Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
On Oct 2, 2008, at 6:12 PM, Chris Laning wrote: I also have a friend who finds that a normal 16th-century corset and fitted gown cause too much of the weight of the skirt to be carried by her hips and lower back, which she finds very painful. She does much better with something where most of the weight of the dress hangs from the shoulders (loose gowns, for instance, although she can also wear a fitted gown with a few bones but not a full corset). In her case, the medical problem is nerve damage. If there's nerve damage, anything corset-like might end up being uncomfortable, but in general, a well-fitted 16th-century corset and farthingale take the pressure *off* of the lower back and hips. That is, if you do three things: make the corset with straps, make sure the corset fits correctly (especially that it isn't too long), and tie the farthingale to the corset. I don't have any medical issues, but I did have problems with lower back pain with my Elizabethans until I started tying my farthingale to my corset. Once you do that, the pressure of the skirts should be distributed up the torso and through the shoulders rather than falling on the hips. The issue with corsets being cut too long is one that I find frequently, especially with larger figures. People gain weight differently, but for some, the apparent waistline drops as they get larger, and they tend to want the waistline of their corset to be where they wear the waistline of their clothing. This generally results in the waistline of the corset being too low--sometimes so low that it's sitting on the hipbones and throwing the whole fit off as well as causing lower back issues. For corsetry in general, the location of the waist should be judged by finding the bottom of the ribs and the top of the hipbones and aiming midway in between. On larger figures, this can result in an uncomfortable bulge of flesh below the bottom of the corset, and in that case try the styles that have tabs on the bottom and continue the boning of the body of the corset to the bottom of the tabs. That will dissipate the compression of the corset comfortably rather than creating a hard line that cuts into the midsection. Of course, if you're doing the longer 19th-century corsets, you don't have worry about it as long as you get the waistline in the right place. Melanie Schuessler (who spent four years draping for an opera company) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
Good Day, Please try using a cotton camisole under the corset and per Renaissance Corp, larger ladies will roll small tea towels (white only it seems) and place under the breasts but I find this bothersome and they can slip.. Personally, I hate trying to be a size 4-6 when I am a size 20, and my corsets do not close all the way in back...I like to breath too much. No one sees them and the bodice or surcoats cover the backs anyway and on hotter days that helps stay a wee bit cooler. Ladies , we no longer need to kill ourselves. By the end of the day it is nice to get out of a corset but I find my back hurts less from wearing one and have thought on several days why not wear one all the time...just not so tight one can not breath. Hope my wee input helps on this issue... Ladye Paige in Virginia ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
Hello, I too have that tummy area problem but have used a tabbed corset for many years but never lace it all the way up the back. Tabs come over the hip area slightly and when I am being laced, I ask someone to start at waist not bottom of corset, and I .never close the corset all the way ( I like to breath ) unless some deft gentleman who my be assisting with the chore manages to lace it tighter than usual and gets the back closer together...you might find your tummy area won't poof so much when sitting and the more open back of the corset lets you back stay cooler and who is seeing it...only you know with areas such as VA, MD and PA, high humidity is quite an issue and then so is Wisconsin area...we just want to look the part...we are not really needing to be size 4-5 waists and 5' frames (unless that is what you are)..lets not forget that people have changed in our frame build since the 1500-1600's. By the way, I wear this same corset for Renn Clothing, Victorian and now my Colonial. My corset fits nicely and why fool with another style that might not be as comfortable...The corset is really intended to give a smooth appearance is it not? Enough input from a size 20, nearing 60's lady in Va. Ladye Paige ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
We have a member of our guilde at Bristol who has cardiac issues and is unable to wear anything too binding. Even a well-fitted corset would cause problems for her. Rebecca Schmitt aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence, Bristol Renn Faire * ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
Which makes me curious. What actual medical issues have people encountered that really _do_ mean someone can't wear a corset? I'm sure it does happen -- and it seems to me that having some idea of what really are the issues that cause problems might help dressmakers decide whether to (1) attempt to exercise more tactful persuasion, (2) devise some sort of work-around, or (3) do the best they can to make a nice looking garment without corsetry. Abdominal issues too. The corset may be on the torso but, especially if there is much of a point, it can effect lower issues as well. Catherine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
