Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 08/17/2008
   at 05:05 PM, Warren Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>The new math came out forty years ago!

The term may have come out then, but that just reflected the ignorance of
the "educators" who coined it; the Mathematics involved was far older. 
 
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Rick Fochtman]

And, how many mainframes does it take to change a lightbulb?

None. In Chicago, you'll pay a union electrician $36/hr., 2 hr. minimum, 
to change that light bulb.


If I'm lying, I'm dying. Chicagoland natives know EXACTLY what I'm 
talking about! :-(


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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert A. Rosenberg
> Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 5:22 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system
> 
> At 08:58 -0500 on 08/11/2008, Jeff Holst wrote about Re: California's 
> COBOL payroll system:
> 
> >Back when I was in college studying physics, we referred to 
> things with twist
> >or spin as having right- or left-handed spin. As one might expect, 
> >the initial for right-handed was r, but the initial for left-handed 
> >was s, for sinister. (Look up the origins of that word.)
> 
> Which is why the International NOT/NO Symbol uses a "Bar 
> Sinister" Slash.

You mean the reverse solidus? \

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Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
> 
> >Trivia - The New York City Subway controls (controlled?) the 
> theft of their Light Bulbs by having them made with reverse 
> threads so they were useless in standard sockets.
> 
> And, how many mainframes does it take to change a lightbulb?

GDPS, because you can't predict precisely when the lightbulb will need
to be changed.

-jc-

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Warren Brown]

When I was a kid I remember have problems with 'A quarter'.  For money it meant 
25 cents for,  time it meant 15 minutes . . . . 

Warren
-- Original message from "Robert A. Rosenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
-- 


> At 20:54 + on 08/10/2008, Warren Brown wrote about Re: 
> California's COBOL payroll system: 
> 
> >My wife teaches fifth grade and tells me that her kids can't tell 
> >time on an analog clock. They grew up in a digital world! 
> 
> Talking again about an Isaac Asimov story, he once wrote one that 
> hinged on the ability to misread/misinterpret the time displayed by a 
> Digital Clock. The time in the story was 5:50 PM but some witnesses 
> remembered it as 10 (minutes) to 6PM while others remembered it as 
> Half past 5PM. The difference was that the "Half past 5PM" witness 
> was an Accountant and was thinking of it as being $5.50 (thus 5 1/2). 
> 
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Trivia - The New York City Subway controls (controlled?) the theft of their 
>Light Bulbs by having them made with reverse threads so they were useless in 
>standard sockets.

And, how many mainframes does it take to change a lightbulb?
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Robert A. Rosenberg]

At 17:33 +0200 on 08/10/2008, Thomas Berg wrote about Re: 
California's COBOL payroll system:



==  Robert A. Rosenberg  ==  wrote2008-08-09 06:29:
At 11:43 AM -0500 on 8/6/08, Rick Fochtman wrote about Re: 
California's COBOL payroll system:


When second-graders are permitted to use calculators for arithmetic

Something predicted over 60 years ago in a story by Science Fiction 
Author Isaac  Asimov. In his story, set in the far future, everyone 
uses a Hand Calculator and the concept of being able to do 
arithmetic by hand is not even imagined until a mathematical genus 
reinvents arithmetic by studying the results produced by his Hand 
Calculator.


That story is hilarious !


As prophetic since kids now often can not do simple math in their 
heads. Also the part about the Military declaring the method "Top 
Secret" and the result for the inventor/re-discoverer.




Thomas Berg


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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Robert A. Rosenberg]

At 10:31 -0500 on 08/11/2008, Rick Fochtman wrote about Re: 
California's COBOL payroll system:


I must respectfully disagree. When my "server" at the Golden Arches 
doesn't understand that "half a dozen" McNuggets is the same as 
"Six", and she's in her early twenties, I have to cast certain 
aspersions on basic education in this country. When she can't make 
change because the power failed and she can't do basic arithmetic, I 
have to wonder what's being taught in school.


Or when you hand her $11.25 for a $6.25 order (since you want a $5 
bill back) and get told you gave her too much money and get 4 $1 
bills bills back from the $10 bill and your original $1 bill is not 
used (ie: You get $5 in $1 bills as change not the $5 bill you 
wanted).


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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Robert A. Rosenberg]

At 07:47 -0600 on 08/11/2008, Howard Brazee wrote about Re: 
California's COBOL payroll system:



 We no longer need to memorize books


Unless you live in the world of Fahrenheit 451 (or if you live in 
Europe Centigrade 233).


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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Robert A. Rosenberg]

At 08:58 -0500 on 08/11/2008, Jeff Holst wrote about Re: California's 
COBOL payroll system:



Back when I was in college studying physics, we referred to things with twist
or spin as having right- or left-handed spin. As one might expect, 
the initial for right-handed was r, but the initial for left-handed 
was s, for sinister. (Look up the origins of that word.)


Which is why the International NOT/NO Symbol uses a "Bar Sinister" Slash.

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Robert A. Rosenberg]

At 06:47 -0500 on 08/11/2008, Chase, John wrote about Re: 
California's COBOL payroll system:



"Righty-tighty" and "Lefty-loosy".  Until you encounter left-hand
threads..


Trivia - The New York City Subway controls (controlled?) the theft of 
their Light Bulbs by having them made with reverse threads so they 
were useless in standard sockets.


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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Robert A. Rosenberg]

At 20:54 + on 08/10/2008, Warren Brown wrote about Re: 
California's COBOL payroll system:


My wife teaches fifth grade and tells me that her kids can't tell 
time on an analog clock.  They grew up in a digital world!


Talking again about an Isaac Asimov story, he once wrote one that 
hinged on the ability to misread/misinterpret the time displayed by a 
Digital Clock. The time in the story was 5:50 PM but some witnesses 
remembered it as 10 (minutes) to 6PM while others remembered it as 
Half past 5PM. The difference was that the "Half past 5PM" witness 
was an Accountant and was thinking of it as being $5.50 (thus 5 1/2).


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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 08/15/2008
   at 09:52 PM, Paul Gilmartin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Spell Checker corrected it to "diesel".

What did it "correct" widdershins to?
 
-- 
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Ivan Warren]

Paul Gilmartin wrote:



At one time the words "widdershins" and "soleil" were used - BC (before
clocks).
  

What happened to deasil?



Spell Checker corrected it to "diesel".

  
In that context, deiseil (Scottish Gaeilic - clockwise/sunwise - 
contrary to "widdershins") would seem to be the proper way to put it. 
Did you mean "diesel" (the petroleum distillate) ? but this has nothing 
to do here !


And neither of those terms have anything to do with IBM Mainframe ;) 
(except IBM Mainframes always seem to be going counter-clockwise - but 
eventually reaching 12 O'clock position every 12 hours).


--Ivan

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Warren Brown]

When you buy a car, how long is it a 'new car'?  The new math came out forty 
years ago! No one ever said that the old math was wrong.  'Just wondering how 
long the new math will be new.

 BTW purchased regular gas for $3.59 today. (Maryland, just outside DC) 

Warren Brown
-- Original message from "Chase, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
-- 


> > -Original Message- 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour 
> J.) 
> > 
> > >Must be more of the "new math". I guess I missed the 
> > lecture wherein 
> > >it was taught that "x" as an operator means "arithmetic add" (but I 
> > >remember that "+" was used to signify "logical AND", 
> > 
> > No, "+" is used to signify "logical or", except when it is 
> > used to signify "exclusive or". It's "*" that is used to 
> > signify logical and when "^" 
> > isn't available for the purpose. 
> 
> Oh "They give you cash. That's just like real money, only better." 
> (Yogi Berra in an AFLAC commercial) 
> 
> -jc- 
> 
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour
J.)
> 
> >Must be more of the "new math".  I guess I missed the 
> lecture wherein 
> >it was taught that "x" as an operator means "arithmetic add" (but I 
> >remember that "+" was used to signify "logical AND",
> 
> No, "+" is used to signify "logical or", except when it is 
> used to signify "exclusive or". It's "*" that is used to 
> signify logical and when "^"
> isn't available for the purpose.

