Re: [Hardhats-members] Default Editor for Vista and MailMan OpenFORUM email
Sleep? What is that? On Saturday 11 June 2005 01:01 am, Kevin Toppenberg wrote: I just played with this some more, and data from one edit is showing up in the data from next edit. I'll need to debug this some more after I get some sleep... Kevin --- Kevin Toppenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok. I have gotten this working. I created an ALTERNATE EDITOR entry that calls custom code. This code gets the data from the database, writes it to a file. Then launches a linux editor (e.g. joe) to edit the data. When joe is done, the data is put back into the database. I have documented this here: http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php?title=Using_a_linux_editor _inside_VistA Hope it works for you. I am glad to figure this out, because I found the VistA screen editor to be difficult to use. Kevin --- Ismet Kursunoglu, MD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is an ALTERNATE EDITOR file (I think I got the name right) that provides a platform independent mechanism for invoking editors (much as This is what I found. I am running GT.M V5.0-FT01 Linux x86 (under debian-pure64 sid with emulation) and VistA FOIA20050227 from Bhaskar. ** OUTPUT FROM WHAT FILE: ALTERNATE EDITOR// -A- SEARCH FOR ALTERNATE EDITOR FIELD: ? Answer with FIELD NUMBER, or LABEL Choose from: .01 NAME 1ACTIVATION CODE FROM DIWE 2OK TO RUN TEST 3RETURN TO CALLING EDITOR 7DESCRIPTION (word-processing) -A- SEARCH FOR ALTERNATE EDITOR FIELD: ** Would it be possible to evoke ZEDIT and have it display for example with Mailman or for that matter anywhere else in VistA? I would think not. On Jun 6, 2005, at 6:16 AM, K.S. Bhaskar wrote: Ismet -- Set the EDITOR environment variable before starting GT.M to point to any editor. When ZEDIT function is invoked from inside GT.M, it will start the editor pointed to by $EDITOR, e.g.: source /usr/local/gtm/gtmprofile export EDITOR=`which vim` mumps -dir GTMZEDIT XYZ I am not sure, however, whether VistA invokes an editor with ZEDIT. I don't know why it is presenting VMSEDT as a choice for GT.M on Linux. What happens if you take that choice? That was from the OpenForum server - I am not sure what systems they are running under. When I use that it evokes an editor that looks like this Select MailMan Menu Option: SML Send a Message Subject: testing You may enter the text of the message... 1This is just a test to see what the VMSEDT option sets for the editor. 2 EDIT Option: ? Choose, by first letter, a Word Processing Command or type a Line Number to edit that line. EDIT Option: Send mail to: KURSUNOGLU,ISMET// KURSUNOGLU,ISMET -- Ismet B. Kursunoglu, MD, FCCP Medical Director Alaska Clinic, LLC 3750 Country Field Circle, UNIT B Wasilla, Alaska 99654 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (907)357-7240 --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members __ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display:
Re: [Hardhats-members] Default Editor for Vista and MailMan OpenFORUM email
Nancy; Sleep is one of those impractical myths, (like vacations and having a relationship) that take time away from our productivity. Only the enlightened have been able to overcome such distractions. ;^) - Original Message - From: Nancy Anthracite [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 5:52 AM Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] Default Editor for Vista and MailMan OpenFORUM email Sleep? What is that? On Saturday 11 June 2005 01:01 am, Kevin Toppenberg wrote: I just played with this some more, and data from one edit is showing up in the data from next edit. I'll need to debug this some more after I get some sleep... Kevin --- Kevin Toppenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok. I have gotten this working. I created an ALTERNATE EDITOR entry that calls custom code. This code gets the data from the database, writes it to a file. Then launches a linux editor (e.g. joe) to edit the data. When joe is done, the data is put back into the database. I have documented this here: http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php?title=Using_a_linux_editor _inside_VistA Hope it works for you. I am glad to figure this out, because I found the VistA screen editor to be difficult to use. Kevin --- Ismet Kursunoglu, MD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is an ALTERNATE EDITOR file (I think I got the name right) that provides a platform independent mechanism for invoking editors (much as This is what I found. I am running GT.M V5.0-FT01 Linux x86 (under debian-pure64 sid with emulation) and VistA FOIA20050227 from Bhaskar. ** OUTPUT FROM WHAT FILE: ALTERNATE EDITOR// -A- SEARCH FOR ALTERNATE EDITOR FIELD: ? Answer with FIELD NUMBER, or LABEL Choose from: .01 NAME 1ACTIVATION CODE FROM DIWE 2OK TO RUN TEST 3RETURN TO CALLING EDITOR 7DESCRIPTION (word-processing) -A- SEARCH FOR ALTERNATE EDITOR FIELD: ** Would it be possible to evoke ZEDIT and have it display for example with Mailman or for that matter anywhere else in VistA? I would think not. On Jun 6, 2005, at 6:16 AM, K.S. Bhaskar wrote: Ismet -- Set the EDITOR environment variable before starting GT.M to point to any editor. When ZEDIT function is invoked from inside GT.M, it will start the editor pointed to by $EDITOR, e.g.: source /usr/local/gtm/gtmprofile export EDITOR=`which vim` mumps -dir GTMZEDIT XYZ I am not sure, however, whether VistA invokes an editor with ZEDIT. I don't know why it is presenting VMSEDT as a choice for GT.M on Linux. What happens if you take that choice? That was from the OpenForum server - I am not sure what systems they are running under. When I use that it evokes an editor that looks like this Select MailMan Menu Option: SML Send a Message Subject: testing You may enter the text of the message... 1This is just a test to see what the VMSEDT option sets for the editor. 2 EDIT Option: ? Choose, by first letter, a Word Processing Command or type a Line Number to edit that line. EDIT Option: Send mail to: KURSUNOGLU,ISMET// KURSUNOGLU,ISMET -- Ismet B. Kursunoglu, MD, FCCP Medical Director Alaska Clinic, LLC 3750 Country Field Circle, UNIT B Wasilla, Alaska 99654 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (907)357-7240 --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members __ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 ___
RE: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==
