Re: [Goanet] Reflection on anti-Christian violence in India.
Eddiebab, Are you sure you are not falsely accusing me of changing facts? Please read my post again. Perhaps, there is something that prevents you from recognizing the irony in it. But in case you don't, let me spell out that I was fully aware that the story was from last year. What was curious to me was that it was posted now, after the swami and so many other people have been murdered and displaced, and churches and properties have been destroyed. It was also apparent to me that the Cardinal might have been mistaken because the swami's subsequent murder indicates that he might also have been attacked in the past, as was reported in other news stories at that time. Cheers, Santosh --- On Sat, 3/7/09, Edward Verdes eddiever...@hotmail.com wrote: Santosh Bab...please read Nelsons post againThe Cardinal was refering to the attacks on Christians in Dec 2007 where else the Swami was murderered in Aug 23 2008. Heres below what the post said...see how well you have taken only one line and changed the factsgreat work!
[Goanet] Acting Our Age in the 21st Century
(An article that appeared in Herald on March 5, 2009) It is sad to see people still becoming suckers for flapdoodle like astrology and quack medicine, says SANTOSH A HELEKAR It has been rather disappointing to watch the growth of irrationality and anti-intellectualism in India and the world in recent years, seemingly in defiance of all the remarkable scientific and technological progress that has occurred. Two examples of flapdoodle show the most disturbing trends in this regard. The first is the resurgence of the belief in astrology. There is not a single prominent newspaper or magazine in any country in the world today that does not carry an astrological or sun signs column in its pages. People continue to buy this scam. What is even more depressing is that many of life's critical decisions are being made based on it. A glaring instance of the fact that this malaise has risen to the alarming heights of being granted an official stamp of approval in India was the University Grants Commission's decision in 2001 to include Vedic Astrology as a valid academic discipline in the nation's universities. The prospect of having a whole new generation of eager people indoctrinated in this delusional practice in their daily lives, that too in the hallowed halls of our academic institutions, still looms as large as ever. How could this happen despite the fact that astrology in all its forms has been debunked by bucket loads of scientific studies? One recent large-scale study involved what are known as time-twins. These are unrelated individuals who were born at the same time. If the time of birth determines the life or destiny of any human being then two such beings born at the same time must share many features or events in their lives in common. This prediction has been directly tested by the said study. And, lo and behold, it has found that there are absolutely no similarities between time-twins on over 100 different parameters, including occupation, longevity, marital status, love of music, health status, level of anxiety, tendency for aggression, etc. To those who rest their convictions on the poignancy of anecdotes, I would like to provide the following prophecies unfurled by one of world's renowned `Vedic astrologers' on 31 August 2001 for the upcoming month of September 2001: Monthly Global Predictions for September 2001 (Date posted: August 31, 2001) Compared to August the month of September is likely to be relatively a lot less stressful for most of the world, especially from natural and man-made accidents, terrorism, and violence standpoints. Also, after the first week of September, expect some relief to the volatile region of Israel and Palestine. As we all know by now, these predictions were not exactly on target. You might think therefore that this `eminent' astrologer might have suffered a major public embarrassment from this. Heck no! You could not be more wrong. This guy managed to insure himself from such a setback by also predicting the exact opposite of the above predictions. He concluded his 31st August statement by making the following `counter-predictions': Except for the first 10 days of the month, pretty much the entire month is going to be filled with events that have to deal with both man-made and natural calamities, especially for the United States, and to some extent both the continents of America. If you go through his other monthly predictions, you will find that there is no way he can ever be wrong because every single month he predicts everything that can possibly happen in this world, in the most general terms possible. This is one of the many techniques successful astrologers use to fool the public. Those who tend to stick their neck out by being a little bolder and more selective in their predictions provide disclaimers in small print at the end of their columns, like the one below taken from another highly prominent Vedic astrological column. Disclaimer: The author and publishers of this column do not claim that any of these astrological predictions will come true. Readers are advised to use their own discretion in their personal and financial matters. The author and publishers of this column are not liable for any consequences of readers believing in this work. The second example of the newfangled devotion to kookiness is the uncritical acceptance of all manner of quack remedies under the cover of alternative medicine. Over the last two decades, untested and unregulated treatments with no grounding whatsoever, except in the fantasies of fakirs, have proliferated like wild herbs and mushrooms, catapulting them into a multi-billion dollar international industry. Many have been shown to be outright frauds. From the standpoint of public health and safety it is therefore important to recognize indicators which, if present in advertisements, news reports and promotional materials, should arouse strong suspicions of
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
Fr. Ivo wrote: Religion has a scientific basis in universe and human being. This is what Dr.Santosh will not be able to understand... I explain below exactly how Fr. Ivo raises the scientific illiteracy of Goanetters who are unfortunate enough to read his posts in this thread. Religion has a scientific basis in universe and human being. ..Fr. Ivo The absurdity in this statement becomes apparent when one asks the question Which religion? Christianity believes in a creator and a personal deity. Buddhism and atheism do not. Which belief has a scientific basis? A person with some science education would say neither, because such supernatural beliefs cannot be verified or falsified by observation or experiment. This book is not religious or philosophical. It is scientific. It is based on neuroscientific experiments. I can challenge Dr.Santosh on this point. .Fr. Ivo I would say that the best preparation for the challenge would be to read a high school textbook on science. The Beauregard book is not scientific because it makes wild unscientific speculative claims. The claims are unscientific because they cannot be verified or falsified by observation or experiment. Two examples of such bogus unscientific claims are the following: But that hard problem ceases to be a problem once we understand the universe itself as a product of consciousness. We might expect living beings to evolve towards consciousness if consciousness underlies the universe. Consciousness is an irreducible quality. .Mario Beauregard and Denyse O’Leary I do not doubt in principle that a contemplative might contact a reality outside herself during a mystical experience. .Mario Beauregard But what is even more outrageous is that the Beauregard book endorses Intelligent Design creationism and spooky parapsychological phenomena such as telepathy. In fact, the authors make the incredible claim that there is strong evidence for these psi phenomena. The amount of unscientific gullibility displayed by these authors is mind-boggling. What Dr.Santosh accepts is scientific, what he rejects is unscientific ..Fr. Ivo Fr. Ivo would not have made the above statement if he were not so well versed in the misunderstanding of the difference between scientific and unscientific. The elementary high school textbook of science would tell us that for a claim to be regarded as scientific it must be testable, i.e. it must be verifiable or falsifiable by observation or experiment. None of Beauregard’s claims are testable. They are just rehashed preconceived personal religious beliefs and airy speculations with absolutely no scientific value whatsoever. The point that Dr.Mario makes is that the mystical experiences are created by a reality outside the brain. .Fr. Ivo This is a great example of an unscientific claim because it cannot be verified or falsified by a scientific observation or experiment. The supernatural reality outside the brain cannot be objectively detected or measured by independent means. The belief that it does or does not exist is therefore a religious or philosophical belief. Beauregard claims in the book that he has no doubt that this supernatural reality exists. I say to him, more power to you for believing in the dogma of your religion, but please stop fooling your readers (many of whom, like Fr. Ivo, have no clue as to what the science in neuroscience stands for) that this is your scientific conclusion. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
Let me state once again why Fr. Ivo's posts in this thread are compounding the ignorance of Goanetters regarding neuroscience, and making them more scientifically illiterate. Fr. Ivo does not understand that science has nothing to do with the supernatural concepts of Christianity or any other religion. He keeps trying to mix his religion with science, and misinforms readers in the process. This is also true of his latest attempt at describing what is written in some book that he has read. He seems to believe that what is written in that book are scientific facts. This is a false belief. The book Spiritual Brain written by a neuroscientist called Mario Beauregard and a journalist called Denyse O'Leary is not a scientific book. It is a book about the religious and philosophical beliefs of the neuroscientist Mario Beauregard. Anybody can write such a book, and get it published, because it does not have to go through a rigorous scientific peer review process. The fact that Beauregard happens to be a neuroscientist is incidental. His religious beliefs have no more credibility than those of anybody else. As I have said before, Beauregard has published two short peer-reviewed scientific papers wherein he has merely recorded the activity of the brain during mystical experiences in Carmelite nuns. That is all. These recordings do not justify a belief or non-belief in supernatural entities such as God or soul. They do not compel anybody, let alone a neuroscientist, to believe anything about materialism or spiritualism. Despite this, in their book Beauregard and O'Leary make wild unscientific speculations about the former's supernatural religious and philosophical beliefs. None of these speculations can ever be experimentally verified or falsified. That is why they are unscientific. They do not contribute anything to the genuine neuroscientific literature. Fr. Ivo has unfortunately been fooled by these unwarranted speculations, and is trying to mislead Goanetters into believing that they are scientific conclusions of a neuroscientist. He also keeps bringing up the word mediated without understanding its meaning in my field of neuroscience. He puts all kinds of words in my mouth in doing so. The word mediated has a very specific meaning in biology. In the present context it means that if you block the specific brain activity, you will prevent or abort the spiritual experiences that are mediated by it. Of course, not being a neuroscientist Fr. Ivo is not expected to know this. Cheers, Santosh --- On Wed, 3/4/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: Dr.Mario has published a book on The Spiritual Mind. He describes there his experiments and his scientific conclusions. . But he forgets that mediated does not mean created by the brain, as Dr.Mario has clearly discussed in his book, which was written in the light of brain-imaging studies of his doctoral students.
Re: [Goanet] Global warming: A cause for concern
--- On Mon, 3/2/09, Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net wrote: What he describes as a Republican Senator's blog does, in fact contain links to numerous sources of peer-reviewed studies written by reputable and respected scientists who disagree with Santosh's point of view. The above statement is false. The Republican senator's blog does not provide links to any peer-reviewed scientific studies at all. Almost all of the links are to other political blogs (such as Climatepolice.com, many of which deny that global warming is taking place in the first place), and to news items in popular media websites, with sensational titles such as Al Gore is a greenhouse gas bag. The one apparently peer-reviewed paper (not study) it refers to is a biographical account of a solar physicist (who died in 2006), and a description of his unproven solar inertial motion hypothesis. Please see http://www.griffith.edu.au/conference/ics2007/pdf/ICS176.pdf I have already shown you how the claim that the sun is responsible for global warming has been refuted. The only other scientific document which the Republican senator's political blog refers to is the following non-peer reviewed publication of Stephen Schwartz: http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/pubs/HeatCapacity.pdf I have already told you how the said political blog is misleading people on the work of Stephen Schwartz described in the above link. Here again is the link to Dr. Schwartz's page on the cause of global warming: http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/schwartz.html Regarding the non-peer reviewed document provided by the Heartland Institute (http://heartland.temp.siteexecutive.com/pdf/22835.pdf), the scientific credentials and affiliations of its contributors have not been stated. A search through the scientific literature shows that none of these contributors have published any peer-reviewed criticisms on global warming in mainstream scientific journals. The same is true of S. Fred Singer and Frederick Seitz. Neither of these individuals have provided any peer-reviewed scientific argument backed by objective evidence for their denials of any of the main conclusions regarding global warming in any mainstream scientific journal. Political statements and sound bites like the ones provided in the post appended below do not tell us what evidence and scientific rationale these people have for denying peer-reviewed data and/or conclusions of climate scientists currently active in the global warming field, and whether their arguments pass scientific muster. What's more, all of the speculative arguments that they have made on internet blogs and websites, and in popular media and books have been roundly refuted by climate scientists. The situation in this case is nearly exactly the same as it is with the denials related to the theory of evolution by natural selection, and the denial of the fact that AIDS is caused by the HIV virus. Cheers, Santosh --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net wrote: The Heartland report was compiled and edited by a scientist and professor of Environmental Science: S. Fred Singer President, Science and Environmental Policy Project Distinguished Research Professor, George Mason University Professor Emeritus of Environmental Science, University of Virginia Fred Singer writes, We regret that many advocates in the debate have chosen to give up debating the science and now focus almost exclusively on questioning the motives of ‘skeptics,’ name-calling, and ad hominem attacks. We view this as a sign of desperation on their part, and a sign that the debate has shifted toward climate realism. Mario asks, Sound familiar? The foreword of the report was written by a Past President of the National Academy of Sciences and the American Physical Society: Frederick Seitz President Emeritus, Rockefeller University Past President, National Academy of Sciences Past President, American Physical Society Chairman, Science and Environmental Policy Frederick Seitz says, Our concern about the environment, going back some 40 years, has taught us important lessons. It is one thing to impose drastic measures and harsh economic penalties when an environmental problem is clear-cut and severe. It is foolish to do so when the problem is largely hypothetical and not substantiated by observations. As NIPCC shows by offering an independent, non-governmental ‘second opinion’ on the ‘global warming’ issue, we do not currently have any convincing evidence or observations of significant climate change from other than natural causes. I would venture to say that such eminent scientists who are environmental experts know at least as much as Santosh, who is a scientist in an unrelated field, on the issue of whether there is universal consensus on the causes of climate change and whether the science is settled:-))
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
--- On Tue, 3/3/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: I corrected Dr.Santosh Helekar, who quoted Dr.Mario, saying: the mystical experiences are mediated by several brain regions and systems, and misinterpreted the word mediated as a denial of God's reality. The above assertion is bogus. I did not provide any such interpretation or misinterpretation of the word mediated. Fr. Ivo is clearly fantasizing that he corrected me. He is giving you false information regarding me and recent my post on this topic on Goanet. Here is the link to that post of mine: http://www.mail-archive.com/goanet@lists.goanet.org/msg41867.html Mario Beauregard has published only two short papers on mystical experiences in professional scientific literature. In those papers, he has invoked neither God nor soul in his interpretations. Science has nothing to do with these supernatural concepts. What Fr. Ivo says on the subject of Neuroscience is pure nonsense. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Global warming: A cause for concern
The problem with the post below again is that it does not cite any original scientific source. The only sources it cites are political and ideological in nature. They are: http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.BlogsContentRecord_id=84E9E44A-802A-23AD-493A-B35D0842FED8; and http://heartland.temp.siteexecutive.com/pdf/22835.pdf; The first is a Republican senator's blog, and the second a document provided by a socio-economic policy institute whose mission is clarified in the following statement: Heartland's mission is to discover, develop, and promote free-market solutions to social and economic problems. Now whom would you trust on the subject of climate science? The work of the majority of world's climate scientists and the science academies of their countries or a U.S. senator and some sociologists and economists of a public policy institute? The fact that the material from the latter political and ideological sources cannot be trusted is clear from the following post which quotes excerpts that misrepresent the work of Stephen Schwartz, and rely on casual sound bites of an astronomer and a solar physicist from sensational websites and news items rather than the published work of climate scientists in mainstream scientific journals. Please see below the Brookhaven National Laboratory website of Stephen Schwartz to find out that he accepts the evidence indicating human involvement in greenhouse gas emissions and global warming: http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/schwartz.html On another front the speculative claim of a solar physicist that the sun's activity is responsible for global warming has now been refuted by a number of studies. Please`see for instance the following peer-reviewed scientific paper from Stanford University: http://www.pnas.org/content/104/10/3713.full Here is the relevant excerpt: Despite the direct response of the model to solar forcing, even large solar irradiance change combined with realistic volcanic forcing over past centuries could not explain the late 20th century warming without inclusion of greenhouse gas forcing. Although solar and volcanic effects appear to dominate most of the slow climate variations within the past thousand years, the impacts of greenhouse gases have dominated since the second half of the last century. Cheers, Santosh --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net wrote: . According to, http://heartland.temp.siteexecutive.com/pdf/22835.pdf, the vast majority of the scientists who contribute to the IPCC studies have no direct influence on the conclusions expressed by the IPCC. .. http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.BlogsContentRecord_id=84E9E44A-802A-23AD-493A-B35D0842FED8 ... “Anthropogenic (man-made) global warming bites the dust,” declared astronomer Dr. Ian Wilson after reviewing the new study which has been accepted for publication in the Journal of Geophysical Research. Another scientist said the peer-reviewed study overturned “in one fell swoop” the climate fears promoted by the UN and former Vice President Al Gore. The study entitled “Heat Capacity, Time Constant, and Sensitivity of Earth’s Climate System,” was authored by Brookhaven National Lab scientist Stephen Schwartz. See, http://www.ecd.bnl.gov/steve/pubs/HeatCapacity.pdf .. These assertions are debatable according to Solar physicist Dr. Pal Brekke, senior advisor to the Norwegian Space Centre in Oslo. Brekke has published more than 40 peer-reviewed scientific articles on the sun and solar interaction with the Earth.
