Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 21 Apr 2010 07:41:41 -0700, l...@garlic.com (Anne Lynn Wheeler) wrote: some of this view reflects the culture of the executives ... they are brought in to plunder the company and then they move on to plunder the next company. Certainly. This is how politicians work too - spend money now and let someone else pay. Trouble is, when the executives don't plan for the long term, neither do the proles. Everything is done with the resume in mind, show the short term cost savings, meeting of (redefined) targets, and damn the future. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 23 Apr 2010 05:02:51 -0700, jch...@ussco.com (Chase, John) wrote: [ snip ] Please...its much easier for them to blame their problems on COBOL than to admit that they have done a crappy job managing their legacy assets. At each step in maintenance it is always easier to hack something together rather than to clean things up with new changes and requirements, but eventually there is a price to pay. As I say too frequently here, The problem with 'quick and dirty' is that if it works, it will stay 'dirty'. Quick and dirty doesn't matter for one time jobs.But moving in the direction of integrated OO environments, the costs of cleaning up go up tremendously. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 22 Apr 2010 05:21:09 -0700, john.mck...@healthmarkets.com (McKown, John) wrote: COBOL can be object oriented as well. And it does interoperate with Java, at least with z/OS Enterprise COBOL (tho not as well as some would like).. It's just that people don't seem too interested in upgrading their COBOL skills into the new facilities. An example here is some COBOL which does XML to interchange data with a Windows system. It was written by one of our more rogue programmers (who was let go in a recent downsizing). It works well. Other programmers don't like it because they are unfamiliar with and dislike XML. Not just that.While most mainframe programmers aren't interested in upgrading their skills into OO, it is also true that most mainframe shops don't want one programmer sticking OO CoBOL into their mainframe job flow. (Even if someone spends the money to get an OO CoBOL compiler on their PC to learn how to do it, then tries to figure out how to implement it at work). And non-mainframe programmers don't see that OO CoBOL has any compelling advantages over other OO tools. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 22 Apr 2010 06:51:01 -0700, thomas.kel...@commercebank.com (Kelman, Tom) wrote: It is true that back in the good old days companies would have internal training to teach programming skills. In those days, companies expected a good return on their investment as a much higher percentage of their IS staff were expected to stick around for their careers.But the executives don't stick around and don't expect their top programmers to stick around either. Why spend money to train workers for their competitors? The problem is much bigger than IS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 24 Apr 2010 07:07:19 -0700, m...@cartagena.com (Mike Baldwin) wrote: IBM calls REXX a language: ...z/OS TSO/E REXX Interpreter (hereafter referred to as the interpreter or language processor) and the REstructured eXtended eXecutor (called REXX) language. Together, the language processor and the REXX language are known as TSO/E REXX. And what does the L stand for in JCL? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Quick and dirty doesn't matter for one time jobs. Unfortunately, one-timers become old-timers. If it works, it has a high potential of becoming some sort of production! - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 10:03 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem On 24 Apr 2010 07:07:19 -0700, m...@cartagena.com (Mike Baldwin) wrote: IBM calls REXX a language: ...z/OS TSO/E REXX(tm) Interpreter (hereafter referred to as the interpreter or language processor) and the REstructured eXtended eXecutor (called REXX) language. Together, the language processor and the REXX language are known as TSO/E REXX. And what does the L stand for in JCL? laborious? lachrymous( definition 2 : tending to cause tears) lackluster -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 08:28:29 -0700 (PDT), StevePratt steve_pr...@isp.state.il.us wrote: I think the point here is that just because some tacks the word language onto a description is different than the *true* meaning of defining a programming language. Which is why I added the JCL comment, as few of us would call it a language. But are we right? I don't know, words mean what people say they mean.I tend to object to people who use the term database as a base for information - including libraries. That's because my business has a jargon with a more precise meaning that is more useful to me. Language is also a jargon word, which we use in a different way than we find in most dictionaries. Where can we find a dictionary that shows the meaning that would include the languages we want to include, but exclude those that others want to include? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Amen - I own some of those poc. just finished moving some poc in ztrieve to Endevor from priv lib since they were being used in production. The next time they do title changes here I think I may lobby for System janitor. IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu wrote on 04/26/2010 11:12:09 AM: From: Ted MacNEIL eamacn...@yahoo.ca To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Date: 04/26/2010 11:12 AM Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Quick and dirty doesn't matter for one time jobs. Unfortunately, one-timers become old-timers. If it works, it has a high potential of becoming some sort of production! - The information contained in this communication (including any attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying, or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. Thank you -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Hi Ed, On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 22:06:36 -0700, Ed Gould ps2...@yahoo.com wrote: My knowledge of IBM's products and therefore IBM's (apparent) definition is that a language has to be compiled and run through the linkage editor. -- IBM calls REXX a language: ...z/OS TSO/E REXX Interpreter (hereafter referred to as the interpreter or language processor) and the REstructured eXtended eXecutor (called REXX) language. Together, the language processor and the REXX language are known as TSO/E REXX. Regards, Mike Baldwin Cartagena Software Ltd. Markham, Ontario, Canada http://www.cartagena.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
And for all those schools in USA and CANADA not teaching future employee's COBOL - there are plenty in INDIA, CHINA and PHILIPPINES which are teaching COBOL. Regards Bruce Hewson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [On Behalf Of Kirk Wolf [ snip ] Please...its much easier for them to blame their problems on COBOL than to admit that they have done a crappy job managing their legacy assets. At each step in maintenance it is always easier to hack something together rather than to clean things up with new changes and requirements, but eventually there is a price to pay. As I say too frequently here, The problem with 'quick and dirty' is that if it works, it will stay 'dirty'. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of J R He's actually a she -- Sheila Fraser. Not that there's anything wrong with that! Just goes to show that this kind of mind pollution is gender-agnostic. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
There is at least one college that is continuing mainframe education, please see http://www.mainframezone.com/it-management/historic-marist-college-embra ces-mainframes-future. For one, I look forward to using my dead mainframe skills to make my retirement a bit easier. Maybe then I will again be able to do the stuff I have always enjoyed, like COBOL programming (or Assembler, Easytrieve, just plain JCL and a myriad of other coding languages). ...Bob -Original Message- From: Hunkeler Peter (KIUP 4) [mailto:peter.hunke...@credit-suisse.com] Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 2:24 AM Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem This is not only a problem of universites not teaching its students COBOL, PL/I, IBM Mainframes, etc. It is also a home made problem of the companies requiring this kind of skills. Many of them had their own IT school with which they took care of educating employees in the skills they need for that company. They also sent students to classromm courses in matters not worth teaching by themselves. At least in Switzerland, this has vanished into thin air during the last decade or so. And now intelligent management all over a sudden realizes that they are heading into the problem of retiring employees and complains that they can't find new employees with the demanded skills. It is sure nice to have IT architects that look ahead and preach JAVA, but neglecting that there are legacy systems which for many companies are its heart, is simply not in the interest of those companies. This leads back to the universities. Can you expect someone to preach a matter they don't now abaout? Rarely, probably. -- Peter Hunkeler CREDIT SUISSE AG -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 05:47:27 -0500, Jim Elliott, IBM jim_elli...@ca.ibm.com wrote: The specific department involved here regarding DMSII (Human Resources Development Canada, HRDC) is running an older UNISYS environment. Funny, while working on a report today (for the government), I ran across a request to run our software on a UNISYS MCP system, the request coming from the national capital. I wonder...! Regards, Mike Baldwin Cartagena Software Limited Markham, Ontario, Canada http://www.cartagena.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
-SNIP- DYL280 has a VERY strong set of procedural capabilities including bit manipulation, the ability to use COBOL record descriptions, SORT verb, etc. I have used it to reformat SMF 30 records and play with directory blocks. It can be more powerful than COBOL for many things besides report writing. -Ed's Reply -- Its been a while since I have looked at either language (I still not sure you can call either one a language). Having said that my sense is that a computer language needs to be defined a lot better so anyone (including me) has their own idea as to what a language really is. My knowledge of IBM's products and therefore IBM's (apparent) definition is that a language has to be compiled and run through the linkage editor. The exception to this was (IIRC) APL. VSBASIC was did not really qualify either. There may be a few older 360 type TSO products that may not have qualified either. Please chime in if you know of any reasonably recent IBM products that were similar to easytrev or DYL. Of course if you do not support the idea that IBM's definitions are (were) qualified as languages then we have to step back and open the world to the discussion. I cannot do so since almost all of my knowledge is IBM centric. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
