Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-29 Thread Ed Gould
--- On Fri, 6/26/09, Edward Jaffe edja...@phoenixsoftware.com wrote:

 From: Edward Jaffe edja...@phoenixsoftware.com
 Subject: Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens
 To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
 Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 10:43 AM
 Ed Gould wrote:
  I had a job interview about 20 years ago at a place in
 California that handled top secret (and above data) all the
 time. I asked how they contacted IBM for support and how
 they handled dumps problems etc...The answer I got back was
 that they didn't contact IBM and you were expected to figure
 out the issue. I was at that time of the interview pretty
 sure I was not interested in it so I asked but without
 source how can you expect to figure out where the problem
 was and even if you could how could you fix it without
 telling IBM how to fix it. The answer was surprising 
 even to me. They said you don't.
  I shook my head and walked out and drove back to the
 airport and took the plane back and was so disgusted with
 myself for wasting my time on an interview that if I had
 been given an outline of all the restrictions that would be
 put on the job I would not have wasted my time.
    
 
 I have received dumps from top secret government
 organizations (both domestic and foreign) that have been
 programmatically redacted. The dumps were pre-formatted by
 the customer (the output of various IPCS commands against
 the original dump file). All names of things (userid,
 system, sysplex, NJE node, JES member, etc.) in the dump
 were replaced with the characters  in both hex and
 EBCDIC portions of each line. Amazingly, I have been able to
 solve problems using such dumps!
 


Ed:

Interesting thanks for the information. I am wondering how you handle stand 
alone dumps? 

I am not sure how anyone (thing?) could handle something like that or in a few 
cases GTF Trace . Both items would require a LOT of human checks,
of course there is always the issue of a vendor needing to see X and X is a top 
secret information. The vendor can just say well I cannot help the user as he 
refused (not a good word) to give ne the information I need to resolve the 
issue.

I am suggesting that certain aspects of a dump or (anything else for that 
matter) would be indecipherable to most people (even a cryptologist ) but to a 
person with a background in IBM dumps would be pretty much understandable. 

Can you see a program written to process standalone dumps tapes that could 
make any sort of close guess to what fields are let alone bits in control 
blocks? I am pretty sure I cannot.  Any program written probably would be on 
IBM's list of must get products.

Ed 




  

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-29 Thread Edward Jaffe

Ed Gould wrote:

--- On Fri, 6/26/09, Edward Jaffe edja...@phoenixsoftware.com wrote:
  

I have received dumps from top secret government
organizations (both domestic and foreign) that have been
programmatically redacted. The dumps were pre-formatted by
the customer (the output of various IPCS commands against
the original dump file). All names of things (userid,
system, sysplex, NJE node, JES member, etc.) in the dump
were replaced with the characters  in both hex and
EBCDIC portions of each line. Amazingly, I have been able to
solve problems using such dumps!





Ed:

Interesting thanks for the information. I am wondering how you handle stand 
alone dumps?
  


As I said, the customer issues the IPCS command and then sends the 
output through some sort of filtering program that redacts the 
information. (I believe there is also a manual review to be sure the 
program didn't miss anything.)


--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
edja...@phoenixsoftware.com
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-26 Thread Ron Hawkins
Ted,

Mate, we're on the same page on that one. I'm wondering if they'll provide
support for US residents that are not citizens... I better be ready with my
Social Security Number.

Ron

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of
 Ted MacNEIL
 Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:42 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
 Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens
 
 Ya know!
 Not everybody on this is a USA Citizen.
 Nor, do we live in the USA.
 I'm still trying to see where this helps me.
 
 (Flame me if you wish).
 
 But, I'd prefer to see this topic dropped.
 -
 Too busy driving to stop for gas!
 

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-26 Thread Edward Jaffe

Ed Gould wrote:

I had a job interview about 20 years ago at a place in California that handled 
top secret (and above data) all the time. I asked how they contacted IBM for 
support and how they handled dumps problems etc...The answer I got back was 
that they didn't contact IBM and you were expected to figure out the issue. I 
was at that time of the interview pretty sure I was not interested in it so I 
asked but without source how can you expect to figure out where the problem was 
and even if you could how could you fix it without telling IBM how to fix it. 
The answer was surprising  even to me. They said you don't.
I shook my head and walked out and drove back to the airport and took the plane 
back and was so disgusted with myself for wasting my time on an interview that 
if I had been given an outline of all the restrictions that would be put on the 
job I would not have wasted my time.
  


