Re: [H] Gas prices

[Stan Zaske]

I apologize to everyone for starting this thread with my wise crack 
about growing female Hemp and selling the buds to Canada. Have a nice 
weekend!


Gary Udstrand wrote:


Are you reading the same thread?  When you crawl down off of your high
horse you can explain to me where I say I care how many people are
smoking pot?  My statement was in the context that PUNISHMENT DETERS
USAGE.   You are entitled to your opinion but assuming so you would 
also have to believe that our laws have no effect on crime rate.Do

you really believe that?   Did you parents ever wash your mouth out with
soap for swearing?  Did it make you think twice about dropping the f
bomb in front of them?   Why?  Did the soap make you "get over it"? 


-Gary



Julian Hale said the following on 8/26/2005 6:51 PM:

 


No I don't think that the drug laws have a significant effect on
consumption.  I know quite a few people who indulge in a variety of
drugs on a regular basis, regardless of the laws.  I also know of high
school students getting high on OTC drugs, which is certainly worse
than smoking a little weed, and that is a direct negative result of
current drug laws.

Assuming for a moment that you are correct, and 2x as many people
start smoking MJ, who gives a shit?  The effects are not particularly
different than drinking alcohol, except that one is a lot less prone
to go out and get into trouble.  The ultimate question, however, is
what business is it of yours if your neighbor smokes pot?  In what way
does it harm you?

Julian

PS: It's not fear of reprisal, it's just that they got over it. 
Almost every single person I know has smoked weed at some point in

their lives.  Some give it up, some don't.  Some use it responsibly,
some don't.  None of them seem particularly hurt by it.

At 11:25 PM 8/25/2005, you wrote:

   


I am none of the below and thanks for making it about me.  I always
enjoy ad hominem attacks, it is a sign of a weak position.  The last
thing I believe is that the government is always right, you could not be
further from the truth.  I am also not the product of any warped era
(whatever that is).I am also not an addict, never have been.

I will ask you the same thing, you don't think punishment does not deter
drug use?  That is just plain silly.  If mary jane were legal and sold
at the local drug store there would be at least 2x as many people
smoking it.  You think some of those who are not smoking might be
abstaining because of fear of reprisals?  LOL

-Gary
 



   




 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Stan Zaske]

State-assisted suicide? Sounds like my kind of place to live!

Hayes Elkins wrote:




From: Thane Sherrington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:48:53 -0300

At 04:11 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:


Several.  China is a lot better off now, isn't it?



I'm not sure.  Haven't been there, but I've heard their economy is 
doing alright.  Plus China isn't really a modern, civilized country, 
so it's hard to compare to the US or Canada.  The Netherlands seems 
to be doing ok.


And that's one, not several.  Please give me some concrete examples 
of harsh drug laws having the desired effect over the long term.



Saudi Arabia - caught with drugs? Bye bye head.

It's also a GREAT place to live.

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Stan Zaske]

Tell that to the thousands of small boys raped by sexually frustrated 
and sex-obsessed Catholic priests!


Gary Udstrand wrote:


Big difference, without food and water you die.  Without sex you become
a nerd.  LOL

-Gary



Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 12:25 PM:

 


The time following puberty is the time period when a person is the
horniest in their lives! All part of God's plan to provide for our
reproduction. Deny a person food and see how warped their behavior
becomes. Take away someones water and all they'll think about is
getting something to drink. That's why we need to provide our children
with condoms so they can get the sex they crave and help prevent
disease and unwanted pregnancy. Common sense my friend.

FORC5 wrote:

   


not a good reason to make these products legal. same argument for
giving kids condoms.
a society needs standards to live by
for the live of me I can not figure out why someone would consume a
product that they have NO FUCKING IDEA what kind of standards where
used in manufacture. These same ppl probably want only organic food.
go figure.
fp

At 07:40 AM 8/25/2005, Thane Sherrington Poked the stick with:

 


At 11:31 AM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:

   


What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
drugs solved any social ills?
 



Can you name one example where making it illegal solved any social
ills?  All anti-drug laws have gotten the US and Canada are huge
police budgets and drugs on the streets.  If they can get drugs into
prisons (supposedly secure facilities) then we can't stop them
outside prisons.

T 
   


--
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
Sometimes, the only solution is to find a new problem.



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/81 - Release Date:
8/24/2005


 




 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Stan Zaske]

Where I work half the people use pot and crack! In downtown Peoria, IL. 
drugs especially crack cocaine is easily available 24/7 and in the small 
surrounding towns speed is also rampant. Hows that for drug enforcement?


Gary Udstrand wrote:


You are making a HUGE assumption, that being that enforcement doesn't do
anything.  Most believe that the enforcement is working the way it
should.  It is a deterrent and as such is doing its job.

-Gary



j m g said the following on 8/25/2005 11:45 AM:

 


But how many billions are spent on enforcement that doesn't get
anywhere.  Why even bother busting kids with a cigarette's worth of
pot?  Your taxes are already going to the 'war on drugs' and that
money isn't being wisely spent.

On 8/25/05, Gary VanderMolen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


   


The biggest drug problem these days is ICE or crystal meth made from
cold pills and second a bumper crop from our buddies in Afghanistan.
Neither should be tolerated and those found using should be helped
medically, not jailed.


   


Do you want your taxes raised in order to pay for the repetitive
medical treatment of those who abuse themselves willfully? I don't.
I don't see any free alcohol abuse treatment centers either.
Remember, those in jail for drug abuse are but the tip of the
iceberg. People need to take ownership of their own problems and
learn self control. Don't expect kid-glove treatment on my dime.

Gary VanderMolen


  

 




   




 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[warpmedia]

LOL!!

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

- Original Message - From: "Gary Udstrand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

you really believe that?   Did you parents ever wash your mouth out with
soap for swearing?  Did it make you think twice about dropping the f
bomb in front of them?   Why?  Did the soap make you "get over it"?



It was best to get your mouth washed out after the trip to the woodshed, 
so they would have to do that only once.

Re: [H] Gas prices

[warpmedia]

Lol, and he wonders why I posted the ABCD list of trying to pin down 
where he's coming from.


Face it Gary you are the only one here still arguing this and what you 
are arguing I know not short of trying to prove that if it was legal 2x 
as many would smoke it and punishment deters usage. TO which we have 
responded with who cares and no it doesn't. So what is your point of 
argument then?


For the record I had many of these done to me as a kid & it made me MORE 
rebellious as is the norm for non-sheep who do what they feel is right 
(i.e. by what real definition swearing wrong?) in spite of being 
punished for it. So the censors can go FRACK them selves all the 
FRELLING day, words are different but I am still meaning FUCK! Come wash 
my mouth out!


Can we now discuss the meaning of life or are there any good hardware 
topics to talk about?



Gary Udstrand wrote:

Are you reading the same thread?  When you crawl down off of your high
horse you can explain to me where I say I care how many people are
smoking pot?  My statement was in the context that PUNISHMENT DETERS
USAGE.   You are entitled to your opinion but assuming so you would 
also have to believe that our laws have no effect on crime rate.Do

you really believe that?   Did you parents ever wash your mouth out with
soap for swearing?  Did it make you think twice about dropping the f
bomb in front of them?   Why?  Did the soap make you "get over it"? 


-Gary



Julian Hale said the following on 8/26/2005 6:51 PM:



No I don't think that the drug laws have a significant effect on
consumption.  I know quite a few people who indulge in a variety of
drugs on a regular basis, regardless of the laws.  I also know of high
school students getting high on OTC drugs, which is certainly worse
than smoking a little weed, and that is a direct negative result of
current drug laws.

Assuming for a moment that you are correct, and 2x as many people
start smoking MJ, who gives a shit?  The effects are not particularly
different than drinking alcohol, except that one is a lot less prone
to go out and get into trouble.  The ultimate question, however, is
what business is it of yours if your neighbor smokes pot?  In what way
does it harm you?

Julian

PS: It's not fear of reprisal, it's just that they got over it. 
Almost every single person I know has smoked weed at some point in

their lives.  Some give it up, some don't.  Some use it responsibly,
some don't.  None of them seem particularly hurt by it.

At 11:25 PM 8/25/2005, you wrote:



I am none of the below and thanks for making it about me.  I always
enjoy ad hominem attacks, it is a sign of a weak position.  The last
thing I believe is that the government is always right, you could not be
further from the truth.  I am also not the product of any warped era
(whatever that is).I am also not an addict, never have been.

I will ask you the same thing, you don't think punishment does not deter
drug use?  That is just plain silly.  If mary jane were legal and sold
at the local drug store there would be at least 2x as many people
smoking it.  You think some of those who are not smoking might be
abstaining because of fear of reprisals?  LOL

-Gary

Re: [H] Gas prices

[chuck]

- Original Message - 
From: "Gary Udstrand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "The Hardware List" 
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices



you really believe that?   Did you parents ever wash your mouth out with
soap for swearing?  Did it make you think twice about dropping the f
bomb in front of them?   Why?  Did the soap make you "get over it"?



It was best to get your mouth washed out after the trip to the woodshed, so 
they would have to do that only once.


Chuck 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

Are you reading the same thread?  When you crawl down off of your high
horse you can explain to me where I say I care how many people are
smoking pot?  My statement was in the context that PUNISHMENT DETERS
USAGE.   You are entitled to your opinion but assuming so you would 
also have to believe that our laws have no effect on crime rate.Do
you really believe that?   Did you parents ever wash your mouth out with
soap for swearing?  Did it make you think twice about dropping the f
bomb in front of them?   Why?  Did the soap make you "get over it"? 

-Gary



Julian Hale said the following on 8/26/2005 6:51 PM:

> No I don't think that the drug laws have a significant effect on
> consumption.  I know quite a few people who indulge in a variety of
> drugs on a regular basis, regardless of the laws.  I also know of high
> school students getting high on OTC drugs, which is certainly worse
> than smoking a little weed, and that is a direct negative result of
> current drug laws.
>
> Assuming for a moment that you are correct, and 2x as many people
> start smoking MJ, who gives a shit?  The effects are not particularly
> different than drinking alcohol, except that one is a lot less prone
> to go out and get into trouble.  The ultimate question, however, is
> what business is it of yours if your neighbor smokes pot?  In what way
> does it harm you?
>
> Julian
>
> PS: It's not fear of reprisal, it's just that they got over it. 
> Almost every single person I know has smoked weed at some point in
> their lives.  Some give it up, some don't.  Some use it responsibly,
> some don't.  None of them seem particularly hurt by it.
>
> At 11:25 PM 8/25/2005, you wrote:
>
>> I am none of the below and thanks for making it about me.  I always
>> enjoy ad hominem attacks, it is a sign of a weak position.  The last
>> thing I believe is that the government is always right, you could not be
>> further from the truth.  I am also not the product of any warped era
>> (whatever that is).I am also not an addict, never have been.
>>
>> I will ask you the same thing, you don't think punishment does not deter
>> drug use?  That is just plain silly.  If mary jane were legal and sold
>> at the local drug store there would be at least 2x as many people
>> smoking it.  You think some of those who are not smoking might be
>> abstaining because of fear of reprisals?  LOL
>>
>> -Gary
>
>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Julian Hale]

No I don't think that the drug laws have a significant effect on 
consumption.  I know quite a few people who indulge in a variety of 
drugs on a regular basis, regardless of the laws.  I also know of 
high school students getting high on OTC drugs, which is certainly 
worse than smoking a little weed, and that is a direct negative 
result of current drug laws.


Assuming for a moment that you are correct, and 2x as many people 
start smoking MJ, who gives a shit?  The effects are not particularly 
different than drinking alcohol, except that one is a lot less prone 
to go out and get into trouble.  The ultimate question, however, is 
what business is it of yours if your neighbor smokes pot?  In what 
way does it harm you?


Julian

PS: It's not fear of reprisal, it's just that they got over 
it.  Almost every single person I know has smoked weed at some point 
in their lives.  Some give it up, some don't.  Some use it 
responsibly, some don't.  None of them seem particularly hurt by it.


At 11:25 PM 8/25/2005, you wrote:

I am none of the below and thanks for making it about me.  I always
enjoy ad hominem attacks, it is a sign of a weak position.  The last
thing I believe is that the government is always right, you could not be
further from the truth.  I am also not the product of any warped era
(whatever that is).I am also not an addict, never have been.

I will ask you the same thing, you don't think punishment does not deter
drug use?  That is just plain silly.  If mary jane were legal and sold
at the local drug store there would be at least 2x as many people
smoking it.  You think some of those who are not smoking might be
abstaining because of fear of reprisals?  LOL

-Gary

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Julian Hale]

Me?  I thought you were the condescending one.  Anyway, go to 
walmart, costco, etc. and look at the price of generic drugs.  You 
can get 200 generic excedrine for $4.  400 generic aleve for 
~$8.  Generic claritin is similarly priced.  It's the drugs on patent 
that are ridiculously priced.  So again, regardless of whatever 
mythical difference you may try to cook up, alcohol prohibition and 
drug prohibition are exactly the same.  Ending said prohibition will 
have the same results as it did the last time.


Julian

At 11:15 PM 8/25/2005, you wrote:

Like all the other drugs from Pharmaceutical companies?  Now, that is a
good one.  Add to it all the taxes that are sure to be imposed and all
of the legal obligation that comes from being part of the delivery
chain.  Low prices are a dream.   BTW, do you always find it necessary
to be so condescending?

-Gary

Re: Foamy's Rants was Re: [H] Gas prices

[Al]

warpmedia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ah, the ever crazy Foamy's rants!
> 
> This guy is a comedy genius but should of had Pilz-E in on that one 
> also. LOL


Hooked on cream cheese  :)

Al

Foamy's Rants was Re: [H] Gas prices

[warpmedia]

Ah, the ever crazy Foamy's rants!

This guy is a comedy genius but should of had Pilz-E in on that one 
also. LOL


Al wrote:

See what foamy has to say:


http://www.illwillpress.com/drugs.html

a little humor,

Al

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Al]

See what foamy has to say:


http://www.illwillpress.com/drugs.html

a little humor,

Al

Re: [H] Gas prices

[j m g]

There's a difference between getting arrested for smoking something on
the front porch versus getting arrested for breaking down a door.

