[Goanet] article on medium of instruction
Hi all, posting my article on the medium of instruction in schools for comments and views. Adv. Peter D'souza - Calangute, Goa. SPEAK ENGLISH, MAN!!! Date: about twenty year ago. Place: Calangute ‘tinto’, as it was then called. Scenario – a lady standing with two small kids one aged about five, the other younger by a little over a year. The dress code said they were Catholics. Overheard: The elder kid said something to the little fellow who responded in konkani. Immediately, he was knocked on his head by the lady, saying: “Speak English, Man.” That was during the earlier ‘for English’ agitation. At the time there were the good Catholic folks from all walks of life screaming their lungs out against the then head of the Church in Goa, demanding support for grants to English medium primary school. They did not hesitate to use some of the choicest expletives, in Konkani, against their Bishop. But, the church stood firm. All the ordained who spoke tried to explain the benefits of teaching kids in their mother tongue. All, except for a few black sheep who dared not go public. Also, at the time, there were two priest brothers. One, a very good friend of mine. He was a staunch *‘pro-konkani wadi*’. I remember assuring him that Konkani would be a dead language within two generations. He practically laughed in my face and gave me statistics of church attendance for the Konkani masses, blah, blah blah. I remember telling him that his church would be at the fore-front to dig the Goan grave even before the chapel bells toll konkani’s death knell. Today, exactly one generation has gone by. The priest friend of mine is silent. His brother, on the other hand, who had not spoken a word at the time is now in the vanguard of the present ‘English-for-our-kids’ movement. And he does not hesitate to air his views on church premises. This time, interestingly, the head of the church is silent. I do hope the kid who got his head knocked has not developed a stutter, though I am certain he is making his *mommy* happy by trying to speak English. Yes, it’s only twenty years gone. My prediction is still one generation away. Now for the present. Scene: my colleagues house. Her maid hails from Maharashtra. Has settled in Goa, and now speaks fluent Konkani. Has not picked up any English. Says she will not be coming to work on the next day. Reason: the PTA of her little girl’s catholic school has taken a decision that all parents should attend a meeting at Panjim in support of English. Her child is in Std. I, Konkani medium. English is just one subject. She has failed in it. The mother was one of that ‘large gathering’ demanding grants for English medium at the primary level. The child is otherwise fluent in Konkani and Marathi. The demand for grants to English Medium Primary has taken quite an interesting twist. Everyone seems to agree that education through the child’s mother tongue is the best, but ... Parent’s want the language which will help their child some ten to twenty years down the line, and so why should they be deprived of grants to English medium primary schools? Appears to be very, very farsighted. But appearances, more often than not, are deceptive. And in this case, the road to hell is paved with extremely good intentions – the child’s future. All crowds at rallies for English are predominantly, I repeat *predominantly *, Catholic packed and backed. On the media front be it print or electronic, it is also Catholic. Interestingly, too, most are second or third generation children of ancestors who found greener pastures abroad till some idiot Amin or later Saddam forced them to leave lock, stock and barrel. And they are predominantly Catholic. The rest are followers, blind or deaf to any other voice except what their local *padre* has preached, though in Konkani. The other group is the non-Goan settler, basking in our sun and hospitality. Among these will be found a number of non-Catholics. One wonders if they had made the same demands in their home States! I fit into that section whose ancestors had migrated to British India some three generations ago. English has been my first language since birth. Unfortunately, it has been the only language I have a command of. Shakespeare, Chaucer, Milton, Dryden, were my favourites. Even our own Mahabharata and Ramayana were read by me via their English translations. It was Radhakrishna’s English version of the Bhagvad Gita which was my favourite for many, many years. I should have been in the vanguard of the present *Charge of the English Brigade*. Yet . What I find baffling is why is there such an anti-Konkani attitude being developed in the mind-set of our otherwise down to earth Goans. Today, English is the easiest language to learn even without attending a school. Besides, any school can set up such additional classes, and I am certain parents would not mind their kids spending an extra hour at school learning to speak English
Re: [Goanet] David vs Goliath
Santosh and Gilbert, I was wondering whether my own bias was the only thing that told me that Dinesh D'Souza had won the debate, so I hopped over to Richard Dawkins' website and read through about 150 of the most recent comments (as of a couple of nights ago). Many, many of the writers (lovely, pacifist atheists) seemed to want to respond physically to Dinesh's arguments. What really was revealing was that there were only a tiny handful of them who praised Hitchens (or Hitch, as they lovingly call him). There seemed to be a general sense of despond in the fact that their man let them down. A couple of them said that Dinesh was the most formidable opponent that they have had (the frequent references to us and our side gives me the impression that they are as well organised as any other religion). The current call is for Sam Harris (ostensibly an unflappable fellow) should take on Dinesh in another public debate. I enjoyed their wit and the general tone of the debate. What was the dark brown stuff that Hitchens was drinking during the first half of the debate? Some of his supporters said he was drunk. Gilbert, I couldn't gauge by the applause, but there were reports that the audience was mostly Christian. Hitchens did get a lot of applause for the first half, especially when he suggested that theists are immoral for teaching their kids lies about God. Dinesh didn't answer the Good Samaritan question well at all. If Hitchens lost on one issue, it was in response to the man from Tonga, who talked about his country and Fiji once having