Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Well said McKay. VAC is especially useless towards a F2P game as well, a hacker can just use throw away accounts if he is so determined. Not keeping your items sure is a deteerent for honest players, but not so much for people who want to cheat troll (which is what half the cheaters I see do, they don't even try to hide it and makes it blindly obvious to annoy players). And is it just me, or have the mailing list discussion dropped off since the quickplay change as well? Majority of the discussions seems to happen in response of updates now too. On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:47 AM, Alexander Corn mc...@doctormckay.com wrote: Here's a free bump since I didn't check the list in a little while. The Quickplay change was the single most harmful change in the history of the game. Gamers are notoriously lazy and entitled. They want their game to start *now*, before the loading screen even goes away. They're going to take the path of least resistance when joining a game. That path is Quickplay. It's all but impossible to start up a new vanilla server these days. You'll get a player or two here and there but the bulk of the population is now being funneled directly to Valve servers. It's almost ironic that Valve made it hardest to host servers the way the game was meant to be played. As others have said, no Valve server was in the top 200 on Gametracker before the change. You might ask why community servers deserve traffic, but I'll ask right back why servers that people wouldn't join on their own deserve most traffic. VAC is designed to work in cooperation with a server administrator. VAC's delayed bans are a deterrent. That is, they attempt to prevent people from cheating in the first place. They're worthless for removing active cheaters. That's what server admins are for, but Valve's servers don't have any. Many players won't ever discover the server browser simply because the main menu design discourages them from clicking on the button. Eventually they'll bore. Bring thrown onto a random Valve server every time is the same way that Call of Duty works and it's pretty notorious for being a bland shooter. Who here thought 8 months ago that today we'd be comparing the TF2 experience to the CoD experience? You can add all kinds of game mechanics. In the end, it's the community that encourages players to come back. Valve servers have no community. We don't want Valve servers to be shut down or anything. I just ask for Valve to reconsider its current stance of community servers can screw off which was supposed to be temporary as it is. Then again, I should be used to the Valve definition of temporary. Go type sv_consistency into the console and see for yourself. On Oct 15, 2014 2:16 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com wrote: I don't mind if he keep bumping the thread with these troll posts. A bump is a bump. Dan (needaxeo) has been trolling these mailing lists for the past 2 years. He doesn't want Valve to take any action because he gave up on his own community and wants to see everyone else fail. He thinks no one can host a better server and we are all trying to make a profit off dirt cheap servers like he did. And he doesn't even play the game anymore so he is just here trolling. Here is the proof when I outed him. https://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg75063.html https://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg75067.html He keeps repeating 2 arguments that have been debunked over and over again. - People are not too stupid or lazy to find the server they want to play. If people weren't stupid or lazy they would never have needed to make official servers default, because they would have been smart enough to add valve to their tags. Even Valve knows most people are stupid or lazy which is why every Steam chat box says Never tell your password to anyone and the URL you have clicked on is not an official Steam website. - Valve servers are objectively the best. Before this quickplay change, none of the official servers were even top 200 on Gametrackers. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Frank ad...@gamerscrib.net wrote: Haven't you learned yet? Arguing with Dan on this is pointless and you are more likely to get hit by lightning than have him understand and see the facts. -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of 1nsane Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2014 1:39 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later Most of them are either too stupid or don't care enough to play the game long enough to explore for other things. I've talked with many new players (usually because they add me to sell stuff). A lot of them are not even
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later Most of them are either too stupid or don't care enough to play the game long enough to explore for other things. I've talked with many new players (usually because they add me to sell stuff). A lot of them are not even aware that there's custom maps. Simply because server browser is too hard to use/slow and there's no such customization on quickplay. Even old time players prefer to use quickplay when they want to feel good so they can stomp on new players seen on valve servers. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:30 PM, dan needa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 14/10/2014 15:39, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek wrote: I think it's about effectively distributing more diversity to make a game less blunt and show to players (new ones and old ones alike) that there's more to the game than meets the current quickplay-eye. That just boils down to another players are too dumb to find and connect to the server they want to fallacy. -- Dan ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
they want to play. If people weren't stupid or lazy they would never have needed to make official servers default, because they would have been smart enough to add valve to their tags. Even Valve knows most people are stupid or lazy which is why every Steam chat box says Never tell your password to anyone and the URL you have clicked on is not an official Steam website. - Valve servers are objectively the best. Before this quickplay change, none of the official servers were even top 200 on Gametrackers. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Frank ad...@gamerscrib.net wrote: Haven't you learned yet? Arguing with Dan on this is pointless and you are more likely to get hit by lightning than have him understand and see the facts. -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of 1nsane Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2014 1:39 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later Most of them are either too stupid or don't care enough to play the game long enough to explore for other things. I've talked with many new players (usually because they add me to sell stuff). A lot of them are not even aware that there's custom maps. Simply because server browser is too hard to use/slow and there's no such customization on quickplay. Even old time players prefer to use quickplay when they want to feel good so they can stomp on new players seen on valve servers. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:30 PM, dan needa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 14/10/2014 15:39, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek wrote: I think it's about effectively distributing more diversity to make a game less blunt and show to players (new ones and old ones alike) that there's more to the game than meets the current quickplay-eye. That just boils down to another players are too dumb to find and connect to the server they want to fallacy. -- Dan ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