On 8/25/05, Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How many of those in jail for drugs are helpless Grandma's and
> teenagers?  Simple question, do the drug laws deter usage?  What else
> are they supposed to do?  I suppose we should eliminate laws against
> theft too since they would also fail your definition of success.
> 
> -Gary
> 
> 
> 
> j m g said the following on 8/25/2005 3:08 PM:
> 
> >I don't think locking up grandma and idiot teenagers is the mark of a
> >successful policy.
> >
> >On 8/25/05, Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Of course it is up to you to define successful?
> >>
> >>-Gary
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 3:07 PM:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>At 04:56 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> Your problem is you have failed to define working.  If by working you
> mean are they acting as a deterrent, then they are working.  If you are
> defining working as the complete eradication of drugs from society then
> you are creating nothing more than a canard.
> 
> 
> >>>I think working is pretty easy to define:  A free society where people
> >>>take responsibility for their actions, and tax dollars aren't wasted
> >>>on things that are completely unsuccessful.
> >>>
> >>>T
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 


-- 
-jmg

Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

Re: [H] Gas prices

[chuck]

- Original Message - 
From: "Gary Udstrand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "The Hardware List" 
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 2:25 AM
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices



drug use?  That is just plain silly.  If mary jane were legal and sold
at the local drug store there would be at least 2x as many people
smoking it.  You think some of those who are not smoking might be
abstaining because of fear of reprisals?  LOL



For conversation sake, smoking can refer to tobacco, also, along with the 
use of all illegal drugs.


For conversation sake, reprisals can refer to social and legal consequences.

Study any social group that disassociates those who choose to smoke any 
addictive or harmful substance or uses illegal drugs for recreational 
purposes. Although those on the inside of the group may misrepresent the 
percentage of members who violate the rules, a substantial number are 
violators. The point here is, although there are violators, their numbers 
are few, in relation to the number of those in a group who does not have 
these restrictions.


Yes, "some of those who are not smoking might be abstaining because of fear 
or reprisals" not just legal, but social, also.


If I am in the presence of a drug user who does not smoke their drug, I can 
be clean when I leave. If I am around smokers I am uncomfortable, breathing 
that poison. When I leave I discover my clothes are filled with smoke 
residue because they stink. Smokers have no concern for the people around 
them if they smoke in their presence. I have cut off friendships because of 
this. It is sad to be so addicted to a substance that you must use it in 
their presence and lose them as a friend.


Friends say, "Can't you respect my rights to smoke?" Best reply, "If and 
only if you can figure out a way to do it where I do not smell an offensive 
odor and leave with my clothes full of the substance."


Some have chosen to abstain from smoking around me even in their own home. 
Most have let their habit destroy our friendship. Other non smokers do not 
have to take such a harsh stand. It is your choice to live with it and keep 
your friends.


Chuck 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Thane Sherrington]

At 05:04 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:

Yes.


Ok, now I know you're just playing with us.  Good one.

T 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

I am none of the below and thanks for making it about me.  I always
enjoy ad hominem attacks, it is a sign of a weak position.  The last
thing I believe is that the government is always right, you could not be
further from the truth.  I am also not the product of any warped era
(whatever that is).I am also not an addict, never have been. 

I will ask you the same thing, you don't think punishment does not deter
drug use?  That is just plain silly.  If mary jane were legal and sold
at the local drug store there would be at least 2x as many people
smoking it.  You think some of those who are not smoking might be
abstaining because of fear of reprisals?  LOL

-Gary



warpmedia said the following on 8/25/2005 9:26 PM:

> Let me go out on a limb here and assume Gary is either:
>
> A. Old enough to be like my booze hound grandparents who thought the
> government was always right.
> B. Just young enough to be the product of their warped era.
> C. A staunch conservative (though so is William F Buckley & he gets it).
> D. A former addict who can only see things as none or abuse.
>
> Drugs are not hard to find & the laws serve to punish, not deter or help.
>
> Now I am out of this thread. Sorry again Jim, I was out all day &
> missed the action here. =)
>
> Gary Udstrand wrote:
>
>> Draw that conclusion for me Hayes.  You do not think that punishment
>> serves to prevent?  I also find it interesting that you would turn to
>> Liddy to try and find support for your position..
>>
>> -Gary
>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

Like all the other drugs from Pharmaceutical companies?  Now, that is a
good one.  Add to it all the taxes that are sure to be imposed and all
of the legal obligation that comes from being part of the delivery
chain.  Low prices are a dream.   BTW, do you always find it necessary
to be so condescending? 

-Gary



Julian Hale said the following on 8/25/2005 8:17 PM:

> There was also a thriving, legal business for MJ, opiates, cocaine,
> etc. before prohibition.  Again, no difference at all.  Legal drugs
> will come from, and this may shock you, pharmaceutical companies...
> since there is no patent, prices will be low.
>
> Julian
>
> At 12:52 PM 8/25/2005, you wrote:
>
>> Big difference, there was already a thriving legal business for alcohol
>> prior to prohibition.  So we make drugs legal, where are they going to
>> come from?
>>
>> -Gary
>
>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

I am aware of the history, I just think the situations are very
different regardless of what you might believe.  Think about it, the
drugs are legal do you think all the illegal fields will be plowed
under?  Do you think they will stop growing their crop?  Why would they? 

-Gary



Julian Hale said the following on 8/25/2005 8:14 PM:

> Crack open a history book.  What happened after the end of prohibition
> is what makes us think that ending drug/MJ prohibition will make them
> walk away.  The is no difference between the two.  However,
> excessively high taxation will create a black market.
>
> Julian
>
> At 12:24 PM 8/25/2005, you wrote:
>
>> That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by the
>> legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
>> organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar empires?  Tax
>> the drugs??  LOL.
>>
>> -Gary
>
>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[warpmedia]

Let me go out on a limb here and assume Gary is either:

A. Old enough to be like my booze hound grandparents who thought the 
government was always right.

B. Just young enough to be the product of their warped era.
C. A staunch conservative (though so is William F Buckley & he gets it).
D. A former addict who can only see things as none or abuse.

Drugs are not hard to find & the laws serve to punish, not deter or help.

Now I am out of this thread. Sorry again Jim, I was out all day & missed 
the action here. =)


Gary Udstrand wrote:

Draw that conclusion for me Hayes.  You do not think that punishment
serves to prevent?  I also find it interesting that you would turn to
Liddy to try and find support for your position..

-Gary

Re: [H] Gas prices

[warpmedia]

Last post (sorry Jim).

No I don't, but then I already am paying for the current non-productive 
war(s) effort, aren't I?


People are flawed, some more than others, so it's not as simple as "it's 
your fault, take it like a (wo)man" law or health policy.


Nuff BSing, when do we get that new 3D storage tech???

Gary VanderMolen wrote:
The biggest drug problem these days is ICE or crystal meth made from 
cold pills and second a bumper crop from our buddies in Afghanistan. 
Neither should be tolerated and those found using should be helped 
medically, not jailed.



Do you want your taxes raised in order to pay for the repetitive
medical treatment of those who abuse themselves willfully? I don't.
I don't see any free alcohol abuse treatment centers either.
Remember, those in jail for drug abuse are but the tip of the iceberg. 
People need to take ownership of their own problems and

learn self control. Don't expect kid-glove treatment on my dime.

Gary VanderMolen

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Julian Hale]

There was also a thriving, legal business for MJ, opiates, cocaine, 
etc. before prohibition.  Again, no difference at all.  Legal drugs 
will come from, and this may shock you, pharmaceutical companies... 
since there is no patent, prices will be low.


Julian

At 12:52 PM 8/25/2005, you wrote:

Big difference, there was already a thriving legal business for alcohol
prior to prohibition.  So we make drugs legal, where are they going to
come from?

-Gary

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Julian Hale]

Crack open a history book.  What happened after the end of 
prohibition is what makes us think that ending drug/MJ prohibition 
will make them walk away.  The is no difference between the 
two.  However, excessively high taxation will create a black market.


Julian

At 12:24 PM 8/25/2005, you wrote:

That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by the
legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar empires?  Tax
the drugs??  LOL.

-Gary

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Wayne Johnson]

At 06:32 PM 8/25/2005, Hayes Elkins typed:
Marijuana laws send a mixed signal because two drugs that are more 
harmful, alcohol and chemically treated tobacco, are allowed to be sold 
over the counter. You ever hear about a raging pot head beating his wife? 
No, but we see plenty of violent drug dealers, just like the moonshiners 
and mafia filth of yesteryear. Legitimate, government regulated commerce 
of their product takes away the criminal element.


Alcohol is regulated yet we still have problems with drunk drivers or is 
that not criminal enough? Oh the criminal element in producing & 
distributing? OBTW go to any bar in the land & you'll find some guy trying 
to get a gal drunk so he can get lucky & yes, that's technically that's 
illegal too. In Ohio the only time that would not be illegal is if one were 
getting their spouse drunk in order to get lucky. One local idiot used as a 
defense that she was somebody's wife therefore it should've been legal.


As far as turf wars go if it's not about drugs & women then it'll be 
something else.



--+--
   Wayne D. Johnson
Ashland, OH, USA 44805
 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Wayne Johnson]

At 03:30 PM 8/25/2005, Hayes Elkins typed:

What happened to moonshiners and the whiskey running mafia filth of the 30's?


The Kennedy's still have most all of their money..


--+--
   Wayne D. Johnson
Ashland, OH, USA 44805
 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Julian Hale]

On that note, in states where they have high taxation of tobacco, 
they are starting to see "illegal" tobacco sold, often coming from 
the middle east(supposedly was financing Saddam).  You make a product 
that is in demand illegal, and the illegal sorts fill that 
demand.  Make it legal, and you cut their legs out from under them.


Julian

At 01:04 AM 8/25/2005, you wrote:
BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in shops 
on the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta 
love British Columbia! 


What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't 
work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of 
"criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what 
happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's 
business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public 
education and rehab rather than interdiction and criminalization! 
Addictive behavior is associated with "self-esteem" and that's where 
our focus should be! So much for wisdom in government!

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Eli Allen]

Can you list out some of the advantages the criminal organizations have to 
produce drugs?


- Knowledge of how to produce them doesn't count as there is nothing secret 
there


- Production facilities don't really count as the main thing the criminal 
ones have to deal with is how to hide the facility


- Distribution network doesn't could as legal companies can go direct to the 
stores while the illegal enterprises have way too many middlemen.


Eli


- Original Message - 




Never said they would not.  You think the criminals will stand idly by
and let their market share be taken from them?  Even if they compete
using only legal methods they would be formidable.  Their operations
would also still be very valuable and profitable.  And that is my
point.  If anyone thinks making drugs legal will somehow destroy the
criminal enterprises in place today they are mistaken.  Or do you think
they will just walk away from the drug market because they are legal?

-Gary



Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 5:20 PM:


If drugs became legal the why won't others try to produce drugs?  The
way they are made is not a secret.  And if you don't have to hide what
you are doing they are easy to make.

Criminal operations are the only ones providing drugs now as they are
illegal to provide.

- Original Message -


And here I thought you had to grow them.  Anyways, you are missing the
point.  The criminal operations are the only ones capable of providing
the drugs to the legal market.  They will continue to make money and do
whatever nefarious things with it that they do now.  Again, legalizing
drugs will do nothing to remove the criminal element.

-Gary



Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 3:50 PM:


I'm going to go out on a limb and say some new companies will be
created or existing companies will expand to produce them.

I'm also going to make this wild assumption that people will rather
get their drugs cheaper at the store then pay more to someone sneaking
around a street corner.

Eli

- Original Message -


Big difference, there was already a thriving legal business for
alcohol
prior to prohibition.  So we make drugs legal, where are they going to
come from?

-Gary



Hayes Elkins said the following on 8/25/2005 2:30 PM:


What happened to moonshiners and the whiskey running mafia filth of
the 30's?



From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:24:10 -0500

That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by
the
legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar
empires?  Tax
the drugs??  LOL.

-Gary

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Hayes Elkins]

My father grew up in Bladen county - an unabashedly dry county in NC (until 
just recently). It had remained dry for over a century due to many factors, 
including a very influential and respected church lobby. However the 
resources to lobby constantly a county board from a church group requires 
outside monetary assistance. For almost 70 years, the biggest contributors 
to the anti-liquor lobby in Bladen county are the MOONSHINERS themselves! 
Think about it - why would they want an ABC store to take away their 
business?


Before Vick's vapor rub, that clear mason jar would be the home rememdy of 
choice for my father's side of the family.



From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:26:52 -0500

Never said they would not.  You think the criminals will stand idly by
and let their market share be taken from them?  Even if they compete
using only legal methods they would be formidable.  Their operations
would also still be very valuable and profitable.  And that is my
point.  If anyone thinks making drugs legal will somehow destroy the
criminal enterprises in place today they are mistaken.  Or do you think
they will just walk away from the drug market because they are legal?

-Gary



Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 5:20 PM:

> If drugs became legal the why won't others try to produce drugs?  The
> way they are made is not a secret.  And if you don't have to hide what
> you are doing they are easy to make.
>
> Criminal operations are the only ones providing drugs now as they are
> illegal to provide.
>
> - Original Message -
>
>> And here I thought you had to grow them.  Anyways, you are missing the
>> point.  The criminal operations are the only ones capable of providing
>> the drugs to the legal market.  They will continue to make money and do
>> whatever nefarious things with it that they do now.  Again, legalizing
>> drugs will do nothing to remove the criminal element.
>>
>> -Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 3:50 PM:
>>
>>> I'm going to go out on a limb and say some new companies will be
>>> created or existing companies will expand to produce them.
>>>
>>> I'm also going to make this wild assumption that people will rather
>>> get their drugs cheaper at the store then pay more to someone sneaking
>>> around a street corner.
>>>
>>> Eli
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>>
>>>> Big difference, there was already a thriving legal business for
>>>> alcohol
>>>> prior to prohibition.  So we make drugs legal, where are they going 
to

>>>> come from?
>>>>
>>>> -Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hayes Elkins said the following on 8/25/2005 2:30 PM:
>>>>
>>>>> What happened to moonshiners and the whiskey running mafia filth of
>>>>> the 30's?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>> Reply-To: The Hardware List 
>>>>>> To: The Hardware List 
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:24:10 -0500
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
>>>>>> organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar
>>>>>> empires?  Tax
>>>>>> the drugs??  LOL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Gary
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Hayes Elkins]

It was taken from a conversation about gun laws, which I follow closely 
because I'm a firm believer in the 2nd amendment. I liked the quote so much 
I use it often. Fits this tangent perfectly.