This is not only a problem of universites not teaching its students COBOL, PL/I, IBM Mainframes, etc. It is also a home made problem of the companies requiring this kind of skills. Many of them had their own IT school with which they took care of educating employees in the skills they need for that company. They also sent students to classromm courses in matters not worth teaching by themselves. At least in Switzerland, this has vanished into thin air during the last decade or so. And now intelligent management all over a sudden realizes that they are heading into the problem of retiring employees and complains that they can't find new employees with the demanded skills. It is sure nice to have IT architects that look ahead and preach JAVA, but neglecting that there are legacy systems which for many companies are its heart, is simply not in the interest of those companies. This leads back to the universities. Can you expect someone to preach a matter they don't now abaout? Rarely, probably. -- Peter Hunkeler CREDIT SUISSE AG -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:55:50 -0600, Mark Post mp...@novell.com wrote: It was actually an Oracle server consolidation onto a brand-new z9BC, followed by installation of even more virtual Oracle servers. Paid for itself in less than a year. Actually it was on a five IFL z9 EC (not BC). And in any case, that was the Quebec Government, not the Federal Government which was the subject of the Auditor General report. Jim -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:35:00 -0500, Kelman, Tom thomas.kel...@commercebank.com wrote: John, That WikiPedia article also states that DMSII was created by Burroughs (later UniSys) as a database to run on its processors. Does that mean they are still running UniSys machines. If so they have problems over and above COBOL not being taught. It sounds like a typical government non-upgrade environment. Now they are caught in the dark ages and instead of upgrading to modern DB2 and COBOL on proper processors they are probably going to throw out the baby with the bath water and get OMG - WINDOWS. Tom Kelman Tom: The report was misleading (confusing) in many ways in that it talked about all of the government. The specific department involved here regarding DMSII (Human Resources Development Canada, HRDC) is running an older UNISYS environment. Much of the Canadian Government IT environment is on very current technology (and yes that includes lots of IBM System z). However, the canard about COBOL is one that always bothers me. A year or two ago the Toronto Star had an article about COBOL being a deal language. COBOL could paraphrase Mark Twain, The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated.. IMHO, there is probably more business server application code written in COBOL than any other language still, and I see no reason for that to change. Jim -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 05:47:27 -0500, Jim Elliott, IBM jim_elli...@ca.ibm.com wrote: However, the canard about COBOL is one that always bothers me. A year or two ago the Toronto Star had an article about COBOL being a deal language. COBOL could paraphrase Mark Twain, The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated.. IMHO, there is probably more business server application code written in COBOL than any other language still, and I see no reason for that to change. Jim Oops, typo above. I meant to say DEAD language not deal language. Jim -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Ford Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:14 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Its interesting now people in various organizations are in a 4 star panic when the word Cobol comes up. Everyone is so into JAVA and the other object languages. The other interesting fact is how many kids (20-30 yr olds) want to learn Assembler or Cobol ...they go where the money is thats JAVAm C#, C++, etc. I dont fault them, just think its a sign of changes going on. Scott J Ford COBOL can be object oriented as well. And it does interoperate with Java, at least with z/OS Enterprise COBOL (tho not as well as some would like).. It's just that people don't seem too interested in upgrading their COBOL skills into the new facilities. An example here is some COBOL which does XML to interchange data with a Windows system. It was written by one of our more rogue programmers (who was let go in a recent downsizing). It works well. Other programmers don't like it because they are unfamiliar with and dislike XML. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets® 9151 Boulevard 26 . N. Richland Hills . TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone . (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com . www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets® is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company®, Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
I havent used the Cobol in the sense of Objects yet. I am some John: I havent used the Cobol in the sense of Objects yet. I am somewhat familar with XML, etc. I guess IMHO I was fortunate to have learned Assembler first and then Cobol. I worked in A CICS macro shop for a bunch of years in the early days, CICS 1.4 , we have VSE runnng CICS and VM. At that time we VMers were kinda rogue. I was younger and loved VM, still do. I dont feel there is anything wrong with rogue ideas , as long as the the ideas that are put into practice can be supported. Some of the newer languages are really good and hve no issue with them. But learning them sometimes is the age old problem, when your buried with work. Scott J Ford From: McKown, John john.mck...@healthmarkets.com To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Sent: Thu, April 22, 2010 8:20:05 AM Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Ford Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:14 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Its interesting now people in various organizations are in a 4 star panic when the word Cobol comes up. Everyone is so into JAVA and the other object languages. The other interesting fact is how many kids (20-30 yr olds) want to learn Assembler or Cobol ...they go where the money is thats JAVAm C#, C++, etc. I dont fault them, just think its a sign of changes going on. Scott J Ford COBOL can be object oriented as well. And it does interoperate with Java, at least with z/OS Enterprise COBOL (tho not as well as some would like).. It's just that people don't seem too interested in upgrading their COBOL skills into the new facilities. An example here is some COBOL which does XML to interchange data with a Windows system. It was written by one of our more rogue programmers (who was let go in a recent downsizing). It works well. Other programmers don't like it because they are unfamiliar with and dislike XML. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets® 9151 Boulevard 26 . N. Richland Hills . TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone . (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com . www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets® is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company®, Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
It is true that back in the good old days companies would have internal training to teach programming skills. My first job after college and the military was with a bank as an application programmer. Back then they coded everything in IBM Assembler because it was more efficient than COBOL. Up until then I had coded COBOL, Fortran, and ALGOL (my college had a Burroughs B5500 for student work). I hadn't done anything in assembler so it was very new to me. The company had an excellent self-paced course to train in the basics of assembler. I picked up on it quickly. Besides that there were several people there who made great mentors in the topic. There was one in particular who is still a good friend of mine. There is a problem today that companies complain about not having the skills available in areas like COBOL, but they are not willing to spend the money or time to train their employees in those skills. Tom Kelman Enterprise Capacity Planner Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Hunkeler Peter (KIUP 4) Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 1:24 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem This is not only a problem of universites not teaching its students COBOL, PL/I, IBM Mainframes, etc. It is also a home made problem of the companies requiring this kind of skills. Many of them had their own IT school with which they took care of educating employees in the skills they need for that company. They also sent students to classromm courses in matters not worth teaching by themselves. At least in Switzerland, this has vanished into thin air during the last decade or so. And now intelligent management all over a sudden realizes that they are heading into the problem of retiring employees and complains that they can't find new employees with the demanded skills. It is sure nice to have IT architects that look ahead and preach JAVA, but neglecting that there are legacy systems which for many companies are its heart, is simply not in the interest of those companies. This leads back to the universities. Can you expect someone to preach a matter they don't now abaout? Rarely, probably. -- Peter Hunkeler CREDIT SUISSE AG -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html * If you wish to communicate securely with Commerce Bank and its affiliates, you must log into your account under Online Services at http://www.commercebank.com or use the Commerce Bank Secure Email Message Center at https://securemail.commercebank.com NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential. The information is exclusively for the use of the individual or entity intended as the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, printing, reviewing, retention, disclosure, distribution or forwarding of the message or any attached file is not authorized and is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic mail message in error, please advise the sender by reply electronic mail immediately and permanently delete the original transmission, any attachments and any copies of this message from your computer system. * -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Yea, a lot of this has to do with the way the media reports it. Just like the Mainframe is Dead situation of several years ago, they feel the if something new comes along - new hardware, new programming language - the old has to go. There is no understanding that each has a place and a purpose. Also, even when it is shown to not be dead they don't change their tune. Tom Kelman Enterprise Capacity Planner Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Elliott, IBM Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 5:47 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:35:00 -0500, Kelman, Tom thomas.kel...