[GnuDIP] Potential for Self-Registration to be Used as Go Between for E-mailAttack
Last night it appears that my installation of GnuDIP was used to send a large number of E-mails to a victim. While those GnuDIP web pages that can only be entered through the login page cannot be anonymously abused. it is now clear that the self registration page can be. A program can "GET" and "POST" that page repeatedly to send an E-mail bombardment to a third party. The bombardment will seem to come from the GnuDIP site. I have disabled self registration on my site. I will try to find a way to make sure that a human being is using the page. Suggestions are welcome. Sorry about this. -- Creighton MacDonnell http://macdonnell.ca/ ___ Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm -- GnuDIP Mailing List http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist
Re: [GnuDIP] Potential for Self-Registration to be Used as Go Between for E-mailAttack
Hi. I have given some tought to your project over the past months and I never liked that self-registration idea. It seems like you are trying to provide the technology and the retailing environment and are not doing either one particularly well. I think you would have a good and usefull product if it worked, but I remember from experience that installation was very cumbersome. Production environments (ISPs and ASPs) only use products that provide snappy flawless installation and equally snappy archiving and restoration. The correct way of doing what you do is to remove the self-registration features altogether and provide some simple provisioning scripts to manipulate the database. Once you have that, package it properly with installation scripts, provisioning script documentation and take it to ISPs and ASPs and have them integrate it into their service networks as they see fit. Usually ISPs and ASPs already have the end-user interfaces and they want to expand it by adding more products and services to it. Since 99% of the value in what you do is in the DynIP service everything else is just distraction. Kind of like having a kiosk on the street for selling light bulbs. You make light-bulbs. Package it the way other light bulb companies package their products and put them where the other light bulbs are so that people can buy it and you can receive the product. When you have that, promote is as hard as you can to generate sales and recover expenses so that you can move on to developing the next technology or refining what you have "profitably". You will have a lot more success with your product that way. Creighton MacDonnell wrote: > Last night it appears that my installation of GnuDIP was used to send a > large number of E-mails to a victim. > > While those GnuDIP web pages that can only be entered through the login > page cannot be anonymously abused. it is now clear that the self > registration page can be. A program can "GET" and "POST" that page > repeatedly to send an E-mail bombardment to a third party. The > bombardment will seem to come from the GnuDIP site. > > I have disabled self registration on my site. > > I will try to find a way to make sure that a human being is using the > page. Suggestions are welcome. > > Sorry about this. > > -- > Creighton MacDonnell > http://macdonnell.ca/ > > ___ > > Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference > August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm > > -- > GnuDIP Mailing List > http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist ___ Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm -- GnuDIP Mailing List http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist
[GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost
I trust you are aware that GnuDIP is is not a commercial product? It is OpenSource and FREE. One company has asked me to install GnuDIP for use by their customers and are PAYING ME to make changes for them. In fact, to make GnuDIP more useful to that client I have in fact added a capability for "remote maintenance", so that they do not have to use "Self Registration". That company has been generous and forward thinking enough to allow me to include this in the OpenSource version of GnuDIP. Are you offering me money? Are you offering to help? Aren't you the guy who sent me several E-mails a day for several days while you ere trying to install GnuDIP? Didn't you even ask me to LOG ON TO YOUR SYSTEM to do it for you? Most of the work involved in setting up GnuDIP has nothing to do with GnuDIP. It is about BIND, Sandmail, MySQL, syslog. If you know of software that sets up BIND autmatically, what is it? There are many sites I know of where no one had any trouble. Or if they did, they contributed a solution. If you don't want to use GnuDIP, great! Get off this mailing list. Do you at least know how to do that? Endre Palfi wrote: > > Hi. I have given some tought to your project over the past months and I > never liked that self-registration idea. It seems like you are trying to > provide the technology and the retailing environment and are not doing > either one particularly well. I think you would have a good and usefull > product if it worked, but I remember from experience that installation was > very cumbersome. Production environments (ISPs and ASPs) only use products > that provide snappy flawless installation and equally snappy archiving and > restoration. > > The correct way of doing what you do is to remove the self-registration > features altogether and provide some simple provisioning scripts to > manipulate the database. Once you have that, package it properly with > installation scripts, provisioning script documentation and take it to ISPs > and ASPs and have them integrate it into their service networks as they see > fit. Usually ISPs and ASPs already have the end-user interfaces and they > want to expand it by adding more products and services to it. Since 99% of > the value in what you do is in the DynIP service everything else is just > distraction. Kind of like having a kiosk on the street for selling light > bulbs. You make light-bulbs. Package it the way other light bulb companies > package their products and put them where the other light bulbs are so that > people can buy it and you can receive the product. > > When you have that, promote is as hard as you can to generate sales and > recover expenses so that you can move on to developing the next technology > or refining what you have "profitably". > > You will have a lot more success with your product that way. > > Creighton MacDonnell wrote: > > > Last night it appears that my installation of GnuDIP was used to send a > > large number of E-mails to a victim. > > > > While those GnuDIP web pages that can only be entered through the login > > page cannot be anonymously abused. it is now clear that the self > > registration page can be. A program can "GET" and "POST" that page > > repeatedly to send an E-mail bombardment to a third party. The > > bombardment will seem to come from the GnuDIP site. > > > > I have disabled self registration on my site. > > > > I will try to find a way to make sure that a human being is using the > > page. Suggestions are welcome. > > > > Sorry about this. > > > > -- > > Creighton MacDonnell > > http://macdonnell.ca/ > > > > ___ > > > > Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference > > August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm > > > > -- > > GnuDIP Mailing List > > http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist > > ___ > > Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference > August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm > > -- > GnuDIP Mailing List > http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist -- Creighton MacDonnell http://macdonnell.ca/ ___ Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm -- GnuDIP Mailing List http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist
Re: [GnuDIP] Potential for Self-Registration to be Used as Go Between for E-mailAttack
On Monday 27 May 2002 22:21, Endre Palfi wrote: > Hi. I have given some tought to your project over the past months and > I never liked that self-registration idea. It seems like you are > trying to provide the technology and the retailing environment and > are not doing either one particularly well. I think you would have a > good and usefull product if it worked, but I remember from experience > that installation was very cumbersome. Production environments (ISPs > and ASPs) only use products that provide snappy flawless installation > and equally snappy archiving and restoration. > > The correct way of doing what you do is to remove the > self-registration features altogether and provide some simple > provisioning scripts to manipulate the database. Once you have that, > package it properly with installation scripts, provisioning script > documentation and take it to ISPs and ASPs and have them integrate it > into their service networks as they see fit. Usually ISPs and ASPs > already have the end-user interfaces and they want to expand it by > adding more products and services to it. Since 99% of the value in > what you do is in the DynIP service everything else is just > distraction. Kind of like having a kiosk on the street for selling > light bulbs. You make light-bulbs. Package it the way other light > bulb companies package their products and put them where the other > light bulbs are so that people can buy it and you can receive the > product. > > When you have that, promote is as hard as you can to generate sales > and recover expenses so that you can move on to developing the next > technology or refining what you have "profitably". > > You will have a lot more success with your product that way. > this guy is right - i want my money back! *lol* -- regards Thilo ___ Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm -- GnuDIP Mailing List http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist
[GnuDIP] (no subject)
Hello all, This might be a very odd request but I thought I would pass it along this list before I started work. At o2w.nl we have a user interface system setup that user can use to view many things. I would like to integrate gnudip into the interface. I have looked at the source code of the HTM system and seen that the password authentication is based on MD5. Has anyone actually integrated the websystem into a working other system. The main reason for this integration is that we would like users to only enter their passwords once. I have also noticed the quick login system that is implemented; could this be an easier way of integration? if anyone has any experience then let me know so I choose the easiest and safest method. -- Geordy Korte --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] | ICQ 14458242 http://www.o2w.nl | "Bundeling strengths" |-- ___ Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm -- GnuDIP Mailing List http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist
[GnuDIP] Web Interface integration
Hello all, This might be a very odd request but I thought I would pass it along this list before I started work. At o2w.nl we have a user interface system setup that user can use to view many things. I would like to integrate gnudip into the interface. I have looked at the source code of the HTM system and seen that the password authentication is based on MD5. Has anyone actually integrated the websystem into a working other system. The main reason for this integration is that we would like users to only enter their passwords once. I have also noticed the quick login system that is implemented; could this be an easier way of integration? if anyone has any experience then let me know so I choose the easiest and safest method. -- Geordy Korte --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] | ICQ 14458242 http://www.o2w.nl | "Bundeling strengths" |-- ___ Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm -- GnuDIP Mailing List http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist
Re: [GnuDIP] Web Interface integration
Sorry for the delay in getting your message posted. The Mailman software at SourceForge found it suscpicious for some reason. I am quite busy and don't check the mailing list for held posts that often. It is mostly spam. As I mentioned in a posting a few minutes ago, I have taken some steps towards providing an interface that could be used to manage users from a different web interface - even on another machine. Look at the software again: http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/src/gnudip-2.3.5/maintenance_commands.html http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/src/gnudip-2.3.5/remote.html As I have explained before on this list, I have not been disciplined about bumping up version numbers. I am looking for a volunteer to do release management. I think this interface could be expanded to allow the GnuDIP web interface to to be completely replaced. I have not done this because: * the client who needs this and is paying me to do it does need to go that far * if people put the web interface on the web, there are more pointers to my site Why don't you have a look at the interface now. If you don't think it could be expanded to do the sort of thing you are interested in, SAY SO NOW - before my paying client starts to use it!!! Geordy Korte wrote: > > Hello all, > > This might be a very odd request but I thought I would pass it along this > list before I started work. At o2w.nl we have a user interface system > setup that user can use to view many things. I would like to integrate > gnudip into the interface. I have looked at the source code of the HTM > system and seen that the password authentication is based on MD5. Has > anyone actually integrated the websystem into a working other system. > The main reason for this integration is that we would like users to only > enter their passwords once. I have also noticed the quick login system > that is implemented; could this be an easier way of integration? > > if anyone has any experience then let me know so I choose the easiest and > safest method. > -- > Geordy Korte > > --- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] | ICQ 14458242 > http://www.o2w.nl | "Bundeling strengths" > |-- > > ___ > > Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference > August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm > > -- > GnuDIP Mailing List > http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist -- Creighton MacDonnell http://macdonnell.ca/ ___ Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm -- GnuDIP Mailing List http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist
Re: [GnuDIP] Potential for Self-Registration to be Used as Go Between for E-mailAttack
I see that others have already addressed the "this is not a commercial product response", so that saves me a lot of typing. As far as the self-registration thing is concerned, my take on it is that it is an unnecessary feature. I won't advocate getting rid of it because I'm willing to concede that some may like it, but I'm just fine with leaving it disabled. -- Devin Reade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm -- GnuDIP Mailing List http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist
Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost
Sandmail ? What's that? /me ducks and grins... Regards, Rick PS - Great work btw, keep it up and don't let the bozo's get you down. - Original Message - From: "Creighton MacDonnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 6:02 PM Subject: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost I trust you are aware that GnuDIP is is not a commercial product? It is OpenSource and FREE. One company has asked me to install GnuDIP for use by their customers and are PAYING ME to make changes for them. In fact, to make GnuDIP more useful to that client I have in fact added a capability for "remote maintenance", so that they do not have to use "Self Registration". That company has been generous and forward thinking enough to allow me to include this in the OpenSource version of GnuDIP. Are you offering me money? Are you offering to help? Aren't you the guy who sent me several E-mails a day for several days while you ere trying to install GnuDIP? Didn't you even ask me to LOG ON TO YOUR SYSTEM to do it for you? Most of the work involved in setting up GnuDIP has nothing to do with GnuDIP. It is about BIND, Sandmail, MySQL, syslog. If you know of software that sets up BIND autmatically, what is it? There are many sites I know of where no one had any trouble. Or if they did, they contributed a solution. If you don't want to use GnuDIP, great! Get off this mailing list. Do you at least know how to do that? Endre Palfi wrote: > > Hi. I have given some tought to your project over the past months and I > never liked that self-registration idea. It seems like you are trying to > provide the technology and the retailing environment and are not doing > either one particularly well. I think you would have a good and usefull > product if it worked, but I remember from experience that installation was > very cumbersome. Production environments (ISPs and ASPs) only use products > that provide snappy flawless installation and equally snappy archiving and > restoration. > > The correct way of doing what you do is to remove the self-registration > features altogether and provide some simple provisioning scripts to > manipulate the database. Once you have that, package it properly with > installation scripts, provisioning script documentation and take it to ISPs > and ASPs and have them integrate it into their service networks as they see > fit. Usually ISPs and ASPs already have the end-user interfaces and they > want to expand it by adding more products and services to it. Since 99% of > the value in what you do is in the DynIP service everything else is just > distraction. Kind of like having a kiosk on the street for selling light > bulbs. You make light-bulbs. Package it the way other light bulb companies > package their products and put them where the other light bulbs are so that > people can buy it and you can receive the product. > > When you have that, promote is as hard as you can to generate sales and > recover expenses so that you can move on to developing the next technology > or refining what you have "profitably". > > You will have a lot more success with your product that way. > > Creighton MacDonnell wrote: > > > Last night it appears that my installation of GnuDIP was used to send a > > large number of E-mails to a victim. > > > > While those GnuDIP web pages that can only be entered through the login > > page cannot be anonymously abused. it is now clear that the self > > registration page can be. A program can "GET" and "POST" that page > > repeatedly to send an E-mail bombardment to a third party. The > > bombardment will seem to come from the GnuDIP site. > > > > I have disabled self registration on my site. > > > > I will try to find a way to make sure that a human being is using the > > page. Suggestions are welcome. > > > > Sorry about this. > > > > -- > > Creighton MacDonnell > > http://macdonnell.ca/ > > > > ___ > > > > Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference > > August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm > > > > -- > > GnuDIP Mailing List > > http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist > > ___ > > Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference > August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm > > -- > GnuDIP Mailing List > http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist -- Creighton MacDonnell http://macdonnell.ca/ ___ Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm -- GnuDIP Mailing List http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist ___ Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference August 25-28 in L
[GnuDIP] "Forgotten Password" and "Delete Self" also Optional Now
The version that is on SourceForge now also allows "Forgotten Password" and "Delete Self" to be disabled. Devin Reade wrote: > > I see that others have already addressed the "this is not a > commercial product response", so that saves me a lot of typing. > > As far as the self-registration thing is concerned, my take > on it is that it is an unnecessary feature. I won't advocate > getting rid of it because I'm willing to concede that some > may like it, but I'm just fine with leaving it disabled. > -- > Devin Reade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > ___ > > Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference > August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm > > -- > GnuDIP Mailing List > http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist -- Creighton MacDonnell http://macdonnell.ca/ ___ Don't miss the 2002 Sprint PCS Application Developer's Conference August 25-28 in Las Vegas -- http://devcon.sprintpcs.com/adp/index.cfm -- GnuDIP Mailing List http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/#mailinglist
Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost
I realize the message I sent went to the list instead of you. I intended to send it to you directly, but I made a mistake which I only realized once the email was gone. I was trying to encourage you in what are the things you need to do to make what you do profitable. And yes I was the *bozo* that sent you the emails a while back asking you for help. We used to be an ISP but because of lack of viable technologies we didn't generate enough profits to support our backbone connection so we had to put all of our stuff in storage. Over $5 of brand new stuff. I just contributed by the way. Explaining to you the needs of your prospective market (ISPs and ASPs) and how to shape it so that they would pay for it was my contribution. Also. Not only I contributed that, but I also contributed over $35000 of our profits to Caldera when they went public only to loose every damn penny in less than two years. Linux may be free, but the damn Caldera stocks weren't free when I bought them. Today it's worth a little over $200. So I think I earned the right to speak freely among linux guys. You'll probably think that I'm bullshitting, but I'm not and so I don't care if you call it bs because our tax return doesn't lie. Anyways, you want to kick me off this list. FINE. This list isn't a very active list anyways. In fact today is probably the most amount of posts this list has seen on any given day for months now... and IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF a damn bozo like who is trying to help you by making some suggestions on how to shape your product to make it easier to sell. Creighton MacDonnell wrote: > I trust you are aware that GnuDIP is is not a commercial product? It is > OpenSource and FREE. > > One company has asked me to install GnuDIP for use by their customers > and are PAYING ME to make changes for them. > > In fact, to make GnuDIP