Re: [hlds] shots registering
On 8/8/05, Clayton Macleod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sure I miss some stuff quite often, we're all human. And, well, from the description Alfred just gave for server fps and from reading the Source netcode description page and associating the two, generating packets to send to clients and the rate that packets get sent at seem to have absolutely nothing to do with server fps and everything to do with tickrate. **Alfred just said that server fps does not change the game simulation.** The server doesn't send packets out for each server 'frame', it sends packets out after each tick, containing the data calculated for that tick. Every tick is a seperate moment in time, a seperate state of the game, a gamestate. Got a default 33 tickrate server, you get 33 seperate gamestates per second, no more, (and CPU not being a hinderance) no less. You just stated that a 500fps server will give you 500 updates per second, when clearly this is not the case. No I didn't, I said it is capable of processing a piece of client data in 1/500 seconds, as opposed to 1/33 seconds (the fact that it rewinds by cl_interp+latency and processes that tick is irrelevant for this discussion). When you do the calculations of the timeline of processing of packets vs. gameworld progression (tick's passing) you will find that server side FPS has a major impact on PROCESSING LATENCY. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH CLIENT LATENCY. Interpolation is not important here, it is merely affected, and moreso when a server is running at a low FPS. The REASON is simple - at 33 fps the server takes - 1 whole tick to process a frame - next update will happen in a minimum of 1 tick's time (no sub-tick udpates (client re-play will occur for corrected ticks) and so on. Forget about the gameworld rate - this is about how fast the server processes data WHEN IT HAS ARRIVED to WHEN IT LEAVES (the server). On a server that is only managing to process one frame per tick (or marginally worse as is common when fps is so low (typicall a machine which can manage 30-35 fps will only run at 30-31, however I have neither the time nor inclanation to explain that one) will send responses 1 tick later than optimal as the next update after a processed command will be 2 ticks after it arrived. Arrive mid-tick - tick completes, next frame makes new tick AND processes client data (can it do both in one frame?), data into queue, next tick - send. I hope this is more clear. :-) I also don't know why you're talking about client-side rendering interpolation, that has nothing to do with the server fps we're talking about. I think the fact that it has been called server fps is a little confusing, since we measure our graphics performance by this same term, fps. But the two aren't nearly the same thing. Client-side interpolation only serves to smooth out your view between server ticks, it's got nothing to do with the server. If your computer can give you 66fps and you're playing on a 33 tickrate server then you get one interpolated frame for every 'real' frame. The server is still only generating 33 seperate gamestates. Client-side interpolation is part of the whole seperation of netcode and graphics. If your computer's beefy enough to render graphics at a much faster rate than the server is generating seperate gamestates, well, no reason it shouldn't give you as smooth an experience as possible. But it does so by making up its own data that has nothing to do with the server's data, other than the fact that it is using the server's seperate moments in time to form its guess at what goes inbetween the server's moments in time. The server still only deals with its own rate of simulation. If there is any benefit to the server being able to process input faster than it is simulating the gameworld, I'm not sure I see what that might be. If it only simulates the gameworld 33 times a second, why would it need to process player input at a rate any faster than that? As long as it is capable of processing that input fast enough to feed the next simulation step, you're golden. It's not a continuously changing world like our world is. It is a world based on completely seperate instances in time, coming at a fixed rate, but each one a representation of the world only at that instant. It is not a continuous, uninterrupted flow of time. Being able to process more input data than there are simulation steps shouldn't mean anything, since it is still only those simulation steps that make up the world. Client side interpolation is affected if the updaterate is too low or more importantly the real packetrate. (As updaterate is merely a desired 'boot-time' variable, whereas packetrate is an observed variable of the run-time system). at cl_interp 0.1 the above scenario cuts a VERY fine line and will cause an extrapolation scenario relatively frequently. On 8/8/05, James Tucker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Clayton, honestly sir for someone with quite a
[hlds] hl1 vac2
My console doesnt display its downloading VAC and its starting as fast like it would be insecure. Still it shows VAC is active, is this normal? Saint K. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] hl1 vac2
This is correct, Vac2 is no longer downloaded onto the server then transmitted to clients. Its all done through steam/steam servers -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Saint K. Sent: 09 August 2005 11:21 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds] hl1 vac2 My console doesnt display its downloading VAC and its starting as fast like it would be insecure. Still it shows VAC is active, is this normal? Saint K. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.4/66 - Release Date: 09/08/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] shots registering
