Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Damian Gryski]

On Friday, November 4, 2016 at 8:22:49 PM UTC+1, prade...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> All I see here is nothing is done to moderate /r/golang despite threads 
> being reported for harassment. What good is a code of conduct if it isn't 
> enforced ? and when enforced , moderators have to come here to apologize 
> for doing their jobs, like Sarah ? If you don't want me to bring /r/golang 
> here, then do something about /r/golang because what is happening there is 
> an embarrassment to the go community.
>


As a recent moderator for /r/golang, I want to apologize for not strongly 
enforcing the CoC.  I continued to view myself as only a content provider. 
My lack of action is due to not wanting to be the center of attention for 
removing posts and being targetted by trolls. I see now that at least twice 
recently my inaction has lead to harmful threads and for that I'm sorry. 
 I've reached out to the /r/rust moderators for advice on how to handle 
moderating a technical subreddit, and have gotten some good advice.

In the past, moderation on /r/golang been lenient to non-existent.

I will begin moderating /r/golang under the CoC and taking more actions on 
CoC violations.  Russ Cox and I are looking for people who have the time 
and desire to help while we make this transition.

Damian

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

['Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts]

If you believe there is an issue which is not being addressed properly,
please use the procedure at https://golang.org/conduct#reporting.

Thomas

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 12:22 PM  wrote:

> All I see here is nothing is done to moderate /r/golang despite threads
> being reported for harassment. What good is a code of conduct if it isn't
> enforced ? and when enforced , moderators have to come here to apologize
> for doing their jobs, like Sarah ? If you don't want me to bring /r/golang
> here, then do something about /r/golang because what is happening there is
> an embarrassment to the go community.
>
>
> Le vendredi 4 novembre 2016 14:21:24 UTC+1, Thomas Bushnell, BSG a écrit :
>
> This list doesn't need to be a place to copy /r/ to. Please refrain from
> public denunciations and speak privately with those you wish, and... Follow
> the code of conduct if you believe a more formal response is called for.
>
> Thomas
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016, 6:17 AM  wrote:
>
> >  then labeling someone's thread as "bullying" (a pretty serious charge
> in todays climate).
>
> Well now the target of the latest witch-hunt /u/gernest_ has responded on
> /r/golang, the previous thread that I linked I quote "broke his heart" , so
> you can't deny something is definitely wrong here :
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/5b2j38/what_is_idiomatic_go/
>
> > After the WTF moment. I calmed down and just realized what few innocent
> words can do. They broke my heart.
>
> > I'm confused, and definitely heart broken.
>
> AFAIK the original thread is still up on /r/golang , how long is the go
> community going to allow this kind of things ?
>
>
>
> Le vendredi 4 novembre 2016 06:49:07 UTC+1, andrewc...@gmail.com a écrit :
>
> I would also like to point out the extreme hypocrisy of saying Aram's
> comment is  "unnecessary and insensitive" then labeling someone's thread as
> "bullying" (a pretty serious charge in todays climate). Both of which I
> would consider worse insults than saying someone has bad English. If i was
> on the censorship panel I would almost certainly issue you a warning for
> those.
>
> On Friday, November 4, 2016 at 6:03:53 PM UTC+13, prade...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> That's not up to you to judge if some comment is "harmless" or not.
> Because you're not the person the comment has been directed at. Something
> that might seem "harmless" to you might be perceived as insulting to
> someone else. Aram's comment was unnecessary and insensitive to say the
> least, it doesn't matter if he is an important contributor to Go or not. If
> they are rules they apply to everybody equally or they don't, that's what
> rules are for. Frankly Sarah shouldn't have apologized for anything, she
> did exactly what she was supposed to do in this case. It doesn't matter how
> sizable Aram's contribution is, it doesn't preclude him from showing a
> little bit of respect.
>
> Right now /r/golang is engaged in yet another bullying campaign against
> another individual on this thread :
>
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/5ayvws/github_stars_are_no_more_a_valid_metric_for/
> 
>
> (archived here : http://archive.is/znqJg )
>
> Just because that person has written "a non idiomatic framework" .?
>
> Someone is being labelled at "a marketer with a crappy product" . Is it
> what moderators here call "a respectful environment" ? the thread is still
> up as we speak. This has happened before with Martini, then Iris , now
> utron. That's how the go community wants to grow ?
>
>
>
>
> Le jeudi 3 novembre 2016 01:38:43 UTC+1, Paul a écrit :
>
> I just discovered this thread. I used to be an avid reader of Golang-nuts
> mailing list, also of Golang-dev and I am in disbelief at what it has come
> to recently.
>
> Aram Hăvărneanu is a very important contributor to the Go Language
> Project, I feel embarrased on behalf of the of the Go Language Project
> about how he has been treated. This is not OK, and this needs to be very
> clearly stated.
>
> This overreaction of your "code of conduct" moderator is beyond
> rediculous, to Arams very harmless statement about someones english
> language skills. I mean come on ...  Arams sentence is so non-lethal and
> tame that it is mind boggling that he should find such alienating
> reproachment to me. Especially after all of his valuable contributions.
> That it happened because of something he said on Redit just makes it so
> much worse.
>
> If you should loose (and it looks like you have) such an important
> contributor because of your nonsensical and rediculous  COC moderation
> system, then  this system of yours has just completely and utterly failed
> and it should be abandoned immediately till a more suitable solution can be
> found.  It will not do that someone who is obviously 

Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[prades . marq]

All I see here is nothing is done to moderate /r/golang despite threads 
being reported for harassment. What good is a code of conduct if it isn't 
enforced ? and when enforced , moderators have to come here to apologize 
for doing their jobs, like Sarah ? If you don't want me to bring /r/golang 
here, then do something about /r/golang because what is happening there is 
an embarrassment to the go community.

Le vendredi 4 novembre 2016 14:21:24 UTC+1, Thomas Bushnell, BSG a écrit :
>
> This list doesn't need to be a place to copy /r/ to. Please refrain from 
> public denunciations and speak privately with those you wish, and... Follow 
> the code of conduct if you believe a more formal response is called for.
>
> Thomas
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016, 6:17 AM  wrote:
>
>> >  then labeling someone's thread as "bullying" (a pretty serious charge 
>> in todays climate).
>>
>> Well now the target of the latest witch-hunt /u/gernest_ has responded 
>> on /r/golang, the previous thread that I linked I quote "broke his heart" , 
>> so you can't deny something is definitely wrong here :
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/5b2j38/what_is_idiomatic_go/
>>
>> > After the WTF moment. I calmed down and just realized what few innocent 
>> words can do. They broke my heart.
>>
>> > I'm confused, and definitely heart broken.
>>
>> AFAIK the original thread is still up on /r/golang , how long is the go 
>> community going to allow this kind of things ? 
>>
>>
>>  
>> Le vendredi 4 novembre 2016 06:49:07 UTC+1, andrewc...@gmail.com a 
>> écrit :
>>>
>>> I would also like to point out the extreme hypocrisy of saying Aram's 
>>> comment is  "unnecessary and insensitive" then labeling someone's thread as 
>>> "bullying" (a pretty serious charge in todays climate). Both of which I 
>>> would consider worse insults than saying someone has bad English. If i was 
>>> on the censorship panel I would almost certainly issue you a warning for 
>>> those.
>>>
>>> On Friday, November 4, 2016 at 6:03:53 PM UTC+13, prade...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:

 That's not up to you to judge if some comment is "harmless" or not. 
 Because you're not the person the comment has been directed at. Something 
 that might seem "harmless" to you might be perceived as insulting to 
 someone else. Aram's comment was unnecessary and insensitive to say the 
 least, it doesn't matter if he is an important contributor to Go or not. 
 If 
 they are rules they apply to everybody equally or they don't, that's what 
 rules are for. Frankly Sarah shouldn't have apologized for anything, she 
 did exactly what she was supposed to do in this case. It doesn't matter 
 how 
 sizable Aram's contribution is, it doesn't preclude him from showing a 
 little bit of respect. 

 Right now /r/golang is engaged in yet another bullying campaign against 
 another individual on this thread :


 https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/5ayvws/github_stars_are_no_more_a_valid_metric_for/
  
 

 (archived here : http://archive.is/znqJg )

 Just because that person has written "a non idiomatic framework" .?

 Someone is being labelled at "a marketer with a crappy product" . Is it 
 what moderators here call "a respectful environment" ? the thread is still 
 up as we speak. This has happened before with Martini, then Iris , now 
 utron. That's how the go community wants to grow ? 




 Le jeudi 3 novembre 2016 01:38:43 UTC+1, Paul a écrit :
>
> I just discovered this thread. I used to be an avid reader of 
> Golang-nuts mailing list, also of Golang-dev and I am in disbelief at 
> what 
> it has come to recently.  
>
> Aram Hăvărneanu is a very important contributor to the Go Language 
> Project, I feel embarrased on behalf of the of the Go Language Project 
> about how he has been treated. This is not OK, and this needs to be very 
> clearly stated. 
>
> This overreaction of your "code of conduct" moderator is beyond 
> rediculous, to Arams very harmless statement about someones english 
> language skills. I mean come on ...  Arams sentence is so non-lethal and 
> tame that it is mind boggling that he should find such alienating 
> reproachment to me. Especially after all of his valuable contributions.   
> That it happened because of something he said on Redit just makes it so 
> much worse. 
>
> If you should loose (and it looks like you have) such an important 
> contributor because of your nonsensical and rediculous  COC moderation 
> system, then  this system of yours has just completely and utterly failed 
> and it should be abandoned immediately till a 

[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[prades . marq]

>  then labeling someone's thread as "bullying" (a pretty serious charge in 
todays climate).

Well now the target of the latest witch-hunt /u/gernest_ has responded on 
/r/golang, the previous thread that I linked I quote "broke his heart" , so 
you can't deny something is definitely wrong here :

https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/5b2j38/what_is_idiomatic_go/

> After the WTF moment. I calmed down and just realized what few innocent 
words can do. They broke my heart.

> I'm confused, and definitely heart broken.

AFAIK the original thread is still up on /r/golang , how long is the go 
community going to allow this kind of things ? 