I had presumed it had just been the impact of BF, COD etc and console conversions that people weren't playing on community servers as much, as ICS and others the drop of players makes it harder to offer a gaming community. Maybe we should all just convert to online casino's for the $ I thought clients didn't care about communities anymore but it would appear tobe Valve. -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of ics Sent: 24 October 2014 09:09 To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later After the quickplay change, my 4x24 servers turned from full to 1 full a day, excluding the halloween. Just because that extra quickplay traffic was cut off, that filled the rest of the empty slots. All i wanted was to offer place to play on but it looks like i'm losing most of my interest after 9 years to continue doing this. But it seems it's pointless to fight against the windmill to keep this conversation up. -ics Emil Larsson kirjoitti: Well said McKay. VAC is especially useless towards a F2P game as well, a hacker can just use throw away accounts if he is so determined. Not keeping your items sure is a deteerent for honest players, but not so much for people who want to cheat troll (which is what half the cheaters I see do, they don't even try to hide it and makes it blindly obvious to annoy players). And is it just me, or have the mailing list discussion dropped off since the quickplay change as well? Majority of the discussions seems to happen in response of updates now too. On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:47 AM, Alexander Corn mc...@doctormckay.com wrote: Here's a free bump since I didn't check the list in a little while. The Quickplay change was the single most harmful change in the history of the game. Gamers are notoriously lazy and entitled. They want their game to start *now*, before the loading screen even goes away. They're going to take the path of least resistance when joining a game. That path is Quickplay. It's all but impossible to start up a new vanilla server these days. You'll get a player or two here and there but the bulk of the population is now being funneled directly to Valve servers. It's almost ironic that Valve made it hardest to host servers the way the game was meant to be played. As others have said, no Valve server was in the top 200 on Gametracker before the change. You might ask why community servers deserve traffic, but I'll ask right back why servers that people wouldn't join on their own deserve most traffic. VAC is designed to work in cooperation with a server administrator. VAC's delayed bans are a deterrent. That is, they attempt to prevent people from cheating in the first place. They're worthless for removing active cheaters. That's what server admins are for, but Valve's servers don't have any. Many players won't ever discover the server browser simply because the main menu design discourages them from clicking on the button. Eventually they'll bore. Bring thrown onto a random Valve server every time is the same way that Call of Duty works and it's pretty notorious for being a bland shooter. Who here thought 8 months ago that today we'd be comparing the TF2 experience to the CoD experience? You can add all kinds of game mechanics. In the end, it's the community that encourages players to come back. Valve servers have no community. We don't want Valve servers to be shut down or anything. I just ask for Valve to reconsider its current stance of community servers can screw off which was supposed to be temporary as it is. Then again, I should be used to the Valve definition of temporary. Go type sv_consistency into the console and see for yourself. On Oct 15, 2014 2:16 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com wrote: I don't mind if he keep bumping the thread with these troll posts. A bump is a bump. Dan (needaxeo) has been trolling these mailing lists for the past 2 years. He doesn't want Valve to take any action because he gave up on his own community and wants to see everyone else fail. He thinks no one can host a better server and we are all trying to make a profit off dirt cheap servers like he did. And he doesn't even play the game anymore so he is just here trolling. Here is the proof when I outed him. https://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg750 63.html https://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg750 67.html He keeps repeating 2 arguments that have been debunked over and over again. - People are not too stupid or lazy to find the server they want to play. If people weren't stupid or lazy they would never have needed to make official servers default, because they would have been smart enough to add valve to their tags. Even
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Hi, On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 18:47 -0400, Alexander Corn wrote: The Quickplay change was the single most harmful change in the history of the game. Gamers are notoriously lazy and entitled. They want their game to start *now*, before the loading screen even goes away. They're going to take the path of least resistance when joining a game. That path is Quickplay. I know this is going to be the unpopular opinion here, but I personally like that change. I can not count the number of times I just wanted to play now and got thrown onto pay-to-win, advertisement-full servers that required me to watch stuff for x seconds, or even wouldn't let me connect unless I enabled HTML motds, or bot-filled servers with noone else on them. All these annoyments are gone now. If I feel in the mood for a quick game, I get a quick game without any bullshit. So I for one do like that change. CU, Sec -- Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. - Isaac Asimov ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
They cannot run ads anymore, if they fake with bots it should not work either. Either way they changed it so much that it should be ok experience and then they removed community all together. If they wanted more vanilla experience they should have worked more on removing those bad servers. I don't run ads on our server, tried it once but didn't like it. We don't rely on ads to make a living where as some people use ads purely to make money. And yes even i DO like the quickplay button but i rather want to join an active community server that obeys the rules rather then joining yet another pub bash. 2014-10-24 11:41 GMT+02:00 Stefan `Sec` Zehl s...@42.org: Hi, On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 18:47 -0400, Alexander Corn wrote: The Quickplay change was the single most harmful change in the history of the game. Gamers are notoriously lazy and entitled. They want their game to start *now*, before the loading screen even goes away. They're going to take the path of least resistance when joining a game. That path is Quickplay. I know this is going to be the unpopular opinion here, but I personally like that change. I can not count the number of times I just wanted to play now and got thrown onto pay-to-win, advertisement-full servers that required me to watch stuff for x seconds, or even wouldn't let me connect unless I enabled HTML motds, or bot-filled servers with noone else on them. All these annoyments are gone now. If I feel in the mood for a quick game, I get a quick game without any bullshit. So I for one do like that change. CU, Sec -- Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. - Isaac Asimov ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
I don't think people have a problem with that it's possible to select Valve servers in quickplay, but rather that Valve servers is selected by default. By default it should be any server really, and then people can customize that if they want to prefer valve of community servers. They also disabled the HTML motd if you joined through quickplay to combat the ad-ridden servers, so that point is moot anyway. On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Stefan `Sec` Zehl s...@42.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 18:47 -0400, Alexander Corn wrote: The Quickplay change was the single most harmful change in the history of the game. Gamers are notoriously lazy and entitled. They want their game to start *now*, before the loading screen even goes away. They're going to take the path of least resistance when joining a game. That path is Quickplay. I know this is going to be the unpopular opinion here, but I personally like that change. I can not count the number of times I just wanted to play now and got thrown onto pay-to-win, advertisement-full servers that required me to watch stuff for x seconds, or even wouldn't let me connect unless I enabled HTML motds, or bot-filled servers with noone else on them. All these annoyments are gone now. If I feel in the mood for a quick game, I get a quick game without any bullshit. So I for one do like that change. CU, Sec -- Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. - Isaac Asimov ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Thank you for proving my path of least resistance point. You could always (and still can) just open the server browser and type valve in the tags box. On Oct 24, 2014 5:42 AM, Stefan `Sec` Zehl s...