Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
From: James Boswell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Hardware List To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 06:30:07 +0100 On 19 Sep 2005, at 17:48:130, Greg Sevart wrote: Yes, the PII without on-die or integrated cache suffered from an even smaller bus width and frequency to cache than the on-die but not integrated cache did. With process sizes as big as they were (450 and 350nm), it wasn't economical to put large amounts of cache in the processor die. However, with 250nm and smaller processes, the die size was shrunk enough to make it economically viable. If the die is reasonable, it is certainly a lot cheaper to integrated it into the core than to make a processor 'package' a la Slot 1. The PII was a definite step backwards with regard to the PPro. However, it was necessary to keep processor costs down. As I'm sure you recall, the PPro was marketed soley as a server chip. However, the PII was for desktops and workstations, and therefore had to fit in price points less than that of the PPro. With the gigantic die size of the PPro at that time, it simply wasn't possible. Ideally, Intel would have continued the PPro, and gave it a 350/250nm process shrink and maintained it as the server line, but clearly they didn't. :) Well, there was the... 333Mhz? Pentium Pro Overdrive, which IIRC was a P2 with 256KB of fullspeed cache in the package. :p -JB There was also the Dixon - the PII laptop edition, topping at 366mhz, that had an integrated 256K of L2 on the die.
RE: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed
Where did you move to in Seattle? > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Dodge > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 10:38 PM > To: 'The Hardware List' > Subject: RE: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed > > Thank you, I like it so far, the weather is great.. > > > Mark Dodge > MD Computers > 602-421-0329 > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jeff.lane > Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 4:55 PM > To: The Hardware List > Subject: Re: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed > > Oh, BTW. Welcome to Washington State, Mark. I think you will > like it here. I lived in Phoenix many years ago and I prefer > the rain of Western WA to the incessant heat of mid and > southern Arizona. You, also, don't get much snow over > thereit isn't even an issue. > > > - Original Message - > From: "Mark Dodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'The Hardware List'" > Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 4:46 PM > Subject: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed > > > > Wow, I thought that cable was fast but 7153 according to DSLreports. > > Went from 3 meg DSL in Phoenix to 6 meg cable in Seattle, me likes. > > > > Mark Dodge > > MD Computers > > 602-421-0329 > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: > > 9/16/2005 > > > > >
RE: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed
Thank you, I like it so far, the weather is great.. Mark Dodge MD Computers 602-421-0329 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jeff.lane Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 4:55 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed Oh, BTW. Welcome to Washington State, Mark. I think you will like it here. I lived in Phoenix many years ago and I prefer the rain of Western WA to the incessant heat of mid and southern Arizona. You, also, don't get much snow over thereit isn't even an issue. - Original Message - From: "Mark Dodge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Hardware List'" Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 4:46 PM Subject: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed > Wow, I thought that cable was fast but 7153 according to DSLreports. > Went from 3 meg DSL in Phoenix to 6 meg cable in Seattle, me likes. > > Mark Dodge > MD Computers > 602-421-0329 > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 9/16/2005 > >
Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
On 18 Sep 2005, at 17:48:520, Chris Reeves wrote: Socket 775 is dead, in the longterm that is. In that saying, it is a very short life socket. Right now, it is your only choice. By early next year, it is expected to be replaced, making it one of the shorter lived sockets that I can remember. The Conroe samples I've seen thus far are S775, which suggests the socket is good into 2007 at least. Now, I see from what you're telling me you're buying AGP based Pentium IV 775 (so 865PE modified type boards). That's fine, lots of people use those (though Intel specifically says it is not a supported design). So, you lower your power consumption by going with an AGP card, and even high end AGP cards like the 6800Ultra don't use the kind of power that a X850, 7800, etc. use. http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2005q2/geforce-7800gtx/power.gif I'd say thats 'the kind of power' the X850XT and 7800GXT use. It's a little lower under load, but it's idle (non-3d) power draw is higher! -_-_ James Boswell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ : 1653327 | AIM : TorazChryx MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