pre-script (probably not an actual term, heh. Probably should be 'foreword.'): I've rewritten this about 5 times now, trying to come at it from different angles each time, heh. I still am not sure if it comes across very well... well, I don't know if I'm grossly misunderstanding something or if you are. The server takes client input and calculates the next tick. Then it sends that tick's data to clients. The fact that there are 33 ticks per second doesn't mean the server is taking 1/33 of a second to calculate a tick. The amount of time it takes to handle that player input doesn't mean the next tick is delayed by that much. The ticks happen at a fixed rate. Not an approximate one. Not a loosely governed one. They happen at regular intervals. This does not mean that it takes 1/33 of a second to calculate them. This only means that 33 of them occur per second. It might only take 1/333 of a second to calculate it. The rest of the time is spent doing absolutely nothing. Again, the server fps tells you how quickly the code that handles input is running. If it is running faster than the tickrate, then this means that the tick calculations are not being starved for data. This means everything is happening fast enough for the gameworld to continue onward without incident. This is why Alfred (or if not Alfred, it was someone from Valve anyways) has said in the past that as long as your server fps is higher than your tickrate everything is hunky dory. How much higher it is is irrelevant, since as long as it is higher the gamestate calculations aren't being starved. As server fps gets higher and higher it only means that there is a lot more idle time spent doing absolutely nothing. Gamestate is king. Nothing happens faster or more often than the gamestate rate, since the only thing happening is that gamestate progression. On 8/9/05, James Tucker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No I didn't, I said it is capable of processing a piece of client data in 1/500 seconds, as opposed to 1/33 seconds (the fact that it rewinds by cl_interp+latency and processes that tick is irrelevant for this discussion). When you do the calculations of the timeline of processing of packets vs. gameworld progression (tick's passing) you will find that server side FPS has a major impact on PROCESSING LATENCY. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH CLIENT LATENCY. Interpolation is not important here, it is merely affected, and moreso when a server is running at a low FPS. The REASON is simple - at 33 fps the server takes - 1 whole tick to process a frame - next update will happen in a minimum of 1 tick's time (no sub-tick udpates (client re-play will occur for corrected ticks) and so on. Forget about the gameworld rate - this is about how fast the server processes data WHEN IT HAS ARRIVED to WHEN IT LEAVES (the server). On a server that is only managing to process one frame per tick (or marginally worse as is common when fps is so low (typicall a machine which can manage 30-35 fps will only run at 30-31, however I have neither the time nor inclanation to explain that one) will send responses 1 tick later than optimal as the next update after a processed command will be 2 ticks after it arrived. Arrive mid-tick - tick completes, next frame makes new tick AND processes client data (can it do both in one frame?), data into queue, next tick - send. I hope this is more clear. :-) Client side interpolation is affected if the updaterate is too low or more importantly the real packetrate. (As updaterate is merely a desired 'boot-time' variable, whereas packetrate is an observed variable of the run-time system). at cl_interp 0.1 the above scenario cuts a VERY fine line and will cause an extrapolation scenario relatively frequently. -- Clayton Macleod ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] hl1 vac2
excelent, thanks - Original Message - From: James Grimstead [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:03 PM Subject: RE: [hlds] hl1 vac2 This is correct, Vac2 is no longer downloaded onto the server then transmitted to clients. Its all done through steam/steam servers -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Saint K. Sent: 09 August 2005 11:21 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds] hl1 vac2 My console doesnt display its downloading VAC and its starting as fast like it would be insecure. Still it shows VAC is active, is this normal? Saint K. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.4/66 - Release Date: 09/08/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
[hlds] sv_uploadmax
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] what does this cvar do ? sv_uploadmax 0.5 its new since last hlds update -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list?
I'm beginning to think its x64. Is anyone running a windows server with x64? I know there are seperate linux binaries for it. I'm going to try setting it up on one of my other computers, to hopefully eliminate computer-specific stuff. Brian wrote: Connection to Steam servers successful. VAC beta secure mode is activated. Adding master server 69.28.151.162:27011 Adding master server 207.173.177.11:27011 sv_enableoldqueries is set to 1 I just tried setting up a HL1 server, and it too didn't appear, which makes me think its my router somehow.. not sure what it could be doing, as the firewall is disabled, along with Stateful Packet Inspection. In addition, the default action of the router is to accept incoming/outgoing packets, but it wouldn't know what to do with them unless they fell into the forwarded ranges.. I've tried with and without VAC, so I think thats not the problem. Could this be client side? The computer running the server is also running the steam client (Yes, I know this could be a bad idea, however I'm fairly confident it can handle it). This is a x64 computer, and there is a bug with the server list (It repeats servers over and over again, and fails to get more then 10 or so servers). I doubt it is a clientside problem, as I've asked a couple of people if they can see my server, and they say no. I'm pretty much out