It sounds like my solution wouldn't help in this particular situation, but what I do when underwire bras become intolerable due to MS-related spasticity (all my muscles tighten up so that any pressure on them is painful) is wear a hip-length BSFG (bust supporting fitted gown). Best support ever, and if made with larger or looser armholes and non-bulky seam finishes there's just nothing to dig in anywhere. It doesn't need to be tight below the underbust area, so it might work well with gastric problems--it wouldn't replace the function of a pair of stays for an 18thC gown, though! -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
Chris Laning wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, sorry to be Devil's advocate; I know some people claim a medical problem when they just don't want to wear a certain thing, and it's not up to someone else to insist they can. But what about people who can't take the pressure of stays / corset? What are they to do? Which makes me curious. What actual medical issues have people encountered that really _do_ mean someone can't wear a corset? I'm sure it does happen Offhand, I can think of two issues where any kind of corsetry or stiffening can be a problem. Others? Well, right now I am getting over a shoulder problem. I have almost all of my mobility back but I am still fighting some inflammation even though I rarely have anything but minor pain. The other day I put on a lightly boned 1500 Italian dress to have a friend mark the hem for me and it only took about 2 minutes after it was laced up for me to start chanting take this off, get it off me now!. This is one of my favorite dresses (remodeled one more time so needed re-hemming) and it has always been comfortable before. I suspect that the stiffening in the bodice combined with the shoulder straps was enough to put my shoulder into an uncomfortable spot. It has minimal stiffening, just in the center front and the sides. I used multiple rows of that skinny plastic boning and a layer of canvas. I would not have expected it to be so uncomfortable. I also have a dim memory of finding boned bodices uncomfortable while recovering from whiplash. liz young ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
You folks don't have the fat tummy issue to deal with when riding a horse SideSaddle. My regular period corset makes me look very good, but where do I put all the fat when I have to lift my right leg up and over the horse, to sit in my sidesaddle? There is no where for it all to go! Still trying to get a corset fit for riding. Susan On Oct 3, 08, at 8:51 AM, Catherine Kinsey wrote: Which makes me curious. What actual medical issues have people encountered that really _do_ mean someone can't wear a corset? I'm sure it does happen -- and it seems to me that having some idea of what really are the issues that cause problems might help dressmakers decide whether to (1) attempt to exercise more tactful persuasion, (2) devise some sort of work-around, or (3) do the best they can to make a nice looking garment without corsetry. Abdominal issues too. The corset may be on the torso but, especially if there is much of a point, it can effect lower issues as well. Catherine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
I have had 5 car accident and a violent assault in my life,,,all damaging my back and neck to some degree. I also manage to be disproprotionately busty...(40 H on a 6ft 280lb frame) Even a bad corset fit is tolerable for a few hours compared to a moredrately bad fit..Guess Im just lucky that way. Bambi (To be named ater) TBNL I am made for great things by GOD and walk with Pride Walladah bint al Mustakfi c 1100ad see me dance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtOoXtMs0 --- On Thu, 10/2/08, Ailith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Ailith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples) To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 6:39 PM I can no longer wear my beloved Italian gowns because I simply can't bear the constriction of a corset. I have nerve damage due to Guillain-Barre Syndrome. Just wearing a bra is torturous for me. :-( I'd give a lot to be able to wear my gowns again. Kate Which makes me curious. What actual medical issues have people encountered that really _do_ mean someone can't wear a corset? I'm sure it does happen -- and it seems to me that having some idea of what really are the issues that cause problems might help dressmakers decide whether to (1) attempt to exercise more tactful persuasion, (2) devise some sort of work-around, or (3) do the best they can to make a nice looking garment without corsetry. Offhand, I can think of two issues where any kind of corsetry or stiffening can be a problem. One is for people in wheelchairs: if they are to wear a corset at all, it must need to be designed for sitting rather than standing, and I can imagine that for someone whow has limited mobility anyway, not being able to bend freely at the waist could make some necessary movements very difficult. I also have a friend who finds that a normal 16th-century corset and fitted gown cause too much of the weight of the skirt to be carried by her hips and lower back, which she finds very painful. She does much better with something where most of the weight of the dress hangs from the shoulders (loose gowns, for instance, although she can also wear a fitted gown with a few bones but not a full corset). In her case, the medical problem is nerve damage. Others? 0 Chris Laning | [EMAIL PROTECTED] + Davis, California http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
