subject:"\[H\] It's bad, really bad \- Katrina"

God help those who try and go back. NO is home to about a dozen
superfund sites. There's a lot of heavy industry, petro, plastics
all around NO. Who know's what's floating around.

And why not blame Bush and the Republicans? They've controlled
the the executive for 5 years and legislative since Clintons
presidency. I'm getting fed up with the neocons and freepers
twisting everything around to suit them.On 9/1/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:- Original Message -From: Wayne Johnson 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.comSent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina housing building codes back then like they do now so to say they're doing nothing is false. Most of the buildings in the French Quarter  etc have
 been there for over a century. I went to an elementary school in NO  was terrified when I was told that the city was below sea level. I wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper  faster  safer for everyone to just evacuate the
 city totally  permanently.We had the flood of the century in Albany, GA in 1994 and another big one in1998 and several smaller ones since. I hate to be the bearer of bad news,but how can they not expect another one before they fix up from this one?
Let recent statistics be the prophets.Chuck-- -jmgChaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


Chris,


 You also, however, forget that several people were indicted for
 embezzlement out of the project and that a congressional budget audit
 made clear that the books could not be reconciled.
 
 Project Impact was always designed at small grants given to
 communities to develop planning.. example:
 
 http://www.fema.gov/regions/vii/1998/98r7n033.shtm
 
 Grants were generally smaller then $250,000.
 
 As an example of their guidelines:
 
 Project Impact is built around 3 basic principles: 1) preventative
 measures must be decided at the local level; 2) private sector
 participation is vital; and 3) long term efforts and investments in
 prevention measures are essential. 

That was a different segment of the program, which dealt only with the items 
you just outlined on the state and local level. 



 The idea of project impact was never the government provides the
 plan rather it was that the government would provide seed money for
 the community to develop a strategic plan.. 

Au contraire.

'Project Impact' also involved federal planning to mitigate the damage done by 
large natural disasters by taking measures that would be crucial to a strategy 
to save lives and cut 
recovery costs.  

FEMA had pre-planned a New Orleans nightmare scenario, in which the federal 
government figured it would pre-deploy nearby ships with pumps to remove water 
from the 
below-sea-level city and have hospital ships nearby.  

Since 2001, the Bushies have been slashing key federal disaster mitigation 
programs, and FEMA's 'Project Impact', created by the Clinton administration, 
has been outright 
cancelled.  

The result ?

No pre-deployed ships to pump out the water, and only ONE hospital ship has 
been allocated to the area, but it didn't leave it's port until Friday, AFTER 
the hurricane struck.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12528233.htm



 So, the proposal was to create upstream spillways through a split
 levee system, to have a break point on the inflow of water or a
 controlled spilloff to lower the water table.
 
 But the problem is, people everywhere protested.
 
 Wildlife Defense Fund protested; Conservative Taxpayer Network
 protested; etc.
 
 Also amongst groups that protested:
 
 PETA, World Wildlife Fund, National Conservation Society, (Left) Turkey
 Watch, TaxPayer Network, Government Abuse Hotline (Right) 

Except those 'protests' were about the REDESIGN and expansion of the levee 
system and it's spillways and locks.

It's a different kettle of fish that because of the Bushies budget cuts, the 
Corps essentially stopped major work on the now-breached levee system that had 
protected New 
Orleans from flooding. It was the first such stoppage in 37 years, the 
Times-Picayune reported.  

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12528233.htm


Vince

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-09-01 Thread Al


Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Au contraire.
 
 'Project Impact' also involved federal planning to mitigate the damage done 
 by large natural disasters by taking measures that would be crucial to a 
 strategy to save lives and cut 
 recovery costs.  
 
 FEMA had pre-planned a New Orleans nightmare scenario, in which the 
 federal government figured it would pre-deploy nearby ships with pumps to 
 remove water from the 
 below-sea-level city and have hospital ships nearby.  
 
 Since 2001, the Bushies have been slashing key federal disaster mitigation 
 programs, and FEMA's 'Project Impact', created by the Clinton administration, 
 has been outright 
 cancelled.  
 
 The result ?
 
 No pre-deployed ships to pump out the water, and only ONE hospital ship has 
 been allocated to the area, but it didn't leave it's port until Friday, AFTER 
 the hurricane struck.
 
 http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12528233.htm

This Administration and Congress don't care about the common people. 
Only the rich, the corporations and profits.

Al

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

Just because folks protested doesn't mean they've got their way.
There was ton's of protesting when the petro companies started setting
up the canals to host their infrastructure, part of the reason the
southern wetlands have gone from a 200 mile to 30 mile buffer area is
directly related to all the heavy industry. Guess what, now that
heavy industry is thinking that the gulf coast might be too expensive
to operate in.On 9/1/05, Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris, You also, however, forget that several people were indicted for embezzlement out of the project and that a congressional budget audit made clear that the books could not be reconciled.
 Project Impact was always designed at small grants given to communities to develop planning.. example: http://www.fema.gov/regions/vii/1998/98r7n033.shtm
 Grants were generally smaller then $250,000. As an example of their guidelines: Project Impact is built around 3 basic principles: 1) preventative measures must be decided at the local level; 2) private sector
 participation is vital; and 3) long term efforts and investments in prevention measures are essential.That was a different segment of the program, which dealt only with the items you just outlined on the state and local level.
 The idea of project impact was never the government provides the plan rather it was that the government would provide seed money for the community to develop a strategic plan..
Au contraire.'Project
Impact' also involved federal planning to mitigate the damage done by
large natural disasters by taking measures that would be crucial to a
strategy to save lives and cutrecovery costs.FEMA had
pre-planned a New Orleans nightmare scenario, in which the federal
government figured it would pre-deploy nearby ships with pumps to
remove water from thebelow-sea-level city and have hospital ships nearby.Since
2001, the Bushies have been slashing key federal disaster mitigation
programs, and FEMA's 'Project Impact', created by the Clinton
administration, has been outrightcancelled.The result ?No
pre-deployed ships to pump out the water, and only ONE hospital ship
has been allocated to the area, but it didn't leave it's port until
Friday, AFTER the hurricane struck.http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12528233.htm So, the proposal was to create upstream spillways through a split
 levee system, to have a break point on the inflow of water or a controlled spilloff to lower the water table. But the problem is, people everywhere protested. Wildlife Defense Fund protested; Conservative Taxpayer Network
 protested; etc. Also amongst groups that protested: PETA, World Wildlife Fund, National Conservation Society, (Left) Turkey Watch, TaxPayer Network, Government Abuse Hotline (Right)
Except those 'protests' were about the REDESIGN and expansion of the levee system and it's spillways and locks.It's
a different kettle of fish that because of the Bushies budget cuts,
the Corps essentially stopped major work on the now-breached levee
system that had protected NewOrleans from flooding. It was the first such stoppage in 37 years, the Times-Picayune reported.http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12528233.htm
Vince-- -jmgChaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


 Except those 'protests' were about the REDESIGN and expansion of the levee 
 system and it's spillways and locks.
 
 It's a different kettle of fish that because of the Bushies budget cuts, the 
 Corps essentially stopped major work on the now-breached levee system that 
 had protected New 
 Orleans from flooding. It was the first such stoppage in 37 years, the 
 Times-Picayune reported.  
 
 http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12528233.htm
 

I think if you read through the ACE report to the senate in 1997, they argued 
(and several argued against) that without a complete reconstructure of upstream 
levees and a redesign of spillways, there was very little with the ground 
given.. outside of massive imminent domain claims as city projects were built 
too close to current levees.

Many argued this was the wrong way to look at it, but four times this was 
proposed.  

I do agree with those who say hey, just because people protested that's 
right, occassionally the government has to do what is politically unpopular.  
But let's be honest, with so many groups protesting, and so many in office in 
the senate / house on both sides living and dying off of the goodwill of the 
people who support those causes, no one had the testicular fortitude to do the 
right thing.

CW

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

Part of the criticism levied at bushco right now though hinges around
the simple fact that the federal money to simply maintain the levee's
vanished with the onset of the war in iraq and afghanistan and all the
spending on DHS, oh and the TSA, oh and the ill advised tax cuts...On 9/1/05, CW [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Except those 'protests' were about the REDESIGN and expansion of the levee system and it's spillways and locks.

It's a different kettle of fish that because of the Bushies budget
cuts, the Corps essentially stopped major work on the now-breached
levee system that had protected New Orleans from flooding. It was the first such stoppage in 37 years, the Times-Picayune reported. 
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12528233.htmI
think if you read through the ACE report to the senate in 1997, they
argued (and several argued against) that without a complete
reconstructure of upstream levees and a redesign of spillways, there
was very little with the ground given.. outside of massive imminent
domain claims as city projects were built too close to current levees.Many argued this was the wrong way to look at it, but four times this was proposed.I
do agree with those who say hey, just because people protested that's
right, occassionally the government has to do what is politically
unpopular.But let's be honest, with so many groups
protesting, and so many in office in the senate / house on both sides
living and dying off of the goodwill of the people who support those
causes, no one had the testicular fortitude to do the right thing.CW-- -jmgChaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-09-01 Thread FORC5



and it does not matter whom is in office IMO 
fp
At 09:41 AM 9/1/2005, Al Poked the stick with:
This Administration and Congress
don't care about the common people. 
Only the rich, the corporations and profits.
Al 

-- 
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
It's who you look like..Not who you are.