Re: [Goanet] Communal tension in Rourkela
--- On Sun, 3/1/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: For those who live in Ivory Towers and are cut off from ground reality 'gaddha and goddha' or 'IIT and ITI' are one and the same. The guy seems to be fond of making up the reality of others, and self-righteously believes only his reality is genuine. What else is new? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Global warming: A cause for concern
Mario Goveia wrote: I did not even address the science of global warming as Santosh falsely alleges. The misconceptions regarding the science of global warming in Mario’s earlier posts are listed at the end of this post. What is important for people to know in that context is the following: 1. Genuine scientific debates and consensus are discussed in professional scientific journals and conferences, not on websites of politicians or in internet petitions. If any scientist disagrees with a scientific issue he publishes his disagreement in a scientific journal. That is the only proper forum for his scientific peers to judge whether his criticisms are valid or not. What is publicized through a politician's website is not science but politics. 2. The claim made by IPCC that its report is based on the work of 2500 scientists, published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, is correct. 3. If you search genuine peer-reviewed scientific literature on this topic you will find that, as in the case of evolution and intelligent design/creationism, there is no real debate on the validity and scope of the main scientific claims about climate science. The main claims are: a) Global warming is taking place. b) It is substantially due to an excess of green houses gases released as a result of human activities. c) It is already causing detrimental effects on the environment. d) An urgent reduction of green house gas emissions is necessary to prevent catastrophic effects in the future. Cheers, Santosh LIST OF MISCONCEPTIONS One of the problems seems to be the overheated claims by some proponents that there is universal consensus and the matter is settled science, when clearly neither claim is accurate. The IPCC's claims that thousands of scientists participated in its report has also been challenged as false by scientists who were part of the process. Remember, the controversy is not whether global warming is taking place, but whether it is being caused by natural phenomena or human activity, and whether reversing or curbing the human activity, specifically CO2 levels, is a) necessary, b) economically harmful to poor countries, and c) going to make any significant difference, even if it can be done at some reasonable cost. I have limited these examples in the interests of brevity, and only to make the point that the issue is still being furiously debated within the scientific community: The only point to be made here is that there are a significant number of scientists who are not yet convinced that the matter is settled and that the broad consensus being claimed by some, does not yet exist. However, what I find strange is Santosh's ability to deny that there is a debate going on, and totally ignore the evidence that there are hundreds, if not thousands of reputable and respected scientists that disagree with the scientific opinions of the organizations cited by him.
Re: [Goanet] Global warming: A cause for concern
The misconceptions like the ones in the post below regarding the science of global warming have been addressed by many reputed and responsible scientific organizations, all of whom are in full agreement about the scientific issues involved. In addition to the report of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences that I provided earlier, the science academies of Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, the Caribbean, China, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Malaysia, New Zealand, Sweden and the UK have jointly issued a statement concurring with the findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Here is a link to a website of the British Royal Society dealing with several misleading arguments: http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?id=6229 Here are some of the misleading arguments that are addressed: Misleading argument 1 : The Earth's climate is always changing and this is nothing to do with humans. Misleading argument 2 : Carbon dioxide only makes up a small part of the atmosphere and so cannot be responsible for global warming. Misleading argument 3 : Rises in the levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere are the result of increased temperatures, not the other way round. Misleading argument 8 : The scale of the negative effects of climate change is often overstated and there is no need for urgent action. Cheers, Santosh --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Mario responds: Thanks for this link from one respected scientific organization which certainly lays out the case for the proposition that global warming is being caused by human activity. Where the doubts arise is when so many reputable and respected scientists disagree with the findings of this report and that of the UN's IPCC. One of the problems seems to be the overheated claims by some proponents that there is universal consensus and the matter is settled science, when clearly neither claim is accurate. The IPCC's claims that thousands of scientists participated in its report has also been challenged as false by scientists who were part of the process. Such claims raise doubts apart from the science which is complex enough. For example, From 1940 to 1980, when human industrial activity, and presumably CO2 levels, were experiencing tremendous growth, global temperatures did not rise, and even declined for a period of time. Remember, the controversy is not whether global warming is taking place, but whether it is being caused by natural phenomena or human activity, and whether reversing or curbing the human activity, specifically CO2 levels, is a) necessary, b) economically harmful to poor countries, and c) going to make any significant difference, even if it can be done at some reasonable cost. A concurrent discussion is whether any modest global warming in the future may be a net benefit to the world: http://www.newsweek.com/id/35543 The opposing view is illustrated by the following examples from the US Senate report I posted earlier. I have limited these examples in the interests of brevity, and only to make the point that the issue is still being furiously debated within the scientific community: http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.BlogsContentRecord_id=2674e64f-802a-23ad-490b-bd9faf4dcdb7Issue_id= . Mario's Conclusion: The only point to be made here is that there are a significant number of scientists who are not yet convinced that the matter is settled and that the broad consensus being claimed by some, does not yet exist.
Re: [Goanet] Communal tension in Rourkela
Vinay Natekar vinaynate...@... wrote: Do we have to believe in all the copy and paste anti Hindu materials from various fringe sites you post on Goanet are genuine? http://tinyurl.com/christist-attack-hindus Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@... wrote: You have been too immersed in hindutva propaganda to understand or realise the difference. .. Here is an article which critically looks at the reality. Read on. http://www.countercurrents.org/matheikal230209.htm How do we decide whose reality is genuine? Both seem to be relentlessly engaged in partisan political propaganda. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] An Amazing Re-incarnation story - Carvalho
--- On Fri, 2/27/09, edward desilva guirim...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi Selma, Let me put you out of your misery. The Barra boy story is true and Reincarnation is also true, I found no holes in it. I guess that settles it then. Selma has no choice now but to believe in reincarnation. How can she not trust a random Goanetter who saw a show on European TV with his own eyes, which revealed to him the ultimate truth? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Global warming: A cause for concern
The U. S. National Academy of Sciences, one of the world's most prestigious scientific organizations has provided the following update on the science behind global warming: http://dels.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/climate_change_2008_final.pdf It should clarify doubts and answer basic questions regarding this topic. Cheers, Santosh --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net wrote: What is your explanation for the number of reputable scientists who disagree that the global climate change we see today is being caused by human activity, as outlined in the following opposing report: http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.BlogsContentRecord_id=2674e64f-802a-23ad-490b-bd9faf4dcdb7Issue_id= Can you also update us on:
Re: [Goanet] An Amazing Re-incarnation story
Selma, Ian Stevenson at University of Virginia devoted his life to studying such cases, and came up empty handed as far as proving the authenticity of the claims is concerned. His student Satwant Pasricha continues to investigate these anecdotes at the National Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences in Bangalore, where I worked for some time. From what I remember, almost all of their cases can be explained by mundane factors, such as stories told by visitors and playmates. It is virtually impossible to rule out such contamination in general. Cheers, Santosh --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: It features a British boy who is convinced he had a previous life on an island called Barra. I've pasted a link for those who want to read up on this boy. http://www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/misc/reincarnation.html What makes the story amazing is that so many of the details he remembered were verified by a trip to the island of Barra. I wonder, and maybe Santosh specifically could shed some light here, because I more often than not tend to be skeptical about these things, has there ever been a scientific explanation put forward for past life recollections that add up. Best, selma
Re: [Goanet] Slum dog millionaire
--- On Thu, 2/26/09, Nascy Caldeira nascy...@yahoo.com.au wrote: All this is due to the Uncouth, Primitive Cultured Fascist and neo Fascists parties and communities, I dare say. What does this guy mean by uncouth, primitive cultured fascist and neo-fascist communities? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Global warming: A cause for concern
--- On Thu, 2/26/09, Gabriel de Figueiredo gdefigueir...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Well, human activity aka greenhouse effect, is not necessarily the cause of climate change. The above statement is false in more than one way. The term Greenhouse effect refers to the phenomenon wherein certain gases in the atmosphere prevent the Earth from radiating its heat into space. As a result there is an increase in the atmospheric, surface and deep sea temperatures. The main gases that cause this warming are water vapor, carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide and chlorofluorocarbons. The Greenhouse effect can therefore result from both natural and man-made causes. Scientific evidence from several independent sources now indicates that the global climate change that we see today is substantially due to the net increase in carbon dioxide levels caused by human activity. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] GOA: Shiv Sena warns V-Day revellers not to 'cross limits
This moral policing by Hindu extremists is appalling. I think Goan colleges should call the real police on these guys, and make sure they are kept at least half a kilometer away from each campus. Pre-emptive law enforcement action is the only answer against them. Cheers, Santosh --- On Thu, 2/12/09, Gabe Menezes gabe.mene...@gmail.com wrote: Shiv Sena warns V-Day revellers not to 'cross limits' Speaking to reporters, state Shiv Sena unit president Upendra Gaonkar Thursday said Shiv Sena activists have been asked to reconnoitre college campuses in Goa to ensure that students do not go 'overboard' with their emotions Feb 14.