cannibals--until Christian missionaries arrived. What would you have to offer us? was the question he asked. Hitchens was incoherent in response and didn't really recover after that. Peter Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:53:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dinesh enthralled the otherwise liberal crowd of college students who naturally tended to be inclined to the 'ills of religion' and the atheistic views of Christopher. Everybody can watch this debate at the following link and decide its worth for themselves: http://www.tkc.edu/debate/ To me it seems pretty lame. Full of inane platitudes. Lots of factual errors concerning science, history and philosophy of science, and history of Christianity vis-a-vis other religions and civilizations. Dinesh is once again thankful for the Goan inquisition. As before, he seems to believe he would have been an uncivilized Indian Hindu otherwise. Hitchens mumbles as usual, and exudes his customary hatred towards Islam and to a lesser extent, Christianity, and of course, to Mother Theresa. In summary, this debate amounts to cliches, sound bites, careless inaccuracies and hackneyed arguments that have long been refuted by others, more knowledgeable about these issues, and intellectually better equipped. BTW, the quote above that the audience of King's College is inclined to be against religion is belied by the following statement of the college's mission: Through its commitment to the truths of Christianity and a Biblical worldview, The King?s College seeks to prepare students for careers in which they will help to shape and eventually to lead strategic public and private institutions: to improve government, commerce, law, the media, civil society, education, the arts and the church. (Please see http://www.tkc.edu/abouttkc/mission.html) Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] Of Interest to the Goa-ILUG
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * GARCA BRANCA VACATION ACCOMMODATION LOUTULIM, SOUTH GOA. For RR; modern/clean amenities; serene, healthy and wholesome location Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. The BOSS development team has announced the release of BOSS GNU/Linux 2.0, a Debian-based distribution with support for Hindi and Tamil: BOSS version 2.0 successfully released. Finally our Indian GNU/Linux distribution is released on 17th September 2007 in the Connect 2007 program. Features: GNOME 2.18; Orca screen reader; Espeak; gDesktlets; Beryl 2.0 - an excellent 3D desktop; 2.6.21 kernel; on-screen keyboard support; OpenOffice.org 2.2 with support for two Indian languages (Hindi and Tamil), with plans to move to other languages as well; a pleasing desktop background and icons; enhanced BOSS presentation tool; complete Tamil and Hindi desktops; update manager for updating your BOSS to the latest packages. Found this at:http://distrowatch.com/4480 Peter -- www.goanbrides.com
[Goanet] Consensual Sex and the Enlightenment
http://www.GOANET.org TRI Continental Film Festival - Dona Paula, Goa, Sep 28 - Oct 2, 2007 http://www.moviesgoa.org/tricontinental/tricon.htm Online Media Partner: http://www.goanet.org Roland Francis addressing Wendell Rodricks said: While I am on the subject, please tell me why every homosexual has a pressing necessity of informing the world of his sexual inclinations. By all means go to communal baths. By all means use the public washrooms for purposes other than than for which they were built. We will turn the other way. Just as we would turn if we see a heterosexual couple making out. What you and they do is their business. Roland, Cecil, Selma and others in the discussion on consensual sex, This whole conversation is most interesting! There's obviously a sizable contingent on this mailing list who are ready for a big group hug (with Wendell in the middle), proud of the fact that they are in step with the times, post-Christian thinkers, et cetera. So go ahead and give yourselves a pat on the back as you revel in your enlightened state. And while you are all about the business of verbally kicking Averthan, do give yourself three cheers for your tolerance. (Some of us listening in on the sidelines continue to enjoy the delicious irony.) Roland, like you, I know many people who ask the same question that you ask in the paragraph quoted above. You might like this essay from the _Times_ of London. An excerpt and links follow. Take care, Peter D'Souza Quote from Matthew Parris' article: Do cats witter endlessly on about being cats? Do redheads drive us to distraction with their thoughts on being ginger? How many serious comment columns in the editorial pages of newspapers are devoted to the musings of straight men on what it is to be a heterosexual? No, they just get on with it – with being cats, redheads or straights. Such things are for the lifestyle sections of weekend magazines, not rubbing shoulders with the debate on global warming, housing or the terrorist threat. Fellow-queers: stop moaning. How interesting is any of this to the rest of the world any more? Other groups out there have it worse than we do in Britain. We've got the political changes we asked for. Social change will take longer but it's happening, steadily. Kidding ourselves that we inhabit some sort of a gulag is making it harder, not easier, for the next generation to relax about their sexuality. Let's remind them that in the whole history of mankind there has been no better, luckier, time or place to be gay than Britain in 2007. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article2141330.ece -- www.goanbrides.com
[Goanet] Alpha Female Theory
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * GARCA BRANCA VACATION ACCOMMODATION LOUTULIM, SOUTH GOA. For RR; modern/clean amenities; serene, healthy and wholesome location Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Roland, I am not certain if your potshot at Selma was necessary. My guess is that Hazel never signed up for this mailing list. Maria and Lucia might have been subscribers at one time. Ulysses pokes his head in every once in a while. Last I heard he was working on putting some Konkani music on an Internet radio station. All of them (except Hazel, perhaps) were on the IRC channel #goanet which was a precursor to this mailing list. Peter -- --- Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, I cannot say about Ulysses Menezes, but for sure Maria, Lucia and Hazel have been driven away by the overpowering presence of our alpha female Selma. My theory, at least. Roland.