Oh  "They give you cash.  That's just like real money, only better."
(Yogi Berra in an AFLAC commercial)

-jc-

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour
J.)
> 
> >At one time the words "widdershins" and "soleil" were used - 
> BC (before 
> >clocks).
> 
> What happened to deasil?

When the price exceeded $5/gal I parked it and bought a Harley.

-jc-

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:58:24 -0300, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:

>In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 08/11/2008
>   at 07:49 AM, Howard Brazee said:
>
>>At one time the words "widdershins" and "soleil" were used - BC (before
>>clocks).
>
>What happened to deasil?
>
Spell Checker corrected it to "diesel".

-- gil

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 08/11/2008
   at 08:39 AM, "Chase, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Must be more of the "new math".  I guess I missed the lecture wherein it
>was taught that "x" as an operator means "arithmetic add" (but I remember
>that "+" was used to signify "logical AND",

No, "+" is used to signify "logical or", except when it is used to signify
"exclusive or". It's "*" that is used to signify logical and when "^"
isn't available for the purpose.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 08/11/2008
   at 08:00 AM, "Schwartz, Alan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>My favorite scene was when the mathematician was asked how much is 9x7.
>With pencil to paper he answered 16.  The generals used their
>calculators and came up with the same answer

That would be more impressive if the answer were correct.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 08/11/2008
   at 07:49 AM, Howard Brazee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>At one time the words "widdershins" and "soleil" were used - BC (before
>clocks).

What happened to deasil?
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Kirk Talman]

Right hand screw rule.

If the thumb of your right hand is the screw, then your fingers describe 
the direction to tighten.

Also works for physics,  If thumb of right hand is current in a straight 
wire (electron flow is opposite of current) then the fingers describe the 
magnetic field "lines".

IBM Mainframe Discussion List  wrote on 08/11/2008 
09:53:58 AM:

> On 11 Aug 2008 04:47:43 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chase, John) wrote:
> 
> >
> >"Righty-tighty" and "Lefty-loosy".  Until you encounter left-hand
> >threads..
> 
> Since I know which way to turn them, I can infer which way is "right"
> or "left" in your vernacular. But otherwise, I would have to guess
> as it would depend on whether the wrench handle was up or down.



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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[(IBM Mainframe Discussion List)]

 
 
In a message dated 8/11/2008 8:08:40 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>I did not allow my daughter to use a calculator until she was in college!  
There I had no control
 
I think it is all right to use a calculator if one is still adept at the  
pencil and paper method.  E.g., I use a really big one whenever I need to  do 
basic arithmetic on binary numbers.  It's called a mainframe  computer.
 
Now that we're back on topic, how about WE KILL THIS THREAD?
 
Bill  Fairchild
Rocket Software





**Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? 
Read reviews on AOL Autos.  
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut000517 
)

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Ted MacNEIL]

>IMNSHO, there's no substitute for these kinds of basic skills. 
>Arithmetic, reading and writing are basic skills that form the 
foundation for other "more relevant" skills.

To a certain extent, I agree.
But, just because I can calculate standard deviation, mean, & variance by hand, 
doesn't mean that I should have to!
You need the basic skills, but more to ensure that the output from your tools 
is correct.

A couple of years ago, there was an article in a US business magazine pointing 
out that, aside from fraud, the biggest reason for re-statement of financial 
results was over-dependence on spreadsheets maintained by secretariess & admins 
with no financial backgrounds.
Even simple column/row cross-checks were either not used or ignored.
It was only when somebody with the skills audited them that the errors were 
found out.
Usually, after publication.
Oops!

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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[OT] - FFCP / Fast Food Communication Protocol (Was : California's COBOL payroll system)

[Ivan Warren]

I must respectfully disagree. When my "server" at the Golden Arches 
doesn't understand that "half a dozen" McNuggets is the same as "Six", 
and she's in her early twenties, I have to cast certain aspersions
I don't think I agree with your Ron. McD. analogy when I believe you 
simply broke the standard communication protocol in place for that 
particular task.


As you stated, you asked for "half a dozen".. Ok.. You asked for your 
peer to enter a cognitive task he/she wasn't ready for.


In my locale (namely France), when ordering that same item from that 
same outlet, we usually ask for 'a box of six' (without even indicating 
the items that are to go in the box) - because here, McNuggets are the 
only items served in boxes. So the (unwritten) protocol is basically : 
indicate the words 'box of' followed by a number being either 6, 9 or 12 
(since these are the servings here) and you will get what you asked for 
(Because I'm french, I'll ask for "une boite de six").


If you were to ask (and no - don't do it) for a 'cuboid container filled 
with items of deep fried ground Gallus gallus flesh in a number being 
equal to the product of the first 2 prime numbers', *even* if the clerk 
knows exactly what each of these terms mean, you will most probably get 
a puzzled look (and possibly get expelled if you go this far).


What I mean, is that I doubt that the person you were talking to didn't 
know that 12/2=6, or that even 'half a dozen' is also 6.. it's just that 
you weren't using the proper protocol for someone who is essentially 
doing a brain-dead job to make a living (or possibly pay for college) 
and who is probably thinking about something entirely different while 
still doing this job as a secondary task requiring little cognitive 
processing.


The best example I can give about this, is, that albeit being somewhat 
fluent in the English language, it is usually fairly difficult for me to 
order stuff from fast food joints in, say, the U.S. of A. - because I 
don't know the right protocol.. (although it only takes me a couple 
visits to (re-)grasp the primitives - and then extrapolate enough of the 
protocol to get served in a timely fashion).


--Ivan

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Rick Fochtman]

---
I have a fantasy that when spinning wheels were introduced Luddites 
protested that their children would lose the skill of spinning yarn by 
hand and the deep understanding of the nature of yarn.


I can neither spin yarn by hand nor by wheel, nor weave cloth, nor 
tailor my own clothing, nor plow my garden with oxen, nor hunt the wooly 
mammoth for food. I can do arithmetic by hand, or with a slide rule. But 
all these things must be displaced to accommodate more relevant topics 
in our educational curricula. Roman numerals and "English" weights and 
measures should be soon to go, though an erudite, now infrequent, 
contributor to this list is apt to protest. Roman numerals, abaci, 
Napier's Bones, slide rules and Curta calculators are topics for history 
of mathematics, not the mainstream.


I must respectfully disagree. When my "server" at the Golden Arches 
doesn't understand that "half a dozen" McNuggets is the same as "Six", 
and she's in her early twenties, I have to cast certain aspersions on 
basic education in this country. When she can't make change because the 
power failed and she can't do basic arithmetic, I have to wonder what's 
being taught in school. When half, if not more, can't read an analog 
clock, I get disgusted. These things are all basic skills that should be 
learned by 4th grade; even reading your utility meters. (So many bills 
are based on "estimates" that being able to compare estimates with 
actual readings is a highly desirable skill.) What happens when your 
calculator batteries go dead? Or when it's home on the kitchen table and 
you're at the grocery store trying to figure out unit prices?


IMNSHO, there's no substitute for these kinds of basic skills. 
Arithmetic, reading and writing are basic skills that form the 
foundation for other "more relevant" skills.


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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Howard Brazee
> 
> On 11 Aug 2008 04:47:43 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chase, John) wrote:
> 
> >
> >"Righty-tighty" and "Lefty-loosy".  Until you encounter left-hand 
> >threads..
> 
> Since I know which way to turn them, I can infer which way is "right"
> or "left" in your vernacular. But otherwise, I would have to guess
> as it would depend on whether the wrench handle was up or down.

You don't turn the wrench; you turn the fastener.  The wrench is just a
lever.