Re: [Goanet] Gavin D'Costa ... on Darwin and Christians (Times Higher Education)
--- On Thu, 2/12/09, Goanet News news.goa...@gmail.com wrote: Third, if theology is confident of its truth and there is still a contradiction, science must be subject to rigorous scrutiny, especially its presuppositions and context. This is nonsense. Theology of which religion? Why should science care what a theologian of any religion says? Theologies and atheologies have nothing to do with science. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Fanatic Christian Principal
--- On Tue, 2/10/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@... wrote: ***I cannot answer for you, since there is no religion for you. God is a figment of mind. Let each one search and find out. Dialogue will help us to find out the answer. Aren't you discriminating against me by refusing to answer my question? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Fanatic Christian Principal
--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: But all religions cannot be equally good. They can also be distorted. We are left with a choice. All ways to a goal are not equally good, we choose the best one. When there are several remedies of different trade marks and medical companies, we choose the best ones. The physician is careful to give what he thinks is the best product for the patients. Which religion is the best? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] North East
--- On Sun, 2/8/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: An institution linked to the RSS and headed by persons associated with the RSS is considered multipartisan. Ha ha ha!! That was a good joke. Tell us another one, just like the other one, tell us another one too .. The above claims that the Institute for Conflict Management and the persons associated with it are linked to the RSS are blatant falsehoods. Even the tenuous earlier statement from a nameless blog that one of its principals, Dr. Ajai Sahni was a member of ABVP or Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad when he was a student is not supported by any other independent source. Please see the result of this Google search: http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=%22Dr.+Ajai+Sahni%22+ABVPbtnG=Google+Searchaq=foq= Ironically, this search and another one for Dr. Ajai Sahni Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad yields the following link: http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/sair/Archives/7_16.htm Please note this quote on the Malegaon and Modasa bomb blasts in particular: QUOTE Hindu Jagran Manch behind the Malegaon and Modasa bomb blasts, claims Maharashtra Police: The Maharashtra Police on October 22 claimed that the Hindu Jagran Manch, an Indore (Madhya Pradesh)-based Hindu extremist group was responsible for the September 29 bomb blasts in Malegaon (Maharashtra) and Modasa (Gujarat). This extremist group reportedly has links with the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP), the student wing of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS). A day after, on October 23, the Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) arrested three persons on charges of being involved in the September 29 blast in Malegaon. They were identified as a Sadhvi Pragnya Singh Chandrapal Singh, Shiv Narayan Gopal Singh Kalsanghra, and Shyam Bhawarlal Sahu. While Pragnya Singh was arrested from Surat (Gujarat), the other two persons were arrested from unspecified places in Madhya Pradesh. Subsequently, the Nashik Chief Judicial Magistrate’s Court remanded the arrested to Police custody till November 3. The three accused reportedly had started the Rashtriya Jagran Manch, a sister organisation of the RSS. They have been booked under various sections of the Indian Explosives Act and the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act. The ATS chief Hemant Karkare said that the Forensic Sciences Laboratory (FSL) report had revealed traces of RDX in the September 29 blast in Malegaon. Indian Express ; The Hindu, October 23-24, 2008. UNQUOTE Now please tell me if any organization that was linked to ABVP or RSS would have posted the above news as a statement of fact on their website. Other searches for Dr. Ajai Sahni Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and Institute for Conflict Management Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh provide absolutely no official or unofficial connections between these entities. The reliance on unnamed partisan blogs by the author of the above post to make wild, provocative and slanderous statements against organizations and people is very disturbing. Please check out the webpages of the blog which was used by him as a source of information in this forum to slander members of the Institute for Conflict Management: http://sanghparivar.wordpress.com/ Can anybody tell me who its owner is? Who claims responsibility for the authenticity of the information displayed on it? Why is this blog attacking everybody who speaks out against violence committed by Maoist extremists, is a businessman, or is in favor of capitalism? The other disturbing fact about the above poster is the inability to understand that it is wrong to engage in guilt by association to slander somebody in a public forum. The height of such egregious behavior was a wife being deemed guilty by virtue of being associated with her husband who may or may not be connected with a political party that the poster is opposed to. The joke really is that the wife actually belongs to the Congress party. Please see this incredible quote from the said shady blog in terms of the scope of dishonesty that it displays: QUOTE Ms Rani Gargi Bloeria, is the wife of former Chief Secretary of Jammu and Kashmir, Dr Sudhir S Bloeria. He is a soldier-turned-bureaucrat who served as additional secretary (Kashmir Affairs) in the Union home ministry prior to his appointment as enforcement director. In fact his wife represents him in the organization. In 2005, Ms. Rani Gargi Bloeria elected as the Deputy Mayor of Jammu Municipality along with BJP candidate Shri Kavinder Gupta as the Mayor! It proves her proximity with Hindutva forceshttp://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Contentpa=showpagepid=69page=1 even though she represent India's secularist party, Indian National Congress. UNQUOTE Despite all this, since the poster has claimed that he can take on anybody in a debate because of his knowledge of facts, I would like to ask him again to provide statistical facts regarding fatalities from terrorism
Re: [Goanet] North East
--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Nascy Caldeira nascy...@yahoo.com.au wrote: U have surely 'lost the plot' much earlier, and now I feel that U are loosing it, and that's for sure! U know what I mean. I nor any goanettors, do not need to be a 'Scientist' or a neurosurgeon/ scientist to 'read you', behind the lines. Hi Nasci, Good to hear from you. Tell me, how many Goanetters misunderstand what is written on Goanet as well as you do? BTW, do you know Jacob George who is linked with Australian corporates? Can you do me a favor and check whether he wears western shirt and pants? Otherwise, he might be a Hindu. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] North East
--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Would you be kind enough to substantiate what you written above giving references to the sources of your information? I substantiate below my assertion that more lives are being lost from violence based on religion, politics and ideology in the North-East than any other part of India, including Kashmir. Here are the fatalities of civilians and security force personnel due to terrorism and left-wing extremism in different parts of India, and in the states having the top two highest numbers of such fatalities, during 2008 and 2007. 20082007 North-East 444 518 North 194 375 East292 140 West335 2 South33 88 Center 102 277 Assam 240 288 Kashmir 159 285 I have calculated these figures from the data provided by The Institute for Conflict Management through their South Asia Terrorism Portal at the following websites: http://satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/database/indiafatalities.htm http://satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/database/fatalitiesnaxal.htm Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Of Partisanship, loyalty and Christian fundamentalism
I believe everything that Selma has written in her post below, and what Marlon has said about her. My disagreement with her in my last post is limited to the specific comment I made. I have also had a few other disagreements. But the world would have been a dull place for me if we had agreed on everything. Cheers, Santosh --- On Sun, 2/8/09, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: Yes Marlon, we have known each other for nearly ten years now :-) How time flies. We were all a lot younger then :-) If you ask me honestly whether I am partisan, perhaps I am. Only to the point of being afraid for Christians in India and loyal to them to a fault. We are all human beings, our ethno-religious identity is an important one and as human beings we will do all to safe-guard it. This is not a vice in a human being, its a virtue. I would do the same to protect my child, my family, my country. In that order. Am I partisan that I cannot see the wood from the trees? Not at all. When I first came on Goanet, Santosh was being hounded by quite a few Christian zealots who thought he was being disrespectful to Christianity. I believe I was one of his staunch supporters. Perhaps my partisan slip was well hidden then. I would do the same this very day again. No person should ever be hounded for beliefs that do not intrude or infringe on others. I've been very vocal about the many wrongs in Christian thinking, from professing the superiority of its beliefs, to its almost diabolical condemnation of homosexuality to its perpetuation of a belief in Creationism. There is a time when we must assess what is wrong within our community and there is a time when we must stand up for it and protect it and for me that time is now. In closing, I would like to say a word about fundamentalism. It cannot thrive without state protection. To speak of militant Christian fundamentalism in India is a oxymoron, because fundamentalism, like racism is virtually defunct without state protection. And that is what is worrying in India at the moment. Best, Selma
Re: [Goanet] North-eastern states of India
--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Without being modest I can confidently state that I can take them on any debate. They pathetically lack knowledge of facts and rely more on rhetoric, sarcasm, ridicule, one-upmanship and last wordism. I did not know that the man had such a high opinion of himself. The rationalization offered for copy and paste jobs is rather weak. But I would love to see what he means by debate and knowledge of facts. It is certainly true that nobody can take him on as far as copying and pasting recycled news stories from fringe websites is concerned. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] North East
The guilts by association dug up by Marshall in the following post are very creative and funny. The best ones are: Prof. George Jacob, is a career academician with links with Australian corporates and neo cons. Mr. K.P.S. Gill http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=KPS_Gill, former Director General of Police of Punjab is the President of this institution. He is more known as Butcher of Punjab due to his extra judicial killing history in Punjab. Ms Rani Gargi Bloeria, is the wife of former Chief Secretary of Jammu and Kashmir, Dr Sudhir S Bloeria. I am sure this guy can link anybody and their relatives and pets to some organization that is opposed to or by his partisan ideology. However, the only people I know who would be opposed to Australian corporates are communists and Marxists. I am not sure why he cares about their point of view, and why that would impress Goanetters very much. I also noticed that one of the organizations to whose website he has referred is a foreign organization militating against the Indian government because of its counter-insurgency actions in Punjab. Here is the link to their website: http://www.ensaaf.org/ But more importantly, people who are interested in evidence and objective data can look up and find out exactly how the Institute for Conflict Management obtained the fatality numbers that I provided. Every single fatality is documented through law enforcement sources and mainstream media reports. For example, here is a link to the record of fatalities in major incidents in Nagaland for the year 2008: http://satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/nagaland/index.html Having provided fatality numbers in India from a source that I consider to be multi-partisan, and whose authenticity can be verified independently from mainstream media and law enforcement agencies, I would request Marshall to provide such numbers from his own partisan sources. Apparently, he has knowledge of facts, and has read a lot about the North-East. So let us see how his statistical facts contradict what I have provided. Cheers, Santosh --- On Sun, 2/8/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Response: I did a quick google search on the institute to find out its credentials. And guess what I found. Refer below. Need I say more Regards, Marshall /
Re: [Goanet] Karnataka - the new bastion of Hindu
--- On Fri, 2/6/09, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: Is Marshall Mendonca, fabricating news or is he reporting news as it happens? When one merely copies and pastes, the fabrication, if any, would have to be done by the partisan website from which one copies. When one circulates news reports from mainstream media outlets such as Times of India, one has to cherry-pick items that serve to promote one's own partisan agenda, and ignore other similar stories from other quarters e.g. murders committed by communists. Both types of activities have been noted on Goanet. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Karnataka - the new bastion of Hindu
--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: What one sees depends on where one stands. This appears to be an admission of bias in the conduct of this copy and paste campaign. Given this admission, it would be good to know what people of other perspectives have to say about these issues. I am particularly interested in what reasonably neutral observers have to say about issues affecting Goa and India. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] North-eastern states of India (earlier karnataka the new Hindu bastion )
This is a good start. It would be nice if we could have a balanced account from some reliable neutral source on how Hindu, Muslim, Christian and other religious and political forms of extremism have affected tribal societies in India. One would like to know about all violent forces disrupting the lives of these people. This is especially important because more lives are being lost from violence based on religion, politics and ideology in the North-East than any other part of India, including Kashmir. Cheers, Santosh --- On Sat, 2/7/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: 2.The northeast has been neglected and has suffered tremendously since independence. For one, it is geographically separated and isolated from the rest of India. It is divided into multiple tribes many of them from warrior races (some even head-hunters), each tribe having its own language and dialect, some following the matriarchial system, influx of people from outside who do not understand or appreciate its unique culture,lack of employment opportunities (there being no industries), treated as a colony by New Delhi with bureaucrats coming on deputation, throwing their weight around, living like rulers, harsh laws, excesses carried out by the Indian security forces, extremely corrupt politicians, bad governance, drugs, alcoholism, sharing of ethnicity, food habits and culture with south east asian neighbours, impact of partition, liberation of Bangladesh and influx of people from there, etc
Re: [Goanet] Fanaticism
--- On Sat, 2/7/09, marlon menezes goa...@yahoo.com wrote: Selma, I actually agree with your sentiments and with much of what you say. The real issue is what concrete actions can individuals like us, who are thousands of miles from our motherland take? It is good to see Marlon posting again more regularly on contentious topics related to secularism. The problem I have with Selma's response to him is that she appeared to be asking him to fall in line with her mode of thinking, and of those of her ilk, by virtue of the fact that they belong to a particular religious community. This type of an appeal to communal groupism is not a very healthy thing in a secular forum. Secularism thrives when there are free thinking individuals who follow their individual consciences, and express their opinions in an unfettered manner with no allegiance to anybody except to the ideals and principles that they hold dear. That is why it is good that we have people like Marlon, Vidyadhar, Cornel and Samir who are more critical of the failings of their own community than those of others. My own preference is, of course, criticism of the excesses of all communities in an even-handed manner, based on firm evidence, and without recourse to speculations and generalizations. I also think that most regular folk are basically non-violent. Therefore, while there always will be criminals and extremists in all societies, crime and extremist violence can never receive widespread support. On the other hand softer prejudices and atrocities such as campaigns against artistic freedom, food habits, Valentine's day, homosexuality, contraception, western music and entertainment, etc. find wider acceptance. That is why they need to be spoken out against with equal force. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Karnataka - the new bastion of Hindu
--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: The poster assumes and concludes that the above sentence applies to others but not to himself. This is an obvious deception. I have made no such assumption. I have stated my biases quite clearly on many occasions. One of my biases is not to trust anything that is copied and pasted from what I consider to be partisan websites. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Karnataka - the new bastion of Hindu
--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Roland Francis roland.fran...@gmail.com wrote: And who would you term a reasonably neutral observer Santosh? Specifically which individuals on Goanet do you have in mind and whom would you find definitely not reasonably neutral? Hi Roland, Good question. On the issues in question in Goa I would say Valmiki Faleiro, Basilio Monteiro, Vivek Menezes (VM), Venantius Pinto, Vivian D'Souza, Nandakumar Kamat, Prajal Sakhardande and Cecil Pinto, just to name a few. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Karnataka - the new bastion of Hindu
--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Roland Francis roland.fran...@gmail.com wrote: I may point out that by saying from what I consider to be partisan websites, Santosh is unwittingly but clearly betraying his own partisanship. At the very least his subjectivity, while striving very hard to demonstrate his non-partisanship and objectivity. Roland, Please read my comment carefully. I admitted it is my bias. I am biased against partisans and their websites. However, one can use objective criteria to recognize partisanship. You don't have to be a partisan to do so. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Karnataka - the new bastion of Hindu
Hi Sandeep, I have seen that Stephen Knapp site. I usually avoid all such partisan sites. I find this war between fringe websites revolting. That is why I have serious reservations against people who peddle this type of information in a thoughtless manner. Did you see how Vinay saw Marshall's UCANews and raised him Haindava Keralam? What kind of madness is this? If you go hunting for stories of crimes in which some religious issue is involved, I bet there will be plenty taking place every single day. One can support any narrative one wants by cherry-picking the right cases. What good is this type of activism or journalism? What purpose does it serve? Cheers, Santosh --- On Thu, 2/5/09, Sandeep Heble sandeephe...@gmail.com wrote: I largely agree with Santosh's views on this. A one sided copy-paste campaign is hardly what the doctor would order for a harmonious, secular, progressive and a liberal society. If Hindu fundamentalism exists in our Country, so does Islamic and Christian fundamentalism. A quick google search directed me to the following links: http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christian_terrorism_in_northeast_india.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism There are a lot more links like these but the above 2 would suffice for the moment, though I have not verified them for their authenticity. I have not followed this debate too closely but all that I would wish to add for the time being is that the Christian Right-wing threat looms as large over the secular and liberal fabric of India as that of the Islamic or the Hindu Right-Wing. In fact, Christian fundamentalism in the North East is threatening to break the very idea of India into pieces. Any person truly concerned about the progress of India and worried about the religious extremism that prevails in our Country cannot find faults with one while living in denial with the other.
Re: [Goanet] Fanatic Christian Principal insults National anthem to approve Prayer on Jesus
I don't see anything so fancy. In fact, questioning allegiance to the Pope is an old idea that lingers among some old timers, and will die with them. What I see is extremist political campaigners on both sides go after each other by creating cranky rant sites that cull the news media for any report that can be used as is or blown out of proportion to advance a partisan agenda. Cheers, Santosh --- On Fri, 2/6/09, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: Now begins Phase III of the Hindutva campaign against Christians in India. Phase I - That Christians are responsible for the Inquisition. Phase II - That Christians are indulging in mass conversions. Phase III- Almost on cue, phase III has started. That somehow Christians are not loyal Indians, that their loyalty belongs elsewhere. Why else would they object to the National Anthem being played? This curious trick has already been played well on the Muslims. It has been considerably effective. After all given Pakistan's proximity to India, given our history during Partition, and Pakistan's insidious and subversive engagement in India's internal affairs, it is easy to convince people that Muslim loyalties lie with Pakistan. Even I am not immune to such propaganda. Of course the shoe begins to hurt when it's placed on the foot of my own community. Now, it becomes apparent, how this game is played out in India. I'm quite sure in another two years, even moderate Hindus in India will be questioning whether Christian allegiance really does belong to a distant Pope that sits in the Vatican. Cheers Vinay!! how well you represent the truth about your country.