 
Le vendredi 4 novembre 2016 06:49:07 UTC+1, andrewc...@gmail.com a écrit :
>
> I would also like to point out the extreme hypocrisy of saying Aram's 
> comment is  "unnecessary and insensitive" then labeling someone's thread as 
> "bullying" (a pretty serious charge in todays climate). Both of which I 
> would consider worse insults than saying someone has bad English. If i was 
> on the censorship panel I would almost certainly issue you a warning for 
> those.
>
> On Friday, November 4, 2016 at 6:03:53 PM UTC+13, prade...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>>
>> That's not up to you to judge if some comment is "harmless" or not. 
>> Because you're not the person the comment has been directed at. Something 
>> that might seem "harmless" to you might be perceived as insulting to 
>> someone else. Aram's comment was unnecessary and insensitive to say the 
>> least, it doesn't matter if he is an important contributor to Go or not. If 
>> they are rules they apply to everybody equally or they don't, that's what 
>> rules are for. Frankly Sarah shouldn't have apologized for anything, she 
>> did exactly what she was supposed to do in this case. It doesn't matter how 
>> sizable Aram's contribution is, it doesn't preclude him from showing a 
>> little bit of respect. 
>>
>> Right now /r/golang is engaged in yet another bullying campaign against 
>> another individual on this thread :
>>
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/5ayvws/github_stars_are_no_more_a_valid_metric_for/
>>  
>> 
>>
>> (archived here : http://archive.is/znqJg )
>>
>> Just because that person has written "a non idiomatic framework" .?
>>
>> Someone is being labelled at "a marketer with a crappy product" . Is it 
>> what moderators here call "a respectful environment" ? the thread is still 
>> up as we speak. This has happened before with Martini, then Iris , now 
>> utron. That's how the go community wants to grow ? 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Le jeudi 3 novembre 2016 01:38:43 UTC+1, Paul a écrit :
>>>
>>> I just discovered this thread. I used to be an avid reader of 
>>> Golang-nuts mailing list, also of Golang-dev and I am in disbelief at what 
>>> it has come to recently.  
>>>
>>> Aram Hăvărneanu is a very important contributor to the Go Language 
>>> Project, I feel embarrased on behalf of the of the Go Language Project 
>>> about how he has been treated. This is not OK, and this needs to be very 
>>> clearly stated. 
>>>
>>> This overreaction of your "code of conduct" moderator is beyond 
>>> rediculous, to Arams very harmless statement about someones english 
>>> language skills. I mean come on ...  Arams sentence is so non-lethal and 
>>> tame that it is mind boggling that he should find such alienating 
>>> reproachment to me. Especially after all of his valuable contributions.   
>>> That it happened because of something he said on Redit just makes it so 
>>> much worse. 
>>>
>>> If you should loose (and it looks like you have) such an important 
>>> contributor because of your nonsensical and rediculous  COC moderation 
>>> system, then  this system of yours has just completely and utterly failed 
>>> and it should be abandoned immediately till a more suitable solution can be 
>>> found.  It will not do that someone who is obviously not engaged enough or 
>>> mature enough to excersize proper human judgement and care in such a 
>>> situation is left to cause such harm as this. And thats my opinion, now you 
>>> can ban me from your list for saying that if you want to. 
>>>
>>> p.s 
>>> Just to put things into perspective, I find Linus Torvalds exercise of 
>>> freedom of speech utterly refreshing by comparison (and significantly more 
>>> edgy), its such a breath of fresh air compared to what you are doing here. 
>>> And Linus gets results as you all know, just remember his action against 
>>> Nvidia and the waves it created. I am still chuckling about it even today. 
>>> I know some very delicate personality's will disagree with me on this, but 
>>> maybe they are in the wrong business to begin with. Software developement 
>>> has never been for the faint hearted.
>>>
>>> Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 1:36:23 PM UTC+2, Aram 

[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[andrewchamberss]

I would also like to point out the extreme hypocrisy of saying Aram's 
comment is  "unnecessary and insensitive" then labeling someone's thread as 
"bullying" (a pretty serious charge in todays climate). Both of which I 
would consider worse insults than saying someone has bad English. If i was 
on the censorship panel I would almost certainly issue you a warning for 
those.

On Friday, November 4, 2016 at 6:03:53 PM UTC+13, prade...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> That's not up to you to judge if some comment is "harmless" or not. 
> Because you're not the person the comment has been directed at. Something 
> that might seem "harmless" to you might be perceived as insulting to 
> someone else. Aram's comment was unnecessary and insensitive to say the 
> least, it doesn't matter if he is an important contributor to Go or not. If 
> they are rules they apply to everybody equally or they don't, that's what 
> rules are for. Frankly Sarah shouldn't have apologized for anything, she 
> did exactly what she was supposed to do in this case. It doesn't matter how 
> sizable Aram's contribution is, it doesn't preclude him from showing a 
> little bit of respect. 
>
> Right now /r/golang is engaged in yet another bullying campaign against 
> another individual on this thread :
>
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/5ayvws/github_stars_are_no_more_a_valid_metric_for/
>  
> 
>
> (archived here : http://archive.is/znqJg )
>
> Just because that person has written "a non idiomatic framework" .?
>
> Someone is being labelled at "a marketer with a crappy product" . Is it 
> what moderators here call "a respectful environment" ? the thread is still 
> up as we speak. This has happened before with Martini, then Iris , now 
> utron. That's how the go community wants to grow ? 
>
>
>
>
> Le jeudi 3 novembre 2016 01:38:43 UTC+1, Paul a écrit :
>>
>> I just discovered this thread. I used to be an avid reader of Golang-nuts 
>> mailing list, also of Golang-dev and I am in disbelief at what it has come 
>> to recently.  
>>
>> Aram Hăvărneanu is a very important contributor to the Go Language 
>> Project, I feel embarrased on behalf of the of the Go Language Project 
>> about how he has been treated. This is not OK, and this needs to be very 
>> clearly stated. 
>>
>> This overreaction of your "code of conduct" moderator is beyond 
>> rediculous, to Arams very harmless statement about someones english 
>> language skills. I mean come on ...  Arams sentence is so non-lethal and 
>> tame that it is mind boggling that he should find such alienating 
>> reproachment to me. Especially after all of his valuable contributions.   
>> That it happened because of something he said on Redit just makes it so 
>> much worse. 
>>
>> If you should loose (and it looks like you have) such an important 
>> contributor because of your nonsensical and rediculous  COC moderation 
>> system, then  this system of yours has just completely and utterly failed 
>> and it should be abandoned immediately till a more suitable solution can be 
>> found.  It will not do that someone who is obviously not engaged enough or 
>> mature enough to excersize proper human judgement and care in such a 
>> situation is left to cause such harm as this. And thats my opinion, now you 
>> can ban me from your list for saying that if you want to. 
>>
>> p.s 
>> Just to put things into perspective, I find Linus Torvalds exercise of 
>> freedom of speech utterly refreshing by comparison (and significantly more 
>> edgy), its such a breath of fresh air compared to what you are doing here. 
>> And Linus gets results as you all know, just remember his action against 
>> Nvidia and the waves it created. I am still chuckling about it even today. 
>> I know some very delicate personality's will disagree with me on this, but 
>> maybe they are in the wrong business to begin with. Software developement 
>> has never been for the faint hearted.
>>
>> Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 1:36:23 PM UTC+2, Aram Hăvărneanu wrote:
>>>
>>> I have received a very insulting and distressing e-mail from Sarah
>>> Adams, who claims to represent the The Go Code of Conduct Team, an
>>> illicit bully organization who claims authority about what Go
>>> contributors think and say outside the Go mailing lists. I do not
>>> recognize this group's legitimacy in these matters.
>>>
>>> The e-mail says:
>>>
>>> We received a report about your comment on this thread
>>>
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/d8wdynd
>>> :
>>> "Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what was
>>> going on".
>>>
>>> This comment goes against our community Code of Conduct,
>>> https://golang.org/conduct. The comment is not respectful,
>>> and would have been more productive just as, "I couldn't
>>> 

[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[prades . marq]

That's not up to you to judge if some comment is "harmless" or not. Because 
you're not the person the comment has been directed at. Something that 
might seem "harmless" to you might be perceived as insulting to someone 
else. Aram's comment was unnecessary and insensitive to say the least, it 
doesn't matter if he is an important contributor to Go or not. If they are 
rules they apply to everybody equally or they don't, that's what rules are 
for. Frankly Sarah shouldn't have apologized for anything, she did exactly 
what she was supposed to do in this case. It doesn't matter how sizable 
Aram's contribution is, it doesn't preclude him from showing a little bit 
of respect. 

Right now /r/golang is engaged in yet another bullying campaign against 
another individual on this thread :

https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/5ayvws/github_stars_are_no_more_a_valid_metric_for/

(archived here : http://archive.is/znqJg )

Just because that person has written "a non idiomatic framework" .?

Someone is being labelled at "a marketer with a crappy product" . Is it 
what moderators here call "a respectful environment" ? the thread is still 
up as we speak. This has happened before with Martini, then Iris , now 
utron. That's how the go community wants to grow ? 