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-09-01 Thread FORC5



and if the dog hadn't stopped to take a shit he would have
caught the rabbit 
At 10:40 AM 9/1/2005, j m g Poked the stick with:
Part of the criticism levied at
bushco right now though hinges around the simple fact that the federal
money to simply maintain the levee's vanished with the onset of the war
in iraq and afghanistan and all the spending on DHS, oh and the TSA, oh
and the ill advised tax cuts...

-- 
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
It's who you look like..Not who you are.

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

The problem with the repair was that many even within the department disagreed 
with the project entirely.  Rebulking the current sitting levees (not a 
redesign, a reset  repair) was something that even those within the USMS had 
some oppossition to.. the current weight and buttressing of the sitting levees 
was creating infrastructure problems (or at least they contended) and the 
continual enhancement of them was causing the nearby land area to sink even 
more then doing nothing; so, the Army Corp of Engineers proposed that such 
projects were fools errands and they argued that they were not the solution, 
they were the problem.. they contended that spillways and secondary runoffs 
were the most viable solution.

Now, this doesn't mean that there assessment was right.  But a lot of people on 
both sides did by into it, and -some- of the secondary spillway money was 
approved (though it won't see any impact until about 2007) so the largest 
amount spent in almost 30 years went to reconstructing secondary spillways.

At the same time, efforts to rebuttress the current levees did diminish - in 
proposal, with the cuts taking direct impact in the FY 2006 budget.

Note that here:


-Original message-
From: Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu,  1 Sep 2005 11:56:08 -0500
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

 
 Chris,
 
 
  I think if you read through the ACE report to the senate in 1997, they
  argued (and several argued against) that without a complete
  reconstructure of upstream levees and a redesign of spillways, there
  was very little with the ground given.. outside of massive imminent
  domain claims as city projects were built too close to current levees.
  
  Many argued this was the wrong way to look at it, but four times this
  was proposed.  
  
  I do agree with those who say hey, just because people protested
  that's right, occassionally the government has to do what is
  politically unpopular.  But let's be honest, with so many groups
  protesting, and so many in office in the senate / house on both sides
  living and dying off of the goodwill of the people who support those
  causes, no one had the testicular fortitude to do the right thing.
 
 But you're still referencing the future plans to REDESIGN the entire 
 infrastructure, and I assume there was plenty to argue about on that count.
 
 The issue is that the repair, maintenance, and beefing-up of the levees, the 
 very levees that broke through, was STOPPED in 2004, for the first time in 37 
 years, because of the 
 Bushies massive budget cuts.
 
 
 Vince

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Analyst wrote:

The issue is that the repair, maintenance, and beefing-up of the 
levees, the very levees that broke through, was STOPPED in 2004, for the 
first time in 37 years, because of the Bushies massive budget cuts.


Why didn't the city of NO pick up where the federal government stopped? 
I mean hell, it's thier Levees!



Christopher Fisk

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

The problem with the repair was that many even within the department disagreed 
with the project entirely.  Rebulking the current sitting levees (not a 
redesign, a reset  repair) was something that even those within the USMS had 
some oppossition to.. the current weight and buttressing of the sitting levees 
was creating infrastructure problems (or at least they contended) and the 
continual enhancement of them was causing the nearby land area to sink even 
more then doing nothing; so, the Army Corp of Engineers proposed that such 
projects were fools errands and they argued that they were not the solution, 
they were the problem.. they contended that spillways and secondary runoffs 
were the most viable solution.

Now, this doesn't mean that there assessment was right.  But a lot of people on 
both sides did by into it, and -some- of the secondary spillway money was 
approved (though it won't see any impact until about 2007) so the largest 
amount spent in almost 30 years went to reconstructing secondary spillways.

At the same time, efforts to rebuttress the current levees did diminish - in 
proposal, with the cuts taking direct impact in the FY 2006 budget.

Note that here:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050606/ai_n14657367


Now, the reality is, New Orleans was hit with basically a Category THREE 
hurricane.  Not a FIVE.  While some of Mississippi, etc. was hit with a higher 
storm, the current estimated storm values for New Orleans is around 122 MPH, or 
a Category 3.  In an area where the entire city is constructing itself closer 
and closer to the levees, and where they have enacted continual excavation 
projects, they have lowered their relative land-level in comparison to 
surrounding land area as well as to the ocean.  The entire city sits below the 
ocean, below the river, and below the lake.

Was the ACE proposal the right one?  Who knows.  But the patchwork proposals, 
which were investigated several times for trouble with graft (millions of 
dollars up and dissappeared, according to CBO audits) and with the proposals 
moving the other way, the upkeep proposals were diminished.   

Was this the right strategy?  I would agree with you that it was not.  However, 
would even the basic upkeep strategies made any difference?  I would argue no, 
they would make no difference at all.  And I would argue if Katrina had not 
turned eastward, and full brunt had hit New Orleans, it wouldn't have mattered 
at all.

In 1980, there were big complaints about how USGS funding went down in 78  79 
before Mt. St. Helens erupted.  Well, I know it's cruel, but if you built your 
house on a Volcano and thought the government could save you, you were a fool.  
People in Pompei learned that one.  Nothing any administration could do would 
raise the relative sea level of New Orleans.  And New Orleans and the State of 
Louisiana had used their federal block grants for a few hundred million extra 
to redo the Super Dome.  

So, did both the feds  the state make a mistake?  Yes.  Did that mistake make 
any substantial difference in the outcome?  I don't think so nothing anyone 
was going to do would change the layout of the city, where it was built, how it 
was built, nor the nature of the system in place.

Now we'll see.

Last night, when we last heard from my brother, he had told us that they 
project a 10 month cleanup from pumping.  Even if none of the Levees broke 
(which, BTW, the break in the Ponchatrain levee is less then they had 
anticipated by a great deal) the pumping from the waves of water in would have 
still been a multi-month project, regardless of any fresh water intake or not.

-Original message-
From: Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu,  1 Sep 2005 11:56:08 -0500
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

 
 Chris,
 
 
  I think if you read through the ACE report to the senate in 1997, they
  argued (and several argued against) that without a complete
  reconstructure of upstream levees and a redesign of spillways, there
  was very little with the ground given.. outside of massive imminent
  domain claims as city projects were built too close to current levees.
  
  Many argued this was the wrong way to look at it, but four times this
  was proposed.  
  
  I do agree with those who say hey, just because people protested
  that's right, occassionally the government has to do what is
  politically unpopular.  But let's be honest, with so many groups
  protesting, and so many in office in the senate / house on both sides
  living and dying off of the goodwill of the people who support those
  causes, no one had the testicular fortitude to do the right thing.
 
 But you're still referencing the future plans to REDESIGN the entire 
 infrastructure, and I assume there was plenty to argue about on that count.

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

Remember, until 1997 FY, Louisiana, with an 18 year old drinking age, had been 
locked out of federal hiway funds, as well as having been locked out of 
land-based-grant programs until their drinking age became 21.  So, until then, 
the state really had almost no money to do such projects; by congressional 
rules, no money for anything other then federal projects could be handed to 
them.

-Original message-
From: Christopher Fisk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu,  1 Sep 2005 12:12:37 -0500
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

 On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Analyst wrote:

  The issue is that the repair, maintenance, and beefing-up of the 
  levees, the very levees that broke through, was STOPPED in 2004, for the 
  first time in 37 years, because of the Bushies massive budget cuts.

 Why didn't the city of NO pick up where the federal government stopped? 
 I mean hell, it's thier Levees!

 Christopher Fisk

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-09-01 Thread Eli Allen

In addition, when Bush tries to use the nobody could have anticipated 
defense:

I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4204754.stm

I.e lies to the public, he deserves to be critized.  Sure maybe Chris is 
right in that there wasn't much that could be done but everyone knew that it 
could happen and there should have been some plans on what to do if it did 
happen.


Eli
- Original Message - 

Part of the criticism levied at bushco right now though hinges around the 
simple fact that the federal money to simply maintain the levee's vanished 
with the onset of the war in iraq and afghanistan and all the spending on 
DHS, oh and the TSA, oh and the ill advised tax cuts...

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


Chris,


 The problem with the repair was that many even within the department
 disagreed with the project entirely.  Rebulking the current sitting
 levees (not a redesign, a reset  repair) was something that even
 those within the USMS had some oppossition to.. the current weight and
 buttressing of the sitting levees was creating infrastructure problems
 (or at least they contended) and the continual enhancement of them was
 causing the nearby land area to sink even more then doing nothing;
 so, the Army Corp of Engineers proposed that such projects were fools
 errands and they argued that they were not the solution, they were
 the problem.. they contended that spillways and secondary runoffs were
 the most viable solution.

You're still off some tangent. Several areas of the levees had been  down to 
FOUR FEET in height, and the repairs were in progress.

I'd like to see the opposition to THAT, and I don't mean by anti-tax groups 
that don't want to spend money on anything besides a national defense.



 At the same time, efforts to rebuttress the current levees did
 diminish - in proposal, with the cuts taking direct impact in the FY
 2006 budget.

Nope:

Federal flood control spending for Southeastern Louisiana has been chopped 
from $69 million in 2001 to $36.5 million in 2005, according to budget 
documents. Federal hurricane 
protection for the Lake Pontchartrain vicinity in the Army Corps of Engineers' 
budget dropped from $14.25 million in 2002 to $5.7 million this year.

Both the New Orleans Times-Picayune newspaper and a local business magazine 
reported that the effects of the budget cuts at the Army Corps of Engineers 
were severe.


Vince

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, CW wrote:


The issue is that the repair, maintenance, and beefing-up of the
levees, the very levees that broke through, was STOPPED in 2004, for the
first time in 37 years, because of the Bushies massive budget cuts.