Listen, I'm not sure what this says, but I somehow feel the need to make it clear I have nothing but respect for VistA and its developers. It was great, in fact, still is, but the old gray mare ain't what she used to be and is aging by the day. All systems that are worth a damn someday reach obsolescence. Which ain't to say VistA's going away any time soon. It's not hard to imagine a few years from now when several non-VA systems will be using it and the VA won't be. But the stuff the VA produces to replace it will be public domain too... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard G. DAVIS Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 12:18 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == I understand the dichotomy Gregory mentions, and I agree with the views he has expressed. However, I believe the fundamental issue is less a technical matter and more an natural 'tension' between concerns for operational effectiveness--delivery of quality health care, and the interest in administrative IT that arises from management. These two groups in most any enterprise you may choose to study are chronically in a state of 'conflict' due their different priorities and requirements for IT, and information management architecture. Where these competing forces arrive at a state of least tension, you usually find that the two groups have separated their IT, both software and hardware into two largely independent systems. For those who have been in university/college settings, you may remember that those institutions tend to have academic computer centers and associated resources under the governance of some faculty body, and separate administrative computer systems used to run the university controlled the the 'CEO' of the institution. DHCP has also been chronically plagued with an interesting form of this problem, that waxes and wanes over time. At present within the VA we see the administrative folks throwing their territorial imperatives around and not giving due consideration to the operational requirements of the enterprise. These 'conflicts' are often deflected into debates about hardware issues, and software system issues, all of which are usually not at all relevant to the bed-rock forces at work here. The person who says MUMPS is a dead language, get rid of VistA simply doesn¹t understand the problem. It is easier to indict a technology that can't defend itself, that to tackle the real core problem(s). Thus, the matter is not really about decentralized or centralized IT resources. It is all about meeting the needs of health care delivery staff and at the same time satisfying the needs of management. I am frequently convinced that the best outcomes are achieved with organizational structures, and IT systems that permit two relatively independent systems to coexist, one optimized for health care delivery, and one optimized for organizational administration. (The obvious need for effective interaction between these two systems is a subordinate or collateral matter to the core issue.) At the outset, DHCP was essentially free of intrusion of administrative demands. We built what seemed best for patient care. Only as Congress has insisted that the DVA generate some revenue to supplement appropriated funds has the 'administrative' fist come down in a heavy handed way on top of the health care interests. (Yes, there are other forces in play here as well.) This trend has promoted increased 'tension' between the operational and administrative sides of the house. The process needs to be focused on the organizational behavior issues where the natural conflicts between the two sides of the house can be resolved appropriately. These processes are not technology based or driven. Instead, they are very much about organization and management. (It is in the spirit of the best of breed bureaucrats who prefer diffusion of responsibility and scape-goating of technology that we so often see the cry to throw out the 'old' stuff.) Clearly, the VAH health care delivery process is mission critical and focused on the patient. The IT system need there is for a highly 'decentralized' framework that is centered on the patient/caregiver partnership. On the other hand, the DVA administration process must be able to effectively manage the resources of the DVA to maintain its two main lines of business--entitlements and sick veterans. That requires a highly 'centralized' IT framework that is centered on the problem of enterprise management. Whether these two groups are served by a single monolithic hardware system buried in a Colorado mountain, or by two slightly smaller computer systems situated at opposite ends of the Continental US, or by a massive number of desktop computers is really not too important once the balance between these two competing groups has been achieved. After that, all us 'techno-nerds' can go off
Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==
It seem to me that you do want is an M database that is reengineered for VistA because of its speed, easier mantainance and reliability and additionally, the ability to do SQL queries on that database. Seems like Cache delivers that and with the right additional software, GT.M can do that as well. The Intersystems folks knew what they were doing when they bought up all of those flavors of M. The Epic folks know what they are doing as well. Relational databases are slower and that has long been recognized, and they require a lot more work to maintain and design. Oracle is probably the gorilla in that field and is very expensive and slow. Yea, maybe you get some pretty reports from it, but not likely in real time. Tell all of the busy healh care worker why they have to wait when they should be taking care of patients so that you can get reports easily. The patients and those who care for them are not likely to be very understanding. On Saturday 11 June 2005 01:39 pm, Gillon, Joseph wrote: Listen, I'm not sure what this says, but I somehow feel the need to make it clear I have nothing but respect for VistA and its developers. It was great, in fact, still is, but the old gray mare ain't what she used to be and is aging by the day. All systems that are worth a damn someday reach obsolescence. Which ain't to say VistA's going away any time soon. It's not hard to imagine a few years from now when several non-VA systems will be using it and the VA won't be. But the stuff the VA produces to replace it will be public domain too... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard G. DAVIS Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 12:18 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == I understand the dichotomy Gregory mentions, and I agree with the views he has expressed. However, I believe the fundamental issue is less a technical matter and more an natural 'tension' between concerns for operational effectiveness--delivery of quality health care, and the interest in administrative IT that arises from management. These two groups in most any enterprise you may choose to study are chronically in a state of 'conflict' due their different priorities and requirements for IT, and information management architecture. Where these competing forces arrive at a state of least tension, you usually find that the two groups have separated their IT, both software and hardware into two largely independent systems. For those who have been in university/college settings, you may remember that those institutions tend to have academic computer centers and associated resources under the governance of some faculty body, and separate administrative computer systems used to run the university controlled the the 'CEO' of the institution. DHCP has also been chronically plagued with an interesting form of this problem, that waxes and wanes over time. At present within the VA we see the administrative folks throwing their territorial imperatives around and not giving due consideration to the operational requirements of the enterprise. These 'conflicts' are often deflected into debates about hardware issues, and software system issues, all of which are usually not at all relevant to the bed-rock forces at work here. The person who says MUMPS is a dead language, get rid of VistA simply doesn¹t understand the problem. It is easier to indict a technology that can't defend itself, that to tackle the real core problem(s). Thus, the matter is not really about decentralized or centralized IT resources. It is all about meeting the needs of health care delivery staff and at the same time satisfying the needs of management. I am frequently convinced that the best outcomes are achieved with organizational structures, and IT systems that permit two relatively independent systems to coexist, one optimized for health care delivery, and one optimized for organizational administration. (The obvious need for effective interaction between these two systems is a subordinate or collateral matter to the core issue.) At the outset, DHCP was essentially free of intrusion of administrative demands. We built what seemed best for patient care. Only as Congress has insisted that the DVA generate some revenue to supplement appropriated funds has the 'administrative' fist come down in a heavy handed way on top of the health care interests. (Yes, there are other forces in play here as well.) This trend has promoted increased 'tension' between the operational and administrative sides of the house. The process needs to be focused on the organizational behavior issues where the natural conflicts between the two sides of the house can be resolved appropriately. These processes are not technology based or driven. Instead, they are very much about organization and
Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==
Actually, I think VistA's growing pains (or death throes, depending on your point of view), really has much less to do with the underlying language and DBMS than many suppose. The trouble is that it is such an obvious difference between VistA and some other systems that we tend to focus on it far too much, thinking this is where we can find the reason for its success or failure. === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Before one gets the right answer, one must ask the right question. -- S. Barry Cooper On Jun 11, 2005, at 12:00 PM, Nancy Anthracite wrote: It seem to me that you do want is an M database that is reengineered for VistA because of its speed, easier mantainance and reliability and additionally, the ability to do SQL queries on that database. Seems like Cache delivers that and with the right additional software, GT.M can do that as well. The Intersystems folks knew what they were doing when they bought up all of those flavors of M. The Epic folks know what they are doing as well. Relational databases are slower and that has long been recognized, and they require a lot more work to maintain and design. Oracle is probably the gorilla in that field and is very expensive and slow. Yea, maybe you get some pretty reports from it, but not likely in real time. Tell all of the busy healh care worker why they have to wait when they should be taking care of patients so that you can get reports easily. The patients and those who care for them are not likely to be very understanding. --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==
I'm just on my way out the door right now, but while I think the relational model sometimes gets a raw deal around here, I also agree that it is not the be and end all of database technology. If you try and sit down and work through the mathematics, you'll quickly find that object models have their problem (not insurmountable, IMO), too. I do think we're seeing the beginnings of a paradigm shift (and only recently forwarded the message from ACM Queue on "post-relational" technology). UML is maturing, metadata is really picking up steam, and I believe ODMG is a much more solid specification than Date and others give it credit for. On a theoretical level, there are a lot of areas of work (such as ontologies and computational applications of modal logic) that I believe are very promising. At the time of Dr. Codd's seminal work, many of these ideas were only beginning to take shape. ===Gregory Woodhouse[EMAIL PROTECTED]"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing moreto add, but when there is nothing left to take away."-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery On Jun 11, 2005, at 1:48 PM, GARY MONGER wrote:From my perspective relational SQL databases have served well in a one size fits all sort of way, but they are hardly the summit of 21st century system design. I dont hold that 21st century necessarily holds a better solution either. Ive seen some very well done raw MUMPS systems, even some with SQL mappings for those that like verbose queries. SQL mapping of VistA data has been available for some time. The HDR historical project will result in a SQL mapping of the bulk of VistA clinical data.A database, well designed and implemented, be it SQL, Fileman, MUMPS, filing cabinet, shoebox, or whatever can solve some problems well, others not so well. No matter what the technology, no matter what the architecture, no matter what the design, any system that replaces VistA will have significant shortcomings. The task is so massive, and so varied that no choice will serve every aspect well. The real issue at hand is how to get it implemented well. I think the VHA has and will continue to struggle with this. Its a tough problem, especially for a government agency.Managing implementation is also a tough problem for World VistA. I can see that there is some good work going on, but Im curious about how major efforts will be handled. This data standardization issue is not an easy one to solve, its the nature of the clinical world. Will that be tackled by World VistA? What about name and number spaces? How about mods to Kernel, HL7, and Broker? I buy the open source model for development, at least theoretically, but were not talking about a Linux Kernel here. In addition to the scale, VistA has very real ties to VHA development, which is likely to continue for quite some time, and now there is VistA-Office as well.As for shooting VistA in the head ASAP, maybe we should get the new horse saddled up before shooting the one were riding.