[Goanet] Recalling the “liberation” of Goa
http://www.GOANET.org International Cuisine Conference on Traditional Asian Diet Panaji, Goa, September 2-5, 2007 - http://www.indologygoa.in Online Media Partner: http://www.goanet.org I found a link to this article from the September 2nd edition of _The Hindu_ on www.goencar.com. Peter Date:02/09/2007 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/mag/2007/09/02/stories/2007090250070300.htm Magazine PAST PRESENT Recalling the liberation of Goa RAMACHANDRA GUHA Looking back, some of the reactions to the invasion of Goa, both Indian and Western, are amusing and bewildering. In my last column I wrote of Goa's more-or-less happy integration with India, based on a recent visit to that territory. In this column I wish to recall the moment when Goa passed from Portuguese to Indian rule, based on some historical documen ts of the time. Lingering remnants India became independent in August 1947. By the end of 1948, some five hundred princely States had been persuaded — or, in a few cases, coerced — to join the nation. The French left Pondicherry in 1954. In the same year, activists overran the tiny Portuguese enclaves of Dadra and Nagar-Haveli. But Goa, and its appendage Daman, remained outside Indian control, as an irritating reminder of the long —and still unfinished — history of European colonialism in the sub-continent. Finally, in December 1961, the Indian Army went into Goa and forced the garrison there to surrender. In the papers of Penderel Moon, a former ICS man who had also worked with the Government of free India, I found two letters commenting on the action. A British army officer living in retirement in Roorkee wrote to Moon that not a single Indian has any qualms about Goa except the Eastern Economist. Public opinion approved from the word go and has had no difficulty in justifying it since! Voices of dissent This was not true. Also in the Moon papers, I found a letter written by a serving Cabinet Minister, Rajkumari Amrit Kaur, which said: I have personally been very sad about Goa. It was really the enormous and continuous pressure from his own and all the other political parties of India, in particular that of the Jan Sangh and the Communists, that finally drove our Prime Minister to accede to their demands. I feel the triumph has not been worth the price we have had to pay for it. For some time, at any rate, India's voice will not count as much as it has done in the past in the world councils for peace. One does not know whether the Rajkumari expressed her reservations in Cabinet meetings. But another old Gandhian, Chakravarti Rajagopalachari, wrote in his journal Swarajya that after the action in Goa, India could no longer claim t o be on a mission for promoting peace. Rajaji's thoughts were echoed by this newspaper, which feared that by her action India might have endangered the high esteem in which she has been held all over the world. Western commentators were less equivocal in their criticisms. In his book The Liberation of Goa, P.D. Gaitonde quotes the American historian Arthur Schelsinger as saying that the contrast between Nehru's incessant sanctimony on the subject of non-aggression and his brisk exercise of Machtpolitik was too comic not to cause comment. It was a little like catching the preacher in the hen-house; and it suggested that Harrow and Cambridge, in instilling the British virtues, had not neglected hypocrisy. Some Western critics focused on the mismatch between India's profession of non-violence and its invasion of Goa; others on what they saw as the fundamental incompatibility of the cultures of Goa and India. One British writer argued that the Goans are as much Mediterranean Europeans as the present descendants of various European nationalists [in the United States] are Americans. And the Catholic Herald newspaper claimed that wherever he goes even in India, a Goan remains a Goan, and tends to form a self contained Goan community. He certainly does not see himself as an Indian. Five hundred years of religious, social, and racial and cultural interpretations have sharply differentiated him from other peoples of the Indian subcontinent. Off the mark Forty-five years later, one reads these judgements with a mixture of amusement and bewilderment. That some Goans are Catholics and that many Goans speak Konkani does not mean that they do not or cannot consider themselves Indian. And which Goan now sees himself as a Mediterrenean European? Also, the charge that Indians were being hypocritical and sanctimonious falls away in the light of the behaviour, in later decades, of the world's superpowers. Who, in the face of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 or the American invasion of Iraq in
[Goanet] Congrats!
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- Follow the online presence of the Museum of Christian Art, Old Goa Contacts: Tel: +91 832 2285299 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://christianartmuseum.goa-india.org/ --- Hi Herman, Congratulations on 13 great years of Goanet! And special thanks to Frederick, Viviana and Bosco who have helped moderate this forum (and have put up with cranky old fellows like me). What ever happened to some of the original bunch of Goencars from your IRC group--Maria and Lucia D'Souza, Ulysses Menezes, Hazel Fernandes, et al? Regards Peter -- www.goencar.com
Re: [Goanet] In appreciation of Peter's post
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Hi Santosh, Many thanks for your note. Your apology, too, is accepted. Sincerely, Peter From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Peter, I appreciate the following post from you. It is frank, direct and devoid of any unnecessary put downs. I accept your apology, and I apologize in return for all the negative things that I have most certainly said about you. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] More info on the Cancer Myth/Response to Mervyn
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Mervyn writes: PS. I would be a bonus if you could get the other folks here who use toxic language to change too. Mervyn, You, a bonus? That would be a dealbreaker. Peter ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Pope Benny XVI Should Resign - Absolutely not.
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Frederick Noronha writes: When there are so many diverse Mulims around the globe, why does the media focus just on the intolerant fringe within that culture and religion? It's like the media showing Goans as drunks and vamps ... even though there are so many of us sober guys and teetotallers around! Fred, So Osama bin Ladin represents the intolerant fringe? What on earth does INTOLERANT mean in your dictionary? The intolerant fringe has carried out large scale murder of innocent people in Israel, America, Kenya, Tanzania, Indonesia, United Kingdom, India, Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other parts of the globe. Are the media supposed to shut up about all of this? The truth is that the media don't give these events half the coverage they deserve. What you see, and how you perceive the world, also depends on which spectacles you choose to see it through. Yes, if you lived in a nation that was at the receiving end of every second threat (the latest is directed against worshippers of the cross, I believe), then perhaps you will see it quite differently. I would suggest the dominant media in the West is suffering from an acute perspective problem as far as Islam and its people currently go. You are absolutely correct. I wish they were less afraid to tell the whole truth. The New York Times, for instance, makes the current US administration out to be one of the worst things that happened to mankind. It treated its readers to 30, count 'em, thirty consecutive days of front page photos from Abu Ghraib prison. Many westerners wait for things to go wrong in Iraq just so that they can say they were right. They're silent when evil men are killed or captured. This is testimony to the influence of the media in regards to Islamic terror. Don't you worry, the media is doing a better job than you imagine. Perhaps they should keep a running scorecard for who the Islamic world reviles versus those it tolerates. He who hurts Islam the most incurs the wrath of the mullahs. Currently it's Salman Rushdie 1 vs. bin Ladin 0. And, everyone tends to get infected by this, even if you generally depend on alternative sources for your perspectives. Fred, this is utter nonsense. In this day and age most of us get our news from a variety of sources. Francis Bacon once said that man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true. Sincerely, Peter ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Pope Benny XVI Should Resign and Elevate Amcho CardinalIvan Dias to Papacy !