I have received dumps from top secret government organizations (both 
domestic and foreign) that have been programmatically redacted. The 
dumps were pre-formatted by the customer (the output of various IPCS 
commands against the original dump file). All names of things (userid, 
system, sysplex, NJE node, JES member, etc.) in the dump were replaced 
with the characters  in both hex and EBCDIC portions of each line. 
Amazingly, I have been able to solve problems using such dumps!


--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
edja...@phoenixsoftware.com
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-26 Thread Wayne Driscoll
In the days when paper dumps where still common, I remember getting a dump 
from a customer that looked liked a box of Swiss cheese.  Before sending 
us the dump, they went through it page by page and would cut out sections 
that contained data they felt was sensitive. 

===
Wayne Driscoll
OMEGAMON DB2 L3 Support/Development
wdrisco(AT)us.ibm.com
===



Edward Jaffe edja...@phoenixsoftware.com 
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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens






Ed Gould wrote:
 I had a job interview about 20 years ago at a place in California that 
handled top secret (and above data) all the time. I asked how they 
contacted IBM for support and how they handled dumps problems etc...The 
answer I got back was that they didn't contact IBM and you were expected 
to figure out the issue. I was at that time of the interview pretty sure I 
was not interested in it so I asked but without source how can you expect 
to figure out where the problem was and even if you could how could you 
fix it without telling IBM how to fix it. The answer was surprising  even 
to me. They said you don't.
 I shook my head and walked out and drove back to the airport and took 
the plane back and was so disgusted with myself for wasting my time on an 
interview that if I had been given an outline of all the restrictions that 
would be put on the job I would not have wasted my time.
 

I have received dumps from top secret government organizations (both 
domestic and foreign) that have been programmatically redacted. The 
dumps were pre-formatted by the customer (the output of various IPCS 
commands against the original dump file). All names of things (userid, 
system, sysplex, NJE node, JES member, etc.) in the dump were replaced 
with the characters  in both hex and EBCDIC portions of each line. 
Amazingly, I have been able to solve problems using such dumps!

-- 
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
edja...@phoenixsoftware.com
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-25 Thread Ed Gould
--- On Thu, 6/18/09, Rick Fochtman rfocht...@ync.net wrote:

From: Rick Fochtman rfocht...@ync.net
Subject: Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 12:41 PM

snip---

Edward Jaffe wrote:

 Ed Finnell wrote:
 
 We had a CE working 9370 support out of White Plains and he got sent on a 
 sevcrit to Montreal. Got stopped at customs and they confiscated his 'tool 
 kit' not made in Canada. He went by the hardware store on the way in and 
 bought a new one. Charged the customer retail rates with the clock running. 
 Nobody said a peep...
 
 
 I went to Edmonton, Alberta in the early 1990s to install some software at a 
 customer site. Canadian customs found my tape (this was before CDs  
 downloads), took me into a back room, and grilled me for at least an hour 
 about what I was carrying, why I was there, who I was meeting, etc. They 
 rifled through all of my bags and inspected *everything* right down to my 
 underwear. They had one of those little goose-neck desk lamps pointed at me 
 that were so cliche for interrogations on comedy shows. It was all I could do 
 to keep a straight face. I think they were upset that I wasn't taking them 
 seriously enough...
 
unsnip--
Like I keep saying: there's a fine line between security and paranoia; which 
side are we on?

-- Rick


Rick:
I had a job interview about 20 years ago at a place in California that handled 
top secret (and above data) all the time. I asked how they contacted IBM for 
support and how they handled dumps problems etc...The answer I got back was 
that they didn't contact IBM and you were expected to figure out the issue. I 
was at that time of the interview pretty sure I was not interested in it so I 
asked but without source how can you expect to figure out where the problem was 
and even if you could how could you fix it without telling IBM how to fix it. 
The answer was surprising  even to me. They said you don't.
I shook my head and walked out and drove back to the airport and took the plane 
back and was so disgusted with myself for wasting my time on an interview that 
if I had been given an outline of all the restrictions that would be put on the 
job I would not have wasted my time.




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Re: Where should processing be done was Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-22 Thread Galambos, Robert
As a important note. 


While we are talking about data from going to one country to another for
processing/storing etc. One also needs to remember when the data is used
develop/test/qa  'outside' the original jurisdiction, data masking
consideration is even more important.