Le jeudi 3 novembre 2016 01:38:43 UTC+1, Paul a écrit :
>
> I just discovered this thread. I used to be an avid reader of Golang-nuts 
> mailing list, also of Golang-dev and I am in disbelief at what it has come 
> to recently.  
>
> Aram Hăvărneanu is a very important contributor to the Go Language 
> Project, I feel embarrased on behalf of the of the Go Language Project 
> about how he has been treated. This is not OK, and this needs to be very 
> clearly stated. 
>
> This overreaction of your "code of conduct" moderator is beyond 
> rediculous, to Arams very harmless statement about someones english 
> language skills. I mean come on ...  Arams sentence is so non-lethal and 
> tame that it is mind boggling that he should find such alienating 
> reproachment to me. Especially after all of his valuable contributions.   
> That it happened because of something he said on Redit just makes it so 
> much worse. 
>
> If you should loose (and it looks like you have) such an important 
> contributor because of your nonsensical and rediculous  COC moderation 
> system, then  this system of yours has just completely and utterly failed 
> and it should be abandoned immediately till a more suitable solution can be 
> found.  It will not do that someone who is obviously not engaged enough or 
> mature enough to excersize proper human judgement and care in such a 
> situation is left to cause such harm as this. And thats my opinion, now you 
> can ban me from your list for saying that if you want to. 
>
> p.s 
> Just to put things into perspective, I find Linus Torvalds exercise of 
> freedom of speech utterly refreshing by comparison (and significantly more 
> edgy), its such a breath of fresh air compared to what you are doing here. 
> And Linus gets results as you all know, just remember his action against 
> Nvidia and the waves it created. I am still chuckling about it even today. 
> I know some very delicate personality's will disagree with me on this, but 
> maybe they are in the wrong business to begin with. Software developement 
> has never been for the faint hearted.
>
> Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 1:36:23 PM UTC+2, Aram Hăvărneanu wrote:
>>
>> I have received a very insulting and distressing e-mail from Sarah
>> Adams, who claims to represent the The Go Code of Conduct Team, an
>> illicit bully organization who claims authority about what Go
>> contributors think and say outside the Go mailing lists. I do not
>> recognize this group's legitimacy in these matters.
>>
>> The e-mail says:
>>
>> We received a report about your comment on this thread
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/d8wdynd
>> :
>> "Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what was
>> going on".
>>
>> This comment goes against our community Code of Conduct,
>> https://golang.org/conduct. The comment is not respectful,
>> and would have been more productive just as, "I couldn't
>> understand what was going on".
>>
>> Please consider this a warning from the Code of Conduct
>> working group.
>>
>> Some more context is necessary. There is someone in the Go community
>> who literally steals other people's code, receives money for it,
>> and actively tries to covers his tracks.
>>
>> A person named Florin Pățan provided an overview:
>>
>> [1] 
>> http://www.florinpatan.ro/2016/10/why-you-should-not-use-iris-for-your-go.html
>>
>> which has been discussed on reddit:
>>
>> [2] 
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57tmp1/why_you_should_not_use_iris_for_your_go_projects
>> .
>>
>> Reddit also discussed this thief's action in another thread:
>>
>> [3] 
>> 

[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

['Paul' via golang-nuts]

I just discovered this thread. I used to be an avid reader of Golang-nuts 
mailing list, also of Golang-dev and I am in disbelief at what it has come 
to recently.  

Aram Hăvărneanu is a very important contributor to the Go Language Project, 
I feel embarrased on behalf of the of the Go Language Project about how he 
has been treated. This is not OK, and this needs to be very clearly stated. 

This overreaction of your "code of conduct" moderator is beyond rediculous, 
to Arams very harmless statement about someones english language skills. I 
mean come on ...  Arams sentence is so non-lethal and tame that it is mind 
boggling that he should find such alienating reproachment to me. Especially 
after all of his valuable contributions.   That it happened because of 
something he said on Redit just makes it so much worse. 

If you should loose (and it looks like you have) such an important 
contributor because of your nonsensical and rediculous  COC moderation 
system, then  this system of yours has just completely and utterly failed 
and it should be abandoned immediately till a more suitable solution can be 
found.  It will not do that someone who is obviously not engaged enough or 
mature enough to excersize proper human judgement and care in such a 
situation is left to cause such harm as this. And thats my opinion, now you 
can ban me from your list for saying that if you want to. 

p.s 
Just to put things into perspective, I find Linus Torvalds exercise of 
freedom of speech utterly refreshing by comparison (and significantly more 
edgy), its such a breath of fresh air compared to what you are doing here. 
And Linus gets results as you all know, just remember his action against 
Nvidia and the waves it created. I am still chuckling about it even today. 
I know some very delicate personality's will disagree with me on this, but 
maybe they are in the wrong business to begin with. Software developement 
has never been for the faint hearted.

Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 1:36:23 PM UTC+2, Aram Hăvărneanu wrote:
>
> I have received a very insulting and distressing e-mail from Sarah
> Adams, who claims to represent the The Go Code of Conduct Team, an
> illicit bully organization who claims authority about what Go
> contributors think and say outside the Go mailing lists. I do not
> recognize this group's legitimacy in these matters.
>
> The e-mail says:
>
> We received a report about your comment on this thread
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/d8wdynd
> :
> "Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what was
> going on".
>
> This comment goes against our community Code of Conduct,
> https://golang.org/conduct. The comment is not respectful,
> and would have been more productive just as, "I couldn't
> understand what was going on".
>
> Please consider this a warning from the Code of Conduct
> working group.
>
> Some more context is necessary. There is someone in the Go community
> who literally steals other people's code, receives money for it,
> and actively tries to covers his tracks.
>
> A person named Florin Pățan provided an overview:
>
> [1] 
> http://www.florinpatan.ro/2016/10/why-you-should-not-use-iris-for-your-go.html
>
> which has been discussed on reddit:
>
> [2] 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57tmp1/why_you_should_not_use_iris_for_your_go_projects
> .
>
> Reddit also discussed this thief's action in another thread:
>
> [3] 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/
>
> I have archived these documents here:
>
> [1] http://archive.is/9oN1A
> [2] http://archive.is/Q36G5
> [3] http://archive.is/aSFUg
>
> The comment in question refers to this GitHub issue, also archived:
>
> [4] https://github.com/avelino/awesome-go/pull/1137
> [4] http://archive.is/7xgc7
>
> Now take a look at what I said, and what Sarah Adams in her
> infinite arrogance suggests I should have said:
>
> Aram: Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what
>  was going on
>
> Sarah: I couldn't understand what was going on
>
> If you compare these two phrases: you can see that the problem Sarah
> Adams has is with "their English was so bad".
>
> In other words, Sarah's problem is with speaking the objective
> *TRUTH*.
>
> Whether someone speaks good or bad English is an objective fact
> easily determined by anyone who speaks English at some level of
> proficiency. I encourage all English speakers to take a look at [4]
> and do an individual assessment of the level of proficiency in English
> those sock puppets possess.
>
> I will not be policed around for telling the *TRUTH*. I will not
> be silenced into political compliance. I will not tolerate other
> people who tell me what is acceptable to say, especially when these
> people only want to hide the *OBJECTIVE TRUTH*.
>
> The comment is not respectful
>
> Damn right it wasn't. You or your organization has no authority
> mandating how respectful my 

[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Tong Sun]

I totally agree. I *am *afraid to say anything there. The culture there is 
so different than here, just look at the previous responses to this message 
and you sure will understand that. (and I'm afraid I'll be flamed for this 
response as well)

Thus I second to exclude it from any official go connection. I too believe 
Sarah Adams did the best she could there to de-escalate the situation, but 
when the situation is heated, or someone complains, misjudgments are 
inevitable. 


On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 10:41:42 AM UTC-4, prade...@gmail.com 
wrote:
>
> Frankly /r/golang is so toxic I stopped posting there, it should be either 
> shut down or officially excluded from any official go forum. 
>
> The code of conduct serves very little purpose 
> given what happens there constantly, 
>
> People like to target projects, insult their author and call them thieves 
> to destroy their reputation and then complain and play the victim when they 
> are being called out when caught misbehaving ? 
>
> I say shut down /r/golang , there is very little moderation there to begin 
> with.
>
> I'm sure Sarah Adams did the best she could to de-escalate the situation 
> but frankly there is nothing that can really be done due to the nature of 
> reddit.
>
> Le jeudi 27 octobre 2016 13:36:23 UTC+2, Aram Hăvărneanu a écrit :
>>
>> I have received a very insulting and distressing e-mail from Sarah
>> Adams, who claims to represent the The Go Code of Conduct Team, an
>> illicit bully organization who claims authority about what Go
>> contributors think and say outside the Go mailing lists. I do not
>> recognize this group's legitimacy in these matters.
>>
>> The e-mail says:
>>
>> We received a report about your comment on this thread
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/d8wdynd
>> :
>> "Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what was
>> going on".
>>
>> This comment goes against our community Code of Conduct,
>> https://golang.org/conduct. The comment is not respectful,
>> and would have been more productive just as, "I couldn't
>> understand what was going on".
>>
>> Please consider this a warning from the Code of Conduct
>> working group.
>>
>> Some more context is necessary. There is someone in the Go community
>> who literally steals other people's code, receives money for it,
>> and actively tries to covers his tracks.
>>
>> A person named Florin Pățan provided an overview:
>>
>> [1] 
>> http://www.florinpatan.ro/2016/10/why-you-should-not-use-iris-for-your-go.html
>>
>> which has been discussed on reddit:
>>
>> [2] 
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57tmp1/why_you_should_not_use_iris_for_your_go_projects
>> .
>>
>> Reddit also discussed this thief's action in another thread:
>>
>> [3] 
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/
>>
>> I have archived these documents here:
>>
>> [1] http://archive.is/9oN1A
>> [2] http://archive.is/Q36G5
>> [3] http://archive.is/aSFUg
>>
>> The comment in question refers to this GitHub issue, also archived:
>>
>> [4] https://github.com/avelino/awesome-go/pull/1137
>> [4] http://archive.is/7xgc7
>>
>> Now take a look at what I said, and what Sarah Adams in her
>> infinite arrogance suggests I should have said:
>>
>> Aram: Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what
>>  was going on
>>
>> Sarah: I couldn't understand what was going on
>>
>> If you compare these two phrases: you can see that the problem Sarah
>> Adams has is with "their English was so bad".
>>
>> In other words, Sarah's problem is with speaking the objective
>> *TRUTH*.
>>
>> Whether someone speaks good or bad English is an objective fact
>> easily determined by anyone who speaks English at some level of
>> proficiency. I encourage all English speakers to take a look at [4]
>> and do an individual assessment of the level of proficiency in English
>> those sock puppets possess.
>>
>> I will not be policed around for telling the *TRUTH*. I will not
>> be silenced into political compliance. I will not tolerate other
>> people who tell me what is acceptable to say, especially when these
>> people only want to hide the *OBJECTIVE TRUTH*.
>>
>> The comment is not respectful
>>
>> Damn right it wasn't. You or your organization has no authority
>> mandating how respectful my speech is. What level of arrogance.
>>
>> However, it was not disrespectful. It was an objective assessment
>> of an *infractor's* level of English competence.
>>
>> I owe nobody respect. Certainly not someone who breaks the law and
>> steals other people's intellectual property. Respect is earned.
>>
>> and would have been more productive just as
>>
>> Ah, yes, here you can see in action the new-age practice of corporate
>> double speak applied to open source projects. This is not Google.
>> You are not fooling me or anyone else who still has a grain of
>> independent thought left.
>>
>> This is a pathetic and disgusting 

Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Sokolov Yura]

I don't like CoC.
But I like wise moderation.
I may to be toxic sometimes. I think, it is inevitable human nature (although 
some tries to look like sweet candies).
But I don't want to be extremly toxic. I do not want to offend without reason.