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. From: cornel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: I really am tired of fundamentalist groups whether Sikh, Muslim, Christian or whatever, taking bigotry to extremes and especially trying to stifle free speech--the most treasured thing we have at our disposal. Hi Cornel, What is at least as sickening is non-fundamentalists, non-religious organizations like the government of China taking anti-religious bigotry to extremes and physically persecuting religious believers for merely practising their faith. It is sad that the bulk of the Chinese church, for example, comprises underground churches. Russia is reverting to its old communist ways too. Peter ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] More info on the Cancer Myth
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Santosh writes: Peter, Have you ever considered the possibility that you might be wrong? Santosh, The record will show that I have, on several occasions admitted that I was wrong. In fact, it's been as clear as You're right and I'm wrong, a statement once directed to you. That should answer your question. From my standpoint, if you have revealed anything in this forum, it is that you have developed an antipathy towards me. I have said this before (in different words), and I will say it again: I resent the way you instinctively put down people who have had disagreements in debates with you. Just ask Joe Vaz, Chris Vaz, and Mario Goveia. Those who heap praise upon you are usually exempt from your self-righteous judgements, whether they be vicious gossips or make malicious remarks about those who disagree with you. (The latest comes from a fellow who suggests that I hate folks with Hindu names. No proof required? Had I suggested that about somebody else, you might have spoken up and talked about me being abusive, but now you remain silent.) So when you talk about antipathy, think about all the insults that you silently condone. I also know from earlier experience, that you are fighting your own imaginary battles between liberals and conservatives divided along some arbitrary lines, and thrusting me in the midst of them. [If you choose to respond to this paragraph, please start a new thread.] Like many folks here, I enjoy good debate. In any argument there must be at least two sides. To narrow down the essence of any argument one must define a premise, often a set of premises. This inadvertently places the two parties on different sides of an imaginary line. It so happens that social and cultural issues are almost always defined in stark terms. And by most common definitions you fit clearly on the one side of any argument. It is called the liberal side. There is nothing arbitrary about it. I'm surprised that you've observed the dynamics of the last two elections in America and still declare that it's arbitrary. I submit to you that the type of groupism that you are advancing in this forum is toxic by its very nature. This is nonsense; however, if I receive e-mails either on this list or off-list telling me that I am advancing toxic groupism, I will cease making comments. You ought to know that I discuss issues--instead of people--much more than some of your admirers do. You also know that I have spent much time researching issues in debates with you. (Quite an effort for a fellow who is not academicaly inclined, if I may say so myself!) I hope some day you find within yourself the charity to post something without insulting another human being. Ironically, in the digest version of GN that I receive, the post listed just before this post of yours was one from me responding to Ruth de Souza's excellent post concerning gambling. You won't find me insulting another human being in that post. It is uncharitable and unfair to suggest that I do so in every post. I have discussed Goa's Linux user group, pangolins and sea turtles in Goa, and much more, all without insults. Lastly, I wish to apologise for calling you SanTosh (and similarly derived names). I stopped doing that a few days ago. Sincerely, Peter D'Souza ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] Thursday: Interesting Seminar on Disposal of Kitchen Waste
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. I hope this is the last time that the moderators let someone get away with such a vicious string of abusive language on this forum. ;-) Peter P.S. Clinton, could you change your charset to ISO-8859-1? A Linux aficionado like yourself shouldn't be tormenting us with windows-1250. -- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 07:12:17 +0530 From: Clinton Vaz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250 RGVhciBHcmVlbkdvYW5zLCBHb2FuZXR0ZXJzLAoKIAoKVG9tb3Jyb3csIFRodXJzZGF5LCB0aGUg SW5kaWFuIFdhdGVyIFdvcmtzIEFzc29jaWF0aW9uIHdpbGwgYmUgY29uZHVjdGluZyBhCmxlY3R1 cmUgYW5kIHByZXNlbnRhdGlvbiBvbiBLaXRjaGVuIHdhc3RlIHdhdGVyIGFzIHdlbGwgYXMgc29s aWQgd2FzdGUuCgogCgpUaGUgc3BlYWtlcnMgd2lsbCBieSBFUiBSYWplbmRyYWt1bWFyIFNhcmFm LCBEaXIuIFNHIEVudmlybyBTZXJ2aWNlcywgUHVuZQphbmQgCgpEciBBbmFuZCBLYXJ2ZSBBcHBy b3ByaWF0ZSBSdXJhbCBUZWNobm9sb2d5IEluc3RpdHV0ZSwgUHVuZQoKIAoKRHIgQW5hbmQgS2Fy dmUgcmVjZW50bHkgd29uIGFuIGludGVybmF0aW9uYWwgYXdhcmQsIHRoZSBBc2hkZW4gQXdhcmQg KHdoaWNoCnNvbWUgb2YgdXMgY2FsbCB0aGUgR3JlZW4gT3NjYXJzISkgZm9yIGhpcyB3b3JrIG9u IGNvbnZlcnRpbmcgd2FzdGUgdG8KYmlvZ2FzLgoKIAoKVGhvc2UgaW50ZXJlc3RlZCBpbiBwYXJ0 aWNpcGF0aW9uOgoKIAoKUGFydGljaXBhdGlvbiBmZWU6IEZyZWUKCkRhdGU6IDIxc3QgU2VwdGVt YmVyIDIwMDYKClRpbWluZzogMTQ6MzAgdG8gMTc6MTUKCkxvY2F0aW9uOiBQV0QgQ29uZmVyZW5j ZSBIYWxsLCBBbHRpbmhvLCBQYW5qaW0KClJTVlAgJiBBdHRlbmRhbmNlIGNvbmZpcm1pbmc6IFNo cmkuIFJHIERlbyAyNDYyOTEzLzk4MjIxMjg1Nzggb3IgSk4gQW1iaWthcgo5ODIyMTI2NTM3LzI3 NDAyMDQKCiAKCkRvIGF0dGVuZCBpdCBpZiBub3QgZm9yIHRoZSBsZWN0dXJlLCB0byBtZWV0IERy LiBLYXJ2ZSEgSZJsbCBiZSB0aGVyZSB0b28uCgogCgpDbGludG9uLi4KCis5MTkwOTM2ODI4Cgpr bGludHZhekBnbWFpbC5jb20KCgotLSAKTm8gdmlydXMgZm91bmQgaW4gdGhpcyBvdXRnb2luZyBt ZXNzYWdlLgpDaGVja2VkIGJ5IEFWRyBGcmVlIEVkaXRpb24uClZlcnNpb246IDcuMS40MDUgLyBW aXJ1cyBEYXRhYmFzZTogMjY4LjEyLjUvNDUxIC0gUmVsZWFzZSBEYXRlOiA5LzE5LzIwMDYKIAot LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLSBuZXh0IHBhcnQgLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0KQW4gSFRNTCBhdHRhY2htZW50 IHdhcyBzY3J1YmJlZC4uLgpVUkw6IGh0dHA6Ly9saXN0cy5nb2FuZXQub3JnL3BpcGVybWFpbC9n b2FuZXQtZ29hbmV0Lm9yZy9hdHRhY2htZW50cy8yMDA2MDkyMC85NTlmNDY1Mi9hdHRhY2htZW50 Lmh0bWwK ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] More info on the Cancer Myth