RE: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==
Yes, it will be interesting to see what can be done with Cache. We're looking into the patient screening issue I mentioned previously, for example. It's interesting, I never heard of this M/VistA being faster than SQL relational until I started reading these messages. I'm keen to see if that's true. I just got done writing an HL7 data access object to talk to the HDR which is Oracle. (Don't ask why I'm talking HL7 to an Oracle database, I'm not sure I know myself.) I will certainly be looking at the speed. Yes, Oracle is expensive, perhaps prohibitively so. Is that the only game in town, I wonder? Surely there's something between SQL Server and Oracle? And yes, speed is essential. It's what makes VistAWeb so popular with providers, along with its simple interface. I'm not gonna be happy if the HDR slows it down. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy Anthracite Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:00 PM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == It seem to me that you do want is an M database that is reengineered for VistA because of its speed, easier mantainance and reliability and additionally, the ability to do SQL queries on that database. Seems like Cache delivers that and with the right additional software, GT.M can do that as well. The Intersystems folks knew what they were doing when they bought up all of those flavors of M. The Epic folks know what they are doing as well. Relational databases are slower and that has long been recognized, and they require a lot more work to maintain and design. Oracle is probably the gorilla in that field and is very expensive and slow. Yea, maybe you get some pretty reports from it, but not likely in real time. Tell all of the busy healh care worker why they have to wait when they should be taking care of patients so that you can get reports easily. The patients and those who care for them are not likely to be very understanding. On Saturday 11 June 2005 01:39 pm, Gillon, Joseph wrote: Listen, I'm not sure what this says, but I somehow feel the need to make it clear I have nothing but respect for VistA and its developers. It was great, in fact, still is, but the old gray mare ain't what she used to be and is aging by the day. All systems that are worth a damn someday reach obsolescence. Which ain't to say VistA's going away any time soon. It's not hard to imagine a few years from now when several non-VA systems will be using it and the VA won't be. But the stuff the VA produces to replace it will be public domain too... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard G. DAVIS Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 12:18 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == I understand the dichotomy Gregory mentions, and I agree with the views he has expressed. However, I believe the fundamental issue is less a technical matter and more an natural 'tension' between concerns for operational effectiveness--delivery of quality health care, and the interest in administrative IT that arises from management. These two groups in most any enterprise you may choose to study are chronically in a state of 'conflict' due their different priorities and requirements for IT, and information management architecture. Where these competing forces arrive at a state of least tension, you usually find that the two groups have separated their IT, both software and hardware into two largely independent systems. For those who have been in university/college settings, you may remember that those institutions tend to have academic computer centers and associated resources under the governance of some faculty body, and separate administrative computer systems used to run the university controlled the the 'CEO' of the institution. DHCP has also been chronically plagued with an interesting form of this problem, that waxes and wanes over time. At present within the VA we see the administrative folks throwing their territorial imperatives around and not giving due consideration to the operational requirements of the enterprise. These 'conflicts' are often deflected into debates about hardware issues, and software system issues, all of which are usually not at all relevant to the bed-rock forces at work here. The person who says MUMPS is a dead language, get rid of VistA simply doesn¹t understand the problem. It is easier to indict a technology that can't defend itself, that to tackle the real core problem(s). Thus, the matter is not really about decentralized or centralized IT resources. It is all about meeting the needs of health care delivery staff and at the same time satisfying the needs of management. I am frequently convinced that the best outcomes are achieved with organizational
Re: [Hardhats-members] Default Editor for Vista and MailMan OpenFORUM email
I think it is working appropriately now. I forgot to new one of my variables. It's fixed on the wikki site. Hope that works for you all. Kevin --- Kevin Toppenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just played with this some more, and data from one edit is showing up in the data from next edit. I'll need to debug this some more after I get some sleep... Kevin --- Kevin Toppenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok. I have gotten this working. I created an ALTERNATE EDITOR entry that calls custom code. This code gets the data from the database, writes it to a file. Then launches a linux editor (e.g. joe) to edit the data. When joe is done, the data is put back into the database. I have documented this here: http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php?title=Using_a_linux_editor_inside_VistA Hope it works for you. I am glad to figure this out, because I found the VistA