cleaner under XTerm.

Mutt works fastest for any handling of emails, and I have tried all
mail clients.

In my opinion mutt shall be part of each GNU free operating system
distribution.

Emacs alone cannot handle emails as fast as I wish it should. It is
good for smaller volumes.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Ruben Safir  [2019-10-15 22:31]:
> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 09:24:14AM +0100, Brandon Invergo wrote:
> > 
> > Ruben Safir writes:
> > 
> > > Bullshit
> > >
> > > You should leave and Richard should stop beiong harrassed by bigots like
> > > you
> > >
> > > The truth is, you don't get a say in this.  GNU is not a democracy,
> > 
> > Ruben (and everyone else), can you please take a kinder tone when
> > discussing on GNU lists, even if you disagree with the person?
> > 
> > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> 
> No, an atrocity has happened here and I will not be calmed and I will
> not comply with niceties.  And this goes beyond GNU.  My friend and
> family was assaulted, attacked, and made homeless, and as he is entering
> an age where most people thinking of retiring in Florida, his lifetime
> of accomplishment has been attacked by a small minded group of fanatics.
> It is a huge injustice and I will not be kinder to these pricks.

Well said, thank you.

That is reality.

I understand that expressing it in language is not as kind, yet I find
it proper, well expressed, straight to the point.

I would suggest to be kinder as calling people pricks, while it can
give you temporary relief from stress is not kind and remains in
mailing lists for history.

I am also sorry to have expressed myself to Guix leaders like Ludovic
Courtès in any bad manner, I was outraged by the involvement of other
politics into the GNU as free operating system that shall be free of
any other politics.

When group of people have rules to be kind or let us say apolitical,
and then some of them break the rules, and if there is nobody to
enforce the rules, people are protesting and one can hardly expect
protests to be as nice. It would be better having somebody to moderate
GNU pages and what is published on GNU projects.

Even the nicest person in the world is to break the rules and conduct
of being nice when somebody becomes way too hostile towards that
person. That is expected human reaction.

> While you go to sleep tonight on your pillow, Richard is scrambling about
> to find a place to live and a table to enjoy a warm meal, because these
> pricks used him as a political tool.

After reading the articles of incorporation of the FSF, they could
make Richard Stallman a friend of corporation or simply give him other
position but President, and even without any position they should and
can pay him funds from the corporation. Maybe Richard does not want to
receive anything, however, FSF management still have the powers to pay
him any funds.

Same is valid for other friendly organizations such as FSFE, and also
individuals. 

He is finally the major funds raiser, people donate because of his
free software philosophy. And he does work! Look at the speech in
Russia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCh8EcBrptA or look at his
latest visit to Microsoft Research:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/

He is making allies, teaching people about free software, and
promoting free software philosophy. 

There is nothing wrong for the FSF to provide any means for RMS.

It is sad to see how he had to search for home, that could have been
handled by the FSF itself, on an urgent basis. Surely I do not have
enough data about their transactions and relation, and I can easily
make wrong judgment. Yet that is the impression I have got according
to what I could read.

> I will not be quiet nor will I use inappropriate language.  This is an
> outrage and I will use outrage appropriate language to address it.

Well said, thank you.

> These same bastards that signed this petition, after 9-11, when I got to
> Bordeaux, not even a few weeks after the attacks while the smell of the
> dead was still in the air all out NYC, asked me why do we lockup all our
> Muslims in NYC, and then made snide anti-semitic  remarks at lunch.  I
> know many of them.  They are undeserving of a generous person like
> Richard to champion there projects and ideals.  And their rat like
> behavior is not a one off event.  It is a pattern of abuse.

I suggest refraining from making accusations without facts, and I
don't think that those are really same people, though I do not
know. Please be specific in your remarks, and if there is any politics
or mentioning of religion or any other type of politics beyond free
software, I would say leave out out from GNU and FSF activities, as
those are both activities that are welcoming to everybody regardless
of their personal and private thinking or political viewpoints.

Jean Louis

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

Quote by RMS: "People are sometimes discouraged from participating in
GNU development because of certain patterns

Re: Free-Software Youtube downloader

[Jean Louis]

* Jonathan Carter  [2019-10-14 02:26]:
> On 2019/10/13 20:44, Alexandre François Garreau wrote:
> > Le samedi 12 octobre 2019, 11:19:22 CEST Jean Louis a écrit :
> >> Try to watch YouTube videos by using hypervideo or youtube
> >> downloaders.
> > 
> > Please correct me right away if I’m wrong (just posting that right away 
> > upon 
> > reading) —I’d be happy to be— but currently there’s no free-software 
> > youtube 
> > downloader as youtube makes them need to execute autogenerated non-free 
> > javascript to get essential information to download them, isn’t it?
> 
> youtube-dl works great and is free (free enough to be considered DFSG
> free and in Debian main).

I am not sure there, does it use non-free javascript?

Why then did Hyperbola people remove youtube-dl from system and
introduced hypervideo: https://libregit.org/heckyel/hypervideo which
is fork of youtube-dl but described "without using non-free
javascript"?

Jean

Re: Thoughts on the Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Ruben Safir  [2019-10-14 06:27]:
> On 10/13/19 7:23 PM, Taylan Kammer wrote:
> > On 13.10.2019 23:31, Ruben Safir wrote:
> >> Seam Gano is pound scum.  If I could think of a better term I would.
> > 
> > This is dehumanizing language and should absolutely not be tolerated on
> > any GNU mailing list.
> > 
> > - Taylan
> > 
> 
> http://www.mrbrklyn.com/movies/Monty%20Python%20Spanish%20Inquisition%20Part%202.webm

The dehumanizing stuff published beyond GNU and FSF is fine and
tolerated, and defense is dehumanizing and not tolerated.

We are all civil here. But when certain agreements go along
uncivilized generalizations, biased accusations, orchestrated
thoughtsquad inquisition for thoughtcrimes, then even civil people
raise and express themselves in a protesting manner. Not in a nice
manner.

Jean

Re: Free-Software Youtube downloader

[Jean Louis]

* Alexandre François Garreau  [2019-10-14 00:15]:
> Le samedi 12 octobre 2019, 11:19:22 CEST Jean Louis a écrit :
> > Try to watch YouTube videos by using hypervideo or youtube
> > downloaders.
> 
> Please correct me right away if I’m wrong (just posting that right away upon 
> reading) —I’d be happy to be— but currently there’s no free-software youtube 
> downloader as youtube makes them need to execute autogenerated non-free 
> javascript to get essential information to download them, isn’t it?

I did not verify it but hypervideo looks it can do it.
https://www.hyperbola.info/packages/community/any/hypervideo/

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Brandon Invergo  [2019-10-13 09:38]:
> Everyone,
> 
> This is off-topic for gnu-system-discuss.  gnu-system-discuss is for
> technical topics related to the GNU System.  Please take the
> discussion elsewhere.
> 
> Furthermore, if the discussion is to continue to include personal
> attacks against *any* member of GNU, then it should not be held on
> any GNU mailing lists.  We strive for a community of kindness and
> respect here even in disagreement, and the present conversation has
> shown little of that.

Me too, can you tell that to Guix project to remove then the personal
attack on RMS, and continue with community of kindness and respect?

As their issues are not related to GNU, but feminism.

Let me know if you are willing to do that.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

Thank you for your understanding and the defense of RMS and that
includes GNU and FSF too.

I do not know of any evidence that somebody in FSF is doing something
wrong against the GNU or RMS, if anybody knows, please show me links.

Let me give you summary of what happened:

1. Person accused RMS of issues not related to GNU or FSF, related to
   jokes like abort() jokes, related to his statements which were
   logical and nothing bad. Even if his statements would be bad for
   majority of people, those are not related to free software
   foundation.

   See references below.
   
   My Thoughts on the Richard Stallman "Scandal" by Jacob
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

   https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

2. Few of people in Guix project have made statement that support
   feminism politics and have published it on the GNU project pages,
   in particular on Guix: https://guix.gnu.org/

   They have tried to hide the feminism agenda on that page, but they
   have openly said it on their IRC log, see evidences on
   http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log and
   http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-08.log by searching for words
   "abort" and "virgin" jokes and "MIT".

   Basically, without public discussion, without verification of
   facts, they are abusing GNU project pages and trying to introduce
   feminism politics into GNU project.

3. People protest against it and make various comments and
   remarks.

The basis of GNU project is that it is for everybody, it shall be
apolitical, because as soon as any politics is introduced, it is
dividing the community.

We are together in community for reasons of free software philosophy
as that is planetary common goal for GNU and free software activists.

Feminism is not a planetary goal and does not fit into many countries,
and if opinion on feminism issue matters, people feel divided and not
welcome in Guix community, which is what many have already expressed
in their IRC channel. 

Feminism or introduction of any politics into the independent and
apolitical GNU project is obviously dividing the community as we are
not supposed to be identified within GNU project by our political
opinion, but by our activism to free software.

Guix leader did not allow any comments on their blog, and expressly
said they will not allow it. Ask me for IRC log for evidence if
necessary.

Thus they abuse GNU project for feminism politics, introducing other
politics for which GNU project was not meant for. 

The only politics that GNU project shall push is free software
activism.

Guix leaders find it appropriate to abuse Guix for their feministic
views, I am not agains their free speech but abusing apolitical Guix
and GNU platform for their politics is not welcome, it is dividing
community. 

We shall be friends in GNU project for reasons of having GNU as common
for everybody.

And not for reasons if we agree to feminism or not agree to feminism
or any other politics beyond GNU project, at that moment it becomes
politics beyond free software.

Finally feminism movement is not international and not common to all
people on this planet, while software and computing is common to
everybody.

Huge number of people on this planet, larger majority is not
supporting feminism, so while it is fine for me to support feminism in
the general sense of social equality of sexes, it is not fine to abuse
GNU project which is about free software and operating systems to
introduce politics that simply does not fit to everybody.

They, Ludovic Cortès and Andy Wingo and others of the Thoughtpolice
Squad[1] are on their online quest to punish Dr. Richard Stallman for
Thoughtcrime[2]. 

Sadly nobody from FSF realizes what means division of community and
nobody is acting upon it publicly that I know or can see.

That is due to fact that Guix leaders and FSF staff members did not
travel enough in this world, they did not visit many countries and did
not live in them to understand the planet and humanity better, so they
maybe are taking a stance in politics by not understanding that GNU
project is planetary project and not only for those people who agree
to feminism.

My suggestion is that you rethink about all that and decide yourself
if introduction of any other politics is good or not good for GNU and
FSF, and then to write to following email addresses with your opinion:

To FSF: fsf-and-...@fsf.org and to GNU: gnu-and-...@gnu.org and
express your opinion.

Jean Louis

P.S. How does Dr. Richard Stallman lead GNU Project? Some programmers
who never were activists of free software in the society, but just
programmers, like Ludovic, they think he shall lead project in the
same manner like they do, by programming or organizing people in
programming. That is not so.