I've been contacted privately by Andrew Gerrand two times last month. Both time 
i was a bit toxic. First time I really didn't want to offend a man, I just want 
to stimulate him. Second time I was angry on other man, cause he was annoying 
and not attentive to discussions, and I used light curse.
Both times I described my position without try to make it public.

Third time I was warned in public.

I think Andrew Gerrand is adequate and correct moderator.
I do not bind his actions with CoC, cause I don't like CoC.
But I like wise moderation.

This discussion is hysterical. It smell like spew.
Instead of private dialog with moderator, Aram hurried up to make public holy 
war.

Although I agree that "their english was so bad" is just subjective impression 
and not offence, I could not understand: why Aram didn't try explain it to 
Sarah?

Holy war could be started at any point of time.
But war is just destruction.
And discussion is creation.
And court is regulation.

What is this discussion? It doesn't smell like a creation or regulation. It 
smells like destruction.

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Caleb Spare]

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Aldrin Leal  wrote:
> Regardless, I wonder what would be the action taken if it were more than a
> "warning".
>
> Would the CoC people issue a "SP" declaration? An Index Comunitum
> Prohibitorum?

Why wonder? You can read for yourself at https://golang.org/conduct.

> When using the official Go spaces you should act in the spirit of the “Gopher 
> values”. If you conduct yourself in a way that is explicitly forbidden by the 
> CoC, you will be warned and asked to stop. If you do not stop, you will be 
> removed from our community spaces temporarily. Repeated, willful breaches of 
> the CoC will result in a permanent ban.

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Jaana Burcu Dogan]

On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Nate Finch  wrote:

> It seems like most of the problem with this whole situation comes from the
> wording of the "warning"
>
> Please consider this a warning from the Code of Conduct working group.
>>
>
>  "consider this a warning" can be interpreted as a threat (though the
> "Please" in front should soften it somewhat).  I don't think it was
> intended as such, but I think it's clear some people do read it that way.
> Perhaps just a rewording would prevent such a reaction in the future.
>

I agree.

The goal of the CoC should be creating awareness that a perspective is
might be perceived differently and let the OP know. The goal here isn't
policing the thoughts. Wording in the email is not helping here.

On the other hand, I do not think the issue is not the limitation of
expressing the truth as the OP mentions. If a person has a disability, you
don't seek for reasons to announce it on a public forum and then claim you
are the savior of truth. English proficiency issue is similar given native
and fluent users of the English language are clearly more advantaged in
English speaking communities.

We have many people in the community that are not necessarily using this
language as their primary language and IMHO solely focusing on this fact is
a distraction and received badly on the other hand.

I agree with some replies here saying that r/golang has far more worse.
Things look like they are cherry-picked because no one uses conduct@ and
once a single case is reported, it is perceived as people are reacting
excessively on a specific case.

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Kiki Sugiaman]

No harm done, I've done worse with a desktop. Hah!


On 29/10/16 02:47, Henrik Johansson wrote:

Oh I didn't mean to direct it to you. Inbox wouldn't let me edit the
recipient list without harming my phone...

You make good points though so I am glad I did! ☺️



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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Henrik Johansson]

Oh I didn't mean to direct it to you. Inbox wouldn't let me edit the
recipient list without harming my phone...

You make good points though so I am glad I did! ☺️

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 17:34 Kiki Sugiaman  wrote:

> Oh, I agree. The aggressive/threatening email was an unwarranted,
> disproportioned response. I'm just trying to understand where the
> strawmans/tangents (or what I perceive as, willing to be corrected) are
> coming from. And I didn't list all.
>
> Surgical arguments > narratives.
>
>
> On 29/10/16 01:31, Henrik Johansson wrote:
> > The problem isn't the CoC or that the group it responded to a complaint
> > but that it right away started with a very aggressive warning email.
> >
> > Why not talk to Aram like human being explaining the situation. This
> > would have given him a chance to resolve it on his own.
> > Seems like a much simpler and more dignified way of fixing it than
> > escalating to an officially stamped letter.
> >
> > fre 28 okt. 2016 kl 15:41 skrev Kiki Sugiaman  > >:
> >
> > I'm with you on pushing back. It keeps those in controlling positions
> > from being too self-convenient in exercising said control.
> >
> > However, it is only effective when the person doing that is reasoned
> and
> > does not resort to tangents, strawmans, and overreaction.
> >
> > - Why bring generics into this? We know that we don't have it
> because we
> > can't come up with one (yet) that satisfies the competing
> constraints of
> > the core team, and not because nobody in the community is capable of
> > implementing _any_ kind of generics (which anyone is free to write).
> >
> > - When has the CoC been enforced to curtail ideas/programs that some
> > didn't like?
> >
> >
> >
> > On 28/10/16 22:33, Manuel Amador (Rudd-O) wrote:
> > > On 10/27/2016 02:29 PM, Jordan Krage wrote:
> > >> At the very least, this kind of CoC 'enforcement' should be
> entirely
> > >> public and transparent.  How are others supposed to learn what is
> > >> considered a violation, when violators are only contacted
> > privately by
> > >> email?
> > >
> > > The point of a CoC is to police people's thoughts and suppress
> those
> > > thoughts when those thoughts are disapproved of by people who act
> as
> > > authorities for said CoC.  So, if they do not like your ideas /
> > programs
> > > / leanings, it doesn't matter whether you /actually/ are toxic, the
> > > self-appointed enforcers will still accuse you of being toxic, and
> > > banish you anyway.
> > >
> > > This is how thought control is implemented nowadays.
> > >
> > > It's high time people realized this.  And high time good people
> > started
> > > pushing back.
> > >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "golang-nuts" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> > send an email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
> > .
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
>
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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Kiki Sugiaman]

Oh, I agree. The aggressive/threatening email was an unwarranted, 
disproportioned response. I'm just trying to understand where the 
strawmans/tangents (or what I perceive as, willing to be corrected) are 
coming from. And I didn't list all.


Surgical arguments > narratives.


On 29/10/16 01:31, Henrik Johansson wrote:

The problem isn't the CoC or that the group it responded to a complaint
but that it right away started with a very aggressive warning email.

Why not talk to Aram like human being explaining the situation. This
would have given him a chance to resolve it on his own.
Seems like a much simpler and more dignified way of fixing it than
escalating to an officially stamped letter.

fre 28 okt. 2016 kl 15:41 skrev Kiki Sugiaman >:

I'm with you on pushing back. It keeps those in controlling positions
from being too self-convenient in exercising said control.

However, it is only effective when the person doing that is reasoned and
does not resort to tangents, strawmans, and overreaction.

- Why bring generics into this? We know that we don't have it because we
can't come up with one (yet) that satisfies the competing constraints of
the core team, and not because nobody in the community is capable of
implementing _any_ kind of generics (which anyone is free to write).

- When has the CoC been enforced to curtail ideas/programs that some
didn't like?



On 28/10/16 22:33, Manuel Amador (Rudd-O) wrote:
> On 10/27/2016 02:29 PM, Jordan Krage wrote:
>> At the very least, this kind of CoC 'enforcement' should be entirely
>> public and transparent.  How are others supposed to learn what is
>> considered a violation, when violators are only contacted
privately by
>> email?
>
> The point of a CoC is to police people's thoughts and suppress those
> thoughts when those thoughts are disapproved of by people who act as
> authorities for said CoC.  So, if they do not like your ideas /
programs
> / leanings, it doesn't matter whether you /actually/ are toxic, the
> self-appointed enforcers will still accuse you of being toxic, and
> banish you anyway.
>
> This is how thought control is implemented nowadays.
>
> It's high time people realized this.  And high time good people
started
> pushing back.
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Henrik Johansson]

The problem isn't the CoC or that the group it responded to a complaint but
that it right away started with a very aggressive warning email.

Why not talk to Aram like human being explaining the situation. This would
have given him a chance to resolve it on his own.
Seems like a much simpler and more dignified way of fixing it than
escalating to an officially stamped letter.

fre 28 okt. 2016 kl 15:41 skrev Kiki Sugiaman :

> I'm with you on pushing back. It keeps those in controlling positions
> from being too self-convenient in exercising said control.
>
> However, it is only effective when the person doing that is reasoned and
> does not resort to tangents, strawmans, and overreaction.
>
> - Why bring generics into this? We know that we don't have it because we
> can't come up with one (yet) that satisfies the competing constraints of
> the core team, and not because nobody in the community is capable of
> implementing _any_ kind of generics (which anyone is free to write).
>
> - When has the CoC been enforced to curtail ideas/programs that some
> didn't like?
>
>
>
> On 28/10/16 22:33, Manuel Amador (Rudd-O) wrote:
> > On 10/27/2016 02:29 PM, Jordan Krage wrote:
> >> At the very least, this kind of CoC 'enforcement' should be entirely
> >> public and transparent.  How are others supposed to learn what is
> >> considered a violation, when violators are only contacted privately by
> >> email?
> >
> > The point of a CoC is to police people's thoughts and suppress those
> > thoughts when those thoughts are disapproved of by people who act as
> > authorities for said CoC.  So, if they do not like your ideas / programs
> > / leanings, it doesn't matter whether you /actually/ are toxic, the
> > self-appointed enforcers will still accuse you of being toxic, and
> > banish you anyway.
> >
> > This is how thought control is implemented nowadays.
> >
> > It's high time people realized this.  And high time good people started
> > pushing back.
> >
>
> --
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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Kiki Sugiaman]

I'm with you on pushing back. It keeps those in controlling positions 
from being too self-convenient in exercising said control.


However, it is only effective when the person doing that is reasoned and 
does not resort to tangents, strawmans, and overreaction.


- Why bring generics into this? We know that we don't have it because we 
can't come up with one (yet) that satisfies the competing constraints of 
the core team, and not because nobody in the community is capable of 
implementing _any_ kind of generics (which anyone is free to write).


- When has the CoC been enforced to curtail ideas/programs that some 
didn't like?




On 28/10/16 22:33, Manuel Amador (Rudd-O) wrote:

On 10/27/2016 02:29 PM, Jordan Krage wrote:

At the very least, this kind of CoC 'enforcement' should be entirely
public and transparent.  How are others supposed to learn what is
considered a violation, when violators are only contacted privately by
email?