@commercebank.com wrote: John, That WikiPedia article also states that DMSII was created by Burroughs (later UniSys) as a database to run on its processors. Does that mean they are still running UniSys machines. If so they have problems over and above COBOL not being taught. It sounds like a typical government non-upgrade environment. Now they are caught in the dark ages and instead of upgrading to modern DB2 and COBOL on proper processors they are probably going to throw out the baby with the bath water and get OMG - WINDOWS. Tom Kelman Tom: The report was misleading (confusing) in many ways in that it talked about all of the government. The specific department involved here regarding DMSII (Human Resources Development Canada, HRDC) is running an older UNISYS environment. Much of the Canadian Government IT environment is on very current technology (and yes that includes lots of IBM System z). However, the canard about COBOL is one that always bothers me. A year or two ago the Toronto Star had an article about COBOL being a deal language. COBOL could paraphrase Mark Twain, The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated.. IMHO, there is probably more business server application code written in COBOL than any other language still, and I see no reason for that to change. Jim -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html * If you wish to communicate securely with Commerce Bank and its affiliates, you must log into your account under Online Services at http://www.commercebank.com or use the Commerce Bank Secure Email Message Center at https://securemail.commercebank.com NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential. The information is exclusively for the use of the individual or entity intended as the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, printing, reviewing, retention, disclosure, distribution or forwarding of the message or any attached file is not authorized and is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic mail message in error, please advise the sender by reply electronic mail immediately and permanently delete the original transmission, any attachments and any copies of this message from your computer system. * -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
45+ years ago when I started playing around with this stuff, even then there were too many programming languages for it to be practical for students to take formal courses to learn all the major programming languages, and since then languages and their dialects have continued to change and expand. Students then were given basic understanding of some macro assembler language and at least one procedural oriented language and then expected to become fluent enough in what was available to complete other assignments that depended on programming skills. Language Reference manuals were your friend. Once you understood the basics, you could pick up a new assembler or higher-level language in few days from the manuals, and become reasonably proficient from examples and experience after a few weeks of use. I think the only semi-formal class I had in the early days was a week Introduction to 1410 Autocoder one summer. By the time I would have taken an undergraduate Fortran class, I already knew the material and became a lab instructor. In graduate school at Purdue, I was expected to already know how to use their computers, which had a different architecture and different dialect of Fortran than I had previously used. After reading the available Assembler and IBSYS manuals, I wrote a IBM 7094 macro-assembler implementation of a bootstrap compiler for a simple language that generated 7094 object decks, and later used reference manuals to become proficient in writing CDC 6000 Assembler code for other projects. One of the most useful courses at Purdue was a survey course that introduced a number of different programming languages, including PL/I, COBOL, SNOBOL, LISP, etc. - enough to give a flavor of the context in which a language would be useful with no attempt to teach proficiency in any language. Considering how many different programming languages I've had to deal with over the course of my career, one of the most useful skills I acquired in school was the ability to learn new programming languages, not the ability to program in some specific language. The most critical programming skills for having a long-term career in this business are the ability to think logically, to understand how to convert requirements into algorithms, and to understand the nature of the process of mapping algorithms to available language features. If you have that, you can quickly learn how to be proficient in some specific implementation language. If you lack those skills, you will be a bad programmer no matter what the language. JC Ewing On 04/21/2010 12:21 PM, Ted MacNEIL wrote: Who cares whether the universities are requiring COBOL or not? In co-op programmes, it does matter if you are preparing for the work force, so it (IMO) is important. There are plenty of places and ways to learn it ... But, if I'm already enrolled in a Computer Science stream, why should I have to spend extra (time or money) to learn it, elsewhere? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but this sounds suspiciously like the argument:Universities are not here to prepare you for the work place; rather to teach you how to learn. If that's the case, I disagree. I enrolled in the University of Waterloo to prepare myself for a career in computers. Many, along with UOW, have co-op programes. All have employment counselling programmes to help place you post-graduation. If that isn't preparing for the workplace, what is? To me, not teaching COBOL, is like a future surgeon not being taught anatomy. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! ... -- Joel C. Ewing, Fort Smith, ARjremoveccapsew...@acm.org -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Considering how many different programming languages I've had to deal with over the course of my career, one of the most useful skills I acquired in school was the ability to learn new programming languages, not the ability to program in some specific language. I don't disagree with that concept, but in the case of the rookie (or co-op) programmer, why not teach them COBOL while you're teaching them programming skills. They have to learn some language, and COBOL is still a major need in the IT working world. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 21 Apr 2010 08:22:23 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: Who cares whether the universities are requiring COBOL or not? There are plenty of places and ways to learn it, and any Programmer worth employing should be able to pick it up relatively easy. They may not be as good as a seasoned programmer, but you can't expect a college graduate to perform at the same level as someone with work experience, no matter the language. Universities are for teaching conceptual processes, how to learn and grasp the fundamentals of how programming works, not how to use a specific language, that's what a trade school, or specific class is for. One of the interesting problems is that COBOL differs significantly in concept from the FORTRAN/Algol/C/C++ languages in that it is fixed length field and array oriented with differentiation between decimal and binary. The others are string and array oriented. COBOL is related more to the accounting department while the others to the mathematics department which has neither liked nor accepted the premises of COBOL. As someone who was a systems programmer and an applications programmer using COBOL and related proprietary languages (primarily DYL280 with some Easytrieve) I have my doubts about the long term survival of both COBOL and the mainframe, in part due to bad decisions. It is far cheaper to develop things on other platforms. One person who had worked extensively in COBOL including CICS is now using Microsoft tools and C# because he can develop things faster with less effort and even the free versions of the Microsoft tools are extremely capable. Also for the Windows and Unix environment, a developer has to make certain that the entity buy the COBOL package also has bought the run times which is not a problem with C/C++/C#. If a recent (or future) grad only finds jobs advertising for COBOL programmers, they need to learn it to compete, the same goes for other languages. If a company (or government) needs applications supported using a *relatively* less used language that they have trouble finding proper skills for, they increase the pay offered, and the people (and skills) will come. It might be painful, but it is not impossible by any stretch of the imagination. Frank Finley -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Bob goolsby Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:50 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Mornin' -- Well the first thing I found on a search for 'COBOL School' was http://www.askedu.net/training_topic/k_COBOL_1.htm which asked me to further clarify my self (and incidentally open me up to being spammed by the loverly children, I expect). But, scroll down to the bottom of the page and there is a block of links under the heading Find COBOL courses and training in countries:, and both Canada and the USA are included. A bit of exploration shows a lot of XXX (Javva and .Net, mostly) for the COBOL programmer, no surprise; but I also see Intro and Advanced COBOL courses advertised along with a couple of DB2 Using COBOL classes. Most of these are online education, but hey. As to what you can do to improve the situation, wander off to your local Higher Education Venue and your local community college and/or trade school. Fund a scholarship or two; endow a Chair in the CS department (Associate Professor of Dead Computer Linguistics); get involved now. It is already later than you think. By the way, how old is your Systems Programming team? On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 6:25 AM, Mike Baldwin m...