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Santosh, The only thing that some of us have demonstrated concerning you is that we don't take everything you say (or quote) at face value. I'm sorry, I can't offer you any help in your newfound effort to stop embarrassing yourself, but here's something that may help: You know how you're surrounded by a small group who never ever disagree with you, some who often rush to your defense? Well, every time that you feel that knee-jerk urge to vehemently disagree with and embarrass one of the conservatives on this forum, ask yourself what you'd do if it were one of your coterie instead. Peter -- Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2006 00:18:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Peter, I think you have already demonstrated many times that you, Gilbert and others who share your views are much smarter than me at everything. I would therefore humbly ask you to stop embarrassing me any further on Goanet. Can you be so kind as to honor this humble request of mine? Cheers, Santosh ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Gambling: Causing more harm than good/Ruth de Souza
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Hi Ruth, Thanks for posting your comments on the subject of gambling. It made for very interesting reading. Your statement below was particularly interesting: Increasingly high rates of gambling have been noted among Chinese communities, particularly new migrants and restaurant workers. It is thought that this is precipitated by loneliness, isolation, cultural and language barriers. Would you happen to have any more research concerning the demographic group you describe above in relation to gambling? I've often heard of boredom leading to drug addiction, petty crime, and depression; but gambling comes as a surprise addition to the list. The common conception of Chinese restaurant workers / new Chinese migrants is that they work so hard that they have little time for anything else. On a related note, there was an article in the _Wall Street Journal_ about a fortnight ago which talked about some of the bigger casinos in China as being operated by wealthy Americans. They catered to domestic and foreign businessmen, and not to the average Chinese person. So, I was wondering, does the barrage of materialism that crashes upon unsuspecting immigrants contribute to this (new?) love of gambling? So I conclude this diatribe with some questions: Can Goa afford to have ten new offshore casinos? Does it need to be a gambler's paradise? Will these casinos create wealth for Goans and Indians or will they cause more harm? Can industry operators provide a safe product? If not is it better to not have casinos at all? Will more casinos lead the way to the installation of electronic gaming machines? Good questions all. Here is a partial answer from _New Scientist_: The American gambling meccas of Atlantic City, Las Vegas and Reno all suffer significantly higher suicide rates than comparable cities that outlaw gaming. A new study suggests that cities pay a price in public mental health when they cash in on gambling profits. Source: http://tinyurl.com/r3bpl Peter D'Souza ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Will any Goan....re casteism in the Church
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Hi Mario, I think we were talking about two different issues. I was supporting Selma's claim about the ORIGIN of the practice of celibacy while you are discussing the CURRENT RATIONALE for celibacy, in such a case, I agree with you that property inheritance concerns are long removed from today's requirements for the Roman Catholic clergy. Peter From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] Almost all the examples you have cited are either so ancient or restricted to the progeny of a very few Popes from the bad old days of the Church that led to the Reformation that I don't see how one can use any of it to support the celibacy of all Catholic priests for the several centuries since. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Will any Goan....re casteism in the Church - confraria is still supreme ??
Hi Mario, I must disagree with you on this one. There is a great deal of information available that seems to support Selma's views. The paper you cite ignores the history of the Roman Catholic church in regards to celibacy (or lack thereof), especially when it comes to the papacy. Peter -- Here are some interesting facts: (Source: http://www.futurechurch.org/fpm/history.htm ) Popes who were married: St. Peter, Apostle St. Felix III 483-492 (2 children) St. Hormidas 514-523 (1 son) St. Silverus (Antonia) 536-537 Hadrian II 867-872 (1 daughter) Clement IV 1265-1268 (2 daughters) Felix V 1439-1449 (1 son) Popes who were the sons of other popes, other clergy: Name of PopePapacy Son of St. Damascus I 366-348 St. Lorenzo, priest St. Innocent I 401-417 Anastasius I Boniface418-422 son of a priest St. Felix 483-492 son of a priest Anastasius II 496-498 son of a priest St. Agapitus I 535-536 Gordiaous, priest St. Silverus536-537 St. Homidas, pope Deusdedit 882-884 son of a priest Boniface VI 896-896 Hadrian, bishop John XI 931-935 Pope Sergius III John XV 989-996 Leo, priest Popes who had illegitimate children after 1139 Innocent VIII 1484-1492 several children Alexander VI1492-1503 several children Julius 1503-1513 3 daughters Paul III1534-1549 3 sons, 1 daughter Pius IV 1559-1565 3 sons Gregory XIII1572-1585 1 son Mario writes: --- Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This incidentally was one of the chief reasons for incorporating celibacy into the Catholic Church law. That often, Church property was passed down from generation to generation when priests could actually marry and the Church was having none of that. Mario observes: When Selma makes such wise-sounding, closed-end comments, as if she knows exactly what she is talking about from sitting at the right hand of Pope Benny XVI, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Sufficeth to say tears begin to stream down my cheeks:-)) ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] Flame-bait Subject Line Altered
Mervyn Lobo inquires: The questions is: Peter, are you still a missionary? Are you still a missionary? The answers is: No. No. Peter ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Take your supporters, and your religious wars, elsewhere
Kevin Saldanha wrote: Secular Goa is NOT a discussion group. It is tightly moderated with a narrow focus. GoenchimXapotam, however, is another Yahoogroup that has an open discussion policy without restrictions. Those interested in pursuing arguments which may be considered 'off-topic' or too hot for GoaNet can join it by sending a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Kevin, At the time I left GoenchimXapotam earlier this year it seemed like almost all the liberals on the group had a fixation with Mario, i.e. there wasnt' a day that went by without several posters taking pot shots at Mario Goveia. (Similar to Goanet in that respect.) Has it changed much? Peter ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Are Goencars Leaving Britain Too?