The point of a CoC is to police people's thoughts and suppress those
thoughts when those thoughts are disapproved of by people who act as
authorities for said CoC.  So, if they do not like your ideas / programs
/ leanings, it doesn't matter whether you /actually/ are toxic, the
self-appointed enforcers will still accuse you of being toxic, and
banish you anyway.

This is how thought control is implemented nowadays.

It's high time people realized this.  And high time good people started
pushing back.



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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Daniel Skinner]

>
> The original e-mail is clear that it was passing along a complaint
> from someone else.  That person was following the procedure outlined
> in Go's code of conduct (https://golang.org/conduct).
>

In bold, the CoC calls out, "Note that the goal of the Code of Conduct and
the Working Group is to resolve conflicts in the most harmonious way
possible."

I fail to see how this goal can be accomplished without also reaching out
to the person in question before reaching "a decision as to how to act".
This is an oversight in the CoC as Aram was issued a private warning and
told what he should have done instead without consulting him first.

In fact, the preceding bullet point says "the Working Group may reach out
to other community members for more context". It would appear the Working
Group will reach out to everyone but the person in question (which might be
characterized as a witch hunt).

I don't think any reasonable person would object to receiving an email like
"someone who wasn't comfortable contacting you directly felt
threatened/degraded/etc by your comment here [...]" and seeing how the
person in question would like to handle it *first *in an anonymous
fashion before any decision by the working group is reached.

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[prades . marq]

This person is old enough to answer me himself, he doesn't need your help 
for that , I wasn't talking to you so mind your business. And how about you 
dump your patronizing tone and go back to your own business ? Your comment 
is useless.

Le vendredi 28 octobre 2016 13:30:33 UTC+2, Manuel Amador (Rudd-O) a écrit :
>
> On 10/28/2016 03:56 AM, prade...@gmail.com  wrote: 
> > Sure you willfully participate on a forum often used for insults, 
> > character assassination, witch hunts and doxxing. This isn't the first 
> > time shit like this happens on /r/golang , and frankly it gives the 
> > whole Go community a bad name. Keep being embarrassed "on my behalf", 
> > Who the hell do you think you are ? I didn't show you disrespect, 
> > don't insult me. 
>
> The person you just addressed is (a) correct (b) not insulting you. 
>
> You are part of the problem, yet your self-righteousness makes you think 
> that you have special license to act in the way you do, which exempts 
> you from the CoC which you are defending. 
>
> Chill out and dump the self-righteousness. 
>
> -- 
> Rudd-O 
> http://rudd-o.com/ 
>
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Ian Lance Taylor]

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:02 AM,   wrote:
>
> That being said, I personally find the fact that someone is paid to sit
> around censoring really mild messages and making feel good rules that do
> more harm than good kind of gross. Doesn't Google have better things to
> spend money on like research and development, getting out of the ad space,
> or maybe fixing the horrible google cloud documentation?

The original e-mail is clear that it was passing along a complaint
from someone else.  That person was following the procedure outlined
in Go's code of conduct (https://golang.org/conduct).

The moderators of the code of conduct, who are listed in the code,
include people who work at Google but it is not the case that Google
is paying people to sit around censoring messages.

Ian

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Manuel Amador (Rudd-O)]

On 10/27/2016 03:33 PM, charras...@gmail.com wrote:
> code of conduct workers should work on adding generics to compilers

True.  But, consider this: if they /could/ accomplish that feat, then
they wouldn't be wasting time policing people's thoughts and "propriety".

What have thought puritans ever delivered?

(Aside from unhappiness and misery, of course.)

-- 
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http://rudd-o.com/

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[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[prades . marq]

Sure you willfully participate on a forum often used for insults, character 
assassination, witch hunts and doxxing. This isn't the first time shit like 
this happens on /r/golang , and frankly it gives the whole Go community a 
bad name. Keep being embarrassed "on my behalf", Who the hell do you think 
you are ? I didn't show you disrespect, don't insult me.

Le vendredi 28 octobre 2016 05:00:40 UTC+2, ad...@garyshood.com a écrit :
>
> The golang subreddit is infinitely more useful and accessible than most 
> golang resource sites and this mailing list. Shutting it down should not be 
> considered (notice how nobody is responding postively to your idea? (that's 
> how you know it is bad)). I'm embarrassed on your behalf that you even 
> suggested this.
>
> On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 7:41:42 AM UTC-7, prade...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>>
>> Frankly /r/golang is so toxic I stopped posting there, it should be 
>> either shut down or officially excluded from any official go forum. 
>>
>> The code of conduct serves very little purpose 
>> given what happens there constantly, 
>>
>> People like to target projects, insult their author and call them thieves 
>> to destroy their reputation and then complain and play the victim when they 
>> are being called out when caught misbehaving ? 
>>
>> I say shut down /r/golang , there is very little moderation there to 
>> begin with.
>>
>> I'm sure Sarah Adams did the best she could to de-escalate the situation 
>> but frankly there is nothing that can really be done due to the nature of 
>> reddit.
>>
>> Le jeudi 27 octobre 2016 13:36:23 UTC+2, Aram Hăvărneanu a écrit :
>>>
>>> I have received a very insulting and distressing e-mail from Sarah
>>> Adams, who claims to represent the The Go Code of Conduct Team, an
>>> illicit bully organization who claims authority about what Go
>>> contributors think and say outside the Go mailing lists. I do not
>>> recognize this group's legitimacy in these matters.
>>>
>>> The e-mail says:
>>>
>>> We received a report about your comment on this thread
>>>
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/d8wdynd
>>> :
>>> "Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what was
>>> going on".
>>>
>>> This comment goes against our community Code of Conduct,
>>> https://golang.org/conduct. The comment is not respectful,
>>> and would have been more productive just as, "I couldn't
>>> understand what was going on".
>>>
>>> Please consider this a warning from the Code of Conduct
>>> working group.
>>>
>>> Some more context is necessary. There is someone in the Go community
>>> who literally steals other people's code, receives money for it,
>>> and actively tries to covers his tracks.
>>>
>>> A person named Florin Pățan provided an overview:
>>>
>>> [1] 
>>> http://www.florinpatan.ro/2016/10/why-you-should-not-use-iris-for-your-go.html
>>>
>>> which has been discussed on reddit:
>>>
>>> [2] 
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57tmp1/why_you_should_not_use_iris_for_your_go_projects
>>> .
>>>
>>> Reddit also discussed this thief's action in another thread:
>>>
>>> [3] 
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/
>>>
>>> I have archived these documents here:
>>>
>>> [1] http://archive.is/9oN1A
>>> [2] http://archive.is/Q36G5
>>> [3] http://archive.is/aSFUg
>>>
>>> The comment in question refers to this GitHub issue, also archived:
>>>
>>> [4] https://github.com/avelino/awesome-go/pull/1137
>>> [4] http://archive.is/7xgc7
>>>
>>> Now take a look at what I said, and what Sarah Adams in her
>>> infinite arrogance suggests I should have said:
>>>
>>> Aram: Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what
>>>  was going on
>>>
>>> Sarah: I couldn't understand what was going on
>>>
>>> If you compare these two phrases: you can see that the problem Sarah
>>> Adams has is with "their English was so bad".
>>>
>>> In other words, Sarah's problem is with speaking the objective
>>> *TRUTH*.
>>>
>>> Whether someone speaks good or bad English is an objective fact
>>> easily determined by anyone who speaks English at some level of
>>> proficiency. I encourage all English speakers to take a look at [4]
>>> and do an individual assessment of the level of proficiency in English
>>> those sock puppets possess.
>>>
>>> I will not be policed around for telling the *TRUTH*. I will not
>>> be silenced into political compliance. I will not tolerate other
>>> people who tell me what is acceptable to say, especially when these
>>> people only want to hide the *OBJECTIVE TRUTH*.
>>>
>>> The comment is not respectful
>>>
>>> Damn right it wasn't. You or your organization has no authority
>>> mandating how respectful my speech is. What level of arrogance.
>>>
>>> However, it was not disrespectful. It was an objective assessment
>>> of an *infractor's* level of English competence.
>>>
>>> I owe nobody respect. Certainly not someone who breaks the law and
>>> steals 

Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Reto Brunner]

At the CoC team,
You do realize that reddit is not actually yours to govern yes?
Reddit is being reddit... everywhere you can just post "anomalously"  the
atmosphere is rather more, well, outspoken than on a public mailing list.

Why don't you just deal with it and accept that there are other mentalities
than yours and let people have their personal life?

Aram, I find it very good that you chose a public mailing list instead of
contacting just the team. Like this there is the possibility to actually
have a discussion about when and where the code of conduct team should or
shouldn't issue "warnings" (or threads)

On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 at 22:32 Andrew Gerrand  wrote:

>
> On 28 October 2016 at 03:53, mjy  wrote:
>
> It's partly a cultural thing, I suppose. Some people consider the e-mail
> bland, others (like me) threatening. Someone should educate the CoC crew
> about these cultural, perhaps personality differences so they can improve
> their tone to avoid unnecessary escalation.
>
>
> We are definitely still learning, and I think it's clear that we missed
> the mark communicating with Aram here. It was not, and would never be, our
> intention to come across as threatening or harsh. I am dismayed by how this
> turned out. This will certainly inform our actions in the future.
>
> Andrew
>
> --
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[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[admin]

The golang subreddit is infinitely more useful and accessible than most 
golang resource sites and this mailing list. Shutting it down should not be 
considered (notice how nobody is responding postively to your idea? (that's 
how you know it is bad)). I'm embarrassed on your behalf that you even 
suggested this.