more useful to that client I have in fact added > a capability for "remote maintenance", so that they do not have to use > "Self Registration". That company has been generous and forward thinking > enough to allow me to include this in the OpenSource version of GnuDIP. > > Are you offering me money? > > Are you offering to help? > > Aren't you the guy who sent me several E-mails a day for several days > while you ere trying to install GnuDIP? Didn't you even ask me to LOG ON > TO YOUR SYSTEM to do it for you? > > Most of the work involved in setting up GnuDIP has nothing to do with > GnuDIP. It is about BIND, Sandmail, MySQL, syslog. If you know of > software that sets up BIND autmatically, what is it? > > There are many sites I know of where no one had any trouble. Or if they > did, they contributed a solution. > > If you don't want to use GnuDIP, great! Get off this mailing list. Do > you at least know how to do that? > > Endre Palfi wrote: > > > > Hi. I have given some tought to your project over the past months and I > > never liked that self-registration idea. It seems like you are trying to > > provide the technology and the retailing environment and are not doing > > either one particularly well. I think you would have a good and usefull > > product if it worked, but I remember from experience that installation was > > very cumbersome. Production environments (ISPs and ASPs) only use products > > that provide snappy flawless installation and equally snappy archiving and > > restoration. > > > > The correct way of doing what you do is to remove the self-registration > > features altogether and provide some simple provisioning scripts to > > manipulate the database. Once you have that, package it properly with > > installation scripts, provisioning script documentation and take it to ISPs > > and ASPs and have them integrate it into their service networks as they see > > fit. Usually ISPs and ASPs already have the end-user interfaces and they > > want to expand it by adding more products and services to it. Since 99% of > > the value in what you do is in the DynIP service everything else is just > > distraction. Kind of like having a kiosk on the street for selling light > > bulbs. You make light-bulbs. Package it the way other light bulb companies > > package their products and put them where the other light bulbs are so that > > people can buy it and you can receive the product. > > > > When you have that, promote is as hard as you can to generate sales and > > recover expenses so that you can move on to developing the next technology > > or refining what you have "profitably". > > > > You will have a lot more success with your product that way. > > > > Creighton MacDonnell wrote: > > > > > Last night it appears that my installation of GnuDIP was used to send a > > > large number of E-mails to a victim. > > > > > > While those GnuDIP web pages that can only be entered through the login > > > page cannot be anonymously abused. it is now clear that the self > > > registration page can be. A program can "GET" and "POST" that page > > > repeatedly to send an E-mail bombardment to a third
Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost
Hi, I think you are confusing GNUDip with a retail product. gnudip is a freely available package that Craig maintains out of the goodness of his heart, not as a package to sell to clueless newbies who need self installers. What Craig supplies to the Linux (and other) communities is a stream of bug fixes and enhancements that he recieves no payment for. Hopefully, the response from the community is positive and he continues to modify the code and work with others to make a better product. He is not, 1) in it to make millions of dollars, 2) in it to help you out personally with a problem you might have, 3) in it to listen to people whine about self installers, 4) in it to provide free support to install it. Viable tech is here now, we run a good sized ISP running in Canada against the Telco's and Cable companies, using nothing but Linux and we continue to upgrade the services available to the client. We've been in business since 1994 and it looks like we'll break the $2,000,000 gross profit line this year. This all with 4 people. If you don't know how to operate a Linux system or aren't willing to learn, never, ever, blame other people for your own shortcomings. To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 8:07 PM Subject: Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost I realize the message I sent went to the list instead of you. I intended to send it to you directly, but I made a mistake which I only realized once the email was gone. I was trying to encourage you in what are the things you need to do to make what you do profitable. And yes I was the *bozo* that sent you the emails a while back asking you for help. We used to be an ISP but because of lack of viable technologies we didn't generate enough profits to support our backbone connection so we had to put all of our stuff in storage. Over $5 of brand new stuff. I just contributed by the way. Explaining to you the needs of your prospective market (ISPs and ASPs) and how to shape it so that they would pay for it was my contribution. Also. Not only I contributed that, but I also contributed over $35000 of our profits to Caldera when they went public only to loose every damn penny in less than two years. Linux may be free, but the damn Caldera stocks weren't free when I bought them. Today it's worth a little over $200. So I think I earned the right to speak freely among linux guys. You'll probably think that I'm bullshitting, but I'm not and so I don't care if you call it bs because our tax return doesn't lie. Anyways, you want to kick me off this list. FINE. This list isn't a very active list anyways. In fact today is probably the most amount of posts this list has seen on any given day for months now... and IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF a damn bozo like who is trying to help you by making some suggestions on how to shape your product to make it easier to sell. Creighton MacDonnell wrote: > I trust you are aware that GnuDIP is is not a commercial product? It is > OpenSource and FREE. > > One company has asked me to install GnuDIP for use by their customers > and are PAYING ME to make changes for them. > > In fact, to make GnuDIP more useful to that client I have in fact added > a capability for "remote maintenance", so that they do not have to use > "Self Registration". That company has been generous and forward thinking > enough to allow me to include this in the OpenSource version of GnuDIP. > > Are you offering me money? > > Are you offering to help? > > Aren't you the guy who sent me several E-mails a day for several days > while you ere trying to install GnuDIP? Didn't you even ask me to LOG ON > TO YOUR SYSTEM to do it for you? > > Most of the work involved in setting up GnuDIP has nothing to do with > GnuDIP. It is about BIND, Sandmail, MySQL, syslog. If you know of > software that sets up BIND autmatically, what is it? > > There are many sites I know of where no one had any trouble. Or if they > did, they contributed a solution. > > If you don't want to use GnuDIP, great! Get off this mailing list. Do > you at least know how to do that? > > Endre Palfi wrote: > > > > Hi. I have given some tought to your project over the past months and I > > never liked that self-registration idea. It seems like you are trying to > > provide the technology and the retailing environment and are not doing > > either one particularly well. I think you would have a good and usefull > > product if it worked, but I remember from experience that installation was > > very cumbersome. Production environments (ISPs and ASPs) only use products > > that provide snappy flawless installation and equally snappy archiving and > > restoration. > > > > The correct way of doing what you do is to remove the self-registration > > features altogether and provide some simple provisioning scripts to > > manipulate the database. Once you have that, package it properly with > > installation scripts, provisioning script documentation and take it to ISPs > > and ASPs and have the
Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost
Thanks for your input and for your generosity for ripping off people with good kind hearts while earning a substantial profit yourself. If you started to talk on my behalf in this cunning manner I would shove my foot so far up your ass that you would be shining it when you wipe your face. I don't blame others for my shortcomings. I was explaining how to make linux products, most of them which are ridiculously difficult to install and configure, better so they would have more value in the marketplace. What you just said about my willingness to learn is incorrect, there is nothing wrong with my willingness to learn. In fact I am pretty knowledgeable and self-educated. People don't need to know how to fly the airplane which they use to visit their relatives, or to cook the meal they eat in restaurants, or to how to make the shoe they wear, and so on. At the time when we tried integrating this product we would have been happy to pay a few hundred bucks for it instead of agonizing on begging Craig for free support. If the linux guys knew how to make good products they wouldn't have to provide free support and they could easily ask for a reasonable sum of money for their wares. Lastly which relates to what you said and how you were spinning my opinion to land on Craig's side, so he would continue his mindless giving while you use his work for profits. I know that linux guys are kind and have good hearts. I am a hybrid. I work in both linux and windows environments, and I appreciate the effort that both teams put in to turn out products. I also know that there are greedy people who rip them off by using their wares for profit while using cunning remarkt so make them believe that they need to provide free support. To anyone who is reading this stuff and feels that I expressed their feelings, mark my words: "THE BIGGEST ENEMY OF GOOD PEOPLE IS THEIR OWN BENEVOLENCE." You don't need to provide free support to anyone. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever. Make a good product that is easy to use and before you hand anything over, ask to be paid for the value of your investment and the profit that you rightfully deserve. If you don't do it, then someone else will and it will be your loss and their gain. Rick Macdougall wrote: > Hi, > > > > I think you are confusing GNUDip with a retail product. > > gnudip is a freely available package that Craig maintains out of the > goodness of his heart, not as a package to sell to clueless newbies who need > self installers. > > What Craig supplies to the Linux (and other) communities is a stream of bug > fixes and enhancements that he recieves no payment for. Hopefully, the > response from the community is positive and he continues to modify the code > and work with others to make a better product. > > He is not, 1) in it to make millions of dollars, 2) in it to help you out > personally with a problem you might have, 3) in it to listen to people whine > about self installers, 4) in it to provide free support to install it. > > Viable tech is here now, we run a good sized ISP running in Canada against > the Telco's and Cable companies, using nothing but Linux and we continue to > upgrade the services available to the client. We've been in business since > 1994 and it looks like we'll break the $2,000,000 gross profit line this > year. This all with 4 people. > > If you don't know how to operate a Linux system or aren't willing to learn, > never, ever, blame other people for your own shortcomings. > > > Regards, > > Rick > PS. Sorry, but people like this really piss me off. > > - Original Message - > From: "Endre Palfi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 8:07 PM > Subject: Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost > > I realize the message I sent went to the list instead of you. I intended to > send > it to you directly, but I made a mistake which I only realized once the > email was > gone. I was trying to encourage you in what are the things you need to do to > make > what you do profitable. > > And yes I was the *bozo* that sent you the emails a while back asking you > for > help. We used to be an ISP but because of lack of viable technologies we > didn't > generate enough profits to support our backbone connection so we had to put > all > of our stuff in storage. Over $5 of brand new stuff. I just contributed > by > the way. Explaining to you the needs of your prospective market (ISPs and > ASPs) > and how to shape it so that they would pay for it was my contribution. > > Also. Not only I contributed that, but I also contributed over $35000 of our > profits to Caldera when they went public only to loose every damn penny in > less > than two years. Linux may be free, but the damn Caldera stocks weren't free > when > I bought them. Today it's worth a little over $200. So I think I earned the > right > to speak freely among linux guys. You'll probably think that I'm > bullshitting, > but I'm not and so I don't care if you
Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost / Dot COM Farce
The real point of open source is that it is driven by people who have technical understanding, and who make their money through THEIR OWN WORK, not from capital they invested in a business. The open source movement favours the technically competent, not idiot would-be business men. Most of the technical people I know were fully aware that "dot COM" was a scam. It was perpetrated by bankers not programers. Don't blame programers for your foolishness. Many of the people I know tried to warn their employers about their foolishness in pursuing the "do COM" fantasy, but were laughed at as not understanding business. The problem is that the frenzy became so absurd that even the technical people who knew better could not avoid being hurt. If you have suffered for being a fool, I am sorry for you. But pissing on us will not help you. And many people I know were hurt even though they were not fools. Endre Palfi wrote: > > Thanks for your input and for your generosity for ripping off people with good > kind hearts while earning a substantial profit yourself. If you started to talk > on my behalf in this cunning manner I would shove my foot so far up your ass > that you would be shining it when you wipe your face. > > I don't blame others for my shortcomings. I was explaining how to make linux > products, most of them which are ridiculously difficult to install and > configure, better so they would have more value in the marketplace. > > What you just said about my willingness to learn is incorrect, there is nothing > wrong with my willingness to learn. In fact I am pretty knowledgeable and > self-educated. People don't need to know how to fly the airplane which they use > to visit their relatives, or to cook the meal they eat in restaurants, or to how > to make the shoe they wear, and so on. > > At the time when we tried integrating this product we would have been happy to > pay a few hundred bucks for it instead of agonizing on begging Craig for free > support. If the linux guys knew how to make good products