@42.org wrote: Hi, On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 18:47 -0400, Alexander Corn wrote: The Quickplay change was the single most harmful change in the history of the game. Gamers are notoriously lazy and entitled. They want their game to start *now*, before the loading screen even goes away. They're going to take the path of least resistance when joining a game. That path is Quickplay. I know this is going to be the unpopular opinion here, but I personally like that change. I can not count the number of times I just wanted to play now and got thrown onto pay-to-win, advertisement-full servers that required me to watch stuff for x seconds, or even wouldn't let me connect unless I enabled HTML motds, or bot-filled servers with noone else on them. All these annoyments are gone now. If I feel in the mood for a quick game, I get a quick game without any bullshit. So I for one do like that change. CU, Sec -- Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. - Isaac Asimov ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Hi, On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:08 +0200, Emil Larsson wrote: I don't think people have a problem with that it's possible to select Valve servers in quickplay, but rather that Valve servers is selected by default. By default it should be any server really, and then people can customize that if they want to prefer valve of community servers. I disagree. People who don't change settings and land on a bad server will assume that Valve messed up. So it makes sense to put those players on default servers. Look, it's server owners who didn't play by the rules who created this problem. Valve fixed it in the way they could do it without eating up way more timepeople resources. I like the situation now way better than before, where I had to keep blacklists to even be able to play sanely. They also disabled the HTML motd if you joined through quickplay to combat the ad-ridden servers, so that point is moot anyway. This is also missing the point. Even while playing I can get several annoying messages all over my screen (yes, they are text only, but no less annoying) bothering me to pay for this oh-so-great server. This is nothing anyone wants to see who hits quickplay. CU, Sec -- stop reading here ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Text bothers you? Go play on a valve server now with kids screaming in the mic spamming the text chat with can i have a free hat or whatever. I cant really see the difference. (and on our servers we didn't spam that either) Sounds to me you really got bad at finding a nice server, the thing with a community is that once you find a server YOU like you can favorite it and keep playing there. That is what server owners lost. Granted if you click on quickplay it was more chatroulette.. you first have to go trough waves of ** before you find something nice. But then you can stick to it. Chances are slim that valve will change the policy, but (we) the community that had legit servers with a proper valve experience just got screwed by it. I would not mind going to some kind of registration process to be able to host a valve approved server. That way quickplay is still fine, but why would they? Enough said for now though, we all know the outcome sadly. 2014-10-24 13:14 GMT+02:00 Stefan `Sec` Zehl s...@42.org: Hi, On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:08 +0200, Emil Larsson wrote: I don't think people have a problem with that it's possible to select Valve servers in quickplay, but rather that Valve servers is selected by default. By default it should be any server really, and then people can customize that if they want to prefer valve of community servers. I disagree. People who don't change settings and land on a bad server will assume that Valve messed up. So it makes sense to put those players on default servers. Look, it's server owners who didn't play by the rules who created this problem. Valve fixed it in the way they could do it without eating up way more timepeople resources. I like the situation now way better than before, where I had to keep blacklists to even be able to play sanely. They also disabled the HTML motd if you joined through quickplay to combat the ad-ridden servers, so that point is moot anyway. This is also missing the point. Even while playing I can get several annoying messages all over my screen (yes, they are text only, but no less annoying) bothering me to pay for this oh-so-great server. This is nothing anyone wants to see who hits quickplay. CU, Sec -- stop reading here ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
I understand your point but i for example, didn't run any advertisements of any kind or pay-to-win crap. What Emil said is the thing that bothers me - Valve servers are selected by default as number #1 setting and that has been a kick into the head for the rest of us who have been around years and offering servers, _playing by the rules_. You could still tick to that extra square there to search only Valve servers. I and my freinds have been playing on some Valve servers as a comparison. You want the people to yell and food the chat? Play music over microphone? Play with someone who cheats? Yeah thats the real fun of it. The skill level vs the one for example on the servers i run is lower, i end up being highest on scoreboard and only a mid place on my own servers. Yes - random crits are enabled on both. -ics Stefan `Sec` Zehl kirjoitti: Hi, On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 18:47 -0400, Alexander Corn wrote: The Quickplay change was the single most harmful change in the history of the game. Gamers are notoriously lazy and entitled. They want their game to start *now*, before the loading screen even goes away. They're going to take the path of least resistance when joining a game. That path is Quickplay. I know this is going to be the unpopular opinion here, but I personally like that change. I can not count the number of times I just wanted to play now and got thrown onto pay-to-win, advertisement-full servers that required me to watch stuff for x seconds, or even wouldn't let me connect unless I enabled HTML motds, or bot-filled servers with noone else on them. All these annoyments are gone now. If I feel in the mood for a quick game, I get a quick game without any bullshit. So I for one do like that change. CU, Sec ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
This could be easily solved by simply enabling the box by default for a player's first 5 hours or so of playtime, then unchecking it (or presenting them with a dialog prompting them to disable it to check out the community aspect of TF2, which they could decline). McKay -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Stefan `Sec` Zehl Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 7:15 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later Hi, On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:08 +0200, Emil Larsson wrote: I don't think people have a problem with that it's possible to select Valve servers in quickplay, but rather that Valve servers is selected by default. By default it should be any server really, and then people can customize that if they want to prefer valve of community servers. I disagree. People who don't change settings and land on a bad server will assume that Valve messed up. So it makes sense to put those players on default servers. Look, it's server owners who didn't play by the rules who created this problem. Valve fixed it in the way they could do it without eating up way more timepeople resources. I like the situation now way better than before, where I had to keep blacklists to even be able to play sanely. They also disabled the HTML motd if you joined through quickplay to combat the ad-ridden servers, so that point is moot anyway. This is also missing the point. Even while playing I can get several annoying messages all over my screen (yes, they are text only, but no less annoying) bothering me to pay for this oh-so-great server. This is nothing anyone wants to see who hits quickplay. CU, Sec -- stop reading here ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Perfect suggestion here +1 from me -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Alexander Corn Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 2:38 PM To: 'Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list' Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later This could be easily solved by simply enabling the box by default for a player's first 5 hours or so of playtime, then unchecking it (or presenting them with a dialog prompting them to disable it to check out the community aspect of TF2, which they could decline). McKay -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Stefan `Sec` Zehl Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 7:15 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later Hi, On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:08 +0200, Emil Larsson wrote: I don't think people have a problem with that it's possible to select Valve servers in quickplay, but rather that Valve servers is selected by default. By default it should be any server really, and then people can customize that if they want to prefer valve of community servers. I disagree. People who don't change settings and land on a bad server will assume that Valve messed up. So it makes sense to put those players on default servers. Look, it's server owners who didn't play by the rules who created this problem. Valve fixed it in the way they could do it without eating up way more timepeople resources. I like the situation now way better than before, where I had to keep blacklists to even be able to play sanely. They also disabled the HTML motd if you joined through quickplay to combat the ad-ridden servers, so that point is moot anyway. This is also missing the point. Even while playing I can get several annoying messages all over my screen (yes, they are text only, but no less annoying) bothering me to pay for this oh-so-great server. This is nothing anyone wants to see who hits quickplay. CU, Sec -- stop reading here ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Excellent suggestion. I think I've already seen something like it suggested in the past though, maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm right then Valve ignored that :(, hopefully I'm wrong there. On 24 October 2014 20:25, Frank ad...