On 19 Sep 2005, at 17:48:130, Greg Sevart wrote: Yes, the PII without on-die or integrated cache suffered from an even smaller bus width and frequency to cache than the on-die but not integrated cache did. With process sizes as big as they were (450 and 350nm), it wasn't economical to put large amounts of cache in the processor die. However, with 250nm and smaller processes, the die size was shrunk enough to make it economically viable. If the die is reasonable, it is certainly a lot cheaper to integrated it into the core than to make a processor 'package' a la Slot 1. The PII was a definite step backwards with regard to the PPro. However, it was necessary to keep processor costs down. As I'm sure you recall, the PPro was marketed soley as a server chip. However, the PII was for desktops and workstations, and therefore had to fit in price points less than that of the PPro. With the gigantic die size of the PPro at that time, it simply wasn't possible. Ideally, Intel would have continued the PPro, and gave it a 350/250nm process shrink and maintained it as the server line, but clearly they didn't. :) Well, there was the... 333Mhz? Pentium Pro Overdrive, which IIRC was a P2 with 256KB of fullspeed cache in the package. :p -JB
Re: [H] does this look legit
I agree with Chris. This stuff may, also, come for the Microsoft store which sells NFRs. Something does not smell right about these guys. MS just had a couple of huge prosecutions regarding employees that sold millions of dollars of stuff from the employee's store. They don't mention limited availability either. - Original Message - From: "Chris Reeves" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Hardware List'" Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 4:42 PM Subject: RE: [H] does this look legit No, it's not. OEMs are provided NFR recopies of software frequently by MS (example: just today I picked up a NFR 2003 SBS.) Not for Resale copies are intended for OEMs to use tools to train on; or tools to use as demonstration models. They are used to show people how the product works or to train techs. But a NFR copy is NOT an OEM copy; combining the two together is a misnomer; it is an OEM in the sense that it is provided to OEMs for those purposes, but a product that is OEM (and for resale) is a regular shipping product that is designed to ship with any piece of hardware. NewEgg does not, by any means, sell NFR software.. they do sell OEM software, which is designed for a new PC build. Does this make sense at all? :) CW -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Winterlight Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 6:31 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] does this look legit At 04:10 PM 9/19/2005, you wrote: MCE = Media Center Edition NFR = Not For Retail/Resale Technically, you can't buy this, as MS has designated it as not for resale. Not legit. But isn't this the same thing that Newegg sells as OEM. Bottom line will I have any problem activating it? - Original Message - From: Winterlight To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 5:59 PM Subject: [H] does this look legit Does the collective think this is a legit deal? This price seems pretty low, got it from Pricewatch. What is MCE and NFR stand for ? Windows XP Media Center Edition MCE 2005 Full install NFR Version. M93-00091 X09-91901 Dealer # - - Read more at 9 Software, Inc -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.3/106 - Release Date: 9/19/2005
RE: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed
14.99 for the rest of the year then 34.99. Mark Dodge MD Computers 602-421-0329 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary VanderMolen Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 10:22 AM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed Mark Dodge wrote: > Wow, I thought that cable was fast but 7153 according to DSLreports. > Went from 3 meg DSL in Phoenix to 6 meg cable in Seattle, me likes. You probably pay twice as much too. My 3 Mb DSL is only $24.99. Gary VanderMolen
RE: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed
No kidding that would be awesome Mark Dodge MD Computers 602-421-0329 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Weeden Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 6:43 AM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed A good friend of mine in Vienna, VA (just SW of DC) got a new service from Verizon. They ran fiber to his house and it is a souped up DSL-like service. 16 mbits for $50 a month. Me want... -- Brian
RE: [H] does this look legit
At 05:31 PM 9/19/2005, you wrote: NFRs are generally given for free to OEMs. If an OEM violates the agreement and sells an NFR, they can be prosecuted by MS, of course.. but seriously, how do you expect MS to "police" this? CW Well, right now, it looks to me, like they are attempting to police it by punishing the customer. A policy that, in the long run, always works against any business. If I buy it, and they won't activate it, now or in the future, then they are punishing the customer, who is acting in good faith. I didn't find this in some dark corner of the Internet, with a spoofed address that ends up off the coast of east nowhere. I found it on Pricewatch >> Software >> Operating System >> Media Center. Pricewatch is a well known and respected consumer, retail, search engine. Why can't MS check Pricewatch on a daily bases for it's star products. Because it is easier, and cheaper, for them to let the innocent consumer assume the liability, and then wait for the buyer to contact them for activation, so they can smack him down, and tell them you should of known better.