Violent behavior like murder and rape will always happen in spite of tough 
laws. That is because they are committed by inherently violent, deviant 
people. The best that law can do is prevent these violent people from 
committing more rape and murder by either locking them up or charbroiling 
them on old sparky. Everybody else has an instinctive moral code that 
perceives murder and rape as wrong without a law or fairy tale dictating so. 
It is my opinion that personal use of a substance in the privacy of your own 
home does not make you a violent person, nor a threat to anybody else accept 
maybe yourself. We already have plenty of laws in place to punish anybody 
for harm done on somebody else (or risking harm on somebody else) while 
under the influence of a substance.


Marijuana laws send a mixed signal because two drugs that are more harmful, 
alcohol and chemically treated tobacco, are allowed to be sold over the 
counter. You ever hear about a raging pot head beating his wife? No, but we 
see plenty of violent drug dealers, just like the moonshiners and mafia 
filth of yesteryear. Legitimate, government regulated commerce of their 
product takes away the criminal element.


You may want to inquire about how government provisioned marijuana is 
farmed. There is no involvement from the usual criminal elements of the 
illegal drug trade whatsoever.





From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:06:05 -0500

Draw that conclusion for me Hayes.  You do not think that punishment
serves to prevent?  I also find it interesting that you would turn to
Liddy to try and find support for your position..

-Gary



Hayes Elkins said the following on 8/25/2005 4:12 PM:

> "In general, laws *punish* crime - they do not *prevent* crime."
>
> - GG Liddy
>
>
>> From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: The Hardware List 
>> To: The Hardware List 
>> Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:44:03 -0500
>>
>> How many of those in jail for drugs are helpless Grandma's and
>> teenagers?  Simple question, do the drug laws deter usage?  What else
>> are they supposed to do?  I suppose we should eliminate laws against
>> theft too since they would also fail your definition of success.
>>
>> -Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> j m g said the following on 8/25/2005 3:08 PM:
>>
>> >I don't think locking up grandma and idiot teenagers is the mark of a
>> >successful policy.
>> >
>> >On 8/25/05, Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>Of course it is up to you to define successful?
>> >>
>> >>-Gary
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 3:07 PM:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>At 04:56 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>Your problem is you have failed to define working.  If by working
>> you
>> >>>>mean are they acting as a deterrent, then they are working.  If
>> you are
>> >>>>defining working as the complete eradication of drugs from
>> society then
>> >>>>you are creating nothing more than a canard.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>I think working is pretty easy to define:  A free society where
>> people
>> >>>take responsibility for their actions, and tax dollars aren't wasted
>> >>>on things that are completely unsuccessful.
>> >>>
>> >>>T
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Eli Allen]

Turf wars happen because those who sell illegal drugs claim certain areas as 
theirs and others are not allowed to deal in that area.  If drugs were made 
legal no one would buy drugs off the street and they would turn to stores 
and the like ending the turf wars (well most of them as I guess a few are 
gang related and have nothing to do with drugs)  When was the last time a 
target employee and Wal-Mart employee were in a shootout?


Other crimes take place because users need to steal to get the money to pay 
for very expensive drugs.  Making the drugs legal would decrease the cost of 
the drugs and so there would be less of a need to steal to get money for 
them.


Eli

- Original Message - 




Drug usage is unquestionably lower as a result of the laws in place,
which is their purpose.  They are working.   Turf wars take place
regardless of drugs as do shootings and other crimes.  You have no
evidence to suggest that making marijuana legal would remedy any of
these issues.

-Gary



Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 4:12 PM:


I'd define working as a decrease in the usage, decrease in ability to
get the drugs, decrease in crimes related to the drugs (stealing to
get money to pay for them, shootings over who has rights to a certain
turf for selling drugs, etc)  And this decrease should be significant,
especially for the area of related crimes as I'd argue those effect
others besides just the user to a much larger degree so are more
important.

Using that definition I'd say they aren't working

Eli

- Original Message - From: "Gary Udstrand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "The Hardware List" 
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices



Your problem is you have failed to define working.  If by working you
mean are they acting as a deterrent, then they are working.  If you are
defining working as the complete eradication of drugs from society then
you are creating nothing more than a canard.

-Gary



Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 2:58 PM:


At 04:44 PM 25/08/2005, Hayes Elkins wrote:


And that's one, not several.  Please give me some concrete examples
of harsh drug laws having the desired effect over the long term.




Saudi Arabia - caught with drugs? Bye bye head.

It's also a GREAT place to live.




I think that proves my point.  Harsh drug laws just don't work.
Unless you feel that leaving in an oppressive regime with no drugs or
alcohol is working.

T

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

Never said they would not.  You think the criminals will stand idly by
and let their market share be taken from them?  Even if they compete
using only legal methods they would be formidable.  Their operations
would also still be very valuable and profitable.  And that is my
point.  If anyone thinks making drugs legal will somehow destroy the
criminal enterprises in place today they are mistaken.  Or do you think
they will just walk away from the drug market because they are legal?

-Gary



Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 5:20 PM:

> If drugs became legal the why won't others try to produce drugs?  The
> way they are made is not a secret.  And if you don't have to hide what
> you are doing they are easy to make.
>
> Criminal operations are the only ones providing drugs now as they are
> illegal to provide.
>
> - Original Message -
>
>> And here I thought you had to grow them.  Anyways, you are missing the
>> point.  The criminal operations are the only ones capable of providing
>> the drugs to the legal market.  They will continue to make money and do
>> whatever nefarious things with it that they do now.  Again, legalizing
>> drugs will do nothing to remove the criminal element.
>>
>> -Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 3:50 PM:
>>
>>> I'm going to go out on a limb and say some new companies will be
>>> created or existing companies will expand to produce them.
>>>
>>> I'm also going to make this wild assumption that people will rather
>>> get their drugs cheaper at the store then pay more to someone sneaking
>>> around a street corner.
>>>
>>> Eli
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>>
>>>> Big difference, there was already a thriving legal business for
>>>> alcohol
>>>> prior to prohibition.  So we make drugs legal, where are they going to
>>>> come from?
>>>>
>>>> -Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hayes Elkins said the following on 8/25/2005 2:30 PM:
>>>>
>>>>> What happened to moonshiners and the whiskey running mafia filth of
>>>>> the 30's?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>> Reply-To: The Hardware List 
>>>>>> To: The Hardware List 
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:24:10 -0500
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
>>>>>> organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar
>>>>>> empires?  Tax
>>>>>> the drugs??  LOL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Gary
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Eli Allen]

If drugs became legal the why won't others try to produce drugs?  The way 
they are made is not a secret.  And if you don't have to hide what you are 
doing they are easy to make.


Criminal operations are the only ones providing drugs now as they are 
illegal to provide.


- Original Message - 


And here I thought you had to grow them.  Anyways, you are missing the
point.  The criminal operations are the only ones capable of providing
the drugs to the legal market.  They will continue to make money and do
whatever nefarious things with it that they do now.  Again, legalizing
drugs will do nothing to remove the criminal element.

-Gary



Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 3:50 PM:


I'm going to go out on a limb and say some new companies will be
created or existing companies will expand to produce them.

I'm also going to make this wild assumption that people will rather
get their drugs cheaper at the store then pay more to someone sneaking
around a street corner.

Eli

- Original Message -


Big difference, there was already a thriving legal business for alcohol
prior to prohibition.  So we make drugs legal, where are they going to
come from?

-Gary



Hayes Elkins said the following on 8/25/2005 2:30 PM:


What happened to moonshiners and the whiskey running mafia filth of
the 30's?



From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:24:10 -0500

That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by the
legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar empires?  Tax
the drugs??  LOL.

-Gary

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

Drug usage is unquestionably lower as a result of the laws in place,
which is their purpose.  They are working.   Turf wars take place
regardless of drugs as do shootings and other crimes.  You have no
evidence to suggest that making marijuana legal would remedy any of
these issues.

-Gary



Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 4:12 PM:

> I'd define working as a decrease in the usage, decrease in ability to
> get the drugs, decrease in crimes related to the drugs (stealing to
> get money to pay for them, shootings over who has rights to a certain
> turf for selling drugs, etc)  And this decrease should be significant,
> especially for the area of related crimes as I'd argue those effect
> others besides just the user to a much larger degree so are more
> important.
>
> Using that definition I'd say they aren't working
>
> Eli
>
> - Original Message - From: "Gary Udstrand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "The Hardware List" 
> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 3:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>
>
>> Your problem is you have failed to define working.  If by working you
>> mean are they acting as a deterrent, then they are working.  If you are
>> defining working as the complete eradication of drugs from society then
>> you are creating nothing more than a canard.
>>
>> -Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 2:58 PM:
>>
>>> At 04:44 PM 25/08/2005, Hayes Elkins wrote:
>>>
>>>>> And that's one, not several.  Please give me some concrete examples
>>>>> of harsh drug laws having the desired effect over the long term.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Saudi Arabia - caught with drugs? Bye bye head.
>>>>
>>>> It's also a GREAT place to live.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think that proves my point.  Harsh drug laws just don't work.
>>> Unless you feel that leaving in an oppressive regime with no drugs or
>>> alcohol is working.
>>>
>>> T
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

Draw that conclusion for me Hayes.  You do not think that punishment
serves to prevent?  I also find it interesting that you would turn to
Liddy to try and find support for your position..

-Gary



Hayes Elkins said the following on 8/25/2005 4:12 PM:

> "In general, laws *punish* crime - they do not *prevent* crime."
>
> - GG Liddy
>
>
>> From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: The Hardware List 
>> To: The Hardware List 
>> Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:44:03 -0500
>>
>> How many of those in jail for drugs are helpless Grandma's and
>> teenagers?  Simple question, do the drug laws deter usage?  What else
>> are they supposed to do?  I suppose we should eliminate laws against
>> theft too since they would also fail your definition of success.
>>
>> -Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> j m g said the following on 8/25/2005 3:08 PM:
>>
>> >I don't think locking up grandma and idiot teenagers is the mark of a
>> >successful policy.
>> >
>> >On 8/25/05, Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>Of course it is up to you to define successful?
>> >>
>> >>-Gary
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 3:07 PM:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>At 04:56 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>Your problem is you have failed to define working.  If by working
>> you
>> >>>>mean are they acting as a deterrent, then they are working.  If
>> you are
>> >>>>defining working as the complete eradication of drugs from
>> society then
>> >>>>you are creating nothing more than a canard.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>I think working is pretty easy to define:  A free society where
>> people
>> >>>take responsibility for their actions, and tax dollars aren't wasted
>> >>>on things that are completely unsuccessful.
>> >>>
>> >>>T
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

I know the history, thanks anyways. 

-Gary



Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 4:05 PM:

> By the way most drugs were legal originally.  You may want a small
> history lesson:
>
> http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/12/22/whyIsMarijuanaIllegal.html
>
>
> Eli
> - Original Message -
>
>> Big difference, there was already a thriving legal business for alcohol
>> prior to prohibition.  So we make drugs legal, where are they going to
>> come from?
>>
>> -Gary
>>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

You win.  I guess it is time to legalize murder, robbery, rape, etc. 
since I cannot prove their effectiveness either.  LOL

-Gary



Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 3:55 PM:

> If the desired effect is decreased drug usage and making drugs harder
> to get along with decreasing crime related to the drug usage then I'd
> like to see your proof.
>
> Eli
>
>
> - Original Message -
>
>> USA and Canada.
>>
>> -Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 2:48 PM:
>>
>>> At 04:11 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
>>>
 Several.  China is a lot better off now, isn't it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not sure.  Haven't been there, but I've heard their economy is
>>> doing alright.  Plus China isn't really a modern, civilized country,
>>> so it's hard to compare to the US or Canada.  The Netherlands seems to
>>> be doing ok.
>>>
>>> And that's one, not several.  Please give me some concrete examples of
>>> harsh drug laws having the desired effect over the long term.
>>>
>>> T
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

And here I thought you had to grow them.  Anyways, you are missing the
point.  The criminal operations are the only ones capable of providing
the drugs to the legal market.  They will continue to make money and do
whatever nefarious things with it that they do now.  Again, legalizing
drugs will do nothing to remove the criminal element.

-Gary



Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 3:50 PM:

> I'm going to go out on a limb and say some new companies will be
> created or existing companies will expand to produce them.
>
> I'm also going to make this wild assumption that people will rather
> get their drugs cheaper at the store then pay more to someone sneaking
> around a street corner.
>
> Eli
>
> - Original Message -
>
>> Big difference, there was already a thriving legal business for alcohol
>> prior to prohibition.  So we make drugs legal, where are they going to
>> come from?
>>
>> -Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> Hayes Elkins said the following on 8/25/2005 2:30 PM:
>>
>>> What happened to moonshiners and the whiskey running mafia filth of
>>> the 30's?
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Reply-To: The Hardware List 
>>>> To: The Hardware List 
>>>> Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>>>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:24:10 -0500
>>>>
>>>> That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by the
>>>> legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
>>>> organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar empires?  Tax
>>>> the drugs??  LOL.
>>>>
>>>> -Gary
>>>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Eli Allen]

I'd define working as a decrease in the usage, decrease in ability to get 
the drugs, decrease in crimes related to the drugs (stealing to get money to 
pay for them, shootings over who has rights to a certain turf for selling 
drugs, etc)  And this decrease should be significant, especially for the 
area of related crimes as I'd argue those effect others besides just the 
user to a much larger degree so are more important.


Using that definition I'd say they aren't working

Eli

- Original Message - 
From: "Gary Udstrand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "The Hardware List" 
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices



Your problem is you have failed to define working.  If by working you
mean are they acting as a deterrent, then they are working.  If you are
defining working as the complete eradication of drugs from society then
you are creating nothing more than a canard.

-Gary



Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 2:58 PM:


At 04:44 PM 25/08/2005, Hayes Elkins wrote:


And that's one, not several.  Please give me some concrete examples
of harsh drug laws having the desired effect over the long term.



Saudi Arabia - caught with drugs? Bye bye head.

It's also a GREAT place to live.



I think that proves my point.  Harsh drug laws just don't work.
Unless you feel that leaving in an oppressive regime with no drugs or
alcohol is working.

T

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Hayes Elkins]

"In general, laws *punish* crime - they do not *prevent* crime."

- GG Liddy



From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:44:03 -0500

How many of those in jail for drugs are helpless Grandma's and
teenagers?  Simple question, do the drug laws deter usage?  What else
are they supposed to do?  I suppose we should eliminate laws against
theft too since they would also fail your definition of success.

