Re: [Hpr] @Ahuka; Libreoffice base?
Hi I also used to be an Access developer. When I came over the fence to Linux (2008) I looked for an equivalent tool and made the assumption that LibreOffice Base would fit the bill. I spent several months off and on attempting to reproduce the sort of user interfaces and functionality that are simple and commonplace in Access. The single most limiting factor is the form designer. Because a Base form is really a variant of a Writer document you have a lot less control over the general appearance and visual wizardry which you can employ. At best a Base application GUI looks like something from the very early days of Visual Basic. The programming language (a Basic variant) is powerful, but you often need a lot of code to achieve what may require one or two lines in Access. If you've ever created a GUI in Visual C++ and the same in VB/VBA then you will appreciate the scale of the difference. I found the native HSQL database to be very slow once the tables start getting large - at least in its LibreOffice implementation. You would be better off connecting to a different engine. MySQL gave pretty good performance, but then you are moving outside the core Access concept. Eventually I gave up on Base and looked around for something else. I discovered Gambas, which is a development environment using the Basic programming language. It's very close to VB in both concept and implementation - in fact better in many ways. This can connect to a SQLite database in 4 lines of code. You can use explicit coding to interface with the database but Gambas also provides data objects and bound controls. With SQLite as a single-file database, a Gambas + SQLite application is as close to an analog for Access as you will find on Linux, with much the same level of developer-friendly functionality as Access provides as well. The latest couple of versions of Access (post ribbon) have introduced massive amounts of bloat and become more cumbersome for the developer. Gambas avoids all that, making it a pleasure to use. In brief, Base is the one module of LibreOffice which falls well short of its Microsoft equivalent. It has its uses for simple tasks like mail-merge but as a development environment I would avoid it. In my view, for the Access developer migrating to Linux, Gambas + SQLite is the way to go. If you're still on Windows then you're best to bite the bullet and stick with Access. http://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html https://sqlite.org/ Just writing this is giving me ideas for an HPR episode.. Regards Nige (aka Beeza) ___ Hpr mailing list Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org
Re: [Hpr] @Ahuka; Libreoffice base?
Nigel, Useful info. I haven't written Access since about 1999 and at that time it was Access 97, which I think was the top of the tree, since which it sounds like it has become bloated and more difficult to use. I will give gambas a look, but of course it will need to be accessible. wysiwg drag-and-drop form designers are a dead-loss when you can't see. I assume, like most things, that it writes XML files to store it's form designs so even if it isn't too accessible on the design front it might be possible for me to hack the forms some other way. I think I am about to get involved with some development for which Access would be good, but cross-platform would be better as it is involving libreoffice calc. I have used sqlite very successfully in other projects so gambas and sqlite is sounding good. First I have to persuade a bunch of suits that 'Open Source' isn't synonymous with ritual murder and crimes against humanity. The last line of your post anticipated what I was thinking and which I will save that nice Mr Fallon the trouble of saying 'do a show, do a show'. Mike On 30/11/2014 11:31, Nigel Verity wrote: Hi I also used to be an Access developer. When I came over the fence to Linux (2008) I looked for an equivalent tool and made the assumption that LibreOffice Base would fit the bill. I spent several months off and on attempting to reproduce the sort of user interfaces and functionality that are simple and commonplace in Access. The single most limiting factor is the form designer. Because a Base form is really a variant of a Writer document you have a lot less control over the general appearance and visual wizardry which you can employ. At best a Base application GUI looks like something from the very early days of Visual Basic. The programming language (a Basic variant) is powerful, but you often need a lot of code to achieve what may require one or two lines in Access. If you've ever created a GUI in Visual C++ and the same in VB/VBA then you will appreciate the scale of the difference. I found the native HSQL database to be very slow once the tables start getting large - at least in its LibreOffice implementation. You would be better off connecting to a different engine. MySQL gave pretty good performance, but then you are moving outside the core Access concept. Eventually I gave up on Base and looked around for something else. I discovered Gambas, which is a development environment using the Basic programming language. It's very close to VB in both concept and implementation - in fact better in many ways. This can connect to a SQLite database in 4 lines of code. You can use explicit coding to interface with the database but Gambas also provides data objects and bound controls. With SQLite as a single-file database, a Gambas + SQLite application is as close to an analog for Access as you will find on Linux, with much the same level of developer-friendly functionality as Access provides as well. The latest couple of versions of Access (post ribbon) have introduced massive amounts of bloat and become more cumbersome for the developer. Gambas avoids all that, making it a pleasure to use. In brief, Base is the one module of LibreOffice which falls well short of its Microsoft equivalent. It has its uses for simple tasks like mail-merge but as a development environment I would avoid it. In my view, for the Access developer migrating to Linux, Gambas + SQLite is the way to go. If you're still on Windows then you're best to bite the bullet and stick with Access. http://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html https://sqlite.org/ Just writing this is giving me ideas for an HPR episode.. Regards Nige (aka Beeza) ___ Hpr mailing list Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org -- Michael A. Ray Analyst/Programmer Witley, Surrey, South-east UK Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla (It's a long way by the rules, but short and efficient with examples) Interested in accessibility on the Raspberry Pi? Visit: http://www.raspberryvi.org/ From where you can join our mailing list for visually-impaired Pi hackers ___ Hpr mailing list Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org
Re: [Hpr] @Ahuka; Libreoffice base?