Re: [Goanet] Karnataka - the new bastion of Hindu
Dr. Jen wrote: Very worried, I must say. Any goon under some pretext is able to indulge in violence/wrongdoing and many amongst us support him. The very fact that some of our colleagues and acquaintances are able to justify these violent acts is a matter of concern. This is a very serious accusation. That there are some regular people amongst us, and colleagues and acquaintances who support and justify violence. I hope these people are aware that such accusations are made against them in a public forum. The obvious questions to ask are: What is wrong with them? Why are they so immoral? Is it their upbringing, their religion, the fact that they are different in some way or something else? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Karnataka - the new bastion of Hindu
Two things are apparent from the following post. The Roman numerals introduced by Selma might be appropriate to enumerate them. I) The man is trying hard to deny that the motive behind his non-stop copy and paste campaign is political, and II) He seems to be oblivious of the fact that relentless recycling of stale news for shock value does nothing to promote the secular cause among people who are suspicious of any kind of propaganda. Cheers, Santosh --- On Fri, 2/6/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Response: For those who wish to live in denial, they will continue to do so and will find any number of reasons and justifications for their actions. The poster instead of focussing on the message attributes motives to the messenger in an attempt to obfuscate issues and divert attention. If these incidents were not taking place, the media would not be reporting on them. It is so obvious. Like the chinese proverb says you can wake up a person who is sleeping but one cannot wake up a person who is pretending to be asleep
Re: [Goanet] Karnataka - the new bastion of Hindu
This is what I think. Most people of any religious community do not hate people of other religious communities, enough to commit violence against them or impute evil motives to them. Those who attack, vandalize or kill others marginalize and ostracize themselves by their actions. No normal sane person would support these criminals, so any generalization and extrapolation to society or community at large based on the atrocious actions of the few is gratuitous and counterproductive. It tends to be insulting to normal people, irrespective of which community it is directed act, and even if no insult is intended. The only purpose then, that I can think of, for anybody to continue doing so day in and day out by spouting provocative rhetoric, or engaging in a single-minded copy and paste campaign, is political, and it is tawdry. Cheers, Santosh Selma wrote: And what is particularly worrying and disheartening, is that moderate, unbiased, secular Dr Santosh, seems to want to either be in denial of the gravity of the situation or find some tangential explanation for it. Instead he chooses to think that Marshall's and my posts are in bad taste. Marshall is informing the public about what is happening. He is not fabricating these situation, merely reporting on them. If this is in bad taste, I wonder what constitutes good taste?
Re: [Goanet] Karnataka - the new bastion of Hindu intolerance.
How worried do we have to be that sooner or later the majority of Indians in Goa and other states will want to assault girls in bars and kill Christians? Cheers, Santosh --- On Wed, 2/4/09, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Goanet] Karnataka - the new bastion of Hindu intolerance. To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Cc: mmendonz...@gmail.com Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 3:21 AM Dear Marshall, Thank you for those news articles, which are chilling to the bone. In a perverse way, the Mangalore pub incident is good news, because now we know that no one is safe from Hindu extremism. That sooner or later some excuse will be found to attack the disadvantaged and disenfranchised. It's interesting that India is paddling backwards so fast, we can't even catch our breath.
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
--- On Mon, 2/2/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@... wrote: Dr.Santosh can learn from me not only about Christianity but also about the correct interpretation of neuroscientific experiments. This is obviously a fantasy. Fr. Ivo is not capable of interpreting neuroscientific experiments correctly because he has not even an elementary education and training in neuroscience, let alone how to conduct neuroscientific research. What is also clear is that he simply does not grasp the main point that I have been repeatedly making. My main point is that the interpretations of neuroscientific experiments do not involve claiming any role for supernatural entities such as god and soul, or any kind of supernatural plane of existence. The services of a Christian theologian are not required to interpret of any of our experiments. This is true even for experiments related to religious experiences. For example, Mario Beauregard, the scientist that Fr. Ivo keeps quoting has published two short papers on mystical experiences in Carmelite nuns. The abstract of one of these short papers is given below: QUOTE Neural correlates of a mystical experience in Carmelite nuns. Beauregard M, Paquette V. Département de Psychologie, Université de Montréal, Montréal, Que., Canada. mario.beaureg...@... The main goal of this functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) study was to identify the neural correlates of a mystical experience. The brain activity of Carmelite nuns was measured while they were subjectively in a state of union with God. This state was associated with significant loci of activation in the right medial orbitofrontal cortex, right middle temporal cortex, right inferior and superior parietal lobules, right caudate, left medial prefrontal cortex, left anterior cingulate cortex, left inferior parietal lobule, left insula, left caudate, and left brainstem. Other loci of activation were seen in the extra-striate visual cortex. These results suggest that mystical experiences are mediated by several brain regions and systems. UNQUOTE There is nothing intelligent or insightful that Fr. Ivo can say to the authors or to myself on the interpretation that These results suggest that mystical experiences are mediated by several brain regions and systems. Consistent with what I had told you earlier, the authors of the above paper have concluded nothing about god, soul, Christianity, Buddhism, spiritualism or religion. So Fr. Ivo's religious beliefs and any comments he makes on these extraneous issues are of no value to the above neuroscientific interpretation. Moreover, all of Fr. Ivo's comments, as those of the Jesuit priests and the physiology professor he has quoted, are clearly of a very general and platitudinous nature. From my experience I can say that no neuroscientist is naive enough to believe that they give us any specific insight into anything related to the brain. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Biased Reporting by Media
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com Vinay has a point. In my opinion, one should use the term Muslim extremists or zealots in the first case, and Hindu extremists or zealots in the second case. Both communal bias and squeamish political correctness around religious issues, affecting today's journalism is a problem that needs to be addressed candidly and head-on. Cheers, Santosh --- On Fri, 1/30/09, Vinay Natekar vinaynate...@yahoo.com wrote: In these incidents they were either activists/workers or hooligans/zealots and if the religion was a factor in this case it should have been reported in both. In my opinion the culprits who are stupid rascals who are using the name of our revered god Ram should be booked under offence of violence against women and punished severely because such actions can not be tolerated in a civilized society. But my concern is that the acts of these few vested interests should not be equated with the term like Hindu terror by this prejudiced media.
Re: [Goanet] Priests and their fundamental rights
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com --- On Fri, 1/30/09, edward desilva guirim...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Actions speak louder than your meaningless 'chamcha' words. I think what he means by meaningless 'chamcha' words is words such as dittermined and refelct that have no meaning in the English language taught in a secular school that also teaches Hindi and Marathi. Cheers, Santosh edward desilva guirim...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: How is Good and Bad dittermined? If you fall back and refelct.
Re: [Goanet] Church - back to front
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Cecil Pinto cecilpi...@gmail.com wrote: Interestingly when you are inside a church the section closer to the main entrance is called the back of the church with the altar section being the front. But when you are standing outside a church the main entrance is called the front with the altar now being the back of the church. It is the same in a bus. When you enter through the back door, when the kilinder says Mukhar vos re, you have to go to the front of the bus. When you enter through the front door, if he says Mukhar vos re, you have to go to the back of the bus. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Priests and their fundamental rights
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: **The State is not a model in teaching to critically discern the truth. The Church is playing a very important role in the education of children. Most Hindus and Muslims, besides Christians, have taken its benefit... I am not sure what he means by this statement. Does state have no role to play in the education of children? Only the Church can critically discern the truth for all children, even the Muslim and Hindu ones, because it is playing a very important role in education? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com Fr. Ivo wrote: Buddhism is a practical way of life. Christianity is a way of life based on the truths revealed by God himself. This pretty much sums up why we cannot learn about anything other than Christianity from Fr. Ivo. As far as neuroscience is concerned, my worry is that he is imparting negative knowledge in this public forum. So let me just bring your knowledge into positive territory. The most important thing to know is that neuroscience has no interest in god or the soul because these are supernatural constructs. Neuroscience is the scientific study of the brain which is a natural biological object. The only conditions under which this field of knowledge has to deal with anything connected with religion is when people claim to have religious experiences. This can happen normally in fully normal pious people or in some abnormal conditions, such as temporal lobe epilepsy. When neuroscientists who are interested in studying what happens inside the brain during these experiences have performed modern tests such as functional MRI, they have found that certain areas of the brain become electrically very active. They have also found differences in brain activation between religious and non-religious people. All this tells us is that such experiences and states of mind are likely to be produced by particular patterns of activity in the brain. It tells us nothing about the existence or non-existence of any supernatural being or realm. If any neuroscientist tells you that it says something about God or soul or other realities, then he would not be practicing neuroscience. No sane and self-respecting neuroscientist would want to risk damage to his professional reputation by claiming that he has uncovered the soul or found an explanation for god or some other such codswallop, as Mario would say. If he writes a book with such a title, then it is mostly because his publisher wants to create a sensation to sell his book. Either that or the neuroscientist is mixing his religious belief with his science, and misleading the public, which according to me is highly unethical. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain - A petition of hate
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com I second Sandeep's condemnation. I also call on people not to support and contribute to the organizations that are responsible for this shameful petition. Cheers, Santosh --- On Wed, 1/28/09, Sandeep Heble sandeephe...@gmail.com wrote: Dear all, Placed below is a Petition on contemporary India's pioneer artist M.F. Husain. The petition is being circulated in Hindu groups and circles. The petition is accompanied by pictures of Hussain's Art with misleading captions. An environment of hatred against Liberal Art in general and Hussain in particular is being created in the minds of thousands of Hindus, through circulating such petitions based on a one-sided propaganda full of misrepresentations and a general lack of understanding of Art. M.F. Hussain, the 94 year old artist, has spent 7 decades of his illustrious career being influenced by the richness of Hindu culture and traditions. Today, he is being subjected to the worst kinds of insults and abuse. A petition of this kind is not only an insult to the Picasso of India but is an insult to the rich, composite and plural culture that India represents. Art values and principles of Freedom of expressions are being put under serious threat through such a poisoning-of- the- minds. To protect and preserve Indian Art and the rights of Indian Artists, thought processes like these need to be nipped in the bud. I strongly condemn this petition.
Re: [Goanet] Republic Day thoughts
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com My problem with demands for imposing such a patriotic song on school children is that the intent is purely political with an eye towards inciting nationalistic fervor, and creating an issue that has the potential to divide the electorate. This is exactly the kind of wedge strategy that has been followed in the U.S. for the last three decades on school prayer, intelligent design and a variety of other religious and pseudo-patriotic issues. Cheers, Santosh --- On Sun, 1/25/09, Sandeep Heble sandeephe...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps the only sensible demand that was made here was for the implementation of the National song Vande Mataram in schools. While the overall demands became the scope of a major debate and many of the objections were entirely valid from secular and liberal quarters, what came across as entirely surprising was the objection to the implementation of Vande Mataram in schools.
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com Why are these advocates of one particular religion poking their nose into brain science? Why don't they stick to what they are ordained to do - preach their faith to their followers and to those they hope to convert? What is offensive from the standpoint of a universal intellectual pursuit such as science, as well as from the perspective of other religions is that they are advising others to be cautious about scientific findings that contradict their own parochial beliefs. The clear implication is that their own religious beliefs about the natural world take precedence over hard scientific evidence. Contrast this medieval censorship and interference in non-religious affairs based on the dogma of one solitary religion to the open-mindedness and deference shown to science by Dalai Lama who addressed a gathering of neuroscientists a few years back. This is what he said: BEGIN QUOTE On the philosophical level, both Buddhism and modern science share a deep suspicion of any notion of absolutes, whether conceptualized as a transcendent being, as an eternal, unchanging principle such as soul, or as a fundamental substratum of reality. Both Buddhism and science prefer to account for the evolution and emergence of the cosmos and life in terms of the complex interrelations of the natural laws of cause and effect. From the methodological perspective, both traditions emphasize the role of empiricism. For example, in the Buddhist investigative tradition, between the three recognized sources of knowledge - experience, reason and testimony - it is the evidence of the experience that takes precedence, with reason coming second and testimony last. This means that, in the Buddhist investigation of reality, at least in principle, empirical evidence should triumph over scriptural authority, no matter how deeply venerated a scripture may be. Even in the case of knowledge derived through reason or inference, its validity must derive ultimately from some observed facts of experience. Because of this methodological standpoint, I have often remarked to my Buddhist colleagues that the empirically verified insights of modern cosmology and astronomy must compel us now to modify, or in some cases reject, many aspects of traditional cosmology as found in ancient Buddhist texts. END QUOTE Dalai Lama Please note his acceptance of the fact that scientific findings always trump the ancient scriptures, wisdom and teachings of his faith, and his willingness to revise his religious beliefs in the face of incontrovertible empirical evidence. Here is the link to the text of his entire speech: http://www.mindandlife.org/dalai.lama.sfndc.html Cheers, Santosh --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@... wrote: Dear Goanetters, I have been discussing long ago about the dialogue between Science and Religion. My answers were rooted in the knowledge of Science and Religion. We need to discuss and clarify concepts which may be vital for us all. Let us see what we have to say about soul from the viewpoint of Science and of Religion. ***Soul, God Are Beyond Realm Of Neuroscience, Jesuit Experts Tell Seminar January 22, 2009 LONAVALA, India (UCAN) -- The realities of the soul, spirituality and God-experience remain outside the domain of science, regardless of neuroscientific advancements, two Jesuit scholars stressed at a recent Seminar.
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com The two news reports circulated by Fr. Ivo contain bogus information and distortions regarding the findings of brain science. Contrary to what has been claimed, no mainstream neuroscientist has ever concerned himself with studying the existence of supernatural entities such as God or the soul as part of his/her scientific research. The priests, the physiology professor and/or the authors of the news reports appear to be fabricating or falsely speculating and erecting straw men on the basis of their superficial knowledge of what is written in the lay or popular science press. These fantasies appear to stem from not being able to understand the interpretations of results of some experiments that map what happens in the brains of people who claim to be having religious experiences. As far as the existence of a natural mind or self as separate and distinct from the brain is concerned, an overwhelming amount of objective neurological evidence indicates that such a substance dualistic scenario is untenable. In addition to their misrepresentation of scientific findings, I am deeply concerned about the fact that the Jesuit priests are reported to be exhorting people to challenge these findings or view them with caution on the basis of their own pharisaic religious dogmas. They also appear to be projecting themselves as speaking for all religions, when the Dalai Lama has clearly contradicted them from the Buddhist standpoint. Here are the contradictory assertions: FR. IVO'S COPIED AND PASTED NEWS REPORT QUOTE Contending that the human soul and spirituality are fundamental to all religions, he insisted that religious believers need to challenge the conclusion that new findings demonstrate that brain is the soul. UNQUOTE DALAI LAMA'S STATEMENT QUOTE On the philosophical level, both Buddhism and modern science share a deep suspicion of any notion of absolutes, whether conceptualized as a transcendent being, as an eternal, unchanging principle such as soul, or as a fundamental substratum of reality. UNQUOTE I quote below excerpts in support of my contention that the two priests and the physiology professor (or the news reporters) are pulling wool over the eyes of their audience/readers with regard to their allusions to neuroscientific findings. None of the following claims about neuroscience is true: QUOTE The priest said in his keynote address that while all human experiences have both physical and spiritual dimensions, research in neuroscience could not reduce the soul to the brain. UNQUOTE QUOTE Today, however, some neuroscientists have claimed to have uncovered the soul and spirituality through brain imaging and mapping, artificial intelligence, computer science in researching the human brain and mind, the priest continued. UNQUOTE QUOTE Contending that the human soul and spirituality are fundamental to all religions, he insisted that religious believers need to challenge the conclusion that new findings demonstrate that brain is the soul. UNQUOTE QUOTE The neuroscientists are contending that God, the human soul and spirituality can be explained in terms of neural networks, neurotransmitters and brain chemistry. And many believers are offended by their notion that God is a creation of the human brain instead of the other way around, he said. UNQUOTE QUOTE He urged religious believers to welcome emerging ideas, but cautioned against blind acceptance. Although neurological studies could shed light on the mysterious workings of the brain, any claim to prove or disprove God through neurological studies must be taken with caution. UNQUOTE (The irony of the use of the term blind acceptance by a priest who has to operate on the basis of dogma should not be lost on anybody) QUOTE He said the human person cannot be reduced to super-conscious matter as asserted by some neuroscientists. Human beings are not hard-wired for belief in God, but deep down, human beings hunger for God, he said. UNQUOTE QUOTE Such experiences, he added, cannot be researched and quantified on the psychological basis of the neuronal functions of the brain. UNQUOTE Cheers, Santosh --- On Sat, 1/24/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@... wrote: ***Totally wrong. Theologians are not poking their nose by speaking of soul, but scientists are poking their nose into religion and theology by denying soul in the name of Science. I have already repeated ad nauseam that the research
Re: [Goanet] Save the Environment: Eat Beef!