-jc-

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Howard Brazee]

On 11 Aug 2008 06:07:54 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Schwartz,
Alan) wrote:

>My favorite scene was when the mathematician was asked how much is 9x7. With
>pencil to paper he answered 16.  The generals used their calculators and
>came up with the same answer and then asked him "How do you know the answer
>will always be 16?"

While that was funny - it was less believable than the rest of the
story.   

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Jeff Holst]

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 07:49:05 -0600, Howard Brazee 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>On 10 Aug 2008 15:33:56 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Don Leahy) wrote:
>
>>I remember when I first taught my son how to use a wrench.  I had to
>>explain to him the difference between "clockwise" and
>>"counter-clockwise".  It was not obvious to him because of digital
>>clocks.
>
>At one time the words "widdershins" and "soleil" were used - BC
>(before clocks).
>
Back when I was in college studying physics, we referred to things with twist 
or spin as having right- or left-handed spin. As one might expect, the initial 
for 
right-handed was r, but the initial for left-handed was s, for sinister. (Look 
up 
the origins of that word.)

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Howard Brazee]

On 8 Aug 2008 13:04:46 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Harrison)
wrote:

>This has got to be at least the 3rd time we've had the IEFBR14 bug 
>discussion since I joined this list.  ;-)

Newcomer.

But it's a fun discussion.

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Joe Fragale]

enough of this one can we kill this thread PLEASE ?



Howard Brazee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
08/11/2008 09:53 AM
Please respond to
IBM Mainframe Discussion List 


To
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Subject
Re: California's COBOL payroll system






On 11 Aug 2008 04:47:43 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chase, John) wrote:

>
>"Righty-tighty" and "Lefty-loosy".  Until you encounter left-hand
>threads..

Since I know which way to turn them, I can infer which way is "right"
or "left" in your vernacular. But otherwise, I would have to guess
as it would depend on whether the wrench handle was up or down.

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Howard Brazee]

To use a slide rule you need to learn:

1.   Estimating your result to the nearest power of 10.
2.   Understand significant digits.
3.   Proportion and inverse proportion.

Those are useful things to know (some turn into laws).


What other math (beyond arithmetic) do 95% of the population ever need
to know as adults?

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Howard Brazee]

On 11 Aug 2008 04:47:43 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chase, John) wrote:

>
>"Righty-tighty" and "Lefty-loosy".  Until you encounter left-hand
>threads..

Since I know which way to turn them, I can infer which way is "right"
or "left" in your vernacular. But otherwise, I would have to guess
as it would depend on whether the wrench handle was up or down.

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Howard Brazee]

Speaking of clocks and computers - I never set a clock nor an alarm to
12:00 unless it is a 24 hour clock.

There is no such time as 12:00 PM nor 12:00 AM.   12:00 M and 12:00 MM
are valid, but 12:00 is neither before meridian (noon), nor after
meridian (noon).And I don't want to have my alarm clock 12 hours
off because my assumption and the clock's assumption are different.

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Howard Brazee]

On 10 Aug 2008 15:33:56 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Don Leahy) wrote:

>I remember when I first taught my son how to use a wrench.  I had to
>explain to him the difference between "clockwise" and
>"counter-clockwise".  It was not obvious to him because of digital
>clocks.

At one time the words "widdershins" and "soleil" were used - BC
(before clocks).

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Howard Brazee]

On 10 Aug 2008 13:54:38 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Warren Brown) wrote:

>My wife teaches fifth grade and tells me that her kids can't tell time on an 
>analog clock.  They grew up in a digital world! Most analog devices are more 
>accurate than their digital counter parts. Take the clock, there is an 
>infinite number of places between the 12 and the 1.


Times change - before books were common lots of literature was
memorized.   We no longer need to memorize books, and most people
can't.

When we all have implants connected to instant access to smart
libraries, we will concentrate our efforts in different directions.

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Schwartz, Alan
> 
> My favorite scene was when the mathematician was asked how 
> much is 9x7. With pencil to paper he answered 16.  The 
> generals used their calculators and came up with the same 
> answer and then asked him "How do you know the answer will 
> always be 16?"

Must be more of the "new math".  I guess I missed the lecture wherein it
was taught that "x" as an operator means "arithmetic add" (but I
remember that "+" was used to signify "logical AND", and apparently
"overloading" hadn't been invented yet).  Guess my calculator is
obsolete, too; it uses "X" for multiplication and "+" for addition.

-jc-

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Warren Brown]

I did not allow my daughter to use a calculator until she was in college! There 
I had no control.

Warren
-- Original message from Joe Aulph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
-- 


> I have more than once tutored my own children, neighbors children, etc.. in 
> mathematics and basic algebra. 
> The first thing i always do is take away the calculator! 
> 
> Cheers, 
> 
> Joe Aulph, 
> Senior Systems Programmer: 
> 850-487-8945 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> 
> Warren Brown 
> 
> Sent by: IBM To 
> Mainframe IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU 
> Discussion List cc 
> > .EDU> Subject 
> Re: California's COBOL payroll 
> system 
> 08/10/2008 04:54 
> PM 
> 
> 
> Please respond to 
> IBM Mainframe 
> Discussion List 
> > .EDU> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My wife teaches fifth grade and tells me that her kids can't tell time on 
> an analog clock. They grew up in a digital world! Most analog devices are 
> more accurate than their digital counter parts. Take the clock, there is an 
> infinite number of places between the 12 and the 1. 
> -- Original message from Thomas Berg : 
> ------ 
> 
> 
> > == Robert A. Rosenberg == wrote 2008-08-09 06:29: 
> > > At 11:43 AM -0500 on 8/6/08, Rick Fochtman wrote about Re: California's 
> 
> > > COBOL payroll system: 
> > > 
> > > When second-graders are permitted to use calculators for arithmetic 
> > > 
> > > Something predicted over 60 years ago in a story by Science Fiction 
> > > Author Isaac Asimov. In his story, set in the far future, everyone uses 
> 
> > > a Hand Calculator and the concept of being able to do arithmetic by 
> hand 
> > > is not even imagined until a mathematical genus reinvents arithmetic by 
> 
> > > studying the results produced by his Hand Calculator. 
> > 
> > That story is hilarious ! :) 
> > 
> > 
> > Thomas Berg 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > __ 
> > 
> > Mundus Vult Decipi 
> > __ 
> > They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary 
> safety 
> > deserve neither liberty nor safety. 
> > - Benjamin Franklin 
> > 
> > Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. 
> > - Groucho Marx 
> > 
> > -- 
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, 
> > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO 
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> > 
> 
> -- 
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Schwartz, Alan]

Story title is The Feeling of Power and is available is a book of short
stories called Nine Tomorrows.  The general conclusion to the story is that
space warfare will improve due to not needing huge computers in rockets now
that people can do the calculations.  

My favorite scene was when the mathematician was asked how much is 9x7. With
pencil to paper he answered 16.  The generals used their calculators and
came up with the same answer and then asked him "How do you know the answer
will always be 16?"

Alan 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Thomas Berg
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 10:34 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system

==  Robert A. Rosenberg  ==  wrote2008-08-09 06:29:
> At 11:43 AM -0500 on 8/6/08, Rick Fochtman wrote about Re: California's 
> COBOL payroll system:
> 
> When second-graders are permitted to use calculators for arithmetic
> 
> Something predicted over 60 years ago in a story by Science Fiction 
> Author Isaac  Asimov. In his story, set in the far future, everyone uses 
> a Hand Calculator and the concept of being able to do arithmetic by hand 
> is not even imagined until a mathematical genus reinvents arithmetic by 
> studying the results produced by his Hand Calculator.

That story is hilarious !  :)


Thomas Berg

-- 

__

 Mundus Vult Decipi
__

  They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
  - Benjamin Franklin

  Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
  - Groucho Marx

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Joe Aulph]

I have more than once tutored my own children, neighbors children, etc.. in
mathematics and basic algebra.
The first thing i always do is take away the calculator!