Why didn't the city of NO pick up where the federal government stopped?
I mean hell, it's thier Levees!


New York City has it's own tax collection.  Send out the collector and get 
money to work the Levees.  It's not a state issue, it's a city one.  That 
is what I'm saying.



Christopher Fisk
--
A FIRE DRILL DOES NOT DEMAND A FIRE
A FIRE DRILL DOES NOT DEMAND A FIRE
Bart Simpson on chalkboard in episode 4F16

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


Chris,


 So, did both the feds  the state make a mistake?  Yes.  Did that
 mistake make any substantial difference in the outcome?  I don't think
 so 

So it's your position that finishing the repairs on the the levees,  the 
pre-positioning of many pumping ships and hospital ships, let alone the 
organization of a coordinated air lift, 
would not have made any substantial difference in the outcome ?


Vince

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

Oh, I think it's foolish to say no one anticipated a break in the levees.

However, what are you going to say before hand?  Because the state of Louisiana 
did a really poor job of spinning I-10 to go one direction, would you say two 
days beforehand: We think this may break the levees?  What good do you get 
out of that?  Riots as people kill each other to be the one who gets out?

Yeah, I think the statement is completely foolish; but *shrug* who doesn't 
count on that kind of foolishness ;)

CW

-Original message-
From: Eli Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu,  1 Sep 2005 12:34:38 -0500
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

 In addition, when Bush tries to use the nobody could have anticipated 
 defense:
 I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. 
 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4204754.stm
 
 I.e lies to the public, he deserves to be critized.  Sure maybe Chris is 
 right in that there wasn't much that could be done but everyone knew that it 
 could happen and there should have been some plans on what to do if it did 
 happen.
 
 Eli
 - Original Message - 
 
 Part of the criticism levied at bushco right now though hinges around the 
 simple fact that the federal money to simply maintain the levee's vanished 
 with the onset of the war in iraq and afghanistan and all the spending on 
 DHS, oh and the TSA, oh and the ill advised tax cuts...

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

It was much easier to put $200M to the Superdome.

CW

-Original message-
From: Christopher Fisk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu,  1 Sep 2005 12:36:08 -0500
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

 On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, CW wrote:

  The issue is that the repair, maintenance, and beefing-up of the
  levees, the very levees that broke through, was STOPPED in 2004, for the
  first time in 37 years, because of the Bushies massive budget cuts.

  Why didn't the city of NO pick up where the federal government stopped?
  I mean hell, it's thier Levees!

 New York City has it's own tax collection.  Send out the collector and get 
 money to work the Levees.  It's not a state issue, it's a city one.  That 
 is what I'm saying.

 Christopher Fisk
 -- 
 A FIRE DRILL DOES NOT DEMAND A FIRE
 A FIRE DRILL DOES NOT DEMAND A FIRE
   Bart Simpson on chalkboard in episode 4F16

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

On 1 Sep 2005 at 14:03, Christopher Fisk wrote:

  The issue is that the repair, maintenance, and beefing-up of the
  levees, the very levees that broke through, was STOPPED in 2004, for
  the first time in 37 years, because of the Bushies massive budget
  cuts.
 
 Why didn't the city of NO pick up where the federal government
 stopped? I mean hell, it's thier Levees!

How are the locals supposed to raise an additional $40-$50 BILLION ?

Vince

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

You're still off some tangent. Several areas of the levees had been down to
FOUR FEET in height, and the repairs were in progress.

I'd like to see the opposition to THAT, and I don't mean by anti-tax groups
that don't want to spend money on anything besides a national defense.

I'm not proclaiming oppossition to that. Moreover, let's really get to it..
levees weren't down to four feet, they had -sunk- four feet:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313

The panel authorized that money, and on July 1, 2004, it had to pony up another
$250,000 when it learned that stretches of the levee in Metairie had sunk by
four feet.

Here's what was happening: as we kept restructuring the levees, they kept
gaining more heft.. and they sunk faster and faster. From 1995-2001, we spent
more then $240M. And I agree that cutting the budget on this item, in
retrospect, could have been reviewed. But let's see what we got.. we spent the
most money imaginable after 1995, and the levees sunk -quicker- in that 6 year
period then over the 20 years preceeding. Shouldn't that have told us
something? It should have told us one of two things: either this whole thing
was idiotic and we should just abandon the city and realize that while it was
great military positioning for the French in 1712, it's stupidity now; or we
should have realized that this would be a continuous spending spree to hold a
little dutch boy's finger in the dyke.

Federal flood control spending for Southeastern Louisiana has been chopped
from $69 million in 2001 to $36.5 million in 2005, according to budget
documents. Federal hurricane
protection for the Lake Pontchartrain vicinity in the Army Corps of
Engineers' budget dropped from $14.25 million in 2002 to $5.7 million this
year.

Both the New Orleans Times-Picayune newspaper and a local business magazine
reported that the effects of the budget cuts at the Army Corps of Engineers
were severe.

As I noted, because the ACE submitted their budgets which were mostly gutted,
they didn't plan on dispersement well.. and some projects where senators had a
lot more power did better. After all, how many people right or left were
really eager to help a flailing Trent Lott in 2002 after his debacle.. kicking
him while he was down by cutting into state subsidies was pretty entertaining
for everyone.

So, in the end (going year by year) we went from a project in 1995 that was
proposed to spend $430M over 10 years to a project that spent slightly under
$360M over ten years.

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

NYC gets ton's of federal aid. Museums, bridges, hospitals, tons
of cash go to various projects/causes, both infrastructure and fluff.On 9/1/05, Christopher Fisk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, CW wrote: The issue is that the repair, maintenance, and beefing-up of the
 levees, the very levees that broke through, was STOPPED in 2004, for the first time in 37 years, because of the Bushies massive budget cuts. Why didn't the city of NO pick up where the federal government stopped?
 I mean hell, it's thier Levees!New York City has it's own tax collection.Send out the collector and getmoney to work the Levees.It's not a state issue, it's a city one.Thatis what I'm saying.
Christopher Fisk--A FIRE DRILL DOES NOT DEMAND A FIREA FIRE DRILL DOES NOT DEMAND A FIREBart Simpson on chalkboard in episode 4F16-- -jmg
Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

And I'm sure everyone's overjoyed to know that the Pentagon's Patriot Day festivities are still fully funded...On 9/1/05, j m g 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:NYC gets ton's of federal aid. Museums, bridges, hospitals, tons
of cash go to various projects/causes, both infrastructure and fluff.On 9/1/05, Christopher Fisk 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, CW wrote: The issue is that the repair, maintenance, and beefing-up of the
 levees, the very levees that broke through, was STOPPED in 2004, for the first time in 37 years, because of the Bushies massive budget cuts. Why didn't the city of NO pick up where the federal government stopped?
 I mean hell, it's thier Levees!New York City has it's own tax collection.Send out the collector and getmoney to work the Levees.It's not a state issue, it's a city one.Thatis what I'm saying.
Christopher Fisk--A FIRE DRILL DOES NOT DEMAND A FIREA FIRE DRILL DOES NOT DEMAND A FIREBart Simpson on chalkboard in episode 4F16
-- -jmg
Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918] 

-- -jmgChaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Analyst wrote:


On 1 Sep 2005 at 14:03, Christopher Fisk wrote:


The issue is that the repair, maintenance, and beefing-up of the
levees, the very levees that broke through, was STOPPED in 2004, for
the first time in 37 years, because of the Bushies massive budget
cuts.


Why didn't the city of NO pick up where the federal government
stopped? I mean hell, it's thier Levees!


How are the locals supposed to raise an additional $40-$50 BILLION ?


WTF do they need 40-50 BILLION to upkeep the current levee's?  The Federal 
Budget was just 70 million for the levees.



Christopher Fisk
--
Marge:	Homie, are you really going to ignore Grampa for the rest of your 
life?

Homer:  Of course not, Marge, just for the rest of his life.
Grampa vs. Sexual Inadequacy

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


Chris,


 WTF do they need 40-50 BILLION to upkeep the current levee's?  The
 Federal Budget was just 70 million for the levees.

Sorry, that was a typo. That should be $40-$50 MILLION.

That's what the cuts were, annually.


Vince

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

You know what, we can go back and forth about why and who should have
paid for what, state, local or federal funding. But this is a
big, big, disaster, where is the federal response?

check out cnn.comOn 9/1/05, Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris, WTF do they need 40-50 BILLION to upkeep the current levee's?The Federal Budget was just 70 million for the levees.Sorry, that was a typo. That should be $40-$50 MILLION.
That's what the cuts were, annually.Vince-- -jmgChaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

On 1 Sep 2005 at 15:15, j m g wrote:

 You know what, we can go back and forth about why and who should have
 paid for what, state, local or federal funding. But this is a big,
 big, disaster, where is the federal response?

On vacation.


Vince

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

Understandable.  But to say where were they to come up with $40-$50M is
somewhat laughable also.. New Orleans spent over $320M in the last three
years divided between the New Orleans Saints stipend program, Superdome
rebuild, and guarantees in fees paid to the now New Orleans Hornets.

So, they have plenty of money to spend on a Superdome that was Category 5
resistant that blew apart in a Category 3 wind force, and plenty of money
to pay out to the NBA in revenue fees.. but damn, that $40M for levees, you
know, the survival stuff.. eh, I guess that wasn't as important ;)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Analyst
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 3:12 PM
To: The Hardware List
Subject: RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


Chris,


 WTF do they need 40-50 BILLION to upkeep the current levee's?  The
 Federal Budget was just 70 million for the levees.