@gamerscrib.net wrote: Perfect suggestion here +1 from me -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Alexander Corn Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 2:38 PM To: 'Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list' Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later This could be easily solved by simply enabling the box by default for a player's first 5 hours or so of playtime, then unchecking it (or presenting them with a dialog prompting them to disable it to check out the community aspect of TF2, which they could decline). McKay -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Stefan `Sec` Zehl Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 7:15 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later Hi, On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:08 +0200, Emil Larsson wrote: I don't think people have a problem with that it's possible to select Valve servers in quickplay, but rather that Valve servers is selected by default. By default it should be any server really, and then people can customize that if they want to prefer valve of community servers. I disagree. People who don't change settings and land on a bad server will assume that Valve messed up. So it makes sense to put those players on default servers. Look, it's server owners who didn't play by the rules who created this problem. Valve fixed it in the way they could do it without eating up way more timepeople resources. I like the situation now way better than before, where I had to keep blacklists to even be able to play sanely. They also disabled the HTML motd if you joined through quickplay to combat the ad-ridden servers, so that point is moot anyway. This is also missing the point. Even while playing I can get several annoying messages all over my screen (yes, they are text only, but no less annoying) bothering me to pay for this oh-so-great server. This is nothing anyone wants to see who hits quickplay. CU, Sec -- stop reading here ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
I suggested automatically unchecking the box after a few hours several months ago. The suggestion for a popup box telling people to uncheck the box will not work. Players are just going to be lazy and click ok without reading it. It will be the same problem we have now. On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote: Excellent suggestion. I think I've already seen something like it suggested in the past though, maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm right then Valve ignored that :(, hopefully I'm wrong there. On 24 October 2014 20:25, Frank ad...@gamerscrib.net wrote: Perfect suggestion here +1 from me -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Alexander Corn Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 2:38 PM To: 'Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list' Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later This could be easily solved by simply enabling the box by default for a player's first 5 hours or so of playtime, then unchecking it (or presenting them with a dialog prompting them to disable it to check out the community aspect of TF2, which they could decline). McKay -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Stefan `Sec` Zehl Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 7:15 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later Hi, On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:08 +0200, Emil Larsson wrote: I don't think people have a problem with that it's possible to select Valve servers in quickplay, but rather that Valve servers is selected by default. By default it should be any server really, and then people can customize that if they want to prefer valve of community servers. I disagree. People who don't change settings and land on a bad server will assume that Valve messed up. So it makes sense to put those players on default servers. Look, it's server owners who didn't play by the rules who created this problem. Valve fixed it in the way they could do it without eating up way more timepeople resources. I like the situation now way better than before, where I had to keep blacklists to even be able to play sanely. They also disabled the HTML motd if you joined through quickplay to combat the ad-ridden servers, so that point is moot anyway. This is also missing the point. Even while playing I can get several annoying messages all over my screen (yes, they are text only, but no less annoying) bothering me to pay for this oh-so-great server. This is nothing anyone wants to see who hits quickplay. CU, Sec -- stop reading here ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Here's a free bump since I didn't check the list in a little while. The Quickplay change was the single most harmful change in the history of the game. Gamers are notoriously lazy and entitled. They want their game to start *now*, before the loading screen even goes away. They're going to take the path of least resistance when joining a game. That path is Quickplay. It's all but impossible to start up a new vanilla server these days. You'll get a player or two here and there but the bulk of the population is now being funneled directly to Valve servers. It's almost ironic that Valve made it hardest to host servers the way the game was meant to be played. As others have said, no Valve server was in the top 200 on Gametracker before the change. You might ask why community servers deserve traffic, but I'll ask right back why servers that people wouldn't join on their own deserve most traffic. VAC is designed to work in cooperation with a server administrator. VAC's delayed bans are a deterrent. That is, they attempt to prevent people from cheating in the first place. They're worthless for removing active cheaters. That's what server admins are for, but Valve's servers don't have any. Many players won't ever discover the server browser simply because the main menu design discourages them from clicking on the button. Eventually they'll bore. Bring thrown onto a random Valve server every time is the same way that Call of Duty works and it's pretty notorious for being a bland shooter. Who here thought 8 months ago that today we'd be comparing the TF2 experience to the CoD experience? You can add all kinds of game mechanics. In the end, it's the community that encourages players to come back. Valve servers have no community. We don't want Valve servers to be shut down or anything. I just ask for Valve to reconsider its current stance of community servers can screw off which was supposed to be temporary as it is. Then again, I should be used to the Valve definition of temporary. Go type sv_consistency into the console and see for yourself. On Oct 15, 2014 2:16 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com wrote: I don't mind if he keep bumping the thread with these troll posts. A bump is a bump. Dan (needaxeo) has been trolling these mailing lists for the past 2 years. He doesn't want Valve to take any action because he gave up on his own community and wants to see everyone else fail. He thinks no one can host a better server and we are all trying to make a profit off dirt cheap servers like he did. And he doesn't even play the game anymore so he is just here trolling. Here is the proof when I outed him. https://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg75063.html https://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg75067.html He keeps repeating 2 arguments that have been debunked over and over again. - People are not too stupid or lazy to find the server they want to play. If people weren't stupid or lazy they would never have needed to make official servers default, because they would have been smart enough to add valve to their tags. Even Valve knows most people are stupid or lazy which is why every Steam chat box says Never tell your password to anyone and the URL you have clicked on is not an official Steam website. - Valve servers are objectively the best. Before this quickplay change, none of the official servers were even top 200 on Gametrackers. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Frank ad...@gamerscrib.net wrote: Haven't you learned yet? Arguing with Dan on this is pointless and you are more likely to get hit by lightning than have him understand and see the facts. -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of 1nsane Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2014 1:39 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later Most of them are either too stupid or don't care enough to play the game long enough to explore for other things. I've talked with many new players (usually because they add me to sell stuff). A lot of them are not even aware that there's custom maps. Simply because server browser is too hard to use/slow and there's no such customization on quickplay. Even old time players prefer to use quickplay when they want to feel good so they can stomp on new players seen on valve servers. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:30 PM, dan needa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 14/10/2014 15:39, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek wrote: I think it's about effectively distributing more diversity to make a game less blunt and show to players (new ones and old ones alike) that there's more to the game than meets the current quickplay-eye. That just boils down to another players are too dumb to find and connect to the server they want