Cheers,

Joe Aulph,
Senior Systems Programmer:
850-487-8945
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


   
 Warren Brown  
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
 Sent by: IBM   To 
 Mainframe IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Discussion Listcc 
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 .EDU> Subject 
   Re: California's COBOL payroll  
       system  
 08/10/2008 04:54  
 PM
   
   
 Please respond to 
   IBM Mainframe   
  Discussion List  
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   .EDU>   
   
   




My wife teaches fifth grade and tells me that her kids can't tell time on
an analog clock.  They grew up in a digital world! Most analog devices are
more accurate than their digital counter parts. Take the clock, there is an
infinite number of places between the 12 and the 1.
-- Original message from Thomas Berg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
--


> == Robert A. Rosenberg == wrote 2008-08-09 06:29:
> > At 11:43 AM -0500 on 8/6/08, Rick Fochtman wrote about Re: California's

> > COBOL payroll system:
> >
> > When second-graders are permitted to use calculators for arithmetic
> >
> > Something predicted over 60 years ago in a story by Science Fiction
> > Author Isaac Asimov. In his story, set in the far future, everyone uses

> > a Hand Calculator and the concept of being able to do arithmetic by
hand
> > is not even imagined until a mathematical genus reinvents arithmetic by

> > studying the results produced by his Hand Calculator.
>
> That story is hilarious ! :)
>
>
> Thomas Berg
>
> --
>
> __
>
> Mundus Vult Decipi
> __
> They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety.
> - Benjamin Franklin
>
> Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
> - Groucho Marx
>
> --
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> send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
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>

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Gerhard Postpischil
> 
> Don Leahy wrote:
> > I remember when I first taught my son how to use a wrench.  
> I had to 
> > explain to him the difference between "clockwise" and 
> > "counter-clockwise".  It was not obvious to him because of digital 
> > clocks.
> 
> You need to buy him a true digital clock, one where the 
> numbers flip down. This will teach him that clockwise is 
> down, and anti-clockwise is up 
> 
> I've always preferred deasil and withershins. 

"Righty-tighty" and "Lefty-loosy".  Until you encounter left-hand
threads..

-jc-

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Warren Brown]

Anything is better than the current LCD clocks.  I think the peak of technology 
for digital were the LED ones.  LCD uses much less power but the LED's were 
beautiful.  Check ebay and you'll find the old LED Heathkit clocks sells for 
over $300.00 (the ones in synch with the atomic clock in Boulder).  On a good 
day you can find a LCD one for less than a dollar. 

The peak for anolog clocks were the ones that self corrected each hour.  They 
were built by the International Tabulating Company.

I am aware the a government agency that spent over a million dollars to get a 
system to synchronise their computer system with the atomic clock.

Warren Brown
-- Original message from Gerhard Postpischil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
-- 


> Don Leahy wrote: 
> > I remember when I first taught my son how to use a wrench. I had to 
> > explain to him the difference between "clockwise" and 
> > "counter-clockwise". It was not obvious to him because of digital 
> > clocks. 
> 
> You need to buy him a true digital clock, one where the numbers 
> flip down. This will teach him that clockwise is down, and 
> anti-clockwise is up 
> 
> I've always preferred deasil and withershins. 
> 
> 
> 
> Gerhard Postpischil 
> Bradford, VT 
> 
> -- 
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Gerhard Postpischil]

Don Leahy wrote:

I remember when I first taught my son how to use a wrench.  I had to
explain to him the difference between "clockwise" and
"counter-clockwise".  It was not obvious to him because of digital
clocks.


You need to buy him a true digital clock, one where the numbers 
flip down. This will teach him that clockwise is down, and 
anti-clockwise is up 


I've always preferred deasil and withershins. 



Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:54:21 +, Warren Brown wrote:

> Most analog devices are more accurate than their digital counter parts. Take 
> the clock, there is an infinite number of places between the 12 and the 1.
>
That's not accuracy; that's precision.  Nowadays both the clock with the
digital display and the clock with the analog display are apt to have
quartz crystal frequency reference and digital innards, and thus to be
similarly accurate.

>> == Robert A. Rosenberg == wrote 2008-08-09 06:29:
>> > At 11:43 AM -0500 on 8/6/08, Rick Fochtman wrote about Re: California's
>> > COBOL payroll system:
>> >
>> > When second-graders are permitted to use calculators for arithmetic
>> >
I have a fantasy that when spinning wheels were introduced Luddites
protested that their children would lose the skill of spinning yarn
by hand and the deep understanding of the nature of yarn.

I can neither spin yarn by hand nor by wheel, nor weave cloth, nor
tailor my own clothing, nor plow my garden with oxen, nor hunt the
wooly mammoth for food.  I can do arithmetic by hand, or with a
slide rule.  But all these things must be displaced to accommodate
more relevant topics in our educational curricula.  Roman numerals
and "English" weights and measures should be soon to go, though an
erudite, now infrequent, contributor to this list is apt to protest.
Roman numerals, abaci, Napier's Bones, slide rules and Curta
calculators are topics for history of mathematics, not the
mainstream.

-- gil

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Don Leahy]

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Warren Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My wife teaches fifth grade and tells me that her kids can't tell time on an 
> analog clock.  They grew up in a digital world! Most analog devices are more 
> accurate than their digital counter parts. Take the clock, there is an 
> infinite number of places between the 12 and the 1.

I remember when I first taught my son how to use a wrench.  I had to
explain to him the difference between "clockwise" and
"counter-clockwise".  It was not obvious to him because of digital
clocks.

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Warren Brown]

Hmmm, these new drivers scare me.  Never thought about what you just said.

Warren
-- Original message from "McKown, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
-- 


> > -Original Message- 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Warren Brown 
> > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 3:54 PM 
> > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU 
> > Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system 
> > 
> > My wife teaches fifth grade and tells me that her kids can't 
> > tell time on an analog clock. They grew up in a digital 
> > world! Most analog devices are more accurate than their 
> > digital counter parts. Take the clock, there is an infinite 
> > number of places between the 12 and the 1. 
> 
> How will they ever learn to drive??? "Keep you hands on the 10 and 2 
> positions of the wheel." will be meaningless. Or fight in a plane? "He's 
> on your 2 o'clock position!" That would be 60 degrees to the right of 
> center, I think. It is the end of civilization as we know it!! 
> 
> -- 
> John McKown 
> Senior Systems Programmer 
> HealthMarkets 
> Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage 
> Administrative Services Group 
> Information Technology 
> 
> The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged 
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Warren Brown]

You are correct, there are not infinite markings but there is a process known 
as 'interpolating' that allows you to estimate the values between the markings. 
I asked my school teacher what did interpolating mean. She said "I don't 
know!". I am enjoying this tread but admit it is just useless memories in 
todays world. I have 18 months to work.  Then I am going to teach math, science 
and history for free.

Warren
-- Original message from Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
-- 


> >Most analog devices are more accurate than their 
> > digital counter parts. Take the clock, there is an infinite 
> > number of places between the 12 and the 1. 
> 
> Yes, but there are not an infinite amount of markings. 
> IIRC, the accuracy is at best 0.5 times the smallest gradient. 
> 
> - 
> Too busy driving to stop for gas! 
> 
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Most analog devices are more accurate than their 
> digital counter parts. Take the clock, there is an infinite 
> number of places between the 12 and the 1.

Yes, but there are not an infinite amount of markings.
IIRC, the accuracy is at best 0.5 times the smallest gradient.

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Warren Brown
> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 3:54 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system
> 
> My wife teaches fifth grade and tells me that her kids can't 
> tell time on an analog clock.  They grew up in a digital 
> world! Most analog devices are more accurate than their 
> digital counter parts. Take the clock, there is an infinite 
> number of places between the 12 and the 1.

How will they ever learn to drive??? "Keep you hands on the 10 and 2
positions of the wheel." will be meaningless. Or fight in a plane? "He's
on your 2 o'clock position!" That would be 60 degrees to the right of
center, I think. It is the end of civilization as we know it!!