RE: [H] does this look legit
NFRs are generally given for free to OEMs. If an OEM violates the agreement and sells an NFR, they can be prosecuted by MS, of course.. but seriously, how do you expect MS to "police" this? CW -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Winterlight Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 6:59 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: RE: [H] does this look legit > > >NewEgg does not, by any means, sell NFR software.. they do sell OEM >software, which is designed for a new PC build. > >Does this make sense at all? > >:) yeah, about as much as the whole mother may I BS activation crap does. The consumer shouldn't even have to be concerned with this stuff. If they are issuing COAs then MS has sold them to them. It should be incumbent upon MS to police it's retail vendors, at least in it's native country.
RE: [H] does this look legit
NewEgg does not, by any means, sell NFR software.. they do sell OEM software, which is designed for a new PC build. Does this make sense at all? :) yeah, about as much as the whole mother may I BS activation crap does. The consumer shouldn't even have to be concerned with this stuff. If they are issuing COAs then MS has sold them to them. It should be incumbent upon MS to police it's retail vendors, at least in it's native country.
RE: [H] does this look legit
No, it's not. OEMs are provided NFR recopies of software frequently by MS (example: just today I picked up a NFR 2003 SBS.) Not for Resale copies are intended for OEMs to use tools to train on; or tools to use as demonstration models. They are used to show people how the product works or to train techs. But a NFR copy is NOT an OEM copy; combining the two together is a misnomer; it is an OEM in the sense that it is provided to OEMs for those purposes, but a product that is OEM (and for resale) is a regular shipping product that is designed to ship with any piece of hardware. NewEgg does not, by any means, sell NFR software.. they do sell OEM software, which is designed for a new PC build. Does this make sense at all? :) CW -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Winterlight Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 6:31 PM To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] does this look legit At 04:10 PM 9/19/2005, you wrote: >MCE = Media Center Edition >NFR = Not For Retail/Resale > >Technically, you can't buy this, as MS has designated it as not for >resale. Not legit. But isn't this the same thing that Newegg sells as OEM. Bottom line will I have any problem activating it? >- Original Message - From: Winterlight >To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com >Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 5:59 PM >Subject: [H] does this look legit > > >Does the collective think this is a legit deal? This price seems pretty >low, got it from Pricewatch. What is MCE and NFR stand for ? > > >Windows XP Media Center Edition MCE 2005 Full install NFR Version. >M93-00091 X09-91901 >Dealer # - - >Read more at 9 Software, Inc
Re: [H] does this look legit
At 04:10 PM 9/19/2005, you wrote: MCE = Media Center Edition NFR = Not For Retail/Resale Technically, you can't buy this, as MS has designated it as not for resale. Not legit. But isn't this the same thing that Newegg sells as OEM. Bottom line will I have any problem activating it? - Original Message - From: Winterlight To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 5:59 PM Subject: [H] does this look legit Does the collective think this is a legit deal? This price seems pretty low, got it from Pricewatch. What is MCE and NFR stand for ? Windows XP Media Center Edition MCE 2005 Full install NFR Version. M93-00091 X09-91901 Dealer # - - Read more at 9 Software, Inc
Re: [H] does this look legit
MCE = Media Center Edition NFR = Not For Retail/Resale Technically, you can't buy this, as MS has designated it as not for resale. Not legit. - Original Message - From: Winterlight To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 5:59 PM Subject: [H] does this look legit Does the collective think this is a legit deal? This price seems pretty low, got it from Pricewatch. What is MCE and NFR stand for ? Windows XP Media Center Edition MCE 2005 Full install NFR Version. M93-00091 X09-91901 Dealer # - - Read more at 9 Software, Inc
[H] does this look legit
Does the collective think this is a legit deal? This price seems pretty low, got it from Pricewatch. What is MCE and NFR stand for ? Windows XP Media Center Edition MCE 2005 Full install NFR Version. M93-00091 X09-91901 Dealer # - - Read more at 9 Software, Inc
[H] Seagate momentus ?
got a laptop in with a Seagate momentus drive, seatools is showing bad sectors and has been running for hours. obviously windows broke. customer claims not dropped but the corner of the screen hinge is cracked. (Dell, my old one ) question ( for Tim I guess ) is dropping a logical conclusion for these errors ? repairable or is RMA the only option ? Already told the customer the chances of recovering data is slim at best. drive is under warranty, 5 year I think . Fred -- Tallyho ! ]:8) Taglines below ! -- You tell 'em Manicurist, I've been trimmed.
Re: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed
Sweet! Brian Weeden wrote: A good friend of mine in Vienna, VA (just SW of DC) got a new service from Verizon. They ran fiber to his house and it is a souped up DSL-like service. 16 mbits for $50 a month. Me want...