@cartagena.com wrote: Hi IBM-MAIN, Yesterday Canada's well-respected auditor-general released a report complaining that aging government computer systems could halt delivery of basic services. So we're bracing for the usual criticism of 'old mainframe' systems. Today there are some specifics, including COBOL: Auditor-General reports that updating systems could cost billions ... Ms. Fraser said the problem is so bad that some key programs may shut down. ... Meanwhile, Canada's National Immigration Program runs on a programming language - COBOL - that is no longer being taught and the staff that understand it are retiring. The program also uses a database system called DMSII that dates back to the 1970s http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-wont-let-aging-computers-halt-basic-services-day-says/article1540750/ Maybe you guys and girls have some ideas that would save us taxpayers from paying rising interest on more billions borrowed. Regards, Mike Baldwin Cartagena Software Limited Markham, Ontario, Canada http://www.cartagena.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 05:47:27 -0500, Jim Elliott, IBM jim_elli...@ca.ibm.com wrote: IMHO, there is probably more business server application code written in COBOL than any other language still, and I see no reason for that to change. This is close to the thought that occurred to me when I read it. If the government's I.T. expert, and the departments that apparently agree with her think that COBOL is a problem, at the little ol' government of Canada (OK, maybe not that little), do they not realize that the Earth turns on its axis, financially at least, thanks in great part to COBOL? And if they must change it, in global terms I suppose the world should consider a Y2K-like project but some orders of magnitude larger. Maybe (probably?) this is misreported by the media, but if true, I think they need to be informed of the absurdity. Is someone carrying the flag for COBOL? I hope he/she doesn't prove their point by retiring without a successor! Regards, Mike Baldwin Cartagena Software Limited Markham, Ontario, Canada http://www.cartagena.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 22 Apr 2010 03:48:05 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:35:00 -0500, Kelman, Tom thomas.kel...@commercebank.com wrote: John, That WikiPedia article also states that DMSII was created by Burroughs (later UniSys) as a database to run on its processors. Does that mean they are still running UniSys machines. If so they have problems over and above COBOL not being taught. It sounds like a typical government non-upgrade environment. Now they are caught in the dark ages and instead of upgrading to modern DB2 and COBOL on proper processors they are probably going to throw out the baby with the bath water and get OMG - WINDOWS. Tom Kelman Tom: The report was misleading (confusing) in many ways in that it talked about all of the government. The specific department involved here regarding DMSII (Human Resources Development Canada, HRDC) is running an older UNISYS environment. Much of the Canadian Government IT environment is on very current technology (and yes that includes lots of IBM System z). However, the canard about COBOL is one that always bothers me. A year or two ago the Toronto Star had an article about COBOL being a deal language. COBOL could paraphrase Mark Twain, The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated.. IMHO, there is probably more business server application code written in COBOL than any other language still, and I see no reason for that to change. With the many conversions off the mainframe and with the growth of packages such as SAP, I seriously wonder whether this is still true. A large amount of code has been replaced. Jim -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 21 Apr 2010 07:35:48 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: John, That WikiPedia article also states that DMSII was created by Burroughs (later UniSys) as a database to run on its processors. Does that mean they are still running UniSys machines. If so they have problems over and above COBOL not being taught. It sounds like a typical government non-upgrade environment. Now they are caught in the dark ages and instead of upgrading to modern DB2 and COBOL on proper processors they are probably going to throw out the baby with the bath water and get OMG - WINDOWS. The intelligent upgrade would be to a current Unisys offering which has a migration path from the existing system if disruption is to be avoided. Another alternative would be to consolidate on a platform already understood by the agency. I suspect that moving to COBOL and DB2 on z could be more painful and costly than a number of other alternatives. Tom Kelman Enterprise Capacity Planner Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:37 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Easy solution. Declare COBOL a national treasure and force all Universities in Canada to teach it as a prerequisite to any other Computer Science class. Or at least as a graduation requirement for a Bachelor's degree in CS. That's the government way. Just pass a law. I mean, I had to take classes that I didn't like in order to get my B.Sc. in Math. (like English and History), Why not require COBOL? It's no more arbitrary than anything else that nobody wants to take. And there are PC based COBOL compilers (at least for Windows). DMSII doesn't ring a bell, but according to Wikipedia: quoteDMSII provided: an ISAM model for data access, transaction isolation and database recovery capabilities./quote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisys_DMSII . So all that is needed is another database system which has the same API to replace it. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Baldwin Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:25 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Hi IBM-MAIN, Yesterday Canada's well-respected auditor-general released a report complaining that aging government computer systems could halt delivery of basic services. So we're bracing for the usual criticism of 'old mainframe' systems. Today there are some specifics, including COBOL: Auditor-General reports that updating systems could cost billions ... Ms. Fraser said the problem is so bad that some key programs may shut down. ... Meanwhile, Canada's National Immigration Program runs on a programming language - COBOL - that is no longer being taught and the staff that understand it are retiring. The program also uses a database system called DMSII that dates back to the 1970s http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-wont-l et-aging-computers-halt-basic-services-day-says/article1540750/ Maybe you guys and girls have some ideas that would save us taxpayers from paying rising interest on more billions borrowed. Regards, Mike Baldwin Cartagena Software Limited Markham, Ontario, Canada http://www.cartagena.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html * If you wish to communicate securely with Commerce Bank and its affiliates, you must log into your account
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
That would be hard to say without really studying the current environment. I would imagine that the current Unisys environment is as far from what they are running on as would be System z using DB2 and Cobol. However, since they are on an old Unisys/Burroughs environment they might be able to get some serious assistance from current Unisys to upgrade. You can never tell until you ask. Tom Kelman Enterprise Capacity Planner Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Clark Morris Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 10:29 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem On 21 Apr 2010 07:35:48 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: John, That WikiPedia article also states that DMSII was created by Burroughs (later UniSys) as a database to run on its processors. Does that mean they are still running UniSys machines. If so they have problems over and above COBOL not being taught. It sounds like a typical government non-upgrade environment. Now they are caught in the dark ages and instead of upgrading to modern DB2 and COBOL on proper processors they are probably going to throw out the baby with the bath water and get OMG - WINDOWS. The intelligent upgrade would be to a current Unisys offering which has a migration path from the existing system if disruption is to be avoided. Another alternative would be to consolidate on a platform already understood by the agency. I suspect that moving to COBOL and DB2 on z could be more painful and costly than a number of other alternatives. Tom Kelman Enterprise Capacity Planner Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:37 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Easy solution. Declare COBOL a national treasure and force all Universities in Canada to teach it as a prerequisite to any other Computer Science class. Or at least as a graduation requirement for a Bachelor's degree in CS. That's the government way. Just pass a law. I mean, I had to take classes that I didn't like in order to get my B.Sc. in Math. (like English and History), Why not require COBOL? It's no more arbitrary than anything else that nobody wants to take. And there are PC based COBOL compilers (at least for Windows). DMSII doesn't ring a bell, but according to Wikipedia: quoteDMSII provided: an ISAM model for data access, transaction isolation and database recovery capabilities./quote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisys_DMSII . So all that is needed is another database system which has the same API to replace it. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Baldwin Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:25 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Hi IBM-MAIN, Yesterday Canada's well-respected auditor-general released a report complaining that aging government computer systems could halt delivery of basic services. So we're bracing for the usual criticism of 'old mainframe' systems. Today there are some specifics, including COBOL: Auditor-General reports that updating systems could cost billions ... Ms. Fraser said the problem is so bad that some key programs may shut down. ... Meanwhile, Canada's National Immigration Program runs on a programming language - COBOL - that is no longer being taught and the staff that understand it are retiring. The program also uses a database system called DMSII that dates back to the 1970s http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-wont-l et-aging-computers-halt-basic-services-day-says/article1540750/ Maybe you guys and girls have some ideas that would save us taxpayers from paying rising interest on more billions borrowed. Regards, Mike Baldwin