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 7:41:42 AM UTC-7, prade...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Frankly /r/golang is so toxic I stopped posting there, it should be either 
> shut down or officially excluded from any official go forum. 
>
> The code of conduct serves very little purpose 
> given what happens there constantly, 
>
> People like to target projects, insult their author and call them thieves 
> to destroy their reputation and then complain and play the victim when they 
> are being called out when caught misbehaving ? 
>
> I say shut down /r/golang , there is very little moderation there to begin 
> with.
>
> I'm sure Sarah Adams did the best she could to de-escalate the situation 
> but frankly there is nothing that can really be done due to the nature of 
> reddit.
>
> Le jeudi 27 octobre 2016 13:36:23 UTC+2, Aram Hăvărneanu a écrit :
>>
>> I have received a very insulting and distressing e-mail from Sarah
>> Adams, who claims to represent the The Go Code of Conduct Team, an
>> illicit bully organization who claims authority about what Go
>> contributors think and say outside the Go mailing lists. I do not
>> recognize this group's legitimacy in these matters.
>>
>> The e-mail says:
>>
>> We received a report about your comment on this thread
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/d8wdynd
>> :
>> "Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what was
>> going on".
>>
>> This comment goes against our community Code of Conduct,
>> https://golang.org/conduct. The comment is not respectful,
>> and would have been more productive just as, "I couldn't
>> understand what was going on".
>>
>> Please consider this a warning from the Code of Conduct
>> working group.
>>
>> Some more context is necessary. There is someone in the Go community
>> who literally steals other people's code, receives money for it,
>> and actively tries to covers his tracks.
>>
>> A person named Florin Pățan provided an overview:
>>
>> [1] 
>> http://www.florinpatan.ro/2016/10/why-you-should-not-use-iris-for-your-go.html
>>
>> which has been discussed on reddit:
>>
>> [2] 
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57tmp1/why_you_should_not_use_iris_for_your_go_projects
>> .
>>
>> Reddit also discussed this thief's action in another thread:
>>
>> [3] 
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/
>>
>> I have archived these documents here:
>>
>> [1] http://archive.is/9oN1A
>> [2] http://archive.is/Q36G5
>> [3] http://archive.is/aSFUg
>>
>> The comment in question refers to this GitHub issue, also archived:
>>
>> [4] https://github.com/avelino/awesome-go/pull/1137
>> [4] http://archive.is/7xgc7
>>
>> Now take a look at what I said, and what Sarah Adams in her
>> infinite arrogance suggests I should have said:
>>
>> Aram: Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what
>>  was going on
>>
>> Sarah: I couldn't understand what was going on
>>
>> If you compare these two phrases: you can see that the problem Sarah
>> Adams has is with "their English was so bad".
>>
>> In other words, Sarah's problem is with speaking the objective
>> *TRUTH*.
>>
>> Whether someone speaks good or bad English is an objective fact
>> easily determined by anyone who speaks English at some level of
>> proficiency. I encourage all English speakers to take a look at [4]
>> and do an individual assessment of the level of proficiency in English
>> those sock puppets possess.
>>
>> I will not be policed around for telling the *TRUTH*. I will not
>> be silenced into political compliance. I will not tolerate other
>> people who tell me what is acceptable to say, especially when these
>> people only want to hide the *OBJECTIVE TRUTH*.
>>
>> The comment is not respectful
>>
>> Damn right it wasn't. You or your organization has no authority
>> mandating how respectful my speech is. What level of arrogance.
>>
>> However, it was not disrespectful. It was an objective assessment
>> of an *infractor's* level of English competence.
>>
>> I owe nobody respect. Certainly not someone who breaks the law and
>> steals other people's intellectual property. Respect is earned.
>>
>> and would have been more productive just as
>>
>> Ah, yes, here you can see in action the new-age practice of corporate
>> double speak applied to open source projects. This is not Google.
>> You are not fooling me or anyone else who still has a grain of
>> independent thought left.
>>
>> This is a pathetic and disgusting attempt of silencing independent
>> contributors who still refuse to kneel after your coup d'état in
>> which you managed to replace the Go technical governance with a
>> 

Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Daniel Skinner]

The email was presumptuous, so as to describe "more productive", and
threatening with "consider this a warning". It also felt cold and
unwelcoming like a bot generated it.

I do not advocate this CoC at all, but at the very least the email could
have stuck to what was known to start a private conversation and left it at
that, "Hey, someone reached out to us because they felt threatened by your
comment here [...]" and show an interest in the details beyond a passing
glance at the allegedly offensive statement.

If genuine concern can't be established (doubly hard given this is all done
in text), then I imagine the "kangaroo court" calling will only get worse.

On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 3:32 PM Andrew Gerrand  wrote:

>
> On 28 October 2016 at 03:53, mjy  wrote:
>
> It's partly a cultural thing, I suppose. Some people consider the e-mail
> bland, others (like me) threatening. Someone should educate the CoC crew
> about these cultural, perhaps personality differences so they can improve
> their tone to avoid unnecessary escalation.
>
>
> We are definitely still learning, and I think it's clear that we missed
> the mark communicating with Aram here. It was not, and would never be, our
> intention to come across as threatening or harsh. I am dismayed by how this
> turned out. This will certainly inform our actions in the future.
>
> Andrew
>
> --
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> "golang-nuts" group.
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> email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[mjy]

Am Donnerstag, 27. Oktober 2016 18:11:16 UTC+2 schrieb Nate Finch:
>
> It seems like most of the problem with this whole situation comes from the 
> wording of the "warning"  
>
> Please consider this a warning from the Code of Conduct working group.
>>
>
>  "consider this a warning" can be interpreted as a threat (though the 
> "Please" in front should soften it somewhat).  I don't think it was 
> intended as such, but I think it's clear some people do read it that way. 
>  Perhaps just a rewording would prevent such a reaction in the future.
>

It's partly a cultural thing, I suppose. Some people consider the e-mail 
bland, others (like me) threatening. Someone should educate the CoC crew 
about these cultural, perhaps personality differences so they can improve 
their tone to avoid unnecessary escalation.


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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Henrik Johansson]

To me the wording with a warning in it sounds extremely harsh. Adding any
number of pleases only makes it worse. I still think this should not have
been acted upon at all. What sort of de facto empirical outcome has there
been previously? Are there any previous incidents that have not gone
public?

On Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 18:53 mjy  wrote:

> Am Donnerstag, 27. Oktober 2016 18:11:16 UTC+2 schrieb Nate Finch:
>
> It seems like most of the problem with this whole situation comes from the
> wording of the "warning"
>
> Please consider this a warning from the Code of Conduct working group.
>
>
>  "consider this a warning" can be interpreted as a threat (though the
> "Please" in front should soften it somewhat).  I don't think it was
> intended as such, but I think it's clear some people do read it that way.
> Perhaps just a rewording would prevent such a reaction in the future.
>
>
> It's partly a cultural thing, I suppose. Some people consider the e-mail
> bland, others (like me) threatening. Someone should educate the CoC crew
> about these cultural, perhaps personality differences so they can improve
> their tone to avoid unnecessary escalation.
>
>
> --
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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Jordan Krage]

| I can vouch for this. It's especially embarrassing when you first mention 
it to them privately and resolve the issue, and then go ahead and mention 
it in the meeting anyway, or use it as an excuse for new policies set in 
that meeting. There is one particular space I left because of this, but I 
will not elaborate.

This analogy is not appropriate.

Consider if someone wrote something on a whiteboard, or hung something in 
their office, which violated the code of conduct.  Would you speak to them 
privately, but leave it up for everyone to see, without ever addressing it 
publicly?  To outside observers, that behavior would appear to be 
acceptable.  There is no way for them to understand that a violation 
occurred.

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 11:07:50 AM UTC-5, Pietro Gagliardi 
(andlabs) wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 27, 2016, at 11:49 AM, Andrew Gerrand  > wrote:
>
> I have done this before, and it has not gone well. People feel humiliated 
> when called out publicly. 
>
> Imagine this happened in a workplace. Do you bring it up at the team 
> meeting? Or take them aside and mention it to them in private?
>
> I can vouch for this. It's especially embarrassing when you first mention 
> it to them privately and resolve the issue, and then go ahead and mention 
> it in the meeting anyway, or use it as an excuse for new policies set in 
> that meeting. There is one particular space I left because of this, but I 
> will not elaborate.
>
>
> On Oct 27, 2016, at 11:44 AM, Nigel Vickers  > wrote:
>
> Hallo Aram, 
> I have checked both of the Projects and the issue lists and as far as I 
> can see you have not been involved in previous discussions or involved in 
> either of the projects involved. I have checked the previous reddit and 
> parts of the discussion which are indeed not intelligible. As such this was 
> a initial post in the matter by you , it constitutes a request for 
>  information with the reason why. Can you confirm my assesment?
>
> Nigel Vickers
>
> You seem to be confused about Aram's affiliations: he is not a worker on 
> Iris or any of the projects it stole from; he is a member of the Go team 
> itself (or if that is not true, then he is one of its top contributors), 
> and his most known contribution was the Solaris port.
>
>
> On Oct 27, 2016, at 11:52 AM, Russ Cox  
> wrote:
>
> I am sending this message to golang-nuts bcc golang-dev in an attempt to 
> unify the two discussions into one discussion in one place. I picked 
> golang-nuts because that is roughly a superset of golang-dev.
>
> Did golang-dev stop sending emails? I haven't received anything since 
> October 16. Or should I contact Google Groups support and/or my email 
> provider?
>

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[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Nate Finch]

It seems like most of the problem with this whole situation comes from the 
wording of the "warning"  

Please consider this a warning from the Code of Conduct working group.
>

 "consider this a warning" can be interpreted as a threat (though the 
"Please" in front should soften it somewhat).  I don't think it was 
intended as such, but I think it's clear some people do read it that way. 
 Perhaps just a rewording would prevent such a reaction in the future.

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Jordan Krage]

| People feel humiliated when called out publicly. 
The terminology 'called out' is a mischaracterization of what I am 
suggesting.

| Imagine this happened in a workplace. Do you bring it up at the team 
meeting? Or take them aside and mention it to them in private?
IMHO this is not an appropriate analogy.

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 10:49:46 AM UTC-5, Andrew Gerrand wrote:
>
>
>
> On 28 October 2016 at 02:24, Jordan Krage  
> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps I was too broad in saying 'entirely public and transparent'.  I 
>> did not mean to suggest that *reporters* should be made public.
>>
>> That being said, I don't agree that a moderator post pointing out 
>> violations is a form of shaming (if that is what you meant).  Additionally, 
>> it communicates the point to everyone at once, rather than addressing 
>> individuals on a case by case basis.
>>
>
> I have done this before, and it has not gone well. People feel humiliated 
> when called out publicly. 
>
> Imagine this happened in a workplace. Do you bring it up at the team 
> meeting? Or take them aside and mention it to them in private?
>
> I think some discretion is a matter of courtesy and respect to all 
> involved.
>
> Andrew
>
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Andrew Gerrand]

On 28 October 2016 at 02:24, Jordan Krage  wrote:

> Perhaps I was too broad in saying 'entirely public and transparent'.  I
> did not mean to suggest that *reporters* should be made public.
>
> That being said, I don't agree that a moderator post pointing out
> violations is a form of shaming (if that is what you meant).  Additionally,
> it communicates the point to everyone at once, rather than addressing
> individuals on a case by case basis.
>

I have done this before, and it has not gone well. People feel humiliated
when called out publicly.