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Warren Brown]

My wife teaches fifth grade and tells me that her kids can't tell time on an 
analog clock.  They grew up in a digital world! Most analog devices are more 
accurate than their digital counter parts. Take the clock, there is an infinite 
number of places between the 12 and the 1.
-- Original message from Thomas Berg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
-- 


> == Robert A. Rosenberg == wrote 2008-08-09 06:29: 
> > At 11:43 AM -0500 on 8/6/08, Rick Fochtman wrote about Re: California's 
> > COBOL payroll system: 
> > 
> > When second-graders are permitted to use calculators for arithmetic 
> > 
> > Something predicted over 60 years ago in a story by Science Fiction 
> > Author Isaac Asimov. In his story, set in the far future, everyone uses 
> > a Hand Calculator and the concept of being able to do arithmetic by hand 
> > is not even imagined until a mathematical genus reinvents arithmetic by 
> > studying the results produced by his Hand Calculator. 
> 
> That story is hilarious ! :) 
> 
> 
> Thomas Berg 
> 
> -- 
> 
> __ 
> 
> Mundus Vult Decipi 
> __ 
> They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
> deserve neither liberty nor safety. 
> - Benjamin Franklin 
> 
> Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. 
> - Groucho Marx 
> 
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Thomas Berg]

==  Robert A. Rosenberg  ==  wrote2008-08-09 06:29:
At 11:43 AM -0500 on 8/6/08, Rick Fochtman wrote about Re: California's 
COBOL payroll system:


When second-graders are permitted to use calculators for arithmetic

Something predicted over 60 years ago in a story by Science Fiction 
Author Isaac  Asimov. In his story, set in the far future, everyone uses 
a Hand Calculator and the concept of being able to do arithmetic by hand 
is not even imagined until a mathematical genus reinvents arithmetic by 
studying the results produced by his Hand Calculator.


That story is hilarious !  :)


Thomas Berg

--

__

Mundus Vult Decipi
__

 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety.
 - Benjamin Franklin

 Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
 - Groucho Marx

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Robert A. Rosenberg]

At 11:43 AM -0500 on 8/6/08, Rick Fochtman wrote about Re: 
California's COBOL payroll system:


When second-graders are permitted to use calculators for arithmetic

Something predicted over 60 years ago in a story by Science Fiction 
Author Isaac  Asimov. In his story, set in the far future, everyone 
uses a Hand Calculator and the concept of being able to do arithmetic 
by hand is not even imagined until a mathematical genus reinvents 
arithmetic by studying the results produced by his Hand Calculator.


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IEFBR14 (was: California's COBOL payroll system)

[Patrick O'Keefe]

On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 16:05:24 -0400, Jim Harrison 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>This has got to be at least the 3rd time we've had the IEFBR14 bug
>discussion since I joined this list.  ;-)
>...

Oh.  A newby.  Welcome!   :-)

Stick around.; you'll see it again. 
But don't expect it to catch up with system symbolics in submitted
jobs.   Or PARM length.

Pat O'Keefe

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Jim Harrison]

This has got to be at least the 3rd time we've had the IEFBR14 bug 
discussion since I joined this list.  ;-)


William H. Blair wrote the following on 8/8/2008 2:19 PM:

Gerhard Postpischil wrote:

  
The first version of IEFBR14 did not clear R15, making for 
interesting condition code test results in subsequent steps.



You have a great memory. 


Ed Finnell wrote:

  

IIRC there were APARs to BR14.



There were five or six just after it first shipped. Then
they botched it again in the next three or four releases
because they didn't pull in the changes for the existing
prior release PTFs. That battle was waged for years, and
we had to explain over and over to the next set of folks 
who just did not seem to get it why it was broken again.


But when was that? Release 9 or 14?  If I could remember 
whether or not IEFBR14 was in MVT, that would tell me.


  





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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[William H. Blair]

Gerhard Postpischil wrote:

> The first version of IEFBR14 did not clear R15, making for 
> interesting condition code test results in subsequent steps.

You have a great memory. 

Ed Finnell wrote:

> IIRC there were APARs to BR14.

There were five or six just after it first shipped. Then
they botched it again in the next three or four releases
because they didn't pull in the changes for the existing
prior release PTFs. That battle was waged for years, and
we had to explain over and over to the next set of folks 
who just did not seem to get it why it was broken again.

But when was that? Release 9 or 14?  If I could remember 
whether or not IEFBR14 was in MVT, that would tell me.

> No eye catcher, ALIGNMENT something, maybe RENT 

I remember those, too, but they are relatively recent 
bugs, much later than all those in the initial round. 
All this was BEFORE it finally settled down in I think 
Release 18 of OS/360. (The RENT problem came up first 
in Release 17, if I remember correctly.) 

When they first added the eyecatcher, they broke it
(S0C1 ABEND). At least one alignment problem was due
to the fact that they stuck a DS 0something before
the SR, and that caused the assembler to generate a
number of hex zeros. They tried to fix that by adding 
a B[ranch] at the very beginning, but forgot to setup
the base register. Then they fixed that, but changed
the base to R15, thereby destroying the zero that had
already been put there. They finally got it right but
you know how programmers are: they just can't leave 
well enough alone, and OS/VS provided new opportunity
to break it again, which they did.

When this was happening, PTFs came in the mail to the
branch office on cards (as object decks, literally).
Of course, the object deck for IEFBR14 was so small
that the cards were bent when they shrink wrapped 
them in that heavy plastic.  The CE asked them to
simply (re)mail them, and the next one arrived with
staples that attached the cards to the cover letter,
no doubt an over-eager secretary/mail room attendant. 
He had to punch a new object deck by hand; the 2540 
refused to read cards with staple holes correctly.
 
The RENT battle was interesting and took a long time.
It literally took months for them to understand that
anybody would even want to LOAD EP=IEFBR14 as opposed
to just "// EXEC PGM=IEFBR14".  This made the battle
to get them to make it RENT frustratingly difficult.
I don't think I had even thought about INCLUDE-ing a
copy of IEFBR14 after a CHANGE, which would have, of
course, made the resulting load module NORENT. That
sort of thing came later, by which time it was RENT.

> and it was left out of JBB4410 

That I do not remember, but I'm not surprised.

> Seems like eye catcher has gone away again.

You are correct:

TCB#10 RB#1 -- z/XDC TPUT INTERFACE 
XDC ===>  
_  _00E05000 0s (A.S.XXX) --- IEFBR14+0, @R15+0, PLPA+214000
_+0  0s  1BFF07FE  47F0F018 12C9C4C1  *.00..IDA*

*** Top of Data **
AMASPZAP  INSPECTS, MODIFIES, AND DUMPS CSECTS OR SPECIFIC
  DATA RECORDS ON DIRECT ACCESS STORAGE.
DUMPT IEFBR14 ALL 
 
**CCHHR- 063D13   RECORD LENGTH- 08  
  MEMBER NAME  IEFBR14   CSECT NAME  IEFBR14   
 00   1BFF 07FE   
  SR   BCR   
AMA113I COMPLETED DUMP REQUIREMENTS  
 
AMA100I AMASPZAP PROCESSING COMPLETED  
 ** Bottom of Data ***

That's OK. IEFBR14 really doesn't need anything more 
than what's there.  At one point -- I think around the
timeframe when IBM hatched the "Restricted Materials"
fiasco (IBM had requested that GUIDE post folks at the 
door for IBM presentations where "Restricted Materials
of IBM Corporation" were to be presented to ensure that 
only GUIDE attendees who worked for companies that had, 
in fact, licensed the [get this] _NOT YET AVAILABLE_ 
release of MVS/whatever to be discussed were allowed in;
their lawyers never seemed to understand the logical 
impossibility of doing that) -- IBM embedded a gigantic 
COPYRIGHT constant in IEFBR14, dramatically increasing
its size.  I think it was Keith Moe who pointed out to 
IBM (in both a presentation and a Requirement) that IBM 
could save boatloads-KB of below-the-line storage (and
enable that much VSCR, painlessly) merely by removing 
the duplicate (usually identical) copyright eyecatchers 
from JUST the modules that HAD to be loaded into PLPA 
by MVS. 