Dr. Richard Stallman contacts opinion leaders and forwards free software:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> [2019-10-12 21:26]:
> a...@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) wrote:
> Taylan Kammer  wrote:
> >> The GNU project should publish a list of ideologies that are officially 
> >> banned from its channels so people know what they're in for.  All other 
> >> topics should be treated neutrally so long as nobody is using slurs or a 
> >> bullying attitude.  Codes of conduct should clarify whether a rule such as 
> >> no homophobia simply means no homophobic slurs/bullying, or whether it 
> >> means that certain ideologies are banned and others favored.
> >
> > Can everyone move this discussion elsewhere?
> 
> Where?
> 
> > Seeing that this is not related to the GNU system or Guix.
> 
> Institution of ideological censorship in GNU project is pretty
> heavily related to the future of GNU system.

We shall follow the principle to avoid any politics in FSF or GNU. or
FSF owned pages for reasons that FSF when allowing such activity is
prone to lose the tax-free status.

References:
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-ban-on-political-campaign-intervention-by-501c3-organizations

GNU.ORG domain belongs to FSF. FSF is not policing their own pages,
like GUIX.GNU.ORG

Page and subdomain Guix.gnu.org belong to FSF.

It does not matter that several people said "GNU is different", that
is gibberish for the law maker.

Please refer to this statement of the USA tax office IRS:
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-ban-on-political-campaign-intervention-by-501c3-organizations-website-postings-and-links

A website is a form of communication.  If an organization posts
something on its website that favors or opposes a candidate for public
office, it is prohibited political campaign activity.  Posting
information on its website is the same as if the organization
distributed printed material or made oral statements or broadcasts
that favored or opposed a candidate.

If an organization establishes a link to another website, it is
responsible for the consequences of establishing and maintaining that
link, even if the organization does not have control over the content
of the linked site.  Because the linked content may change, the
organization should monitor the linked content and adjust or remove
any links that could result in prohibited political campaign activity.

The Thoughtpolice Squad[1] did not chose to mention any candidate for
public office, but they have taken a political stance dangerous enough
that they could as well do such action without FSF knowing what is
going on, and it would harm the tax-free status of teh FSF.

The non-profit organization such as FSF is supposed to remain
non-partisan.

These facts are valid for gnu-system-discuss mailing list as well.

GNU shall remain apolitical for the same reasons that emergency room
in hospitals is apolitical. It is for the same reasons as freedom
zero. It is for the same reasons as Red Cross activity and numerous
other organizations that are helping people without asking members
what stance they take in the feminism politics.

It would be good if it really becomes so.

Jean Louis

Footnotes:
[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Police

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Wilson Bustos  [2019-10-12 17:45]:
> Why should GuixSD feminist?
> Free software movement is no about popularity, is about freedom.

Because Ludovic Courtès said to me so, when I asked him, that reason
for defamation of RMS is their abort() joke and Emacs Virgin jokes,
including the "MIT episodes", and you can see evidences what I am
talking about here on the Guix IRC log:
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log and here
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-08.log if you search for those
keywords "abort" and "virgin" or "MIT"

I agree that free software shall be for freedom, but not about freedom
for feminists, anti-fashists, fashists, nazis, or any other politics
on GNU pages but free software politics.

The Thoughtpolice Squad have their own pages to publish their
opinions.

It is not appropriate to punish RMS for Thoughtcrime on GNU.ORG domain
and GNU project shall remain apolitical to any other viewpoints but
free software points.

See:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

> If woman's come to the project should be for what we are, not because we
> will became a feminist movement.
> 
> Of course is some way the project is politics, but free software politics
> not gender identity politics, that is something completely
> different.

It should be, but it is not, due to lack of policy enforcement to
remain apolitical.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Christophe Poncy  [2019-10-11 23:10]:
> On 2019-10-11 20:41, Taylan Kammer wrote:
> > […]  What position does he
> > hold within today's GNU project other than being a wise old person
> > (wise with respect to his topics of expertise) who is respected a lot?
> > 
> 
> As a simple user, I see him as the guardian of the temple ("Chief
> GNUisance"), and that reassures me because he embodies the free software
> philosophy on its own.
> 
> > the maintainers and contributors collectively
> > hold a lot more power than any single person.
> 
> IMO, the GNU essence is more powerful than the sum of its hackers.
> 
> > So in a way I guess I  don't really see what the statement
> > is trying to accomplish
> 
> It visibly sets the scapegoat mechanism in motion, see
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoating#Scapegoat_mechanism

Thanks. Good for my reference for further propaganda.

Literary critic and philosopher Kenneth Burke first coined and described the 
expression scapegoat mechanism in his books Permanence and Change (1935),[14] 
and A Grammar of Motives (1945).[15] These works influenced some philosophical 
anthropologists, such as Ernest Becker and René Girard. Girard developed the 
concept much more extensively as an interpretation of human culture. In 
Girard's view, it is humankind, not God, who has need for various forms of 
atoning violence. Humans are driven by desire for that which another has or 
wants (mimetic desire). This causes a triangulation of desire and results in 
conflict between the desiring parties. This mimetic contagion increases to a 
point where society is at risk; it is at this point that the scapegoat 
mechanism[16] is triggered. This is the point where one person is singled out 
as the cause of the trouble and is expelled or killed by the group. This person 
is the scapegoat. Social order is restored as people are contented that they 
have solved the cause of their problems by removing the scapegoated individual, 
and the cycle begins again. The keyword here is "content". Scapegoating serves 
as a psychological relief for a group of people. Girard contends that this is 
what happened in the narrative of Jesus of Nazareth, the central figure in 
Christianity. The difference between the scapegoating of Jesus and others, 
Girard believes, is that in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, he is 
shown to be an innocent victim; humanity is thus made aware of its violent 
tendencies and the cycle is broken. Thus Girard's work is significant as a 
reconstruction of the Christus Victor atonement theory. 

Important is free software philosophy and as such it is not political.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* pelzflorian  [2019-10-12 15:38]:
> On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 03:06:31PM +0200, Jean Louis wrote:
> > Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other people who are introducing
> > their pro-feminist political views into the apolitical GNU project
> > are mixing the independent GNU project with their feminist stances.
> > 
> 
> Thank you for making clear arguments.  I believe there is disagreement
> with some core points.
> 
> GNU projects should be feminist, because losing contributors, users
> and advocates because of toxic behavior harms free software.  This is
> not unrelated politics.  It is very important.

I am sorry, which software got harmed?

It does not harm any software. I did not see any harm. Did some byte
of software change because of somebody's thinking? That would be one
unexplainable instance of telekinesis that I would like to observe.

When somebody expresses ANY opinion is not considered "harm" in my
opinion.

Please Florian, maybe you are from Germany, in Germany it is forbidden
to show Swastika, right? So it is censorship of free speech. If I
would bring Swastika from Nagpur, India, where I came from yesterday,
they would charge me for having a symbol of good luck that many people
use in Nagpur.

GNU is meant for all people and it is planetary project, and not
Western world feminist project only, and it shall take any stance in
any kind of politics but free software politics.

Let us not be opportunists that place expediency above other
principles, that consider good feelings with "everybody" more
important than free software principles.

So NO POLITICS IN GNU PROJECT!

Do you understand that GNU project has planetary importance?

So your stance on feminism is also directly connected to Islam, what
will be next, to prevent Muslim people using free software? What is
next? What is next?

> IMHO it would be sad to lose the support of RMS who continues to do
> so much for GNU.  

His support is never lost.

He has laid out the free software philosophy and GNU manifesto, and
principles, and rule that GNU shall not follow any politics but free
software politics.

So his support is never lost unless all the supporters of free
software philosophy suddenly die in one planetary catastrophe.

> Endorsing RMS as the GNU Project’s leader could be seen as endorsing
> bad behavior though which harms the GNU operating system.

There are millions of people thinking different, why care about it?

What you think will happen in 30 years from now? Some other movement
requesting GNU to be nice to their politics?

Nonsense.

> I thank the GNU maintainers for their stance and am sorry for
> prolonging this discussion even though all arguments were already
> given somewhere before.

There are no arguments Florian. Even my son has same name as you.

Florian, FSF ist nicht Deutschland. Please try to understand what is
free speech. People shall not be punished for free speech.

RMS did not even say what is said that he has said. At least be right
to yourself to verify the facts.

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

See more:
https://fsforce.noblogs.org/
https://backtotheaugust.org/

See this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU

How about watching this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

Please STATE the facts.

If you would make your judgment according to German constitution, I
would be fine, but you are not. Nobody is guilty of any crime, so do
not make RMS guilty of Thoughtcrime.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Police
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

m.  On the flip side,
> a religious person could request another member to refrain from
> expressing political views in support of normalizing homosexuality
> within society, because that in turn offends them.  Outside channels
> of communication of the project, both could express their opinions.

It shall simply remain outside, moderators shall just take it outside
or suggest them other appropriate channels.

Thank you Taylan for thoughtfull well written article.

Jean Louis


Footnotes:
[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Police

[2]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Quiliro Ordóñez  [2019-10-11 01:27]:
> * Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-10-10 07:09]:
> > I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
> > lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
> > our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
> 
> Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other
> information, on the basis that such material is considered
> objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient.

Their censorship is for their very expressed support to feminism
movement. They are introducing politics into GNU project.

GNU project is apolitical to anything but free software.

They have broken their own deeds to be apolitical, and are abusing
GNU.org domain and Guix free system distribution to spread their
feminist views.

Reasons have been given to me by Ludovic Courtès, where he said it is
abort() joke and Emacs Virgin joke, see:
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log and
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-08.log

By the way Ludovic Courtès does not have any promotion of free
software politics on his website, so he never even mentioned the four
freedoms, he is not really proponent, he is programmer, but that is
not same. He is rather opportunist pushing himself and his own goals
forward. One cannot expect more but what he does now.

Jean Louis

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Ruben Safir  [2019-10-12 04:40]:
> > > Where did you get this bullshit ?
> > >
> > https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794
> 
> That is the very definition of bullshit, not to mention libel
> 
> Those that spread this crap are the lowest form of humans.  They are
> even worst than Frenchmen.

Facts:

https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or 
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

But let me say this way: the fact that somebody says something that
feminists oppose is taken to "cancel" that person.

GNU project was never political. It is apolitical. It is for all
people regardless of their political views.

RMS can be pro-feminist, or anti-feminist, I do not care, but he never
made GNU project political and does not abuses GNU project for his
political views, he has his own website www.stallman.org

What is more important but temporary political views is GNU project,
FSF and politics of free software.

That is by all intelligence standards separate from viewpoints of GNU
maintainers and RMS and anybody else using free software.

Jean Louis

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Ruben Safir  [2019-10-10 17:35]:
> On 10/9/19 10:37 PM, Jean Louis wrote:
> > GNU.ORG domain belongs to RMS, directly or indirectly.
> 
> there always was a problem with the issue of succession though, which is
> seperate from this blood libel charges against RMS.

That problem is easily solved:

1. By re-instating and defining better the purposes of the FSF.

2. By having people who are loyal to free software fundamental
   principles.

3. By having one of fundamental principles for free software to remain
   apolitical in any other issues but free software.

The real leadership of free software movement further is not
constrained neither by GNU.org neither by those who introduce feminism
movement such as Ludovic Courtès, Andy Wingo ando thers into GNU
project.

Everybody is free to become a new "Richard Stallman" and promote free
software in society, and making ground for the same principles he has
already established.

> Both the FSF and the GNU project are too dependent on an individual and
> a normalized process of succession might be in order.

They are not, you are mistaken. To say so, you would need to review
the basic legalities as I did review it. There are Articles of
Association, there are By-Laws and plethora of RMS articles.