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
a different variation on the COBOL theme Moving old code from mainframe to servers http://www.fiercecio.com/story/moving-old-code-mainframe-servers/2010-04-21 One firm's story: The mainframe goes, but Cobol stays behind http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9175840/One_firm_s_story_The_mainframe_goes_but_Cobol_stays_behind?source=rss_news from above: A lot of Cobol-based applications have a plot line similar to the first Star Trek movie. In it, the crew of the Enterprise discovers a huge, intelligent cloud they called V'ger. It turns out (plot spoiler alert), though, that V'ger was an unmanned spacecraft called Voyager that had been launched from Earth some 300 years earlier and then readapted by alien forces. ... snip ... -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Interesting. If Cobol would be a problem, I would expect most of IBM mainframe shops to develop new applications in (so called) modern languages. I don't see it here in Israel. Most of the new code is still developed in Cobol, Natural and some PL/I. farther more, if you are a mainframe centric shop, it would be so cleaver to distribute your applications when everybody is doing the opposite (server consolidation, green computing, etc.). What I do see is a movement from direct coding to rule engines and code generators. At end, programming will be like tailoring. Experts will develop the rules, and the programmer will just drive the records in and our invoking the rules. As other wrote, Cobol is just another language in the forest, an easier one to understand. ITschak On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 11:29 PM, Anne Lynn Wheeler l...@garlic.comwrote: a different variation on the COBOL theme Moving old code from mainframe to servers http://www.fiercecio.com/story/moving-old-code-mainframe-servers/2010-04-21 One firm's story: The mainframe goes, but Cobol stays behind http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9175840/One_firm_s_story_The_mainframe_goes_but_Cobol_stays_behind?source=rss_news from above: A lot of Cobol-based applications have a plot line similar to the first Star Trek movie. In it, the crew of the Enterprise discovers a huge, intelligent cloud they called V'ger. It turns out (plot spoiler alert), though, that V'ger was an unmanned spacecraft called Voyager that had been launched from Earth some 300 years earlier and then readapted by alien forces. ... snip ... -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
imugz...@gmail.com (Itschak Mugzach) writes: Interesting. If Cobol would be a problem, I would expect most of IBM mainframe shops to develop new applications in (so called) modern languages. I don't see it here in Israel. Most of the new code is still developed in Cobol, Natural and some PL/I. farther more, if you are a mainframe centric shop, it would be so cleaver to distribute your applications when everybody is doing the opposite (server consolidation, green computing, etc.). What I do see is a movement from direct coding to rule engines and code generators. At end, programming will be like tailoring. Experts will develop the rules, and the programmer will just drive the records in and our invoking the rules. As other wrote, Cobol is just another language in the forest, an easier one to understand. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010h.html#46 COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem there was big push in the 90s to re-engineer a lot of legacy financial applications (large percentage cobal) that were running settlement batch applications running overnight; using new languages, new processes, large numbers of killer micros and parallel operation ... in order to have straight through processing (eliminating overnight batch settlement for transactions). the toy demos looked good but things collapsed when it came to production rollout. they had ignored speedsfeeds and the technology used had something like 100 times more overhead than the batch cobol (totally swamping any anticipated increased thruput from large numbers of killer micros). In the past decade, I've done some consulting with company that has developed an infrastructure that translates high-level financial business rules into fine-grain SQL transactions. they've been able to demo rapid development/deployment of straight through processing ... with highly parallelized and very high transaction rates. A primary difference compared to the 90s efforts ... is that they rely on the significant parallel technology that has been developed by RDBMS vendors (rather than trying to invent everything from scratch). The parallel RDBMS implementation may have 4-5 times the overhead compared to non-parallelized/sequential batch cobol with vsam ... but the real-time thruput is significantly increased with parallel operation (able to accomplish straight through processing and eliminate the overnight batch settlement). -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
From: Ted MacNEIL eamacn...@yahoo.ca To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Sent: Thu, April 22, 2010 10:05:02 AM Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Considering how many different programming languages I've had to deal with over the course of my career, one of the most useful skills I acquired in school was the ability to learn new programming languages, not the ability to program in some specific language. I don't disagree with that concept, but in the case of the rookie (or co-op) programmer, why not teach them COBOL while you're teaching them programming skills. They have to learn some language, and COBOL is still a major need in the IT working world. --- Ted: Interesting issue. I have talked to people who do the hiring of application types and the consensus that I have heard is that the more languages an application knows the more likely he/she will be hired. Now I am talking reasonably current languages, not Fortran RPG etc... COBOL still is a MUST. Having said that saying you know a language is a far stretch (at times) from working in it on a day to day basis. Some of the comments on here seem to think that things like DYL and EASYTREIVE RPG, frankly I do not agree they are really languages. I am not trying to put down the report programs but you must admit they are a little far from a computer language, NO? In fact I have seen clerks (and I do mean clerks) write a program. Now these programs were compiled with assembler H. They were essentially HUGE Macro's. The easytrieve category is somewhat more programmer oriented as you had to work with fields in a record. Where the assembler programs it was all done underneath the covers so the clerks did not have to worry about record layouts. The idea of language is getting a little loose I will grant you but I will stand on RPG, EASYTREIVE, DYL and others in my opinion are not anything close to a language. I am curious as to what other have to say about what is and what isn't a language. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 22 April 2010 17:59, Ed Gould ps2...@yahoo.com wrote: The idea of language is getting a little loose I will grant you but I will stand on RPG, EASYTREIVE, DYL and others in my opinion are not anything close to a language. I am curious as to what other have to say about what is and what isn't a language. No doubt the most obvious example is Excel (or similar spreadsheets). Any number of managers, clerks, professionals and so on write their own spreadsheet formulas, and sometimes macros, and any number of them are wrong in so many ways. But life and business continues... Tony H. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 22 Apr 2010 14:59:57 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: From: Ted MacNEIL eamacn...@yahoo.ca To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Sent: Thu, April 22, 2010 10:05:02 AM Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Considering how many different programming languages I've had to deal with over the course of my career, one of the most useful skills I acquired in school was the ability to learn new programming languages, not the ability to program in some specific language. I don't disagree with that concept, but in the case of the rookie (or co-op) programmer, why not teach them COBOL while you're teaching them programming skills. They have to learn some language, and COBOL is still a major need in the IT working world. --- Ted: Interesting issue. I have talked to people who do the hiring of application types and the consensus that I have heard is that the more languages an application knows the more likely he/she will be hired. Now I am talking reasonably current languages, not Fortran RPG etc... COBOL still is a MUST. Having said that saying you know a language is a far stretch (at times) from working in it on a day to day basis. Some of the comments on here seem to think that things like DYL and EASYTREIVE RPG, frankly I do not agree they are really languages. I am not trying to put down the report programs but you must admit they are a little far from a computer language, NO? In fact I have seen clerks (and I do mean clerks) write a program. Now these programs were compiled with assembler H. They were essentially HUGE Macro's. The easytrieve category is somewhat more programmer oriented as you had to work with fields in a record. Where the assembler programs it was all done underneath the covers so the clerks did not have to worry about record layouts. The idea of language is getting a little loose I will grant you but I will stand on RPG, EASYTREIVE, DYL and others in my opinion are not anything close to a language. DYL280 has a VERY strong set of procedural capabilities including bit manipulation, the ability to use COBOL record descriptions, SORT verb, etc. I have used it to reformat SMF 30 records and play with directory blocks. It can be more powerful than COBOL for many things besides report writing. I am curious as to what other have to say about what is and what isn't a language. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