I remember when I met the IBM POK programmer at GUIDE who 
had worked on most of the early IEFBR14 APARs (she wasn't
the original author). She told me IEFBR14 had more APARs,
per line of code, than any other element in OS/360. There
were so many that it caused their program that calculate

Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ed Finnell
>  
> Seems like the choices are 'handwritten' or  outsource. The 
> one card the Governor has is special session to ram thru a  
> settlement.

Ask the Illinois governor about Special Sessions..

-jc-

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 8/8/2008 11:07:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

So there is some posturing on both side, but both sides would like to  avoid 
a 
juridical battle, which could drag on for years. 

Our  computers can't do it seems like a good face saving compromise.  


>>
The way the 2003 law reads if there is no  budget  then the
Comptroller is directed to pay the State  employees at minimum wage.
Due to revenue shortfalls(like most states)  they've got a $15Billion dollar 
shortfall and can't get together on a new  budget.
 
Seems like the choices are 'handwritten' or  outsource. The one card the 
Governor has is special session to ram thru a  settlement.







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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Alaimo Zani]

The Bee was probably not expecting to be read outside Sacramento and 
obmitted the backround relationg to California internal politics.

Our current republican governor can not run for re-election, due to term 
limits. 
But, even before this incident, there were rumors that the democrat state 
controller may run for governor at the next gubernatorial election.

Both positions are independent and equal according to the state constitution. 
The state controllor is elected by the people and does not answer to the 
governor (i.e. he is not a political appointee), but to the people who elected 
him/her.

The controller initial statement was "I will not pay attention to the 
governor's 
order."

So there is some posturing on both side, but both sides would like to avoid a 
juridical battle, which could drag on for years. 

Our computers can't do it seems like a good face saving compromise. 

After everybody knows that ONLY a P.C. can issue 200.000 paychecks 
flawlessly every month. 8-( 
  

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 8/8/2008 9:56:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

did not clear R15, making for 
interesting condition code test  results in subsequent steps.


>>
Right. Don't remember the sequence. Seems like  it was there and then wasn't 
there. Most of the FLAK came during the XA  migration and the IMS BMPs that 
were stubbing to it for uncoded  modules.







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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Gerhard Postpischil]

Ed Finnell wrote:
IIRC there were APARs to BR14. No eye catcher,  ALIGNMENT something, maybe 
RENT and it was left out of JBB4410  early  on. Seems like eye catcher has gone 
away again.


The first version of IEFBR14 did not clear R15, making for 
interesting condition code test results in subsequent steps.


Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 8/8/2008 9:36:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

At least until the fix to FIN APAR OA23920 is fixed in z/OS DFSMS  V1R10,
IEBGENER has bugs.


>>
IIRC there were APARs to BR14. No eye catcher,  ALIGNMENT something, maybe 
RENT and it was left out of JBB4410  early  on. Seems like eye catcher has gone 
away again.








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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:17:04 +, Warren Brown wrote:

>IEFBR14 has no bugs, IEBGENER has no bugs all PC programs have bugs
>
At least until the fix to FIN APAR OA23920 is fixed in z/OS DFSMS V1R10,
IEBGENER has bugs.

-- gil

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Warren Brown]

IEFBR14 has no bugs, IEBGENER has no bugs all PC programs have bugs
-- Original message from Howard Brazee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
-- 


> On 6 Aug 2008 07:40:48 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hal Merritt) 
> wrote: 
> 
> >As there is no program without bugs, there is no procedure that is 
> >foolproof. 
> 
> I suppose it depends on how you define "bugs". There are programs 
> that work as they are supposed to and do not fail. Some are simple 
> enough that it would be hard to twist a meaning of "bugs" to say those 
> program have bugs. 
> 
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 8/8/2008 9:00:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Some are simple
enough that it would be hard to twist a meaning of  "bugs" to say those
program have bugs.


>>
We had a big Maint release scheduled for MVT  and first call was
from Finance wanting to know where their  'numbers report' was?
Turns out we'd put a couple of fixes on COBOL  runtime that trapped
 data exceptions and prevented the  mini-dumps...  







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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Howard Brazee]

On 6 Aug 2008 07:40:48 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hal Merritt)
wrote:

>As there is no program without bugs, there is no procedure that is
>foolproof.

I suppose it depends on how you define "bugs".  There are programs
that work as they are supposed to and do not fail.  Some are simple
enough that it would be hard to twist a meaning of "bugs" to say those
program have bugs.

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Ken Porowski]

Is Pat Paulsen running? 

-Original Message-
McKown, John

If you don't vote, then you shouldn't complain. Somebody IS going to be
elected.

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chase, John
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 2:04 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
> > 
> > >But "we" elected those clowns.  What does that say about "us"?
> > 
> > We have to elect somebody!
> 
> Actually, we don't.  There is no _requirement_ to vote in the U.S.
> 
> -jc-

If you don't vote, then you shouldn't complain. Somebody IS going to be
elected.

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chase, John
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 1:52 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Harper
> > 
> > And here's a new story from the Sacramento Bee:
> > 
> > http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1135631.html
> > 
> > confirming that this is not a technical issue, but a 
> > political posturing issue.
> 
> But "we" elected those clowns.  What does that say about "us"?
> 
> -jc-

My favorite, very old, SciFi book on this was called "A Planet for
Texans" bu H. Beam Piper. Ah, to implement that for politicians.

ref: http://www.fictionwise.com/eBooks/eBook42852.htm?cache

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Hal Merritt]

"We have met the enemy and he is us" - Walt Kelly 

You either voted for idiots, or, through your inaction, allowed others
to vote for idiots.  (A shameless rip off of Isaac Asimov's First Law of
Robotics.)

Just kidding. Sorry.  




-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chase, John
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 1:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Harper
> 
> And here's a new story from the Sacramento Bee:
> 
> http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1135631.html
> 
> confirming that this is not a technical issue, but a 
> political posturing issue.

But "we" elected those clowns.  What does that say about "us"?

-jc-

 

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Actually, we don't.  There is no _requirement_ to vote in the U.S.

If you don't vote, you have NO right to complain about those in office.

I not missed any opportunity to vote in the 33 years siince I turned 18.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system - kill this thread

[Steve Comstock]

Tom Harper wrote:

I left because during a time of high inflation, the government decided
to break their own law about paying average wages. During a time of high
inflation in the early 1980's, we were given a two per cent pay raise,
when average salaries climbed much more than that. It amounted to a
twenty per cent pay cut. So I voted with my feet and left.

Tom Harper
IMS Utilities Development Team
NEON Enterprise Software, Inc.
Sugar Land, TX 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gary Green
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 1:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system

In other words, you got out in time?  Or before it got worse?




 On Wed Aug  6 13:55 , Tom Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:


Well, don't include "me" in your "we". I didn't elect them. I moved to
Texas in 1983.

Tom Harper
IMS Utilities Development Team
NEON Enterprise Software, Inc.
Sugar Land, TX


Hey, guys, can we kill this thread, unless it gets back
to something remotely resembling IBM mainframe topics.


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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Tom Harper]

I left because during a time of high inflation, the government decided
to break their own law about paying average wages. During a time of high
inflation in the early 1980's, we were given a two per cent pay raise,
when average salaries climbed much more than that. It amounted to a
twenty per cent pay cut. So I voted with my feet and left.

Tom Harper
IMS Utilities Development Team
NEON Enterprise Software, Inc.
Sugar Land, TX 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gary Green
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 1:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system

In other words, you got out in time?  Or before it got worse?