If people within FSF are not loyal to those principles, they can
pervert the organization, that is possible. As of now there is no
evidence of such activity, and FSF shall be supported without any
doubts.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Vasya Boytsov  [2019-10-10 23:03]:
> I kindly ask to remove this statement from the Guix site. It's
> inappropriate, it's poisonous for the community (you can see this
> clearly now). Anyone can have their own opinion in this discussion,
> but _PLEASE_ can we divide OS development and politics?
> There are more appropriate places to post such statements. Having this
> post on a _Guix_ website is very bad for community health.
> I want to continue using Guix and contribute some packages, but with
> such a political involvement I can't.

See my answer here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-system-discuss/2019-10/msg00037.html

That is exactly the problem and the problem was solved but just not
respected by those few who are taking stance on their politics, in
this case feminism movement, Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other
supporters of the pro-feminist politics have published their
pro-feminist statement here:
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ and
have not openly said what it is, neither stated the fact, but tried to
bring GNU community down for reasons of Thoughtcrime[1].

Ludovic Courtès said to me that reasons are of feminist nature:

- abort() joke, see the IRC log where he said to me it is about abort
  joke and "MIT episode": http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log
  search for "abort".

- see another evidence here where he introduces feminism stances on
  Emacs Virgin jokes: http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log

Basically RMS is guilty of Thoughtcrime[1] and they (those proponent
of feminism movement) would like GNU without people who think different.

GNU project was always a apolitical and independent. That is why there
is freedom zero that anybody can use software for whatever purposes
they wish.

For example somebody could use free software, GPL licensed, to abort()
or prevent-abortion(), or to spy, create wars or prevent wars, publish
nazi propaganda or anti-fascist propaganda.

By introducing politics other but free software into GNU project
pages, those pro-feminist group of GNU maintainers have tried to make
GNU project political.

Jean Louis

Footnotes:
[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

Re: FSF/GNU future without RMS, my opinion

[Jean Louis]

Hello rmssupport,

Let me comment on this one.

* rmssupport  [2019-10-10 22:11]:
> Precisely the Free Software Force born in response to the situation mentioned 
> here.
> 
> https://fsforce.noblogs.org/

In regards to following:

> We also criticize the role played by the Free Software Foundation, its
> management team has unpity assumed the resignation of a person who has
> made an unjust decision as a result of unjust persecution (they have
> not even published a minimal public statement showing their regret or
> discomfort about it). Moreover, the Free Software Foundation has not
> broken but maintains the relationship with Software Freedom
> Conservancy that has promoted the persecution of Richard Stallman,
> even the current Executive Director maintains his public support for
> Software Freedom Conservancy. Such an Free Software Foundation doesn’t
> deserve our support. With this, the Free Software Foundation has not
> lost only who was its president, they have lost all the people who
> support Richard Stallman. If the Free Software Foundation says goodbye
> to its president in this way, we say goodbye to the Free Software
> Foundation. We will continue our work of promotion and diffusion of
> free software, but we’re not gonna do it under the acronym of who has
> looked the other way when this was happening to a person who has done
> so much for the cause as Richard Stallman.

Let me say following:

FSF and FSF.org websites are clearly apolitical, not political in
other issues but: "(1) that users should have control of their own
computing (for instance, through free software) and (2) supporting
basic human rights in computing. We don't require you as a contributor
to agree with these two points, but you do need to accept that our
decisions will be based on them." -- see:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

Thus FSF supports free software and deserves support, not other way
around.

There are By-Laws of the FSF and President can resign. However, same
individual can have other positions, for example RMS cannot resign as
Founder as that is not possible.

I do not know really why he resigned, instead he only had to make few
policies, that FSF staff members shall not abuse FSF or FSF resources
or GNU projct for other politics but free software politics, and I do
not even know if they did anything of that kind, there is no evidence
to it.

The FSF was set there to follow RMS policies, funndamental principles
and to ensure for future the free software movement.

To decide if organization deserves support, one has to look into its
goals and purposes. For me FSF deserves support.

FSF shall remain apolitical and not promote and not let FSF and GNU
resources for promotion of feminism such as the statement by group of
people supporting feminism: Ludovic Courtès, Andy Wingo and others:
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
because they are abusing GNU platform for their political views.

We now think of the situation as being crazy, it is not, it is simple
situation where other political views were introduced into GNU
project, they have abused GNU project to push forward feminism views,
and now we got some troubles, and troubles are easily solvable.

Solution is to continue keeping GNU apolitical.

Those people who have signed the agreement ARE NOT free software
public speakers neither activists, they are only technical,
programmers who like their works and promote their works.

GNU, Guile, and all the software was funded by GNU, thus RMS's
creation, and FSF, and that is all fine.

Those people supporting feminism have introduced their one political
view into GNU project, they simply abused the powers given to them by
GNU project, so they used it to create a Thoughtpolice Squad[1] to
discover and punish Thoughtcrime[2] on GNU project, and they think
that GNU project shall be thought-policed for their feminism reasons.

Please review my facts on that, and do not become a consequence to few
people who wish others harm. FSF is good foundation and does nothing
against free sofware.

Those people are named, they are political, introducing their stance
into GNU project which is independent and apolitical.

Support the FSF and GNU.

Support apolitical GNU project.


Jean Louis

Footnotes:
[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Police

[2]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Alexandre François Garreau  [2019-10-11 13:53]:
> Le jeudi 10 octobre 2019 12:24:35 CEST, vous avez écrit :
> > * Alexandre François Garreau  [2019-10-10 11:55]:
> > > > I don't know how to defend anybody in public by silencing talk.
> > > 
> > > Answering whenever appropriate, currently only when asked to, and keep
> > > going this way.
> > 
> > I have no such mentality.
> > 
> > I am doing for RMS what I would like that other people do for
> > me. Stand up and raise the voice. Not wait. That is not me.
> 
> Maybe if you were in the position of rms you would think differently, better 
> acknowledging the different tensions et pressions out there.

Dear Alexandre,

I am sorry, I will take this to the mailing list, not let it be
private.

I do not know what RMS thinks, what I know is that GNU project shall
remain apolitical. The only politics that GNU project shall support is
"(1) that users should have control of their own computing (for
instance, through free software) and (2) supporting basic human rights
in computing. We don't require you as a contributor to agree with
these two points, but you do need to accept that our decisions will be
based on them." See:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

RMS has upheld the above points, and was always apolitical in regards
to free software. He knows well that free software can be used to
prevent abortions, and to make abortions. For example it could be
possible to make an automatic robotic hand that does abortion()
function without presence of doctors, and such could be done with free
software.

I know it because I have read freedom zero: "The freedom to run the
program as you wish" -- so it means AS YOU WISH. To kill, or prevent
killing, to abort or not about() I don't care. I am distributing free
software and truly giving that freedom to others.

GNU project shall remain apolitical for anything but free
software.

Thus feminist views of Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other
feminists that have published their defaming and libelous statement
on: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
are not welcome on GNU project.

They are preventing contra-feminists to join the Guix project, GNU
project, due to their political views.

GNU project is welcoming feminists, and contra-feminists, but for as
long as the GNU project is not abused to spread out their propaganda.

And nobody is preventing them to publish their opinions outside of GNU
project. If they have balls for that.

Jean Louis

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

Dear Alexander,

I know you have sent this to me private and now I am sending it to
mailing lists, it concerns others. Let me say my comments shortly:

* Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-10-11 23:00]:
> > Thank you much, please spread the facts, and ask for those people to
> > resign from GNU project, and build their own project which they will
> > not defame and damage.
> I suppose the better way is to make an offer for those 'quite damaged'
> people to calm down and re-think again.
> 
> But for sure - this shit story around RMS must be gone away.

It is very simple thing, GNU project was always apolitical in all
politics but free software and RMS have uphold this himself for long
time. Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and few others have stated
immaturely that they are basically defending feminist views and are by
that way introducing politics into GNU project other politics but free
software movement and rights of computer users.

That RMS himself is not apolitical outside of GNU project, we know
that all. But RMS never introduced his other political views into the
GNU project, in fact he is publishing it on www.stallman.org which is
not GNU neither FSF website. It is his personal.

Politics other but free software has no place in GNU project,
including in Guix as free system distribution. They are abusing their
Guix position to spread their feminist views. I don't mind anybody
spreading feminist views, because myself I am not political in that
sense, I like fighting for human rights, but I allow people their free
speech rights.

What I do mind is spreading their feminist views on page that was Guix
page, that shall remain apolitical, not political for anything but
free software, that shall remain independent of social views, as only
that way we can ensure freedom zero for software to be used by
anybody, how they wish.

It is very very clear since I know Guix people last 3 years that they
will not give same support on IRC log to those they (small group)
consider somehow socially not acceptable, and that is not community I
am looking for.

They support feminist views, and are using IRC chat to speak to many
people and impose their feminist views across the channel that had to
be related to free software.

> >>> skipped for better reading <<<
> 
> I would ask them to think again about this shit, but if they're not so
> comfortable - yep, the only way for them is to resign.

I am of the following impression on what has to be done:

1. Either Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other feminist stance
   political takers, remove their other-politics from Guix.gnu.org or
   GNU pages, and refrain from introducing new politics, or

2. that FSF removes it or RMS removes it himself, and ask them to stay
   apolitical on GNU pages, as GNU project does not care who thinks
   what,

3. Or what is actually better when person have balls, to resign from
   GNU project. But they like the US $100,000 donation they received,
   and it is question if those feminists have some balls for that.
   
Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

Dear Ludovic,

Hello, how are you? I was on long travel, could not answer you earlier.

* Ludovic Courtès  [2019-10-10 16:29]:
> Hi Jean-Louis,
> 
> Jean Louis  skribis:
> 
> > * Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-10-10 07:09]:
> >> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
> >> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
> >> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
> >
> > I cannot expect anything else from you.
> 
> You’ve made your point now; I see you’ve even set up a web page to
> collect hatred messages against me.

I am sorry for your experience. I have not "setup the web page to
collect hatred messages against you". That you think that is my
purpose, that is your own opinion, but it is not.

I have set the page to show that there are people who think different
than you.

You have made your statement in public, and your statement introduces
other politics but free software politics into the GNU free software
spaces.

Guix is part of GNU project, and you are promoting your whatever other
politics. I do not know what exactly it is named, I think it is
feminism. Call it as you wish, because I am not interested in that
other politics. If I am interested I will read it.

GNU Project is not political. It is apolitical.

Did I ask you to tell me your facts to publish such opinions on GNU
Guix pages guix.gnu.org subdomain on GNU.ORG project?

Did you answer to me that it is because of abort() joke?

Here is the log proving so:
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log

"you've probably seen a number of events, like the "glibc abort joke"
episode, the latest episode with MIT, and more"

So you are the one introducing thought-frames and you are organizing
Thougtpolice Squad and introducing other politics into GNU Project but
free software politics.

I don't care of your feminism, or contra-feminism issues. I simply
don't. I am supporting GNU project for reasons of
non-discrimination. For reasons that it is for everybody, regardless
of their opinions.

You mentioned "the recent MIT episode", but did you read the
rebuttals?

https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

Is your opinion and statement going to change after reading facts and
rebuttals? Are you going to change your Guix statement due to
disagreements to your  feminism politics in Guix which is in the GNU
Project?