According to  some laws as well as regulations/agreements between
various countries, organizations and generally speaking as well, the
data collected in one country and transferred to another, 'should' still
be handled as it would still be in the original jurisdiction control.
(as long as the 'target' jurisdiction laws are also adhered to)


(not a lawyer, but taken enough courses to be dangerous)

 
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Re: Where should processing be done was Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-22 Thread Howard Brazee
On 21 Jun 2009 15:05:18 -0700, eamacn...@yahoo.ca (Ted MacNEIL) wrote:

Maybe not yet, but there is a bill in front of Federal parliament that, if 
passed, won't even require a warrant to get the information to CSIS).

We'll be as safe and secure and free the other states that have state
control over information.

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Re: Where should processing be done was Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-22 Thread Bob Woodside
On Monday 22 June 2009, Howard Brazee wrote:
 On 21 Jun 2009 15:05:18 -0700, eamacn...@yahoo.ca (Ted MacNEIL) wrote:
 Maybe not yet, but there is a bill in front of Federal parliament
  that, if passed, won't even require a warrant to get the
  information to CSIS).

 We'll be as safe and secure and free the other states that have state
 control over information.

Scary thought.


- Bob

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Re: Where should processing be done was Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-21 Thread Ted MacNEIL
One example was Lakehead University in Thunder Bay, Ontario, who in a 
cost-savings measures, decided to take advantage of GoogleApps.
This caused a strike by academic professionals when they realized their
emails, documents, etc. would be entirely open to Homeland Security.
(AFAIK, CSIS is not so empowered; not so sure about the CSE (Communications 
Security Establishment Canada).

Maybe not yet, but there is a bill in front of Federal parliament that, if 
passed, won't even require a warrant to get the information to CSIS).
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-19 Thread Howard Brazee
On 17 Jun 2009 12:35:48 -0700, patrick.oke...@wamu.net (Patrick
O'Keefe) wrote:

If those are the US Government's rules then IBM would be foolish
not to set up such accounts, but the concept behind the rule
makes no sense.  It would make more sense (but would be 
impossible to implement) a rule that requires competency rather
than US citizenship.

Politics isn't concerned with competency, it is concerned with getting
elected.

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-19 Thread Howard Brazee
On 18 Jun 2009 10:43:47 -0700, rfocht...@ync.net (Rick Fochtman)
wrote:

Like I keep saying: there's a fine line between security and paranoia; 
which side are we on?

I don't think the line is fine at all.   It is vague and nebulous.


There's a fine line between standing next to a lake, and fishing.

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-18 Thread Ted MacNEIL
now I have a story I can tell about the er... um... *thoroughness* of the 
Canadian border authorities ...

Unfortunately, even before the heightened awareness (post-9/11), Canadian 
Customs Agents had the reputation of being the rudest in the world.
Odd, considering that, in general, Canadians are considered some of the 
politest people in the world (with some exceptions -- (8-{]}).
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-18 Thread Rick Fochtman

snip---

Edward Jaffe wrote:


Ed Finnell wrote:

We had a CE working 9370 support out of White Plains and he got sent 
on a sevcrit to Montreal. Got stopped at customs and they confiscated 
his 'tool kit' not made in Canada. He went by the hardware store on 
the way in and bought a new one. Charged the customer retail rates 
with the clock running. Nobody said a peep...



I went to Edmonton, Alberta in the early 1990s to install some 
software at a customer site. Canadian customs found my tape (this was 
before CDs  downloads), took me into a back room, and grilled me for 
at least an hour about what I was carrying, why I was there, who I was 
meeting, etc. They rifled through all of my bags and inspected 
*everything* right down to my underwear. They had one of those little 
goose-neck desk lamps pointed at me that were so cliche for 
interrogations on comedy shows. It was all I could do to keep a 
straight face. I think they were upset that I wasn't taking them 
seriously enough...



unsnip--
Like I keep saying: there's a fine line between security and paranoia; 
which side are we on?


--
Rick
--
Remember that if you’re not the lead dog, the view never changes.