I want to encourage you to record that episode. OR maybe several! Regards, On 11/30/2014 6:31 AM, Nigel Verity wrote: Hi I also used to be an Access developer. When I came over the fence to Linux (2008) I looked for an equivalent tool and made the assumption that LibreOffice Base would fit the bill. I spent several months off and on attempting to reproduce the sort of user interfaces and functionality that are simple and commonplace in Access. The single most limiting factor is the form designer. Because a Base form is really a variant of a Writer document you have a lot less control over the general appearance and visual wizardry which you can employ. At best a Base application GUI looks like something from the very early days of Visual Basic. The programming language (a Basic variant) is powerful, but you often need a lot of code to achieve what may require one or two lines in Access. If you've ever created a GUI in Visual C++ and the same in VB/VBA then you will appreciate the scale of the difference. I found the native HSQL database to be very slow once the tables start getting large - at least in its LibreOffice implementation. You would be better off connecting to a different engine. MySQL gave pretty good performance, but then you are moving outside the core Access concept. Eventually I gave up on Base and looked around for something else. I discovered Gambas, which is a development environment using the Basic programming language. It's very close to VB in both concept and implementation - in fact better in many ways. This can connect to a SQLite database in 4 lines of code. You can use explicit coding to interface with the database but Gambas also provides data objects and bound controls. With SQLite as a single-file database, a Gambas + SQLite application is as close to an analog for Access as you will find on Linux, with much the same level of developer-friendly functionality as Access provides as well. The latest couple of versions of Access (post ribbon) have introduced massive amounts of bloat and become more cumbersome for the developer. Gambas avoids all that, making it a pleasure to use. In brief, Base is the one module of LibreOffice which falls well short of its Microsoft equivalent. It has its uses for simple tasks like mail-merge but as a development environment I would avoid it. In my view, for the Access developer migrating to Linux, Gambas + SQLite is the way to go. If you're still on Windows then you're best to bite the bullet and stick with Access. http://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html https://sqlite.org/ Just writing this is giving me ideas for an HPR episode.. Regards Nige (aka Beeza) ___ Hpr mailing list Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org -- Kevin B. O'Brien zwil...@zwilnik.com http://google.me/+kevinobrien There's a difference between tempting fate and giving it a lap dance. ___ Hpr mailing list Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org
Re: [Hpr] @Ahuka; Libreoffice base?