Hi Cornel, Thanks for your feedback concerning Goan migration patterns in tthe UK. the Goan Association. Now it is time for me to write about how my lament should be reconsidered with the inflow of thousands of relatively young vitalising Goans to the UK in recent years. That some 5000 or so (including kids) could turn up at a recent Goan Association event was quite incredible in London. This is very encouraging news, I'm sure. I can't quite comprehend an all-Goan event of this size. Perhaps I should visit the one in Toronto next year. My only memories of anything remotely similar were the socials organized by the Karnataka Goan Association in Bangalore, which seldom exceeded about 500 persons in attendance. Re Brits leaving these shores, I have heard this perennially in the 44 years I have been here. I have always wished it were really true so that there would be more space for those of us on these fairly over-crowded islands. Historically, of course, one estimate is that some 200 million around the world are of UK origin and in the unlikely probability that they returned, the UK would sink under the weight! But seriously, in the current situation, a significant number who go out do return even from such sunny places like Australia and Spain. I haven't heard similar accounts of people leaving the USA. On a similar note, is heartening is to see is the brain drain reverse course with some of the brightest engineers and businessmen heading back to India. Each time there has been a change of Government, (Conservative to Labour and vice versa) a whole lot have expressed determination to leave! But they hardly ever do on this count. Some of us are still hoping that half of Hollywood would keep their promises and head to Europe! I think there are probably at least three 'forces' propelling some movement outwards. a) the continuation of the historic outflow previously generated by Empire. Many have relatives all over the world and they sometimes think of joining them. b) House prices have shot up so much over the years that the equity (some Goan homes are worth ?1 million plus already) will buy property elsewhere very comfortably and still leave a lot of change. So, it may be the function of home ownership prosperity that is promoting outward movement. Second and even third homes (say in Goa) are not unusual considerations to some. c) there has always been a lack of strong national British identity in the UK. Being British is seemingly less strong than being French, German etc. This in turn may also be be attractive to many thousands who are dying to get here and pushing the population to 60 million for the first time. I suspect that the cold, damp British climate also has something to do with it. :-) Peter ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] Re; Some observations on fake quotes
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet] Re; Some observations on fake quotes Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Peter D'Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SanTosh, Here Peter is intentionally distorting my name. The truth is that I really want to call you St. Tosh, since you are the unofficial guardian of civility on Goanet. It must take some scientific mind to find my comments below revealing of an ideology. Here Peter is intentionally mocking the fact that I am a scientist. Quite right, because you read much more into my comments than I actually stated. Any outside observer would simply attempt to verify the facts, if they were remotely interested in determining whether you're reliable at providing accurate quotes. What Peter is referring to here is an instance of inadvertent insertion of the innocuous word Please in another Goan forum, which has been verified as such by outside observers. Please note that he makes this accusation repeatedly on Goanet, apparently, to distort my intent. Wrong. I do this not to distort your intent, but merely to question your ability to quote accurately. I have condensed quotes for brevity, but have never been accused of distorting the intent of the original poster. I have demonstrated above how Peter has distorted my intent. It is very easy to show numerous such instances of distortion on Peter's part in this forum. The above statement is false (TM). Lastly, I don't consider myself more moral than you. I thank him for this admission. I will keep this in mind. But based on his determination of my standing in his last post, this means that, like me, Peter will never be a Catholic in good standing. You can be assured of that. Peter ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Fake quotes
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. SanTosh, It must take some scientific mind to find my comments below revealing of an ideology. Any outside observer would simply attempt to verify the facts, if they were remotely interested in determining whether you're reliable at providing accurate quotes. Good standing is determined by others, so I can't tell you how or where I stand in my reputation as a Christian. I have condensed quotes for brevity, but have never been accused of distorting the intent of the original poster. Lastly, I don't consider myself more moral than you. There you have it, straight from the horse's mouth. Peter --- Peter D'Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SanTosh, given your truncation, modification and distortion of quotes you will never be a Catholic in good standing. The above accusation is quite revealing about the problem of ideological prejudice and self-righteousness that I have referred to earlier. The obvious questions that I have to ask this poster are: How about you? Are you a Catholic or Christian in good standing? Have you ever truncated, modified and distorted quotes? Do you consider yourself more moral than me? Cheers, Santosh ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Fake quotes
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. I' m not too sure why this thread has continued on for as long as it has. SanTosh had a simple question and deserves a simple answer. SanTosh, given your truncation, modification and distortion of quotes you will never be a Catholic in good standing. Peter From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Santosh Helekar Sent: 28 August 2006 08:43 To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! Subject: Can someone who lies about others and makes up fake quotes to malign them be a Catholic in good standing? Cheers, Santosh ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] Science and Truth / Ref: Kevin's Comments
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Kevin writes: This is exactly the reason Science is upheld as the ONLY legitimate way to the TRUTH! It is self correcting, Hey Kevin, Science is truth, but scientific opinion often isn't. Science is limited to a few dimensions of truth, so don't get too caught up with it as the be-all and end-all of everything that's true. Peter ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Was Hitler Pro-Catholic? / response to Peter