-Gary



j m g said the following on 8/25/2005 3:08 PM:

>I don't think locking up grandma and idiot teenagers is the mark of a
>successful policy.
>
>On 8/25/05, Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>Of course it is up to you to define successful?
>>
>>-Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 3:07 PM:
>>
>>
>>
>>>At 04:56 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Your problem is you have failed to define working.  If by working you
>>>>mean are they acting as a deterrent, then they are working.  If you 
are
>>>>defining working as the complete eradication of drugs from society 
then

>>>>you are creating nothing more than a canard.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I think working is pretty easy to define:  A free society where people
>>>take responsibility for their actions, and tax dollars aren't wasted
>>>on things that are completely unsuccessful.
>>>
>>>T
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Eli Allen]

By the way most drugs were legal originally.  You may want a small history 
lesson:


http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/12/22/whyIsMarijuanaIllegal.html

Eli
- Original Message - 


Big difference, there was already a thriving legal business for alcohol
prior to prohibition.  So we make drugs legal, where are they going to
come from?

-Gary

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Eli Allen]

If the desired effect is decreased drug usage and making drugs harder to get 
along with decreasing crime related to the drug usage then I'd like to see 
your proof.


Eli


- Original Message - 

USA and Canada.

-Gary



Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 2:48 PM:


At 04:11 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:


Several.  China is a lot better off now, isn't it?



I'm not sure.  Haven't been there, but I've heard their economy is
doing alright.  Plus China isn't really a modern, civilized country,
so it's hard to compare to the US or Canada.  The Netherlands seems to
be doing ok.

And that's one, not several.  Please give me some concrete examples of
harsh drug laws having the desired effect over the long term.

T

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Eli Allen]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say some new companies will be created or 
existing companies will expand to produce them.


I'm also going to make this wild assumption that people will rather get 
their drugs cheaper at the store then pay more to someone sneaking around a 
street corner.


Eli

- Original Message - 

Big difference, there was already a thriving legal business for alcohol
prior to prohibition.  So we make drugs legal, where are they going to
come from?

-Gary



Hayes Elkins said the following on 8/25/2005 2:30 PM:


What happened to moonshiners and the whiskey running mafia filth of
the 30's?



From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:24:10 -0500

That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by the
legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar empires?  Tax
the drugs??  LOL.

-Gary

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

How many of those in jail for drugs are helpless Grandma's and
teenagers?  Simple question, do the drug laws deter usage?  What else
are they supposed to do?  I suppose we should eliminate laws against
theft too since they would also fail your definition of success.

-Gary



j m g said the following on 8/25/2005 3:08 PM:

>I don't think locking up grandma and idiot teenagers is the mark of a
>successful policy.
>
>On 8/25/05, Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
>>Of course it is up to you to define successful?
>>
>>-Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 3:07 PM:
>>
>>
>>
>>>At 04:56 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>
Your problem is you have failed to define working.  If by working you
mean are they acting as a deterrent, then they are working.  If you are
defining working as the complete eradication of drugs from society then
you are creating nothing more than a canard.


>>>I think working is pretty easy to define:  A free society where people
>>>take responsibility for their actions, and tax dollars aren't wasted
>>>on things that are completely unsuccessful.
>>>
>>>T
>>>  
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>  
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[j m g]

I don't think locking up grandma and idiot teenagers is the mark of a
successful policy.

On 8/25/05, Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Of course it is up to you to define successful?
> 
> -Gary
> 
> 
> 
> Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 3:07 PM:
> 
> > At 04:56 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
> >
> >> Your problem is you have failed to define working.  If by working you
> >> mean are they acting as a deterrent, then they are working.  If you are
> >> defining working as the complete eradication of drugs from society then
> >> you are creating nothing more than a canard.
> >
> >
> > I think working is pretty easy to define:  A free society where people
> > take responsibility for their actions, and tax dollars aren't wasted
> > on things that are completely unsuccessful.
> >
> > T
> 
> 


-- 
-jmg

Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Hayes Elkins]

A staunch libertarian take on the WoD 
http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=war




From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:04:34 -0500

Yes.

-Gary



Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 3:06 PM:

> At 04:54 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
>
>> USA and Canada.
>
>
> So you feel we are winning the drug war?
>
> T

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

Of course it is up to you to define successful?

-Gary



Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 3:07 PM:

> At 04:56 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
>
>> Your problem is you have failed to define working.  If by working you
>> mean are they acting as a deterrent, then they are working.  If you are
>> defining working as the complete eradication of drugs from society then
>> you are creating nothing more than a canard.
>
>
> I think working is pretty easy to define:  A free society where people
> take responsibility for their actions, and tax dollars aren't wasted
> on things that are completely unsuccessful.
>
> T

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

Yes. 

-Gary



Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 3:06 PM:

> At 04:54 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
>
>> USA and Canada.
>
>
> So you feel we are winning the drug war?
>
> T

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Thane Sherrington]

At 04:56 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:

Your problem is you have failed to define working.  If by working you
mean are they acting as a deterrent, then they are working.  If you are
defining working as the complete eradication of drugs from society then
you are creating nothing more than a canard.


I think working is pretty easy to define:  A free society where people take 
responsibility for their actions, and tax dollars aren't wasted on things 
that are completely unsuccessful.


T 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[j m g]

the same places stores get their goods from now, growers,
manufacturers, local and international, if it was legal and had a
profit margin and some demand it wouldn't be at Walmart?

On 8/25/05, Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And where is Walgreens supposed to get the drugs?
> 
> -Gary
> 
> 
> 
> j m g said the following on 8/25/2005 2:37 PM:
> 
> >If I can walk into walgreens and there sitting right next to the
> >marlboro's...they're not going to have a say in the matter.
> >
> >On 8/25/05, Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by the
> >>legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
> >>organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar empires?  Tax
> >>the drugs??  LOL.
> >>
> >>-Gary
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 10:24 AM:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>A few minor changes I'd make.  First, I'm assuming the drugs are
> >>>actually very cheap to make.  So I say tax them very highly and they
> >>>should still be cheaper then drugs are now and so prevent a black
> >>>market,  These taxes are what should be used to pay for all the
> >>>regulation and treatment efforts.
> >>>
> >>>Second, there needs to be a law that first defines what recreational
> >>>drugs are and second allowing discrimination against people who use
> >>>them.  This allows for an additional incentive to keep people off the
> >>>drugs.  I do believe the drugs do bad things to you to can cause your
> >>>medical bills to go up and keep you from being as good of an employee
> >>>from how it effects your mind so its not fair for the many who don't
> >>>use the drugs.
> >>>
> >>>Third, and probably the measure to enact first, medical research
> >>>should never be limited arbitrarily because a chemical is considered a
> >>>recreational drug.  A chemical is a chemical and they all have side
> >>>effects, you just need to balance the good parts and the bad.
> >>>
> >>>Eli
> >>>
> >>>- Original Message -
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/7/ - Decriminalization
> >>>>arguement.  Sounds pretty good to me...
> >>>>
> >>>>On 8/25/05, Ben Ruset <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Freed up space in prisons better suited to real criminals.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>>>Date: Thu Aug 25 09:31:48 CDT 2005
> >>>>>>To: The Hardware List 
> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
> >>>>>>park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
> >>>>>>drugs solved any social ills?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>-Gary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 3:04 AM:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>shops on
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta love
> >>>>>>>British Columbia! 
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't
> >>>>>>>work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of
> >>>>>>>"criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what
> >>>>>>>happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's
> >>>>>>>business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public
> >>>>>>>education and rehab rather than interdiction and cr

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Thane Sherrington]

At 04:54 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:

USA and Canada.


So you feel we are winning the drug war?

T 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

Your problem is you have failed to define working.  If by working you
mean are they acting as a deterrent, then they are working.  If you are
defining working as the complete eradication of drugs from society then
you are creating nothing more than a canard.

-Gary



Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 2:58 PM:

> At 04:44 PM 25/08/2005, Hayes Elkins wrote:
>
>>> And that's one, not several.  Please give me some concrete examples
>>> of harsh drug laws having the desired effect over the long term.
>>
>>
>> Saudi Arabia - caught with drugs? Bye bye head.
>>
>> It's also a GREAT place to live.
>
>
> I think that proves my point.  Harsh drug laws just don't work. 
> Unless you feel that leaving in an oppressive regime with no drugs or
> alcohol is working.
>
> T

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

And where is Walgreens supposed to get the drugs?

-Gary



j m g said the following on 8/25/2005 2:37 PM:

>If I can walk into walgreens and there sitting right next to the
>marlboro's...they're not going to have a say in the matter.
>
>On 8/25/05, Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
>>That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by the
>>legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
>>organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar empires?  Tax
>>the drugs??  LOL.
>>
>>-Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 10:24 AM:
>>
>>
>>
>>>A few minor changes I'd make.  First, I'm assuming the drugs are
>>>actually very cheap to make.  So I say tax them very highly and they
>>>should still be cheaper then drugs are now and so prevent a black
>>>market,  These taxes are what should be used to pay for all the
>>>regulation and treatment efforts.
>>>
>>>Second, there needs to be a law that first defines what recreational
>>>drugs are and second allowing discrimination against people who use
>>>them.  This allows for an additional incentive to keep people off the
>>>drugs.  I do believe the drugs do bad things to you to can cause your
>>>medical bills to go up and keep you from being as good of an employee
>>>from how it effects your mind so its not fair for the many who don't
>>>use the drugs.
>>>
>>>Third, and probably the measure to enact first, medical research
>>>should never be limited arbitrarily because a chemical is considered a
>>>recreational drug.  A chemical is a chemical and they all have side
>>>effects, you just need to balance the good parts and the bad.
>>>
>>>Eli
>>>
>>>- Original Message -
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>>http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/7/ - Decriminalization
>>>>arguement.  Sounds pretty good to me...
>>>>
>>>>On 8/25/05, Ben Ruset <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Freed up space in prisons better suited to real criminals.
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>>Date: Thu Aug 25 09:31:48 CDT 2005
>>>>>>To: The Hardware List 
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
>>>>>>park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
>>>>>>drugs solved any social ills?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 3:04 AM:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>
>>>>>shops on
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>>>the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta love
>>>>>>>British Columbia! 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't
>>>>>>>work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of
>>>>>>>"criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what
>>>>>>>happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's
>>>>>>>business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public
>>>>>>>education and rehab rather than interdiction and criminalization!
>>>>>>>Addictive behavior is associated with "self-esteem" and that's where
>>>>>>>our focus should be! So much for wisdom in government!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>warpmedia wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>these
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>days! LOL
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the little
>>>>>>>>Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course there
>>>>>>>>was the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since that
>>>>>>>>seems to be the law the get you on rather than possession or use.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>FORC5 wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>cellophane
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>to dynamite."
>>>>>>>>>Popular Mechanics, 1938
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the
>>>>>>>>>>buds to Canada. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>gibney wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>-jmg
>>>>
>>>>Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
>>>>Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
>  
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

USA and Canada.

-Gary



Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 2:48 PM:

> At 04:11 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
>
>> Several.  China is a lot better off now, isn't it?
>
>
> I'm not sure.  Haven't been there, but I've heard their economy is
> doing alright.  Plus China isn't really a modern, civilized country,
> so it's hard to compare to the US or Canada.  The Netherlands seems to
> be doing ok.
>
> And that's one, not several.  Please give me some concrete examples of
> harsh drug laws having the desired effect over the long term.
>
> T

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

I have no idea what you are talking about Hayes but leave it to you to
come up with shit like this.  It was meant as a joke.  You are some
piece of work.

-Gary



Hayes Elkins said the following on 8/25/2005 2:26 PM:

>
>
>
>> From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: The Hardware List 
>> To: The Hardware List 
>> Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:18:32 -0500
>>
>> Big difference, without food and water you die.  Without sex you become
>> a nerd.  LOL
>>
>> -Gary
>
>
> Or a buttfucking pedophile priest.
>
> (remembering your prior defense of priesthood's celibacy that was
> introduced solely to protect the church's dwindling riches centuries ago)
>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Thane Sherrington]

At 04:44 PM 25/08/2005, Hayes Elkins wrote:
And that's one, not several.  Please give me some concrete examples of 
harsh drug laws having the desired effect over the long term.


Saudi Arabia - caught with drugs? Bye bye head.

It's also a GREAT place to live.


I think that proves my point.  Harsh drug laws just don't work.  Unless you 
feel that leaving in an oppressive regime with no drugs or alcohol is working.


T 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

Big difference, there was already a thriving legal business for alcohol
prior to prohibition.  So we make drugs legal, where are they going to
come from?

-Gary



Hayes Elkins said the following on 8/25/2005 2:30 PM:

> What happened to moonshiners and the whiskey running mafia filth of
> the 30's?
>
>
>> From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: The Hardware List 
>> To: The Hardware List 
>> Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:24:10 -0500
>>
>> That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by the
>> legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
>> organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar empires?  Tax
>> the drugs??  LOL.
>>
>> -Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 10:24 AM:
>>
>> > A few minor changes I'd make.  First, I'm assuming the drugs are
>> > actually very cheap to make.  So I say tax them very highly and they
>> > should still be cheaper then drugs are now and so prevent a black
>> > market,  These taxes are what should be used to pay for all the
>> > regulation and treatment efforts.
>> >
>> > Second, there needs to be a law that first defines what recreational
>> > drugs are and second allowing discrimination against people who use
>> > them.  This allows for an additional incentive to keep people off the
>> > drugs.  I do believe the drugs do bad things to you to can cause your
>> > medical bills to go up and keep you from being as good of an employee
>> > from how it effects your mind so its not fair for the many who don't
>> > use the drugs.
>> >
>> > Third, and probably the measure to enact first, medical research
>> > should never be limited arbitrarily because a chemical is considered a
>> > recreational drug.  A chemical is a chemical and they all have side
>> > effects, you just need to balance the good parts and the bad.
>> >
>> > Eli
>> >
>> > - Original Message -
>> >
>> >> http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/7/ - Decriminalization
>> >> arguement.  Sounds pretty good to me...
>> >>
>> >> On 8/25/05, Ben Ruset <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Freed up space in prisons better suited to real criminals.
>> >>>
>> >>> >From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >>> >Date: Thu Aug 25 09:31:48 CDT 2005
>> >>> >To: The Hardware List 
>> >>> >Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>> >>>
>> >>> >What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about
>> Needle
>> >>> >park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
>> >>> >drugs solved any social ills?
>> >>> >
>> >>> >-Gary
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 3:04 AM:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in
>> >>> shops on
>> >>> >> the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta
>> love
>> >>> >> British Columbia! 
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition"
>> doesn't
>> >>> >> work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of
>> >>> >> "criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what
>> >>> >> happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax?
>> Who's
>> >>> >> business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public
>> >>> >> education and rehab rather than interdiction and criminalization!
>> >>> >> Addictive behavior is associated with "self-esteem" and that's
>> where
>> >>> >> our focus should be! So much for wisdom in government!
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> warpmedia wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere
>> >>> these
>> >>> >>> days! LOL
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the
>> little
>> >>> >>> Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course
>> there
>> >>> >>> was the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since
>> that
>> >>> >>> seems to be the law the get you on rather than possession or
>> use.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> FORC5 wrote:
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>> "Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from
>> >>> cellophane
>> >>> >>>> to dynamite."
>> >>> >>>> Popular Mechanics, 1938
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>> At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:
>> >>> >>>>
>> >>> >>>>> Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and
>> sell the
>> >>> >>>>> buds to Canada. 
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>> gibney wrote:
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>
>> >>> >>>>>> Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.
>> >>> >>>>>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> -jmg
>> >>
>> >> Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
>> >> Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>
>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Hayes Elkins]

From: Thane Sherrington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:48:53 -0300

At 04:11 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:

Several.  China is a lot better off now, isn't it?