 On Wed Aug  6 13:55 , Tom Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:

>Well, don't include "me" in your "we". I didn't elect them. I moved to
>Texas in 1983.
>
>Tom Harper
>IMS Utilities Development Team
>NEON Enterprise Software, Inc.
>Sugar Land, TX
>

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
> 
> >But "we" elected those clowns.  What does that say about "us"?
> 
> We have to elect somebody!

Actually, we don't.  There is no _requirement_ to vote in the U.S.

-jc-

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Joe Aulph]

Well that means this November we have the chance, responsibility, to put in
a new set of clowns.
Yet another strong argument for term limits..

Joe A,



   
 "Chase, John" 
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 >  To 
 Sent by: IBM  IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Mainframe  cc 
 Discussion List   
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject 
 .EDU>     Re: California's COBOL payroll  
   system  
   
 08/06/2008 02:52  
 PM
   
   
 Please respond to 
   IBM Mainframe   
  Discussion List  
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   .EDU>   
   
   




> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Harper
>
> And here's a new story from the Sacramento Bee:
>
> http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1135631.html
>
> confirming that this is not a technical issue, but a
> political posturing issue.

But "we" elected those clowns.  What does that say about "us"?

-jc-

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Ted MacNEIL]

>But "we" elected those clowns.  What does that say about "us"?

We have to elect somebody!
The best of a bad bunch?


Q: What's the difference between a politician and a prostitute?
A: A politician does it to a million people at the same time.

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Gary Green]

In other words, you got out in time?  Or before it got worse?




 On Wed Aug  6 13:55 , Tom Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:

>Well, don't include "me" in your "we". I didn't elect them. I moved to
>Texas in 1983.
>
>Tom Harper
>IMS Utilities Development Team
>NEON Enterprise Software, Inc.
>Sugar Land, TX
>

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Tom Harper]

Well, don't include "me" in your "we". I didn't elect them. I moved to
Texas in 1983.

Tom Harper
IMS Utilities Development Team
NEON Enterprise Software, Inc.
Sugar Land, TX

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chase, John
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 1:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Harper
> 
> And here's a new story from the Sacramento Bee:
> 
> http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1135631.html
> 
> confirming that this is not a technical issue, but a 
> political posturing issue.

But "we" elected those clowns.  What does that say about "us"?

-jc-

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Harper
> 
> And here's a new story from the Sacramento Bee:
> 
> http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1135631.html
> 
> confirming that this is not a technical issue, but a 
> political posturing issue.

But "we" elected those clowns.  What does that say about "us"?

-jc-

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Gary Green]

.re 
>I agree 100%. Unfortunately, too many organizations depend on a "college 
>degree", rather than any demonstration of good sense or experience. Any 
>dummy with a MBA (which really means very little) can get a job in 
>management of nearly any organization

This reminds me of a contract I did once back in the 80's.  Although I was not 
qualified enough to be hired by a certain company because I did not have a 
college degree, I was qualified enough to charge them an arm and a leg to teach 
their BA's and MBA's how to write software, in COBOL no less, how to read 
dumps, how to design software, how to code JCL, heck, how to think!etc...

While I was a bit ticked when they turned me down for a fulltime job, the year 
before, I felt vindicated when they had to contract with me to teach those that 
were "more educated".

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Tom Harper]

And here's a new story from the Sacramento Bee:

http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1135631.html

confirming that this is not a technical issue, but a political posturing
issue.

Tom Harper
IMS Utilities Development Team
Neon Enterprise Software, Inc.
Sugar Land, TX 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of McKown, John
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 12:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system

The same story from the nytimes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/06/us/06computer.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

with a twist:


Even before his remarks to the Legislature, Mr. Chiang, a Democrat, had
made no secret of his dislike for the order by Mr. Schwarzenegger, a
Republican, saying he would refuse to follow it even if the state's
computers could handle the job. The governor, in turn, has threatened to
sue Mr. Chiang to force the pay cuts, saying Mr. Chiang was violating a
2003 California court decision mandating that state employees take
minimum wage if the Legislature does not pass a budget. 


--
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Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Ted MacNEIL]

>> >That conceded, Farber is not at idiot.

>> If not, he makes idiotic comments.

>Or he was trying to be funny, and the reporter just didn't catch it.

I didn't catch it, either.
This kind of comment directly affects my livelihood, when PHB's read, and 
believe.

-
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Jack . Hamilton]

IBM Mainframe Discussion List  wrote on 08/06/2008 
10:31:58 AM:

> >That conceded, Farber is not at idiot.

> If not, he makes idiotic comments.

Or he was trying to be funny, and the reporter just didn't catch it.



--
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[McKown, John]

The same story from the nytimes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/06/us/06computer.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

with a twist:


Even before his remarks to the Legislature, Mr. Chiang, a Democrat, had
made no secret of his dislike for the order by Mr. Schwarzenegger, a
Republican, saying he would refuse to follow it even if the state's
computers could handle the job. The governor, in turn, has threatened to
sue Mr. Chiang to force the pay cuts, saying Mr. Chiang was violating a
2003 California court decision mandating that state employees take
minimum wage if the Legislature does not pass a budget. 


--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Ted MacNEIL]

>That conceded, Farber is not at idiot.

If not, he makes idiotic comments.
-
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Warren Brown]

At the government agency where I work and at others that I know of, in 
Wasington DC and in Baltimore area there are plenty of programmers still 
writing COBOL programs
-- Original message from "Chase, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
-- 


> > -Original Message- 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman 
> > 
> > -- 
> > And people wonder why the Education system in this country is a mess? 
> > With idiots like teaching no wonder. All the COBOL 
> > programmers retired "centuries ago" yet there are still 
> > (some) schools teaching COBOL. I guess mathematics and logic 
> > are no longer required to become a Computer Science 
> > Professor, since COBOL hasn't even existed for one century, 
> > let alone multiple. 
> >  
> > Don't even get me started on the woes of the education system 
> > here. When second-graders are permitted to use calculators 
> > for arithmetic 
> > (As they are here!) 
> > 
> > Common sense is becomming a very uncommon virtue. In 
> > California, I think it's already extinct. 
> 
> Indeed, I think "common sense" has replaced "military intelligence" as 
> the prototypical oxymoron. 
> 
> -jc- 
> 
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Rick Fochtman]

--
There is a common saying, "those who do, do; those who can't, teach".

I've worked in an academic environment for 21 years (this hitch)
--
Sort of like when a baseball player's eyes go bad; they make him an 
umpire. :-)


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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman
> 
> --
> And people wonder why the Education system in this country is a mess? 
> With idiots like teaching no wonder. All the COBOL 
> programmers retired "centuries ago" yet there are still 
> (some) schools teaching COBOL. I guess mathematics and logic 
> are no longer required to become a Computer Science 
> Professor, since COBOL hasn't even existed for one century, 
> let alone multiple.
> 
> Don't even get me started on the woes of the education system 
> here. When second-graders are permitted to use calculators 
> for arithmetic 
> (As they are here!)
> 
> Common sense is becomming a very uncommon virtue. In 
> California, I think it's already extinct.

Indeed, I think "common sense" has replaced "military intelligence" as
the prototypical oxymoron.

-jc-

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Rick Fochtman]

-
As there is no program without bugs, there is no procedure that is 
foolproof. Even so, Mr Farber could be a late bloomer.


I'm no professor of anything, just a worker bee like most of us. But, 
after a decade or two, it becomes painfully obvious that the programming 
language is almost irrelevant. The success/failure of any project begins 
and ends with top management.


Blaming the programming language, workers, or phase of the moon bespeaks 
inept leadership.


I agree 100%. Unfortunately, too many organizations depend on a "college 
degree", rather than any demonstration of good sense or experience. Any 
dummy with a MBA (which really means very little) can get a job in 
management of nearly any organization, all too often to the ultimate 
detriment of his/her employers. The "shekel counters" and the lawyers 
have done irreparable harm, and continue to do so, to the detriment of 
those of us who actually are qualified (by experience) and WANT to do a 
good job. Personal pride in doing a good job is now secondary to fancy 
paper that means nothing in the "real world".