of things that it could be :/ Sgt.Rock -=GOM=- wrote: About sv_region... My mistake.. ;) Had them switched in my head :p In your console... Do you get a respons like this? Connection to Steam servers successful. Adding master server 69.28.151.162:27011 Adding master server 207.173.177.11:27011 (ish) And/or do you also get som challenge-errors? If so, I have previously experienced that I had to put this in server.cfg: sv_enableoldqueries 1 (will allow old format of query from 3.party game-managers) A steam-update 13. may this year changed the format for server-queries... Why it help on the missing entry in the master-list I don't know, but it worked for me... Regards, Sgt.Rock -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: Brian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 8. august 2005 19:09 Til: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Emne: Re: SV: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list? Adding the ip x.x.x.x line to my server.cfg didn't do anything. If I use a packet sniffer I can see the heartbeat commands being sent to the servers, then a little while later I see the master servers request stuff from my server, (rules, players, etc).. but they still don't add it to the server list. I think sv_region 0 is east coast, eastcoast - sv_region 0 westcoast - sv_region 1 south america - sv_region 2 europe - sv_region 3 asia - sv_region 4 australia - sv_region 5 middle east - sv_region 6 africa - sv_region 7 world - sv_region 255 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] sv_uploadmax
read steam news ? http://steampowered.com/index.php?area=newsid=431 quote : Added sv_uploadmax cvar to limit the max size (in MB) a client can use for a custom resource (i.e spray decals) - Original Message - From: Stomper [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:27 PM Subject: [hlds] sv_uploadmax This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] what does this cvar do ? sv_uploadmax 0.5 its new since last hlds update -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] sv_uploadmax
ok thx - Original Message - From: Oum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] sv_uploadmax read steam news ? http://steampowered.com/index.php?area=newsid=431 quote : Added sv_uploadmax cvar to limit the max size (in MB) a client can use for a custom resource (i.e spray decals) - Original Message - From: Stomper [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:27 PM Subject: [hlds] sv_uploadmax This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] what does this cvar do ? sv_uploadmax 0.5 its new since last hlds update -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list?
Its not a 64bit problem. I had the same results running a server on a 32bit computer. I just set up explicit rules in my router to allow all traffic to the two master server IP's, and not to preform stateful packet inspection on that traffic. It doesn't seem to be making a difference at all. Is there any way I can see if the server is getting an error when it tries to connect to the master server? Brian wrote: I'm beginning to think its x64. Is anyone running a windows server with x64? I know there are seperate linux binaries for it. I'm going to try setting it up on one of my other computers, to hopefully eliminate computer-specific stuff. Brian wrote: Connection to Steam servers successful. VAC beta secure mode is activated. Adding master server 69.28.151.162:27011 Adding master server 207.173.177.11:27011 sv_enableoldqueries is set to 1 I just tried setting up a HL1 server, and it too didn't appear, which makes me think its my router somehow.. not sure what it could be doing, as the firewall is disabled, along with Stateful Packet Inspection. In addition, the default action of the router is to accept incoming/outgoing packets, but it wouldn't know what to do with them unless they fell into the forwarded ranges.. I've tried with and without VAC, so I think thats not the problem. Could this be client side? The computer running the server is also running the steam client (Yes, I know this could be a bad idea, however I'm fairly confident it can handle it). This is a x64 computer, and there is a bug with the server list (It repeats servers over and over again, and fails to get more then 10 or so servers). I doubt it is a clientside problem, as I've asked a couple of people if they can see my server, and they say no. I'm pretty much out of things that it could be :/ Sgt.Rock -=GOM=- wrote: About sv_region... My mistake.. ;) Had them switched in my head :p In your console... Do you get a respons like this? Connection to Steam servers successful. Adding master server 69.28.151.162:27011 Adding master server 207.173.177.11:27011 (ish) And/or do you also get som challenge-errors? If so, I have previously experienced that I had to put this in server.cfg: sv_enableoldqueries 1 (will allow old format of query from 3.party game-managers) A steam-update 13. may this year changed the format for server-queries... Why it help on the missing entry in the master-list I don't know, but it worked for me... Regards, Sgt.Rock -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: Brian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 8. august 2005 19:09 Til: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Emne: Re: SV: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list? Adding the ip x.x.x.x line to my server.cfg didn't do anything. If I use a packet sniffer I can see the heartbeat commands being sent to the servers, then a little while later I see the master servers request stuff from my server, (rules, players, etc).. but they still don't add it to the server list. I think sv_region 0 is east coast, eastcoast - sv_region 0 westcoast - sv_region 1 south america - sv_region 2 europe - sv_region 3 asia - sv_region 4 australia - sv_region 5 middle east - sv_region 6 africa - sv_region 7 world - sv_region 255 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list?