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com There are two points of misunderstanding here. The output of greenhouse gases from live cattle is about 3.5%. The output from automobiles is 17%. But more importantly, 100% of the output from natural sources like cattle or human emissions is recycled, as opposed to only 50% from artificial sources such as burning of fossil fuels. The remaining 50% accumulates in the atmosphere. Cheers, Santosh --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Anthony M Barreto tonymarti...@yahoo.com wrote: But mass slaughter of the world’s cattle is no solution and besides that would have been okay if we could milk aircrafts. But figuratively up to now it is airlines that have been milking us – budget airlines being no exception. Mass massacre apart, as an environmentalist I do my bit by being a beef eater. And like minded people should consider the option and help reduce global warming.
[Goanet] Bogus claims about science (Was: Thousands attend .......)
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@... wrote: We use scientific methods for the intepretation of the Christian Scriptures. Many discussions on why it is wrong to make such bogus claims about scientific methods can be retrieved from the Goanet archives. The same thing is true for the nonsensical claims about faith healing and miracle cures. Here is a nice article entitled Inherent Dangers of Faith-Healing Studies telling us why it is dangerous to trust wild pronouncements on faith healing: http://www.sram.org/0802/faith-healing.html Cheers, Santosh --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@... wrote: Faith healing and miracles are not irrational.
Re: [Goanet] Thousands attend Hindu Congregation at Panjim
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com --- On Mon, 1/19/09, edward desilva guirim...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Jesus Christ existed. Ram, Sita, Hanuman, Ravana, God with an Elephant head, are mythological characters. If you want to propagate them as Gods that's your choice. I think Edward Guirimboy is right to some extent. It is not hard to believe that a gentleman called Jesus Christ existed, although one needs faith in the supernatural to believe the miracles that he performed. This is also true as far as Ram, Sita and one-headed Raavann are concerned. But Hanuman and Gannapati are like the miracles of other religions. One needs a heavy dose of faith in the unreal to believe them. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Thousands attend Hindu Congregation at Panjim
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com --- On Fri, 1/16/09, Sandeep Heble sandeephe...@... wrote: That this gathering had Political motives is as true a statement as the Pope is a Catholic! The analogy is bogus because these religious activists are injecting their religion into politics and public affairs, and trying to legally restrict the rights of others. The Pope, on the other hand, is merely preaching to his followers the righteous beliefs of his faith, and perhaps, trying to spread his faith by peaceful persuasion. If you don't like what the Pope is saying you don't have to listen to him or follow him. But if you don't like what the Hindutva activists are planning to do, you have no choice. If they manage to get their way, you will have to restrict your diet, forcibly sing to their tune, and write and paint what they tell you. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] THOUSANDS ATTEND HINDU CONGREGATION AT PANJIM
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com --- On Mon, 1/12/09, Carvalho elisabeth_...@... wrote: Santosh, perhaps you can tell us how the Hindu-Christian relationship is much stronger today than it was in 1961 and also maybe you can elaborate a little bit on which statement of mine was rhetoric. Selma, Perhaps, I will elaborate on this in greater detail sometime later, if I am compelled to do it for some reason. But here are my basic points. 1. Politically, Hindus and Christians and the castes were much more polarized between the two main parties during the MGP-UGP days in the 60's. UGP was supported by Christians and the Hindu GSBs. MGP was supported almost exclusively by the rest of the Hindus. Having watched closely one campaign in particular in the early 70's, I know something about how caste- and religion-based campaigning was done. 2. In terms of culture, Hindus and Christians and the castes have come much closer together today. This is evident from the following: a) Indianization of most Christians and westernization of most Hindus in terms of clothes, language, mannerisms, lifestyle, etc, today compared to the 60s. b) Popularity of western music and movies among the Hindus, and Bollywood music and movies among Christians. One of my regrets is that I spent my childhood without listening to the Beatles, and by being only vaguely aware of them. c) Naming conventions among Christians - A Hindu first name for a Christian was very rare in my childhood. In fact, I suspect people did it only as a political statement. d) Eating habits - beef and pork were rarely eaten by a Hindu then. Today, this is much more common. e) Religious and cultural festivals - Carnival was celebrated mostly by Christians and Narkasur by Hindus. Not true any more. f) Hindu-Christian and inter-caste weddings were exceedingly rare in the 60s and 70s. They are much more common today. g) Eating at a Christian's house or at a restaurant with a Christian cook was taboo in most Hindu circles. There was much greater segregation in the type of food eaten in Goan households on the basis of religion and caste. h) It is thankfully very hard today to distinguish people on the basis of caste or religion from their mannerisms and their speech. i) Sports such as cricket and football are almost equally popular between Hindus and Christians today compared to yesteryears. I could go on, but I will stop here for now. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] THOUSANDS ATTEND HINDU CONGREGATION AT PANJIM
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com --- On Mon, 1/12/09, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com quoted: “But the Hindu Goan is Goan first and then Hindu. He does not in his heart regard his Christian or Moslem neighbor as a stranger to be despised…It is an amazing characteristic of Goan life, that as keenly religious as the Goans are, they heartily respect their neighbour’s creed, whatever it may be. There are no anathemas, no offenses, no slights, no comparisons, and no discriminations. Hindu Goan, Moslem Goan and Christian Goan are cordial to one another in both public life and private, in a manner that many other parts of the world would do well to imitate.” This is still true of most Goan Hindus and most Goans in 2009. To think otherwise on a whim is equally divisive and dangerous. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] The latest Herald article on secularism
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com I have minor disagreements with a couple of points in my friend Basilio's latest Herald article on secularism. Here they are: If secularism is skin-deep, it should not surprise anyone because it is not a lived experience for majority of the people; it does not address or offer meaning to any of the major issues of life and death, loss and destruction, and does not function as a moral leveling or unifying mechanism. It is a recent phenomenon, roughly 300 years old, and has not taken hold of public consciousness; therefore it has not become part of the cultural DNA of the individual, as religion has become. While this is probably true of Europe and United States, secularism, from the agnostic, atheistic and pluralistic standpoints has a long tradition in India extending to more than 2500 years ago. From the atheistic standpoint Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Greece also have a rich history, which in the first three cases goes much farther back than in India. But it is true that unlike religion, which is visceral, secularism is entirely intellectual in nature. It would be very hard to impress its value upon the minds of all folk without increasing the level of literacy in society. So it would be hard to use it as a political trump card with any kind of mass appeal. It has to be enforced through the courts as a constitutional principle. Religion as a socio-anthropological phenomenon will remain with us, even to the chagrin of the secularists (secularism itself takes on the character of religion with all its evolving rituals, beliefs, and missionary like activism). The Indian brand of secularism would have no problem if religion in its many forms continued and grew indefinitely. Indeed, pluralism is enriched by diversification and spread of religious convictions, as long as there is mutual tolerance. Moreover, the greater the diversity of religions, the weaker each of them becomes in terms of wielding any kind of political power because of competing interests. I also do not believe that a rational concept such as secularism can ever become a religion because the latter requires certain core ethereal beliefs that are immutable and are not subject to updating by new knowledge and change in environment. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] THOUSANDS ATTEND HINDU CONGREGATION AT PANJIM
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com --- On Mon, 1/12/09, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: Now, do allow some of us the privilege of having an opinion even if it doesn't have two independent sources to concur with it and hasn't undergone the double-blind testing method. Selma, Now, who has denied you the right of expressing your whimsical opinions on Goanet? Please let me have the privilege of disagreeing with you. You are free to take refuge in innuendo and insinuations. Regarding what you have stated below about Goan election politics, let me just say that your rhetoric does not match with the historical and present-day realities. We are much better off today in Goa, as far Hindu-Christian and caste-based politics is concerned. Cheers, Santosh P.S. BTW, if you think your rhetoric and other kinds of one-sided propaganda on Goanet does not contribute to divisiveness then you are unfortunately mistaken. But you will have to find out the truth for yourself. --- On Mon, 1/12/09, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: Santosh your commentary of late is getting really tiresome. Having done your best to discredit Marshall Mendonca, the Times of India and Frederick Noronha as propagandists, you seem to think that no one other than you is capable of forming an unbiased opinion. One is either misinformed, whimsical or saying things for effect. I'm being neither whimsical nor divisive and dangerous. A cursory look at affairs in Goa will point to it being far from the picture presented to the world in 1961. You may want to live in your own cocoon of comfort but the very fact that Goan loyalty is split between BJP and Congress is a telling sign of how communal and castiest our voting pattern has become. Now, do allow some of us the privilege of having an opinion even if it doesn't have two independent sources to concur with it and hasn't undergone the double-blind testing method.
Re: [Goanet] Stirring the communal cauldron
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com --- On Thu, 1/8/09, Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Fred, Wouldn't you be far more productive, not to mention, honest, if you trained your sights on Narendra Modi and the VHP instead of continuing to slander an American woman whose only connection to the VHP is that she raised funds in the US for earthquake victims in Gujarat. Furthermore, you continue to discredit John Dayal by mentioning him in the same sentence as Vijay Prashad. Unlike Dayal, who can only be accused of bias.. Frederick has finally admitted elsewhere that his views are politically motivated and biased, and that the same is true of everybody else. So I guess that should settle the issue as to why he has to hear from the other side(s) on Goanet. Why independent corroboration of facts, copied and pasted here, is necessary. And why journalists, activists and campaigners need to be questioned and criticized in public forums. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] Fatalities from terrorism and violent left-wing extremism in 2008
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com There is a very good Indian national security think tank, the Institute for Conflict Management, with an anti-terrorist website called South Asia Terrorism Portal (http://satp.org/). I have been reading articles on it off and on for the past few years. They keep track of terrorist activity in India and its neighbors on a month to month basis, and provide an estimate of the fatalities directly attributable to terrorism and violent left-wing extremism each year. The 2008 estimates have just come out. I have calculated the total number of fatalities among civilians and security force personnel as a direct result of terrorism and violent left-wing extremism. The top ten Indian states with such fatalities are as follows: DEATHS OF CIVILIANS AND SECURITY FORCE PERSONNEL Assam --- 240 (directly due to terrorism) Maharashtra - 198 (directly due to terrorism and left-wing extremism) Jammu Kashmir - 159 (directly due to terrorism) Manipur - 144 (directly due to terrorism) Jharkhand --- 113 (directly due to left-wing extremism) Chhattisgarh 102 (directly due to left-wing extremism) Orissa -- 100 (directly due to left-wing extremism) Rajasthan 80 (directly due to terrorism) Gujarat -- 57 (directly due to terrorism) Bihar 56 (directly due to left-wing extremism) The raw data from which these numbers were obtained are located at: Fatalities from terrorism - http://tinyurl.com/7dcbkh Fatalities from violent left-wing extremism - http://tinyurl.com/vlwext Cheers, Santosh P.S. Please independently corroborate the numbers I have provided from other neutral sources.
Re: [Goanet] Goanet] Stirring the communal cauldron
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Roland Francis roland.fran...@gmail.com wrote: Have you considered that he wanted to report a perspective other than what Israel would manage for the reporters it took? Roland, Yes, that consideration itself is the problem for me. I would not trust a journalist who writes from the perspective of what only one side in a conflict manages for him. His perspective is by definition one-sided propaganda. I would also have to critically evaluate the propaganda from the other side. That applies to both Israel and Hamas. As far as being drunk with power, you would beat me any day. I have read enough of the garbage you write about India, to know what your perspective is towards the disempowered and the the underprivileged. BTW, brace yourself for the tongue-lashing you will receive from Mario. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Journalism and two independent sources for any factual information Was: Re: Stirring the communal cauldron
Frederick --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Frederick FN Noronha f...@goa-india.org wrote: Santosh's contention that he got this two independent sources logic from sources too many to remember in the American news media isn't very convincing to me. Frederick, It looks like you do not want to take me at my word, just like I don't want to take a Christian or a Hindu campaigner at his/her word when he/she provides toll numbers pertaining to Hindu-Christian riots. Are you suggesting that Dayal's facts are untrue, or attempting to discredit Dayal and use the quote to shift attention from the point that my article seeks to make? As a critical reader I don't know whether to believe those numbers or not in the absence of confirmation from a neutral source. However, I would love to know whether you would believe these numbers if they were produced by a Hindu campaigner. If so, can you please tell me the name of one such campaigner as an example? What I would like to know is I would be interested in knowing if you have any other set of figures for the fallout from the recent communal violence in Orissa, Karnataka and some other pockets. I am trying to find out what neutral sources have reported on this issue. I will let you know as soon as I have that information. From the African and Philippines sites you quote, I am still to understand where you got the idea that my writing is a transgression of an ethical obligation to make sure that they have two independent sources before they report something as fact. From the African source here is the relevant quote: Amid diversity, journalist organisations around the world have sought to codify professional ethics. Nearly every code of ethics agrees on at least three fundamental factors in the practice of journalism: impartiality, accuracy and fairness.. Accuracy: Every journalists code stresses the need for accuracy Many journalistic organisations insist on the two source rule that means that every fact must be confirmed by two independent sources before it can be taken as reliable. http://www.rap21.org/article18465.html From the Phillipines source here is the relevant quote: Recognizing the fallibility, if not the occasional deceit of sources, individual reporters and various news organizations develop standards for testing the truthfulness of a story. Are two or more independent sources providing the same information? http://www.concernedjournalists.org/media-and-conflict-philippines#reporting I would like to ask Santosh (a) whether he recognises a difference between news-reports, feature article (such as a cover story for a monthly magazine) or news features, and other genres of journalism and (b) whether he accepts that there can be some difference between a fact not otherwise attributed to a single speaker and a statement clearly attributed to an identified person? I believe that if you want a critical reader to trust some information reported in a news report, feature article, news feature or other genre of journalism, as factually accurate, it is your obligation to see to it that it is confirmed by at least two independent sources, preferably neutral ones. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Unqualified apology...