Charles, I'd be curious to see what you refer to as your 'parts' database. I'm currently in the process of setting up my brother-in-law with a Panasonic ToughBook running Trisquel, or possibly Ubuntu. He works in machine maintenance on a members-only golf-course here in the UK and wants a solution for managing stock levels of machine parts and spares. Money is tight and the suits in the business don't want to spend any money, and would probably frown upon Open Source so we are going down the 'personal laptop' route. Mike On 30/11/2014 17:34, Charles Thayer wrote: Re-opened the Base/Writer project I did for my brother-in-law's parts database. I stepped into the sweet spot of toy (or private) applications that you can do with Base. If the number of users or the number of records begins to scale up, I run into the problems that everyone else encountered. The main difference is that I did my code in Python, which was a different animal than Basic-like languages such as Gambas. If I ever get a short vacation from caring for grandchildren and elderly in-laws, I could look at an accessible database solution. But unless you are very young, you may not live to see it. Charles in NJ Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message From: Mike Ray m...@raspberryvi.org Date: 11/30/2014 7:42 AM (GMT-05:00) To: hpr@hackerpublicradio.org Subject: Re: [Hpr] @Ahuka; Libreoffice base? Nigel, Useful info. I haven't written Access since about 1999 and at that time it was Access 97, which I think was the top of the tree, since which it sounds like it has become bloated and more difficult to use. I will give gambas a look, but of course it will need to be accessible. wysiwg drag-and-drop form designers are a dead-loss when you can't see. I assume, like most things, that it writes XML files to store it's form designs so even if it isn't too accessible on the design front it might be possible for me to hack the forms some other way. I think I am about to get involved with some development for which Access would be good, but cross-platform would be better as it is involving libreoffice calc. I have used sqlite very successfully in other projects so gambas and sqlite is sounding good. First I have to persuade a bunch of suits that 'Open Source' isn't synonymous with ritual murder and crimes against humanity. The last line of your post anticipated what I was thinking and which I will save that nice Mr Fallon the trouble of saying 'do a show, do a show'. Mike On 30/11/2014 11:31, Nigel Verity wrote: Hi I also used to be an Access developer. When I came over the fence to Linux (2008) I looked for an equivalent tool and made the assumption that LibreOffice Base would fit the bill. I spent several months off and on attempting to reproduce the sort of user interfaces and functionality that are simple and commonplace in Access. The single most limiting factor is the form designer. Because a Base form is really a variant of a Writer document you have a lot less control over the general appearance and visual wizardry which you can employ. At best a Base application GUI looks like something from the very early days of Visual Basic. The programming language (a Basic variant) is powerful, but you often need a lot of code to achieve what may require one or two lines in Access. If you've ever created a GUI in Visual C++ and the same in VB/VBA then you will appreciate the scale of the difference. I found the native HSQL database to be very slow once the tables start getting large - at least in its LibreOffice implementation. You would be better off connecting to a different engine. MySQL gave pretty good performance, but then you are moving outside the core Access concept. Eventually I gave up on Base and looked around for something else. I discovered Gambas, which is a development environment using the Basic programming language. It's very close to VB in both concept and implementation - in fact better in many ways. This can connect to a SQLite database in 4 lines of code. You can use explicit coding to interface with the database but Gambas also provides data objects and bound controls. With SQLite as a single-file database, a Gambas + SQLite application is as close to an analog for Access as you will find on Linux, with much the same level of developer-friendly functionality as Access provides as well. The latest couple of versions of Access (post ribbon) have introduced massive amounts of bloat and become more cumbersome for the developer. Gambas avoids all that, making it a pleasure to use. In brief, Base is the one module of LibreOffice which falls well short of its Microsoft equivalent. It has its uses for simple tasks like mail-merge but as a development environment I would avoid it. In my view, for the Access developer migrating
Re: [Hpr] @Ahuka; Libreoffice base?
Mike This is disappointing as Gambas is a great tool. I think it just goes to demonstrate how little attention we, who are fortunate enough to have no accessibility issues, pay to the subject. Perhaps there is a need for an HPR episode here. I've heard a number of podcasts addressing the issue of accessibility but I've yet to hear one which takes the listener down into the nitty gritty, explaining how what would seem to be insurmountable problems are solved. We've probably all heard of Orca and other screen readers, but it must be a total mystery to most of us how anybody with a visual impairment can make sense of websites consisting of multiple columns and panels, with video and adverts thrown into the mix. Gambas forms are defined in plain text, as a very simple human-readable hierarchy of control definitions. Designing a form using just a text editor should not be at all difficult. However, you cannot build those forms into a project and compile it into a Gambas executable without using the IDE. If that's no good from an accessibility standpoint, then it's looks like being something of a showstopper. However, one of the claims of Gambas is that the IDE is itself created using Gambas. You can base your application on QT or GTK. It just requires the selection of a couple of different components in the project definition. That being the case it should be possible to regenerate the IDE using GTK as a base. I'll explore this and get back to you in due course. Regards Nige Message: 2 Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 12:59:55 + From: Mike Ray m...@raspberryvi.org To: hpr@hackerpublicradio.org Subject: [Hpr] Gambas, was: @Ahuka; Libreoffice base? Message-ID: 547b14cb.7030...@raspberryvi.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Nigel, I took a look at the gambas web-site and read the intro. Sounds good but I was dismayed to read that the IDE(?) is currently written using the Qt toolkit, which is notoriously bad for accessibility. Are you able to confirm that forms are stored as some kind of text, perhaps XML and thence hackable from a text-editor? Mike ___ Hpr mailing list Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org
Re: [Hpr] @Ahuka; Libreoffice base?