Have you tried it with a different modem/router? A few years ago I had some adventures in cheap low-end router hell, and one thing I found was that some routers had some serious issues, such as Belkin for example. Cisco tested the best, Linksys was second. Most others had various issues, such as Netgear has a very small routing table and firmware that tends to reset the router on a regular basis, early Linksys firmware was ...well, shite for the most part but current firmware is pretty good. Dlink and Belkin were on the bottom of the crap router list. Nothing I did made my server appear on the list while using a Belkin router. Replaced the Belkin with a Netgear, poof, server is on the list! I have to use a Actiontek modem because of my ISP, but I put it in gateway mode and use the Linksys to handle the PPPOE and that pretty much eliminates the Actiontek (which is a cheap piece of junk modem/router) from causing problems. If you happen to have WRT54G laying around, and if you can put your modem in gateway mode, you might try that. - Original Message - From: Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list? I'm beginning to think its x64. Is anyone running a windows server with x64? I know there are seperate linux binaries for it. I'm going to try setting it up on one of my other computers, to hopefully eliminate computer-specific stuff. Brian wrote: Connection to Steam servers successful. VAC beta secure mode is activated. Adding master server 69.28.151.162:27011 Adding master server 207.173.177.11:27011 sv_enableoldqueries is set to 1 I just tried setting up a HL1 server, and it too didn't appear, which makes me think its my router somehow.. not sure what it could be doing, as the firewall is disabled, along with Stateful Packet Inspection. In addition, the default action of the router is to accept incoming/outgoing packets, but it wouldn't know what to do with them unless they fell into the forwarded ranges.. I've tried with and without VAC, so I think thats not the problem. Could this be client side? The computer running the server is also running the steam client (Yes, I know this could be a bad idea, however I'm fairly confident it can handle it). This is a x64 computer, and there is a bug with the server list (It repeats servers over and over again, and fails to get more then 10 or so servers). I doubt it is a clientside problem, as I've asked a couple of people if they can see my server, and they say no. I'm pretty much out of things that it could be :/ Sgt.Rock -=GOM=- wrote: About sv_region... My mistake.. ;) Had them switched in my head :p In your console... Do you get a respons like this? Connection to Steam servers successful. Adding master server 69.28.151.162:27011 Adding master server 207.173.177.11:27011 (ish) And/or do you also get som challenge-errors? If so, I have previously experienced that I had to put this in server.cfg: sv_enableoldqueries 1 (will allow old format of query from 3.party game-managers) A steam-update 13. may this year changed the format for server-queries... Why it help on the missing entry in the master-list I don't know, but it worked for me... Regards, Sgt.Rock -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: Brian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 8. august 2005 19:09 Til: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Emne: Re: SV: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list? Adding the ip x.x.x.x line to my server.cfg didn't do anything. If I use a packet sniffer I can see the heartbeat commands being sent to the servers, then a little while later I see the master servers request stuff from my server, (rules, players, etc).. but they still don't add it to the server list. I think sv_region 0 is east coast, eastcoast - sv_region 0 westcoast - sv_region 1 south america - sv_region 2 europe - sv_region 3 asia - sv_region 4 australia - sv_region 5 middle east - sv_region 6 africa - sv_region 7 world - sv_region 255 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] sv_uploadmax
Hmmm that sv_uploadmax doesn't work with the Source engine yet then? - Original Message - From: Oum [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] sv_uploadmax read steam news ? http://steampowered.com/index.php?area=newsid=431 quote : Added sv_uploadmax cvar to limit the max size (in MB) a client can use for a custom resource (i.e spray decals) - Original Message - From: Stomper [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:27 PM Subject: [hlds] sv_uploadmax This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] what does this cvar do ? sv_uploadmax 0.5 its new since last hlds update -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
[hlds] (no subject)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] update? I just got a update on my client is this required server or no? -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
[hlds] heapsize?
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] how is heapsize figured percentages megs kB or how? just curious thanks -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] (no subject)
WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION DIRT BAG? sprout wrote: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] update? I just got a update on my client is this required server or no? -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] heapsize?
Kilobytes So for a true 128 meg heapsize you would specify 131072 (1024*128) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of sprout Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:10 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds] heapsize? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] how is heapsize figured percentages megs kB or how? just curious thanks -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] VAC secure mode disabled
I keep getting. Could not establish connection to Steam servers. VAC secure mode disabled. I have no firewall and nothing blocking any ports; I have another server that has no problems. I have updated multiple times. Any ideas on what I can try? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Oum Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 7:04 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] VAC secure mode disabled I don't have any router or stuff like that, Windows Firewall is always disabled, and I have disabled my personnal firewall for testing, still nothing. I have sent a support ticket ref # 050808-000254 - Original Message - From: Alfred Reynolds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:04 AM Subject: RE: [hlds] VAC secure mode disabled This isn't VAC1, it is a new set of servers. Something is preventing you connecting to them. Hping2 is a useful tool to debug network connectivity problems. Try running only 1 server on that machine and double check the firewall settings (on both the server machine and any router/NAT devices you may have). If that fails then go to our customer support site, it has a detailed debugging guide. - Alfred Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Oum Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 5:56 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] VAC secure mode disabled hping2 : this is source package for download only, I don't know how to use this. but anyway my firewall is already disabled, and even if enabled, I never had troubles with VAC1 before. Oum - Original Message - From: Alfred Reynolds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:39 AM Subject: RE: [hlds] VAC secure mode disabled Could not establish connection to Steam servers.. It can't make a UDP connection to our Steam servers. Use a tool like hping2 to check for firewalls between you and the Steam servers. - Alfred Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Oum Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 5:32 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds] VAC secure mode disabled WinXP sp2, firewall disabled, HLDS updated but no VAC : hlds console says : couldn't exec listip.cfg Could not establish connection to Steam servers. VAC secure mode disabled. Adding master server 207.173.177.11:27010 Adding master server 69.28.151.162:27010 ] version Protocol version 47 Exe version 1.1.2.5 (cstrike) Exe build: 11:38:02 Aug 8 2005 (3210) Alfred can you help please ? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] shots registering
On 8/9/05, Clayton Macleod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
pre-script (probably not an actual term, heh. Probably should be
'foreword.'): I've rewritten this about 5 times now, trying to come at
it from different angles each time, heh. I still am not sure if it
comes across very well...