Could you have some balls and simply take out your feminism politics
out of GNU Project?

Was there not enough people telling you on Guix chat that for reasons
of your politics that they do not want to support Guix neither use
Guix?

Why are you imposing other directions in Guix system distribution,
others but "Freedom Zero" policies that Guix remains for everybody,
and not just for those who are on side of feminism?

> I ask you to stop using the Guix mailing lists for this now.  I will
> propose to the Guix maintainers to put you on a moderation queue if
> you don’t stop by yourself.

For as long is that statement on Guix website, and I live, I will not
stop.

For as long as you are bringing fear, uncertainty and doubt into what
was friendly GNU community of people of various opinions but agreeing
to provide GNU free software systems, I will not stop.

For as long as Guix as such and you keep pushing other politics into
GNU Project but politics of free software, I will not stop.

You can put me under your censorship, isn't that what you were doing
since the moment I tried asking you about facts?

Your own website does not speak of free software politics, it speaks
of software as such. But you never mentioned Dr. Richard Stallman or
ideals of free software on your personal website:
http://web.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludo-3.html
http://people.bordeaux.inria.fr/lcourtes/

Your speeches are technical not ideological.

And who are you then to say that Richard Stallman does not qualify as
GNU project leader? You are hacker, programmer, but ideologically,
your only stance is in feminism, even that is in covert manner.

> Disagreement is fine; attrition is now.

That you don't like people's opinion is already clear. But one thing
you cannot do nothing about is the snow ball that is going on those
political issues that you introduced in Guix, the distribution that
received over US $100,000 from FSF and third parties.

> My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing this.
> :-(

"Guix people" are not all people, many disagree with you and they told
you on IRC chat, and on many web pages. And you know it.

Please take your political shit out of Guix pages. Or go out of GNU as
being political enough to bring separation in community because of
your political vie

Re: ‘censorship’

[Jean Louis]

* Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> [2019-10-12 11:36]:
> David  wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 21:11:51 +0300 Dmitry
> > Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> You replied privately, offlist.  Was it intentional?  If yes, why: I see 
> >> nothing secret there?
> >
> > Absolutely yes, and I did so as your mail to me was private.
> 
> I’m sure it was not.  :-)

Then maybe I forgot to press "g" in mutt.

> >> If no, may I resent it back to the list?
> >
> > If someone sends me a private mail I follow suit but I've nothing whatever 
> > to hide on this topic.
> 
> I am interpreting this as ‘yes’.

My opinion related to GNU Project is public.

In my opinion, what happened is very same thing that Dr. Richard
Stallman already tried to say to somebody else:

Look here:
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

"The injustice is in the word "assaulting". The term "sexual assault"
is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation:
taking claims that someone did X and leading people to think of it as
Y, which is much worse than X."

What happened is this:

Dr. Richard Stallman had some opinion not relevant to GNU Project free
operating system, and not relevant to FSF, and not relevant to free
software movement.

Somebody (probably on medium.com) has facilitated accusation inflation
by taking claims that RMS did X and have been leading people to think
of it as Y which is much worse than X.

Media has picked it up.

Few of purely technical and not free software movement ideological
members such as Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo have further
facilitated accusation inflation by taking claims that RMS did X and
are now loading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than
X.

In my opinion those people who signed the defamatory and libelous
generalizations here
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
shall basically either remove their feminist politics that they are
trying to introduce to GNU Project and Guix operating system, or they
shall be removed from GNU Project.

Why I say so?

It impacts freedom zero "The freedom to run the program as you wish"
in the sense that indirectly calls for users to either agree to this
or that other viewpoint but free software viewpoint.

We have free software community build around GNU for reason that GNU
Project was always politically independent.

Dr. Richard Stallman installed "The freedom to run the program as you
wish" with the full knowledge that such software can be run by anyone
for whatever purposes, which also implies: for purposes of genetical
engineering of babies, for purposes of wars, making wars and
preventing wars, for purposes of sex or elimination of sex, for
purposes of slander, defamation, or social betterment projects, free
software may be used as you wish, for purposes of helping people and
purposes of killing people.

Thus the GNU Project and GNU website was always apolitical in any
sense.

We got now few people like Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo, and few
others, be it 25 I do not know, who think that other social agenda,
beyond free software is more important for GNU project but free
software being apolitical and independent of those views.

That is what really happened.

It requires some clarity to be issued or enforced by GNU project, as
simple as that. The matter can be cleaned.

I don't care what people think of RMS beyond the GNU.ORG website, but
I do care if GNU.ORG and GNU Projects become platform for their
whatever political views others but free software politics.

Stallman keeps his blog on www.stallman.org that is why it is personal
blog and not GNU.ORG or FSF.ORG neither any of their subdomains.

Ludovic Courtès is afraid to publish his opinion on his personal
pages, because that would impact him so much, that is why he asked for
"collective" support. He would otherwise lose ground for whatever he
was doing in Guix, Guile and so on, everything comes back to him. Same
for Andy Wingo who knows nothing but to whine about Stallman without
mentioning even one fact.

People are speaking out in defense of GNU Project and defense of
Richard Stallman:

My Thoughts on the Richard Stallman "Scandal"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

MIT scientist Richard Stallman taken down by vicious media smears
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU

There are thousands comments supporting GNU and also being afraid of
GNU project future without RMS.

Few "GNU maintainers" such as Ludovic Courtès and his Andy Wingo
friend, who are friends in France, country known for historical
censorship[1], are forming a Thoughtpolice Squad[2] for
thoughtcrime[3] of RMS.

GNU project and any of GNU project pages, shall not push forward ANY
KIND OF POLITICS other but free software. GNU Project was always
apolitical and will remain so, and if it does not, I will take over
all writings and policies of RMS and continue with it being
independent of any politics other but free software.

Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo 

Re: [Hangout - NYLXS] ---> RMS : ?? if you are going to use acronyms unknown to many in the audience, footnote them ! + FUD

[Jean Louis]

* Mancini  [2019-10-11 17:31]:
> --->  "RMS" :  ??   if you are going to use acronyms unknown to
> many in the audience, footnote them !   +  "FUD"

You are right, yes, all text shall be clear.

For FUD:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt (often shortened to FUD) is a
disinformation strategy used in sales, marketing, public relations,
politics, cults, and propaganda. FUD is generally a strategy to
influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false
information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear.

Jean

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

On October 10, 2019 8:29:06 PM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jean Louis  wrote:
>> How are you?
>
>Ehm...  Fine.  What is the occasion to ask?

We are then from different cultures simply. At my side it is always used 
similarly as hand shaking.

>> I [] see absolutely no problem there.
>
>I’m afraid, Dr. Stallman would see.

My protest is not to align all my thoughts with Dr. Stallman, my protest is 
that defamation and harassment of RMS is taking place on Guix.GNU.org website.

It is the code of good conduct of Guix itself where they promised harass-free 
space with respect to other people's opinions. See: 
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/CODE-OF-CONDUCT

Writing policies while abusing them themselves is hypocrisy and this time it is 
bad enough that caused international online protests.

>> What is point in backstabbing of RMS? I asked and never got answers
>but FUD.
>
>To get rid of him, of course.  Why to ask for obvious answer?

Well I don't see it that way. I see it as a hostile fact-less thought police 
punishing and degrading GNU, Guix, FSF and RMS for the thought crime. See the 
book 1984

>Many of your letters contain a footer with a call for lead developers
>of Guix, Guile and GnuPG to leave GNU. 

Exactly. That is my opinion. If myself cannot agree with my own community's 
published  coffee of conduct and the founder and if I am to abuse the platform 
given to me by founder and his work to abuse his image and defame him, then I 
would never do that, I would step down.

Reason that they don't have guts is all the comfort they got from FSF and GNU 
which is, was and is being caused by RMS.

Comfort like this 
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2018/gnu-guix-receives-donation-from-the-handshake-project/
 is hard to resist to get their things straight.

>> They have no respect for RMS.
>
>I hope, that you have, though.  And thus will stop to tear down the
>project he founded.

I have never protested against the GNU project as in itself it cannot cause 
actions. My protest is not against Ludovic Courtès's opinion neither their free 
speech, despite all of their efforts to silence every protestors' voice. See 
their logs for evidences of the plot.

My protest is against defamation of founder of the GNU project and on the GNU 
project's domain!

If Ludovic Courtès would publish it on his website I could probably comment on 
his own website. But he did not. By the way I did not find one mention of Dr. 
Stallman on his pages. Think about that and proper crediting.

Ludovic Courtès published it on Guix website hosted on GNU domain. I am 
objecting to that. And I am not alone, there are already hundreds supporting 
comments from all over the world, podcast and defenses, I am not alone thinker 
and please don't turn my words to something what I have not stated. Same 
strategy was used to defame Stallman. And same was used by Ludovic Courtès on 
their disrespectful statement.

Jean 

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

How are you?

On October 10, 2019 12:39:00 PM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Did you move it offlist intentionally?  If not, may I resend it back?

Me for sure not intentionally and Guix managers are anyway conducting 
censorship... So no big deal.

You can resend what you wish. I am not forbidding two-way free speech.

>>>Wow!  Ease off a bit!

No need. I am not feeling fear when I state something. So they did not ease 
with thru FUD and defamation on Guix pages on GNU.org domain, so why MD or 
others should be silenced? No need.

>>>You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of
>>>GNU.  And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage
>to
>>>GNU project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave. 

I don't see absolutely no problem there. And they also not. Their strategy is 
clear that they want their own community where thought police is to punish 
thought crime. So I let them be. 

Their behavior does not fit into GNU kind communication guidelines.

And free software can be freely used? So what is the loss? Their only loss is 
for them to lose other 10 dollars donation, that is possible reason for 
their hostile take over attempt.


>>>all means, you would not able to outcompete them, so it would simply
>>>ended in Guix out of GNU.  

I am last person to convince on that as I am aware of their FUD and harm they 
do to Guix, GNU and RMS. Convince others.

>What the point of dubbing some free program an official GNU package
>nowadays? 

What is point in backstabbing of RMS? I asked and never got answers but FUD.

>I do not see how it can be harmful for Guix.  Not to say, that you are
>also urging to oust, at least, Guile and GnuPG.

No, not at all. I am asking people to behave according to GNU kind 
communication guidelines. And if they don't like it to step down and make their 
own platform for their FUD. But using GNU.org domain to defame and harass RMS 
is disaster for future.

>Of course, it up to them, and I hope they have enough respect for GNU
>and RMS heritage not to follow you strong advice.

They have no respect for RMS. 

Jean Louis

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

It is not harmful if Guix remains free software, how it can be?

It is only harmful for Guix.

It was not my decision, it is theirs.


On October 10, 2019 11:39:42 AM UTC, Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jean Louis  wrote:
>> * Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-10-09 23:13]:
>> - and then within that group there is now a hostile takeover group of
>people starting with Ludovic Courtès and his "fellows" where none of
>them could answer my email to provide me with the facts about their
>statement. They are behaving against established implicit and explicit
>GNU guidelines, and so far nobody from FSF is enforcing any policy
>against them. They are danger to GNU project.
>>
>> My solution would be radical and simple: ask them to refrain damaging
>GNU project, or fork their software, and expell them from GNU project.
>>
>> AS SIMPLE AS THAT.
>
>Wow!  Ease off a bit!
>
>You might not noticed that, but today Guix is the most vivid part of
>GNU.  And I could not image an action, that might cause more damage to
>GNU project, than urging Guix lead developers to leave.  Even if you
>believe that forking software over political discord is good thing to
>do (despite it does not align well with the rest of your message), by
>all means, you would not able to outcompete them, so it would simply
>ended in Guix out of GNU.  So it even more harmful than urging RMS to
>leave.  After all, RMS is mortal and, alas, will leave us and GNU
>sooner or later, while Guix is not necessary.