Imagine this happened in a workplace. Do you bring it up at the team
meeting? Or take them aside and mention it to them in private?

I think some discretion is a matter of courtesy and respect to all involved.

Andrew

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[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Nigel Vickers]

Hallo Aram, 
I have checked both of the Projects and the issue lists and as far as I can 
see you have not been involved in previous discussions or involved in 
either of the projects involved. I have checked the previous reddit and 
parts of the discussion which are indeed not intelligible. As such this was 
a initial post in the matter by you , it constitutes a request for 
 information with the reason why. Can you confirm my assesment?

Nigel Vickers

On Thursday, 27 October 2016 15:19:56 UTC+2, Nigel Vickers wrote:
>
> Hallo Aram,
>
> If this did happen as you describe then you have every right to be very 
> angry. I also have grave reservations about "Codes of Conduct"  and the 
> "kangaroo Courts" that grow up around them.  I have tried to build a 
> picture of events using the links you have listed. I am not getting as far 
> as I would wish.  I need to ask a you few questions and would like the 
> answers to be to the list.  Would you be prepared to help me?
>
> Nigel Vickers
>
> On Thursday, 27 October 2016 13:36:23 UTC+2, Aram Hăvărneanu wrote:
>>
>> I have received a very insulting and distressing e-mail from Sarah
>> Adams, who claims to represent the The Go Code of Conduct Team, an
>> illicit bully organization who claims authority about what Go
>> contributors think and say outside the Go mailing lists. I do not
>> recognize this group's legitimacy in these matters.
>>
>>
>>

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[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Sarah Adams]

I apologize for making you feel threatened or insulted in any way.
I do want to emphasize the last line of the email we sent, which does not 
appear in your post here:

  Please feel free to reach out if you have any questions or concerns.

We welcome pushback on any decision or response. We are open to having a 
dialogue about any issue.
I hope that in the future, you will feel comfortable enough to email us 
directly.

Sarah

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 4:36:23 AM UTC-7, Aram Hăvărneanu wrote:
>
> I have received a very insulting and distressing e-mail from Sarah
> Adams, who claims to represent the The Go Code of Conduct Team, an
> illicit bully organization who claims authority about what Go
> contributors think and say outside the Go mailing lists. I do not
> recognize this group's legitimacy in these matters.
>
> The e-mail says:
>
> We received a report about your comment on this thread
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/d8wdynd
> :
> "Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what was
> going on".
>
> This comment goes against our community Code of Conduct,
> https://golang.org/conduct. The comment is not respectful,
> and would have been more productive just as, "I couldn't
> understand what was going on".
>
> Please consider this a warning from the Code of Conduct
> working group.
>
> Some more context is necessary. There is someone in the Go community
> who literally steals other people's code, receives money for it,
> and actively tries to covers his tracks.
>
> A person named Florin Pățan provided an overview:
>
> [1] 
> http://www.florinpatan.ro/2016/10/why-you-should-not-use-iris-for-your-go.html
>
> which has been discussed on reddit:
>
> [2] 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57tmp1/why_you_should_not_use_iris_for_your_go_projects
> .
>
> Reddit also discussed this thief's action in another thread:
>
> [3] 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/
>
> I have archived these documents here:
>
> [1] http://archive.is/9oN1A
> [2] http://archive.is/Q36G5
> [3] http://archive.is/aSFUg
>
> The comment in question refers to this GitHub issue, also archived:
>
> [4] https://github.com/avelino/awesome-go/pull/1137
> [4] http://archive.is/7xgc7
>
> Now take a look at what I said, and what Sarah Adams in her
> infinite arrogance suggests I should have said:
>
> Aram: Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what
>  was going on
>
> Sarah: I couldn't understand what was going on
>
> If you compare these two phrases: you can see that the problem Sarah
> Adams has is with "their English was so bad".
>
> In other words, Sarah's problem is with speaking the objective
> *TRUTH*.
>
> Whether someone speaks good or bad English is an objective fact
> easily determined by anyone who speaks English at some level of
> proficiency. I encourage all English speakers to take a look at [4]
> and do an individual assessment of the level of proficiency in English
> those sock puppets possess.
>
> I will not be policed around for telling the *TRUTH*. I will not
> be silenced into political compliance. I will not tolerate other
> people who tell me what is acceptable to say, especially when these
> people only want to hide the *OBJECTIVE TRUTH*.
>
> The comment is not respectful
>
> Damn right it wasn't. You or your organization has no authority
> mandating how respectful my speech is. What level of arrogance.
>
> However, it was not disrespectful. It was an objective assessment
> of an *infractor's* level of English competence.
>
> I owe nobody respect. Certainly not someone who breaks the law and
> steals other people's intellectual property. Respect is earned.
>
> and would have been more productive just as
>
> Ah, yes, here you can see in action the new-age practice of corporate
> double speak applied to open source projects. This is not Google.
> You are not fooling me or anyone else who still has a grain of
> independent thought left.
>
> This is a pathetic and disgusting attempt of silencing independent
> contributors who still refuse to kneel after your coup d'état in
> which you managed to replace the Go technical governance with a
> thought police political organization vassal to Google.
>
> In some sense, you have succeeded. I will never yield to you, you
> can never silence me, but you certainly made me realise that my
> association with the Go project is a mistake and a liability. I do
> not want to be associated with your organization, even accidentally.
> When I contribute to Go, I only make you people stronger. In fact,
> this is your modus operandi; you rely on people who do the actual
> technical work (either as part of the Go team, or as contributors)
> in order to gain more support for your cause. To gain legitimacy.
> To claim authority.
>
> I cannot remove the code I have contributed to the Go project over
> the years, but I can certainly stop contributing as an 

[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[charraster]

code of conduct workers should work on adding generics to compilers


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[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Nigel Vickers]

Hallo Nate,

On Thursday, 27 October 2016 17:10:57 UTC+2, Nate Finch wrote:
>
> We should know what is a violation by reading the code of conduct.  Making 
> the process public would make it a way to shame people, and also might 
> discourage people from reporting for fear of reprisal.  The intent is to 
> inform people when they have said something that others find insulting or 
> unwelcoming, so that they may find nicer ways to express themselves.
>

Sorry, Secret processes have no place in an Open Source project.   

>
> On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 10:29:47 AM UTC-4, Jordan Krage wrote:
>>
>> At the very least, this kind of CoC 'enforcement' should be entirely 
>> public and transparent.  How are others supposed to learn what is 
>> considered a violation, when violators are only contacted privately by 
>> email?
>>
>

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[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Jordan Krage]

To expand on "it communicates the point to everyone at once": notice that 
the original reddit post in question is completely absent of any suggestion 
of CoC violation.  Nobody stumbling into that thread and reading that 
comment would be aware that it was considered a violation.
https://np.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/d8wdynd/

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 10:24:26 AM UTC-5, Jordan Krage wrote:
>
> Perhaps I was too broad in saying 'entirely public and transparent'.  I 
> did not mean to suggest that *reporters* should be made public.
>
> That being said, I don't agree that a moderator post pointing out 
> violations is a form of shaming (if that is what you meant).  Additionally, 
> it communicates the point to everyone at once, rather than addressing 
> individuals on a case by case basis.
>
> | We should know what is a violation by reading the code of conduct.
> *Should*? Ok. What about when we don't? It sounds like you are working 
> from an assumption that the CoC is infallible and completely unambiguous. 
>  I agree that is something to strive for.  We must be allowed to have 
> public discourse regarding it's interpretation. *Especially* when dealing 
> with non-native English speakers.
>
> On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 10:10:57 AM UTC-5, Nate Finch wrote:
>>
>> We should know what is a violation by reading the code of conduct. 
>>  Making the process public would make it a way to shame people, and also 
>> might discourage people from reporting for fear of reprisal.  The intent is 
>> to inform people when they have said something that others find insulting 
>> or unwelcoming, so that they may find nicer ways to express themselves.
>>
>> On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 10:29:47 AM UTC-4, Jordan Krage wrote:
>>>
>>> At the very least, this kind of CoC 'enforcement' should be entirely 
>>> public and transparent.  How are others supposed to learn what is 
>>> considered a violation, when violators are only contacted privately by 
>>> email?
>>>
>>

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Re: [go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Henrik Johansson]

I actually read through the thread and unless everyone in that thread got
the same message then I Aram should not have gotten the note.

I recognize the potential value of the CoC but it always boils down to
opinions. Imho this was a bad call. Bad calls happen and we should be able
to get past it and move on.

On Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 17:11 Nate Finch  wrote:

> We should know what is a violation by reading the code of conduct.  Making
> the process public would make it a way to shame people, and also might
> discourage people from reporting for fear of reprisal.  The intent is to
> inform people when they have said something that others find insulting or
> unwelcoming, so that they may find nicer ways to express themselves.
>
>
> On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 10:29:47 AM UTC-4, Jordan Krage wrote:
>
> At the very least, this kind of CoC 'enforcement' should be entirely
> public and transparent.  How are others supposed to learn what is
> considered a violation, when violators are only contacted privately by
> email?
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "golang-nuts" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Jordan Krage]

Perhaps I was too broad in saying 'entirely public and transparent'.  I did 
not mean to suggest that *reporters* should be made public.

That being said, I don't agree that a moderator post pointing out 
violations is a form of shaming (if that is what you meant).  Additionally, 
it communicates the point to everyone at once, rather than addressing 
individuals on a case by case basis.

| We should know what is a violation by reading the code of conduct.
*Should*? Ok. What about when we don't? It sounds like you are working from 
an assumption that the CoC is infallible and completely unambiguous.  I 
agree that is something to strive for.  We must be allowed to have public 
discourse regarding it's interpretation. *Especially* when dealing with 
non-native English speakers.