:)
well, I don't know if I'm grossly misunderstanding something or if you
are. The server takes client input and calculates the next tick. Then
it sends that tick's data to clients.
Actually, there are more processes going on - remember processing
client data has nothing to do with the current tick (at least, not at
first) as it rewinds by cl_interp+latency and processes that data
(should also have a tick stamp). The next tick to be generated, as you
say does always occur (by default) 33 times per second, no more and no
less. Again, I agree that in rough theory it makes no difference to
the gameworld processing efficiency having FPS from 33 to 1,
however this does not mean it has no effect on the system. As the
system is a single unit, one would expect that effects cause affects,
and indeed they do, as I described before. You see whilst ticks happen
at specific intervals, they can only occur in a free frame (time slot
for processing effectively, although multiple actions can complete in
one time slot). As client data can only be updated every tick, no new
data is ever released before the next tick, thus you are as you say
limited to gameworld state transitions - however the code is operating
on two timelines - real world and game world. It takes TIME to process
a new tick, it takes TIME to process client data, it takes TIME to
process a frame (yes, this is different to a tick, and is more
important to netcode (changing tickrate may change the maximum
packetrate, but don't forget THAT IS REALLY ALL!)). The time taken to
process an incoming frame must not exceed the time to next tick for
optimality (actually, you have more time, but specifics were explained
before) - this is not the same as average fps above tickrate.
The fact that there are 33
ticks per second doesn't mean the server is taking 1/33 of a second to
calculate a tick.
No, it means the server WILL ACITVELY NOT make a new tick for 1/33 of
a second, this is important as it is SET. Packet times are not set
(although they aren't released (server outbound channel only!) until
the next tick!), frame times are not set, and data transfer times are
not set.
The amount of time it takes to handle that player
input doesn't mean the next tick is delayed by that much.
Tick's don't delay, they are supposed to be a rugged timescale, if you
miss a tick, you miss out completely - herin lies the issue.
The ticks
happen at a fixed rate. Not an approximate one. Not a loosely
governed one. They happen at regular intervals. This does not mean
that it takes 1/33 of a second to calculate them.
No but at 33 fps it does! 1 tick per frame. 1 tick takes 1 frame to
calculate, how long is a frame? 1/33rd of a second, so how long is the
server taking to make a tick? 1/33rd of a second.
This only means
that 33 of them occur per second. It might only take 1/333 of a
second to calculate it. The rest of the time is spent doing
absolutely nothing.
The time taken to calculate gameworld changes is governed by the
current processing rate, of which the best measure we currently have
is the servers FPS. A tick cannot be generated outside of a frame, and
similarly a frame cannot happen outside of a previously played tick or
it generates the next tick (once every {tickrate} per second). Spare
frames which occur when there is no client data to be processed may
well be wasted, but that's not what concerns me, as I am concerned
when frames take too long to process.
Again, the server fps tells you how quickly the
code that handles input is running.
Indeed it does! So, if it takes more than a tick to handle the input,
does the input get processed 'on time', given that it's now missed the
last update queue on the OUTPUT channel (which occurs once every tick,
as you've been trying to remind me)?
If it is running faster than the
tickrate, then this means that the tick calculations are not being
starved for data.
Ok, some 'OS' course style terminology then, I am not concerned with
tick's being starved for data, but frames being swamped for data!
This means everything is happening fast enough for
the gameworld to continue onward without incident. This is why Alfred
(or if not Alfred, it was someone from Valve anyways) has said in the
past that as long as your server fps is higher than your tickrate
everything is hunky dory.
I would expect that this statement was intended more generally and
does not cover instances where you may be close to the line. The
problems I describe are common to servers which manage sub 100fps
however, so it's not even that close in reality.
How much higher it is is irrelevant, since
as long as it is higher the gamestate calculations
Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list?