screen editor to be difficult to use. Kevin --- Ismet Kursunoglu, MD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is an ALTERNATE EDITOR file (I think I got the name right) that provides a platform independent mechanism for invoking editors (much as This is what I found. I am running GT.M V5.0-FT01 Linux x86 (under debian-pure64 sid with emulation) and VistA FOIA20050227 from Bhaskar. ** OUTPUT FROM WHAT FILE: ALTERNATE EDITOR// -A- SEARCH FOR ALTERNATE EDITOR FIELD: ? Answer with FIELD NUMBER, or LABEL Choose from: .01 NAME 1ACTIVATION CODE FROM DIWE 2OK TO RUN TEST 3RETURN TO CALLING EDITOR 7DESCRIPTION (word-processing) -A- SEARCH FOR ALTERNATE EDITOR FIELD: ** Would it be possible to evoke ZEDIT and have it display for example with Mailman or for that matter anywhere else in VistA? I would think not. On Jun 6, 2005, at 6:16 AM, K.S. Bhaskar wrote: Ismet -- Set the EDITOR environment variable before starting GT.M to point to any editor. When ZEDIT function is invoked from inside GT.M, it will start the editor pointed to by $EDITOR, e.g.: source /usr/local/gtm/gtmprofile export EDITOR=`which vim` mumps -dir GTMZEDIT XYZ I am not sure, however, whether VistA invokes an editor with ZEDIT. I don't know why it is presenting VMSEDT as a choice for GT.M on Linux. What happens if you take that choice? That was from the OpenForum server - I am not sure what systems they are running under. When I use that it evokes an editor that looks like this Select MailMan Menu Option: SML Send a Message Subject: testing You may enter the text of the message... 1This is just a test to see what the VMSEDT option sets for the editor. 2 EDIT Option: ? Choose, by first letter, a Word Processing Command or type a Line Number to edit that line. EDIT Option: Send mail to: KURSUNOGLU,ISMET// KURSUNOGLU,ISMET -- Ismet B. Kursunoglu, MD, FCCP Medical Director Alaska Clinic, LLC 3750 Country Field Circle, UNIT B Wasilla, Alaska 99654 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (907)357-7240 --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members __ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a
Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==
Joseph; One reason you haven't seen benchmark comparisions between the different relational databases (Oracle, Sybase, DBase (you pick the release), Informix), the vendors contractually inhibits their users from publishing the results. Why would they do that? Because they know the outcome. It ain't good for them. The Koreans did publish the results of one benchmark they did in one of the Last MUG Quarterlies. The results were astounding. Same hardware, same load, same task took the relationals 6 hours or more to complete. MUMPS took something less than one hour to complete. Oracle used to be a true relational database and their performance really sucked. They hired Irene Chen from SAIC and the CHCS project. They learned some of why MUMPS is faster. Soon after Oracle became a relational database that mapped to a heirachical database internally. This gave them a big boost in performance and some improvement in scalability. They just didn't learn the rest of the lesson, how to make it scalable or learn how to build effective memory cacheing. The result is that MUMPS allows for some very important performance enhancement that other databases haven't learned yet. One such enhancement is that most read requests are satisfied in memory cache and these requests don't have to go out to disk. So only about 15% of the reads on a loaded system actually result in a physical read. This is a phenomenal increase in performance. A MUMPS system will speed up with more people on the system (to a max determined by the available memory and the CPU performance), but these limits are much higher numbers of users than Oracle or Sybase could support on the same hardware. The bottom line is that there have been attempts to replace MUMPS systems in the past and the CHCS project for the DoD has been no exception. They have been trying to bring up CHCS II to replace the CHCS I system which was patterned after DHCP, the direct predicessor to VistA. After 15 years and many millions of dollars, CHCS II has finally been withdrawn for the last time and CHCS I still runs the hospitals. If Oracle or Sybase, or Informix could do the job, they would be doing it. Where are they?? Want an idea of the complexity of the VistA model? Look up the Entity Relationship Diagrams. Then show one of the nearly 100 pdf files to your favorite Relational Database Guru and watch him blanch at the numbers of data elements and relationships represented there. On CHCS there were over 22,000 different data elements in the data dictionary. In Northern California, nearly 500,000 patient records are stored in less than 120 gigabytes of disk space. It would be interesting to see how much space the same information would take up in the relational model, then pack a lunch, cause it will take a good long time to traverse that data as a relational database. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 5:22 PM Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == Yes, it will be interesting to see what can be done with Cache. We're looking into the patient screening issue I mentioned previously, for example. It's interesting, I never heard of this M/VistA being faster than SQL relational until I started reading these messages. I'm keen to see if that's true. I just got done writing an HL7 data access object to talk to the HDR which is Oracle. (Don't ask why I'm talking HL7 to an Oracle database, I'm not sure I know myself.) I will certainly be looking at the speed. Yes, Oracle is expensive, perhaps prohibitively so. Is that the only game in town, I wonder? Surely there's something between SQL Server and Oracle? And yes, speed is essential. It's what makes VistAWeb so popular with providers, along with its simple interface. I'm not gonna be happy if the HDR slows it down. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy Anthracite Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:00 PM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == It seem to me that you do want is an M database that is reengineered for VistA because of its speed, easier mantainance and reliability and additionally, the ability to do SQL queries on that database. Seems like Cache delivers that and with the right additional software, GT.M can do that as well. The Intersystems folks knew what they were doing when they bought up all of those flavors of M. The Epic folks know what they are doing as well. Relational databases are slower and that has long been recognized, and they require a lot more work to maintain and design. Oracle is probably the gorilla in that field and is very expensive and slow. Yea, maybe you get some pretty reports from it, but not likely in real time. Tell all of the busy healh care worker why they have to wait when
Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==
Are you saying that a paper didn't make it through the peer review process? If I were a reviewer for a paper of this type, I'd be looking for clear definitions of terms like faster, and I'd also want to see some theoretical basis for the comparisons being made. My personal opinion is that M based systems would fare very well in a study such as this, but I would not expect papers relying largely on anecdotal evidence or measures such as transactions per second (without further qualification) to be rejected. === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking. -- Albert Einstein On Jun 11, 2005, at 7:51 PM, Chris Richardson wrote: Joseph; One reason you haven't seen benchmark comparisions between the different relational databases (Oracle, Sybase, DBase (you pick the release), Informix), the vendors contractually inhibits their users from publishing the results. Why would they do that? Because they know the outcome. It ain't good for them. The Koreans did publish the results of one benchmark they did in one of the Last MUG Quarterlies. The results were astounding. Same hardware, same load, same task took the relationals 6 hours or more to complete. MUMPS took something less than one hour to complete. Oracle used to be a true relational database and their performance really sucked. They hired Irene Chen from SAIC and the CHCS project. They learned some of why MUMPS is faster. Soon after Oracle became a relational database that mapped to a heirachical database internally. This gave them a big boost in performance and some improvement in scalability. They just didn't learn the rest of the lesson, how to make it scalable or learn how to build effective memory cacheing. The result is that MUMPS allows for some very important performance enhancement that other databases haven't learned yet. One such enhancement is that most read requests are satisfied in memory cache and these requests don't have to go out to disk. So only about 15% of the reads on a loaded system actually result in a physical read. This is a phenomenal increase in performance. A MUMPS system will speed up with more people on the system (to a max determined by the available memory and the CPU performance), but these limits are much higher numbers of users than Oracle or Sybase could support on the same hardware. The bottom line is that there have been attempts to replace MUMPS systems in the past and the CHCS project for the DoD has been no exception. They have been trying to bring up CHCS II to replace the CHCS I system which was patterned after DHCP, the direct predicessor to VistA. After 15 years and many millions of dollars, CHCS II has finally been withdrawn for the last time and CHCS I still runs the hospitals. If Oracle or Sybase, or Informix could do the job, they would be doing it. Where are they?? Want an idea of the complexity of the VistA model? Look up the Entity Relationship Diagrams. Then show one of the nearly 100 pdf files to your favorite Relational Database Guru and watch him blanch at the numbers of data elements and relationships represented there. On CHCS there were over 22,000 different data elements in the data dictionary. In Northern California, nearly 500,000 patient records are stored in less than 120 gigabytes of disk space. It would be interesting to see how much space the same information would take up in the relational model, then pack a lunch, cause it will take a good long time to traverse that data as a relational database. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 5:22 PM Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == Yes, it will be interesting to see what can be done with Cache. We're looking into the patient screening issue I mentioned previously, for example. It's interesting, I never heard of this M/VistA being faster than SQL relational until I started reading these messages. I'm keen to see if that's true. I just got done writing an HL7 data access object to talk to the HDR which is Oracle. (Don't ask why I'm talking HL7 to an Oracle database, I'm not sure I know myself.) I will certainly be looking at the speed. Yes, Oracle is expensive, perhaps prohibitively so. Is that the only game in town, I wonder? Surely there's something between SQL Server and Oracle? And yes, speed is essential. It's what makes VistAWeb so popular with providers, along with its simple interface. I'm not gonna be happy if the HDR slows it down. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy Anthracite Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:00 PM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == It seem
Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==
Which is faster? An Indy car or a Formula One car? In the Indianapolis 500, the leaders speeds will be between 220 and 230 mph. Speeds in the Grand Prix del Monaco will not be as high. What conclusions can you draw from this? === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] A practical man is a man who practices the errors of his forefathers. -- Benjamin Disraeli On Jun 11, 2005, at 7:51 PM, Chris Richardson wrote: Joseph; One reason you haven't seen benchmark comparisions between the different relational databases (Oracle, Sybase, DBase (you pick the release), Informix), the vendors contractually inhibits their users from publishing the results. Why would they do that? Because they know the outcome. It ain't good for them. The Koreans did publish the results of one benchmark they did in one of the Last MUG Quarterlies. The results were astounding. Same hardware, same load, same task took the relationals 6 hours or more to complete. MUMPS took something less than one hour to complete. Oracle used to be a true relational database and their performance really sucked. They hired Irene Chen from SAIC and the CHCS project. They learned some of why MUMPS is faster. Soon after Oracle became a relational database that mapped to a heirachical database internally. This gave them a big boost in performance and some improvement in scalability. They just didn't learn the rest of the lesson, how to make it scalable or learn how to build effective memory cacheing. The result is that MUMPS allows for some very important performance enhancement that other databases haven't learned yet. One such enhancement is that most read requests are satisfied in memory cache and these requests don't have to go out to disk. So only about 15% of the reads on a loaded system actually result in a physical read. This is a phenomenal increase in performance. A MUMPS system will speed up with more people on the system (to a max determined by the available memory and the CPU performance), but these limits are much higher numbers of users than Oracle or Sybase could support on the same hardware. The bottom line is that there have been attempts to replace MUMPS systems in the past and the CHCS project for the DoD has been no exception. They have been trying to bring up CHCS II to replace the CHCS I system which was patterned after DHCP, the direct predicessor to VistA. After 15 years and many millions of dollars, CHCS II has finally been withdrawn for the last time and CHCS I still runs the hospitals. If Oracle or Sybase, or Informix could do the job, they would be doing it. Where are they?? Want an idea of the complexity of the VistA model? Look up the Entity Relationship Diagrams. Then show one of the nearly 100 pdf files to your favorite Relational Database Guru and watch him blanch at the numbers of data elements and relationships represented there. On CHCS there were over 22,000 different data elements in the data dictionary. In Northern California, nearly 500,000 patient records are stored in less than 120 gigabytes of disk space. It would be interesting to see how much space the same information would take up in the relational model, then pack a lunch, cause it will take a good long time to traverse that data as a relational database. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 5:22 PM Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == Yes, it will be interesting to see what can be done with Cache. We're looking into the patient screening issue I mentioned previously, for example. It's interesting, I never heard of this M/VistA being faster than SQL relational until I started reading these messages. I'm keen to see if that's true. I just got done writing an HL7 data access object to talk to the HDR which is Oracle. (Don't ask why I'm talking HL7 to an Oracle database, I'm not sure I know myself.) I will certainly be looking at the speed. Yes, Oracle is expensive, perhaps prohibitively so. Is that the only game in town, I wonder? Surely there's something between SQL Server and Oracle? And yes, speed is essential. It's what makes VistAWeb so popular with providers, along with its simple interface. I'm not gonna be happy if the HDR slows it down. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy Anthracite Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:00 PM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps == It seem to me that you do want is an M database that is reengineered for VistA because of its speed, easier mantainance and reliability and additionally, the ability to do SQL queries on that database. Seems like Cache delivers that and with the right additional software, GT.M can do that as
Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==
Relational databases are slower and that has long been recognized, and they require a lot more work to maintain and design. Oracle is probably the gorilla in that field and is very expensive and slow. Yea, maybe you get some pretty reports from it, but not likely in real time. Not all of them. Certainly Oracle and MS SQL are slower. Ruben --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==
Yes, Oracle is expensive, perhaps prohibitively so. Is that the only game in town, I wonder? Surely there's something between SQL Server and Oracle? You mean aside from Postgres, Mysql and others? Ruben --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] IO file designation for VistA printing to CUPS server