--- On Wed, 1/7/09, Hartman de Souza hartman.deso...@gmail.com wrote: I would like him to consider that I may have been somewhat over inflamed by that reference to John, and in the process, before checking the context of the earlier postings, mistakenly assuming he came from the far right. This is also a good time to consider that criticism of journalists and activists who consider themselves to be secular, and to be fighting in the interest of the poor or the minorities need not come from bigots or from the far right. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Goanet] Stirring the communal cauldron
--- On Wed, 1/7/09, Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I thought you said that John Dayal had a rock solid reputation for integrity. Now you have proved the opposite, that he did, in fact, have an anti-Israeli agenda. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Not very professional for a news reporter to accept favors from one side in a conflict he is covering. Imagine what pro-Palestinian propaganda he must have filed as part of his news reports after fraternizing with the jihadis. Mario may have a very pertinent point here. Why did this journalist not hitch a ride in an Israeli tank? How can one trust a journalist who only covers one side of a major conflict, as an impartial and unbiased source of information? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Stirring the communal cauldron
--- On Wed, 1/7/09, Frederick FN Noronha f...@goa-india.org wrote: I expect more from individuals like Dr Santosh Helecar, whose recent priorities seem to have included jumping to the rescue of the VHPA Inc-linked Sonal Shah, to seek to discredit John Dayal and Vijay Prashad, to question activists and campaigners, to proffer lengthy arguments that deny the possibility of a polarisation along communal lines specially in Goa, et al... Frederick is now trying to use the crutch of a shameless guilt by association to discredit me in a public forum by using the same guilt by association tactic. And this while whining about what he calls attempts to discredit John Dayal and Vijay Prashad. I guess Frederick believes he has the right to discredit private citizens in public forum but we do not have the right to criticize or question the credibility of journalists like him or activists and campaigners. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] Credibility of facts reported by religious campaigners/spokespersons
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com Mario has very nicely stated why it would be unwise to trust what is reported by a journalist who has an overt bias in favor or against one side in a communal conflict. I illustrate below how in the past the National Commission of Minorities has disputed the facts reported by the religious campaigner that Frederick used as the only source in one of his recent articles. THE ALLEGATION OF COMMUNAL VIOLENCE by Frederick's source The aicc and AICU sent a team of academicians and human rights activists including John Dayal, and Jesuit Fathers Jacob and Sebastian to Mathura to assess the situation in western UP. The aicc/AICU statement reminded authorities that though each incident of violence had its own genesis, they were knit in a pattern because of the campaign of hate and openly declared mission of the Sangh Parivar that they will oppose missionary activity in the country using force if required. In the latest incident in Haryana 3 nuns of the FMM order going to the midnight Easter mass at the Rewari Catholic Church were stalked and attacked by unknown men on a scooter on Saturday/Sunday midnight. Excerpt from a statement issued by Joseph D'Souza, Chairman, All India Christian Council and John Dayal, National Secretary for Public Affairs, All India Christian Council on April 25, 2000 For the full statement please see this link: http://indianchristians.in/news/content/view/1369/42/ REFUTATION OF THE ALLEGATION by The National Commission of Minorities The Deputy commissioner of Rewari accompanied by Fr. Philip and two nuns Sr. Ludmila D'souza and Sister Gertrude Ashram, Rewari visited the commission on 27th April, 2000 on the request of the commission to brief on the incident which took place on 22nd April, 2000 where in two out of the three nuns were injured. Sister Ludmila who was unhurt gave out the details of the accident. The Deputy commissioner was of the view that this is a case of an accident and there were no communal overtones. This was fully corroborated by Fr. Philip Parmar and the two nuns who went to the extent of stating that the motive behind the publicity with regard to the above accident is not understood as the atmosphere in Rewari has all along been very peaceful. They also mentioned that some western forces were trying to give a political colour to the incident and create a wedge among the Hindus and Christians residing in the town. We are therefore of the view that this is a case of simple accident and that no communal meaning be attributed to it. Excerpt from a report prepared by the National Commission of Minorities team consisting of Justice Mohammed Shamim, Chairman, Mr. Tarlochan Singh, Vice-Chairman, and two members, Mr. John Joseph and Lt. Gen. A. M. Sethna (Retd) sometime after April 27, 2000 For the full report please contact The National Commission of Minorities at http://ncm.nic.in/ Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Stirring the communal cauldron
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Frederick FN Noronha f...@goa-india.org wrote: Is having Jan Sanghi/RSS roots a cardinal sin:-) Pun intended! I think not! Vidyadhar Gadgil has himself been in the RSS for a year or two, if I recall rightly what he mentioned. For a (usually) upper caste Maharashtrian boy (and now, in many more parts of India) being in the RSS is simply like membership of a boys club, the Boy Scouts of the post-Empire just after the sun set on it, Mocidade Portuguesa in Salazar's Goa, or the Young Pioneers of the former Eastern Bloc countries. Why is Vidhyadhar Gadgil not guilty by association with RSS? On another front, when Frederick was discrediting someone else, using garbage, whom he referred to as a strange person for some reason, he called it rightful criticism of a public figure or some such thing. Now when people are merely unwilling to believe the facts reported by journalists and activists because of their overtly stated biases, he is whining that these poor upright folk like John Dayal and Vijay Prashad are being unfairly discredited on Goanet. What a spectacular display of talking from both sides of his mouth, and both ends of his body! This is pure self-serving political posturing based on convenience and the wind, not secularism or concern for the minorities of any kind. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Stirring the communal cauldron
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org I had stated in this thread what in my opinion would be the right thing to do if anybody becomes a victim of a violent attack. I had suggested that he/she should file a criminal complaint and seek law enforcement action. I had also suggested that he/she should not politicize or communalize the crime against him/her, and not call a press conference if he/she wants his/her privacy, dignity and self-respect to remain unharmed. Marshall who has no clue about my background disagreed with me, and accused me of being out of touch with poor people and victims of crime in India, and that in India what I said above is not what a crime victim should do. Marshall also appears to believe that information regarding communal violence when presented by a single religious and political campaigner or a spokesperson for a religious or political organization representing one of the sides in the conflict, is to be taken to be factually accurate, and not biased and communally slanted in any way. Samir says he agrees with Marshall on all of these issues 100%. However, neither of them has explicitly stated what steps should be taken by a victim of a violent crime, and whether they would like the victim to divulge facts about the crime against him/her to a religious and political campaigner or spokesperson of a religious and political organization belonging to his/her own religion and political party. I would therefore like to ask them the following questions: 1. What steps should a victim of a violent crime committed in India take? 2. What should a Christian or Muslim victim do if the criminal happens to be Hindu? 3. What should a Hindu or Muslim victim do if the criminal happens to be Christian? 4. What should a Hindu or Christian victim do if the criminal happens to be Muslim? 5. What should the victim do if the criminal happens to belong another religion or creed? 6. Which Hindu religious and political campaigner or spokesperson for a Hindu religious and political organization would you trust to give you accurate facts about communal violence involving Hindus and Christians or Hindus and Muslims? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Goanet] Stirring the communal cauldron
--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Hartman de Souza hartman.deso...@gmail.com wrote: The greatness of this country is the fact that in spite of its many syncretic traditions and practices, we can allow a bigot like Heble have his say, and indeed echo Voltaire when he wrote I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it. I guess it does not take much for someone to be called a bigot on Goanet. All it takes is for an author of a post with a strange name to have a different opinion from that of another Goanetter with not so strange a name. And there is great irony in this. Please see the dictionary meaning of the word bigot below: bigot - a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Stirring the communal cauldron
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Hear ye all men and women!!! Next time any hindutvawadi goon attacks you or tries to burn your home or property or attempts to rape a member of your family, please remember to call for at least two independent witnesses, preferably not belonging to your religion. Otherwise if the media publicizes your misfortune, your word and that of the journalist will count for nothing, as per some of our wisemen (of Gotham) on Goanet. I humbly request Marshall to kindly not resort to name-calling. I think Marshall does not understand why journalists have an ethical obligation to make sure that they have two independent sources before they report something as fact. It is to protect people's rights, including a victim's right to privacy. It is also to guard against the spread of rumors and false allegations, and to prevent incitement of communal/sectarian feelings and violent action. The sarcasm in the above post from Marshall misleads people as to what they should do in the event that they become victims of a crime. I think it is best for any person who is attacked by a Hindu, Christian, Muslim or any other kind of criminal to take the following steps: 1. Call for help, and seek medical help. 2. Call the police, and lodge a detailed criminal complaint. 3. Cooperative fully with criminal investigators and any independent judicial inquiry. 4. Don't politicize or communalize the crime against you because your privacy will be lost, and politicians and activists will misuse you for their own selfish purposes by distorting everything you say in the print media and the internet. 5. Don't call a press conference if you want to maintain your privacy and your dignity and self-respect. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Forum manners
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Gilbert Lawrence gilbert2...@yahoo.com wrote: From what you, Fred and Melvyn wrote, much of what GX posts appear to be is guided by nothing more than petty vengeance, retribution and attention-starved opportunism. Hi Gilbert, Are you sure these adjectives are not a better description of the above post and the state of mind of the supurlo Goencar himself? Otherwise, why would anybody want to denigrate GX on Goanet, particularly since Melvyn was mainly referring to posts on Goanet. He joined GX on December 30, 2008, just one day before his post on manners appeared on Goanet. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Stirring the communal cauldron
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Roland Francis roland.fran...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps your advice is better suited to Texas. Even then, I am doubtful, things in the redneck state being what they are. Hi Roland, I hope your long distance assessment of India is not anything like your doubts about Texas. In either case, I would prefer to trust the opinion of a journalist who actually lives in India, and practices his profession in an ethical and impartial manner to the best of his abilities e.g. Valmiki Faleiro. But I tend to agree with you regarding the politicization of judicial inquiries such as the inquiry pertaining to Narendra Modi. That is why nobody should trust campaigners and spokespersons for religious organizations and political activists. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Stirring the communal cauldron
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Frederick FN Noronha f...@goa-india.org wrote: Could Santosh tell us where he derrived this understanding from? From sources too many to remember in the American news media. But here are two that I found just now, elsewhere: 1. An article entitled The three foundations of journalism at - http://www.rap21.org/article18465.html Here is the pertinent quote under the subheading Accuracy: Accuracy: Every journalists code stresses the need for accuracy. There are no prizes for being fast and wrong. Writing for a journalist is the skill of presenting information clearly, concisely and effectively. It is based on hard facts, so the reporter must know how and where to find reliable information. A critical challenge is how to reconcile conflicting accounts of the same event. Many journalistic organisations insist on the two source rule that means that every fact must be confirmed by two independent sources before it can be taken as reliable. 2. An article entitled Media and Conflict in the Philippines from the Committee of Concerned Journalists at - http://www.concernedjournalists.org/media-and-conflict-philippines Here is the pertinent quote under the subheading Dispassionate Reporting: Recognizing the fallibility, if not the occasional deceit of sources, individual reporters and various news organizations develop standards for testing the truthfulness of a story. Are two or more independent sources providing the same information? Did the journalist see and hear the evidence himself or herself or get it secondhand? What are the credibility, reputation and motivation of the source? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Stirring the communal cauldron
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org --- On Sun, 1/4/09, Miguel Braganza miguelbraga...@yahoo.co.in wrote: Do I need to tell you that your question below is mere rhetoric? Dear Miguel, No. You have told me more than I needed to know. Thanks. Mark Twain also wrote that journalism is the one solitary respectable profession which honors theft and admires the thief. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] Stirring the communal cauldron
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org --- On Fri, 1/2/09, Goanet Reader goanetrea...@gmail.com wrote: THE TOLL According to editor turned Christian campaigner John Dayal, the anti-Christian violence between August 24-Ocober 2, 2008 had the following toll: I wonder if Frederick has checked the accuracy of the toll numbers he has listed here with a Muslim, a Buddhist or some other non-Christian campaigner. As a journalist, I understand it is his responsibility to have at least two independent sources for any factual information he provides his readers. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Skin-deep understanding of secularism
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Mervyn Lobo mervynal...@yahoo.ca wrote: Santosh, What on earth is a Marxist intellectual? I did a goggle of the term and it seems like only two people have used it before. Hi Mervyn, When I did a Google search for Marxist intellectual I got 14,100 hits. Please see: http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=%22Marxist+intellectual%22btnG=Search Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] .... has never been communal / Confidential report in the file
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org --- On Thu, 1/1/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: But I can say for sure that he has put up a spirited defence of the sangh parivar. It is all documented in the archives. A critical reader would question why Marshall continues to demonize a person who does not fall for the recycled material that he circulates in this forum. Why is Marshall not able to engage in an honest debate on the merits of the facts that he tells people he is presenting? Why does he have to lean on the crutch of terms such as Sangh Parivar with negative connotations to the readership of this forum? It is because he has nothing to show for himself that a critical reader would actually believe. If you have been following my posts, you would not fail to observe that I am strongly against any act of hate or violence from whichever source - whether christian, hindu, muslim, atheist, etc. I have been following Marshall's posts since the time he gratuitously attacked me for being skeptical of his partisan material. If you simply count the number of copy and paste jobs that he has performed in this forum since then on behalf of Christians, Hindus and Muslims who were victims of violence, you will realize that the above assertion is utterly bogus. Not only that, he has actually attacked Hindus and Muslims who like me treat their religion merely as a lifestyle, by equating them with Advani and Jinah. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] Skin-deep understanding of secularism