RE: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
> > > > Yeah I think that was the point, it meant that they COULD > purchase the > > cache if they wanted which freed up production capacity for > the core. > > This then drove down costs as they would have been able to get far > > more actual processors on a wafer than if it was > integrated. Also at > > the time the packages that were being used in the industry > were very > > expensive for larger dies compared to the ones we are using now. > > > > It may very well be that the marginal cost for a larger die > was greater then > than it is now (largely due to the move to 12" wafers, I > imagine), but let > us not undervalue just how huge the PPro core was, even > compared to today's > dual core chips. > > The 350nm PPro with 512KB cache was 438 sq.mm, vs. the largest chips > available today: the Pentium D dual core at 206 sq.mm and the > X2 Toledo > (2x1MB) at 199 sq.mm. > > The PPro was an extremely costly-to-manufacture beast, and > still would be > today. > > Greg > Absolutely. I wish I still had some of my old copies of Byte magazine (it's a real shame they stopped printing it, I loved it). I remember when the PPro was the cover story, I was at school at the time and a few of us were huddles round Byte amazed at the images, specs and technical breakdown they did of it. :)
RE: [H] NVidia firewall
xp's fw does both just isn't very communicative but I have had it pop up messages for outbound and what do you want to do, setting for that some where. NVidia is HW based and the only one I messed with I turned off cause it was causing connection problems. I just run behind a good router and use windows FW FWIW. fp At 10:34 AM 9/19/2005, Bobby Heid Poked the stick with: I do not think that you should use the XP firewall. IIRC, it has to do with either it only blocks incoming or outgoing, I can't remember which one. Whereas most other software firewalls can block in both directions. Bobby -- Tallyho ! ]:8) Taglines below ! -- Nothing works, and nobody cares.
Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
Uhh...unless I am just completely off base (and I don't think I am), Intel PURCHASED most of the cache that was placed on the PII Slot cartridges. Therefore, it wasn't an issue of yield improvements at all. Even then, the PII's used two 256KB cache chips, not a single 512KB chip. Greg Yeah I think that was the point, it meant that they COULD purchase the cache if they wanted which freed up production capacity for the core. This then drove down costs as they would have been able to get far more actual processors on a wafer than if it was integrated. Also at the time the packages that were being used in the industry were very expensive for larger dies compared to the ones we are using now. It may very well be that the marginal cost for a larger die was greater then than it is now (largely due to the move to 12" wafers, I imagine), but let us not undervalue just how huge the PPro core was, even compared to today's dual core chips. The 350nm PPro with 512KB cache was 438 sq.mm, vs. the largest chips available today: the Pentium D dual core at 206 sq.mm and the X2 Toledo (2x1MB) at 199 sq.mm. The PPro was an extremely costly-to-manufacture beast, and still would be today. Greg
RE: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
> Uhh...unless I am just completely off base (and I don't think > I am), Intel PURCHASED most of the cache that was placed on > the PII Slot cartridges. > Therefore, it wasn't an issue of yield improvements at all. > > Even then, the PII's used two 256KB cache chips, not a single > 512KB chip. > > Greg > Yeah I think that was the point, it meant that they COULD purchase the cache if they wanted which freed up production capacity for the core. This then drove down costs as they would have been able to get far more actual processors on a wafer than if it was integrated. Also at the time the packages that were being used in the industry were very expensive for larger dies compared to the ones we are using now.
Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
Uhh...unless I am just completely off base (and I don't think I am), Intel PURCHASED most of the cache that was placed on the PII Slot cartridges. Therefore, it wasn't an issue of yield improvements at all. Even then, the PII's used two 256KB cache chips, not a single 512KB chip. Greg - Original Message - From: "Eli Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Hardware List" Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards It wasn't so much the die size overall as the PII had a larger die size overall (had a larger L2 cache then most PPros). It was that the large single die was harder to produce then 2 smaller dies. With the PPro if there was a problem with the CPU or the L2 cache both parts hard to be thrown out, but with the PII they could be tested individually so didn't have to throw out both. So the real reason was more to improve the yield more then decrease the cost of a CPU. - Original Message - True. However, the size of the die was too large to make it economical for anything but server usage. (die size = $$$) Plus, the Pentium Pro's cache, as you state, was not integrated into the core so much as it was slapped into the die package. Therefore, it couldn't achieve the same benefits of a huge bus width and low latency that true integrated cache (first on the Celeron A of all things...) brought. Greg
RE: [H] NVidia firewall
XP firewall is virtually useless. Nvidia's is not a normal software firewall, it operates as a hardware function of the southbridge; and intercepts before windows deals with it based on the settings you program in. The "high" security "anti-hacking" options take too much tweaking, IMHO, but one of the other options (default configuration, I believe it is) is very good. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thane Sherrington (S) Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:27 AM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: [H] NVidia firewall What is the best setting for the NVidia firewall for those of us who don't want to be bothered by messages everytime we try to access the Internet? Is anti-hacking worth using, or is it better to just use the Windows firewall? T
RE: [H] Label dvd discs
stomper is surething I'll check out sam's club, even with the full face bug I want to do this and is one reason I only buy the silk screened disks. guess the printer needs to be installed first to find this option fp thanks At 07:56 PM 9/18/2005, rls Poked the stick with: Fred, Sams Club has em for $70 Dont know about Stomper but with SureThing you select a cd/dvd printing printer under card stock selection. Well if you dont care, the full screen images will still print to the larger ringed versions, you will just loose that detail. I have some full face dvds I am pretty sure they are Fuji -- Tallyho ! ]:8) Taglines below ! -- Nothing works, and nobody cares.
Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
It wasn't so much the die size overall as the PII had a larger die size overall (had a larger L2 cache then most PPros). It was that the large single die was harder to produce then 2 smaller dies. With the PPro if there was a problem with the CPU or the L2 cache both parts hard to be thrown out, but with the PII they could be tested individually so didn't have to throw out both. So the real reason was more to improve the yield more then decrease the cost of a CPU. - Original Message - True. However, the size of the die was too large to make it economical for anything but server usage. (die size = $$$) Plus, the Pentium Pro's cache, as you state, was not integrated into the core so much as it was slapped into the die package. Therefore, it couldn't achieve the same benefits of a huge bus width and low latency that true integrated cache (first on the Celeron A of all things...) brought. Greg
RE: [H] NVidia firewall
I don't know about an NVIDIA firewall (I use Sygate Personal Firewall Pro), but most software firewalls have some sort of setting that says something to the effect of "remember my answer for this." That way, once you ok a program, it will stay ok'd. I do not think that you should use the XP firewall. IIRC, it has to do with either it only blocks incoming or outgoing, I can't remember which one. Whereas most other software firewalls can block in both directions. Bobby -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thane Sherrington (S) Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:27 PM To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: [H] NVidia firewall What is the best setting for the NVidia firewall for those of us who don't want to be bothered by messages everytime we try to access the Internet? Is anti-hacking worth using, or is it better to just use the Windows firewall? T
Re: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed
Mark Dodge wrote: Wow, I thought that cable was fast but 7153 according to DSLreports. Went from 3 meg DSL in Phoenix to 6 meg cable in Seattle, me likes. You probably pay twice as much too. My 3 Mb DSL is only $24.99. Gary VanderMolen
Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