Sorry, that was a typo. That should be $40-$50 MILLION.

That's what the cuts were, annually.


Vince

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


Chris,


 I'm not proclaiming oppossition to that.

Yet that is exactly what was stopped by the budget cuts.



  Federal flood control spending for Southeastern Louisiana has been
  chopped from $69 million in 2001 to $36.5 million in 2005, according
  to budget documents. Federal hurricane protection for the Lake
  Pontchartrain vicinity in the Army Corps of Engineers' budget
  dropped from $14.25 million in 2002 to $5.7 million this year.
  
  Both the New Orleans Times-Picayune newspaper and a local business
  magazine reported that the effects of the budget cuts at the Army
  Corps of Engineers were severe.
 
 As I noted, because the ACE submitted their budgets which were mostly
 gutted, they didn't plan on dispersement well

Look again. That was more than just cuts to the ACE. There were also cuts in 
(separate) flood control programs and cuts to a federal hurricane protection 
program for that area.


Vince

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

Right now there are over 18,000 national guard and military on hand.  USMS
services have been there since before the storm, last Thursday, with several
thousand men, and they have worked around the clock.. and I mean, around the
clock.

We can talk ill of political ends, but let's not say that none of the people
who are there now are actually doing anything.  

Right now, relief in the form of a congressional relief act is on stall
(Congress may come back from vacation for an emergency session) which is
just.

As of this morning, another 10,000 National Guard, and the movement of GVS
Navy services came into play, which marks more then 36,000 people involved..
over 18,000 who are there -now-.  This is the single largest domestic troop
movement since the US Civil war (period).

The removal has been hindered a great deal; since the beginning, the focus
has been on immediate removal of the sick  infirmed to help lower disease
spread and give them a chance at survival, followed by everyone else.
People rushed busses and military convoy equipment to demand their entrance
in.. which is just not safe.. not for them, the healthy to be mixed with the
sick, and not for the vehicle to get a chance to get out.

Right now, even with 18,000 on the ground, and another 18,000 heading there,
you'd almost need a hundred thousand because there is a growing influx of
outsiders.. people who are going -there- instead of out who are looting,
etc. which creates other issues.

So, in other words, I'm just saying we can make cracks about the politics of
it, but let's not make cracks about all the rescue workers who are there..
because right now, they've been on the ground for days now, working their
asses off.

CW

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Analyst
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 3:28 PM
To: The Hardware List
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

On 1 Sep 2005 at 15:15, j m g wrote:

 You know what, we can go back and forth about why and who should have
 paid for what, state, local or federal funding. But this is a big,
 big, disaster, where is the federal response?

On vacation.


Vince

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

from the dailykos - 

Category 4 Hurricane Determined to Strike U.S. -- Cont. 
by Hunter



Thu Sep 1st, 2005 at 10:28:22 PDT
 George W.
Bush was once known as the C.E.O. President, a term his handlers
eagerly coined in order to convey that the country would from now on be
run like a business. That quickly evolved into the less flattering Enron President... then the War President... now it's looking like we can all finally settle on one. George W. Bush: the Disaster President.


I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees.

He honestly said that. If that brings up more than a passing twinge of
familiarity, being a more than remarkable restatement of Condi Rice's
now-famous assertion to the Senate panel -- then I suppose we shouldn't
be surprised.

But it does bring up something that we joke about often, but apparently
have never taken quite seriously enough: our President is an idiot. I
don't mean an average, run-of-the-mill idiot. I mean an idiot who
apparently, for the entire duration of his presidency, literally was
paying absolutely no attention to even the most life-threateningly
critical tasks of government.

The administration specifically cut the funds to fix these specific levees, in order to specifically
divert that Corps money to Iraq, despite urgent warnings and
predictions of catastrophic disaster if the levees were breeched. The
administration specifically cancelled the Clinton-backed flood
control program to preserve and restore the wetlands between New
Orleans and the gulf, instead specifically opening parts of that buffer zone for development.

Nobody anticipated this disaster? It was identified by FEMA as one of the top three likeliest major disasters to strike America. (That link, one of countless stories, was from 2001, by the way.) It has been a major disaster scenario for 
years. Everybody
anticipated it, which makes this single statement by George W. Bush
possibly the most dishonest, lying, craptacularly false thing he has
ever said in his presidency -- even surpassing his now-infamous State
of the Union Address. Truly, this is President Bush's blue-dress moment.

And yet, funneling the money into Iraq was more important. You better
bet your crapulent, lying, one-track, drink-addled ass that's a
political issue.

He also said today:


I hope people don't play politics at this time of a natural disaster the likes of which this country has never seen.

Oh, I'm touched. Utterly touched. After 9/11, the entire Republican
Party went en masse to get Twin Towers ass tattoos. The Republican
convention was a wholesale tribute to crass exploitation, the sets
themselves designed to evoke the aftermath of the attack. Every
domestic and international policy this administration -- no, this
entire Republican government -- has produced
has been heaved up before the public while waving the spectre of 9/11
as the catch-all vindication of every administration whim. Every tax
cut, every civil rights issue, every budget cut, every budget
expansion, no matter how tortured the logic must be, has some
Republican senator standing on the Senate floor and proudly raping the
corpses of that day as justification for their particular agenda item.

Oh, we've seen politicization of disaster. Every Republican campaign for the last four years has revolved around the politicization of disaster.

But Lord help us, George W. Bush is going to get the vapors if anyone
asks him to explain his administration's active cuts of the very
programs designed to keep New Orleans safe.On 9/1/05, Eli Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
According to Drudge, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has recentlyenjoyed a little Broadway entertainment. And Page Six reports that she'salso working on her backhand with Monica Seles. So the Gulf Coast has gone
all Mad Max, women are being raped in the Superdome, and Rice is enjoying abrief vacation in New York. We wish we were surprised.What does surprise us: Just moments ago at the Ferragamo on 5th Avenue,Condoleeza Rice was seen spending several thousands of dollars on some nice,
new shoes (we've confirmed this, so her new heels will surely get coveragefrom the WaPo's Robin Givhan). A fellow shopper, unable to fathom theabsurdity of Rice's timing, went up to the Secretary and reportedly shouted,
How dare you shop for shoes while thousands are dying and homeless! Neverone to have her fashion choices questioned, Rice had security PHYSICALLYREMOVE the woman.
http://www.gawker.com/news/condoleezza-rice/index.php#breaking-condi-rice-spends-salary-on-shoes-123467- Original Message -From: j m gTo: The Hardware ListSent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - KatrinaYou know what, we can go back and forth about why and who should have paidfor what, state, local or federal funding.But this is a big, big,disaster, where is the federal response?
check out cnn.com-- -jmgChaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-09-01 Thread Hayes Elkins

What does the Secretary of State have anything to do with disaster relief? 
Should she go to Paris and beg for aid? Even though Rice *IS* an incompetent 
ass, those stories are a cheap shot.


Not surprised that a closet poofter like drudge pays more attention to shoe 
shopping habits rather than the duties of the top position of the state 
dept.




From: Eli Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:01:10 -0400

According to Drudge, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has recently 
enjoyed a little Broadway entertainment. And Page Six reports that she's 
also working on her backhand with Monica Seles. So the Gulf Coast has gone 
all Mad Max, women are being raped in the Superdome, and Rice is enjoying a 
brief vacation in New York. We wish we were surprised.


What does surprise us: Just moments ago at the Ferragamo on 5th Avenue, 
Condoleeza Rice was seen spending several thousands of dollars on some 
nice, new shoes (we've confirmed this, so her new heels will surely get 
coverage from the WaPo's Robin Givhan). A fellow shopper, unable to fathom 
the absurdity of Rice's timing, went up to the Secretary and reportedly 
shouted, How dare you shop for shoes while thousands are dying and 
homeless! Never one to have her fashion choices questioned, Rice had 
security PHYSICALLY REMOVE the woman.


http://www.gawker.com/news/condoleezza-rice/index.php#breaking-condi-rice-spends-salary-on-shoes-123467


- Original Message - From: j m g
To: The Hardware List
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


You know what, we can go back and forth about why and who should have paid 
for what, state, local or federal funding.  But this is a big, big, 
disaster, where is the federal response?


check out cnn.com

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-09-01 Thread Eli Allen

Um, she shouldn't be on vacation playing around in NYC, she should be doing 
something to help with the disaster.  She is a cabinet level official, not 
just anyone.


Eli

- Original Message - 

On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Eli Allen wrote:

from the WaPo's Robin Givhan). A fellow shopper, unable to fathom the 
absurdity of Rice's timing, went up to the Secretary and reportedly 
shouted, How dare you shop for shoes while thousands are dying and 
homeless! Never one to have her fashion choices questioned, Rice had 
security PHYSICALLY REMOVE the woman.


I played online poker last night.  How dare I gamble while thousands are 
dying and homeless!


WTF Was the shopper there shopping for if she's gonna get upset if she 
sees someone else shopping.  Damn hypcrites.



Christopher Fisk
--
Peter Griffin: You know, some people think that dandelions are weeds. But 
you know...uh... I always think, who the hell decided tulips were so 
great?

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Eli Allen wrote:

from the WaPo's Robin Givhan). A fellow shopper, unable to fathom the 
absurdity of Rice's timing, went up to the Secretary and reportedly shouted, 
How dare you shop for shoes while thousands are dying and homeless! Never 
one to have her fashion choices questioned, Rice had security PHYSICALLY 
REMOVE the woman.