they wouldn't have to > provide free support and they could easily ask for a reasonable sum of money for > their wares. > > Lastly which relates to what you said and how you were spinning my opinion to > land on Craig's side, so he would continue his mindless giving while you use his > work for profits. I know that linux guys are kind and have good hearts. I am a > hybrid. I work in both linux and windows environments, and I appreciate the > effort that both teams put in to turn out products. I also know that there are > greedy people who rip them off by using their wares for profit while using > cunning remarkt so make them believe that they need to provide free support. > > To anyone who is reading this stuff and feels that I expressed their feelings, > mark my words: > "THE BIGGEST ENEMY OF GOOD PEOPLE IS THEIR OWN BENEVOLENCE." > > You don't need to provide free support to anyone. Not today, not tomorrow, not > ever. Make a good product that is easy to use and before you hand anything over, > ask to be paid for the value of your investment and the profit that you > rightfully deserve. If you don't do it, then someone else will and it will be > your loss and their gain. > > Rick Macdougall wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I think you are confusing GNUDip with a retail product. > > > > gnudip is a freely available package that Craig maintains out of the > > goodness of his heart, not as a package to sell to clueless newbies who need > > self installers. > > > > What Craig supplies to the Linux (and other) communities is a stream of bug > > fixes and enhancements that he recieves no payment for. Hopefully, the > > response from the community is positive and he continues to modify the code > > and work with others to make a better product. > > > > He is not, 1) in it to make millions of dollars, 2) in it to help you out > > personally with a problem you might have, 3) in it to listen to people whine > > about self installers, 4) in it to provide free support to install it. > > > > Viable tech is here now, we run a good sized ISP running in Canada against > > the Telco's and Cable companies, using nothing but Linux and we continue to > > upgrade the services available to the client. We've been in business since > > 1994 and it looks like we'll break the $2,000,000 gross profit line this > > year. This all with 4 people. > > > > If you don't know how to operate a Linux system or aren't willing to learn, > > never, ever, blame other people for your own shortcomings. > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Rick > > PS. Sorry, but people like this really piss me off. > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Endre Palfi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 8:07 PM > > Subject: Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost > > > > I realize the message I sent went to the list instead of you. I intended to > > send > > it to you directly, but I made a mistake which I
Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost
Guys guys guys... Both view points are entirely valid in and of themselves, but they both forget the core of both views. 1) Intellectual Property offered for free use in the Open Source arena is often abused and criticized because of it's lack of cohesiveness and salability. Most of the product developed in the Open Source arena is very often to fill a gap in the community that previously has never been filled. So you have dynamic dns package which allows Craig and anyone else who is willing to go through the pain and agony of installing BIND the ability to offer dynamic dns to themselves and others. 2) Intellectual Property that is for sale is often abused and criticized because of it's lack of quality and interoperatibilty. Most products developed in the commercial arena is often to carve out niche market to ensure sale and resale. If a product is out there that is what you think your niche is, you will probably package it up to include in your portfolio of fantastic products that you can sell to everyone from technologists to those who wish to just use the product, and not worry about anything else. There is an assumed duty of care that many commercial users of open source products assume. I do not believe this duty of care exists, and probably shouldn't given the main reasons why the open source product was developed in the first place. There are companies out there that offer support for open source products, and also companies that package these open source products in easily salable quantities. This shows that there is a lack of support and "ease of installation" for commercial users. This would indeed make the open source product much more salable, and Caucho, who make one of the best Servlet Engines on the market are "open source" though sell their product for use in a production environment. It really comes down to why the product was developed in the first place. Damien At 06:24 PM 27/05/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Thanks for your input and for your generosity for ripping off people with good >kind hearts while earning a substantial profit yourself. If you started to >talk >on my behalf in this cunning manner I would shove my foot so far up your ass >that you would be shining it when you wipe your face. > >I don't blame others for my shortcomings. I was explaining how to make linux >products, most of them which are ridiculously difficult to install and >configure, better so they would have more value in the marketplace. > >What you just said about my willingness to learn is incorrect, there is >nothing >wrong with my willingness to learn. In fact I am pretty knowledgeable and >self-educated. People don't need to know how to fly the airplane which >they use >to visit their relatives, or to cook the meal they eat in restaurants, or >to how >to make the shoe they wear, and so on. > >At the time when we tried integrating this product we would have been happy to >pay a few hundred bucks for it instead of agonizing on begging Craig for free >support. If the linux guys knew how to make good products they wouldn't >have to >provide free support and they could easily ask for a reasonable sum of >money for >their wares. > >Lastly which relates to what you said and how you were spinning my opinion to >land on Craig's side, so he would continue his mindless giving while you >use his >work for profits. I know that linux guys are kind and have good hearts. I am a >hybrid. I work in both linux and windows environments, and I appreciate the >effort that both teams put in to turn out products. I also know that there are >greedy people who rip them off by using their wares for profit while using >cunning remarkt so make them believe that they need to provide free support. > >To anyone who is reading this stuff and feels that I expressed their feelings, >mark my words: >"THE BIGGEST ENEMY OF GOOD PEOPLE IS THEIR OWN BENEVOLENCE." > >You don't need to provide free support to anyone. Not today, not tomorrow, not >ever. Make a good product that is easy to use and before you hand anything >over, >ask to be paid for the value of your investment and the profit that you >rightfully deserve. If you don't do it, then someone else will and it will be >your loss and their gain. > > > >Rick Macdougall wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I think you are confusing GNUDip with a retail product. > > > > gnudip is a freely available package that Craig maintains out of the > > goodness of his heart, not as a package to sell to clueless newbies who > need > > self installers. > > > > What Craig supplies to the Linux (and other) communities is a stream of bug > > fixes and enhancements that he recieves no payment for. Hopefully, the > > response from the community is positive and he continues to modify the code > > and work with others to make a better product. > > > > He is not, 1) in it to make millions of dollars, 2) in it to help you out > > personally with a problem you might have, 3) i
Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost
Hi, 1) I don't insult people to the degree you do, aside from calling the cluess newbies and even then only very very rarely. You are the second time since 1994. 2) I never, ever, threaten people, especially in a public forum. 3) Yes, I am making a profit from other peoples work (in this case, not Craig's work since we dont' actually use it for clients). 4) ALL of the work I do is released as a GPL product for others to prosper by. I do this because I believe in the OpenSource method. 5) If you have any reasonable knowledge of Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, BEOS, etc, none of these utilities are hard or difficult to install. On a well maintained system, a make, make install, edit a few config files and voila, it's up and running. If you are used to windows point-and-click, then yes, you might have some problems. If you learn from your attempts though, you will be a much better SysAdmin in the long run, no matter if it's for a Linux system or a Windows system. 6) Dissing myself and Craig in a public forum for calling you out for what you are just proves my point that you aren't ready for Linux yet. This isn't meant as a flame on your abilities, but if you are having so many problems installing a simple piece of software like gnudip2, perhaps you should sit back and reflect on what OS you really want to maintain. Linux is not for the faint of heart or those wishing an easy solution (well, not yet anyways, some of us are working on it). 7) Comparing Linux to an airline or restaurant is silly. Linux is not and probably never will be at the same level of easy intergration as Windows et al. It's the choice of the Linux community. Easy script installs, automated tasks etc lead to lazy admins which lead to the problems you see today on Windows machines, with virus's (viri ?) and trojan horses running wild because the Admin's just follow the default install's and don't complete the installation themselves. 8) Your comment "THE BIGGEST ENEMY OF GOOD PEOPLE IS THEIR OWN BENEVOLENCE." is completely false IMHO. If someone is making a profit using one of my programs and wants 5 minutes of my time to help them fix a problem it's free. If they want 2 days consulting to do something extra, hey, they get charged. If it's a school or community site, well if I have the time they get it for free. And guess what... All those changes get put back into the product and make it better. 9) Just a weird comment on GPL and Opensource... I'd never attempt to make a living doing just opensource programming. I own an ISP and run a second business designing some neat in-house hardware (e-mail me if you are interested, should be out in sept/oct in the $300 USD price range and it will be a fully functional Linux computer with dual NIC's and all the other goodies including sub 6 second boot time...) but I'd never move to straight GPL work. The money is not there. Since I do use GPL programs day to day (Bind, MySQL, PHP, Apache, Qmail (ok, no GPL but close), Sendmail, perl, etc) I feel a need to give something back to the community. Sure there are some folks that don't or won't, but word gets around and they receive little, if any, help from the developers. 10) I'm not sure what your problem is, or if you even bothered to read this far, but I think you should probably relax and have a night off. 11) It's been fun but this is the last post I'll make in response to any of your posts. But it has been fun.. :) Regards, Rick PS apologies to the list... Craig feel free to kick me if need be but I won't be responding again to him. His attitude just peeve's me. - Original Message - From: "Endre Palfi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost Thanks for your input and for your generosity for ripping off people with good kind hearts while earning a substantial profit yourself. If you started to talk on my behalf in this cunning manner I would shove my foot so far up your ass that you would be shining it when you wipe your face. I don't blame others for my shortcomings. I was explaining how to make linux products, most of them which are ridiculously difficult to install and configure, better so they would have more value in the marketplace. What you just said about my willingness to learn is incorrect, there is nothing wrong with my willingness to learn. In fact I am pretty knowledgeable and self-educated. People don't need to know how to fly the airplane which they use to visit their relatives, or to cook the meal they eat in restaurants, or to how to make the shoe they wear, and so on. At the time when we tried integrating this product we would have been happy to pay a few hundred bucks for it instead of agonizing on begging Craig for free support. If the linux guys knew how to make good products they wouldn't have to provide free support and they could easily ask for a reasonable sum of money for their wares. Lastly whi
Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost / Dot COM Farce
I'm not here to argue with anyone. If you don't believe me, go to Rick and ask him to put in the same amount of free time into your business as you put into his and find out for yourself who you're dealing with. Not only his behavior was cunning in representing you from a little criticism, but now he is also representing the list and is playing the innocent and hurt. You ever heard the expressions: Getting under someones skin or Wolf in sheep's clothes? This exchange is your blueprint for how people like him betray you and everyone else, continously for a fucking dollar. I try to help you by pointing out the way to make something to compete better against his like, but he is cutting me down and turning the list against me. So I'm not that nice. DAMN IT. AT LEAST I HAVE A POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION ON WHO THE ENEMY IS AND WHY. You want to feel sorry for him? GO AHEAD. Check your bank statements against his claims and see who deserves the pitty. Creighton MacDonnell wrote: > The real point of open source is that it is driven by people who have > technical understanding, and who make their money through THEIR OWN > WORK, not from capital they invested in a business. The open source > movement favours the technically competent, not idiot would-be business > men. > > Most of the technical people I know were fully aware that "dot COM" was > a scam. It was perpetrated by bankers not programers. Don't blame > programers for your foolishness. > > Many of the people I know tried to warn their employers about their > foolishness in pursuing the "do COM" fantasy, but were laughed at as not > understanding business. The problem is that the frenzy became so absurd > that even the technical people who knew better could not avoid being > hurt. > > If you have suffered for being a fool, I am sorry for you. But pissing > on us will not help you. > > And many people I know were hurt even though they were not fools. > > Endre Palfi wrote: > > > > Thanks for your input and for your generosity for ripping off people with good > > kind hearts while earning a substantial profit yourself. If you started to talk > > on my behalf in this cunning manner I would shove my foot so far up your ass > > that you would be shining it when you wipe your face. > > > > I don't blame