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
On 14/10/2014 15:39, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek wrote: I think it's about effectively distributing more diversity to make a game less blunt and show to players (new ones and old ones alike) that there's more to the game than meets the current quickplay-eye. That just boils down to another players are too dumb to find and connect to the server they want to fallacy. -- Dan ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
On 14/10/2014 08:30, Ilya Larin wrote: Well, server owners are also a very important part of the community Well, nothing's stopping them feeling important on their empty server is it? Do they want a badge? -- Dan ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Most of them are either too stupid or don't care enough to play the game long enough to explore for other things. I've talked with many new players (usually because they add me to sell stuff). A lot of them are not even aware that there's custom maps. Simply because server browser is too hard to use/slow and there's no such customization on quickplay. Even old time players prefer to use quickplay when they want to feel good so they can stomp on new players seen on valve servers. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:30 PM, dan needa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 14/10/2014 15:39, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek wrote: I think it's about effectively distributing more diversity to make a game less blunt and show to players (new ones and old ones alike) that there's more to the game than meets the current quickplay-eye. That just boils down to another players are too dumb to find and connect to the server they want to fallacy. -- Dan ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Haven't you learned yet? Arguing with Dan on this is pointless and you are more likely to get hit by lightning than have him understand and see the facts. -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of 1nsane Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2014 1:39 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later Most of them are either too stupid or don't care enough to play the game long enough to explore for other things. I've talked with many new players (usually because they add me to sell stuff). A lot of them are not even aware that there's custom maps. Simply because server browser is too hard to use/slow and there's no such customization on quickplay. Even old time players prefer to use quickplay when they want to feel good so they can stomp on new players seen on valve servers. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:30 PM, dan needa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 14/10/2014 15:39, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek wrote: I think it's about effectively distributing more diversity to make a game less blunt and show to players (new ones and old ones alike) that there's more to the game than meets the current quickplay-eye. That just boils down to another players are too dumb to find and connect to the server they want to fallacy. -- Dan ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
I don't mind if he keep bumping the thread with these troll posts. A bump is a bump. Dan (needaxeo) has been trolling these mailing lists for the past 2 years. He doesn't want Valve to take any action because he gave up on his own community and wants to see everyone else fail. He thinks no one can host a better server and we are all trying to make a profit off dirt cheap servers like he did. And he doesn't even play the game anymore so he is just here trolling. Here is the proof when I outed him. https://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg75063.html https://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg75067.html He keeps repeating 2 arguments that have been debunked over and over again. - People are not too stupid or lazy to find the server they want to play. If people weren't stupid or lazy they would never have needed to make official servers default, because they would have been smart enough to add valve to their tags. Even Valve knows most people are stupid or lazy which is why every Steam chat box says Never tell your password to anyone and the URL you have clicked on is not an official Steam website. - Valve servers are objectively the best. Before this quickplay change, none of the official servers were even top 200 on Gametrackers. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Frank ad...@gamerscrib.net wrote: Haven't you learned yet? Arguing with Dan on this is pointless and you are more likely to get hit by lightning than have him understand and see the facts. -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of 1nsane Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2014 1:39 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later Most of them are either too stupid or don't care enough to play the game long enough to explore for other things. I've talked with many new players (usually because they add me to sell stuff). A lot of them are not even aware that there's custom maps. Simply because server browser is too hard to use/slow and there's no such customization on quickplay. Even old time players prefer to use quickplay when they want to feel good so they can stomp on new players seen on valve servers. On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 1:30 PM, dan needa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 14/10/2014 15:39, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek wrote: I think it's about effectively distributing more diversity to make a game less blunt and show to players (new ones and old ones alike) that there's more to the game than meets the current quickplay-eye. That just boils down to another players are too dumb to find and connect to the server they want to fallacy. -- Dan ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Well, server owners are also a very important part of the community, i'd subscribe that petition if it exists 14.10.2014 5:29 пользователь dan needa...@ntlworld.com написал: On 02/10/2014 17:30, Ahmed Kandeel wrote: How about creating an online petition which we all sign and then deliver it to Valve themselves. I think it would be better if we were proactive and found out precisely how many communities these changes actually have affected. Even if every server owner thinks their server should have players instead of Valve's (and why wouldn't they? It's not going to be a surprise to learn that) why would anyone but those server owners care? The game exists for the millions of players not for the server owners. -- Dan ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
I think it's about effectively distributing more diversity to make a game less blunt and show to players (new ones and old ones alike) that there's more to the game than meets the current quickplay-eye. On 14.10.2014 03:29, dan wrote: On 02/10/2014 17:30, Ahmed Kandeel wrote: How about creating an online petition which we all sign and then deliver it to Valve themselves. I think it would be better if we were proactive and found out precisely how many communities these changes actually have affected. Even if every server owner thinks their server should have players instead of Valve's (and why wouldn't they? It's not going to be a surprise to learn that) why would anyone but those server owners care? The game exists for the millions of players not for the server owners. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
On 02/10/2014 17:30, Ahmed Kandeel wrote: How about creating an online petition which we all sign and then deliver it to Valve themselves. I think it would be better if we were proactive and found out precisely how many communities these changes actually have affected. Even if every server owner thinks their server should have players instead of Valve's (and why wouldn't they? It's not going to be a surprise to learn that) why would anyone but those server owners care? The game exists for the millions of players not for the server owners. -- Dan ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