I played online poker last night.  How dare I gamble while thousands are 
dying and homeless!


WTF Was the shopper there shopping for if she's gonna get upset if she 
sees someone else shopping.  Damn hypcrites.



Christopher Fisk
--
Peter Griffin: You know, some people think that dandelions are weeds. But you 
know...uh... I always think, who the hell decided tulips were so great?

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


Yep, it's a bottomless pit.
Bush was smart not throwing good money after bad.

Gary VanderMolen


- Original Message - 


Here's what was happening: as we kept restructuring the levees, they kept gaining more heft.. and they sunk faster and faster. 
From 1995-2001, we spent more then $240M.  And I agree that cutting the budget on this item, in retrospect, could have been 
reviewed.  But let's see what we got.. we spent the most money imaginable after 1995, and the levees sunk -quicker- in that 6 
year period then over the 20 years preceeding.  Shouldn't that have told us something?  It should have told us one of two 
things: either this whole thing was idiotic and we should just abandon the city and realize that while it was great military 
positioning for the French in 1712, it's stupidity now; or we should have realized that this would be a continuous spending 
spree to hold a little dutch boy's finger in the dyke.

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

The issue is that the repair, maintenance, and beefing-up of the levees, the very levees that broke through, was STOPPED in 
2004, for the first time in 37 years, because of the

Bushies massive budget cuts.


How can you beef-up something when the very act of beefing-up
will cause it to sink faster? Ever heard of quicksand?

Gary VanderMolen

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


The removal has been hindered a great deal; since the beginning, the focus
has been on immediate removal of the sick  infirmed to help lower disease
spread and give them a chance at survival, followed by everyone else.
People rushed busses and military convoy equipment to demand their entrance
in.. which is just not safe.. not for them, the healthy to be mixed with the
sick, and not for the vehicle to get a chance to get out.


Evacuation helicopters are getting shot at, because the locals all want
to be first to get evacuated, to hell with the sick and infirm.

Gary VanderMolen

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


So just because people in NO have it bad, everyone else is
supposed to be in sack cloth and ashes?
Ms Rice's job is to deal with foreign dignitaries, not to provide
aid relief.

Gary VanderMolen


- Original Message - 
According to Drudge, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has recently 
enjoyed a little Broadway entertainment. And Page Six reports that she's 
also working on her backhand with Monica Seles. So the Gulf Coast has gone 
all Mad Max, women are being raped in the Superdome, and Rice is enjoying a 
brief vacation in New York. We wish we were surprised.


What does surprise us: Just moments ago at the Ferragamo on 5th Avenue, 
Condoleeza Rice was seen spending several thousands of dollars on some nice, 
new shoes (we've confirmed this, so her new heels will surely get coverage 
from the WaPo's Robin Givhan). A fellow shopper, unable to fathom the 
absurdity of Rice's timing, went up to the Secretary and reportedly shouted, 
How dare you shop for shoes while thousands are dying and homeless! Never 
one to have her fashion choices questioned, Rice had security PHYSICALLY 
REMOVE the woman.

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


Chris,


 Vince, I really don't think we are arguing bitterly with each other

Gee, I would hope not.



 and I think we have a lot of grounds of agreement.  I want to state
 that right off.

OK.



 The concept of coming up with $50M/yearly, as you point out, fails to
 put into perspective that the number will go up, considerably, with
 inflation and difficulty.  The more weight applied to the levees, the
 less stable, level and manageable they are.. the heavier the levee is,
 the faster it sinks as the soil doesn't have enough base rock value..
 this is something that everyone knows, it's something that nature
 cannot deny.. the more tributaries bring in water and the undercurrent
 (like the Mississippi) the more you get a shift.
 
 Other issues also play into it which make it more difficult as well...
 anyway, I will agree with you that $50M a year is not only every year,
 but it is a figure that will go up drastically every year, even with
 the best upkeep imaginable because of the nature of the problem.

Keep in mind that the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers requested $27 million for 
this fiscal year (2005) to pay for hurricane-protection projects around Lake 
Pontchartrain. The Bush 
administration countered with $3.9 million, and the Republican controlled 
Congress eventually provided $5.7 million.

Michael Parker, a former Republican Mississippi congressman who headed the U.S. 
Army Corps of Engineers from October 2001 until March 2002, told the 'Chicago 
Tribune' 
today:

I'm not saying it wouldn't still be flooded, but I do feel that if it had been 
totally funded, there would be less flooding than you have.



 So, I tend to go along with a very unpopular recommendation.. in 1993,
 it was proposed that we consider moving the city, basically, by
 slowly planning for it to go away by just the design of nature.  Even
 several environmental groups lobbied that the demolition of the levees
 would create a giant boom in natural wildlife and restore the original
 marshlands much closer to their intended state.
 
 I have no problem with that.  Move people to more solid ground, make
 where New Orleans a nice, gigantic national wildlife preserve, and you
 save all the money.. and you do something nice for mother nature.. and
 you immediately increase a big area of wetlands which provide for a
 nice buffer later when you need it ;)

I think that argument has gained some additional weight given what has happened.


Vince

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

BTW, the last thing I want to note because now apparently a few politicos
have said this and been hammered.

I get people who say things like what about the great Chicago fire and LA
is on a fault line 

I get that.  But, the reality is, those situations are not pressing in a
continuous manner to cause year after year of restructure to just do
something to nature that wasn't ever intended to happen.  New Orleans was
built, from the beginning, in a marsh.  It was built as good military and
shipping land, and it made sense.  And I understand for tons of people it is
there home, and by god, it's the American way to fix it and make it work.

But in the long term, reasonable science is against them.  No matter what
plan we put into effect, the lake pressure will increase, and the continued
growth projects do more to imperil the city then improve it as far as
ecology goes.

I think anyone who says this aloud will be taken to task and beaten up for
it.  Which is too bad.  Real critical thought and evaluation sometimes gets
pummeled when we don't like it.

CW  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Analyst
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 5:14 PM
To: The Hardware List
Subject: RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


 I have no problem with that.  Move people to more solid ground, make
 where New Orleans a nice, gigantic national wildlife preserve, and you
 save all the money.. and you do something nice for mother nature.. and
 you immediately increase a big area of wetlands which provide for a
 nice buffer later when you need it ;)

I think that argument has gained some additional weight given what has
happened.


Vince

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-09-01 Thread Brian Weeden

Ok this is starting to piss me off.  Can I get an admin ruling on when
to take this thread off the list and to private?  Another few days and
I will be tempted to just unsubscribe.

-- 
Brian

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-09-01 Thread Brian Weeden

On 9/1/05, Al [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Al
 
 If this is the worst that ever happens to you, you will have it made.
 

Well I didn't mean it that way.  It's just I see this crap of blaming
Bush or Clinton or Osama from every other media source 24/7 and all
kinds of speculation about what could have been done to stop it and I
was wondering if at some point this could become a hardware list in
the next couple days :)

-- 
Brian

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


Ok this is starting to piss me off.  Can I get an admin ruling on when
to take this thread off the list and to private?  Another few days and
I will be tempted to just unsubscribe.


Back away from the coffee.   :)


And set your email client to ignore/delete this thread automatically.

Gary VanderMolen

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

What would Glass do?On 9/1/05, Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Ok this is starting to piss me off.Can I get an admin ruling on when to take this thread off the list and to private?Another few days and I will be tempted to just unsubscribe.
 Back away from the coffee. :)And set your email client to ignore/delete this thread automatically.Gary VanderMolen-- -jmgChaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

-M- RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

Brian, you are of course, correct.  The normal list rule has been to allow a
thread to run no more then three days.  However, even after 1 day, we're
generating way to much traffic, and too much of it still HTML format, which
doesn't make many people happy.

So, why don't we say, after 12 AM PST tonight, the thread ends.

CW

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Weeden
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 6:17 PM
To: The Hardware List
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

On 9/1/05, Al [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Al
 
 If this is the worst that ever happens to you, you will have it made.
 

Well I didn't mean it that way.  It's just I see this crap of blaming
Bush or Clinton or Osama from every other media source 24/7 and all
kinds of speculation about what could have been done to stop it and I
was wondering if at some point this could become a hardware list in
the next couple days :)

-- 
Brian

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-09-01 Thread jeff.lane

From: Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

So it's your position that finishing the repairs on the the levees,  the 
pre-positioning of many pumping ships and hospital ships, let alone the 
organization of a coordinated air lift,

would not have made any substantial difference in the outcome ?

Vince

Vince,

In keeping with your thought of pre-positioning ship, my question would be 
just where in the hell would you pre-position those ships with a wiggling 
cat 5 hurricane, 250 mile diameter(conservatively), headed somewhere in the 
direction of NO. But please throw into the mix the fact that the storm could 
have turned north, at any time, toward the Florida Panhandle.

I have been reading this thread from the beginning and, for one, am tired of 
hearing the garbage and agenda you are peddling. We have people dying down 
there(maybe into the tens of thousands after all is said and done). I can 
hear enough crap and political innuendos on CNN(THE Communist News Network) 
network. I wonder how much comfort the folks on roofs would take from your 
statements. I hope someone save this kind of stuff so the survivors can see 
how some of these people supported them. Thank God there were few of these 
types around after Pearl Harbor or we would be flying Swastikas and 
meatballs on our flag poles...and you think we have troubles 
now..but that's probably before your time.

Of course, on the other hand, some of my friends and relatives, died so you 
can shoot your mouth off. You are doing a good job at that.