I'm not sure.  Haven't been there, but I've heard their economy is doing 
alright.  Plus China isn't really a modern, civilized country, so it's hard 
to compare to the US or Canada.  The Netherlands seems to be doing ok.


And that's one, not several.  Please give me some concrete examples of 
harsh drug laws having the desired effect over the long term.


Saudi Arabia - caught with drugs? Bye bye head.

It's also a GREAT place to live.

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Thane Sherrington]

At 04:37 PM 25/08/2005, j m g wrote:

If I can walk into walgreens and there sitting right next to the
marlboro's...they're not going to have a say in the matter.


Yup.  And that's why legalizing it works so well.  The same for 
prostitution, btw.


T 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Thane Sherrington]

At 04:11 PM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:

Several.  China is a lot better off now, isn't it?


I'm not sure.  Haven't been there, but I've heard their economy is doing 
alright.  Plus China isn't really a modern, civilized country, so it's hard 
to compare to the US or Canada.  The Netherlands seems to be doing ok.


And that's one, not several.  Please give me some concrete examples of 
harsh drug laws having the desired effect over the long term.


T 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[j m g]

If I can walk into walgreens and there sitting right next to the
marlboro's...they're not going to have a say in the matter.

On 8/25/05, Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by the
> legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
> organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar empires?  Tax
> the drugs??  LOL.
> 
> -Gary
> 
> 
> 
> Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 10:24 AM:
> 
> > A few minor changes I'd make.  First, I'm assuming the drugs are
> > actually very cheap to make.  So I say tax them very highly and they
> > should still be cheaper then drugs are now and so prevent a black
> > market,  These taxes are what should be used to pay for all the
> > regulation and treatment efforts.
> >
> > Second, there needs to be a law that first defines what recreational
> > drugs are and second allowing discrimination against people who use
> > them.  This allows for an additional incentive to keep people off the
> > drugs.  I do believe the drugs do bad things to you to can cause your
> > medical bills to go up and keep you from being as good of an employee
> > from how it effects your mind so its not fair for the many who don't
> > use the drugs.
> >
> > Third, and probably the measure to enact first, medical research
> > should never be limited arbitrarily because a chemical is considered a
> > recreational drug.  A chemical is a chemical and they all have side
> > effects, you just need to balance the good parts and the bad.
> >
> > Eli
> >
> > - Original Message -
> >
> >> http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/7/ - Decriminalization
> >> arguement.  Sounds pretty good to me...
> >>
> >> On 8/25/05, Ben Ruset <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Freed up space in prisons better suited to real criminals.
> >>>
> >>> >From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> >Date: Thu Aug 25 09:31:48 CDT 2005
> >>> >To: The Hardware List 
> >>> >Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
> >>>
> >>> >What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
> >>> >park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
> >>> >drugs solved any social ills?
> >>> >
> >>> >-Gary
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 3:04 AM:
> >>> >
> >>> >> BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in
> >>> shops on
> >>> >> the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta love
> >>> >> British Columbia! 
> >>> >>
> >>> >> What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't
> >>> >> work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of
> >>> >> "criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what
> >>> >> happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's
> >>> >> business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public
> >>> >> education and rehab rather than interdiction and criminalization!
> >>> >> Addictive behavior is associated with "self-esteem" and that's where
> >>> >> our focus should be! So much for wisdom in government!
> >>> >>
> >>> >> warpmedia wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere
> >>> these
> >>> >>> days! LOL
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the little
> >>> >>> Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course there
> >>> >>> was the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since that
> >>> >>> seems to be the law the get you on rather than possession or use.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> FORC5 wrote:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>> "Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from
> >>> cellophane
> >>> >>>> to dynamite."
> >>> >>>> Popular Mechanics, 1938
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>> Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the
> >>> >>>>> buds to Canada. 
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> gibney wrote:
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>> Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.
> >>> >>>>>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> -jmg
> >>
> >> Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
> >> Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]
> >>
> >>
> >
> 


-- 
-jmg

Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Hayes Elkins]

What happened to moonshiners and the whiskey running mafia filth of the 
30's?




From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:24:10 -0500

That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by the
legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar empires?  Tax
the drugs??  LOL.

-Gary



Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 10:24 AM:

> A few minor changes I'd make.  First, I'm assuming the drugs are
> actually very cheap to make.  So I say tax them very highly and they
> should still be cheaper then drugs are now and so prevent a black
> market,  These taxes are what should be used to pay for all the
> regulation and treatment efforts.
>
> Second, there needs to be a law that first defines what recreational
> drugs are and second allowing discrimination against people who use
> them.  This allows for an additional incentive to keep people off the
> drugs.  I do believe the drugs do bad things to you to can cause your
> medical bills to go up and keep you from being as good of an employee
> from how it effects your mind so its not fair for the many who don't
> use the drugs.
>
> Third, and probably the measure to enact first, medical research
> should never be limited arbitrarily because a chemical is considered a
> recreational drug.  A chemical is a chemical and they all have side
> effects, you just need to balance the good parts and the bad.
>
> Eli
>
> - Original Message -
>
>> http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/7/ - Decriminalization
>> arguement.  Sounds pretty good to me...
>>
>> On 8/25/05, Ben Ruset <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Freed up space in prisons better suited to real criminals.
>>>
>>> >From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> >Date: Thu Aug 25 09:31:48 CDT 2005
>>> >To: The Hardware List 
>>> >Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>>>
>>> >What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
>>> >park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
>>> >drugs solved any social ills?
>>> >
>>> >-Gary
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 3:04 AM:
>>> >
>>> >> BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in
>>> shops on
>>> >> the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta love
>>> >> British Columbia! 
>>> >>
>>> >> What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't
>>> >> work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of
>>> >> "criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what
>>> >> happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's
>>> >> business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public
>>> >> education and rehab rather than interdiction and criminalization!
>>> >> Addictive behavior is associated with "self-esteem" and that's 
where

>>> >> our focus should be! So much for wisdom in government!
>>> >>
>>> >> warpmedia wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere
>>> these
>>> >>> days! LOL
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the little
>>> >>> Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course there
>>> >>> was the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since that
>>> >>> seems to be the law the get you on rather than possession or use.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> FORC5 wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> "Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from
>>> cellophane
>>> >>>> to dynamite."
>>> >>>> Popular Mechanics, 1938
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell 
the

>>> >>>>> buds to Canada. 
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> gibney wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -jmg
>>
>> Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
>> Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]
>>
>>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Veech]

Are we at the 3-day rule yet for this topic?

- Original Message - 
From: "Hayes Elkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices







From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:18:32 -0500

Big difference, without food and water you die.  Without sex you become
a nerd.  LOL

-Gary


Or a buttfucking pedophile priest.

(remembering your prior defense of priesthood's celibacy that was 
introduced solely to protect the church's dwindling riches centuries ago)

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Hayes Elkins]

From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:18:32 -0500

Big difference, without food and water you die.  Without sex you become
a nerd.  LOL

-Gary


Or a buttfucking pedophile priest.

(remembering your prior defense of priesthood's celibacy that was introduced 
solely to protect the church's dwindling riches centuries ago)

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

That is one of the most ludicrous arguments being tossed about by the
legalizing drugs crowd.  What in God's name makes you think that
organized crime will walk away from their BILLION dollar empires?  Tax
the drugs??  LOL.  

-Gary



Eli Allen said the following on 8/25/2005 10:24 AM:

> A few minor changes I'd make.  First, I'm assuming the drugs are
> actually very cheap to make.  So I say tax them very highly and they
> should still be cheaper then drugs are now and so prevent a black
> market,  These taxes are what should be used to pay for all the
> regulation and treatment efforts.
>
> Second, there needs to be a law that first defines what recreational
> drugs are and second allowing discrimination against people who use
> them.  This allows for an additional incentive to keep people off the
> drugs.  I do believe the drugs do bad things to you to can cause your
> medical bills to go up and keep you from being as good of an employee
> from how it effects your mind so its not fair for the many who don't
> use the drugs.
>
> Third, and probably the measure to enact first, medical research
> should never be limited arbitrarily because a chemical is considered a
> recreational drug.  A chemical is a chemical and they all have side
> effects, you just need to balance the good parts and the bad.
>
> Eli
>
> - Original Message -
>
>> http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/7/ - Decriminalization
>> arguement.  Sounds pretty good to me...
>>
>> On 8/25/05, Ben Ruset <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Freed up space in prisons better suited to real criminals.
>>>
>>> >From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> >Date: Thu Aug 25 09:31:48 CDT 2005
>>> >To: The Hardware List 
>>> >Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>>>
>>> >What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
>>> >park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
>>> >drugs solved any social ills?
>>> >
>>> >-Gary
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 3:04 AM:
>>> >
>>> >> BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in
>>> shops on
>>> >> the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta love
>>> >> British Columbia! 
>>> >>
>>> >> What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't
>>> >> work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of
>>> >> "criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what
>>> >> happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's
>>> >> business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public
>>> >> education and rehab rather than interdiction and criminalization!
>>> >> Addictive behavior is associated with "self-esteem" and that's where
>>> >> our focus should be! So much for wisdom in government!
>>> >>
>>> >> warpmedia wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere
>>> these
>>> >>> days! LOL
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the little
>>> >>> Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course there
>>> >>> was the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since that
>>> >>> seems to be the law the get you on rather than possession or use.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> FORC5 wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> "Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from
>>> cellophane
>>> >>>> to dynamite."
>>> >>>> Popular Mechanics, 1938
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the
>>> >>>>> buds to Canada. 
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> gibney wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> -jmg
>>
>> Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
>> Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]
>>
>>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

Wow,  you really need to do some reading.

-Gary



Ben Ruset said the following on 8/25/2005 9:41 AM:

>Freed up space in prisons better suited to real criminals.
>
>  
>
>>From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Date: Thu Aug 25 09:31:48 CDT 2005
>>To: The Hardware List 
>>Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>>
>>
>
>  
>
>>What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
>>park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
>>drugs solved any social ills?
>>
>>-Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 3:04 AM:
>>
>>
>>
>>>BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in shops on
>>>the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta love
>>>British Columbia! 
>>>
>>>What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't
>>>work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of
>>>"criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what
>>>happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's
>>>business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public
>>>education and rehab rather than interdiction and criminalization!
>>>Addictive behavior is associated with "self-esteem" and that's where
>>>our focus should be! So much for wisdom in government!
>>>
>>>warpmedia wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>>Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere these
>>>>days! LOL
>>>>
>>>>Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the little
>>>>Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course there
>>>>was the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since that
>>>>seems to be the law the get you on rather than possession or use.
>>>>
>>>>FORC5 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from cellophane
>>>>>to dynamite."
>>>>>Popular Mechanics, 1938
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>>Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the
>>>>>>buds to Canada. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>gibney wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
>  
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

Big difference, without food and water you die.  Without sex you become
a nerd.  LOL

-Gary



Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 12:25 PM:

> The time following puberty is the time period when a person is the
> horniest in their lives! All part of God's plan to provide for our
> reproduction. Deny a person food and see how warped their behavior
> becomes. Take away someones water and all they'll think about is
> getting something to drink. That's why we need to provide our children
> with condoms so they can get the sex they crave and help prevent
> disease and unwanted pregnancy. Common sense my friend.
>
> FORC5 wrote:
>
>> not a good reason to make these products legal. same argument for
>> giving kids condoms.
>> a society needs standards to live by
>> for the live of me I can not figure out why someone would consume a
>> product that they have NO FUCKING IDEA what kind of standards where
>> used in manufacture. These same ppl probably want only organic food.
>> go figure.
>> fp
>>
>> At 07:40 AM 8/25/2005, Thane Sherrington Poked the stick with:
>>
>>> At 11:31 AM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
>>>
 What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
 park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
 drugs solved any social ills?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can you name one example where making it illegal solved any social
>>> ills?  All anti-drug laws have gotten the US and Canada are huge
>>> police budgets and drugs on the streets.  If they can get drugs into
>>> prisons (supposedly secure facilities) then we can't stop them
>>> outside prisons.
>>>
>>> T 
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Tallyho ! ]:8)
>> Taglines below !
>> -- 
>> Sometimes, the only solution is to find a new problem.
>>
>> 
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/81 - Release Date:
>> 8/24/2005
>>  
>>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

You are making a HUGE assumption, that being that enforcement doesn't do
anything.  Most believe that the enforcement is working the way it
should.  It is a deterrent and as such is doing its job.

-Gary



j m g said the following on 8/25/2005 11:45 AM:

>But how many billions are spent on enforcement that doesn't get
>anywhere.  Why even bother busting kids with a cigarette's worth of
>pot?  Your taxes are already going to the 'war on drugs' and that
>money isn't being wisely spent.
>
>On 8/25/05, Gary VanderMolen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
>>>The biggest drug problem these days is ICE or crystal meth made from
>>>cold pills and second a bumper crop from our buddies in Afghanistan.
>>>Neither should be tolerated and those found using should be helped
>>>medically, not jailed.
>>>  
>>>
>>Do you want your taxes raised in order to pay for the repetitive
>>medical treatment of those who abuse themselves willfully? I don't.
>>I don't see any free alcohol abuse treatment centers either.
>>Remember, those in jail for drug abuse are but the tip of the
>>iceberg. People need to take ownership of their own problems and
>>learn self control. Don't expect kid-glove treatment on my dime.
>>
>>Gary VanderMolen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>  
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

Several.  China is a lot better off now, isn't it?