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Alfred M. Szmidt  [2019-10-10 08:50]:
> So if you wish to support the GNU project, and RMS please aim to
> communicate in kindness, even in disagreements.  I suggest you read
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/knind-communication.en.html as to how we
> would like to communicate with each other.

It is my opinion that in civilized society people have some agreements
and that is why it is "civilized".

When those agreements are broken and I feel they are broken by their
defaming and harassing statement, then what? Am I not entitled to
speak against them? 

> If you can do that to help us, then the GNU project will grow strong
> and a happy place for all hackers.  

Yes, however, that is moving away from the subject, and subject is
that defamation is written on GNU.ORG domain, so if you wish to help
find the FSF staff member who will please ENFORCE those same GNU
Communication Guidelines onto Guix project to remove those statements,
or to ask them to leave and make their own community just as they
envisioned.

Person with integrity would do exactly that on their place. Obviously
they like the good image that they got while being "GNU maintainer"
and they use it in their personal businesses, jobs,
organizations. 

Jean Louis

I am asking those people who are pretending to represent all of the
GNU project and who are defaming and slandering Dr. Richard Stallman
to step down and resign, to do their software hacking somewhere else,
as they do not deserve funding that RMS is giving them. Ludovic
Courtès, Ricardo Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas Enge, Samuel Thibault,
Carlos O'Donell, Andy Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso, Mark Wielaard,
Ian Lance Taylor, Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno, Christopher Lemmer Webber,
Jan Nieuwenhuizen, John Wiegley, Tom Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen
Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian Jackson, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej
Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John W. Eaton, please RESIGN and step down
from GNU projects, disassociate yourself or find another house for
your excessive and uncontrollable fear of the free speech. Do not
spread fear, uncertainty and doubt on GNU.ORG project pages.

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html
https://fsforce.noblogs.org/
https://backtotheaugust.org/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or 
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Alexandre François Garreau  [2019-10-10 07:24]:
> You seem to be pretty upset.  You know, we can discuss that in a rigorous, 
> factual and rigorous way off-lists, before you calm down a bit, and then see 
> what to do.  That’s surely the better for both of sides, especially rms’ one.
> 
> I’ll answer more in detail later.

Thank you.

Spread the facts, and ask for those people to step out of GNU project,
there will be many other free software supporters who value
friendliness in the community.

Jean

I am asking those people who are pretending to represent all of the
GNU project and who are defaming and slandering RMS[1] to step down
and resign, do your software hacking somewhere else, you do not
deserve funding that RMS is giving you. Ludovic Courtès, Ricardo
Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas Enge, Samuel Thibault, Carlos O'Donell, Andy
Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso, Mark Wielaard, Ian Lance Taylor,
Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno, Christopher Lemmer Webber, Jan Nieuwenhuizen,
John Wiegley, Tom Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian
Jackson, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John
W. Eaton, RESIGN and step down from GNU projects, disassociate
yourself, find another house for your excessive and uncrontollable
fear of the free speech.

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html
https://fsforce.noblogs.org/
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Alexandre François Garreau  [2019-10-10 07:24]:
> You seem to be pretty upset.  You know, we can discuss that in a rigorous, 
> factual and rigorous way off-lists, before you calm down a bit, and then see 
> what to do.  That’s surely the better for both of sides, especially rms’ one.
> 
> I’ll answer more in detail later.

Sure I am upset that defamation and slander of RMS is going on on his
own web pages!

I am not upset of defamation and slander outside of GNU.ORG domain. I
am upset that it is going on by funding from FSF, on the GUIX.GNU.ORG
and GNU.ORG domains.

That is the subject.

If those people would not bring hatred in community, biased
generalizations, I would not say anything. If they would bring actual
facts, I would not say anything.

Before publishing any comment on their statement:
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
I have contacted them on the IRC chat and by private email, as I have
not genuinely know what is going on.

So the  question that I have made was to show me some facts "that
Stallman’s behavior over the years has undermined a core value of the
GNU project: the empowerment of all computer users. GNU is not
fulfilling its mission when the behavior of its leader alienates a
large part of those we want to reach out to." -- as to me that
statements sounds like blatant low life type of science fiction.

I have asked for facts. Ludovic Courtès told me it is abort() joke. So
it is not a fact, but his impression that RMS shall not make such
jokes, and that such joke is way higher priority then anything else
that RMS has done for mankind.

And because they are defaming and slandering by using money as created
by RMS, as he created GNU, then FSF, then people support FSF, and now
is this money used to defame and slander person who has done most for
free software -- and because of that OF COURSE I AM 

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Alexander Vdolainen  [2019-10-09 23:13]:

> I'm nobody (yep, I'm using GNU Guile, GNU Emacs and GUIX and a lot
> of other GNU projects (make, gcc, binutils etc ...), but I'm not a
> great contributor yet). However those events are going to look like
> a decision point to move on from GNU community sw.

I feel disgusted by Ludovic Courtès not for reasons of him having an
opinion, but for reason that he is using GNU platform to bring hatred
into GNU community. Would he be using facts, I would not be that much
upsate. Would he answer on my questions to provide me facts, I would
not be that upset.

He did answered to me, he said the fact is that RMS used abort() joke.

So one joke for which he has no sense of humor is just enough to say
how RMS has undermined core values of GNU project "over years".

Ludovic Courtès is hypocrat that is using GNU platform to destroy both
Guix and GNU project. He is probably unaware of that, as good behavior
is something one gets from parents. He does not know what is he
doing. That is why the FSF need to have policy makers and policy
enforcers to remove such hatred from GNU Project website (Guix).

> > to oppose free software, and there are numerous facts of his good
> > deeds for free software, for haven's sake he is the founder of the
> > GNU Project and the Free Software Foundation, such wishy-washy
> > statements have no place on GNU.ORG domain.

> Agreed. And again it all looks like a personal war.

I would be immature to accuse RMS, but anybody, without verifying the
facts and without trying to speak to that person first. Isn't that
most humane and friendly?

Most of all, I would not accuse anybody of thoughtcrime, for their
free speech and opinions. If somebody has bad sense of humor, I will
simply not laugh. Not so for Ludovic Courtès, he finds simple joke
good reason enough to bash on RMS who provided him webspace, domain,
platform, and community, and whole organization and funding through
the FSF. Unbelievable.

And he has not a slightest sense of integrity to recognize what harm
is he doing to RMS and GNU and Guix and the FSF and the community.

There are if not thousands of comments on Ludovic Courtès disgraceful
statement on Internet, but none of them have been re-published or
allowed on Guix pages. They are just biased. They openly said in the
Guix IRC log that they will not allow any comments on their
statements.

What RMS shall do, in my opinion, and I am not RMS, he shall enforce
policies and remove such from Guix projects, or let the Guix project
be hosted elsewhere outside of GNU.ORG domain and website. But he is I
guess wy to kind for something like that to happen, and from FSF I
never found public information that they are enforcing some good
behavior guideliness.

That is harassment, can harassment of RMS stop?

Can generalizations stop?

Can those rumors stop? Why they need to be spread on GNU.ORG website?

 > Thus I am proposing to FSF, and any reader of this message to kindly
> > ask those people to either provide facts, or to retract their
> > statements from Guix and GNU pages.
> How can I help with that ?

Write to those people who signed the disgraceful statement and tell
them your opinion. Ask them for facts. Ask them is one or few jokes
and opinions of RMS really worth to defame, slander and ruin his well
being and position in the community?

In fact, would I be RMS, I would replace those projects, fork them,
and let those rumor mongers go out of the GNU project.

GNU.ORG domain belongs to RMS, directly or indirectly.

Imagine my father gives my bed, room, food, education and money for
living, and then I go spiting in the face of my father.

I am saying no to that behavior.

But even if it would not be my father, I have respect to people who
are first older then me, and I wait with my judgments, and second, I
have great respect of people who have done social betterment actions,
like RMS did for this planet.

> > Those undersigners on the defamatory statement as published by
> > Ludovic Courtès are not representing the community neither they
> > have such authorizations. Statement is written by some amateur,
> > that is not public relation, that is hatred. That is harassment
> > and defamation.
> > 
> > Additionally it is criminal act in France.
> It's time to use a court ...

As I said, knowing RMS, he is waay too kind, he would probably never
do something like that. But I wonder how Ludovic Courtès allows
himself to commit criminal acts in France. Even I would never charge
him, for reasong that I would not like to vomit when I see him face to
face.

> I suppose people acts like the pointed 'undersigners' should go away
> and enjoy political shit they are proposing somewhere in twitter or

Exactly, they shall resign from GNU project.

That is hostile takeover attempt.

GNU.ORG belongs to RMS, I just wish he would be using more of his
authority and take over GNU project to RMS back and assign it only to
trusted people.

Those signers are not 

Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

From:
Mr. Jean Louis
Nagpur, India
Day 3 of week 41 of 2019


This is PROPOSAL TO REMOVE THE OFF-TOPIC and hatred biased generalized
statements from GUIX distribution pages on the domain GNU.ORG where
they are publishing defamatory harassment over RMS:
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/

As those statements are factless, there is nothing that RMS ever said
to oppose free software, and there are numerous facts of his good
deeds for free software, for haven's sake he is the founder of the
GNU Project and the Free Software Foundation, such wishy-washy
statements have no place on GNU.ORG domain.

Thus I am proposing to FSF, and any reader of this message to kindly
ask those people to either provide facts, or to retract their
statements from Guix and GNU pages.

I am asking FSF to enforce the policies of GNU Kind Communication
Guidelines where by it says: "The only political positions that the
GNU Project endorses are (1) that users should have control of their
own computing (for instance, through free software) and (2) supporting
basic human rights in computing."

Those undersigners on the defamatory statement as published by Ludovic
Courtès are not representing the community neither they have such
authorizations. Statement is written by some amateur, that is not
public relation, that is hatred. That is harassment and defamation.

Additionally it is criminal act in France.

I do not endorse separation in the movement, but that is obviously
happening for reason of rumours and those undersigners not being able
to distinguish between personal matters such as whatever personal
viewpoints of RMS has outside of the FSF/GNU space, and the FSF/GNU
space.

But if that is happening for reasons that some of those people lack
the sense of differentiation, then let it be.

But not on GNU pages! GNU project shall not have space for that. I do
not mind if such discussion is happening on the mailing list, as then
other people are able to answer and comment.

But I do mind if it is happening on GUIX free system distribution
which was hosted by kind deeds of RMS and other
contributors. Defamation of RMS is taking place on RMS's domain
GNU.ORG.

I am sorry, this makes no sense to me, and never will.

It is like if one wish to kick his own mother in the stomach.

I do not like hypocrisy.

Let us clean GNU.ORG pages from personal opinions on RMS
opinions.

They do not even communicate with each other. There is no friendship
or sense of community on such statement.