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-18 Thread Edward Jaffe

Rick Fochtman wrote:
I went to Edmonton, Alberta in the early 1990s to install some 
software at a customer site. Canadian customs found my tape (this was 
before CDs  downloads), took me into a back room, and grilled me for 
at least an hour about what I was carrying, why I was there, who I 
was meeting, etc. They rifled through all of my bags and inspected 
*everything* right down to my underwear. They had one of those little 
goose-neck desk lamps pointed at me that were so cliche for 
interrogations on comedy shows. It was all I could do to keep a 
straight face. I think they were upset that I wasn't taking them 
seriously enough...


unsnip-- 

Like I keep saying: there's a fine line between security and paranoia; 
which side are we on?


Stuff like that doesn't bother me. The Canadians, like the USA and other 
sovereign countries, have every right to ensure to their satisfaction 
that people coming in are who they say they are and aren't doing or 
transporting anything illegal.


It wasn't like they jailed me. They just asked some questions (seemed 
like the same ones over and over) and searched through my stuff for a 
while. I don't have anything to hide. I took it all in-stride and now I 
have a story I can tell about the er... um... *thoroughness* of the 
Canadian border authorities ...


--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
edja...@phoenixsoftware.com
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-18 Thread Jerry Fuchs
Maybe it was the Osama Ben Laden tee shirt that did it




Ted MacNEIL eamacn...@yahoo.ca 
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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens






now I have a story I can tell about the er... um... *thoroughness* of the 
Canadian border authorities ...

Unfortunately, even before the heightened awareness (post-9/11), Canadian 
Customs Agents had the reputation of being the rudest in the world.
Odd, considering that, in general, Canadians are considered some of the 
politest people in the world (with some exceptions -- (8-{]}).
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-17 Thread Dirk Johann
Find the discussion and the offering a little bit strange from a European /
German view. First of all, most companies and organizations here are worried
to give data away to the U.S. because of worse data protection. Maybe you
have heard of SWIFT data grabbing of U.S. governmental organizations. So do
you really want to protect your data in the States?

Just my personal point of view.

Dirk


On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 03:08, Dave Kopischke 
dgkopisc...@oppenheimerfunds.com wrote:

 On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:49:56 -0400, Harry Wahl wrote:

 I think this is being misconstrued.
 

 And misconstrued in making this a border bash. The original move was to
 eliminate jobs in one country in favor of labor prices in another
 (according to
 the stories I read). Now that the direction is reversed, it's bad ??? Not
 worthy
 of discussion ???

 Regardless of the direction, I think it's an interesting situation. I doubt
 we'll
 ever know the real reasoning behind it. Maybe stimulus money grabbing ???
 Maybe protecting corporate data within the laws of the company's resident
 country ??? Maybe marketing ??? Valid cases can probably be made for each
 of these and more.

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-17 Thread Mary Anne Matyaz
Though I'm as ready as the next guy to assign deviousness to IBM, in this
case it isn't involving stimulus money. It's simply a way for US Govt
accounts to open problems and speak to a US citizen. It's surprising how
much is not in the US, and right now if a
Govt customer opens a PMR, and happens to get a non-US citizen, they have to
close the pmr.
MA

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Dave Kopischke 
dgkopisc...@oppenheimerfunds.com wrote:

 On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:49:56 -0400, Harry Wahl wrote:

 I think this is being misconstrued.
 

 And misconstrued in making this a border bash. The original move was to
 eliminate jobs in one country in favor of labor prices in another
 (according to
 the stories I read). Now that the direction is reversed, it's bad ??? Not
 worthy
 of discussion ???

 Regardless of the direction, I think it's an interesting situation. I doubt
 we'll
 ever know the real reasoning behind it. Maybe stimulus money grabbing ???
 Maybe protecting corporate data within the laws of the company's resident
 country ??? Maybe marketing ??? Valid cases can probably be made for each
 of these and more.


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Re: Where should processing be done was Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-17 Thread Howard Brazee
On 16 Jun 2009 18:41:32 -0700, rfocht...@ync.net (Rick Fochtman)
wrote:

There's a very fine line between security and paranoia; when do we 
decide that it's been crossed?

The enemy's definition is when we do what they want.  (bin Laden had a
hope that we would attack Saudi Arabia, but was delighted nevertheless
that we attacked Iran).

But in data processing, we have different concerns.   The enemy is
often criminals who are wanting to find flaws in our privacy and
security processes.Virus checkers on PCs, policies to not download
sensitive data to PCs, and fire walls are no longer paranoia.

Complicated security procedures making sure that people can't screen
scrape data that they are not authorized for are no longer paranoia.
Technology has made it so that even mainframes aren't immune to the
need for safe security practices.

