Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan frog closures
I always thought frog closures were a chinese invention? Learn something new everyday! Sidney On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 4:23 AM, Julie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I made a coat dress/Spanish Surcoat which has frogs up the whole front opening. I'm trying to get documentation on the use of frogs in Elizabethan England. There are a couple of pictures in Janet Arnold. Does anyone have some links to either portraits or other primary type docs showing use of frogs and/or how the specific ones shown were tied? I'm using some very clever doo dads carried by FolkWear for tying these frogs. Much easier than just on a macrame board. I can't find period pictures of exactly what I'm doing, but will settle for close G. Thanks Julie in Ramona (San Diego) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan frog closures
I love Frog closures too but they don't seem to be standard on English Elizabethans. However, there is a painting of Elizabeth in a white dress with frogs, labeled Polish Dress and one of the fameous ones where she is much older, holding gloves, the dress of a light color with orange frogging (?). Then there is one of the Russian ambassadors. I believe they are of Chinese origin, but spread west and north by our pre-16th Century date. Gadget!? From Folkwear? Avarice rears its expensive head. Wanda -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of S Young Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 12:47 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan frog closures I always thought frog closures were a chinese invention? Learn something new everyday! Sidney On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 4:23 AM, Julie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I made a coat dress/Spanish Surcoat which has frogs up the whole front opening. I'm trying to get documentation on the use of frogs in Elizabethan England. There are a couple of pictures in Janet Arnold. Does anyone have some links to either portraits or other primary type docs showing use of frogs and/or how the specific ones shown were tied? I'm using some very clever doo dads carried by FolkWear for tying these frogs. Much easier than just on a macrame board. I can't find period pictures of exactly what I'm doing, but will settle for close G. Thanks Julie in Ramona (San Diego) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan frog closures
On Apr 30, 2008, at 2:23 PM, Julie wrote: I made a coat dress/Spanish Surcoat which has frogs up the whole front opening. I'm trying to get documentation on the use of frogs in Elizabethan England. There are a couple of pictures in Janet Arnold. Does anyone have some links to either portraits or other primary type docs showing use of frogs and/or how the specific ones shown were tied? On May 1, 2008, at 5:39 AM, Wanda Pease wrote: I love Frog closures too but they don't seem to be standard on English Elizabethans. However, there is a painting of Elizabeth in a white dress with frogs, labeled Polish Dress and one of the fameous ones where she is much older, holding gloves, the dress of a light color with orange frogging (?). It depends on how you define frogging. We tend to think of frogs as a fancy piece of knotted cord on each side, one with a knotted ball of cord making a button, the other with a loop. The two examples you give are of a different design. Each has a flat horizontal piece of trim extending out in both directions from the center front with decorative tufts at the outer ends. At the center is a button and loop closure. This style is thought to have originated with Polish coats that had similar decorative fastenings (See Queen Eliz's Wardrobe Unlock'd pp. 136-8. She notes that the term frogging was not used in the 16th c.). The only other possibility I can think of is the portrait of Elizabeth of Valois showing knots of pearls down the center front: http://www.mystudios.com/women/abcde/sofonisba_valois.jpg It doesn't look as though the buttons and loops are integral with the knots (and I'm not sure how they could be, since the knots are strands of pearls), so it's still not quite a cognate with modern frogging in a structural sense. But it does have some of the aesthetic idea of decorative knots associated with fastenings. Can you extrapolate from this isolated example to justify modern frogging? Your call. Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Elizabethan frog closures
At 02:46 AM 5/1/2008, you wrote: I always thought frog closures were a chinese invention? Learn something new everyday! From the little research I can do with my slowly growing Chinese costuming library, I see ties closing clothing until the 16th c. or so. Even then, it's a simple monkey fist and loop. I am sure, that your fancy loops and twists of the modern frog are either Russian or Polish (or surrounds) in origin. The Chinese seem to prefer a simple button and loop type. They might have come west, but truly are very late, relatively speaking. Genie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Elizabethan frog closures
I made a coat dress/Spanish Surcoat which has frogs up the whole front opening. I'm trying to get documentation on the use of frogs in Elizabethan England. There are a couple of pictures in Janet Arnold. Does anyone have some links to either portraits or other primary type docs showing use of frogs and/or how the specific ones shown were tied? I'm using some very clever doo dads carried by FolkWear for tying these frogs. Much easier than just on a macrame board. I can't find period pictures of exactly what I'm doing, but will settle for close G. Thanks Julie in Ramona (San Diego) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