I'm just the messenger... but I'll add that street parking is easy, you needn't pay a garage. And I'd rate the usual refreshments better than light. - http://www.dcacm.org/default.aspx The Washington DC Chapter of the Association for Computing Machinery, with support from the New America Foundation, is proud to present the May 2010 lecture. Dr. Allen Tucker, Is There a Good Programming Language Out There? Topic: The history of programming languages provides a fascinating backdrop for discussing the idea of quality in language design. Over the years, many languages have introduced some excellent features, but no single language has captured the imagination of such a large audience that it has become the lingua franca of computing. This talk proposes a small set of ideal qualities that programming languages should possess. We then explore a variety of past and current language features that represent these qualities, both well and poorly. Finally, we suggest yet another programming language that can possesses all these ideal qualities simultaneously, considering also the challenges that would accompany its effective implementation. When: Monday May 17th, 2010 7:30pm to 9:00pm Where: New America Foundation 1899 L Street NW Suite 400 (4th Floor) Washington, DC 20036 Near Farragut North Metro Station. Parking is available until midnight at a garage on 19th between M and L streets for $7.00. This lecture is free of charge and open to the public. ACM membership is not required to attend, nor is an RSVP necessary. Please feel free to bring friends and colleagues. Light refreshments will be served. Joel C. Ewing said: Considering how many different programming languages I've had to deal with over the course of my career, one of the most useful skills I acquired in school was the ability to learn new programming languages, not the ability to program in some specific language. -- Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc. (703) 204-0433 3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042g...@gabegold.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Hi IBM-MAIN, Yesterday Canada's well-respected auditor-general released a report complaining that aging government computer systems could halt delivery of basic services. So we're bracing for the usual criticism of 'old mainframe' systems. Today there are some specifics, including COBOL: Auditor-General reports that updating systems could cost billions ... Ms. Fraser said the problem is so bad that some key programs may shut down. ... Meanwhile, Canadas National Immigration Program runs on a programming language COBOL that is no longer being taught and the staff that understand it are retiring. The program also uses a database system called DMSII that dates back to the 1970s http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-wont-let-aging-computers-halt-basic-services-day-says/article1540750/ Maybe you guys and girls have some ideas that would save us taxpayers from paying rising interest on more billions borrowed. Regards, Mike Baldwin Cartagena Software Limited Markham, Ontario, Canada http://www.cartagena.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Easy solution. Declare COBOL a national treasure and force all Universities in Canada to teach it as a prerequisite to any other Computer Science class. Or at least as a graduation requirement for a Bachelor's degree in CS. That's the government way. Just pass a law. I mean, I had to take classes that I didn't like in order to get my B.Sc. in Math. (like English and History), Why not require COBOL? It's no more arbitrary than anything else that nobody wants to take. And there are PC based COBOL compilers (at least for Windows). DMSII doesn't ring a bell, but according to Wikipedia: quoteDMSII provided: an ISAM model for data access, transaction isolation and database recovery capabilities./quote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisys_DMSII . So all that is needed is another database system which has the same API to replace it. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Baldwin Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:25 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Hi IBM-MAIN, Yesterday Canada's well-respected auditor-general released a report complaining that aging government computer systems could halt delivery of basic services. So we're bracing for the usual criticism of 'old mainframe' systems. Today there are some specifics, including COBOL: Auditor-General reports that updating systems could cost billions ... Ms. Fraser said the problem is so bad that some key programs may shut down. ... Meanwhile, Canada's National Immigration Program runs on a programming language - COBOL - that is no longer being taught and the staff that understand it are retiring. The program also uses a database system called DMSII that dates back to the 1970s http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-wont-l et-aging-computers-halt-basic-services-day-says/article1540750/ Maybe you guys and girls have some ideas that would save us taxpayers from paying rising interest on more billions borrowed. Regards, Mike Baldwin Cartagena Software Limited Markham, Ontario, Canada http://www.cartagena.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Mike Baldwin wrote: Hi IBM-MAIN, Yesterday Canada's well-respected auditor-general released a report complaining that aging government computer systems could halt delivery of basic services. So we're bracing for the usual criticism of 'old mainframe' systems. Today there are some specifics, including COBOL: Auditor-General reports that updating systems could cost billions ... Ms. Fraser said the problem is so bad that some key programs may shut down. ... Meanwhile, Canada’s National Immigration Program runs on a programming language – COBOL – that is no longer being taught and the staff that understand it are retiring. Well! Maybe COBOL is no longer being taught in the universities, but it is still being taught by us and our competitors and our colleagues. Maybe the Auditor-General people need to know that today's COBOL can handle modern constructs and data formats. COBOL can process Unicode and ASCII data, extract and create XML, work with DB2 using LOBs (which means it can handle images and media files just fine, thank you); COBOL can be used to create or access DLLs, and on and on. The program also uses a database system called DMSII that dates back to the 1970s I have no knowledge of that product, so can't comment. But the story smacks of someone already having made their mind up, and facts will not get in the way. Once again IBM has not told their story well. And I lay this kind of result squarely at the feet of IBM. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-wont-let-aging-computers-halt-basic-services-day-says/article1540750/ Maybe you guys and girls have some ideas that would save us taxpayers from paying rising interest on more billions borrowed. Regards, Mike Baldwin Cartagena Software Limited Markham, Ontario, Canada http://www.cartagena.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Kind regards, -Steve Comstock The Trainer's Friend, Inc. 303-393-8716 http://www.trainersfriend.com * z/OS application programmer training + Instructor-led on-site classroom based classes + Course materials licensing + Remote contact training + Roadshows + Course development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
In a message dated 4/21/2010 8:25:18 A.M. Central Daylight Time, m...@cartagena.com writes: Yesterday Canada's well-respected auditor-general released a report complaining that aging government computer systems could halt delivery of Wonder where he's been the last three decades? Seems like a coordinated approach between government, industry and education should resolve most of the issues and save money down the road. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 21 Apr 2010 06:42:06 -0700, st...@trainersfriend.com (Steve Comstock) wrote: Well! Maybe COBOL is no longer being taught in the universities, but it is still being taught by us and our competitors and our colleagues. Maybe the Auditor-General people need to know that today's COBOL can handle modern constructs and data formats. COBOL can process Unicode and ASCII data, extract and create XML, work with DB2 using LOBs (which means it can handle images and media files just fine, thank you); COBOL can be used to create or access DLLs, and on and on. Or maybe it won't matter to them. The decision makers use a wide variety of criteria to make their choices about what kind of system to buy, and probably don't know what all of that means. The perception is that mainframe CoBOL shops are dying out. New companies increasingly don't believe that in-house training is worthwhile (why train for your employee to go to a competitor?). The perception is that it's easier and cheaper to buy a package and adjust one's business practices to the package so that no modifications are needed. They do believe interface programming would still be needed - including the XML you mentioned above, and lots of data warehouse reports - farmed out to the users, not the programmers.But these can be using whatever tools the salesmen include with the package they buy. And if those prove to be more expensive in the long run - that's someone else's problem.Working in the short run works for politicians and bankers, even if the country and banks suffered for it.The resumes can show how much money they saved in the short run, if the accounting is creative. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