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 10:10:57 AM UTC-5, Nate Finch wrote:
>
> We should know what is a violation by reading the code of conduct.  Making 
> the process public would make it a way to shame people, and also might 
> discourage people from reporting for fear of reprisal.  The intent is to 
> inform people when they have said something that others find insulting or 
> unwelcoming, so that they may find nicer ways to express themselves.
>
> On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 10:29:47 AM UTC-4, Jordan Krage wrote:
>>
>> At the very least, this kind of CoC 'enforcement' should be entirely 
>> public and transparent.  How are others supposed to learn what is 
>> considered a violation, when violators are only contacted privately by 
>> email?
>>
>

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[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Nate Finch]

We should know what is a violation by reading the code of conduct.  Making 
the process public would make it a way to shame people, and also might 
discourage people from reporting for fear of reprisal.  The intent is to 
inform people when they have said something that others find insulting or 
unwelcoming, so that they may find nicer ways to express themselves.

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 10:29:47 AM UTC-4, Jordan Krage wrote:
>
> At the very least, this kind of CoC 'enforcement' should be entirely 
> public and transparent.  How are others supposed to learn what is 
> considered a violation, when violators are only contacted privately by 
> email?
>

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[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[prades . marq]

Frankly /r/golang is so toxic I stopped posting there, it should be either 
shut down or officially excluded from any official go forum. 

The code of conduct serves very little purpose 
given what happens there constantly, 

People like to target projects, insult their author and call them thieves 
to destroy their reputation and then complain and play the victim when they 
are being called out when caught misbehaving ? 

I say shut down /r/golang , there is very little moderation there to begin 
with.

I'm sure Sarah Adams did the best she could to de-escalate the situation 
but frankly there is nothing that can really be done due to the nature of 
reddit.

Le jeudi 27 octobre 2016 13:36:23 UTC+2, Aram Hăvărneanu a écrit :
>
> I have received a very insulting and distressing e-mail from Sarah
> Adams, who claims to represent the The Go Code of Conduct Team, an
> illicit bully organization who claims authority about what Go
> contributors think and say outside the Go mailing lists. I do not
> recognize this group's legitimacy in these matters.
>
> The e-mail says:
>
> We received a report about your comment on this thread
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/d8wdynd
> :
> "Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what was
> going on".
>
> This comment goes against our community Code of Conduct,
> https://golang.org/conduct. The comment is not respectful,
> and would have been more productive just as, "I couldn't
> understand what was going on".
>
> Please consider this a warning from the Code of Conduct
> working group.
>
> Some more context is necessary. There is someone in the Go community
> who literally steals other people's code, receives money for it,
> and actively tries to covers his tracks.
>
> A person named Florin Pățan provided an overview:
>
> [1] 
> http://www.florinpatan.ro/2016/10/why-you-should-not-use-iris-for-your-go.html
>
> which has been discussed on reddit:
>
> [2] 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57tmp1/why_you_should_not_use_iris_for_your_go_projects
> .
>
> Reddit also discussed this thief's action in another thread:
>
> [3] 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/
>
> I have archived these documents here:
>
> [1] http://archive.is/9oN1A
> [2] http://archive.is/Q36G5
> [3] http://archive.is/aSFUg
>
> The comment in question refers to this GitHub issue, also archived:
>
> [4] https://github.com/avelino/awesome-go/pull/1137
> [4] http://archive.is/7xgc7
>
> Now take a look at what I said, and what Sarah Adams in her
> infinite arrogance suggests I should have said:
>
> Aram: Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what
>  was going on
>
> Sarah: I couldn't understand what was going on
>
> If you compare these two phrases: you can see that the problem Sarah
> Adams has is with "their English was so bad".
>
> In other words, Sarah's problem is with speaking the objective
> *TRUTH*.
>
> Whether someone speaks good or bad English is an objective fact
> easily determined by anyone who speaks English at some level of
> proficiency. I encourage all English speakers to take a look at [4]
> and do an individual assessment of the level of proficiency in English
> those sock puppets possess.
>
> I will not be policed around for telling the *TRUTH*. I will not
> be silenced into political compliance. I will not tolerate other
> people who tell me what is acceptable to say, especially when these
> people only want to hide the *OBJECTIVE TRUTH*.
>
> The comment is not respectful
>
> Damn right it wasn't. You or your organization has no authority
> mandating how respectful my speech is. What level of arrogance.
>
> However, it was not disrespectful. It was an objective assessment
> of an *infractor's* level of English competence.
>
> I owe nobody respect. Certainly not someone who breaks the law and
> steals other people's intellectual property. Respect is earned.
>
> and would have been more productive just as
>
> Ah, yes, here you can see in action the new-age practice of corporate
> double speak applied to open source projects. This is not Google.
> You are not fooling me or anyone else who still has a grain of
> independent thought left.
>
> This is a pathetic and disgusting attempt of silencing independent
> contributors who still refuse to kneel after your coup d'état in
> which you managed to replace the Go technical governance with a
> thought police political organization vassal to Google.
>
> In some sense, you have succeeded. I will never yield to you, you
> can never silence me, but you certainly made me realise that my
> association with the Go project is a mistake and a liability. I do
> not want to be associated with your organization, even accidentally.
> When I contribute to Go, I only make you people stronger. In fact,
> this is your modus operandi; you rely on people who do the actual
> technical work (either as part of the Go team, or as 

[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Jordan Krage]

At the very least, this kind of CoC 'enforcement' should be entirely public 
and transparent.  How are others supposed to learn what is considered a 
violation, when violators are only contacted privately by email?

On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 6:36:23 AM UTC-5, Aram Hăvărneanu wrote:
>
> I have received a very insulting and distressing e-mail from Sarah
> Adams, who claims to represent the The Go Code of Conduct Team, an
> illicit bully organization who claims authority about what Go
> contributors think and say outside the Go mailing lists. I do not
> recognize this group's legitimacy in these matters.
>
> The e-mail says:
>
> We received a report about your comment on this thread
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/d8wdynd
> :
> "Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what was
> going on".
>
> This comment goes against our community Code of Conduct,
> https://golang.org/conduct. The comment is not respectful,
> and would have been more productive just as, "I couldn't
> understand what was going on".
>
> Please consider this a warning from the Code of Conduct
> working group.
>
> Some more context is necessary. There is someone in the Go community
> who literally steals other people's code, receives money for it,
> and actively tries to covers his tracks.
>
> A person named Florin Pățan provided an overview:
>
> [1] 
> http://www.florinpatan.ro/2016/10/why-you-should-not-use-iris-for-your-go.html
>
> which has been discussed on reddit:
>
> [2] 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57tmp1/why_you_should_not_use_iris_for_your_go_projects
> .
>
> Reddit also discussed this thief's action in another thread:
>
> [3] 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/57w79c/why_you_really_should_stop_using_iris/
>
> I have archived these documents here:
>
> [1] http://archive.is/9oN1A
> [2] http://archive.is/Q36G5
> [3] http://archive.is/aSFUg
>
> The comment in question refers to this GitHub issue, also archived:
>
> [4] https://github.com/avelino/awesome-go/pull/1137
> [4] http://archive.is/7xgc7
>
> Now take a look at what I said, and what Sarah Adams in her
> infinite arrogance suggests I should have said:
>
> Aram: Their English was so bad I couldn't understand what
>  was going on
>
> Sarah: I couldn't understand what was going on
>
> If you compare these two phrases: you can see that the problem Sarah
> Adams has is with "their English was so bad".
>
> In other words, Sarah's problem is with speaking the objective
> *TRUTH*.
>
> Whether someone speaks good or bad English is an objective fact
> easily determined by anyone who speaks English at some level of
> proficiency. I encourage all English speakers to take a look at [4]
> and do an individual assessment of the level of proficiency in English
> those sock puppets possess.
>
> I will not be policed around for telling the *TRUTH*. I will not
> be silenced into political compliance. I will not tolerate other
> people who tell me what is acceptable to say, especially when these
> people only want to hide the *OBJECTIVE TRUTH*.
>
> The comment is not respectful
>
> Damn right it wasn't. You or your organization has no authority
> mandating how respectful my speech is. What level of arrogance.
>
> However, it was not disrespectful. It was an objective assessment
> of an *infractor's* level of English competence.
>
> I owe nobody respect. Certainly not someone who breaks the law and
> steals other people's intellectual property. Respect is earned.
>
> and would have been more productive just as
>
> Ah, yes, here you can see in action the new-age practice of corporate
> double speak applied to open source projects. This is not Google.
> You are not fooling me or anyone else who still has a grain of
> independent thought left.
>
> This is a pathetic and disgusting attempt of silencing independent
> contributors who still refuse to kneel after your coup d'état in
> which you managed to replace the Go technical governance with a
> thought police political organization vassal to Google.
>
> In some sense, you have succeeded. I will never yield to you, you
> can never silence me, but you certainly made me realise that my
> association with the Go project is a mistake and a liability. I do
> not want to be associated with your organization, even accidentally.
> When I contribute to Go, I only make you people stronger. In fact,
> this is your modus operandi; you rely on people who do the actual
> technical work (either as part of the Go team, or as contributors)
> in order to gain more support for your cause. To gain legitimacy.
> To claim authority.
>
> I cannot remove the code I have contributed to the Go project over
> the years, but I can certainly stop contributing as an individual
> in the future. I will make sure, best of my ability, that any
> competent individual or organization who is evaluating Go is made
> aware of who is actually pulling the strings here, and what they
> are getting 

[go-nuts] Re: Stalking people online for thought crimes! This is what the Go project has succumbed to!

[Nigel Vickers]

Hallo Aram,

If this did happen as you describe then you have every right to be very 
angry. I also have grave reservations about "Codes of Conduct"  and the 
"kangaroo Courts" that grow up around them.  I have tried to build a 
picture of events using the links you have listed. I am not getting as far 
as I would wish.  I need to ask a you few questions and would like the 
answers to be to the list.  Would you be prepared to help me?

Nigel Vickers

On Thursday, 27 October 2016 13:36:23 UTC+2, Aram Hăvărneanu wrote:
>
> I have received a very insulting and distressing e-mail from Sarah
> Adams, who claims to represent the The Go Code of Conduct Team, an
> illicit bully organization who claims authority about what Go
> contributors think and say outside the Go mailing lists. I do not
> recognize this group's legitimacy in these matters.
>
>
>

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