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org SKIN-DEEP UNDERSTANDING OF SECULARISM By Santosh A. Helekar Secularism as enshrined in the Indian constitution represents two principles: a) The idea that the state has no religion, and therefore the two must not interfere in each other's affairs, and b) Tolerance towards, and equality of, all religions and creeds. The recent column by Frederick Noronha entitled “Skin-deep Secularism” does not appear to have anything to do with secularism as understood above. Here is why. It claims to show that secular campaigners in Goa are biased along religious and casteist lines. But to do that correctly the author would have had to explain what the secular position on each of the issues he cites was, and then demonstrate how the secular Goans who participated in the debates on those issues deviated from that position. Having debated three of the issues he has used as examples, I can see that he has not even come close to doing so. Indeed, the article itself seems to suffer from a debilitating bias. It rests on the tacit presumption that the author, who himself was a participant in the debates, has a privileged secular vantage point, from where he can judge the secular worthiness of the lesser souls battling it out under him in Goan cyberspace. What is worse is that he does not reveal his own secular cards to the unsuspecting readers for independent evaluation. Perhaps, from his lofty skybox in the coliseum of common public discourse the author is unable to see the deeper non-secular issues that were being debated in the three examples that he cites, with which I am intimately familiar on account of my being in the arena down below. His treatment of the case that any secular issue was a point of contention in these examples is demonstrably superficial. It merely amounts to the coincidental similarity or dissimilarity of the religious identity of a few of the most vocal debaters, and that of the people that occupied the center stage in these examples. In short, if secularism here is skin-deep it is because Noronha made it so from whole cloth, and gave this issue superficial treatment from the journalistic standpoint. To see why this is so, I would like to focus on the Sonal Shah case first, to which I have devoted most time debating. Sonal Shah, a member of the Obama transition team was accused by a Marxist intellectual named Vijay Prashad on political grounds, which included claims that she was linked with the worst symbols of fraud and criminality in capitalism, and of violent intolerance in Hindu religious fundamentalism - the Enron debacle and the 2002 carnage against Muslims following the Godhra incident, respectively. Links such as these when made against another intellectual, Rashid Khalidi, one of Obama's Chicago acquaintances, Prashad himself had railed against as a smear in an article entitled Smearing Rashid Khalidi (http://www.counterpunch.org/prashad10302008.html). Prashad's claims were largely ignored in the American media, but were spread far and wide on the internet and Indian media, essentially wholesale without any independent fact-checking, and with speculative and tantalizing titles such as Will Obama's top aide give Modi visa power? in the Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Will_Sonal_Shah_give_Narendra_Modi_visa_powe\ r/rssarticleshow/3690558.cms). Many of us, including some respected journalists and eminent Indian personalities felt that this was a disingenuous and unfair smear campaign that achieved no higher purpose, not the least a secular one. It was taking for cheap political purposes the low road of tarnishing the good name of a highly accomplished Indian American who had already served with distinction and high level national security clearance in the highest echelons of the U. S. government. The fact that Noronha has no case here, not even a superficial one that he tried to present, is evident from the fact that neither Shah's accusers nor their detractors fell into two clear factions, neatly divided based on their nominal religious affiliations. Her principal accusers had Hindu names. Her defenders were of several different religious persuasions going simply by their appellations. In Goan cyberforums with predominantly Catholic memberships we saw that those debating on behalf of her accusers included 5 with Catholic names and 2 with Hindu
[Goanet] Secularism in the pleural cavity
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org Gilbert wrote to Kevin on Goanet: As usual you and others responding to my post attack the messenger. You did not write any original thoughts. So, as a suggestion, you (and others) could respond to: President Pandurang is very happy that Gilbert has appointed himself the messenger on Goanet. The President had great difficulty understanding Gilbert’s latest post on god because this time he said nothing about diet and food, but used big words such as pleural secularism and quasi-ethical wonkery, and shared extremely original thoughts that you will not find in any book or dictionary. Nonetheless, here is how the President finally understood what Gilbert meant to say. The rest of your characterization (and those of others) is a facile little bit of quasi-ethical wonkery.:=)) If you do not believe in a soul and life-after-death, please have the courage of your conviction to say so succinctly. Thus, you can save us from the kathakali dance. No dictionary gives the meaning of quasi-ethical wonkery. So the President asked the very ethical Kazi from Indira Nagar what it means. Kazi Quasim said, Humko kya maalum ye wonkar-bonkar kya hai. Koyi humko ye bola to bolo usko hum uske wonkar khont marenge. Phir vo kathakali sayi tara karega. Pleural secularism is the modern lingo for the age-old gnosticism where everyone has THEIR OWN divine soul and personal knowledge of god. Pleural secularism (and other such labels) is nothing more than 'Old wine (gnosticism) in a new bottle'. Because Gilbert used a big medical term, the President had to consult a Portuguesa anatomie profsor to find out where in the pleural cavity of the thorax is this secularism. Many years ago when the President had gone to GMC to complain about a problem with his constitution, they put a tube in his side. They said the tube was because he had a pleural effusion. The water that came out of the tube was like old wine, and they put it in a new bottle every 6 hours. May be, Gilbert is talking about something like this, and not the secular pluralism in the constitution of India. If so, the President wants to know from Gilbert what other such labels besides pleural secularism he should put on those new bottles. About gnosticism, on Gilbert’s advice we have already banned the teaching of knowledge (gnana) in our Chimbel schools of thought. Nobody there now has their own divine soul and personal knowledge of god. We do not add god to any food served to the children, in any case. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] Khajim-ethical wonkary
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org Gilbert wrote: The rest of your characterization (and those of others) is a facile little bit of quasi-ethical wonkery.:=)) If you do not believe in a soul and life-after-death, please have the courage of your conviction to say so succinctly. Thus, you can save us from the kathakali dance. Because Kazi Quasim was of no help President Pandurang asked the Portuguesa dotor and Vhodlo Ghadi to consult the big cirurgiaos in Lisboa about quasi-ethical wonkery. Now we have the answer by telegram. It is also a medical condition like pleural cyclerism. In Chimbel it is called khajim-ethical wonkary. A person suffers from it when he eats too much khajem or kadyobodeyo at the fest or zatra. They are made of god. As Gilbert told us, too much god is bad for you. The main symptom is wonkary or vomiting. The President now understands Gilbert completely. Those who have given up god like Kevin may have suffered from khajim-ethical wonkary after seeing too much god on Goanet. Happy New Year! Cheers, Santosh P.S. BTW, the President now knows that pleural cyclerism is caused by riding cycle daablexitt everyday. Forsu suffered from it because he was riding ladies cycle with girls in the front.
Re: [Goanet] Other people's beliefs
--- On Tue, 12/30/08, Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Santosh is absolutely right to be so sad at observing intolerance though I hope he does not mean that challenging those with opposing views represents intolerance, especially when those views are presented in a passive-aggressive attack as in the original God sucks post, with no supporting commentary or rational point being made, until the inevitable outr..., ...er, negative feedback, by others. Mario, I agree with what you have said. Thanks for keeping people honest. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] .... has never been communal / Confidential report in the file
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org --- On Tue, 12/30/08, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: This has reference to the posting of Santosh Helekar under the subject '.has never been communal' and Dr Barad's doctored report on the same subject under the heading ' Confidential report in the file' If none of what I have pointed out before convinces you, the above malicious linking of my name by Marshall with a doctored report posted by someone else should make it clear to most people what we are dealing with here. We are not dealing with a genuine effort to inform people or discuss issues in an honest manner. Instead, we are seeing a full fledged political campaign to malign and destroy people who are not gullible enough to buy his one-sided partisan propaganda. With this (and other things I have presented earlier) in mind, I would urge people to independently check any reported facts that Marshall or any other politically active person posts in this forum. Please do not rely on anything that they post, certainly not on anything that is posted by a person who demonizes his detractors and spreads false innuendo and rumors about them. Please don't rely on anything that is alleged or denied by any politician or activist whether he/she is from the BJP and its allies, the Congress and its allies or any of the Communist and other parties. Whether somebody is involved in any murder would be investigated by the concerned authorities, and ultimately, it has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. Regarding the swami's murder the crime branch of the police department in Orissa appears to be closing in on a prominent politician and MP named Radhakant Nayak. According to the following report entitled Congress MP RK Nayak is on run as CB starts chasing in a local news outlet, the crime branch has summed its case by stating: Nayak was mastermind of the whole event and played a key in the murder case. Please see http://www.odishatoday.com/orissa/Congress_MP_RK_Nayak_is_on_run_as_CB_starts_chasing_271208-4858174966.html We will soon find out if he is involved in the murder in any way or not. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] God, food and Gilbert
President Pandurang always likes Gilbert's posts. His latest post has a lot of
uncommon wisdom - wisdom that does not make sense to the common man and woman.
But like Gilbert President Pandurang is an uncommon man. So he agrees with
Gilbert all the time. Here are the President's comments on Gilbert's latest
thoughts.
--- On Sun, 12/28/08, Gilbert Lawrence gilbert2...@yahoo.com wrote:
The concept of God will harm humanity, if humans use / abuse the
concept for their detriment. To simplify the concept, even
(good) food can be bad if not used / eaten at the right
time, right place and in the right proportions. As the
above title itself, and that is reflected today, human
social values 'suck', and we blame God or our concepts of god for them (our
social values).
Gilbert is right. God means jaggery. Too much jaggery is bad for your health.
You might become fat or diabetic. He is right about sucking god too. When I was
little I used to suck on a godacho with pez.
Problems that are seen today were not seen / heard a century ago e.g. organ
transplant, euthanasia, cloning, etc.
I agree. Organ transplant is a big problem. Because of organ transplants many
people are not going to heaven very soon these days. Hundred years ago they
were reaching there immediately.
I would submit that much of today's social problems - divorce, half of all
child-births born out of wedlock, drug dependency, etc, are a result of LACK
OF religion and moral values.
Yes, I don't understand why a wife divorces her husband who beats her after
drinking copachem. Copachem is good for your and your wife's health. I don't
know why people do not depend on it today like 100 years ago.
Gnosticism (Greek - knowledge or in sanskrit -
gnana) refers to a diverse, syncretistic religious movement
consisting of various belief systems generally united in the
teaching that humans are divine souls trapped in a material
world created by an imperfect god, ...
Exactly. Knowledge is very bad for everybody. Hundred years ago nobody had this
much knowledge as we have today, and we were very happy. Knowledge has
destroyed our happiness. I wish people become ignorant again like 100 years ago.
It depends how one uses the concept of God. Just like one
can use / abuse food. In the example of food, both
extremes - the lack of it with starvation due to poverty,
anorexia (starvation in the midst of plenty); and excess
consumption (bulimia) are all bad results of a good / needed
requirement. Similarly, science is good! But science can
/ has been abused / contaminated by personal (individual) or
systemic ('school of thought') failings and abuses.
We make many things out of god in Chimbel like paatollyo, nevreo, godachi
bhaakri, dodol, etc. If you eat too much of them you are abusing god, which is
bad. If you don't eat god, there is saakor, but that is bad also. If you don't
eat anything then you are like the atheist.
Now, you can contaminate god just like science. It depends on where you buy it.
Some shopkeepers sell god contaminated with scientific chemicals. That is why
science is bad. In Chimbel we have banned teaching of science because of
failings (of our students) in our schools of thought. Many children were
failing in science and abusing our teachers. Next year we are also going to ban
teaching gnana. We don't want our students to be gnostic.
Perhaps you missed my article that was posted on Goanet on The Evolution of
Religion. A re-read of that post (posted below) may help and answer some
questions and issues.
Gilbert's post on Evolution of Religion requires special attention and
comments. It is an answer to most questions about god, food and digestion. I
don't know why so many people on Goanet like Sandeep missed such an important
post.
Cheers,
Santosh
for President Pandurang Fernandes
Re: [Goanet] Deflections To The Right
A critical reader would be able to tell why the post appended below and the initial post in this thread were meant to project a one-sided biased view against Hindu NRIs and their organizations in the U.S. Here are the reasons: 1. The author of the post gratuitously initiated this thread with the subject Deflections To The Right, and yet provided a link and excerpt to an article talking only about deflections of Hindus and Hindu organizations to the right. 2. He dredged up an article from 2002, and posted it here, without bothering to find out if any of the accusations in it were investigated, and found to be valid or false over the subsequent 6 years. 3. He did not tell Goanetters that the British Charity Commission has investigated these allegations against two Hindu charities in 2005, and have found them to be baseless and unfounded. It has completely exonerated the charities. 4. Accusations of spreading bigotry and divisiveness have been made against Christian and Muslim charitable organizations as well, and yet the author conveniently did not post any of the articles highlighting them in this forum under the general topic Deflections To The Right. So he wants Goanetters to believe that it is only Hindus who are deflecting to the right. 5. He wants readers to believe that Hindu NRIs in the U.S. can be easily taken for a ride. They are not smart enough to figure out if their money is being used for legitimate and peaceful purposes or not. Cheers, Santosh P.S. BTW, The India Development and Relief Fund, against which these unsubstantiated allegations were made is one of the largest international Indian charities, and has as its partner such respected and important U.S. charity as United Way. Please see http://www.idrf.org/ for information on it. --- On Sun, 12/28/08, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: 1. It is interesting how the poster draws conclusions that Hindu NRI's are being shown in bad light when the article, in fact, states just the opposite. That Hindu NRI's are being taken for a ride by certain organisations by being led to believe that they are contributing to temples and charity whereas these funds are channelled towards hate and violence.
Re: [Goanet] Confidential report in the file
--- On Sat, 12/27/08, Dr. U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com wrote: To read more on this topic click the link provided below: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/net-closes-in-on-cong-mp-for-orissa-swamis-murder/403507/ The article copied and posted below from the above link appears to have been deliberately altered by the above poster. He has tampered with its text by inserting communally-tinged sensational words such as Fanatic and Christian Missionary Nayak, which were not present in the original text. This type of intentional corruption of a news report for some political or communal purpose cannot be tolerated in a public forum such as this one. I would like to thank a contributor to the GX forum for pointing this mischief out to us. Cheers, Santosh --- On Sat, 12/27/08, Dr. U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com wrote: Bhubaneswar : The BJD-BJP government in Orissa is closing in on Fanatic Christian Congress Rajya Sabha member and former civil servant Radhakanta Nayak for his role in the conspiracy to kill Lakshmanananda Saraswati. .. The Criminal Investigation Department (CID) of Orissa police is said to be preparing a case against Nayak and his Fanatic Christian missionary supporters. the assurances from the government that Christian missionary Nayak would be arrested. It was one of our demands and we have been given to understand that the process is on, a senior BJP leader said.
Re: [Goanet] GX (was: God....)