Which makes me curious. What actual medical issues have people encountered that really _do_ mean someone can't wear a corset? I'm sure it does happen -- and it seems to me that having some idea of what really are the issues that cause problems might help dressmakers decide whether to (1) attempt to exercise more tactful persuasion, (2) devise some sort of work-around, or (3) do the best they can to make a nice looking garment without corsetry. I have an auto immune disease. I have toxic drugs to deal with it, both cause problems Sorry easier than starting off with Rheumatoid Arthritis as there are too many assumptions made about it;) I have to deal with pain and joint degradation every day but also extreme fatigue and a body that simply cannot handle wearing the frocks for long periods any more. Corsets are draining. I make mine well, it's nothing to do with that. I just find after a few hours I start to feel claustrophobic and need to get into something lighter/ looser. At events this is usually just put up with but I'm starting to find my tolerance levels dropping. I had to leave an event a few weeks back because I was about to have some sort of physical break down. That was an extreme but what people assume about my disease is really not everything that goes on. Oh yeah and I do have digestive issues from 7+ years of daily prednisone and anti-inflammatory use so anything tight/rigid around my waist causes other issues. Most of the time I do stick it out, but I'm looking at having to change how I do things. Michaela de Bruce http://glittersweet.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, sorry to be Devil's advocate; I know some people claim a medical problem when they just don't want to wear a certain thing, and it's not up to someone else to insist they can. But what about people who can't take the pressure of stays / corset? What are they to do? Which makes me curious. What actual medical issues have people encountered that really _do_ mean someone can't wear a corset? I'm sure it does happen -- and it seems to me that having some idea of what really are the issues that cause problems might help dressmakers decide whether to (1) attempt to exercise more tactful persuasion, (2) devise some sort of work-around, or (3) do the best they can to make a nice looking garment without corsetry. Offhand, I can think of two issues where any kind of corsetry or stiffening can be a problem. One is for people in wheelchairs: if they are to wear a corset at all, it must need to be designed for sitting rather than standing, and I can imagine that for someone whow has limited mobility anyway, not being able to bend freely at the waist could make some necessary movements very difficult. I also have a friend who finds that a normal 16th-century corset and fitted gown cause too much of the weight of the skirt to be carried by her hips and lower back, which she finds very painful. She does much better with something where most of the weight of the dress hangs from the shoulders (loose gowns, for instance, although she can also wear a fitted gown with a few bones but not a full corset). In her case, the medical problem is nerve damage. Others? 0 Chris Laning | [EMAIL PROTECTED] + Davis, California http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
At 23:12 02/10/2008, you wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, sorry to be Devil's advocate; I know some people claim a medical problem when they just don't want to wear a certain thing, and it's not up to someone else to insist they can. But what about people who can't take the pressure of stays / corset? What are they to do? Which makes me curious. What actual medical issues have people encountered that really _do_ mean someone can't wear a corset? I'm sure it does happen -- and it seems to me that having some idea of what really are the issues that cause problems might help dressmakers decide whether to (1) attempt to exercise more tactful persuasion, (2) devise some sort of work-around, or (3) do the best they can to make a nice looking garment without corsetry. Offhand, I can think of two issues where any kind of corsetry or stiffening can be a problem. One is for people in wheelchairs: if they are to wear a corset at all, it must need to be designed for sitting rather than standing, and I can imagine that for someone whow has limited mobility anyway, not being able to bend freely at the waist could make some necessary movements very difficult. I also have a friend who finds that a normal 16th-century corset and fitted gown cause too much of the weight of the skirt to be carried by her hips and lower back, which she finds very painful. She does much better with something where most of the weight of the dress hangs from the shoulders (loose gowns, for instance, although she can also wear a fitted gown with a few bones but not a full corset). In her case, the medical problem is nerve damage. Others? My friend had an operation for lung cancer, which meant access from her back through the ribs, and cannot bear to be restricted. Possibly people who have had similar operations, maybe for breast cancer or similar? Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