And in the non-mainframe shops, the percentage of people working on
infrastructure and security is way up over what we have been used to.
A lot fewer people are available for productive programming for the
users.That is necessary because of vulnerabilities that
professional thieves exploit.

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-17 Thread Patrick O'Keefe
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 08:59:41 -0400, Mary Anne Matyaz 
maryanne4...@gmail.com wrote:

...It's simply a way for US Govt
accounts to open problems and speak to a US citizen. It's 
surprising how much is not in the US, and right now if a
Govt customer opens a PMR, and happens to get a non-US 
citizen, they have to close the pmr.
...

 ... because we just can't trust those Canadians, etc. not to take
advantage of a US Government's 0C4.

If those are the US Government's rules then IBM would be foolish
not to set up such accounts, but the concept behind the rule
makes no sense.  It would make more sense (but would be 
impossible to implement) a rule that requires competency rather
than US citizenship.

Pat O'Keefe 

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-17 Thread Ted MacNEIL
Govt customer opens a PMR, and happens to get a non-US 
citizen, they have to close the pmr.

That makes absolutely no sense!
Some of the best support people in IBM work in the Toronto ISC.

I used to work for a company based in California and the service provider was 
in Dallas.

We had a z/OS problem that got escalated to a Toronto support person.
She solved the problem; she was NOT a US citizen.

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-17 Thread Chase, John
 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Patrick O'Keefe
 
 On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 08:59:41 -0400, Mary Anne Matyaz
 maryanne4...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 ...It's simply a way for US Govt
 accounts to open problems and speak to a US citizen. It's
 surprising how much is not in the US, and right now if a
 Govt customer opens a PMR, and happens to get a non-US
 citizen, they have to close the pmr.
 ...
 
  ... because we just can't trust those Canadians, etc. not to take
 advantage of a US Government's 0C4.
 
 If those are the US Government's rules then IBM would be foolish
 not to set up such accounts, but the concept behind the rule
 makes no sense.  It would make more sense (but would be
 impossible to implement) a rule that requires competency rather
 than US citizenship.

You seem to forget that government and logic are mutually exclusive
concepts.

-jc-

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-17 Thread Roach, Dennis (N-GHG)
We don't make the rules.
We don't have to like the rules.
We don't have to understand the why behind the rules. 
We do have to live with the rules. 

Several years ago we contracted for an in-house class with a company
other than IBM. The instructor was from Canada and did not have a work
permit. It took half a day just to get him in the facility. When we did,
we had to make sure everyone was aware of the presence of a foreign
national. I felt like walking ahead, ringing a bell, crying Unclean -
foreign national - unclean

We have code that we cannot discuss with some non-citizens due to export
restrictions. I think this is a great idea and hope that IBM establishes
similar centers to assist other nationalities with the same restriction.


Dennis Roach
GHG Corporation
Lockheed Martin Mission Services
Flight Design and Operations Contract
NASA/JSC
Address:
   2100 Space Park Drive 
   LM-15-4BH
   Houston, Texas 77058
Mail:
   P.O. Box 58487
   Mail Code H4C
   Houston, Texas 77258
Phone:
   Voice:  (281)336-5027
   Cell:   (713)591-1059
   Fax:(281)336-5410
E-Mail:  dennis.ro...@lmco.com

All opinions expressed by me are mine and may not agree with my employer
or any person, company, or thing, living or dead, on or near this or any
other planet, moon, asteroid, or other spatial object, natural or
manufactured, since the beginning of time.


 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
 Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
 Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 2:41 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
 Subject: Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens
 
 Govt customer opens a PMR, and happens to get a non-US
 citizen, they have to close the pmr.
 
 That makes absolutely no sense!
 Some of the best support people in IBM work in the Toronto ISC.
 
 I used to work for a company based in California and the service
 provider was in Dallas.
 
 We had a z/OS problem that got escalated to a Toronto support person.
 She solved the problem; she was NOT a US citizen.
 
 -
 Too busy driving to stop for gas!
 
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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-17 Thread Ed Finnell
 
In a message dated 6/17/2009 3:11:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
dennis.ro...@lmco.com writes:

I think this is a great idea and hope that IBM  establishes
similar centers to assist other nationalities with the same  restriction.