-Gary



Thane Sherrington said the following on 8/25/2005 9:40 AM:

> At 11:31 AM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
>
>> What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
>> park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
>> drugs solved any social ills?
>
>
> Can you name one example where making it illegal solved any social
> ills?  All anti-drug laws have gotten the US and Canada are huge
> police budgets and drugs on the streets.  If they can get drugs into
> prisons (supposedly secure facilities) then we can't stop them outside
> prisons.
>
> T

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Hayes Elkins]

From: "Gary VanderMolen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: "The Hardware List" 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:37:44 -0700

Do you want your taxes raised in order to pay for the repetitive
medical treatment of those who abuse themselves willfully? I don't.
I don't see any free alcohol abuse treatment centers either.


http://www.aa.org

Remember, those in jail for drug abuse are but the tip of the iceberg. 
People need to take ownership of their own problems and

learn self control. Don't expect kid-glove treatment on my dime.

Gary VanderMolen


Reminder to all:

Arguing the illegality of marijuana while alcohol and tainted tobacco 
products remain legal is fundamentally stupid.


Liberty comes with consequences. Drug use comes with consequences. 
Legalizing a weed does not absolve you from punishment if you commit a 
crime.


The US is perhaps the "freest" nation on earth with exception to its asinine 
drug laws. Can you believe the audacity of other countries that claim they 
are free yet they can imprison people for controversial speech? And I'm not 
talking about yelling "fire" in a movie theater. The point being is that in 
order for the US to truly be a champion of protecting fundamental human 
liberties in wake of a tyrannical majority, drug laws need to be drastically 
re-examined. For those who want to waste their life in drugs, I say let 
them. Just like we allow people to become alcoholics, smokers, or gamblers. 
And make it a double edged sword so that our taxes do not pay for the ills 
that come with said vices.

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Hayes Elkins]

Curing cancer.



From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: The Hardware List 
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:31:48 -0500

What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
drugs solved any social ills?

-Gary

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary VanderMolen]

So we should all just give in to our impulses and do what
the hell we want? I was plenty horny by age 13, which
doesn't mean I was emotionally ready, or financially
capable of the consequences of a broken/slipped condom.

Gary VanderMolen


- Original Message - 
From: "Stan Zaske" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



The time following puberty is the time period when a person is the 
horniest in their lives! All part of God's plan to provide for our 
reproduction. Deny a person food and see how warped their behavior 
becomes. Take away someones water and all they'll think about is getting 
something to drink. That's why we need to provide our children with 
condoms so they can get the sex they crave and help prevent disease and 
unwanted pregnancy. Common sense my friend.

RE: [H] Gas prices

[Wayne Johnson]

At 01:29 PM 8/25/2005, 007 typed:

I am not sure if Puberty is when people are the horniest.  Perhaps it has to
do with access, supply and demand.


Medical fact that women don't mature sexually until their mid 30's while 
males it's 19-21 & at that age many females are trying to figure out how 
they can get over on the horny guys to get what they want. Heck, some of 
them never stop trying to get over on us poor guys.   With that 
argument about condoms why don't we just give the kids at 13 the house, 
car, boat, motorcycle & whatever else you value & see how long it'll be 
before they trash either it or themselves. You say 13 is too young? There 
was a gal in my HS class that had a baby at 13 by a known BF. At that age 
if we allow them to act whenever the impulse hits them I doubt many of them 
will remember to use a condom. They need to learn control sometime.


--+--
   Wayne D. Johnson
Ashland, OH, USA 44805
 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Stan Zaske]

Perhaps you've forgotten your raging hormones my friend. In the natural 
world people saw animals copulating all the time and that was all it 
took to prime the pump. But just because we insulate ourselves from the 
natural world doesn't mean we aren't a part of it and the drive to 
reproduce. Look at all the sex crime in this country and tell me it 
doesn't have a great deal to do with our suppression of our natural 
urges. Go on a 4 day fast with nothing but water and see how it affects 
your mind. Be sure to have others observing you to give you feedback on 
the things you do that in your altered state of mind you can't see. Peace


007 wrote:


I am not sure if Puberty is when people are the horniest.  Perhaps it has to
do with access, supply and demand.

007.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stan Zaske
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 1:26 PM
To: The Hardware List
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices


The time following puberty is the time period when a person is the
horniest in their lives! All part of God's plan to provide for our
reproduction. Deny a person food and see how warped their behavior
becomes. Take away someones water and all they'll think about is getting
something to drink. That's why we need to provide our children with
condoms so they can get the sex they crave and help prevent disease and
unwanted pregnancy. Common sense my friend.

FORC5 wrote:

 


not a good reason to make these products legal. same argument for
giving kids condoms.
a society needs standards to live by
for the live of me I can not figure out why someone would consume a
product that they have NO FUCKING IDEA what kind of standards where
used in manufacture. These same ppl probably want only organic food.
go figure.
fp

At 07:40 AM 8/25/2005, Thane Sherrington Poked the stick with:

   


At 11:31 AM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:

 


What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
drugs solved any social ills?
   


Can you name one example where making it illegal solved any social
ills?  All anti-drug laws have gotten the US and Canada are huge
police budgets and drugs on the streets.  If they can get drugs into
prisons (supposedly secure facilities) then we can't stop them
outside prisons.

T
 


--
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
Sometimes, the only solution is to find a new problem.



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/81 - Release Date: 8/24/2005


   





 

RE: [H] Gas prices

[007]

I am not sure if Puberty is when people are the horniest.  Perhaps it has to
do with access, supply and demand.

007.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stan Zaske
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 1:26 PM
To: The Hardware List
Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices


The time following puberty is the time period when a person is the
horniest in their lives! All part of God's plan to provide for our
reproduction. Deny a person food and see how warped their behavior
becomes. Take away someones water and all they'll think about is getting
something to drink. That's why we need to provide our children with
condoms so they can get the sex they crave and help prevent disease and
unwanted pregnancy. Common sense my friend.

FORC5 wrote:

> not a good reason to make these products legal. same argument for
> giving kids condoms.
> a society needs standards to live by
> for the live of me I can not figure out why someone would consume a
> product that they have NO FUCKING IDEA what kind of standards where
> used in manufacture. These same ppl probably want only organic food.
> go figure.
> fp
>
> At 07:40 AM 8/25/2005, Thane Sherrington Poked the stick with:
>
>> At 11:31 AM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:
>>
>>> What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
>>> park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
>>> drugs solved any social ills?
>>
>>
>> Can you name one example where making it illegal solved any social
>> ills?  All anti-drug laws have gotten the US and Canada are huge
>> police budgets and drugs on the streets.  If they can get drugs into
>> prisons (supposedly secure facilities) then we can't stop them
>> outside prisons.
>>
>> T
>
> --
> Tallyho ! ]:8)
> Taglines below !
> --
> Sometimes, the only solution is to find a new problem.
>
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/81 - Release Date: 8/24/2005
>
>

RE: Re: [H] Gas prices

[007]

Having drugs gives agents and the government to subsidize prisons, seize
property (Ferrari's, Large Mansions) etc.

I don't think we should make them legal any time soon.

Any one wants to buy a Ferrari Testarosa for $5,000?

007.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Eli Allen
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 11:24 AM
To: The Hardware List
Subject: Re: Re: [H] Gas prices


A few minor changes I'd make.  First, I'm assuming the drugs are actually
very cheap to make.  So I say tax them very highly and they should still be
cheaper then drugs are now and so prevent a black market,  These taxes are
what should be used to pay for all the regulation and treatment efforts.

Second, there needs to be a law that first defines what recreational drugs
are and second allowing discrimination against people who use them.  This
allows for an additional incentive to keep people off the drugs.  I do
believe the drugs do bad things to you to can cause your medical bills to go
up and keep you from being as good of an employee from how it effects your
mind so its not fair for the many who don't use the drugs.

Third, and probably the measure to enact first, medical research should
never be limited arbitrarily because a chemical is considered a recreational
drug.  A chemical is a chemical and they all have side effects, you just
need to balance the good parts and the bad.

Eli

- Original Message -

> http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/7/ - Decriminalization
> arguement.  Sounds pretty good to me...
>
> On 8/25/05, Ben Ruset <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Freed up space in prisons better suited to real criminals.
>>
>> >From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >Date: Thu Aug 25 09:31:48 CDT 2005
>> >To: The Hardware List 
>> >Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
>>
>> >What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
>> >park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
>> >drugs solved any social ills?
>> >
>> >-Gary
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 3:04 AM:
>> >
>> >> BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in shops on
>> >> the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta love
>> >> British Columbia! 
>> >>
>> >> What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't
>> >> work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of
>> >> "criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what
>> >> happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's
>> >> business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public
>> >> education and rehab rather than interdiction and criminalization!
>> >> Addictive behavior is associated with "self-esteem" and that's where
>> >> our focus should be! So much for wisdom in government!
>> >>
>> >> warpmedia wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere these
>> >>> days! LOL
>> >>>
>> >>> Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the little
>> >>> Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course there
>> >>> was the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since that
>> >>> seems to be the law the get you on rather than possession or use.
>> >>>
>> >>> FORC5 wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> "Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from cellophane
>> >>>> to dynamite."
>> >>>> Popular Mechanics, 1938
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the
>> >>>>> buds to Canada. 
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> gibney wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> -jmg
>
> Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
> Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]
>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Wayne Johnson]

At 12:45 PM 8/25/2005, j m g typed:

But how many billions are spent on enforcement that doesn't get
anywhere.  Why even bother busting kids with a cigarette's worth of
pot?


So he won't get the idea that it's ok & that to make any easy living he 
might start to sell it?  At some point a foot must come down but it should 
be done with compassion on a case by case basis as no one solution will 
work for everyone. OBTW saying that enforcement is not getting anywhere is 
like my kid telling me that he wants to wear an ear ring because everyone 
is doing it. With that kind of logic where does it all stop? When he gets 
to be 18 & lives elsewhere & then he decides he wants to wear an ear ring 
then fine but since he's not allowed to then everyone is NOT doing it. 
There has to be some rules if not at what age should I allow my kids to 
spend money on tattoos & ear rings just to be kewl ? 5? 7? 10? 13? What 
happens when we don't have the money for such things should I allow my kids 
to take what they want? Of course not, so we agree that there has to be 
some rules some where, some time & the real question is when & this can 
only be answered on a case by case basis hopefully with some compassion.


--+--
   Wayne D. Johnson
Ashland, OH, USA 44805
 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Stan Zaske]

The time following puberty is the time period when a person is the 
horniest in their lives! All part of God's plan to provide for our 
reproduction. Deny a person food and see how warped their behavior 
becomes. Take away someones water and all they'll think about is getting 
something to drink. That's why we need to provide our children with 
condoms so they can get the sex they crave and help prevent disease and 
unwanted pregnancy. Common sense my friend.


FORC5 wrote:

not a good reason to make these products legal. same argument for 
giving kids condoms.

a society needs standards to live by
for the live of me I can not figure out why someone would consume a 
product that they have NO FUCKING IDEA what kind of standards where 
used in manufacture. These same ppl probably want only organic food. 
go figure.

fp

At 07:40 AM 8/25/2005, Thane Sherrington Poked the stick with:


At 11:31 AM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:


What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
drugs solved any social ills?



Can you name one example where making it illegal solved any social 
ills?  All anti-drug laws have gotten the US and Canada are huge 
police budgets and drugs on the streets.  If they can get drugs into 
prisons (supposedly secure facilities) then we can't stop them 
outside prisons.


T 


--
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
Sometimes, the only solution is to find a new problem.



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.15/81 - Release Date: 8/24/2005
 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Stan Zaske]

Dr. Phil's theme for the day happens to be drug and alcohol abuse and 
the effects on our loved ones. 3pm Central time.


Thane Sherrington wrote:


At 11:31 AM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:


What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
drugs solved any social ills?



Can you name one example where making it illegal solved any social 
ills?  All anti-drug laws have gotten the US and Canada are huge 
police budgets and drugs on the streets.  If they can get drugs into 
prisons (supposedly secure facilities) then we can't stop them outside 
prisons.


T

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Stan Zaske]

Agreed, but trying to stop the influx of drugs hasn't worked and the 
billions spent would be better utilized with a multi-decade public 
education blitz and rehab. In addition, more research $'s need to be 
spent on the mechanisms involved and better drugs to wean people off the 
harder stuff. The long view, research, and public education are the best 
ways to deal with addictive behavior. Remember, you can be addicted to 
work, play, exercise, hell anything under the sun for that matter. It's 
all rooted in a person's self-esteem and throwing people in prison is 
like sending them to a college for criminals. Our current methods of 
coping with drug abuse are inadequate at best. Thanks for the feedback.


Gary Udstrand wrote:


What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
drugs solved any social ills?

-Gary



Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 3:04 AM:

 


BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in shops on
the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta love
British Columbia! 

What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't
work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of
"criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what
happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's
business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public
education and rehab rather than interdiction and criminalization!
Addictive behavior is associated with "self-esteem" and that's where
our focus should be! So much for wisdom in government!

warpmedia wrote:

   


Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere these
days! LOL

Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the little
Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course there
was the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since that
seems to be the law the get you on rather than possession or use.

FORC5 wrote:

 


"Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from cellophane
to dynamite."
Popular Mechanics, 1938


At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:

   


Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the
buds to Canada. 

gibney wrote:


 


Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.

   



 




 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Wayne Johnson]

At 11:42 AM 8/25/2005, Thane Sherrington typed:

At 12:35 PM 25/08/2005, FORC5 wrote:
not a good reason to make these products legal. same argument for giving 
kids condoms.

a society needs standards to live by


So better to keep using an idea that doesn't work can costs a fortune 
rather than trying something else?  Makes no sense to me.