Chris wrote: Which makes me curious. What actual medical issues have people encountered that really _do_ mean someone can't wear a corset? I'm sure it does happen -- and it seems to me that having some idea of what really are the issues that cause problems might help dressmakers decide whether to (1) attempt to exercise more tactful persuasion, (2) devise some sort of work-around, or (3) do the best they can to make a nice looking garment without corsetry. While I haven't encountered it in making something, I have heard of problems with fibromyalgia (if I spelled that right!) and similar pain problems. Torso surgery or injury that, even after healing, can leave a person with sensitive areas. And, of course, people who wish to participate in events while in the healing process. There were things in various eras for people to wear while injured, aged, working, or any other reason where a restrictive high-fashion would not do. What are the acceptable compromises as far as who the person wants to portray? -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
Which makes me curious. What actual medical issues have people encountered that really _do_ mean someone can't wear a corset? I'm sure it does happen -- and it seems to me that having some idea of what really are the issues that cause problems might help dressmakers decide whether to (1) attempt to exercise more tactful persuasion, (2) devise some sort of work-around, or (3) do the best they can to make a nice looking garment without corsetry. the first thing I thought of was a mastectomy. might be painful, and could be a problem aesthetically with some designs, depending on how low cut the garments are. . . denise, with an unreliable shift key ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
I can no longer wear my beloved Italian gowns because I simply can't bear the constriction of a corset. I have nerve damage due to Guillain-Barre Syndrome. Just wearing a bra is torturous for me. :-( I'd give a lot to be able to wear my gowns again. Kate Which makes me curious. What actual medical issues have people encountered that really _do_ mean someone can't wear a corset? I'm sure it does happen -- and it seems to me that having some idea of what really are the issues that cause problems might help dressmakers decide whether to (1) attempt to exercise more tactful persuasion, (2) devise some sort of work-around, or (3) do the best they can to make a nice looking garment without corsetry. Offhand, I can think of two issues where any kind of corsetry or stiffening can be a problem. One is for people in wheelchairs: if they are to wear a corset at all, it must need to be designed for sitting rather than standing, and I can imagine that for someone whow has limited mobility anyway, not being able to bend freely at the waist could make some necessary movements very difficult. I also have a friend who finds that a normal 16th-century corset and fitted gown cause too much of the weight of the skirt to be carried by her hips and lower back, which she finds very painful. She does much better with something where most of the weight of the dress hangs from the shoulders (loose gowns, for instance, although she can also wear a fitted gown with a few bones but not a full corset). In her case, the medical problem is nerve damage. Others? 0 Chris Laning | [EMAIL PROTECTED] + Davis, California http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
Oh, Kate, I am so sorry! Your situation, though, also leads to another question for me: If Saragrace's client cannot wear a corset for any of these reasons, how uncomfortable is she going to be in the gown she's chosen without one? For me, the corsetry is helpful in *supporting* that kind of skirtage; without it, you've got a ton of skirt pulling on you. My main corset problems are asthma/allergies and fat. On a bad day -- humid, smoky, moldy, polleny -- it can just be one thing too many to fight against the stays to breathe. The better the stays fit the less of a problem it is. Saragrace -- I assume you have the whole, stays are not that uncomfortable, and before the 19th century tight-lacing was not the point song and dance by heart? I know some large women who surprise themselves by *liking* stays. Lauren -- Original message -- From: Ailith [EMAIL PROTECTED] I can no longer wear my beloved Italian gowns because I simply can't bear the constriction of a corset. I have nerve damage due to Guillain-Barre Syndrome. Just wearing a bra is torturous for me. :-( I'd give a lot to be able to wear my gowns again. Kate http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