others for my shortcomings. I was explaining how to make linux > > products, most of them which are ridiculously difficult to install and > > configure, better so they would have more value in the marketplace. > > > > What you just said about my willingness to learn is incorrect, there is nothing > > wrong with my willingness to learn. In fact I am pretty knowledgeable and > > self-educated. People don't need to know how to fly the airplane which they use > > to visit their relatives, or to cook the meal they eat in restaurants, or to how > > to make the shoe they wear, and so on. > > > > At the time when we tried integrating this product we would have been happy to > > pay a few hundred bucks for it instead of agonizing on begging Craig for free > > support. If the linux guys knew how to make good products they wouldn't have to > > provide free support and they could easily ask for a reasonable sum of money for > > their wares. > > > > Lastly which relates to what you said and how you were spinning my opinion to > > land on Craig's side, so he would continue his mindless giving while you use his > > work for profits. I know that linux guys are kind and have good hearts. I am a > > hybrid. I work in both linux and windows environments, and I appreciate the > > effort that both teams put in to turn out products. I also know that there are > > greedy people who rip them off by using their wares for profit while using > > cunning remarkt so make them believe that they need to provide free support. > > > > To anyone who is reading this stuff and feels that I expressed their feelings, > > mark my words: > > "THE BIGGEST ENEMY OF GOOD PEOPLE IS THEIR OWN BENEVOLENCE." > > > > You don't need to provide free support to anyone. Not today, not tomorrow, not > > ever. Make a good product that is easy to use and before you hand anything over, > > ask to be paid for the value of your investment and the profit that you > > rightfully deserve. If you don't do it, then someone else will and it will be > > your loss and their gain. > > > > Rick Macdougall wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you are confusing GNUDip with a retail product. > > > > > > gnudip is a freely available package that Craig maintains out of the > > > goodness of his heart, not as a package to sell to clueless newbies who need > > > self installers. > > > > > > What Craig supplies to the Linux (and other) communities is a stream of bug > > > fixes and enhancements that he recieves no payment for. Hopefully, the > > > response from the community is positive and he continues to modify the code > > > and work with others to make a better product. > > > > > > He is not, 1) in it to make mill
Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost / Dot COM Farce
Hi, Ok I lied, I'm sorry 1) Let's assume I work 60 hours a week as a SysAdmin and hobbiest ( probably closer to 110, but let us low ball the figure), 2) Let's assume I could make $65 per hour on a consulting job (I was making $73 cad in 93). 3) Let's assume I work with user problems, network problems etc for 40 hours a week ( probably closer to 5, but again, let's low ball it). 4) That leaves 20 hours a week for development. All my developement is Open Source under the GPL. 20 hours * 50 weeks (2 for holidays which I have not taken since 91,although I'll take them this year for my wedding) = 1000 hours * $65 = $65 5) $65000 is more than I choose to make and it is directly giving to the GNU/Open source community for no charge. I currently take under $58K salary from my company. On that I support my wife and 2 kids under 4 plus the house payments, food, car and guests. Not sure where you live, but $58K cad is close to the poverty line in the US. 6) I'll bet you were taking more than that from your company and not giving back. As you say, you want proof, it's in the tax reciepts. Put up or shut up. 7) I have patches in spamassassin, the Linux Kernel (granted, from the .96p1 version, I wrote the adaptec 1542 scsi interface), vpopmail, vqmailadmin, rfc and many others. Who have you contributed to? Regards, Rick PS. Sorry Craig, I know I promised. You can kick me now. -- Original Message - From: "Endre Palfi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [GnuDIP] Contribute or Get Lost / Dot COM Farce I'm not here to argue with anyone. If you don't believe me, go to Rick and ask him to put in the same amount of free time into your business as you put into his and find out for yourself who you're dealing with. Not only his behavior was cunning in representing you from a little criticism, but now he is also representing the list and is playing the innocent and hurt. You ever heard the expressions: Getting under someones skin or Wolf in sheep's clothes? This exchange is your blueprint for how people like him betray you and everyone else, continously for a fucking dollar. I try to help you by pointing out the way to make something to compete better against his like, but he is cutting me down and turning the list against me. So I'm not that nice. DAMN IT. AT LEAST I HAVE A POSITIVE IDENTIFICATION ON WHO THE ENEMY IS AND WHY. You want to feel sorry for him? GO AHEAD. Check your bank statements against his claims and see who deserves the pitty. Creighton MacDonnell wrote: > The real point of open source is that it is driven by people who have > technical understanding, and who make their money through THEIR OWN > WORK, not from capital they invested in a business. The open source > movement favours the technically competent, not idiot would-be business > men. > > Most of the technical people I know were fully aware that "dot COM" was > a scam. It was perpetrated by bankers not programers. Don't blame > programers for your foolishness. > > Many of the people I know tried to warn their employers about their > foolishness in pursuing the "do COM" fantasy, but were laughed at as not > understanding business. The problem is that the frenzy became so absurd > that even the technical people who knew better could not avoid being > hurt. > > If you have suffered for being a fool, I am sorry for you. But pissing > on us will not help you. > > And many people I know were hurt even though they were not fools. > > Endre Palfi wrote: > > > > Thanks for your input and for your generosity for ripping off people with good > > kind hearts while earning a substantial profit yourself. If you started to talk > > on my behalf in this cunning manner I would shove my foot so far up your ass > > that you would be shining it when you wipe your face. > > > > I don't blame others for my shortcomings. I was explaining how to make linux > > products, most of them which are ridiculously difficult to install and > > configure, better so they would have more value in the marketplace. > > > > What you just said about my willingness to learn is incorrect, there is nothing > > wrong with my willingness to learn. In fact I am pretty knowledgeable and > > self-educated. People don't need to know how to fly the airplane which they use > > to visit their relatives, or to cook the meal they eat in restaurants, or to how > > to make the shoe they wear, and so on. > > > > At the time when we tried integrating this product we would have been happy to > > pay a few hundred bucks for it instead of agonizing on begging Craig for free > > support. If the linux guys knew how to make good products they wouldn't have to > > provide free support and they could easily ask for a reasonable sum of money for > > their wares. > > > > Lastly which relates to what you said and how you were spinning my opinion to > > land on Craig's side, so he would continue his mindless giving while you