If I have offended anyone unnecessarily, I sincerely apologize and will 
leave the list if required.

Thanks for listening.

Jeff

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


I was done with this thread, but since this was sent directly at me...


On 1 Sep 2005 at 17:40, jeff.lane wrote:

 Vince,
 
 In keeping with your thought of pre-positioning ship

It wasn't my thought. It was part of a plan that FEMA had laid out under the 
previous administration, part of 'Project Impact', which this administration 
killed.



 my question would be just where in the hell would you pre-position
 those ships with a wiggling cat 5 hurricane, 250 mile
 diameter(conservatively), headed somewhere in the direction of NO. 

Well, since the intention of the ships with the massive pumping stations was to 
pump the water out from behind the levees surrounding New Orleans, if it was 
hit, then quite 
obviously they would be pre-positioned right off the coast of New Orleans, eh ?



 But please throw into the mix the fact that the storm could have turned
 north, at any time, toward the Florida Panhandle. 

Then they would not have been needed, would they ?



 I have been reading this thread from the beginning and, for one, am
 tired of hearing the garbage and agenda you are peddling.

Just the facts.

If you can't handle the truth, don't read my posts.



 We have people dying down there(maybe into the tens of thousands after
 all is said and done). I can hear enough crap and political innuendos
 on CNN(THE Communist News Network) network. 

And just who is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to watch CNN ?



 I wonder how much comfort the folks on roofs would take from your
 statements. 

How much comfort are the Bushies providing, three days late ?



 I hope someone save this kind of stuff so the survivors can see how
 some of these people supported them. Thank God there were few of these
 types around after Pearl Harbor or we would be flying Swastikas and
 meatballs on our flag poles...and you think we have
 troubles now..but that's probably before your time. 

Non sequitur ?



 Of course, on the other hand, some of my friends and relatives, died
 so you can shoot your mouth off. You are doing a good job at that.

Thanks.


Vince

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-09-01 Thread Wayne Johnson


At 04:07 PM 9/1/2005, Christopher Fisk typed:
I played online poker last night.  How dare I gamble while thousands are 
dying and homeless!


I suppose BC was playing with interns. The reason we don't have an energy 
policy is because Monica was playing with his cigar.


I've got an idea, why don't we wait until we need things before we start 
planning for them.


In any case it's too late now so lets help pickup the pieces.

--+--
   Wayne D. Johnson
Ashland, OH, USA 44805
http://www.wavijo.com

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-09-01 Thread gibney


  For what it's worth, they actually have plans for when Mt. Rainer blows.
Won't do a lot of good and will make Katrina look mellow. But at least, if
St Helens is a guide, we'll have several months warning.
  There won't be any warning when the big one quakes in the Pacific off
Washington. Geologic evidence puts that one above 9 or 10 Richter. Coast
line dropped 20 feet.

Dave Gibney
Pullman, WA 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardware-
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CW
 Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 11:22 AM
 To: The Hardware List
 Subject: RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina
 
 
 
 In 1980, there were big complaints about how USGS funding went down in 78
  79 before Mt. St. Helens erupted.  Well, I know it's cruel, but if you
 built your house on a Volcano and thought the government could save you,
 you were a fool.  People in Pompei learned that one

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

Ah, republican penis envy. BC had a Rep congress the whole time
and new we've got a Rep pres and congress. If stuff is broken
now, guess what - it is their fault.On 9/1/05, Wayne Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 04:07 PM 9/1/2005, Christopher Fisk typed:I played online poker last night.How dare I gamble while thousands aredying and homeless!I suppose BC was playing with interns. The reason we don't have an energy
policy is because Monica was playing with his cigar.I've got an idea, why don't we wait until we need things before we startplanning for them.In any case it's too late now so lets help pickup the pieces.
--+--Wayne D. JohnsonAshland, OH, USA 44805http://www.wavijo.com-- -jmgChaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit.
Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918]

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-09-01 Thread jeff.lane




From Fox News. 8:02PM PDT.

SENATE APPROVES $10.5 BILLION IN AID FOR HURRICANE KATRINA VICTIMS; HOUSE 
CONVENES AT NOON TO SPEED BILL TO BUSH FOR APPROVAL

Looks like they are not on vacation after 
all.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  j m g 
  To: The Hardware List 
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 8:08 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - 
  Katrina
  Ah, republican penis envy. BC had a Rep congress the 
  whole time and new we've got a Rep pres and congress. If stuff is broken 
  now, guess what - it is their fault.
  On 9/1/05, Wayne 
  Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  At 
04:07 PM 9/1/2005, Christopher Fisk typed:I played online poker last 
night.How dare I gamble while thousands aredying and 
homeless!"I suppose BC was playing with interns. The reason we don't 
have an energy policy is because Monica was playing with his 
cigar.I've got an idea, why don't we wait until we need things 
before we startplanning for them.In any case it's too late now 
so lets help pickup the pieces. 
--+--Wayne D. 
JohnsonAshland, OH, USA 44805http://www.wavijo.com-- -jmgChaos often breeds life, when order breeds 
  habit. Henry Brooks Adams [1838-1918] 
  
  

  No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG 
  Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/88 - Release Date: 
  9/1/2005

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-09-01 Thread Wayne Johnson


At 11:08 PM 9/1/2005, j m g typed:
Ah, republican penis envy.  BC had a Rep congress the whole time and new 
we've got a Rep pres and congress.  If stuff is broken now, guess what - 
it is their fault.


I'm sure that the Dems didn't filibuster anything that was worth doing 
either? If it were up to the Reps then we would've had higher gas prices 
long before now that would've paid for more refineries  etc. It's the Dems 
that do all the loud mouth crying the minute something doesn't go their 
way. We can have construction of this or that because of the environment or 
it's too much money yet when we don't have the product that the 
construction would've provide they cry where is it. They can't have it both 
ways yet they do it all the time.



--+--
   Wayne D. Johnson
Ashland, OH, USA 44805
http://www.wavijo.com

[H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread Jim Edwards

We have a situation where we are going to have American refuges. The people 
of the Gulf needs help, lots and lots of help. If you haven't yet, consider 
donating to the Red Cross. I don't usually (because of $$ excuses) but 
damn, my countrymen are in a world of hurt in gumbo land. But I can't sit 
back and just let Americans die right here, right now while I sit in AC 
eating pizza in comfort.


If you got the impression that things where not that bad Monday and you 
haven't turned on the news lately, New Orleans is a doomed city. The levees 
broke and the city WILL drown. We have survivors walking out with nothing 
but what is on their backs not knowing where to go, what to do, no shelter, 
food, water, money, nothing. We are going to have refuge camps down there 
for a while. DO WHAT YOU CAN ASAP.


Dear James,

Thank you for your generous gift to the American Red Cross 2005 Hurricane 
Relief Fund.  This fund makes it possible for the Red Cross to help 
nationwide Hurricane disaster victims of 2005 with critical needs such as 
shelter, food, clothing, counseling and other assistance. It's because of 
the 2005 Hurricane Relief Fund that our response can be immediate 
regardless of its location or the community's ability to financially 
support our efforts.


Your generous support means the most to the families who rely on Red Cross 
to help them through some of the most difficult times of their lives.


Please continue to visit us at http://www.RedCross.org to see how we're 
using your 2005 Hurricane Relief Fund donation to make a difference, and 
for the most current disaster updates and stories about the people being 
helped.


Together, we can save a life.


American Red Cross



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 - Release Date: 8/30/2005

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread Mike

I did the same last night.
We live just south of Lafayette, so we watched Katrina very closely,
prepared to leave if it came this way.  These things are horrible to sit
through.  Lili came through 3 years ago but weakened just before landfall,
but the damage in this area was extensive, although nothing of this
magnitude.  My sister and her husband left NO before it hit.  I doubt they
have anything left to go back to.

Mike

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jim Edwards
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:23 AM
To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


We have a situation where we are going to have American refuges. The people
of the Gulf needs help, lots and lots of help. If you haven't yet, consider
donating to the Red Cross. I don't usually (because of $$ excuses) but
damn, my countrymen are in a world of hurt in gumbo land. But I can't sit
back and just let Americans die right here, right now while I sit in AC
eating pizza in comfort.

If you got the impression that things where not that bad Monday and you
haven't turned on the news lately, New Orleans is a doomed city. The levees
broke and the city WILL drown. We have survivors walking out with nothing
but what is on their backs not knowing where to go, what to do, no shelter,
food, water, money, nothing. We are going to have refuge camps down there
for a while. DO WHAT YOU CAN ASAP.

 Dear James,

Thank you for your generous gift to the American Red Cross 2005 Hurricane
Relief Fund.  This fund makes it possible for the Red Cross to help
nationwide Hurricane disaster victims of 2005 with critical needs such as
shelter, food, clothing, counseling and other assistance. It's because of
the 2005 Hurricane Relief Fund that our response can be immediate
regardless of its location or the community's ability to financially
support our efforts.

Your generous support means the most to the families who rely on Red Cross
to help them through some of the most difficult times of their lives.

Please continue to visit us at http://www.RedCross.org to see how we're
using your 2005 Hurricane Relief Fund donation to make a difference, and
for the most current disaster updates and stories about the people being
helped.

Together, we can save a life.


American Red Cross



--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 - Release Date: 8/30/2005



__ NOD32 1.1205 (20050830) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread Henrik Tived

My heart goes out to you, who are affected by Katrina. We saw what the 
tsunami did to our neighbouring country last Xmas.