I'd imagine that Ahuka will get to Base. As a preview, I can assure you that you can attach tables and make forms. It might be a little disorienting to create and maintain forms in Libreoffice at first, though. Base does not have a self-contained facility for editing forms. You do it with Writer. A few years back, I set up a form to interface with a database of electronics parts. It needed a small amount of code to open a browser window to look up the vendor website based on a URL stored as a Text field in the Parts record. In Access, you can store links as a data type, and just click the link in a table view. Libreoffice doesn't support this, but I had it up and running in a weekend. So the Base series should be interesting and fun. Charles in NJ Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message From: Mike Ray m...@raspberryvi.org Date: 11/28/2014 7:50 PM (GMT-05:00) To: hpr@hackerpublicradio.org Subject: [Hpr] @Ahuka; Libreoffice base? Hello, I wonder if Kevin is intending to cover Libreoffice base in any shows. I was an MS Access programmer in a former life, pre 2k and I'm curious to know whether Libreoffice Base can be made to do similar stuff. In particular it would be great if Base could: 1) Include 'attached' tables in the same way as Access allowed (still does?) ODBC tables. 2) Can create stand-alone applications that can be deployed to the WAN. 3) Can create complex forms which fit the usual CRUD (create/review/update/delete) functions in any DB application, including good old one-to-many forms etc. I used to create client-server apps in Access which were deployed to regional offices across the UK. Mike -- Michael A. Ray Analyst/Programmer Witley, Surrey, South-east UK Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla (It's a long way by the rules, but short and efficient with examples) Interested in accessibility on the Raspberry Pi? Visit: http://www.raspberryvi.org/ From where you can join our mailing list for visually-impaired Pi hackers ___ Hpr mailing list Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org ___ Hpr mailing list Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org
Re: [Hpr] @Ahuka; Libreoffice base?
I certainly plan to do something on Base, but I will freely admit that database programming is my weakest area. But I will do the best I can do. Right now I have just started writing the Impress tutorials. Regards, On 11/29/2014 02:06 PM, Charles Thayer wrote: I'd imagine that Ahuka will get to Base. As a preview, I can assure you that you can attach tables and make forms. It might be a little disorienting to create and maintain forms in Libreoffice at first, though. Base does not have a self-contained facility for editing forms. You do it with Writer. A few years back, I set up a form to interface with a database of electronics parts. It needed a small amount of code to open a browser window to look up the vendor website based on a URL stored as a Text field in the Parts record. In Access, you can store links as a data type, and just click the link in a table view. Libreoffice doesn't support this, but I had it up and running in a weekend. So the Base series should be interesting and fun. Charles in NJ Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message From: Mike Ray m...@raspberryvi.org Date: 11/28/2014 7:50 PM (GMT-05:00) To: hpr@hackerpublicradio.org Subject: [Hpr] @Ahuka; Libreoffice base? Hello, I wonder if Kevin is intending to cover Libreoffice base in any shows. I was an MS Access programmer in a former life, pre 2k and I'm curious to know whether Libreoffice Base can be made to do similar stuff. In particular it would be great if Base could: 1) Include 'attached' tables in the same way as Access allowed (still does?) ODBC tables. 2) Can create stand-alone applications that can be deployed to the WAN. 3) Can create complex forms which fit the usual CRUD (create/review/update/delete) functions in any DB application, including good old one-to-many forms etc. I used to create client-server apps in Access which were deployed to regional offices across the UK. Mike ___ Hpr mailing list Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org -- Kevin B. O'Brien zwil...@zwilnik.com http://google.me/+kevinobrien There's a difference between tempting fate and giving it a lap dance. ___ Hpr mailing list Hpr@hackerpublicradio.org http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org