Could be a problem with the router itself, although I would think that I wouldn't be able to have people connect at all if this was the case. It's not exactly something I can change though, the modem and router are combined, a Zoom ADSL X5.. Other then this I haven't had a single problem with it, and it seems no matter what I set it to, it doesn't work. I may be able to test this with my old router and modem.. but I honestly don't expect any different results. OoksServer wrote: Have you tried it with a different modem/router? A few years ago I had some adventures in cheap low-end router hell, and one thing I found was that some routers had some serious issues, such as Belkin for example. Cisco tested the best, Linksys was second. Most others had various issues, such as Netgear has a very small routing table and firmware that tends to reset the router on a regular basis, early Linksys firmware was ...well, shite for the most part but current firmware is pretty good. Dlink and Belkin were on the bottom of the crap router list. Nothing I did made my server appear on the list while using a Belkin router. Replaced the Belkin with a Netgear, poof, server is on the list! I have to use a Actiontek modem because of my ISP, but I put it in gateway mode and use the Linksys to handle the PPPOE and that pretty much eliminates the Actiontek (which is a cheap piece of junk modem/router) from causing problems. If you happen to have WRT54G laying around, and if you can put your modem in gateway mode, you might try that. - Original Message - From: Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list? I'm beginning to think its x64. Is anyone running a windows server with x64? I know there are seperate linux binaries for it. I'm going to try setting it up on one of my other computers, to hopefully eliminate computer-specific stuff. Brian wrote: Connection to Steam servers successful. VAC beta secure mode is activated. Adding master server 69.28.151.162:27011 Adding master server 207.173.177.11:27011 sv_enableoldqueries is set to 1 I just tried setting up a HL1 server, and it too didn't appear, which makes me think its my router somehow.. not sure what it could be doing, as the firewall is disabled, along with Stateful Packet Inspection. In addition, the default action of the router is to accept incoming/outgoing packets, but it wouldn't know what to do with them unless they fell into the forwarded ranges.. I've tried with and without VAC, so I think thats not the problem. Could this be client side? The computer running the server is also running the steam client (Yes, I know this could be a bad idea, however I'm fairly confident it can handle it). This is a x64 computer, and there is a bug with the server list (It repeats servers over and over again, and fails to get more then 10 or so servers). I doubt it is a clientside problem, as I've asked a couple of people if they can see my server, and they say no. I'm pretty much out of things that it could be :/ Sgt.Rock -=GOM=- wrote: About sv_region... My mistake.. ;) Had them switched in my head :p In your console... Do you get a respons like this? Connection to Steam servers successful. Adding master server 69.28.151.162:27011 Adding master server 207.173.177.11:27011 (ish) And/or do you also get som challenge-errors? If so, I have previously experienced that I had to put this in server.cfg: sv_enableoldqueries 1 (will allow old format of query from 3.party game-managers) A steam-update 13. may this year changed the format for server-queries... Why it help on the missing entry in the master-list I don't know, but it worked for me... Regards, Sgt.Rock -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: Brian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 8. august 2005 19:09 Til: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Emne: Re: SV: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list? Adding the ip x.x.x.x line to my server.cfg didn't do anything. If I use a packet sniffer I can see the heartbeat commands being sent to the servers, then a little while later I see the master servers request stuff from my server, (rules, players, etc).. but they still don't add it to the server list. I think sv_region 0 is east coast, eastcoast - sv_region 0 westcoast - sv_region 1 south america - sv_region 2 europe - sv_region 3 asia - sv_region 4 australia - sv_region 5 middle east - sv_region 6 africa - sv_region 7 world - sv_region 255 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your
Re: [hlds] shots registering
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
BTW, when any of you are fooling around with these settings, you need to do
a map change before you will see your new settings take effect. It can be
changed to the same map, the server simply must go through that map change
sequence or you will not see any difference on your server.
Cheers
On 8/10/05, James Tucker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 8/9/05, Clayton Macleod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
pre-script (probably not an actual term, heh. Probably should be
'foreword.'): I've rewritten this about 5 times now, trying to come at
it from different angles each time, heh. I still am not sure if it
comes across very well...
:)
well, I don't know if I'm grossly misunderstanding something or if you
are. The server takes client input and calculates the next tick. Then
it sends that tick's data to clients.
Actually, there are more processes going on - remember processing
client data has nothing to do with the current tick (at least, not at
first) as it rewinds by cl_interp+latency and processes that data
(should also have a tick stamp). The next tick to be generated, as you
say does always occur (by default) 33 times per second, no more and no
less. Again, I agree that in rough theory it makes no difference to
the gameworld processing efficiency having FPS from 33 to 1,
however this does not mean it has no effect on the system. As the
system is a single unit, one would expect that effects cause affects,
and indeed they do, as I described before. You see whilst ticks happen
at specific intervals, they can only occur in a free frame (time slot
for processing effectively, although multiple actions can complete in
one time slot). As client data can only be updated every tick, no new
data is ever released before the next tick, thus you are as you say
limited to gameworld state transitions - however the code is operating
on two timelines - real world and game world. It takes TIME to process
a new tick, it takes TIME to process client data, it takes TIME to
process a frame (yes, this is different to a tick, and is more
important to netcode (changing tickrate may change the maximum
packetrate, but don't forget THAT IS REALLY ALL!)). The time taken to
process an incoming frame must not exceed the time to next tick for
optimality (actually, you have more time, but specifics were explained
before) - this is not the same as average fps above tickrate.