John, That WikiPedia article also states that DMSII was created by Burroughs (later UniSys) as a database to run on its processors. Does that mean they are still running UniSys machines. If so they have problems over and above COBOL not being taught. It sounds like a typical government non-upgrade environment. Now they are caught in the dark ages and instead of upgrading to modern DB2 and COBOL on proper processors they are probably going to throw out the baby with the bath water and get OMG - WINDOWS. Tom Kelman Enterprise Capacity Planner Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:37 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Easy solution. Declare COBOL a national treasure and force all Universities in Canada to teach it as a prerequisite to any other Computer Science class. Or at least as a graduation requirement for a Bachelor's degree in CS. That's the government way. Just pass a law. I mean, I had to take classes that I didn't like in order to get my B.Sc. in Math. (like English and History), Why not require COBOL? It's no more arbitrary than anything else that nobody wants to take. And there are PC based COBOL compilers (at least for Windows). DMSII doesn't ring a bell, but according to Wikipedia: quoteDMSII provided: an ISAM model for data access, transaction isolation and database recovery capabilities./quote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisys_DMSII . So all that is needed is another database system which has the same API to replace it. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Baldwin Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:25 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Hi IBM-MAIN, Yesterday Canada's well-respected auditor-general released a report complaining that aging government computer systems could halt delivery of basic services. So we're bracing for the usual criticism of 'old mainframe' systems. Today there are some specifics, including COBOL: Auditor-General reports that updating systems could cost billions ... Ms. Fraser said the problem is so bad that some key programs may shut down. ... Meanwhile, Canada's National Immigration Program runs on a programming language - COBOL - that is no longer being taught and the staff that understand it are retiring. The program also uses a database system called DMSII that dates back to the 1970s http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-wont-l et-aging-computers-halt-basic-services-day-says/article1540750/ Maybe you guys and girls have some ideas that would save us taxpayers from paying rising interest on more billions borrowed. Regards, Mike Baldwin Cartagena Software Limited Markham, Ontario, Canada http://www.cartagena.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html * If you wish to communicate securely with Commerce Bank and its affiliates, you must log into your account under Online Services at http://www.commercebank.com or use the Commerce Bank Secure Email Message Center at https://securemail.commercebank.com NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential. The information is exclusively for the use of the individual or entity intended as the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, printing, reviewing, retention, disclosure
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Agreed; the entire hysteria over the loss of mainframe and COBOL skills is a red herring. The notion that there is a shortage of COBOL skills is especially silly. The real problem is that these government agencies (and many businesses) have done a bad job of managing and maintaining their legacy systems. Its a simple thing to find or train someone in COBOL - but try to teach them the business domain or the knowledge of how these huge legacy systems work - that is the real issue. As programmers with 40 years of experience on these systems retire or are downsized, does anyone believe that COBOL skills are the real loss? Please...its much easier for them to blame their problems on COBOL than to admit that they have done a crappy job managing their legacy assets. At each step in maintenance it is always easier to hack something together rather than to clean things up with new changes and requirements, but eventually there is a price to pay. Kirk Wolf Dovetailed Technologies On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 8:37 AM, McKown, John john.mck...@healthmarkets.com wrote: Easy solution. Declare COBOL a national treasure and force all Universities in Canada to teach it as a prerequisite to any other Computer Science class. Or at least as a graduation requirement for a Bachelor's degree in CS. That's the government way. Just pass a law. I mean, I had to take classes that I didn't like in order to get my B.Sc. in Math. (like English and History), Why not require COBOL? It's no more arbitrary than anything else that nobody wants to take. And there are PC based COBOL compilers (at least for Windows). DMSII doesn't ring a bell, but according to Wikipedia: quoteDMSII provided: an ISAM model for data access, transaction isolation and database recovery capabilities./quote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisys_DMSII . So all that is needed is another database system which has the same API to replace it. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Howard Brazee howard.bra...@cusys.edu writes: The perception is that mainframe CoBOL shops are dying out. New companies increasingly don't believe that in-house training is worthwhile (why train for your employee to go to a competitor?). The perception is that it's easier and cheaper to buy a package and adjust one's business practices to the package so that no modifications are needed. some of this view reflects the culture of the executives ... they are brought in to plunder the company and then they move on to plunder the next company. in the past decade, SOX was passed to strengthen countermeasures to the plundering tactics. However, it appeared because SEC wasn't doing anything ... the GAO started database of financial filings by public companies that it believed were fraudulent ... showing a significant increase in fraudulent financial filings in period since SOX was passed. a scenario was that the fraudulent financial filings boosted executive bonuses ... and even if the filings were later corrected, the executives didn't forfeit the bonus. I made joke about how to spin with respect to SOX: 1) sox audits had no effect on fraud 2) public companies were motivated to increase fraudulent financial filings under sox 3) if it hadn't been for sox, every public company would start making fraudulent financial filings. in the madoff congressional hearings, there was testimony by somebody that had tried for a decade to get SEC to do something about Madoff (and nothing happened). They also had a separate tidbit related to SOX ... informers turn up 13 times more fraud than audits; also SEC didn't have a tips hotline ... but had a 1-800 for companies to complain about audits. slightly related recent post http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010h.html#35 First among SQLs; COBOL for lawyers regarding this recent article First among SQLs; COBOL for lawyers http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/20/verity_stob_sql/ -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Wonder where he's been the last three decades? He's actually a she -- Sheila Fraser. Seems like a coordinated approach between government, industry and education should resolve most of the issues and save money down the road. Canada doesn't have a good record of doing that kind of thing. In the early 1990's, when the University of Waterloo dropped the requirement of COBOL for the co-op programme in Computer Science, rather than working it out with them, at least one Canadian Bank just stated they will not hire co-ops from there, anymore. No coordination, accomodation, or olive branch. Just a blanket statement that implied no hiring even if the co-op had COBOL. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Mornin' -- Well the first thing I found on a search for 'COBOL School' was http://www.askedu.net/training_topic/k_COBOL_1.htm which asked me to further clarify my self (and incidentally open me up to being spammed by the loverly children, I expect). But, scroll down to the bottom of the page and there is a block of links under the heading Find COBOL courses and training in countries:, and both Canada and the USA are included. A bit of exploration shows a lot of XXX (Javva and .Net, mostly) for the COBOL programmer, no surprise; but I also see Intro and Advanced COBOL courses advertised along with a couple of DB2 Using COBOL classes. Most of these are online education, but hey. As to what you can do to improve the situation, wander off to your local Higher Education Venue and your local community college and/or trade school. Fund a scholarship or two; endow a Chair in the CS department (Associate Professor of Dead Computer Linguistics); get involved now. It is already later than you think. By the way, how old is your Systems Programming team? On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 6:25 AM, Mike Baldwin m...@cartagena.com wrote: Hi IBM-MAIN, Yesterday Canada's well-respected auditor-general released a report complaining that aging government computer systems could halt delivery of basic services. So we're bracing for the usual criticism of 'old mainframe' systems. Today there are some specifics, including COBOL: Auditor-General reports that updating systems could cost billions ... Ms. Fraser said the problem is so bad that some key programs may shut down. ... Meanwhile, Canada’s National Immigration Program runs on a programming language – COBOL – that is no longer being taught and the staff that understand it are retiring. The program also uses a database system called DMSII that dates back to the 1970s http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-wont-let-aging-computers-halt-basic-services-day-says/article1540750/ Maybe you guys and girls have some ideas that would save us taxpayers from paying rising interest on more billions borrowed. Regards, Mike Baldwin Cartagena Software Limited Markham, Ontario, Canada http://www.cartagena.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Bob Goolsby bob.gool...@gmail.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
He's actually a she -- Sheila Fraser. Not that there's anything wrong with that! Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:42:41 + From: eamacn...@yahoo.ca Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Wonder where he's been the last three decades? He's actually a she -- Sheila Fraser. _ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccountocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Who cares whether the universities are requiring COBOL or not? There are plenty of places and ways to learn it, and any Programmer worth employing should be able to pick it up relatively easy. They may not be as good as a seasoned programmer, but you can't expect a college graduate to perform at the same level as someone with work experience, no matter the language. Universities are for teaching conceptual processes, how to learn and grasp the fundamentals of how programming works, not how to use a specific language, that's what a trade school, or specific class is for. If a recent (or future) grad only finds jobs advertising for COBOL programmers, they need to learn it to compete, the same goes for other languages. If a company (or government) needs applications supported using a *relatively* less used language that they have trouble finding proper skills for, they increase the pay offered, and the people (and skills) will come. It might be painful, but it is not impossible by any stretch of the imagination. Frank Finley -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Bob goolsby Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:50 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Mornin' -- Well the first thing I found on a search for 'COBOL School' was http://www.askedu.net/training_topic/k_COBOL_1.htm which asked me to further clarify my self (and incidentally open me up to being spammed by the loverly children, I expect). But, scroll down to the bottom of the page and there is a block of links under the heading Find COBOL courses and training in countries:, and both Canada and the USA are included. A bit of exploration shows a lot of XXX (Javva and .Net, mostly) for the COBOL programmer, no surprise; but I also see Intro and Advanced COBOL courses advertised along with a couple of DB2 Using COBOL classes. Most of these are online education, but hey. As to what you can do to improve the situation, wander off to your local Higher Education Venue and your local community college and/or trade school. Fund a scholarship or two; endow a Chair in the CS department (Associate Professor of Dead Computer Linguistics); get involved now. It is already later than you think. By the way, how old is your Systems Programming team? On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 6:25 AM, Mike Baldwin m...