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Peter D'Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sometimes I wonder whether our professional researchers really think they can pull the wool over our eyes with their total distortions of commonse positions and ad hominem attacks against our sources. SanTosh responded: [...]The standard definition of an ad hominem attack conforms to its Latin meaning, which is against the person, not against a source of information, as suggested above. Peter clarifies: Yes, and the source of information is a fundamentalist or a group of fundamentalists. Unless, of course, answers.org is a google-like bot that generates articles via computer programs. SanTosh continues: A good example of an ad hominem attack is the following quote from the above post, wherein my full name is invoked, and my statement of a simple indisputable fact that www.answers.org is a fundamentalist religious website is being characterized as my throwing mud on that source: Peter says: Nice attempt at deflection. Why mention that it is fundamentalist at all if you're only concerned with facts? SanTosh hits back with this quote from Hitler: We do not forget the influence of the churches. There will definitely be no Vatican crusade against us. We know Monsignor Pacelli since he was the Vatican's diplomatic representative in Germany for twelve years; as Secretary of State and adviser to Pope XI it is greatly in his interest that the German Catholics should at last have a statute. Peter asks: Does this quote prove the influence of Catholic teaching and doctrine on Hitler or, instead, Hitler's influence with the Vatican hierarchy? SanTosh, quoting Hitler again: We do not judge merely by artistic or military standards or even by purely scientific ones. We judge by the spiritual energy which a people is capable of putting forth, which will enable it in ten years to recapture what is has lost in a thousand years of warfare. I intend to set up a thousand-year Reich and anyone who supports me in this battle is a fellow-fighter for a unique spiritual-- I would say divine-- creation Rudolf Hess, my assistant of many years standing, would tell you: If we have such a leader, God is with us. Peter responds: I'm still trying to figure out how someone so self-obsessed and concerned about leaving his imprint on history can be construed as a devout Catholic, based on the above quote. SanTosh alleges: Unbiased folk who have read the book would have also noted that other quotes revealed that Hitler claimed to have the highest respect for Jesus Christ and his teachings. Peter remarks: Unbiased folk examine Catholic teaching on the one hand, and Hitler's actions (and words) on the other, and conclude that his alleged devotion to the church of Rome was pure. Correct? You almost make me think that I have a bias in favour of Catholicism! SanTosh again: As far as the bogus claim that I have not yet contributed any facts to THIS debate, let me just provide the following link to my contribution 4 years ago in this forum. Peter says: It depends on how you define this. SanTosh veers off course by tainting fundamentalists: I have already provided evidence to support my assertion that www.answers.org is a fundamentalist religious site. The fact that Fundamentalism is a well-recognized sect of Christianity is explained very nicely by another Christian religious website, namely the Catholic Answers site. Please see: http://www.catholic.com/library/Fundamentalism.asp Peter responds: I have a perfectly fine understanding of what fundamentalism is. I don't know why you bring it up when the conversation is about Hitler. SanTosh makes his closing remarks: As far as the authenticity and factual accuracy of the selective hearsay quotes (and the conclusions that can be drawn from them) are concerned, I would ask people to read the book from which they are taken, actual historical records such as Hitler?s speeches, and other historical books, which provide different facts and perspectives, before putting to rest their notions about Hilter?s religious views. SanTosh, you have clearly missed the entire point. The views of public figures change with the wind. Politicians will say whatever is expedient, as you yourself have so amply proved with the first quote you provided above. The simple truth of the matter is that Hitler's publicly espoused views don't match his actions. Your desire to score points
[Goanet] Goanet's 12th Anniversary - August 25, 2006
Herman, Congratulations to you and the Goanet team for making Goanet such a wild networking success story. From twenty people to 7000+ (?) in a few years is an achievement you can be proud of. Your unassuming personality and ability to engage people in polite, non-controversial cyberconversations gave this group the kickstart it needed. Even when there are conversations that make you feel like pulling your hair out, remember that there are many of us drawn to Goanet precisely because of the the feisty nature of the group. Thanks again for all you've done. Regards, Peter D'Souza -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/attachments/20060827/6a261014/attachment.htm ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Goanet's 12th Anniversary - August 25, 2006
Herman, Congratulations to you and the Goanet team for making Goanet such a wild networking success story. From twenty people to 7000+ (?) in a few years is an achievement you can be proud of. Your unassuming personality and ability to engage people in polite, non-controversial cyberconversations gave this group the kickstart it needed. Even when there are conversations that make you feel like pulling your hair out, remember that there are many of us drawn to Goanet precisely because of the the feisty nature of the group. Thanks again for all you've done. Regards, Peter D'Souza ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] Hitler, Catholicism and ...A Disappointing Surprise at the End
Hi Cornel, Sorry for the long delay in responding to your post concerning Hitler and the Catholic Church. I appreciate the effort you have made in organizing your data and the time spent in writing it for those of us who have been following this thread. Allow me to respond to your points with comments interspersed between them. A little bit of business first: I am not a Catholic and am not naturally biased in favour of Rome. 1. Since the beginning, Nazism and Catholicism had a peculiar co-existence. Hitler was a baptized Catholic and so were several of his henchmen including Joseph Gobbels. Neither ever formally left the Church and are on record for dutifully paying church taxes until their deaths in 1945. Catholicism has had a peculiar co-existence with several movements and individuals. It has been far from an apolitical organization; however, I hesitate to equate its relationships with an endorsement, much less an official imprimatur of any kind. 2. The Nazis under Hitler's leadership were faced with a country where the overwhelming majority considered themselves to be Christian. There were Protestants in the north and Catholics in the south. Consequently, Hitler had to build his power-base on this reality. We're getting into very loosely defined territory, Cornel. You should know that the word Christian in, say, America or England, means something quite different than it means in India or Lebanon. In India, calling oneself a Christian is often a way of saying that one is not a Hindu or Muslim. Differences of language and culture have developed over hundreds of years based largely on religious identities to the point that the culture has superseded the practice of religion as a social identifier. For example, in the part of the USA where I live ask someone what he thinks about Catholics and the response you are likely to get is beer, babes, and picnics. This is broadly called cultural Catholicism and is very distinct from Roman Catholic religion and practice. For purposes of this discussion I must separate the two. So far in this argument you have not presented evidence that the groups you describe above are indeed religious Catholics. 