It isn't realistic to expect the TF team to change by itself when it has been like this for 8 months now. This is their full time job. And this is what has been done in those past 8 months. - Quickpick which no one uses. - Beta maps that are essentially locked to official servers. - No warning for the steamid change. - Two sourcemod breaking patches. - Censoring these threads when they reach a certain size. Once it reaches a certain size your email will get put into a moderation queue and an anti-community post usually end up being the last one allowed. This was done to stop rogue servers and people on SPUF who can't even be bothered to type valve in the tag box. This stopped being about ads when they already disabled quickplay players from seeing an html motd months before this happened. This is about throwing all community servers to the curb. Even if Valve fixed this right now, some of these servers are never coming back because people aren't going to spend another 2 years building up a player base again. Servers that have been painstakingly built up for 4-5 years of moderation, activities, and upkeep have started dying in these past 8 months. If they had any concern about community servers, they would have done more than this by now. The only thing we can do is keep talking about it until someone with more pull at Valve stumbles on these complaints and realizes whoever was in charge of this decision is single-handedly destroying the reputation they have with community hosts and modders as well as players who realize that there are community servers much better than official ones. On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:32 PM, Ahmed Kandeel astrida...@googlemail.com wrote: Yeah I agree with that. If you are gonna improve the system, do so alongside a major functionality or code shift. I can hope right? On 2 October 2014 18:26, Emil Larsson ail...@gmail.com wrote: My gut feel is that if they are plannning any major change to quickplay, it will be when the quickplay system is merged with the steamid server login system. When that happens is anyone's guess too. On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at wrote: So, I am just wondering what happened to this statement: At this time, we are keeping the default quickplay option to Valve servers. However, note that if a player wants to find a server with any of the supported modifications, then they must land on a community server, since Valve servers do not run with these settings. Posted by Fletcher Dunn on February 8, 2014. The option is still defaulting to Valve servers, even though it's supposed to be temporary and the initial cause for this measure, Pinion spamming servers, have long disappeared/been reduced. Is there any official change planned to this setting or will it be that way till eternity? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
In all likelyhood I doubt this will ever change now, unfortunately I believe this is a permanent decision regardless of whether the abusive servers (e.g. fake player counts) have disappeared or not. Besides, Pinion or any other HTML page can't be displayed on Quickplay connecting clients anyway, so I can't see how it can be abused still anyway. On 2 October 2014 14:06, Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at wrote: So, I am just wondering what happened to this statement: At this time, we are keeping the default quickplay option to Valve servers. However, note that if a player wants to find a server with any of the supported modifications, then they must land on a community server, since Valve servers do not run with these settings. Posted by Fletcher Dunn on February 8, 2014. The option is still defaulting to Valve servers, even though it's supposed to be temporary and the initial cause for this measure, Pinion spamming servers, have long disappeared/been reduced. Is there any official change planned to this setting or will it be that way till eternity? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
inb4 two weeks of spam. 2014-10-02 15:06 GMT+02:00 Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at: So, I am just wondering what happened to this statement: At this time, we are keeping the default quickplay option to Valve servers. However, note that if a player wants to find a server with any of the supported modifications, then they must land on a community server, since Valve servers do not run with these settings. Posted by Fletcher Dunn on February 8, 2014. The option is still defaulting to Valve servers, even though it's supposed to be temporary and the initial cause for this measure, Pinion spamming servers, have long disappeared/been reduced. Is there any official change planned to this setting or will it be that way till eternity? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
That is kinda ignorant of a response when the topic is very concerning to just about anyone that runs community servers. I agree that the quickplay changes should be done to reflect towards community servers now vs Valve mostly since as noted that you won't see a HTML MOTD when using Quickplay now anyway. Valve uses the community to make and create all these nice items they are putting out lately...letting everyone else do their work for them yet they won't recognize the help of the server side aspect of it and push traffic towards them vs leaving them on a deserted island of Valve (plain and bland) Servers. I'd love to see this change implemented for Halloween, hell I've been running the Asteroid map 24/7 and I can't even find it on the quickplay list if you go to select the map outside of Valve servers so what is the point of me testing it? I don't see the discussion as spam at all, just more of a wakeup call to Valve over a 6 year old game now supported mostly by the Community. -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of AnAkkk Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 9:09 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later inb4 two weeks of spam. 2014-10-02 15:06 GMT+02:00 Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at: So, I am just wondering what happened to this statement: At this time, we are keeping the default quickplay option to Valve servers. However, note that if a player wants to find a server with any of the supported modifications, then they must land on a community server, since Valve servers do not run with these settings. Posted by Fletcher Dunn on February 8, 2014. The option is still defaulting to Valve servers, even though it's supposed to be temporary and the initial cause for this measure, Pinion spamming servers, have long disappeared/been reduced. Is there any official change planned to this setting or will it be that way till eternity? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Every few weeks someone open a new thread about this (check archives), and I haven't seen any of them go anywhere for now. 2014-10-02 15:15 GMT+02:00 Frank ad...@gamerscrib.net: That is kinda ignorant of a response when the topic is very concerning to just about anyone that runs community servers. I agree that the quickplay changes should be done to reflect towards community servers now vs Valve mostly since as noted that you won't see a HTML MOTD when using Quickplay now anyway. Valve uses the community to make and create all these nice items they are putting out lately...letting everyone else do their work for them yet they won't recognize the help of the server side aspect of it and push traffic towards them vs leaving them on a deserted island of Valve (plain and bland) Servers. I'd love to see this change implemented for Halloween, hell I've been running the Asteroid map 24/7 and I can't even find it on the quickplay list if you go to select the map outside of Valve servers so what is the point of me testing it? I don't see the discussion as spam at all, just more of a wakeup call to Valve over a 6 year old game now supported mostly by the Community. -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of AnAkkk Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 9:09 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later inb4 two weeks of spam. 2014-10-02 15:06 GMT+02:00 Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at: So, I am just wondering what happened to this statement: At this time, we are keeping the default quickplay option to Valve servers. However, note that if a player wants to find a server with any of the supported modifications, then they must land on a community server, since Valve servers do not run with these settings. Posted by Fletcher Dunn on February 8, 2014. The option is still defaulting to Valve servers, even though it's supposed to be temporary and the initial cause for this measure, Pinion spamming servers, have long disappeared/been reduced. Is there any official change planned to this setting or will it be that way till eternity? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