I still believe in discrimination; based on ability to do the job. Does 
that make me some sort of pariah???


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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Rick Fochtman]

--
And people wonder why the Education system in this country is a mess? 
With idiots like teaching no wonder. All the COBOL programmers retired 
"centuries ago" yet there are still (some) schools teaching COBOL. I 
guess mathematics and logic are no longer required to become a Computer 
Science Professor, since COBOL hasn't even existed for one century, let 
alone multiple.


Don't even get me started on the woes of the education system here. When 
second-graders are permitted to use calculators for arithmetic 
(As they are here!)


Common sense is becomming a very uncommon virtue. In California, I think 
it's already extinct.


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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Rugen, Len
> 
> There is a common saying, "those who do, do; those who can't, 
> teach". 

"Government corollary" (also applicable to academia):

"Those who can, do; those who cannot, teach.
And those who can't teach, administrate."

-jc-

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward Jaffe
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:40 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system
> 
> Chase, John wrote:
> > Apparently the required/desired changes involve 
> significantly more than
> > "just the numbers".
> >   
> 
> That's what they want everyone to think. Their system seems quite 
> capable of handling big fat pay raises every year. Why not pay 
> decreases? And, what has COBOL got to do with it? Code is code.
> 
> -- 
> Edward E Jaffe

Well, yes and no. COBOL is fairly easy. There are very few "idiomatic"
expressions. Many "idiotic" statements, but few "idiomatic". [grin]

But APL2 is indeed "write only".

--
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Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Edward Jaffe]

Chase, John wrote:

Apparently the required/desired changes involve significantly more than
"just the numbers".
  


That's what they want everyone to think. Their system seems quite 
capable of handling big fat pay raises every year. Why not pay 
decreases? And, what has COBOL got to do with it? Code is code.


--
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Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Edward Jaffe]

john gilmore wrote:

There are no Cobol programmers around anymore, Mr. Farber said. They retired 
centuries ago.


COBOL was invented less than a century ago. And, millions of new lines 
of COBOL code are written every year.


--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Dave Thorn]

He just replied to my email to the .net address.

Dave Thorn * Senior Technology Analyst * SunGard Computer Services * 600
Laurel Oak Road, Voorhees, NJ, 08043
Office 856 566-5412 * Mobile 609 781-0353 * Fax 856 566-3656
 
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-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Wayne Driscoll
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system

I found both, the cmu.edu is from the main CMU faculty page, and the
farber.net address is from the computer science college web site.  Like
many
of us, I am sure that he has even more addresses.

Wayne Driscoll
Product Developer
NOTE:  All opinions are strictly my own.




-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf
Of Steve Comstock
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:14 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system

Wayne Driscoll wrote:
> For those who might be interested in letting Mr. Farber know what you
think
> of his comments, his e-mail address is dfarber  cmu.edu.  
> 
> Wayne Driscoll
> Product Developer
> NOTE:  All opinions are strictly my own.

Hmmm. Someone else posted [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Where lies truth?



Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

   z/OS Application development made easier
 * Our classes include
+ How things work
+ Programming examples with realistic applications
+ Starter / skeleton code
+ Complete working programs
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+ Tips and techniques

==> Check out the Trainer's Friend Store to purchase z/OS  <==
==> application developer toolkits. Sample code in four<==
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Wayne Driscoll]

I found both, the cmu.edu is from the main CMU faculty page, and the
farber.net address is from the computer science college web site.  Like many
of us, I am sure that he has even more addresses.

Wayne Driscoll
Product Developer
NOTE:  All opinions are strictly my own.




-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Steve Comstock
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:14 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system

Wayne Driscoll wrote:
> For those who might be interested in letting Mr. Farber know what you
think
> of his comments, his e-mail address is dfarber  cmu.edu.  
> 
> Wayne Driscoll
> Product Developer
> NOTE:  All opinions are strictly my own.

Hmmm. Someone else posted [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Where lies truth?



Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

   z/OS Application development made easier
 * Our classes include
+ How things work
+ Programming examples with realistic applications
+ Starter / skeleton code
+ Complete working programs
+ Useful utilities and subroutines
+ Tips and techniques

==> Check out the Trainer's Friend Store to purchase z/OS  <==
==> application developer toolkits. Sample code in four<==
==> programming languages, JCL to Assemble or compile, <==
==> bind and test. <==
==>   http://www.trainersfriend.com/TTFStore/index.html<==

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Steve Comstock]

Wayne Driscoll wrote:

For those who might be interested in letting Mr. Farber know what you think
of his comments, his e-mail address is dfarber  cmu.edu.  


Wayne Driscoll
Product Developer
NOTE:  All opinions are strictly my own.


Hmmm. Someone else posted [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Where lies truth?



Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Wayne Driscoll]

For those who might be interested in letting Mr. Farber know what you think
of his comments, his e-mail address is dfarber  cmu.edu.  

Wayne Driscoll
Product Developer
NOTE:  All opinions are strictly my own.




-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of john gilmore
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:51 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: California's COBOL payroll system

I like David Farber's (of course impolitic) 'vacuum tubes' analogy.
 
>From this morning's New York Times:
 
But the California controller, John Chiang, says the state's payroll system
- which uses a programming throwback known as Cobol, or Common
Business-Oriented Language - is so antiquated it would take months to make
the changes to workers' checks. 
 
"In 2003, my office tried to see if we could reconfigure our system to do
such a task," Mr. Chiang told a State Senate committee on Monday. "And after
12 months, we stopped without a feasible solution." 
 
David J. Farber, a computer science professor at Carnegie Mellon University,
said using Cobol was roughly equivalent to having "a television with vacuum
tubes." 
 
"There are no Cobol programmers around anymore," Mr. Farber said. "They
retired centuries ago." John GilmoreAshland, MA 01721-1817USA
_
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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Rugen, Len]

There is a common saying, "those who do, do; those who can't,
teach". 

I've worked in an academic environment for 21 years (this hitch)


Len Rugen

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in
practice, there is." 
- Yogi Berra 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Hal Merritt
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 9:39 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system

As there is no program without bugs, there is no procedure that is
foolproof. Even so, Mr Farber could be a late bloomer. 

I'm no professor of anything, just a worker bee like most of us. But,
after a decade or two, it becomes painfully obvious that the programming
language is almost irrelevant. The success/failure of any project begins
and ends with top management. 

Blaming the programming language, workers, or phase of the moon bespeaks
inept leadership.   

Just my $0.02 

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Greg Shirey]

I think the New York Times reporter (and editor?) was probably not
familiar with the reputation of the person he was interviewing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_J._Farber

Regards
Greg Shirey
Ben E. Keith Co.  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Wayne Driscoll
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 9:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system

And people wonder why the Education system in this country is a mess?
With
idiots like teaching no wonder.  All the COBOL programmers retired
"centuries ago" yet there are still (some) schools teaching COBOL.  I
guess
mathematics and logic are no longer required to become a Computer
Science
Professor, since COBOL hasn't even existed for one century, let alone
multiple.

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Re: California's COBOL payroll system

[Hal Merritt]

As there is no program without bugs, there is no procedure that is
foolproof. Even so, Mr Farber could be a late bloomer. 

I'm no professor of anything, just a worker bee like most of us. But,
after a decade or two, it becomes painfully obvious that the programming
language is almost irrelevant. The success/failure of any project begins
and ends with top management. 

Blaming the programming language, workers, or phase of the moon bespeaks
inept leadership.   

Just my $0.02 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of john gilmore
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 9:06 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: California's COBOL payroll system

My posting of Farber's comments on COBOL was of course a provocation,
and he was certainly guilty of hyperbole:  I personally know a number of
unretired COBOL programmers.
 
That conceded, Farber is not at idiot.  Carnegie-Mellon has procedures
in place to ensure that no idiot becomes a full professor of computer
science.  They are filtered out at lower ranks.John GilmoreAshland, MA
01721-1817USA
_
 

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