3. Hitler as a person was critical of the Catholic Church at many times but Hitler as the politician was fully aware that to achieve political success he would particularly need to win votes from the Catholic (mainly centrist) parties with whom he had much resonance. This he did assiduously by working co-operatively with the Catholics. He was, throughout his career, pragmatic about religion. He is on record as saying that, If my mother were alive, she would definitely be a churchgoer and I wouldn't want to hinder her. On the contrary, you've got to respect the simple faith of the people. You have rightly called him a pragmatic man, and there's a sharp distinction between a pragmatic person and one whose actions are based on deeply held personal beliefs (borrowing Edward Kennedy's euphemism for conservative, vote 'no'). You are illustrating my point that he was not really a practising Catholic but one of convenience. 4. Hitler was NOT brought up as an atheist nor as an agnostic but as a well-brought up Catholic. Never being an atheist, as some wish he were, so as to distance him from Catholicism out of sheer embarrassment, Hitler grew up in a religion and culture that was anti-semitic and inclined to persecute Jews because of the belief that they had killed Christ. Hitler thus repeatedly proclaimed that, he was doing the Lord's work. Cornel, I need to clarify something--I have neither described Hitler as an atheist nor a devout Catholic. Concerning his proclamation about doing the Lord's work, you seem quite eager to use this as another evidence that he was indeed a devout Catholic, yet it's so typical of politicians to tell people exactly what they want to hear. A few weeks ago in the UN general assembly the Israeli ambassador leaned over to the Lebanese ambassador and said something to the effect of Let's admit it, we're doing what you really would like to do...we're doing you a favour (or words to that effect). Do you believe the Israeli ambassador? Were Israeli bombings in Southern Lebanon carried out on behalf of Lebanon? Yet, you chalk up Hitler's Lord's-work quote as one more piece of proof that he was a devout Catholic merely because he said so. At a Christmas celebration in 1926, Hitler said Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews. The work that Christ started but could not finish, I, Adolf Hitler will conclude. You really seem to take Hitler at his word. This is a spectacular contradiction of Jesus' own words. Jesus came as a Saviour/Messiah to His own people, Hitler tried to exterminate them. Jesus came as a Jew, to Jews. He also instructed His disciples to speak to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the Jews, in Matthew 10:5-6. Do you, in all intellectual honesty, believe
[Goanet] Exposure of misconceptions with examples
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Jose Colaco writes: Santosh Helejar wrote: A misconception that has just been propagated in this forum is that god-fearing people cannot be evil. This misconception can be easily refuted by giving several present-day examples of god-fearing people who are evil, or have committed evil acts. My dear Santoshbab, [deletia] A God-fearing person cannot be evil; If he is, he cannot be God-fearing. BTW: I am sure you will agree with me that Those who proclaim to be God fearing, may not really be what they proclaim to be. Jose, Allow SanTosh to put aside scientific cynicism aside for a moment. How else will he be able to make his case that God-fearing people can be evil? If someone commits acts of evil and claims to be God-fearing at once, it is the prerogative of every agnostic and atheist (scientist or otherwise) to accept such claims at face value. Please don't take the fun out of this argument! Very sincerely, Peter D'Souza ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] apostarnahistoria.blogspot.com
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Fred wrote: An interesting blog about matters Portuguese (with connections to Goa too). See http://apostarnahistoria.blogspot.com/ Fred, I just looked at this site. It's worth noting that they're also, like some Goanetters, a raving bunch of anti-semites waiting for Israel to be pushed into the sea. «A arrogância dos israelitas não precisa do Presidente do Irão para ganhar inimigos e para ser ameaçada a existência de Israel! As resoluções das Nações Unidas não são somente para os árabes cumprirem!» http://apostarnahistoria.blogspot.com/2006/08/os-libaneses-deviam-ser-acolhidos-por.html Peter P.S. Thanks to the guys at goencar.com who posted here recently. I've used their free e-mail service for a couple of weeks now, it is great! ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] India may decline $100 laptop program
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. If I may borrow polite language from St. Tosh Helekar, what has the Sudeep Banerjee character been smoking? Fred and other Linux aficionados, would you know if Banerjee has visited Redmond, Washington lately? Peter D'Souza ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] Dr helekars challenge....
Santosh Helekar writes: As I am sure you know very well, hatred has been and is being incited against individual members of this forum by other members. Do you want to ban their hate-filled writings? I don't. Santosh, When one wants to censor someone and still hold to the high principle of opposing censorship, all one needs to do is threaten a lawsuit against perpetrators of hate-filled writings and those who engage in name calling. It's an old little trick commonly practiced in North America. Peter ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] GOAEVENTS: Free Software meet, July 22, 2006 3-5 pm at Miramar
Fred and others who attended this meeting, You might be interested in Ubuntu's free CD offer: https://shipit.ubuntu.com/ Concerning virtualization, don't waste your time on Red Hat right now. They offer no support for Xen virtualization. You will have to wait for RHEL version 5, due out at the end of this year. You are presently better off with Fedora Core 5 or SuSE Linux 10. If there are folks who are uncomfortable with Linux but do want to get their fingers wet with it, they might want to try the most excellent virtualization software from vmware.com. It's free, and they will be able to run one or more virtualized versions of Linux on a Windows machine, without interfering with Windows. Peter D'Souza -- Frederick FN Noronha wrote: As usual, our ILUG-Goa meeting is being held on July 22, 2006 (Saturday) between 3-5 pm at the Goa Science Centre. It is open to all, and attendance is free (apart from a Rs 10 entry fee payable at the Goa Science Centre gate). This month's focus will be on: * Ubuntu hoary hog distro * Red Hat/Fedora * Arvind Yadav on virtualisation: Virtualization is a hot topic today. Various software for the same are available for Linux (Free and non-free). This talk will focus on some of them that I know of and have used. If anyone is interested in programming in Goa, please check this young mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-floss-developer Special offer of CDs and DVDs of GNU/Linux software at http://linuxdvdsale.tripod.com Till end-July 2006, any single dvd distro for Rs 130 only and any CD distro for Rs 35 only. (For example FC5 which is six CDs is Rs 30 x 6 = Rs 180.) Contact 2420792 / 9881385492 ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