GNU project was created to get a friendly community of hackers, please
see GNU manifesto, and not to endorse separations.

What Ludovic Courtès is doing is exactly that, he is producing hatred,
separation, making division in the friendly GNU free software
community.

Let me repeat, I do not mind what he is saying against RMS, but I do
mind that GNU.ORG is platform for his personal opinions.

Further his statement was never "collective" how it is called, it was
his statement and he asked other people to "sign".

My opinion on your signing of that defamatory, harassing, biased and
fact-less statement is here:
https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html

I am entitling you to your opinion. I could not care less what people
write about each other, whatever rumours or facts would be. I don't
mind. 

But I do not approve on publishing that on GUIX website or GNU.ORG
website. Neither I approve of publishing such statements without
commenting possibility.

That is why I am asking you to speak out your mind now. I will publish
your opinion or lack of opinion. I will publish facts you provide me
or lack of those facts.

So far there is no fact that support their statements.

Free speech is human right, and RMS has free speech rights, and why he
shall be embarassed, defamed, harassed on his own domain?

Please FSF and whoever is responsible and acting, join in the quest to
remove the off-topic politics from GNU.ORG website pages, so that we
stick to promotion of free software, just as quoted from here:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

"The only political positions that the GNU Project endorses are (1)
that users should have control of their own computing (for instance,
through free software) and (2) supporting basic human rights in
computing."

Let those few people NOT represent GNU project, as GNU project never
harassed anybody in this manner, and let us not allow selected few of
them to destroy those good feelings of community.

Jean

Re: 70 inactive GNU packages to be decommis ?

[Jean Louis]

* bendik...@vfemail.net  [2019-09-05 22:57]:
> After bit more research total 98 Official GNU packages found to be inactive
> for at least 5 years.
> 
> 54 were never part og Debian

Debian is not GNU.org or FSF, do you understand? Those are 2 different
groups, 2 different organizations, with differences in their policies,
political views and activities.

When you say "inactive" for at least 5 years, does that mean you
measure they are active only if they are part of Debian?

Debian is different organization, though it was sponsored by FSF, that
I know, but is different.

Let me say that in last 2 years, I used several of those packages that
you listed by thinking as not being useful.

Let me say that I did not use Debian for years. I do not consider
Debian any reference for FSF to publish or not publish certain
software.

Jean

Re: 70 inactive GNU packages to be decommis ?

[Jean Louis]

* bendik...@vfemail.net  [2019-09-06 09:18]:
> I can not directly respont to Jose E. Marchesi, I have get no mail.
> 
> The fact alone that it is part of Debian says ferret has its use. Although
> the popularity is declining.
> It is interesting to mention at ferrets website that it is used by a
> university, I did not check if this is the case.
> 
> ferret on Debian is orphaned and ferret on GNU feels orphaned too.

The notion that GNU software which is not packaged by Debian GNU/Linux
shall be decomissioned is wrong.

Same is with the "usage statistics" provided only by Debian. 

-- 
Thanks,
Jean Louis

Re: 70 inactive GNU packages to be decommis ?

[Jean Louis]

On September 4, 2019 6:08:50 AM UTC, Nala Ginrut  wrote:
>
>I'm the author and maintainer of GNU XmlAT, I've been considering
>obsolete it for years. And I'd like to add other new meaningful project
>to
>GNU.
>
>Here's a brief reason.
>XmlAT was used to convert XML to s-expr as an intermediate
>presentation for multiple cases. And it can be output to other
>formats. However, it's a bit outdated, because nowadays the industry
>use
>JSON for that case, and it works well.

I am not sure that there is no use for such converters. Document preprocessors 
are used often for years silently, without promotion. For example ePerl is 
since decades and I still have usage of ePerl on certain pages. 

I am quietly using for years Lisp data structures to store information 
submitted from websites, then it gets encrypted and sent by email. No database 
involved. Nobody knows that because it just works for years. 

Many converters are not promoted and they are widely used. It is impossible to 
know it just by observing what is popular.

But if your software was never published then probably nobody got possibility 
to even try it. Send me sources to see it please. I have one particular need to 
try it out.

Jean

Re: 70 inactive GNU packages to be decommis ?

[Jean Louis]

On September 4, 2019 6:08:50 AM UTC, Nala Ginrut  wrote:
>
>I'm the author and maintainer of GNU XmlAT, I've been considering
>obsolete it for years. And I'd like to add other new meaningful project
>to
>GNU.
>
>Here's a brief reason.
>XmlAT was used to convert XML to s-expr as an intermediate
>presentation for multiple cases. And it can be output to other
>formats. However, it's a bit outdated, because nowadays the industry
>use
>JSON for that case, and it works well.
>
>So we don't need GNU XmlAT anymore. I would polish my other projects
>and
>offer some to replact GNU XmlAT.

Thanks Nala,

There is no source for XmlAT anywhere published. I am using only Lisp and 
sometimes Scheme, such software could be of use in website revision systems, 
and also in conversion of HTML to SEXPR when one wish to provide structured 
document with backlinks with ability to finely grained link to specific 
paragraphs.

But without sources of not even possible to try it out.

Jean

Re: 70 inactive GNU packages to be decommis ?

[Jean Louis]

* bendik...@vfemail.net  [2019-09-03 22:41]:
>  Quoting a...@gnu.org:
> 
> > If package is not in Debian GNU/Linux, for me this indicates nothing
> >   that relates to GNU packages, unless there is some specific discussion
> >   related to such specific package, or if there is specific bug report.
> > Debian is also a GNU/Linux distribution that we do not recommend.
> 
> You might not recommend, but I use Trisquel. Depends on Debian. The question
> is, does GNU want us to spent time on those projects, or Is that precious
> time better spent elsewhere.

I do not have any function in the FSF, yet I am sure that it is
commendable if you include some of GNU packages in some of free system
distributions if they are missing somewhere, you may always at least
propose for a package to be included. Or you could maintain such
package.

Some software programs are finished, the only time you wish to spend
there is either using it, learning about it or maybe improving it. But
not every piece of software need to be improved. It can just work.

Jean

Re: 70 inactive GNU packages to be decommis ?

[Jean Louis]

* Alfred M. Szmidt  [2019-09-03 22:33]:
>If package is not in Debian GNU/Linux, for me this indicates nothing
>that relates to GNU packages, unless there is some specific discussion
>related to such specific package, or if there is specific bug report.
> 
> Debian is also a GNU/Linux distribution that we do not recommend.

Is it right to say "we do not recommend"? Would it be better to say
that it is not endorsed by the FSF as fully free distribution as they
do not follow free system distribution guidelines[1], just thinking.

The words "recommend" and "endorse" may be synonyms. I think the FSF
does not recommend any of the free system distributions[2] but endorse
all of them. That is my understanding.

Or I could say that FSF recommends all of them, which somehow does not
sound logical to recommend all of system distributions. So there is
some difference in "recommend" vs "endorse".

Reasons for not endorsing Debian are written here:
https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html

Even that is sad state of matter considering that the FSF has funded
the Debian GNU/Linux in its beginning. But then I am asking also why
then such development happened that Debian started including non-free
software.

Jean

Footnotes:
[1]  https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html

[2]  https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html

Re: 70 inactive GNU packages to be decommis ?

[Jean Louis]

* bendik...@vfemail.net  [2019-09-03 22:09]:
> I dont know if this is the right way reply
> My idea is that the absent of those in a distribution (some of those are
> removed by Debian) might indicate stability issues or not usefull enough, so
> maybe there are better existing options.

> (At least reftex is fully integrated in Emacs and some are just GNU meta
> pages.)

I think that those packages are fine, as long as even potentially
usable to somebody.

If package is not in Debian GNU/Linux, for me this indicates nothing
that relates to GNU packages, unless there is some specific discussion
related to such specific package, or if there is specific bug report.

You are free to become maintainer for GNU distributions, you can apply
as maintainer and include some of those packages in various GNU
distributions. Why not? Majority of such distributions are founded on
voluntary work anyway. You can do it.

Jean

Re: 70 inactive GNU packages to be decommis ?

[Jean Louis]

* Alfred M. Szmidt  [2019-09-03 21:26]:
>The following GNU packages seem inactive for at least 5 years and are  
>at least (most probably) not part of Debian.
> 
> Neither of those are good metrics or reasons to decommision a package.

I also agree on that, there is no reason.

Software need not be updated all the time. Some software just
works.

Some maybe cannot be compiled due to some changes in compiler, then
such bug shall be reported.

It would be good that software is included in any distributions, that
is choice of distributions, but also could be promoted by anybody who
supports free software and GNU project.

-- 
Thanks,
Jean Louis

Re: 70 inactive GNU packages to be decommis ?

[Jean Louis]

* bendik...@vfemail.net  [2019-09-03 20:41]:
> You can also use: https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/
> 
> The following GNU packages seem inactive for at least 5 years and
> are at least (most probably) not part of Debian.

https://www.gnu.org/s/alive

Alive is usable program. What means "inactive"? If program is
finished, do you expect more development?

https://www.gnu.org/s/anubis

What is wrong with Anubis?

https://www.gnu.org/s/archimedes
https://www.gnu.org/s/avl

For above 2 I don't know anything wrong.

https://www.gnu.org/s/ballandpaddle

Above one, I could not compile last time. But I tried compiling it
within last year or little more.

In general, many of those packages are working software. If they are
not packaged in distributions such as fully free system distributions,
but also other distributions, it decreases their findability, so they
become less useful, nevertheless many have potential to be useful.

Jean

Re: 70 inactive GNU packages to be decommis ?

[Jean Louis]

* bendik...@vfemail.net  [2019-09-03 20:41]:
> You can also use: https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/
> 
> The following GNU packages seem inactive for at least 5 years and
> are at least (most probably) not part of Debian.