I'd like to see someone at Valve reply to this subject and their future intentions. Till then besides the reply I sent and the few I've read thus far that is prob all I will pay attention to. The ball is in your court Valve - how about taking a shot. -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of AnAkkk Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 9:23 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later Every few weeks someone open a new thread about this (check archives), and I haven't seen any of them go anywhere for now. 2014-10-02 15:15 GMT+02:00 Frank ad...@gamerscrib.net: That is kinda ignorant of a response when the topic is very concerning to just about anyone that runs community servers. I agree that the quickplay changes should be done to reflect towards community servers now vs Valve mostly since as noted that you won't see a HTML MOTD when using Quickplay now anyway. Valve uses the community to make and create all these nice items they are putting out lately...letting everyone else do their work for them yet they won't recognize the help of the server side aspect of it and push traffic towards them vs leaving them on a deserted island of Valve (plain and bland) Servers. I'd love to see this change implemented for Halloween, hell I've been running the Asteroid map 24/7 and I can't even find it on the quickplay list if you go to select the map outside of Valve servers so what is the point of me testing it? I don't see the discussion as spam at all, just more of a wakeup call to Valve over a 6 year old game now supported mostly by the Community. -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of AnAkkk Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 9:09 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later inb4 two weeks of spam. 2014-10-02 15:06 GMT+02:00 Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at: So, I am just wondering what happened to this statement: At this time, we are keeping the default quickplay option to Valve servers. However, note that if a player wants to find a server with any of the supported modifications, then they must land on a community server, since Valve servers do not run with these settings. Posted by Fletcher Dunn on February 8, 2014. The option is still defaulting to Valve servers, even though it's supposed to be temporary and the initial cause for this measure, Pinion spamming servers, have long disappeared/been reduced. Is there any official change planned to this setting or will it be that way till eternity? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
When you people will realise these discussions about Quickplay go nowhere? Valve doesn't read these rants. Hell, most of us don't either. I'm surely muting this thread. Just bothered to reply in hope someone get that these kinds of arguments are pointless. _pilger On 2 October 2014 10:22, AnAkkk anakin...@gmail.com wrote: Every few weeks someone open a new thread about this (check archives), and I haven't seen any of them go anywhere for now. 2014-10-02 15:15 GMT+02:00 Frank ad...@gamerscrib.net: That is kinda ignorant of a response when the topic is very concerning to just about anyone that runs community servers. I agree that the quickplay changes should be done to reflect towards community servers now vs Valve mostly since as noted that you won't see a HTML MOTD when using Quickplay now anyway. Valve uses the community to make and create all these nice items they are putting out lately...letting everyone else do their work for them yet they won't recognize the help of the server side aspect of it and push traffic towards them vs leaving them on a deserted island of Valve (plain and bland) Servers. I'd love to see this change implemented for Halloween, hell I've been running the Asteroid map 24/7 and I can't even find it on the quickplay list if you go to select the map outside of Valve servers so what is the point of me testing it? I don't see the discussion as spam at all, just more of a wakeup call to Valve over a 6 year old game now supported mostly by the Community. -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of AnAkkk Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 9:09 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later inb4 two weeks of spam. 2014-10-02 15:06 GMT+02:00 Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at: So, I am just wondering what happened to this statement: At this time, we are keeping the default quickplay option to Valve servers. However, note that if a player wants to find a server with any of the supported modifications, then they must land on a community server, since Valve servers do not run with these settings. Posted by Fletcher Dunn on February 8, 2014. The option is still defaulting to Valve servers, even though it's supposed to be temporary and the initial cause for this measure, Pinion spamming servers, have long disappeared/been reduced. Is there any official change planned to this setting or will it be that way till eternity? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
On 02/10/2014 14:15, Frank wrote: Valve uses the community to make and create all these nice items they are putting out lately...letting everyone else do their work for them That was an easy thing for them to do though. Rubbish items are easy to dismiss and you pay the ones that get picked a percentage of money they actually earn in the store. So it's a bit disingenuous to suggest Valve lets everyone else do their work - they pay them pretty reasonably for it. You can't do that with servers. Firstly because it requires few skills to run one. There's no barrier to entry. There's barely even a financial barrier these days. If Valve rewarded server owners then people would all crawl out of the woodwork to run servers to get that reward. Who then decides who gets it? The people that connect to the server? Valve? Some arbitrary scoring system? We've all seen what you do when you decide you need to fight over the same few players, and it's not pretty and it does nothing other than hurt the game for players. The other side, as I've said many times, there really is nothing to distinguish a good server that an admin can do. You can create a bad server and you can say what a bad server is like - high ping etc etc etc, but there's nothing you can do to the config files that will make your server any better than anyone else's. If there's one thing valve have proven it's that you can run thousands of vanilla servers and fill them and they work fine. If anything with fewer problems than many communities have. Besides, you're not a community of nice people. Why would anyone want to help you do anything? If you can make money from TF2 servers today you're on a cushy number. You can't expect Valve to implement some get-rich-quick scheme for you. Even if you say Just want players, not a reward the argument remains the same. Why should you get players and not valve or someone else? What did you do that was so special? We didn't get a response from Valve on that statue of you that TF2 staff could bow humbly before it on their way into work to remind themselves of who put them where they are today. Maybe if you offered to pay for it? No wait, get the French to make one, they'll put it somewhere everyone can see it. That's worked for statues in the past :D -- Dan ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
How about creating an online petition which we all sign and then deliver it to Valve themselves. I think it would be better if we were proactive and found out precisely how many communities these changes actually have affected. I used to have a relatively active TF2 community with a server in the top 10%. I stopped hosting for a while due to real life commitments and tried to start again around February, initially as part of my old community. Our most popular servers were mostly stock with a few enhancements that the community loved. When I relaunched in February, a number of the original core members had moved onto games such as DOTA and thanks to QP changes that I was unaware of at the time, those of us that were left were scratching our heads as to why the server wasn't filling again. Initially we thought it might have been the branding of our old community, so we created a new one this June or so. I went to Reddit and found out about this, only to find it had bitten a number of communities as this mailing list shows. It has been a bitter struggle to get the server half full for even 3 hrs each night. At this rate I've decided to forget Quick Play and I'm going to be looking at creating a highly customised server that won't really reflect the true and vanilla nature of TF2 at all. It is futile trying to compete with Valve servers at this moment and very few want to sit on a server for 2 hours waiting for it to fill up. If there is no obvious difference between your server and a full Valve server, other than a reduced player count, guess which one they will choose. It is all well and good saying pre-existing communities aren't affected by this. But it really depends on their size. Even ones with 10K+ members seem to have difficult filling more than 2 servers, and definitely can't maintain that player number for the same amount of hours. All the new players go to Valve servers and eventually the old ones join them because it is fun for them to pubstomp and 24 player games are better than ones with 10. On 2 October 2014 14:59, dan needa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 02/10/2014 14:15, Frank wrote: Valve uses the community to make and create all these nice items they are putting out lately...letting everyone else do their work for them That was an easy thing for them to do though. Rubbish items are easy to