Thanks very much Mark, I got this with my first go around - Heading (S/C): DEVICE LIST// DEVICE: test TEST-LINUX-PRINTER HOME LAN [BUSY] ... RETRY? NO// Then I realized I got the path wrong to the temp file. Now I am getting this error: Do you want your output QUEUED? NO// (NO) lpr: error - unable to print file: client-error-not-found Do I need to set the POST-CLOSE EXECUTE: ? Here are configurations of the terminal and device. (I am using an older Brother HL1240 laser printer- which pretty much emulates a basic HP Laser Jet) * Select TERMINAL TYPE NAME: P-HPLASER12 HP laser printer in portrait mode (12 cpi) ANOTHER ONE: STANDARD CAPTIONED OUTPUT? Yes// (Yes) Include COMPUTED fields: (N/Y/R/B): NO// BOTH Computed Fields and Record Number (IEN) NUMBER: 95 NAME: P-HPLASER12 SELECTABLE AT SIGN-ON: YESRIGHT MARGIN: 96 FORM FEED: # PAGE LENGTH: 64 BACK SPACE: $C(8) OPEN EXECUTE: W *27,E,*27,s0C,*27,k10H,*27,10o7.64c69p2e67F,*27,a 196M CLOSE EXECUTE: W *27,E U IO K IO(1,IO) C IO ZSYSTEM lpr -r -l -P _ION_ _PRINTER NAME: HL1240 ASK DEVICE TYPE AT SIGN-ON: YES, ASK IO DESCRIPTION: HP laser printer in portrait mode (12 cpi) Select DEVICE NAME: HL1240 TEST-LINUX-PRINTERHOME LAN /home/ibk/t/HL1240.TMP ANOTHER ONE: STANDARD CAPTIONED OUTPUT? Yes// (Yes) Include COMPUTED fields: (N/Y/R/B): NO// BOTH Computed Fields and Record Number (IEN) NUMBER: 42 NAME: TEST-LINUX-PRINTER $I: /home/ibk/t/HL1240.TMPASK DEVICE: NO ASK PARAMETERS: NOSIGN-ON/SYSTEM DEVICE: NO QUEUING: ALLOWED LOCATION OF TERMINAL: HOME LAN LOCAL SYNONYM: HL1240 ASK HOST FILE: NO ASK HFS I/O OPERATION: NO FORM CURRENTLY MOUNTED: Plain paper MNEMONIC: HL1240 PRE-OPEN EXECUTE: S IO=$P(IO,.)_._$J_$P($H,,,2)_._$P(IO,.,2) SUBTYPE: P-HPLASER12 USE TIMEOUT ON OPENS: NO TYPE: TERMINAL PRINT SERVER NAME OR ADDRESS: 192.168.0.105 REMOTE PRINTER NAME: HL1240 ASK DEVICE TYPE AT SIGN-ON: YES, ASK * I see the print jobs now writing out to the temp file /home/ibk/t -rw-r--r-- 1 ibk ibk 849 Jun 11 21:34 HL1240.291477692.TMP -rw-r--r-- 1 ibk ibk 849 Jun 11 21:37 HL1240.291477848.TMP -rw-r--r-- 1 ibk ibk 849 Jun 11 21:38 HL1240.291477887.TMP -rw-r--r-- 1 ibk ibk 849 Jun 11 21:39 HL1240.291477958.TMP -rw-r--r-- 1 ibk ibk0 Jun 11 21:29 HL1240.TMP The server log /var/log/cups shows #tail -f access_log 192.168.0.100 - - [11/Jun/2005:22:03:43 -0700] POST / HTTP/1.1 200 137 192.168.0.100 - - [11/Jun/2005:22:03:43 -0700] POST / HTTP/1.1 200 137 192.168.0.100 - - [11/Jun/2005:22:03:43 -0700] POST / HTTP/1.1 200 77 192.168.0.100 - - [11/Jun/2005:22:03:43 -0700] POST / HTTP/1.1 200 124 192.168.0.100 - - [11/Jun/2005:22:03:43 -0700] POST / HTTP/1.1 200 124 Corresponding to submitting the print job. Thanks for any advice. And thanks to all of you on the list and beyond for your patience, fantastic discussions/observations and hard work. MPA wrote: I have been using the following settings in the device and terminal types. I have printed to multiple printers and sent multiple labels/prescriptions to an single printer over a very short period of time. It has not failed me yet, Kevin is correct the key is in the PRE-OPEN EXECUTE, I just set IO equal to $I with a piece in the middle consisting of $J(job) and the second peice of $H(time) this give the TEMP file its own unique name. You do not have th have the printer name in the temporary file just SOMETHING.TMP, you need the format SOMETHING.TMP because the PRE-OPEN EXECUTE in the DEVICE does a $P looking for a .. You also need to have the DEVICE Name equal to the Linux name for the printer, this is the ION variable so lpr know what printer to use. I do suggest leaving the TEMP file name the same as the device name so if you have a failure you at least know the device name that failed. It is the CLOSE EXECUTE in the TERMINAL TYPE that triggers the lpr to print. Let me know if this works. Mark Select TERMINAL TYPE NAME: P-HPMES ANOTHER ONE: STANDARD CAPTIONED OUTPUT? Yes// (Yes) Include COMPUTED fields: (N/Y/R/B): NO// BOTH Computed Fields and Record Number (IEN) NUMBER: 198 NAME: P-HPMES RIGHT MARGIN: 80 FORM FEED: # PAGE LENGTH: 64 BACK SPACE: $C(8) OPEN EXECUTE: W *27,E,*27,k2G CLOSE EXECUTE: W *27,E U IO K IO(1,IO) C IO ZSYSTEM lpr -r -l -P _ION_ _IO Attached below are the DEVICE's for reference. OUTPUT FROM WHAT FILE: TERMINAL TYPE// DEVICE Select DEVICE NAME: HP2200 BASEMENT /home/pharmacy/t/HP2200.TMP ANOTHER ONE: HP4050 OFFICE /home/pharmacy/t/HP4050.TMP ANOTHER ONE: STANDARD CAPTIONED OUTPUT? Yes// (Yes) Include COMPUTED fields: (N/Y/R/B): NO// BOTH
Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==
Actually I think the VA has plans to be able to use any number of SQL databases when they are done with this rehosting, but I doubt that any SQL database will beat the speed of M. After all, it was specifically designed for use in this setting. Relational databases are going to be better for some things, but I don't think this setting is one of them. On Sunday 12 June 2005 12:23 am, Ruben Safir wrote: Yes, Oracle is expensive, perhaps prohibitively so. Is that the only game in town, I wonder? Surely there's something between SQL Server and Oracle? You mean aside from Postgres, Mysql and others? Ruben --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members -- Nancy Anthracite --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] == VistaWeb Missing Apps ==
I use MySQL and am pretty happy with it. === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] A practical man is a man who practices the errors of his forefathers. -- Benjamin Disraeli On Jun 11, 2005, at 9:23 PM, Ruben Safir wrote: Yes, Oracle is expensive, perhaps prohibitively so. Is that the only game in town, I wonder? Surely there's something between SQL Server and Oracle? You mean aside from Postgres, Mysql and others? Ruben --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by: NEC IT Guy Games. How far can you shotput a projector? How fast can you ride your desk chair down the office luge track? If you want to score the big prize, get to know the little guy. Play to win an NEC 61 plasma display: http://www.necitguy.com/?r=20 ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