@cartagena.com wrote: Hi IBM-MAIN, Yesterday Canada's well-respected auditor-general released a report complaining that aging government computer systems could halt delivery of basic services. So we're bracing for the usual criticism of 'old mainframe' systems. Today there are some specifics, including COBOL: Auditor-General reports that updating systems could cost billions ... Ms. Fraser said the problem is so bad that some key programs may shut down. ... Meanwhile, Canada's National Immigration Program runs on a programming language - COBOL - that is no longer being taught and the staff that understand it are retiring. The program also uses a database system called DMSII that dates back to the 1970s http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-wont-let-aging-computers-halt-basic-services-day-says/article1540750/ Maybe you guys and girls have some ideas that would save us taxpayers from paying rising interest on more billions borrowed. Regards, Mike Baldwin Cartagena Software Limited Markham, Ontario, Canada http://www.cartagena.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Bob Goolsby bob.gool...@gmail.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
quote Who cares whether the universities are requiring COBOL or not? There are plenty of places and ways to learn it, and any Programmer worth employing should be able to pick it up relatively easy. They may not be as good as a seasoned programmer, but you can't expect a college graduate to perform at the same level as someone with work experience, no matter the language. Universities are for teaching conceptual processes, how to learn and grasp the fundamentals of how programming works, not how to use a specific language, that's what a trade school, or specific class is for. If a recent (or future) grad only finds jobs advertising for COBOL programmers, they need to learn it to compete, the same goes for other languages. If a company (or government) needs applications supported using a *relatively* less used language that they have trouble finding proper skills for, they increase the pay offered, and the people (and skills) will come. It might be painful, but it is not impossible by any stretch of the imagination. Frank Finley /quote There was a point made earlier which hit the nail on the head for me. It's not the language or programming skills in that language which is retiring. It's the 20+ years experience working with that business application which is retiring This e-mail message, including any attachments transmitted with it, is CONFIDENTIAL and may contain legally privileged information. This message is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and delete it from your system. Please visit our website to read the full disclaimer: http://www.euroclear.com/site/public/disclaimer
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 21 Apr 2010 06:57:50 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: In a message dated 4/21/2010 8:25:18 A.M. Central Daylight Time, m...@cartagena.com writes: Yesterday Canada's well-respected auditor-general released a report complaining that aging government computer systems could halt delivery of Wonder where he's been the last three decades? Seems like a coordinated approach between government, industry and education should resolve most of the issues and save money down the road. Sheila Fraser looks at any given area in depth only infrequently and this is tame compared to some of the things she has found. Governments tend not to replace and upgrade systems too frequently. The bidding process can be convoluted and the results can be a nightmare for the entity. Imagine having to replace a Burroughs A series with an IBM z series just to do a simple upgrade. I remember hearing the horror show of one government shop with a mod 50 under small business third party maintenance with a tape controller and x number of drives from manufacturer 1 and more drives from manufacturer 2. I think the mod 50 in question was a US Navy shop but I heard the story over 20 years ago. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Who cares whether the universities are requiring COBOL or not? In co-op programmes, it does matter if you are preparing for the work force, so it (IMO) is important. There are plenty of places and ways to learn it ... But, if I'm already enrolled in a Computer Science stream, why should I have to spend extra (time or money) to learn it, elsewhere? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but this sounds suspiciously like the argument:Universities are not here to prepare you for the work place; rather to teach you how to learn. If that's the case, I disagree. I enrolled in the University of Waterloo to prepare myself for a career in computers. Many, along with UOW, have co-op programes. All have employment counselling programmes to help place you post-graduation. If that isn't preparing for the workplace, what is? To me, not teaching COBOL, is like a future surgeon not being taught anatomy. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Well . I teach COBOL ... and I am also Canadian ... Could that help? Meir Zohar CISSP, IBM Certified DBA for DB2 for z/OS V8/V9 Tel:+972 3 5747860 Fax: +972 3 5747864 Mob: +972 54 5747350 email: zme...@bezeqint.net -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 21 Apr 2010 08:49:55 -0700, cfmpub...@ns.sympatico.ca (Clark Morris) wrote: Governments tend not to replace and upgrade systems too frequently. The bidding process can be convoluted and the results can be a nightmare for the entity. An excellent example of this very problem from an unrelated field: the KC-X project. The U.S. Air Force has been attempting for almost ten years now to procure a new aerial tanker to replace the ageing fleet of KC-135s. -- Eric Chevalier E-mail: et...@tulsagrammer.com Web: www.tulsagrammer.com Is that call really worth your childapos;s life? HANG UP AND DRIVE! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
I seem to recall a SHARE presentation about DGTIC (LE CENTRE DE SERVICES PARTAGÉS) doing an 'upgrade' to Linux on System z around 2006/2007. I guess that doesn't count? -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Baldwin Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:25 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: [IBM-MAIN] COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem Hi IBM-MAIN, Yesterday Canada's well-respected auditor-general released a report complaining that aging government computer systems could halt delivery of basic services. So we're bracing for the usual criticism of 'old mainframe' systems. Today there are some specifics, including COBOL: Auditor-General reports that updating systems could cost billions ... Ms. Fraser said the problem is so bad that some key programs may shut down. ... Meanwhile, Canada's National Immigration Program runs on a programming language - COBOL - that is no longer being taught and the staff that understand it are retiring. The program also uses a database system called DMSII that dates back to the 1970s http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-wont-let-aging-computers-halt-basic-services-day-says/article1540750/ Maybe you guys and girls have some ideas that would save us taxpayers from paying rising interest on more billions borrowed. Regards, Mike Baldwin Cartagena Software Limited Markham, Ontario, Canada http://www.cartagena.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
On 4/21/2010 at 04:27 PM, Ken Porowski ken.porow...@cit.com wrote: I seem to recall a SHARE presentation about DGTIC (LE CENTRE DE SERVICES PARTAGÉS) doing an 'upgrade' to Linux on System z around 2006/2007. It was actually an Oracle server consolidation onto a brand-new z9BC, followed by installation of even more virtual Oracle servers. Paid for itself in less than a year. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Baldwin Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:25 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: [IBM-MAIN] COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem -snip- Maybe you guys and girls have some ideas that would save us taxpayers from paying rising interest on more billions borrowed. Hopefully you weren't aiming that at anyone from the US. Our government isn't exactly well know for reducing the amount of money it borrows. Mark Post -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem
Its interesting now people in various organizations are in a 4 star panic when the word Cobol comes up. Everyone is so into JAVA and the other object languages. The other interesting fact is how many kids (20-30 yr olds) want to learn Assembler or Cobol ...they go where the money is thats JAVAm C#, C++, etc. I dont fault them, just think its a sign of changes going on. Scott J Ford Senior Systems Engineer www.identityforge.com From: Mark Post mp...@novell.com To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 4:55:50 PM Subject: Re: COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem On 4/21/2010 at 04:27 PM, Ken Porowski ken.porow...@cit.com wrote: I seem to recall a SHARE presentation about DGTIC (LE CENTRE DE SERVICES PARTAGÉS) doing an 'upgrade' to Linux on System z around 2006/2007. It was actually an Oracle server consolidation onto a brand-new z9BC, followed by installation of even more virtual Oracle servers. Paid for itself in less than a year. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Baldwin Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:25 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: [IBM-MAIN] COBOL - no longer being taught - is a problem -snip- Maybe you guys and girls have some ideas that would save us taxpayers from paying rising interest on more billions borrowed. Hopefully you weren't aiming that at anyone from the US. Our government isn't exactly well know for reducing the amount of money it borrows. Mark Post -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