True. However, the size of the die was too large to make it economical for anything but server usage. (die size = $$$) Plus, the Pentium Pro's cache, as you state, was not integrated into the core so much as it was slapped into the die package. Therefore, it couldn't achieve the same benefits of a huge bus width and low latency that true integrated cache (first on the Celeron A of all things...) brought. It was actually pretty close. The PPro clock for clock blew away the PII - the Celeron A and PIII with integrated cache was of course a bit faster, but not revolutionary. Those chips simple carried on where the PPro left off. The P2 was in many respects a step backwards, especially for servers back then. We talk about how the PPro was insanely expensive to manufacture and ironically the move to integrated cache with newer gen chips was not only for performance reasons, but for cost savings as well. Yes, the PII without on-die or integrated cache suffered from an even smaller bus width and frequency to cache than the on-die but not integrated cache did. With process sizes as big as they were (450 and 350nm), it wasn't economical to put large amounts of cache in the processor die. However, with 250nm and smaller processes, the die size was shrunk enough to make it economically viable. If the die is reasonable, it is certainly a lot cheaper to integrated it into the core than to make a processor 'package' a la Slot 1. The PII was a definite step backwards with regard to the PPro. However, it was necessary to keep processor costs down. As I'm sure you recall, the PPro was marketed soley as a server chip. However, the PII was for desktops and workstations, and therefore had to fit in price points less than that of the PPro. With the gigantic die size of the PPro at that time, it simply wasn't possible. Ideally, Intel would have continued the PPro, and gave it a 350/250nm process shrink and maintained it as the server line, but clearly they didn't. :) Greg
Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
From: "Greg Sevart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Hardware List To: "The Hardware List" Subject: Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:18:41 -0500 The slot design was useful for only one thing--getting the cache closer to the CPU core so a faster bus could be use. Once cache was integrated into the die, the need for slots were out. Tidbit: The Pentium Pro actually had an integrated L2 cache (well, the cpu and cache were in the same package) and used socket 8. It was released some two years before any Slot-1 Pentium II was shipped. True. However, the size of the die was too large to make it economical for anything but server usage. (die size = $$$) Plus, the Pentium Pro's cache, as you state, was not integrated into the core so much as it was slapped into the die package. Therefore, it couldn't achieve the same benefits of a huge bus width and low latency that true integrated cache (first on the Celeron A of all things...) brought. It was actually pretty close. The PPro clock for clock blew away the PII - the Celeron A and PIII with integrated cache was of course a bit faster, but not revolutionary. Those chips simple carried on where the PPro left off. The P2 was in many respects a step backwards, especially for servers back then. We talk about how the PPro was insanely expensive to manufacture and ironically the move to integrated cache with newer gen chips was not only for performance reasons, but for cost savings as well.
[H] NVidia firewall
What is the best setting for the NVidia firewall for those of us who don't want to be bothered by messages everytime we try to access the Internet? Is anti-hacking worth using, or is it better to just use the Windows firewall? T
Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
The slot design was useful for only one thing--getting the cache closer to the CPU core so a faster bus could be use. Once cache was integrated into the die, the need for slots were out. Tidbit: The Pentium Pro actually had an integrated L2 cache (well, the cpu and cache were in the same package) and used socket 8. It was released some two years before any Slot-1 Pentium II was shipped. True. However, the size of the die was too large to make it economical for anything but server usage. (die size = $$$) Plus, the Pentium Pro's cache, as you state, was not integrated into the core so much as it was slapped into the die package. Therefore, it couldn't achieve the same benefits of a huge bus width and low latency that true integrated cache (first on the Celeron A of all things...) brought. Greg
Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
- Original Message - From: "Greg Sevart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Hardware List" Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards Then you haven't used it enough. While it may seem as though the pins should be harder to bend, in reality, they bend extremely easily, and you WILL DESTROY your socket after a few insertions REGARDLESS of how much care you Thanks for the tip. This tip will help many OEM's etc. cut back on the number of bare bones units they build up and other procedures that set up the scenario for having to change a CPU. With the pins on the CPU I still avoided as many CPU changes as possible. Most of my CPU changes were caused by changing motherboards, to using the pins more than once is a mute issue in these changes. If the life of the pins is 3 CPU installations, I will be ok. Over 90% of my units never experience one CPU change unless I am installing a new motherboard. It seems you agree that Intel really pulled a slick trick this time. Chuck
Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
From: "Greg Sevart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Hardware List To: "The Hardware List" Subject: Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 07:25:10 -0500 The slot design was useful for only one thing--getting the cache closer to the CPU core so a faster bus could be use. Once cache was integrated into the die, the need for slots were out. Tidbit: The Pentium Pro actually had an integrated L2 cache (well, the cpu and cache were in the same package) and used socket 8. It was released some two years before any Slot-1 Pentium II was shipped.