Henrik
A Dane Down Under

- Original Message - 
From: Jim Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 6:22 PM
Subject: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


We have a situation where we are going to have American refuges. The 
people of the Gulf needs help, lots and lots of help. If you haven't yet, 
consider donating to the Red Cross. I don't usually (because of $$ 
excuses) but damn, my countrymen are in a world of hurt in gumbo land. But 
I can't sit back and just let Americans die right here, right now while I 
sit in AC eating pizza in comfort.


If you got the impression that things where not that bad Monday and you 
haven't turned on the news lately, New Orleans is a doomed city. The 
levees broke and the city WILL drown. We have survivors walking out with 
nothing but what is on their backs not knowing where to go, what to do, no 
shelter, food, water, money, nothing. We are going to have refuge camps 
down there for a while. DO WHAT YOU CAN ASAP.


Dear James,

Thank you for your generous gift to the American Red Cross 2005 Hurricane 
Relief Fund.  This fund makes it possible for the Red Cross to help 
nationwide Hurricane disaster victims of 2005 with critical needs such as 
shelter, food, clothing, counseling and other assistance. It's because of 
the 2005 Hurricane Relief Fund that our response can be immediate 
regardless of its location or the community's ability to financially 
support our efforts.


Your generous support means the most to the families who rely on Red Cross 
to help them through some of the most difficult times of their lives.


Please continue to visit us at http://www.RedCross.org to see how we're 
using your 2005 Hurricane Relief Fund donation to make a difference, and 
for the most current disaster updates and stories about the people being 
helped.


Together, we can save a life.


American Red Cross



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 - Release Date: 8/30/2005

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread Ben Ruset

Not to sound heartless, but people are not going to be totally reliant 
on donations to get by. There will be a ton of federal aid, insurance 
money, etc. going to these people.


There will be no refugee camps. People will be relocated to other 
cities. We don't live in a 3rd world country, and have plenty of room 
for the displaced all over the country.


Jim Edwards wrote:
We have a situation where we are going to have American refuges. The 
people of the Gulf needs help, lots and lots of help. If you haven't 
yet, consider donating to the Red Cross. I don't usually (because of $$ 
excuses) but damn, my countrymen are in a world of hurt in gumbo land. 
But I can't sit back and just let Americans die right here, right now 
while I sit in AC eating pizza in comfort.


If you got the impression that things where not that bad Monday and you 
haven't turned on the news lately, New Orleans is a doomed city. The 
levees broke and the city WILL drown. We have survivors walking out with 
nothing but what is on their backs not knowing where to go, what to do, 
no shelter, food, water, money, nothing. We are going to have refuge 
camps down there for a while. DO WHAT YOU CAN ASAP.

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread Chris Reeves

Last Thursday, my oldest brother was relocated and put in charge of several
thousand national guard to help handle the operation.  The reality is, this
will get worse before it gets better.. much, much worse.  And the problem
is, there is so much poverty in New Orleans, and the structural design of
the city is still a mess.. it's going to be a very messy and difficult work
through.

CW

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Ruset
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 3:08 PM
To: The Hardware List
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

Not to sound heartless, but people are not going to be totally reliant 
on donations to get by. There will be a ton of federal aid, insurance 
money, etc. going to these people.

There will be no refugee camps. People will be relocated to other 
cities. We don't live in a 3rd world country, and have plenty of room 
for the displaced all over the country.

Jim Edwards wrote:
 We have a situation where we are going to have American refuges. The 
 people of the Gulf needs help, lots and lots of help. If you haven't 
 yet, consider donating to the Red Cross. I don't usually (because of $$ 
 excuses) but damn, my countrymen are in a world of hurt in gumbo land. 
 But I can't sit back and just let Americans die right here, right now 
 while I sit in AC eating pizza in comfort.
 
 If you got the impression that things where not that bad Monday and you 
 haven't turned on the news lately, New Orleans is a doomed city. The 
 levees broke and the city WILL drown. We have survivors walking out with 
 nothing but what is on their backs not knowing where to go, what to do, 
 no shelter, food, water, money, nothing. We are going to have refuge 
 camps down there for a while. DO WHAT YOU CAN ASAP.

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


Chris Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 And the problem
 is, there is so much poverty in New Orleans, and the structural design of
 the city is still a mess.. it's going to be a very messy and difficult work
 through.

 President Bush says that now that the catastrophe has hit, government
should swing into action and help people.  I say, governments job was
to prevent catastrophes like Katrina, and to be prepared.  Its so
American, wanting to be the hero and rescue survivors rather than the
engineer to prevent the need.   

 The municipal government is inept and had no ability to move people out
of the city after it ordered a mandatory evacuation.  There is only one
road out of the city today.  Worse, it is a cess pit of corpses,
household and industrial toxins, water snakes, floating balls of red
ants, and alligators.  There is no organized way to get people out and
no way to feed those trapped there.

But the media is dwelling on looting.

 We've been aware of New Orleans inevitable horror for decades, and
absolutely nothing sufficient was done about it.  The levees, now broken
and filling the city, were supposedly designed to protect against a
Category Three hurricane, yet Katrina was only a Two when it hit.  Its
a major port, crucial to the nation.  Shouldnt everything have been
better and higher? 

 Listening to Haley Barbour, the Governor of Mississippi, and Mayor Ray
Nagin of New Orleans yesterday, I have the feeling that Southern
corruption and conservative hatred of taxes has taken a hit.  There
seems to be no means to find out how many people are dead or missing
without counting bodies, even in general terms.  This, after an event
long predicted.

 The Gulf Coast just had a long predicted catastrophe for which evidence
shows no realistic preparations had been made despite previous
hurricanes and floods.  But the looters are black, so lets focus on
that moral breakdown of American society and not on the hugely corrupt
and incompetent governments along the Gulf coast for a half century.

 Its so American.  Dont teach birth control, fight abortion.  Dont
prepare for mathematical certainty, worship the melodrama of numerically
insufficient rescues.

http://www.darkendeavors.com/commentaries/2005/08-31-2005.asp

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread Gary VanderMolen


It's so American.  Don't teach birth control, fight abortion.  Don't
prepare for mathematical certainty, worship the melodrama of numerically
insufficient rescues.


The only certainty is that Mother Nature is unpredictable. How much
money should we throw at this bottomless pit? If you design levees 
for a Cat 3, next time it will be a Cat 4 hurricane. People should not 
live below sea level when they are so close to massive bodies of water.



Gary VanderMolen

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 The only certainty is that Mother Nature is unpredictable. How much
 money should we throw at this bottomless pit? If you design levees 
 for a Cat 3, next time it will be a Cat 4 hurricane. People should not 
 live below sea level when they are so close to massive bodies of water.

And where is this place of no earthquakes, tornados, floods, etc or some
form of natural disaster?

The cost of being unprepared in such a critical area for our nation, is
many times what it would have cost to be better prepared.

We seem to be so short sited. Pay a dollar later to save a dime now. 

I'm watching the city of Boulder repaint crosswalks. They are only doing
it where it is completely worn off. I see where they paint for 2 feet,
leave 10 inches, and paint again for another three feet. The 10 inch
section in only half worn out.  What is the cost of getting the truck
and crew back there to paint that 10 inches next year, verses painting
it now?

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread Eli Allen

While I do agree that living below sea level like that is a bad idea this 
was preventable.  There was a major levee construction project whose funding 
was cut by Bush (~$250 million)  If Bush didn't cut the funding the levees 
wouldn't have broke so easily like they did.


http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313

Eli

- Original Message - 
From: Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina



It's so American.  Don't teach birth control, fight abortion.  Don't
prepare for mathematical certainty, worship the melodrama of numerically
insufficient rescues.


The only certainty is that Mother Nature is unpredictable. How much
money should we throw at this bottomless pit? If you design levees for a 
Cat 3, next time it will be a Cat 4 hurricane. People should not live 
below sea level when they are so close to massive bodies of water.



Gary VanderMolen

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread Brian Weeden

On 8/31/05, Eli Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
While I do agree that living below sea level like that is a bad idea this
was preventable. There was a major levee construction project whose funding
was cut by Bush (~$250 million) If Bush didn't cut the funding the levees
wouldn't have broke so easily like they did.

Ah great. Took all of about 10 seconds for people to start blaming
Bush. While we are at it lets blame him for the residents of LA being
poor and uneducated in the first place - it's all a racist plot by
those awful Republicans.

Give me a freaking break. I am sure that with a bit of digging I can
find just as many Democratic governors, Congressmen, and Presidents
who also cut funding. Don't forget that the Corps of Engineers has
been embroiled in several major scandals over the past few years over
their use of funds.
http://www.taxpayer.net/corpswatch/LearnMore/scandals.htm is one
example I quickly Googled.

What about this report, released in Nov of last year -
http://www.colorado.edu/hazards/o/nov04/nov04c.html

It looks pretty darn accurate to me. Now why shouldn't we blame
everyone who didn't pay attention to this? I bet we can find a few
hundred people who fit that bill.

Can you guarantee that the money the evil man Bush cut from the budget
would have been used and the magical new levee would have been built
before this storm hits? When was this new system supposed to have
been completed by? Would it have worked?

What about placing the blame on the city forcing the Mississippi to
flow into one river channel? This did two things - it prevents the
silt flow from building the delta which protects the city from the
ocean. It also left NO in a sinking hole where every drop of water
which falls on it needs to be pumped out.

In fact, let's blame the Corps of Engineers who built the system of
levees to prevent the river from changing course and caused NO to
become a sinkhole:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0374522596/qid=1125457675/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-2930600-5361507?v=glances=booksn=507846

Leave you damn politics out of this. Everyone and no one is to blame
for this tragedy.