--- On Sat, 12/27/08, Miguel Braganza miguelbraga...@yahoo.co.in wrote: If no list entertains it ad nauseam, subscribe to the unmoderated Goenchim Xapotam. Save Goanet from becoming another GX, since the Moderators obviously lack the will do prevent this. I will try as long as I am subscribed. Both Sandeep and Miguel are subscribed to GX. They are welcome to carry on this debate there. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Other people's beliefs (Was: God Sucks)
--- On Sun, 12/28/08, Gilbert Lawrence gilbert2...@yahoo.com wrote: Many Christians today feel: To get to heaven, they do not need the saints. A few are so smart, they do not need Christ. There are the real smart ones who do not need God to get to heaven after death. And then, there are some who do not believe in a soul and a life after death. It is sad to see people making such intolerant sarcastic remarks against people who hold beliefs other than themselves. It looks like these people have not learned the moral value of secular pluralism after all these years. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Deflections To The Right
It looks like attempts are being made in this forum to show Hindu NRIs in bad light by picking and choosing articles and excerpts from the internet, and creating the impression that facts are being reported when no independent responsible organizations have confirmed any of the hyperbolic charges. I hope people do not fall for such one-sided propaganda. Cheers, Santosh --- On Sat, 12/27/08, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Excerpts: Rekhi, global chairman of The IndUS Entrepreneurs, an organisation of South Asian businesspeople, claimed that money collected by Indian Hindus in America and sent to religious groups in India was being channelled to target minorities. Many overseas Indian Hindus—including some in this country—finance religious groups in India in the belief that the funds will be used to build temples, and educate and feed the poor of their faith. Many would be appalled to know that some recipients of their money are out to destroy minorities (Christians as well as Muslims) and their places of worship, wrote Rekhi in the article, co-authored with Henry S. Rowen, a professor emeritus at Stanford University and senior fellow of the Hoover Institution
Re: [Goanet] .... has never been communal
--- On Sat, 12/27/08, Miguel Braganza miguelbraga...@yahoo.co.in wrote: I am with you on this one. Dr. Samir Kelekar seems to have been wrongly certified secular by Dr. Selma Carvalho, a communal practitioner herself. The Khandhamal-Orissa issue is more about the fight for the ST tag by a SC community that has converted to Christianity and lost reservations[for education, jobs, etc], than about religion per se. In my opinion neither Samir nor Selma are communal. What we are seeing is a simple over-reaction to issues that are in some cases wrongly portrayed through a unidimensional communal narrative in this forum, by means of a torrent of one-sided political propaganda. The Kandhamal violent clashes between Pannas and Khands with poaching by Maoists and Hindu extremists is a case in point. However, I do notice an unhealthy trend here. In the past, we had to deal with propaganda from the well-recognized fringes on the Hindu and Christian right, and the atheist, Marxist and New Age left. But the new trend appears to be radicalization of the secular moderates towards the fringes on either side. I suspect it would lead to much greater polarization. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] God sucks
--- In goenchimxapo...@yahoogroups.com, Sandeep Heble sandeephe...@... wrote: So what's the problem in that? Those who propagate religious ideologies constantly hurt the scientific and rational sentiments of the atheists and the non-believers. Will the preachers stop propagating their beliefs on a Science Day? If they have the freedom of speech and free expression to propagate their bizarre, illogical, irrational and even evil ideas, why can't the atheists freely air their own thoughts? Samir has not done anything wrong and there is no need for him to go on the defensive. One of the directive principles of the Indian Constitution is to spread scientific temper and rational thoughts in the society. He is doing just that. Sandeep, It is best to leave science out of this argument. Science does not care what people believe or do not believe as a matter of faith. In my opinion Samir's flame bait had nothing to do with spreading scientific temper. People of all beliefs need to be heard, but not by creating false dichotomies. Science has absolutely nothing to do with theism or atheism. Its scope is limited to providing a natural understanding of the world around us. People like Steven Weinberg are doing a great disservice to science in this regard, by inadvertently encouraging people to mix religion with science. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Samir has never been communal
--- On Thu, 12/25/08, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: On this Christmas day I have to defend Samir. To my memory he has never been communal. He was the only Hindu to immediately condemn the Orissa violence and to my memory has never taken a communal position in political issues. I know that Samir is not a communal-minded guy because I know him for more than three decades. But this business of deciding who is communal or not based on their condemnation of this violence or that, or taking what someone perceives as a communal position in political issues, is a rather frivolous and superficial way of forming serious opinions about other people. It depends on whether or not the person forming the opinion himself/herself has a communal bias. Moreover, it assumes that he/she has a clear understanding of the issues in question that is comprehensive enough to know that disagreements with him/her on them could only be for communal reasons. Things are never this simple in reality. As I have said before, the world is never so black and white. That is why relying on such superficial perceptions in a public forum is unfair and unhealthy. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Samir has never been communal
--- On Thu, 12/25/08, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: Next time I form an opinion in life I'll be sure to conduct a ten-year objective study, followed by a five page desertion. Dear Selma, By over forty years of subjective study I have learned that it is better to assume people are innocent and good unless they have actually committed some offense. And even those who have committed a non-violent offense cannot be condemned for life in a public forum. For example, it would be extremely unfair and foolish for me to assume that those who do not publicly condemn every or any instance of communal violence in this forum do this act of omission because they are communal or because they condone such violence. Serious public accusations cannot be made as knee-jerk reactions to superficial perceptions. They require serious thought. Merry Christmas to you and everybody else. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] The Right to Convert
--- On Wed, 12/24/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: Missionaries came to India and Goa and changed the face by providing Gospel values. Did people who lived in India and Goa before the missionaries came not have a decent face? Did they not have good values? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Why God sucks --- a good discussion
--- On Wed, 12/24/08, Samir Kelekar samir_kele...@yahoo.com wrote: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=3176 Check the above url. There is a good discussion on both pro and cons of why God sucks. I still don't understand the negative feeling towards someone else's icon. The reasons they give are quite immature and superficial. Everybody is free to state his/her beliefs and positions, but why be emotional about other people's harmless beliefs? Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Is religion...
It is the issue that dominates most people's lives. It is the issue around which most arguments and conflicts are going on in the world today. Without it there would not be any political propaganda in this forum. Many forums such as Secular Goa forum and religious forums would have to be closed down. Cheers, Santosh --- On Mon, 12/22/08, Frederick FN Noronha f...@goa-india.org wrote: ... the only thing there is to discuss on Goanet? After 13+ years here, it seems as if we're having all our bandwidth clogged up with just one issue. Sad! FN
Re: [Goanet] Foreign Funded charity
--- On Sun, 12/21/08, Sandeep Heble sandeephe...@gmail.com wrote: I am not per se against an Indian converting from one faith to another. If someone is not treated well in his own religion or ceases to believe in his own religion's philosophies, ideals and beliefs, that person should well be entitled to convert, but the conversion must be voluntary, i.e. without the use of unethical methods like force, fraud or material inducements. The use of the word material is noted, but I think inducements should be allowed. In my opinion from a legal standpoint judging whether an inducement is used in a conversion activity or not is a tough thing. When you tell somebody that this is the only way you can be saved or that this is the shortest route to heaven, you are by definition using a psychological inducement. Even tougher is to judge whether the inducement used is fraudulent because the whole system is based on belief. A religious belief by its very nature does not have to be supported by scientific evidence. So if you tell somebody that they will be cured from cancer if they pray for this saint to intercede on their behalf, as soon as they convert, and you sincerely believe what you are telling them, then are you committing a fraud? I have a suspicion that our legal system says no. Otherwise, it would slide down a slippery slope towards all kinds of legal precipices related to religious and ethical matters. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] The Right to convert
I was hoping that the Supreme court would rule that conversion was legal in all circumstances except when physical or psychological coercion or threat was used. But it seems it has essentially banned all conversion activity now. I fear that this would lead to more strife in areas where conversions and re-conversions were going on because there is a huge enforcement problem for this kind of a law. Moreover, one of the principal motivations for any religious charity to do good in the toughest environments and against great odds has been removed. What a pity! Cheers, Santosh --- On Sat, 12/20/08, Sandeep Heble sandeephe...@gmail.com wrote: Follow the news report below to know the legal position of this in India. Nobody has right to convert: SC NEW DELHI: There is no such thing as a fundamental right to convert any person to one's own religion and the government can impose certain restrictions keeping in view public order, the Supreme Court has ruled.
Re: [Goanet] The Right to convert
--- On Sun, 12/21/08, J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com wrote: The way the opponents of the Orissa Act argued the case, I submit, would have given the Christians special privileges which would would violate the principle of equality. Dear Josebab, Thanks for this clarification. Phew! I agree that there is no fundamental right to convert. As you know, on this issue I am more concerned about elimination of the motivation to dispense empathy rather than enlightenment. Cheers, Santosh --- On Sun, 12/21/08, J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com wrote: It is worth noting that Courts rule on the 'issues' before them. All the SC has stated, in this case, is that there is NO fundamental right to convert. I doubt such a fundamental right exists in any country. This does not make conversions illegal.
Re: [Goanet] Arun Shourie on Islamic terrorism and failed Pakistani state
Mario, Thanks for those links. I will read them carefully, and see if they answer my questions about facts in this case. But regarding your anecdote, we all have them. I have a couple myself. One Pakistani person refused to work with me professionally because I was Indian. This person believes that India is responsible for all their problems, including terrorism. On the flip side, I know some Indians who canceled attendance to a party after they found out that some Pakistanis were also invited, and these are all highly educated non-Hindutva folk. The cause for this kind of prejudice is more likely to be uncritical reliance on ideologically biased media in both countries, and careless reporting. None of these educated characters in our stories are likely to have attended any madrassas or ekal vidyalayas. As I am sure you understand, these kinds of anecdotes mean very little when drawing serious conclusions about the causes of terrorism. I will try to examine the evidence about what is actually taught to the children in Pakistan, and how many of them are known to have become terrorists. My own understanding, so far, based on my limited reading about terrorism psychology, and partly echoed by Selma, is that almost all of the terrorist recruits are common criminals, of whom there are plenty in every society. It is much easier to radicalize criminals, and graduate them to doing greater crimes, than normal people with intact innate moral sense. But I will let you know what I find. Cheers, Santosh --- On Thu, 12/18/08, Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Here are some sources: http://www.scribd.com/doc/8572488/Pakistan-Jihad http://articles.latimes.com/2005/aug/18/world/fg-schools18 http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\07\25\story_25-7-2006_pg7_1 http://www.outlookindia.com/fullprint.asp?choice=2fodname=20051010fname=Pakistan+%28F%29sid=1 I also have a personal anecdote that I could not understand at the time, but do now. A Pakistani physician friend took severe umbrage during a social function at my suggestion that the partition of the Indian sub-continent was one of the worst decisions in world history. My reasoning was based on the fact that Pakistan and Bangladesh, with 95% plus Muslim populations, were essentially failed states, whereas an undivided secular India would have had about a 28% Muslim population, double the current percentage, and this would have made all Indian minorities stronger. Not to mention eliminated all the angst over Kashmir and the BILLIONS spent in human lives and treasure defending themselves against each other.
Re: [Goanet] Coconut and HIV
--- On Fri, 12/19/08, Roland Francis roland.fran...@gmail.com wrote: Researches have suggested that coconut helps in reducing the viral load of HIV. No such researches have been published supporting the above assertion in the medical literature. There is only a brief message in 1999 that a study to test this hypothesis would be started in the Phillipines. There is no documentary evidence in the medical literature since then that the study was ever undertaken and completed. The rest of the medical benefits of coconut reported in this post also appear to be dubious or dangerously false. Cheers, Santosh --- On Fri, 12/19/08, Roland Francis roland.fran...@gmail.com wrote: Benefits Of Coconut ... Coconut water is believed to lessen the rashes caused by smallpox, chickenpox and measles. Coconut water is said to be good for the skin. Coconut water is used to treat intestinal worms and relieves stomach and urinary problems. It has been claimed that coconut water is beneficial for the people suffering from diabetes. Researches have suggested that coconut helps in reducing the viral load of HIV. The organic iodine content of coconut helps in preventing simple goiter (enlarged non-toxic thyroid). Benefits of Coconut Oil Apart from being good for the skin and hair of a person, coconut oil has been found to be beneficial in case of the following ailments. Stress Heart Diseases High Cholesterol Levels Too Much Weight
Re: [Goanet] Ekal Vidyalaya and Santosh's excuses
--- On Wed, 12/17/08, Samir Kelekar samir_kele...@yahoo.com wrote: You have become another Jose Colaco, playing a kathakali ! Are you also taking a law degree from Timbaktu? Santosh your mask of an unbiased, atheist guy is off and the whole Goanet now knows it!!! The above angry outburst is inexplicable and unusable from the standpoint of filing a complaint with U.S.-based authorities. I don't know how I can forward this email to them, and ensure that they will have any respect for Samir or myself. I had asked Samir or anybody else to kindly do the following: Please provide me with actual first-hand evidence from a responsible law enforcement agency in a point-wise manner here that Ekal Vidyalaya, VHP America and/or Indicorps are/were directly involved in funding any kind of illegal or criminal activity in India or anywhere else. To this Samir copied and pasted a news report in The Hindu saying that the Indian government had stopped giving grants to an organization called Friends of Tribal Society that runs ekal vidyalayas because they do such things as make kids say Jai Shri Ram and use names of Hindu gods to teach the English alphabet. Marshall copied and pasted several websites, all of which, except one were recycled material from Samir's copy and paste job. The lone exception had some new allegations and speculations. Since neither Samir nor Marshall was capable of listing in a point-wise manner all the illegal and criminal activities carried out by Ekal Vidyalaya Foundation, I did the following: 1. I submitted an inquiry with the U.S. based Better Business Bureau at http://charityreports.bbb.org/public/inquire/Default.aspx?BureauID= Here is the text of my inquiry: I would like to know if Ekal Vidyalaya Foundation is a legitimate international charity, and whether funds from it have ever been diverted for any illegal or criminal activity locally or overseas. I would also like to know if any of its funds have been used to cause religious disharmony or for political activities. There are some accusations about the latter in the Indian print and internet media. Thanks. 2. I did a thorough search for legality of Ekal Vidyalaya Foundation, VHP America and IndiCorps on Guidestar (http://www.guidestar.org/index.jsp). The search indicated that they were legal 501c3 charities, and therefore by requirement not involved in any illegal, criminal or political activity. 3. Finally, I checked to see if any of them (and Friends of Tribals Society) was listed as a terrorist organization by the U.S. State Department at http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/37191.htm on the basis of the following clause: As used in this chapter [chapter 8 of the INA], the term 'engage in terrorist activity' means in an individual capacity or as a member of an organization– 1. to commit or to incite to commit, under circumstances indicating an intention to cause death or serious bodily injury, a terrorist activity; None of them was listed. I will let you know as soon as the Better Business Bureau replies to my inquiry. Cheers, Santosh