Re: [H] Comcast Cable's Speed
A good friend of mine in Vienna, VA (just SW of DC) got a new service from Verizon. They ran fiber to his house and it is a souped up DSL-like service. 16 mbits for $50 a month. Me want... -- Brian
Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
The slot design was useful for only one thing--getting the cache closer to the CPU core so a faster bus could be use. Once cache was integrated into the die, the need for slots were out. Slots are... 1. more expensive to manufacture 2. more likely to have a connection failure 3. harder to develop adequate cooling solutions for today's hot processors 4. increase trace length dramatically, which limit bus frequencies Greg - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 7:23 AM Subject: RE: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards The only thing that this has going for it is that motherboards are generally cheaper then CPUs. Still don't like it thoughWhile on the subjectwas there a reason to stop using the slot designs? Seemed like a damn good idea at the time, although didn't last for long. Regards, Jason Tozer Database Analyst London Ext 1131 - 3SC.5 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Greg Sevart Sent: 19 September 2005 13:14 To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards I think it is harder to bend pins that are on the motherboard. With the pins on the CPU it can easily get bumped or dropped on its way from the box to the socket. Also it is easy for your fingers to bend the pins as you are holding the CPU if you are not extremely careful and conscious of how close they are to the edges you are holding. The motherboard (and CPU) have plastic protective covers. You do not remove the pins cover from the motherboard until you are ready to install the CPU. Just as ZIF sockets means zero insertion force, you use no more than the force of gravity to pull the CPU down into a recess with 4 walls to align it and keep it in proper alignment. The CPU has a gold color triangle for proper orientation. I feel that if you professionally install the CPU with the same attention to detail that you install CPU's into ZIF sockets, it is actually easier. Then you haven't used it enough. While it may seem as though the pins should be harder to bend, in reality, they bend extremely easily, and you WILL DESTROY your socket after a few insertions REGARDLESS of how much care you take. Read around the web--people that have installed thousands of processors are finding LGA775 sockets rarely live for more than a handful of insertion cycles. Greg *** This message and any attachment are confidential and may be privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete this message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any other person. For further information about Clifford Chance please see our website at http://www.cliffordchance.com or refer to any Clifford Chance office.
RE: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
The only thing that this has going for it is that motherboards are generally cheaper then CPUs. Still don't like it thoughWhile on the subjectwas there a reason to stop using the slot designs? Seemed like a damn good idea at the time, although didn't last for long. Regards, Jason Tozer Database Analyst London Ext 1131 - 3SC.5 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Greg Sevart Sent: 19 September 2005 13:14 To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards > I think it is harder to bend pins that are on the motherboard. With the > pins on the CPU it can easily get bumped or dropped on its way from the > box to the socket. Also it is easy for your fingers to bend the pins as > you are holding the CPU if you are not extremely careful and conscious of > how close they are to the edges you are holding. The motherboard (and CPU) > have plastic protective covers. You do not remove the pins cover from the > motherboard until you are ready to install the CPU. Just as ZIF sockets > means zero insertion force, you use no more than the force of gravity to > pull the CPU down into a recess with 4 walls to align it and keep it in > proper alignment. The CPU has a gold color triangle for proper > orientation. I feel that if you professionally install the CPU with the > same attention to detail that you install CPU's into ZIF sockets, it is > actually easier. > Then you haven't used it enough. While it may seem as though the pins should be harder to bend, in reality, they bend extremely easily, and you WILL DESTROY your socket after a few insertions REGARDLESS of how much care you take. Read around the web--people that have installed thousands of processors are finding LGA775 sockets rarely live for more than a handful of insertion cycles. Greg *** This message and any attachment are confidential and may be privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete this message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any other person. For further information about Clifford Chance please see our website at http://www.cliffordchance.com or refer to any Clifford Chance office.
Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
I think it is harder to bend pins that are on the motherboard. With the pins on the CPU it can easily get bumped or dropped on its way from the box to the socket. Also it is easy for your fingers to bend the pins as you are holding the CPU if you are not extremely careful and conscious of how close they are to the edges you are holding. The motherboard (and CPU) have plastic protective covers. You do not remove the pins cover from the motherboard until you are ready to install the CPU. Just as ZIF sockets means zero insertion force, you use no more than the force of gravity to pull the CPU down into a recess with 4 walls to align it and keep it in proper alignment. The CPU has a gold color triangle for proper orientation. I feel that if you professionally install the CPU with the same attention to detail that you install CPU's into ZIF sockets, it is actually easier. Then you haven't used it enough. While it may seem as though the pins should be harder to bend, in reality, they bend extremely easily, and you WILL DESTROY your socket after a few insertions REGARDLESS of how much care you take. Read around the web--people that have installed thousands of processors are finding LGA775 sockets rarely live for more than a handful of insertion cycles. Greg
Re: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards
- Original Message - From: "Chris Reeves" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Hardware List'" Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 3:50 PM Subject: RE: [H] New Intel 775 Pin Motherboards It doesn't. It just diverts pressure on OEMs, as it makes it far easier to bend pins (which are now in the MB) during the installation phase. I think it is harder to bend pins that are on the motherboard. With the pins on the CPU it can easily get bumped or dropped on its way from the box to the socket. Also it is easy for your fingers to bend the pins as you are holding the CPU if you are not extremely careful and conscious of how close they are to the edges you are holding. The motherboard (and CPU) have plastic protective covers. You do not remove the pins cover from the motherboard until you are ready to install the CPU. Just as ZIF sockets means zero insertion force, you use no more than the force of gravity to pull the CPU down into a recess with 4 walls to align it and keep it in proper alignment. The CPU has a gold color triangle for proper orientation. I feel that if you professionally install the CPU with the same attention to detail that you install CPU's into ZIF sockets, it is actually easier. Do not touch the pins or any of the 775 contacts on the CPU. Avoiding touching the pins is like avoiding touching the ceiling in your house while just walking around the room. You would have to go out of your way to touch the pins. Chuck
RE: [H] Going dual core CPU - suggestions?