--
Brian

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread CW

It should be noted, though, that there were slightly over $38B worth of Army 
Corp. Engineer projects for upstream alleviation, spilloff grounds, and levee 
design that were openly opposed since 1997 by the National Wildlife Fund, PETA, 
River Conservation Forum, and the World Wildlife Fund (on the left) and the 
National Taxpayers Union, Taxpayers America, and WasteRot organizaitons on the 
right.  Since 1997, every proposal that the Army Corp of engineers has put up 
for levee redesign has been bitterly opposed by heavy lobbying groups on both 
sides of the isle, to the extent where the feasibility of moving forward with 
them was nil.

I think I've said this, but my oldest brother has worked for the Pentagon for 
almost 4 years now, before then with the USMS, and so on.. and these projects 
were so bitterly opposed that I don't know what people expected.  There were 
tons of people on both sides who lobbied in committee to get the cuts put into 
place.. and still, for many, the cuts were nowhere near enough.

I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying, let's not pretend that Bush (or 
anyone) operated in a vaccuum; the pressures against the Army Corp of Engineers 
were severe.  I'll have a longer post later; I'll talk to him later tonight and 
see how things go ;)

CW

-Original message-
From: Eli Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:52:58 -0500
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

 While I do agree that living below sea level like that is a bad idea this 
 was preventable.  There was a major levee construction project whose funding 
 was cut by Bush (~$250 million)  If Bush didn't cut the funding the levees 
 wouldn't have broke so easily like they did.
 
 http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313
 
 Eli
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
 Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:32 PM
 Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina
 
 
  It's so American.  Don't teach birth control, fight abortion.  Don't
  prepare for mathematical certainty, worship the melodrama of numerically
  insufficient rescues.
 
  The only certainty is that Mother Nature is unpredictable. How much
  money should we throw at this bottomless pit? If you design levees for a 
  Cat 3, next time it will be a Cat 4 hurricane. People should not live 
  below sea level when they are so close to massive bodies of water.
 
 
  Gary VanderMolen

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread Mike

The Red Cross is for front line help, getting food and water out there now.
The logistics of relocation will take time.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ben Ruset
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 3:08 PM
To: The Hardware List
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

Not to sound heartless, but people are not going to be totally reliant
on donations to get by. There will be a ton of federal aid, insurance
money, etc. going to these people.

There will be no refugee camps. People will be relocated to other
cities. We don't live in a 3rd world country, and have plenty of room
for the displaced all over the country.

Jim Edwards wrote:
 We have a situation where we are going to have American refuges. The
 people of the Gulf needs help, lots and lots of help. If you haven't
 yet, consider donating to the Red Cross. I don't usually (because of $$
 excuses) but damn, my countrymen are in a world of hurt in gumbo land.
 But I can't sit back and just let Americans die right here, right now
 while I sit in AC eating pizza in comfort.

 If you got the impression that things where not that bad Monday and you
 haven't turned on the news lately, New Orleans is a doomed city. The
 levees broke and the city WILL drown. We have survivors walking out with
 nothing but what is on their backs not knowing where to go, what to do,
 no shelter, food, water, money, nothing. We are going to have refuge
 camps down there for a while. DO WHAT YOU CAN ASAP.

__ NOD32 1.1207 (20050831) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

RE: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread Myrna Rademacher

I think we should forget the politics and do as Jim did -- give what we can
to the Red Cross or other aid societies to help those so devastated by
Katrina.  Trying to place blame for such a disaster certainly doesn't help
the victims of this horrible natural event.

Myrna J. Rademacher, MCSE, MCSA, MCP
Systems Administrator
Humes  Barrington, P.C.
St. Louis, MO USA 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CW
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:30 PM
To: The Hardware List
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

It should be noted, though, that there were slightly over $38B worth of Army
Corp. Engineer projects for upstream alleviation, spilloff grounds, and
levee design that were openly opposed since 1997 by the National Wildlife
Fund, PETA, River Conservation Forum, and the World Wildlife Fund (on the
left) and the National Taxpayers Union, Taxpayers America, and WasteRot
organizaitons on the right.  Since 1997, every proposal that the Army Corp
of engineers has put up for levee redesign has been bitterly opposed by
heavy lobbying groups on both sides of the isle, to the extent where the
feasibility of moving forward with them was nil.

I think I've said this, but my oldest brother has worked for the Pentagon
for almost 4 years now, before then with the USMS, and so on.. and these
projects were so bitterly opposed that I don't know what people expected.
There were tons of people on both sides who lobbied in committee to get the
cuts put into place.. and still, for many, the cuts were nowhere near
enough.

I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying, let's not pretend that Bush
(or anyone) operated in a vaccuum; the pressures against the Army Corp of
Engineers were severe.  I'll have a longer post later; I'll talk to him
later tonight and see how things go ;)

CW

-Original message-
From: Eli Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:52:58 -0500
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

 While I do agree that living below sea level like that is a bad idea 
 this was preventable.  There was a major levee construction project 
 whose funding was cut by Bush (~$250 million)  If Bush didn't cut the 
 funding the levees wouldn't have broke so easily like they did.
 
 http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_c
 ontent_id=1001051313
 
 Eli
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
 Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 5:32 PM
 Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina
 
 
  It's so American.  Don't teach birth control, fight abortion.  
  Don't prepare for mathematical certainty, worship the melodrama of 
  numerically insufficient rescues.
 
  The only certainty is that Mother Nature is unpredictable. How much 
  money should we throw at this bottomless pit? If you design levees 
  for a Cat 3, next time it will be a Cat 4 hurricane. People should 
  not live below sea level when they are so close to massive bodies of
water.
 
 
  Gary VanderMolen

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


Myrna Rademacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Trying to place blame for such a disaster certainly doesn't help
 the victims of this horrible natural event.

But then it's not supposed to. It's supposed to create an awareness of
our government spending 400 billion creating a war as a cover for
building military bases over there, instead of fixing the broken borders
and crumbling infrastructure over here.

We can do both, help the current victims and demand better prevention of
future victims.

Al

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread FORC5



that would be a good trick
At 02:15 PM 8/31/2005, Al Poked the stick with:
I say, governments job was
to prevent catastrophes like Katrina, 

-- 
Tallyho ! ]:8)
Taglines below !
--
Free men do not ask permission to bear arms

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina


FORC5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 that would be a good trick
 
 At 02:15 PM 8/31/2005, Al Poked the stick with:
 I say, governments job was
 to prevent catastrophes like Katrina, 

Not to prevent hurricanes, but to prevent the depth of the disaster
caused by it.

Al

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread Wayne Johnson


At 07:53 PM 8/31/2005, Al typed:

Not to prevent hurricanes, but to prevent the depth of the disaster
caused by it.


The casinos in MS were supposedly designed for level 5 hurricane  look 
what happened to them.



--+--
   Wayne D. Johnson
Ashland, OH, USA 44805
http://www.wavijo.com

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread jeff.lane

Very good, Brian. I, too, am getting very tired of these ranting agendas. We 
have a lot of people out there that are dying or will be if help does not 
get there. This include the morons that stayed for the parties, surfing, jet 
skiing, etc. Nonetheless they need help, not agendas.


Jeff


- Original Message - 
From: Brian Weeden [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina



On 8/31/05, Eli Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

While I do agree that living below sea level like that is a bad idea this
was preventable.  There was a major levee construction project whose 
funding
was cut by Bush (~$250 million)  If Bush didn't cut the funding the 
levees

wouldn't have broke so easily like they did.


Ah great.  Took all of about 10 seconds for people to start blaming
Bush.  While we are at it lets blame him for the residents of LA being
poor and uneducated in the first place - it's all a racist plot by
those awful Republicans.

Give me a freaking break.  I am sure that with a bit of digging I can
find just as many Democratic governors, Congressmen, and Presidents
who also cut funding.  Don't forget that the Corps of Engineers has
been embroiled in several major scandals over the past few years over
their use of funds.
http://www.taxpayer.net/corpswatch/LearnMore/scandals.htm is one
example I quickly Googled.

What about this report, released in Nov of last year -
http://www.colorado.edu/hazards/o/nov04/nov04c.html

It looks pretty darn accurate to me.  Now why shouldn't we blame
everyone who didn't pay attention to this?  I bet we can find a few
hundred people who fit that bill.

Can you guarantee that the money the evil man Bush cut from the budget
would have been used and the magical new levee would have been built
before this storm hits?  When was this new system supposed to have
been completed by?  Would it have worked?

What about placing the blame on the city forcing the Mississippi to
flow into one river channel?  This did two things - it prevents the
silt flow from building the delta which protects the city from the
ocean.  It also left NO in a sinking hole where every drop of water
which falls on it needs to be pumped out.

In fact, let's blame the Corps of Engineers who built the system of
levees to prevent the river from changing course and caused NO to
become a sinkhole:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0374522596/qid=1125457675/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-2930600-5361507?v=glances=booksn=507846

Leave you damn politics out of this.  Everyone and no one is to blame
for this tragedy.

--
Brian



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Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina

2005-08-31 Thread jeff.lane


Another good trick

- Original Message - 
From: Al [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina




FORC5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


that would be a good trick

At 02:15 PM 8/31/2005, Al Poked the stick with:
I say, government's job was
to prevent catastrophes like Katrina, 


Not to prevent hurricanes, but to prevent the depth of the disaster
caused by it.

Al




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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/86 - Release Date: 8/31/2005

Re: [H] It's bad, really bad - Katrina