Let me make few links for easier review.

https://www.gnu.org/s/alive
https://www.gnu.org/s/anubis
https://www.gnu.org/s/archimedes
https://www.gnu.org/s/avl
https://www.gnu.org/s/ballandpaddle
https://www.gnu.org/s/bpel2owfn
https://www.gnu.org/s/ccide
https://www.gnu.org/s/cim
https://www.gnu.org/s/combine
https://www.gnu.org/s/dap
https://www.gnu.org/s/edma
https://www.gnu.org/s/fontutils
https://www.gnu.org/s/garpd
https://www.gnu.org/s/gift
https://www.gnu.org/s/gmediaserver
https://www.gnu.org/s/gnatsweb
https://www.gnu.org/s/gnowsys
https://www.gnu.org/s/gnu-crypto
https://www.gnu.org/s/gnuae
https://www.gnu.org/s/gnubatch
https://www.gnu.org/s/gnue
https://www.gnu.org/s/gnump3d
https://www.gnu.org/s/gnuprologjava
https://www.gnu.org/s/gnuschool
https://www.gnu.org/s/gnusound
https://www.gnu.org/s/gnuspool
https://www.gnu.org/s/gnutrition
https://www.gnu.org/s/goptical
https://www.gnu.org/s/grabcomics
https://www.gnu.org/s/greg
https://www.gnu.org/s/gsegrafix
https://www.gnu.org/s/guile-rpc
https://www.gnu.org/s/gurgle
https://www.gnu.org/s/halifax
https://www.gnu.org/s/leg
https://www.gnu.org/s/libxmi
https://www.gnu.org/s/marst
https://www.gnu.org/s/maverik
https://www.gnu.org/s/metaexchange
https://www.gnu.org/s/mifluz
https://www.gnu.org/s/network
https://www.gnu.org/s/oleo
https://www.gnu.org/s/panorama
https://www.gnu.org/s/pascal
https://www.gnu.org/s/pdf
https://www.gnu.org/s/phantom (phantom_home)
https://www.gnu.org/s/pipo
https://www.gnu.org/s/polyxmass
https://www.gnu.org/s/proxyknife
https://www.gnu.org/s/pythonwebkit
https://www.gnu.org/s/quickthreads
https://www.gnu.org/s/reftex
https://www.gnu.org/s/rottlog
https://www.gnu.org/s/rpge
https://www.gnu.org/s/sather
https://www.gnu.org/s/serveez
https://www.gnu.org/s/shmm
https://www.gnu.org/s/spacechart
https://www.gnu.org/s/stalkerfs
https://www.gnu.org/s/stump
https://www.gnu.org/s/superopt
https://www.gnu.org/s/talkfilters
https://www.gnu.org/s/termcap
https://www.gnu.org/s/termutils
https://www.gnu.org/s/thales
https://www.gnu.org/s/trans-coord
https://www.gnu.org/s/websocket4j
https://www.gnu.org/s/webstump
https://www.gnu.org/s/xlogmaster
https://www.gnu.org/s/xmlat


Jean

Re: Counting software and the laws

[Jean Louis]

Dear Znavko,

That is important to stress, I understand the
situation. It is similar in many other countries.

On Tue, Jan 01, 2019 at 08:13:54PM +0100, zna...@tutanota.com wrote:
> The problem is that only one this product is
> updating with the laws in Russia.

Russia is using double entry accounting system, so
whatever laws and changes are there, it can be
updated and the one doing entries can update it.

So there is already free software such as
https://www.gnucash.org and several others that
certainly could be used in any country.

Basics of accounting are same everywhere.

What can change by the law are methods of
depreciation or methods of calculating salaries,
or tax percentages.

Software that is following the laws is not as
universal. But still Gnucash allows modifications
and once could do special reports according to new
changes.

Gnucash has some Russian translations, I am sure
it is used in Russia by smarter accountants.

Jean

Re: CloudFlare, not good choice, (Re: [security-discuss] Freedom 0: the utilitarian vs. the deontologist)

[Jean Louis]

So much about security on CloudFlare:

https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/5vu3yn/cloudbleed_seceurity_bug_cloudflare_reverse/

and https://github.com/pirate/sites-using-cloudflare



Jean

CloudFlare, not good choice, (Re: [security-discuss] Freedom 0: the utilitarian vs. the deontologist)

[Jean Louis]

On Thu, Mar 09, 2017 at 09:53:00PM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> > Indeed, and we are not required to make it work for everyone.
> 
> You've misunderstood the problem.  It's not that GNU Radio Foundation,
> Inc. is not taking actions to make something work, it's that GRFI has
> taken actions to break something that was working.  They have
> "stopped" tor wget users from making use of freedom 0.

It is sad to hear that "we are not required to make it work for
everyone". I understand it is personal opinion of Alfred, as I am sure
there is full intention by the FSF to make software available to
everyone.

While it is not directly relevant to Freedom 0 that a software package
cannot be downloaded in some cases, by using Tor, it is lack of policy
on FSF/GNU side, to permit GNU software to be distributed from such
freedom denying service providers such as CloudFlare.

Let us review what this page says on GNU.org website:
http://www.gnu.org/server/select-language.html?callback=/

Quoting:

If you're concerned about your privacy on the Web you can try the Tor
Browser Bundle available from https://torproject.org/. Among many
other improvements over generic browsers with regard to privacy, the
TBB comes configured to appear to be like a Windows-based, US-English
browser.

You're right that the language setting of your browser can be used by
some sites or third-parties to identify your specific browser and
target you for advertising. Tor provides the safest way we know to
avoid such targeting. Nevertheless, the GNU project does not use this
nor any other targeting methods, not even cookies (exception made of
the optional language override mentioned above): we simply care for
our users and have no interest in spying on you. The Accept-Language
header is a common way to localize contents according to user
preferences. You can learn more about it from the W3C.

End of quote.

"We simply care about our users and have no interest in spying on
you".

This alone is to show that there is a somewhat a lack of policy on
GNU/FSF side, on how this care is implemented. As it should not be
just implemented on www.gnu.org, rather it should stretch to all GNU
software equivale and consistently.

Finally, when Tor is recommended by GNU website, than Tor should be
allowed to access each and every GNU software piece.

Discarding this matter too easy "if it does not work for you, it is
not my problem" -- is simply not the solution.

Myself, I can hardly understand why GNU packages are spread around on
multiple sites. I was downloading many of them myself, and many
websites did not even work. Software get lost that way, some of
software become vaporware. It should rather have its place on GNU
servers.

CloudFlare is deteriorating the freedom to access the software, and it
should be good decision for GNU software NOT to host or use CloudFlare
services. 

Jean

Re: Freedom 0: the utilitarian vs. the deontologist

[Jean Louis]

On Thu, Mar 09, 2017 at 04:03:34AM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
>GNU Radio Foundation, Inc. is denying freedom 0 to GNU wget users.
>The only GNU Radio users being denied freedom 0 are those who are
>also GNU wget users.
> 
> 1) GNU wget users are not being "denied" access to GNU radio via Tor.
>Here is me downloading GNU radio via Tor using GNU wget:
> 
>   $ wget http://gnuradio.org/releases/gnuradio/gnuradio-3.7.10.1.tar.gz
>   --2017-03-09 09:49:15--  
> http://gnuradio.org/releases/gnuradio/gnuradio-3.7.10.1.tar.gz
>   Resolving gnuradio.org... 104.28.6.113, 104.28.7.113, 
> 2400:cb00:2048:1::681c:771, ...
>   Connecting to gnuradio.org|104.28.6.113|:80... connected.
>   HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
>   Length: 4272430 (4.1M) [application/x-gzip]
>   Saving to: ‘gnuradio-3.7.10.1.tar.gz’
>   
>   gnuradio-3.7.10.1.t 100%[===>]   4.07M  4.04MB/sin 1.0s 
>
>   
>   2017-03-09 09:49:16 (4.04 MB/s) - ‘gnuradio-3.7.10.1.tar.gz’ saved
>   [4272430/4272430]

That it works on your side, it means not it works on someone's else
side.

That is not a proof that you have used Tor, and overall, there are
many Tor exits, which are treated different, unjustified, by
Cloudfront.

> 2) By saying that the GNU Radio Foundation is "denying access" you are
>saying that they have activley taken decisions to make it
>impossible, or very hard to download GNU Radio, they have done no
>such thing.

I agree fully that they are not doing it actively, but also not
proactively finding better solution to serve the files.

Jean Louis

Re: state of gnuradio freedom and security issues (was: gnuradio project DoS..)

[Jean Louis]

On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 10:11:37AM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
>problem 1) Freedom 0: GNU Radio Foundation, Inc. ("GRFI") is stopping
> GNU wget users, lynx, and cURL users from using their
> browser software (wget, lynx, and curl) how they want in
> the course of obtaining the GNU Radio manual.
> 
> They are not doing anything of the sort.

Alfred, I cannot share that opinion, however, I am sure that GNU radio
maintainers, and those making decision to use CloudFlare, maybe lack
the information.

As there is no reason to forbid Tor users to download software versus
not-Tor users. So GNU Radio is not doing that intentionally, that is
up to Cloudflare.

Cloudflare may be easily avoided, it is not Tor friendly, so I would
avoid it.

There is some truth that overlook or lack of attention to inform
oneself of what Cloudflare is doing exactly, may cause some users not
to get the software. That is not in the nature of GNU project, where
the intention is to spread the usable software.

So, the question is not to be addressed only to Cloudflare, but also
to GNU radio website maintainers, as change is quick and
possible. There are many different CDN networks, even one may create
it self. I can just guess, that Cloudflare was choosen for its "free
of charge" service for one website, in that case it is a poor choice.

>problem 2) GRFI violates the GFDL requirement that the manual be
> distributed with the software.
> 
> GNU Radio's manual is not licensed under the GFDL, thus any
> requirement put forth by the GFDL is irrelevant.

I did not see any "manual" how I expected it, rather scattered
documentation which I cannot find from the front page of GNU Radio.


>problem 3) GRFI violates the GFDL requirement that the manual be
> available in a simple format.
> 
> GNU Radio's manual is not licensed under the GFDL, thus any
> requirement put forth by the GFDL is irrelevant.

I do think it is relevant, as GNU software should comply to policies as
set by GNU project. The lack of proper licensing does not imply it
should not be there. That is why all this conversation.

The conversation process has discovered also other "holes", so all
that may be improved quickly, when attention is put on it.

>problem 4) The GRFI is DoS attacking (and discriminating against)
> users of GNU wget, lynx, and cURL.
> 
> They are not doing anything of the sort.

Denial of Service usually refers to hosted services, but not at all
times. It may refer to denying users to access the website, or making
such tricks, that some users cannot access the website. It is usually
intentional.

GNU Radio probably has no such intentions, there is just the side
effect that Tor users, and users of simple browsers cannot access some
information on their website. That is then to be complained to
maintainers of the website, maybe they put attention on it, and change
something.

I can well imagine Tor routers in future, so there will be more an
more Tor users, not less, there is no reason at all to support the
Cloudflare, that is discriminating Tor users.

Finally, captcha are dehumanizing service, that is the only place
where one need to answer "I am not a robot", so they put a robot to
ask human if human is robot or not, it makes no sense to me. Just like
one time, I have seen a woman coming to post office in Eastern Europe,
to take the retirement fund for the month, and the post officer told
her to first bring the paper evidence that she is alive. She went back
home, slowly walking, the old woman.

We expect human website visitors, and we shall allow also robotic
downloading, there is nothing wrong with it, it helps distributions
distribute the software. Captchas are not necessary, and for reasons
of captacha's there are many other solutions.

Jean Louis

Re: [security-discuss] gnuradio project DoS attacks GNU wget users

[Jean Louis]

On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 12:55:19PM +0100, Anonymous wrote:
> Alfred M. Szmidt said:
> 
> >Your PDP-10 analogy is not a constructed limitation (as an IP
> >treatment policy is), it's actually a "limitation" due to someone
> >else not doing some work for you, which makes it so perversely
> >different as to only harm your position.  This false analogy
> >clearly puts desperation on display.
> > 
> > Cloudfare is under no obligation to provide any type of access to you
> > or anyone else.  
> 
> It doesn't matter whether there is; lack of such an obligation doesn't
> change the kind of limitation in place.

Main problem of a GNU project being hosted on Cloudflare, is not the
Cloudflare itself, rather the GNU project policies or lack of
supervision of application of those policies.

GNU project is, how I see it, pretty liberal, and leaves much freedom
to maintainers. I would not, I would keep policies in, so that project
overall benefits.

Myself, I would not let GNU software being hosted "anywhere", and that
alone would spare all the discussion of Cloudflare. The documentation
would be consistent to each of other packages. Doxygen would be
allowed, but other common formats shall be available as if 95% of GNU
software have those formats, then each package shall have it for
consistency.