Ah but why throw out the baby with the bath water? The solutions are 
probably somewhere in between. As for not trying something else all one has 
to do is look at other societies. Either way tons of money is being spent 
with minimal successful results. There will always be some kids that have a 
tough time with reality when they leave the comfort of home or the hell of 
it. There always will be people breaking relationships with others & some 
of those others resorting to drugs or booze for an easy fix but as soon as 
they realize there is no easy fix the better off they will be. Then there 
will be some that the medical doctors screw with like our neighbors across 
the street. She was put on Oxycontin after minor surgery which is a no no 
because of it's addictive qualities. She didn't feel that she could get off 
it & because she had a healthy inheritance she made the jump to H. Her 
husband was no wizard & joined in. Eventually she wound up at the hospital 
with gross sores all over & not knowing where her kids were. The courts 
took the situation under consideration & sent him to the joint for a year & 
her to a halfway house for 6 mo & the kids went to live with her mother in 
the meantime. They are all home together again after learning a tough 
lesson but it shows that if people actually care even the present system 
can work. If that had happened to me & my wife & kids at that age my folks 
would've told me that I was on our own & we would've lost the house & 
probably the kids forever. All the blame can't go on the law & the courts. 
Society I believe is just starting to realize that families need to stay 
together but with a few exceptions of course. We've seen in this country 
within families mostly that neither super strict ethics nor a complete 
break with ethics work.


Can't we all just get along? ;-)

--+--
   Wayne D. Johnson
Ashland, OH, USA 44805
 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[j m g]

But how many billions are spent on enforcement that doesn't get
anywhere.  Why even bother busting kids with a cigarette's worth of
pot?  Your taxes are already going to the 'war on drugs' and that
money isn't being wisely spent.

On 8/25/05, Gary VanderMolen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The biggest drug problem these days is ICE or crystal meth made from
> > cold pills and second a bumper crop from our buddies in Afghanistan.
> > Neither should be tolerated and those found using should be helped
> > medically, not jailed.
> 
> Do you want your taxes raised in order to pay for the repetitive
> medical treatment of those who abuse themselves willfully? I don't.
> I don't see any free alcohol abuse treatment centers either.
> Remember, those in jail for drug abuse are but the tip of the
> iceberg. People need to take ownership of their own problems and
> learn self control. Don't expect kid-glove treatment on my dime.
> 
> Gary VanderMolen
> 
> 


-- 
-jmg

Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary VanderMolen]

The biggest drug problem these days is ICE or crystal meth made from 
cold pills and second a bumper crop from our buddies in Afghanistan. 
Neither should be tolerated and those found using should be helped 
medically, not jailed.


Do you want your taxes raised in order to pay for the repetitive
medical treatment of those who abuse themselves willfully? I don't.
I don't see any free alcohol abuse treatment centers either.
Remember, those in jail for drug abuse are but the tip of the 
iceberg. People need to take ownership of their own problems and

learn self control. Don't expect kid-glove treatment on my dime.

Gary VanderMolen

Re: [H] Gas prices

[warpmedia]

"Standards"? What the hell does that mean? We got freaks around the 
world that think we are criminals for not complying with their religious 
standards and want to KILL US for it. Some standards just don't make 
sense when examined, many are arbitrary.We should be giving kids (and 
3rd world countries) condoms because we know people are going to screw, 
period.


As to standards, many people eat freshly grown things from their garden 
all the time & don't drop dead. You get into refined things and even 
with standards you have problems.


Aspartame, Sucralose, saccharin, acesulfame, MSG...

We do it everyday when we eat something with the generic catch all 
"artificial" or "natural" ingredients print on the label. Hell there's 
plenty we're allowed to consume that is KNOW to be bad, just as long as 
it's not enough to kill us outright.


The biggest drug problem these days is ICE or crystal meth made from 
cold pills and second a bumper crop from our buddies in Afghanistan. 
Neither should be tolerated and those found using should be helped 
medically, not jailed. Read any medical text listing the know drugs used 
and you'll find alcohol #1 bad drug, pot the last thing in the list.


Decriminalize pot and be on the look out for people ABUSING not simply 
using the drug, then put our drug war money to proper use helping to 
heal rather than punish.


FORC5 wrote:
  not a good reason to make these products legal. same argument for 
giving kids condoms.

a society needs standards to live by
for the live of me I can not figure out why someone would consume a 
product that they have NO FUCKING IDEA what kind of standards where used 
in manufacture. These same ppl probably want only organic food. go figure.

fp

At 07:40 AM 8/25/2005, Thane Sherrington Poked the stick with:


At 11:31 AM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:


What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
drugs solved any social ills? 



Can you name one example where making it illegal solved any social 
ills?  All anti-drug laws have gotten the US and Canada are huge 
police budgets and drugs on the streets.  If they can get drugs into 
prisons (supposedly secure facilities) then we can't stop them outside 
prisons.


T 


--
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
Sometimes, the only solution is to find a new problem.

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Eli Allen]

Decriminalization doesn't mean that society can't look at drug use as a bad 
thing.  So I don't see how societies standards are weakening.


In fact decriminalization could strengthen them, what happens to those who 
think drugs are bad but want prisons to be used for real criminals?  It 
would allow more people to become united against abusing drugs.


Eli

- Original Message - 
not a good reason to make these products legal. same argument for giving 
kids condoms.

a society needs standards to live by
for the live of me I can not figure out why someone would consume a product 
that they have NO FUCKING IDEA what kind of standards where used in 
manufacture. These same ppl probably want only organic food. go figure.
fp 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Al]

Thane Sherrington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At 12:35 PM 25/08/2005, FORC5 wrote:
> >not a good reason to make these products legal. same argument for giving 
> >kids condoms.
> >a society needs standards to live by
> 
> So better to keep using an idea that doesn't work can costs a fortune 
> rather than trying something else?  Makes no sense to me.
> 

And those standards that the society lives by change and evolve with
time. 


Al

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Thane Sherrington]

At 12:35 PM 25/08/2005, FORC5 wrote:
not a good reason to make these products legal. same argument for giving 
kids condoms.

a society needs standards to live by


So better to keep using an idea that doesn't work can costs a fortune 
rather than trying something else?  Makes no sense to me.


T 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[FORC5]

not a good reason to make these products legal. same
argument for giving kids condoms.
a society needs standards to live by
for the live of me I can not figure out why someone would consume a
product that they have NO FUCKING IDEA what kind of standards where used
in manufacture. These same ppl probably want only organic food. go
figure.
fp
At 07:40 AM 8/25/2005, Thane Sherrington Poked the stick with:
At 11:31 AM 25/08/2005, Gary
Udstrand wrote:
What happened in China when they
legalized drugs?  What about Needle
park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization
of
drugs solved any social ills?
Can you name one example where making it illegal solved any social
ills?  All anti-drug laws have gotten the US and Canada are huge
police budgets and drugs on the streets.  If they can get drugs into
prisons (supposedly secure facilities) then we can't stop them outside
prisons.
T 

-- 
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
Sometimes, the only solution is to find a new problem.

Re: Re: [H] Gas prices

[Eli Allen]

A few minor changes I'd make.  First, I'm assuming the drugs are actually 
very cheap to make.  So I say tax them very highly and they should still be 
cheaper then drugs are now and so prevent a black market,  These taxes are 
what should be used to pay for all the regulation and treatment efforts.


Second, there needs to be a law that first defines what recreational drugs 
are and second allowing discrimination against people who use them.  This 
allows for an additional incentive to keep people off the drugs.  I do 
believe the drugs do bad things to you to can cause your medical bills to go 
up and keep you from being as good of an employee from how it effects your 
mind so its not fair for the many who don't use the drugs.


Third, and probably the measure to enact first, medical research should 
never be limited arbitrarily because a chemical is considered a recreational 
drug.  A chemical is a chemical and they all have side effects, you just 
need to balance the good parts and the bad.


Eli

- Original Message - 


http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/7/ - Decriminalization
arguement.  Sounds pretty good to me...

On 8/25/05, Ben Ruset <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Freed up space in prisons better suited to real criminals.

>From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Thu Aug 25 09:31:48 CDT 2005
>To: The Hardware List 
>Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices

>What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
>park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
>drugs solved any social ills?
>
>-Gary
>
>
>
>Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 3:04 AM:
>
>> BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in shops on
>> the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta love
>> British Columbia! 
>>
>> What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't
>> work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of
>> "criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what
>> happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's
>> business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public
>> education and rehab rather than interdiction and criminalization!
>> Addictive behavior is associated with "self-esteem" and that's where
>> our focus should be! So much for wisdom in government!
>>
>> warpmedia wrote:
>>
>>> Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere these
>>> days! LOL
>>>
>>> Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the little
>>> Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course there
>>> was the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since that
>>> seems to be the law the get you on rather than possession or use.
>>>
>>> FORC5 wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from cellophane
>>>> to dynamite."
>>>> Popular Mechanics, 1938
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:
>>>>
>>>>> Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the
>>>>> buds to Canada. 
>>>>>
>>>>> gibney wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>





--
-jmg

Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

Re: Re: [H] Gas prices

[j m g]

http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/7/ - Decriminalization
arguement.  Sounds pretty good to me...

On 8/25/05, Ben Ruset <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Freed up space in prisons better suited to real criminals.
> 
> >From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Date: Thu Aug 25 09:31:48 CDT 2005
> >To: The Hardware List 
> >Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices
> 
> >What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
> >park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
> >drugs solved any social ills?
> >
> >-Gary
> >
> >
> >
> >Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 3:04 AM:
> >
> >> BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in shops on
> >> the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta love
> >> British Columbia! 
> >>
> >> What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't
> >> work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of
> >> "criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what
> >> happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's
> >> business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public
> >> education and rehab rather than interdiction and criminalization!
> >> Addictive behavior is associated with "self-esteem" and that's where
> >> our focus should be! So much for wisdom in government!
> >>
> >> warpmedia wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere these
> >>> days! LOL
> >>>
> >>> Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the little
> >>> Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course there
> >>> was the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since that
> >>> seems to be the law the get you on rather than possession or use.
> >>>
> >>> FORC5 wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> "Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from cellophane
> >>>> to dynamite."
> >>>> Popular Mechanics, 1938
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the
> >>>>> buds to Canada. 
> >>>>>
> >>>>> gibney wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> 
> 


-- 
-jmg

Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

Re: Re: [H] Gas prices

[Ben Ruset]

Freed up space in prisons better suited to real criminals.

>From: Gary Udstrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Thu Aug 25 09:31:48 CDT 2005
>To: The Hardware List 
>Subject: Re: [H] Gas prices

>What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
>park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
>drugs solved any social ills?
>
>-Gary
>
>
>
>Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 3:04 AM:
>
>> BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in shops on
>> the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta love
>> British Columbia! 
>>
>> What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't
>> work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of
>> "criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what
>> happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's
>> business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public
>> education and rehab rather than interdiction and criminalization!
>> Addictive behavior is associated with "self-esteem" and that's where
>> our focus should be! So much for wisdom in government!
>>
>> warpmedia wrote:
>>
>>> Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere these
>>> days! LOL
>>>
>>> Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the little
>>> Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course there
>>> was the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since that
>>> seems to be the law the get you on rather than possession or use.
>>>
>>> FORC5 wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from cellophane
>>>> to dynamite."
>>>> Popular Mechanics, 1938
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:
>>>>
>>>>> Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the
>>>>> buds to Canada. 
>>>>>
>>>>> gibney wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Thane Sherrington]

At 11:31 AM 25/08/2005, Gary Udstrand wrote:

What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
drugs solved any social ills?


Can you name one example where making it illegal solved any social 
ills?  All anti-drug laws have gotten the US and Canada are huge police 
budgets and drugs on the streets.  If they can get drugs into prisons 
(supposedly secure facilities) then we can't stop them outside prisons.


T 

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Gary Udstrand]

What happened in China when they legalized drugs?  What about Needle
park in Zurich?  Can you cite one example where the legalization of
drugs solved any social ills?

-Gary



Stan Zaske said the following on 8/25/2005 3:04 AM:

> BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in shops on
> the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta love
> British Columbia! 
>
> What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't
> work even after all the organized crime that came as a result of
> "criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what
> happens! So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's
> business is it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public
> education and rehab rather than interdiction and criminalization!
> Addictive behavior is associated with "self-esteem" and that's where
> our focus should be! So much for wisdom in government!
>
> warpmedia wrote:
>
>> Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere these
>> days! LOL
>>
>> Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the little
>> Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course there
>> was the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since that
>> seems to be the law the get you on rather than possession or use.
>>
>> FORC5 wrote:
>>
>>> "Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from cellophane
>>> to dynamite."
>>> Popular Mechanics, 1938
>>>
>>>
>>> At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:
>>>
 Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the
 buds to Canada. 

 gibney wrote:


> Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.
>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Stan Zaske]

BC Bud! Didn't you see the prime time report? They sell it in shops on 
the streets using the best seeds from around the globe! Gotta love 
British Columbia! 


What hypocrisy that we still haven't learned "Prohibition" doesn't work 
even after all the organized crime that came as a result of 
"criminalization"! Try to do the same with tobacco and see what happens! 
So what if you smoke a bowl in the evening to relax? Who's business is 
it anyway? Our money would be better spent on public education and rehab 
rather than interdiction and criminalization! Addictive behavior is 
associated with "self-esteem" and that's where our focus should be! So 
much for wisdom in government!


warpmedia wrote:

Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere these 
days! LOL


Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the little 
Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course there was 
the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since that seems to 
be the law the get you on rather than possession or use.


FORC5 wrote:

"Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from cellophane 
to dynamite."

Popular Mechanics, 1938


At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:

Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the 
buds to Canada. 


gibney wrote:



Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.

Re: [H] Gas prices

[warpmedia]

Well there sure is some dynamite hemp floating around somewhere these 
days! LOL


Was just in Vancouver for 8 days and never got over to the little 
Amsterdam area to see what all the fuss was about. Of course there was 
the fear of the transaction in the back of my mind since that seems to 
be the law the get you on rather than possession or use.


FORC5 wrote:

"Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from cellophane to 
dynamite."
Popular Mechanics, 1938


At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:


Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the buds to Canada. 


gibney wrote:



Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.