The fact that there are 33
ticks per second doesn't mean the server is taking 1/33 of a second to
calculate a tick.
No, it means the server WILL ACITVELY NOT make a new tick for 1/33 of
a second, this is important as it is SET. Packet times are not set
(although they aren't released (server outbound channel only!) until
the next tick!), frame times are not set, and data transfer times are
not set.
The amount of time it takes to handle that player
input doesn't mean the next tick is delayed by that much.
Tick's don't delay, they are supposed to be a rugged timescale, if you
miss a tick, you miss out completely - herin lies the issue.
The ticks
happen at a fixed rate. Not an approximate one. Not a loosely
governed one. They happen at regular intervals. This does not mean
that it takes 1/33 of a second to calculate them.
No but at 33 fps it does! 1 tick per frame. 1 tick takes 1 frame to
calculate, how long is a frame? 1/33rd of a second, so how long is the
server taking to make a tick? 1/33rd of a second.
This only means
that 33 of them occur per second. It might only take 1/333 of a
second to calculate it. The rest of the time is spent doing
absolutely nothing.
The time taken to calculate gameworld changes is governed by the
current processing rate, of which the best measure we currently have
is the servers FPS. A tick cannot be generated outside of a frame, and
similarly a frame cannot happen outside of a previously played tick or
it generates the next tick (once every {tickrate} per second). Spare
frames which occur when there is no client data to be processed may
well be wasted, but that's not what concerns me, as I am concerned
when frames take too long to process.
Again, the server fps tells you how quickly the
code that handles input is running.
Indeed it does! So, if it takes more than a tick to handle the input,
does the input get processed 'on time', given that it's now missed the
last update queue on the OUTPUT channel (which occurs once every tick,
as you've been trying to remind me)?
If it is running faster than the
tickrate, then this means that the tick calculations are not being
starved for data.
Ok, some 'OS' course style terminology then, I am not concerned with
tick's being starved for data, but frames being swamped for data!
This means everything is happening fast enough for
the gameworld to continue onward without incident. This is why Alfred
(or if not Alfred, it was someone from Valve
Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list?
If your modem will go into bridge mode, and most do, and if your ISP supports it, you can set the Zoom to bridge, and put something like a WRT54G behind it. I've done this sucessfully, but it's not for the meek at heart :) Then see if your server appears on the list. Oh, BTW, please post your IP address and server name so we can look at your server. - Original Message - From: Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list? Could be a problem with the router itself, although I would think that I wouldn't be able to have people connect at all if this was the case. It's not exactly something I can change though, the modem and router are combined, a Zoom ADSL X5.. Other then this I haven't had a single problem with it, and it seems no matter what I set it to, it doesn't work. I may be able to test this with my old router and modem.. but I honestly don't expect any different results. OoksServer wrote: Have you tried it with a different modem/router? A few years ago I had some adventures in cheap low-end router hell, and one thing I found was that some routers had some serious issues, such as Belkin for example. Cisco tested the best, Linksys was second. Most others had various issues, such as Netgear has a very small routing table and firmware that tends to reset the router on a regular basis, early Linksys firmware was ...well, shite for the most part but current firmware is pretty good. Dlink and Belkin were on the bottom of the crap router list. Nothing I did made my server appear on the list while using a Belkin router. Replaced the Belkin with a Netgear, poof, server is on the list! I have to use a Actiontek modem because of my ISP, but I put it in gateway mode and use the Linksys to handle the PPPOE and that pretty much eliminates the Actiontek (which is a cheap piece of junk modem/router) from causing problems. If you happen to have WRT54G laying around, and if you can put your modem in gateway mode, you might try that. snip ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] shots registering
I give up. You're contradicting yourself, stating one thing and a little while later something else, disagreeing with me one minute, and agreeing the next while thinking you're still disagreeing, and even throwing in some condescension for good measure. (OK, that part I liked, heh) Have a good one. I've lost interest trying to find out where we're both wrong and both right. On 8/9/05, James Tucker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip -- Clayton Macleod ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list?