Let us look the proprietary hosting software Github, and their
"policies", whatever they are doing in business, they are marketing it
well, and provide consistencies in hosting. Even they are not "one
project", they gather many people together to host in consistent
manner.

Review the reaction of gvpe maintainer here:
http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/gvpe/ and then his self-hosted
project: http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/gvpe.html

Thus it is not easy to even enforce a policy by the GNU project to GNU
software maintainers, when the underlying infrastructure, the hosting
services, are not adequate for them, or if such do not deliver what is
promised, or require considerable more efforts then expected.

On the other hand, the website http://gnuradio.org/ is not providing a
reference to documentation. It is not enough to have a beautiful site
without access to documentation. Even searching for documentation
gives no result, just try: http://gnuradio.org/?s=documentation

Thus there are services to be improved on GNU site, to attract the
developers to host on GNU, or to enforce policies to host on GNU, at
least the mirror software and website, documentation, and there are
things to be improved on GNU software maintainers. Such as "access to
documentation".

Jean Louis

Re: state of gnuradio freedom and security issues (was: gnuradio project DoS..)

[Jean Louis]

On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 09:45:49AM -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>  3.3 It's impossible to create a non-ugly website with the search
>  functionality offered without departing from simple HTML to
>  use javascript.

Here, I am not referring to GNU radio. When a documentation is well
summarized, and has sections well described, search may not be
necessary.

Further, when a documentation has a single HTML file, like most GNU
software packages have such, generated from Texinfo, such file is
easily searched in any browser. There can be also a single text file,
and it is easily searched.

And in the end, to make a search feature, it should be very simple
matter on any web server to make search even without javascript for
which license is not known. Simple POST/GET to the small script
greping the files may be quick search solution.

More complex search engines are such as Hyper Estraier, and many
others available. Full self-hosted search feature is good to have on
any website.

On any search field on the Internet page, the usability and
accessibility policies and common sense is not recommending
javascript. It breakest standard features of browsing and disables
access to many users.

Jean Louis

Re: state of gnuradio freedom and security issues (was: gnuradio project DoS..)

[Jean Louis]

On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 09:45:49AM -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>  3.3 It's impossible to create a non-ugly website with the search
>  functionality offered without departing from simple HTML to
>  use javascript.

Here, I am not referring to GNU radio. When a documentation is well
summarized, and has sections well described, search may not be
necessary.

Further, when a documentation has a single HTML file, like most GNU
software packages have such, generated from Texinfo, such file is
easily searched in any browser. There can be also a single text file,
and it is easily searched.

And in the end, to make a search feature, it should be very simple
matter on any web server to make search even without javascript for
which license is not known. Simple POST/GET to the small script
greping the files may be quick search solution.

More complex search engines are such as Hyper Estraier, and many
others available. Full self-hosted search feature is good to have on
any website.

On any search field on the Internet page, the usability and
accessibility policies and common sense is not recommending
javascript. It breakest standard features of browsing and disables
access to many users.

Jean Louis

Re: GFDL holds the answer about fancy javascript (was: gnuradio project..)

[Jean Louis]

On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 08:32:51PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > http://gnuradio.org/
>   > "Free Software - GNU Radio is Free Software. That means it’s free as
>   > in price, and you are free to use & modify it as you wish."
>   > -- end of quote
> 
>   > May I correct you? It does not mean that it is "free as in price",
>   > there is some serious lack of understanding what free software
>   > means.
> 
> The "free" in "free software" refers to freedom -- not price.  So that
> quote is not really correct.  It's possible, though, that I said those
> words, 30 years ago before I understood how best to deal with the two
> meanings of the word.  I will take a look.

Those words are on the website http://gnuradio.org -- which shows
misunderstanding from the manager of the website or the GNU Radio
organization.

Words have simply different meanings and meanings are understood from
the context. It means there is nothing wrong by using the word "free"
in the context of freedom, it is on the reader to understand that
words have multiple meanings and to find out the proper definition
from the context.

When "free" is used in the context of "GNU Radio is Free & Open
Source" -- it is wrong for the GNU package to be advertised like
that. Exactly that quote is the prominent quote on GNU Radio
website. "Free and open source" -- indicates it is free of charge in
addition to having source disclosed. Instead of "free software" and
references to free software definitions.

John Gilmore has financed the project GNU Radio, and he says on his
website: http://www.toad.com/gnu/

"Free Software means software that comes with freedom -- not software
that has a price of 0. In particular, it means software that gives
everyone the source code (what programmers need to keep a program
running and improve on it) and the right to use the program, modify
it, and give or sell copies to anyone. The new buzzword for this is
"Open Source", but it's been called "Free Software" for decades."

It would be good for GNU Radio's website maintainers to understand
what those definitions mean and to modify the website accordingly.

Please maintainers, do it so.

Jean Louis

Re: GFDL holds the answer about fancy javascript (was: gnuradio project..)

[Jean Louis]

On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 08:29:13PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > I was reviewing this link of documentation, and could not find any
>   > relation to a license:
>   > http://gnuradio.org/doc/doxygen/index.html
> 
> Can you find the source code for this in the source repo?
> 
>   > However, documentation within the package gnuradio-3.7.10.1.tar.gz is
> 
> Is that the source code of the documentation in
> http://gnuradio.org/doc/doxygen/index.html?
> 
> I am guessing that you already know the answer, but I don't -- I have
> never seen either of them.

Source code is in gnuradio-3.7.10.1/docs/doxygen/other, if I am no
mistaken.

And GNU radio package is to be found here:
http://gnuradio.org/releases/gnuradio/gnuradio-3.7.10.1.tar.gz

Source code of documentation is not in simple format, it seems to be
Doxygen format. Doxygen extracts documentation from C++ files.

Jean Louis

Re: GFDL holds the answer about fancy javascript (was: gnuradio project..)

[Jean Louis]

On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 12:01:46AM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > using Doxygen for generating documentation in a program with some 
> different 
>   > license without the program itself becoming GPL-2 as well.
> 
>   > I believe Doxygen should clarify the licenses. Otherwise, one could argue 
> that 
>   > any program/library that ever used Doxygen to generate documentation is 
> now 
>   > GPL-2 or later.
> 
> Yes.  I'd like to ask the developers to agree to install such patches,
> and look for someone to write the patches.  Can someone tell me how to
> contact them?

Contact information:

Dimitri van Heesch
dimi...@stack.nl

or http://www.stack.nl/~dimitri/doxygen/support.html

Jean Louis

Re: GFDL holds the answer about fancy javascript (was: gnuradio project..)

[Jean Louis]

On Sat, Mar 04, 2017 at 12:10:45AM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > I cannot find the documentation license on the documentation pages.
> 
> Can you please tell me the URLs of the pages in question?

I was reviewing this link of documentation, and could not find any
relation to a license:
http://gnuradio.org/doc/doxygen/index.html

I just guess that documentation is not licensed under GFDL at all, as
I have greped in the software package and did not find references. And
I do not say it should be, just stating the fact.

The assumption is that documentation is licensed under the GNU GPL
just like all the software in the package.

However, documentation within the package gnuradio-3.7.10.1.tar.gz is
not in easy readable format, it requires doxygen to be generated first
to be readable and accessible, it becomes usable after building the
software.

Jean Louis

Re: GFDL holds the answer about fancy javascript (was: gnuradio project..)

[Jean Louis]

On Fri, Mar 03, 2017 at 12:34:39AM +0100, Anonymous wrote:
> Filip Brcic said:
> 
> > There is absolutely no way to make that functionality without
> > javascript, unless you want it to look really ugly,
> 
> If it's the cosmetics of fancy javascript frills vs. being functional,
> then the answer as to which wins that contest in the GFDL:
> 
>   https://static.fsf.org/nosvn/directory/fdl-1.3-standalone.html
> 
> (search for "simple html")
> 
> If that should be overturned, the GFDL should be updated first, as
> opposed to projects violating it.

GNU radio has a nice website, and organization.

I cannot find the documentation license on the documentation pages.

I am in Tanzania, and waiting for cdnjs.cloudflare.com is taking
terribly long time, like minutes, so with the "normal browser" I
cannot even access the website. I am trying to find out why.

If I don't use "normal browser", but use Dillo or Elinks, I can access
the website, with limitation to "javascript" links.

I would like to add a friendly reminder, that when GNU radio is
advertised as "free & open source", it is creating a confusion of what
free software is, it may give to people an idea that it is "free of
charge" in addition of being "open source".

You also have on the front page, quoting:

http://gnuradio.org/
"Free Software - GNU Radio is Free Software. That means it’s free as
in price, and you are free to use & modify it as you wish."
-- end of quote

May I correct you? It does not mean that it is "free as in price",
there is some serious lack of understanding what free software
means. It is free as in liberty. In fact my Wordnet dictionary over
here shows the first definition of free as "(38) free -- (able to act
at will; not hampered; not under compulsion or restraint; "free
enterprise"; "a free port"; "a free country"; "I have an hour free";
"free will"; "free of racism"; "feel free to stay as long as you
wish"; "a free choice")" and in the third definition "complimentary,
costless, free, gratis, gratuitous -- (costing nothing; "complimentary
tickets"; "free admission")".

The Free Software is free as in the first definition, in regards to
constraints, in regards to liberty of what one may do with the
software. Not in regards to pricing or charges for software. 

While it just happens that is often distributed "free of charge" the
words free do not refer to priceless, or free of charge. There is
nothing wrong in selling free software. The first Deluxe Distribution
of GNU software were sold for nice US $5,000, the compiled binaries on
the CD with all the software.

References:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

It is unclear from the website under which license the documentation
has been published, I could not find it. I can see that everything is
copyright to GNU radio foundation, with "all rights
reserved". Somebody may wrongly understand the licensing and think
that "all rights reserved", also apply to documentation.

The website is well organized, only not well functionable, at least
from here in Tanzania, it is "loading" all the time.

I hope to get the required dongle to try it out.

Jean Louis

Re: gnuradio project DoS attacks GNU wget users

[Jean Louis]

On Thu, Mar 02, 2017 at 02:00:36PM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
>It is impossible to access full documentation on that page by using
>lynx. Have you tried using links?
> 
> I just accessed the link from lynx. so where where you get that it is
> "impossible" I have no idea.
> 
>I mean, it is Hypertext Markup Language, and all links are
>"javascript:void(0)"
> 
> That is blatantly false.

Sorry, it is not "blatantly false", review the links:

 All Classes Namespaces Files Functions Variables Typedefs
 Enumerations Enumerator Friends Macros Modules Pages

As none of the above are accessible.

Anyway, javascript links are poor website design.

Jean Louis

Re: gnuradio project DoS attacks GNU wget users

[Jean Louis]

On Thu, Mar 02, 2017 at 10:04:28AM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
> I suggest you go and visit the actual GNU Radio page, which is fully
> usable in Lynx for example.  You can also browse the manual directly
> by building GNU radio.
> 
>   http://gnuradio.org/doc/doxygen/page_exploring_gnuradio.html
> 
> And since GNU Radio is licensed under the GNU GPL version 3, it
> already obides by the most basic tenants of the GNU project.

It is impossible to access full documentation on that page by using
lynx. Have you tried using links?

I mean, it is Hypertext Markup Language, and all links are
"javascript:void(0)"

Jean Louis