Not to mention all the X2 3800+'s seem to be doing easy overclocks. Running mine at 10 x 250 at the moment with the retail heatsink/fan instead of the stock 10 x 200. Most seem to make 10 x 240 with stock voltage as well. Regards, Jason Tozer Database Analyst London Ext 1131 - 3SC.5 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jerry Jones Sent: 18 September 2005 16:29 To: The Hardware List Subject: Re: [H] Going dual core CPU - suggestions? You are probably right about my usage and dual core. For about the same price as the X2 3800+ I could get the San Diego 4000+, but that does not seem like a huge jump in speed. I am going to search for some reviews of the two processors and see what the performance difference is. I am curious about dual core and would like to play with one so I am still leaning toward the X2. I am glad to hear you have found the NF4 a solid platform. Did you install the nVidia IDE drivers or are you just using the Windows drivers? What about the nVidia firewall? Any other tips for me when I begin my build? Thanks, Jerry - Original Message - From: "Greg Sevart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Hardware List" Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [H] Going dual core CPU - suggestions? >I think that for your usage, dual core would be a waste of money. Get a >NF4U/NF4SLI s939 board, and a Venice or San Diego chip. 2GB would be nice, >but with 2x1GB sticks, forget any memory overclocking. > > A dual-core/SMP platform is really only useful if you do a lot of stuff > that benefits from multithreading (none of which you mention do) or do > heavy multitasking (3 programs is nothing--I average about 20-40 windows > open on my X2). I think you would experience better performance from a > fast single core solution at this time. > > As far as NF4 problems, this is probably the most solid platform I've ever > had. (NF4U on the MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum board). > > Greg > > - Original Message - > From: "Jerry Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "The Hardware List" > Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 10:16 AM > Subject: [H] Going dual core CPU - suggestions? > > >>I am planning an upgrade to my main PC which is currently running: >> Abit IC7-MAX3 >> Pentium 4 - 2.4Ghz (oc'd to 3.1) >> 1GB Ram >> Radeon 9800 Pro >> >> Going to put those parts in the kids PC and am thinking I would like to >> go dual core. Would like to do some overclocking and I spend most of the >> time using the PC for email, internet, MS Office, DVArchive (shows form >> my ReplayTVs), burning CD/DVDs, and some gaming. Typically I have more >> than 3 programs open and running so I figure I might benefit a little >> from a dual core while multitasking. Have been reading a lot on the >> various forums such as Anadtech, HardOCP, etc. and it seems like the >> general consensus is that the AMD X2 3800+ is the best choice right now, >> but I am not opposed to Intel. Planning on using 2GB of RAM and just a >> single video card for the time being but am considering an SLI board just >> so I would have the option in the future. >> >> At one point I had thought I would go with the X2 3800+ and the Abit AN8 >> Fatality SLI . I have had good luck with my MAX3 and other Abits in the >> past, but there seems to be lots of little problems with the board on the >> forums. So I looked at the DFI and ASUS offerings, but they too seem to >> have problems. Then I think that maybe it would be simpler to go with a >> Intel 820 or 830 and not have to deal with the NF4 software problems >> (many say the nVidia IDE driver, firewall, or the AMD cool and quiet >> software all can cause problems). I do try to take what I see in the >> forums with a grain of salt, I realize that most people post when they >> have a problem. >> >> So, help me choos the following: >> >> dual core CPU: >> Motherboard: >> Video ($200-300 range): >> RAM 2 x 1GB: >> >> >> Jerry >> >> >> > > > > *** This message and any attachment are confidential and may be privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete this message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any other person. For further information about Clifford Chance please see our website at http://www.cliffordchance.com or refer to any Clifford Chance office.