I can't exactly use bridge mode, even if the modem supported it. Theres 4 computers, a wireless access point, and a printer that all need to be conencted to the network. Bridge mode would turn control of the conenction to some other device on the network, which wouldn't be a good thing. I'm going to try using an old modem and router I have tomorrow, maybe that will do something Quintilian 1 wrote: As stated below, you need to see if your isp supports bridge mode. I would do this before selecting bridge. I had the fun experience of trying it while unsupported. It took some doing to reclaim my modem. CJ7 From: Ook [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list? Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:05:16 -0700 If your modem will go into bridge mode, and most do, and if your ISP supports it, you can set the Zoom to bridge, and put something like a WRT54G behind it. I've done this sucessfully, but it's not for the meek at heart :) Then see if your server appears on the list. Oh, BTW, please post your IP address and server name so we can look at your server. - Original Message - From: Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list? Could be a problem with the router itself, although I would think that I wouldn't be able to have people connect at all if this was the case. It's not exactly something I can change though, the modem and router are combined, a Zoom ADSL X5.. Other then this I haven't had a single problem with it, and it seems no matter what I set it to, it doesn't work. I may be able to test this with my old router and modem.. but I honestly don't expect any different results. OoksServer wrote: Have you tried it with a different modem/router? A few years ago I had some adventures in cheap low-end router hell, and one thing I found was that some routers had some serious issues, such as Belkin for example. Cisco tested the best, Linksys was second. Most others had various issues, such as Netgear has a very small routing table and firmware that tends to reset the router on a regular basis, early Linksys firmware was ...well, shite for the most part but current firmware is pretty good. Dlink and Belkin were on the bottom of the crap router list. Nothing I did made my server appear on the list while using a Belkin router. Replaced the Belkin with a Netgear, poof, server is on the list! I have to use a Actiontek modem because of my ISP, but I put it in gateway mode and use the Linksys to handle the PPPOE and that pretty much eliminates the Actiontek (which is a cheap piece of junk modem/router) from causing problems. If you happen to have WRT54G laying around, and if you can put your modem in gateway mode, you might try that. snip ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list?
No, you misunderstand what I'm saying. Put modem in bridge mode. Run cat5 from modem to WRT54G (or equivalent). Setup WRT54G for PPPOE/A, or whatever your ISP requires, including your userid/password. The Zoom modem in bridge mode for all practical purposes becomes invisible. The WRT54G wan IP is the ip your ISP assigns you. It becomes your router, it has the dhcp server in it. All other devices on network work as they always have. It is as if you were using that as your modem. Use it's built in 4 port switch, or run cat5 to another hub/switch/wap, etc. It also has builtin wirelessb/g. The above scenario assumes your ISP supports running your modem in gateway mode, your modem actually does this, and you have a router of some sort that can handle the pppoe/a/etc from your ISP. Mine does, this is what I do, and it works very well. In the above example, bridge mode turns control of the network over to the WRT54G, which has a router and 4 port switch and dhcp server built in. This is a good thing. - Original Message - From: Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list? I can't exactly use bridge mode, even if the modem supported it. Theres 4 computers, a wireless access point, and a printer that all need to be conencted to the network. Bridge mode would turn control of the conenction to some other device on the network, which wouldn't be a good thing. I'm going to try using an old modem and router I have tomorrow, maybe that will do something Quintilian 1 wrote: As stated below, you need to see if your isp supports bridge mode. I would do this before selecting bridge. I had the fun experience of trying it while unsupported. It took some doing to reclaim my modem. CJ7 From: Ook [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list? Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:05:16 -0700 If your modem will go into bridge mode, and most do, and if your ISP supports it, you can set the Zoom to bridge, and put something like a WRT54G behind it. I've done this sucessfully, but it's not for the meek at heart :) Then see if your server appears on the list. Oh, BTW, please post your IP address and server name so we can look at your server. - Original Message - From: Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [hlds] Server isn't being shown on master list? Could be a problem with the router itself, although I would think that I wouldn't be able to have people connect at all if this was the case. It's not exactly something I can change though, the modem and router are combined, a Zoom ADSL X5.. Other then this I haven't had a single problem with it, and it seems no matter what I set it to, it doesn't work. I may be able to test this with my old router and modem.. but I honestly don't expect any different results. OoksServer wrote: Have you tried it with a different modem/router? A few years ago I had some adventures in cheap low-end router hell, and one thing I found was that some routers had some serious issues, such as Belkin for example. Cisco tested the best, Linksys was second. Most others had various issues, such as Netgear has a very small routing table and firmware that tends to reset the router on a regular basis, early Linksys firmware was ...well, shite for the most part but current firmware is pretty good. Dlink and Belkin were on the bottom of the crap router list. Nothing I did made my server appear on the list while using a Belkin router. Replaced the Belkin with a Netgear, poof, server is on the list! I have to use a Actiontek modem because of my ISP, but I put it in gateway mode and use the Linksys to handle the PPPOE and that pretty much eliminates the Actiontek (which is a cheap piece of junk modem/router) from causing problems. If you happen to have WRT54G laying around, and if you can put your modem in gateway mode, you might try that. snip ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