dismiss and you pay the ones that get picked a percentage of money they actually earn in the store. So it's a bit disingenuous to suggest Valve lets everyone else do their work - they pay them pretty reasonably for it. You can't do that with servers. Firstly because it requires few skills to run one. There's no barrier to entry. There's barely even a financial barrier these days. If Valve rewarded server owners then people would all crawl out of the woodwork to run servers to get that reward. Who then decides who gets it? The people that connect to the server? Valve? Some arbitrary scoring system? We've all seen what you do when you decide you need to fight over the same few players, and it's not pretty and it does nothing other than hurt the game for players. The other side, as I've said many times, there really is nothing to distinguish a good server that an admin can do. You can create a bad server and you can say what a bad server is like - high ping etc etc etc, but there's nothing you can do to the config files that will make your server any better than anyone else's. If there's one thing valve have proven it's that you can run thousands of vanilla servers and fill them and they work fine. If anything with fewer problems than many communities have. Besides, you're not a community of nice people. Why would anyone want to help you do anything? If you can make money from TF2 servers today you're on a cushy number. You can't expect Valve to implement some get-rich-quick scheme for you. Even if you say Just want players, not a reward the argument remains the same. Why should you get players and not valve or someone else? What did you do that was so special? We didn't get a response from Valve on that statue of you that TF2 staff could bow humbly before it on their way into work to remind themselves of who put them where they are today. Maybe if you offered to pay for it? No wait, get the French to make one, they'll put it somewhere everyone can see it. That's worked for statues in the past :D -- Dan ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Like i said in the past, all my normal servers died. Only my custom servers are still running normally. Takes ages to fill up a server and it dies pretty quick too when it becomes later.. quickplay used to help out once the servers reached a certain point but that is gone now too. The one thing that is funny, i run a couple of mvm servers.. just for fun. Those are full almost all the time... but i rather want my normal server full instead of the mvm ones. I also know why the mvm servers are full all the time. Almost no community wants to run mvm since you can only play with a few people and you cant run ads on them either. Most boring map in the world in my eyes X3 Orange is pretty much full every day, go figure. 2014-10-02 18:30 GMT+02:00 Ahmed Kandeel astrida...@googlemail.com: How about creating an online petition which we all sign and then deliver it to Valve themselves. I think it would be better if we were proactive and found out precisely how many communities these changes actually have affected. I used to have a relatively active TF2 community with a server in the top 10%. I stopped hosting for a while due to real life commitments and tried to start again around February, initially as part of my old community. Our most popular servers were mostly stock with a few enhancements that the community loved. When I relaunched in February, a number of the original core members had moved onto games such as DOTA and thanks to QP changes that I was unaware of at the time, those of us that were left were scratching our heads as to why the server wasn't filling again. Initially we thought it might have been the branding of our old community, so we created a new one this June or so. I went to Reddit and found out about this, only to find it had bitten a number of communities as this mailing list shows. It has been a bitter struggle to get the server half full for even 3 hrs each night. At this rate I've decided to forget Quick Play and I'm going to be looking at creating a highly customised server that won't really reflect the true and vanilla nature of TF2 at all. It is futile trying to compete with Valve servers at this moment and very few want to sit on a server for 2 hours waiting for it to fill up. If there is no obvious difference between your server and a full Valve server, other than a reduced player count, guess which one they will choose. It is all well and good saying pre-existing communities aren't affected by this. But it really depends on their size. Even ones with 10K+ members seem to have difficult filling more than 2 servers, and definitely can't maintain that player number for the same amount of hours. All the new players go to Valve servers and eventually the old ones join them because it is fun for them to pubstomp and 24 player games are better than ones with 10. On 2 October 2014 14:59, dan needa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 02/10/2014 14:15, Frank wrote: Valve uses the community to make and create all these nice items they are putting out lately...letting everyone else do their work for them That was an easy thing for them to do though. Rubbish items are easy to dismiss and you pay the ones that get picked a percentage of money they actually earn in the store. So it's a bit disingenuous to suggest Valve lets everyone else do their work - they pay them pretty reasonably for it. You can't do that with servers. Firstly because it requires few skills to run one. There's no barrier to entry. There's barely even a financial barrier these days. If Valve rewarded server owners then people would all crawl out of the woodwork to run servers to get that reward. Who then decides who gets it? The people that connect to the server? Valve? Some arbitrary scoring system? We've all seen what you do when you decide you need to fight over the same few players, and it's not pretty and it does nothing other than hurt the game for players. The other side, as I've said many times, there really is nothing to distinguish a good server that an admin can do. You can create a bad server and you can say what a bad server is like - high ping etc etc etc, but there's nothing you can do to the config files that will make your server any better than anyone else's. If there's one thing valve have proven it's that you can run thousands of vanilla servers and fill them and they work fine. If anything with fewer problems than many communities have. Besides, you're not a community of nice people. Why would anyone want to help you do anything? If you can make money from TF2 servers today you're on a cushy number. You can't expect Valve to implement some get-rich-quick scheme for you. Even if you say Just want players, not a reward the argument remains the same. Why should you get players and not valve or someone else? What did you do that was so special? We didn't get a
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
My gut feel is that if they are plannning any major change to quickplay, it will be when the quickplay system is merged with the steamid server login system. When that happens is anyone's guess too. On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at wrote: So, I am just wondering what happened to this statement: At this time, we are keeping the default quickplay option to Valve servers. However, note that if a player wants to find a server with any of the supported modifications, then they must land on a community server, since Valve servers do not run with these settings. Posted by Fletcher Dunn on February 8, 2014. The option is still defaulting to Valve servers, even though it's supposed to be temporary and the initial cause for this measure, Pinion spamming servers, have long disappeared/been reduced. Is there any official change planned to this setting or will it be that way till eternity? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Temporary Quickplay changes ... 8 months later
Yeah I agree with that. If you are gonna improve the system, do so alongside a major functionality or code shift. I can hope right? On 2 October 2014 18:26, Emil Larsson ail...@gmail.com wrote: My gut feel is that if they are plannning any major change to quickplay, it will be when the quickplay system is merged with the steamid server login system. When that happens is anyone's guess too. On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at wrote: So, I am just wondering what happened to this statement: At this time, we are keeping the default quickplay option to Valve servers. However, note that if a player wants to find a server with any of the supported modifications, then they must land on a community server, since Valve servers do not run with these settings. Posted by Fletcher Dunn on February 8, 2014. The option is still defaulting to Valve servers, even though it's supposed to be temporary and the initial cause for this measure, Pinion spamming servers, have long disappeared/been reduced. Is there any official change planned to this setting or will it be that way till eternity? ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