Re: [H] Gas prices

[FORC5]

"Over 25,000 products can be manufactured from hemp, from cellophane to 
dynamite."
Popular Mechanics, 1938


At 02:27 AM 8/24/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:
>Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the buds to 
>Canada. 
>
>gibney wrote:
>
>> Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.
>>
>>Dave Gibney
>>Pullman, WA 
>> And it wasn't the Governor :)
>>
>> 
>>
>>>-Original Message-
>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardware-
>>>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Ruset
>>>Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:57 PM
>>>To: The Hardware List
>>>Subject: Re: Re: RE: Re: [H] Gas prices
>>>
>>>I am all about Ethanol. Unfortunately in the US the corn farmers are
>>>pushing for it. Making Ethanol from Corn is the most inefficient way of
>>>doing it, and supposedly yeilds less energy than what was spent in
>>>producing it.
>>>
>>>Making Ethanol from sugar cane, as Brazil has done, makes MORE energy than
>>>what was spent in producing it, and has limited Brazil's dependance on
>>>foreign oil.
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>>From: "jeff.lane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>Date: Wed Aug 17 15:43:42 CDT 2005
>>>>To: The Hardware List 
>>>>Subject: Re: RE: Re: [H] Gas prices
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>Hell, we can grow ethanol. Read the stars, guys, we are getting screwed!
>>>> 
>>>The
>>>   
>>>
>>>>oil companies have been crying for years that oil prices are way behind
>>>>inflation. I say, so what! I thought the idea was to keep inflation down
>>>> 
>>>in
>>>   
>>>
>>>>the first place. The Government needs to include fuel and food in the
>>>>inflation indicators. Of course, if they do prime interest rates would be
>>>> 
>>>at
>>>   
>>>
>>>>50% or more by now!
>>>>
>>>>We have plenty of alternatives to gas and batteryso why not use them?
>>>> 
>>>We
>>>   
>>>
>>>>all know why. I think if this keeps up, and I see no reason for it not
>>>>too(with the oil companies' and Arab greedcan you say jihad in
>>>>disguise), we will see a flood of small companies offering conversions to
>>>>anything from chicken manure to corn flakes.
>>>>
>>>>BTW. Our new piece of crap Governor just signed a 9.5 cent increase in
>>>> 
>>>our
>>>   
>>>
>>>>state gas taxes..highest in the US..again! OH..$6.00 per
>>>> 
>>>carton
>>>   
>>>
>>>>increase for cigarettes, $6.00 per gallon booze, reinitiated the only
>>>> 
>>>estate
>>>   
>>>
>>>>taxes, and a whole lot more. We really need that right now!
>>>>
>>>>Sorryhad a senior moment and had to get that out. My fixed income
>>>> 
>>>will
>>>   
>>>
>>>>go up about $2.50 a month. Chris, you're right....I will not do math in
>>>>class
>>>>
>>>>Jeff
>>>>
>>>>From: "Ben Ruset" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>
>>>>Subject: Re: RE: Re: [H] Gas prices
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>>A few years ago BMW showed off a 5 series that ran off water. It cracked
>>>>>the water into hydrogen within the car itself.
>>>>>
>>>>>Of course that tech won't ever see the light of day. :(
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: 007 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>>>Date: Wed Aug 17 13:26:05 CDT 2005
>>>>>>To: The Hardware List 
>>>>>>Subject: RE: Re: [H] Gas prices
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The most fuel efficient cars use heavy water.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>007.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Original Message-
>>>>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Christopher
>>>>>> 
>>>Fisk
>>>   
>>>
>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:16 PM
>>>>>>To: The Hardware List
>>>>>>Subject: Re: Re: [H] Gas prices
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Ben Ruset wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's funny, though, that the gas companies are posting record
>>>>>>>   
>>>profits.
>>>   
>>>
>>>>>>>So I really wonder how much of this is an increase in oil price, and
>>>>>>>   
>>>how
>>>   
>>>
>>>>>>>much is just an excuse to charge more for gasoline.
>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>I look at it this way, assuming that a gas company wants to make 5%
>>>>>> 
>>>profit
>>>   
>>>
>>>>>>on every gallon of gas, it's in thier interest to have thier costs go
>>>>>> 
>>>up
>>>   
>>>
>>>>>>5% because then thier profit goes up too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Instead of making 5cents on gas that costs them $1.00 to make they make
>>>>>> 
>>>6
>>>   
>>>
>>>>>>cents profit on gas that cost them $1.05 to make (Or similar, you get
>>>>>> 
>>>my
>>>   
>>>
>>>>>>point =)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Also, the gas we have now was made with oil that cost $50/barrel
>>>>>> 
>>>instead
>>>   
>>>
>>>>>>of oil that cost $65/barrel, yet we're being charged the $65/barrel
>>>>>> 
>>>price!
>>>   
>>>
>>>>>>Christopher Fisk
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>I WILL NOT DO MATH IN CLASS
>>>>>>I WILL NOT DO MATH IN CLASS
>>>>>>Lisa Simpson on chalkboard in episode BABF07
>>>>>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 

-- 
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
If you steala this tagline I breaka your keyboard!

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Stan Zaske]

Better yet, grow female hemp to ferment into methane and sell the buds 
to Canada. 


gibney wrote:


 Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.

Dave Gibney
Pullman, WA 


 And it wasn't the Governor :)

 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardware-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Ruset
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:57 PM
To: The Hardware List
Subject: Re: Re: RE: Re: [H] Gas prices

I am all about Ethanol. Unfortunately in the US the corn farmers are
pushing for it. Making Ethanol from Corn is the most inefficient way of
doing it, and supposedly yeilds less energy than what was spent in
producing it.

Making Ethanol from sugar cane, as Brazil has done, makes MORE energy than
what was spent in producing it, and has limited Brazil's dependance on
foreign oil.


   


From: "jeff.lane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed Aug 17 15:43:42 CDT 2005
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: Re: RE: Re: [H] Gas prices
 


Hell, we can grow ethanol. Read the stars, guys, we are getting screwed!
 


The
   


oil companies have been crying for years that oil prices are way behind
inflation. I say, so what! I thought the idea was to keep inflation down
 


in
   


the first place. The Government needs to include fuel and food in the
inflation indicators. Of course, if they do prime interest rates would be
 


at
   


50% or more by now!

We have plenty of alternatives to gas and batteryso why not use them?
 


We
   


all know why. I think if this keeps up, and I see no reason for it not
too(with the oil companies' and Arab greedcan you say jihad in
disguise), we will see a flood of small companies offering conversions to
anything from chicken manure to corn flakes.

BTW. Our new piece of crap Governor just signed a 9.5 cent increase in
 


our
   


state gas taxes..highest in the US..again! OH..$6.00 per
 


carton
   


increase for cigarettes, $6.00 per gallon booze, reinitiated the only
 


estate
   


taxes, and a whole lot more. We really need that right now!

Sorryhad a senior moment and had to get that out. My fixed income
 


will
   


go up about $2.50 a month. Chris, you're rightI will not do math in
class

Jeff

From: "Ben Ruset" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Subject: Re: RE: Re: [H] Gas prices


 


A few years ago BMW showed off a 5 series that ran off water. It cracked
the water into hydrogen within the car itself.

Of course that tech won't ever see the light of day. :(

   


From: 007 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed Aug 17 13:26:05 CDT 2005
To: The Hardware List 
Subject: RE: Re: [H] Gas prices
 


The most fuel efficient cars use heavy water.

007.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Christopher
 


Fisk
   


Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:16 PM
To: The Hardware List
Subject: Re: Re: [H] Gas prices


On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Ben Ruset wrote:

 


It's funny, though, that the gas companies are posting record
   


profits.
   


So I really wonder how much of this is an increase in oil price, and
   


how
   


much is just an excuse to charge more for gasoline.
   


I look at it this way, assuming that a gas company wants to make 5%
 


profit
   


on every gallon of gas, it's in thier interest to have thier costs go
 


up
   


5% because then thier profit goes up too.

Instead of making 5cents on gas that costs them $1.00 to make they make
 


6
   


cents profit on gas that cost them $1.05 to make (Or similar, you get
 


my
   


point =)


Also, the gas we have now was made with oil that cost $50/barrel
 


instead
   


of oil that cost $65/barrel, yet we're being charged the $65/barrel
 


price!
   


Christopher Fisk
--
I WILL NOT DO MATH IN CLASS
I WILL NOT DO MATH IN CLASS
Lisa Simpson on chalkboard in episode BABF07
 






 

RE: Re: RE: Re: [H] Gas prices

[gibney]

  Industrial hemp, digested to methane and powering fuel cells.

Dave Gibney
Pullman, WA 

  And it wasn't the Governor :)

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardware-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Ruset
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:57 PM
> To: The Hardware List
> Subject: Re: Re: RE: Re: [H] Gas prices
> 
> I am all about Ethanol. Unfortunately in the US the corn farmers are
> pushing for it. Making Ethanol from Corn is the most inefficient way of
> doing it, and supposedly yeilds less energy than what was spent in
> producing it.
> 
> Making Ethanol from sugar cane, as Brazil has done, makes MORE energy than
> what was spent in producing it, and has limited Brazil's dependance on
> foreign oil.
> 
> 
> >From: "jeff.lane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Date: Wed Aug 17 15:43:42 CDT 2005
> >To: The Hardware List 
> >Subject: Re: RE: Re: [H] Gas prices
> 
> >Hell, we can grow ethanol. Read the stars, guys, we are getting screwed!
> The
> >oil companies have been crying for years that oil prices are way behind
> >inflation. I say, so what! I thought the idea was to keep inflation down
> in
> >the first place. The Government needs to include fuel and food in the
> >inflation indicators. Of course, if they do prime interest rates would be
> at
> >50% or more by now!
> >
> >We have plenty of alternatives to gas and batteryso why not use them?
> We
> >all know why. I think if this keeps up, and I see no reason for it not
> >too(with the oil companies' and Arab greedcan you say jihad in
> >disguise), we will see a flood of small companies offering conversions to
> >anything from chicken manure to corn flakes.
> >
> >BTW. Our new piece of crap Governor just signed a 9.5 cent increase in
> our
> >state gas taxes..highest in the US..again! OH..$6.00 per
> carton
> >increase for cigarettes, $6.00 per gallon booze, reinitiated the only
> estate
> >taxes, and a whole lot more. We really need that right now!
> >
> >Sorryhad a senior moment and had to get that out. My fixed income
> will
> >go up about $2.50 a month. Chris, you're rightI will not do math in
> >class
> >
> >Jeff
> >
> >From: "Ben Ruset" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >Subject: Re: RE: Re: [H] Gas prices
> >
> >
> >>A few years ago BMW showed off a 5 series that ran off water. It cracked
> >>the water into hydrogen within the car itself.
> >>
> >> Of course that tech won't ever see the light of day. :(
> >>
> >>>From: 007 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>Date: Wed Aug 17 13:26:05 CDT 2005
> >>>To: The Hardware List 
> >>>Subject: RE: Re: [H] Gas prices
> >>
> >>>The most fuel efficient cars use heavy water.
> >>>
> >>>007.
> >>>
> >>>-Original Message-
> >>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Christopher
> Fisk
> >>>Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:16 PM
> >>>To: The Hardware List
> >>>Subject: Re: Re: [H] Gas prices
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Ben Ruset wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> It's funny, though, that the gas companies are posting record
> profits.
> >>>> So I really wonder how much of this is an increase in oil price, and
> how
> >>>> much is just an excuse to charge more for gasoline.
> >>>
> >>>I look at it this way, assuming that a gas company wants to make 5%
> profit
> >>>on every gallon of gas, it's in thier interest to have thier costs go
> up
> >>>5% because then thier profit goes up too.
> >>>
> >>>Instead of making 5cents on gas that costs them $1.00 to make they make
> 6
> >>>cents profit on gas that cost them $1.05 to make (Or similar, you get
> my
> >>>point =)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Also, the gas we have now was made with oil that cost $50/barrel
> instead
> >>>of oil that cost $65/barrel, yet we're being charged the $65/barrel
> price!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Christopher Fisk
> >>>--
> >>>I WILL NOT DO MATH IN CLASS
> >>>I WILL NOT DO MATH IN CLASS
> >>> Lisa Simpson on chalkboard in episode BABF07

Re: [H] Gas prices

[Stan Zaske]

The delay in coming on messed with my mind for a bit but you get used to 
it and I like the color of the light better.



FORC5 wrote:

tried those, hope u have better luck then me, mostly they didn't last 
and I got tired to the not instant on.
I would like to invent a bathroom fan switch with a built in timer of 
only a couple of minutes, on and off in a couple of minutes instead of 
sucking all the cooling/heating out of the house when u forget to turn 
it off. })(

fp

At 12:36 AM 8/19/2005, Stan Zaske Poked the stick with:

When they come out with LED room lights I'll buy them. Last Spring I 
converted all the incandescents in my apartment to compact 
fluorescents for $30 and each one uses 26 watts for 100 watt 
equivalent output. Who cares if it doesn't make short term economic 
sense, I have lower electric bills and they won't have to be replaced 
for 5-7 years (if the claims are acurate).


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


--
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
I WILL NOT CALL THE PRINCIPAL "SPUD HEAD"
I WILL NOT CALL THE PRINCIPAL "SPUD HEAD"
Bart Simpson on chalkboard in episode 9F13



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.13/78 - Release Date: 8/19/2005
 

Re: CFLs was > [H] Gas prices

[FORC5]

seen those but I want to have it preset to a certain amount
of time, do not need 30 minutes
but a good idea
thanks
At 11:33 AM 8/19/2005, Analyst Poked the stick with:
Beat ya to it.
I bought a timer switch that replaces the wall switch. So instead of
flipping the switch, you turn the knob. The timer is variable from one to
thirty minutes.

Vince

-- 
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
I need a drink...where's the SPACE BAR?

Re: Re: CFLs was > [H] Gas prices

[Ben Ruset]

Why not just have the fan & light turn on together?

>From: Analyst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Fri Aug 19 13:33:08 CDT 2005
>To: The Hardware List 
>Subject: Re: CFLs   was > [H] Gas prices

>On 19 Aug 2005 at 6:47, FORC5 wrote:
>
>> tried those, hope u have better luck then me, mostly they didn't last
>> and I got tired to the not instant on.
>
>That was the first generation models. The current ones are instant on. Check 
>out Home Depot, they have three-paks for $5.
>
>Don't look by the light bulbs, they have them in the lighting department, 
>where the light fixtures and ceiling fans are hanging.
>
>
>
>> I would like to invent a bathroom fan switch with a built in timer of
>> only a couple of minutes, on and off in a couple of minutes instead of
>> sucking all the cooling/heating out of the house when u forget to turn
>> it off. 
>
>Beat ya to it.
>
>I bought a timer switch that replaces the wall switch. So instead of flipping 
>the switch, you turn the knob. The timer is variable from one to thirty 
>minutes.
>
>
>Vince