Yes, I have explained that to to her. I have suggested just a firm under bodice (ala' Elenora of Toledo). We will see where that goes. She has a gastritis problem that plagues her... I really appreciate all the folks who have explained some of their issues. It really kicks me in the hiney, to remember that there are lots of legitimate reasons for wanting to dress up with some limitations... Sg From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 22:56:26 + Subject: Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples) Oh, Kate, I am so sorry! Your situation, though, also leads to another question for me: If Saragrace's client cannot wear a corset for any of these reasons, how uncomfortable is she going to be in the gown she's chosen without one? For me, the corsetry is helpful in *supporting* that kind of skirtage; without it, you've got a ton of skirt pulling on you. My main corset problems are asthma/allergies and fat. On a bad day -- humid, smoky, moldy, polleny -- it can just be one thing too many to fight against the stays to breathe. The better the stays fit the less of a problem it is. Saragrace -- I assume you have the whole, stays are not that uncomfortable, and before the 19th century tight-lacing was not the point song and dance by heart? I know some large women who surprise themselves by *liking* stays. Lauren -- Original message -- From: Ailith [EMAIL PROTECTED] I can no longer wear my beloved Italian gowns because I simply can't bear the constriction of a corset. I have nerve damage due to Guillain-Barre Syndrome. Just wearing a bra is torturous for me. :-( I'd give a lot to be able to wear my gowns again. Kate http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
While I haven't encountered it in making something, I have heard of problems with fibromyalgia (if I spelled that right!) and similar pain problems. Torso surgery or injury that, even after healing, can leave a person with sensitive areas. And, of course, people who wish to participate in events while in the healing process. snip I have fibromyalgia and arthritis, and I find that my properly fitted corsets are MUCH more comfortable that any bra. I do have days that there's too much pain to wear anything fitted, but on those days I'm usually in bed with a lot of pain medication, not trying to do anything. The trick for me is that the corset has to be short enough, and snug without being overly tight. If it's too loose, then it rubs against me and causes pain, and also allows my ribs to pop out of joint. Melusine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
Saragrace, i don't know how long she would be wearing the gown. i'm overweight and I know that without a corset, women with any flab just look worse than bad. Perhaps having very heavy interfacing and boning in the gown or, as you said, a firm underbodice (with some boning if at all possible) will help keep the beautiful, smooth line that is one of the most attractive things about the style your friend has chosen. If she'll be standing most of the time, the front could be strengthened with plastic canvas. That would bend, not push too hard yet smooth the front of the bodice nicely. Of course, if she'll be in it for long or if it's very warm in your area, the plastic canvas won't work at all. (I use it for making pill-box hats. Padded and covered with nice fabric, you'd never know what's inside - and they're practically indestructible!) Best wishes, LynnD On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Carmen Beaudry [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: While I haven't encountered it in making something, I have heard of problems with fibromyalgia (if I spelled that right!) and similar pain problems. Torso surgery or injury that, even after healing, can leave a person with sensitive areas. And, of course, people who wish to participate in events while in the healing process. snip I have fibromyalgia and arthritis, and I find that my properly fitted corsets are MUCH more comfortable that any bra. I do have days that there's too much pain to wear anything fitted, but on those days I'm usually in bed with a lot of pain medication, not trying to do anything. The trick for me is that the corset has to be short enough, and snug without being overly tight. If it's too loose, then it rubs against me and causes pain, and also allows my ribs to pop out of joint. Melusine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Corsetry issues (was Looking for bad examples)
On Oct 2, 2008, at 4:03 PM, Carmen Beaudry wrote: I have fibromyalgia and arthritis, and I find that my properly fitted corsets are MUCH more comfortable that any bra. I do have days that there's too much pain to wear anything fitted, but on those days I'm usually in bed with a lot of pain medication, not trying to do anything. I think you've hit the nail on the head here. If the corset doesn't fit, it's going to be uncomfortable. On top of that, there are many different styles of corsets and bodices. Someone who would find a wasp-waisted Victorian or Edwardian corset (which, face it, is what inexperienced folks think every corset is) very uncomfortable may be perfectly happy in a simpler Renaissance style. The Elizabethan corset is a perfect example. It doesn't cinch down the waist much, it just produces a very flat front and the illusion of a smaller waist. For larger women it often includes a little interior support pillow for the breasts to rest upon, reducing the need for compression to provide support. It doesn't have to be really tight to do its job. andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