We had a CE working 9370 support out of  White Plains and he got sent on a 
sevcrit to Montreal. Got stopped at customs  and they confiscated his 'tool 
kit' not made in Canada. He went by the  hardware store on the way in and 
bought a new one. Charged the customer retail  rates with the clock running. 
Nobody said a  peep...


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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-17 Thread Ted MacNEIL
We had a CE working 9370 support out of  White Plains and he got sent on a 
sevcrit to Montreal.
Got stopped at customs  and they confiscated his 'tool kit' not made in Canada.

Now, that definitely doesn't make sense.
Who really cares where things you are bringing into a country comes from?
I've only ever been stopped from 'importing' proscribed items.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-17 Thread Edward Jaffe

Ed Finnell wrote:
We had a CE working 9370 support out of  White Plains and he got sent on a 
sevcrit to Montreal. Got stopped at customs  and they confiscated his 'tool 
kit' not made in Canada. He went by the  hardware store on the way in and 
bought a new one. Charged the customer retail  rates with the clock running. 
Nobody said a  peep...
  


I went to Edmonton, Alberta in the early 1990s to install some software 
at a customer site. Canadian customs found my tape (this was before CDs 
 downloads), took me into a back room, and grilled me for at least an 
hour about what I was carrying, why I was there, who I was meeting, etc. 
They rifled through all of my bags and inspected *everything* right down 
to my underwear. They had one of those little goose-neck desk lamps 
pointed at me that were so cliche for interrogations on comedy shows. It 
was all I could do to keep a straight face. I think they were upset that 
I wasn't taking them seriously enough...


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Phoenix Software International, Inc
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IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Ken Porowski
Who ever thought that software support by US Citizens would be a selling
point?

IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens
http://www.ibm.com/vrm/newsletter_10207_5013_119015_email_DYN_1IN/KPoro
wski122130192 

IBM(r) Software Secure Support via USA Citizens (Software Secure
Support) provides a software support option that is performed
exclusively by U.S. citizens located in the United States. Data analysis
and call data will be contained in an isolated network within a facility
that meets U.S. Government security specifications. It provides standard
software support that complements your prerequisite base IBM software
support service.


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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Howard Brazee
On 16 Jun 2009 07:06:29 -0700, ken.porow...@cit.com (Ken Porowski)
wrote:

Who ever thought that software support by US Citizens would be a selling
point?

George Orwell?

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Jim Chappell
What I thought was interesting was it isn't available till OCTOBER.

James (Jim) Chappell
503 745-7841
503 349-5603(cell)

james.chapp...@daimler.com

Daimler Trucks North America LLC


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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Gibney, Dave
 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
 Behalf Of Howard Brazee
 Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:46 AM
 To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
 Subject: Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens
 
 On 16 Jun 2009 07:06:29 -0700, ken.porow...@cit.com (Ken Porowski)
 wrote:
 
 Who ever thought that software support by US Citizens would be a
 selling
 point?
 
 George Orwell?

  But, he's from that island on the other side of the pond?

 
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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Ed Finnell
 
In a message dated 6/16/2009 11:57:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
gib...@wsu.edu writes:

But, he's from that island on the other side of the  pond?



What was the one TJ Watson got in so much  trouble about tattooing serial 
numbers for identification on all citizens?  I've been trying _www.bing.com_ 
(http://www.bing.com)  not many good  hits. 




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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Mohammad Khan
Not only was he from that island but was actually born in INDIA ! 
Plus ca change ...


On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:55:48 -0700, Gibney, Dave gib...@wsu.edu 
wrote:

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
 Behalf Of Howard Brazee
 Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:46 AM
 To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
 Subject: Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

 On 16 Jun 2009 07:06:29 -0700, ken.porow...@cit.com (Ken Porowski)
 wrote:

 Who ever thought that software support by US Citizens would be a
 selling
 point?

 George Orwell?

  But, he's from that island on the other side of the pond?


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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Jerry Fuchs
They have to hire USA citizens first




Jim Chappell james.chapp...@daimler.com 
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06/16/2009 12:55 PM
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IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu


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IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
cc

Subject
Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens






What I thought was interesting was it isn't available till OCTOBER.

James (Jim) Chappell
503 745-7841
503 349-5603(cell)

james.chapp...@daimler.com

Daimler Trucks North America LLC


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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Hal Merritt
And we all know that there aren't enough qualified people, which is why the 
jobs went overseas in the first place, right? ;-) 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Jerry Fuchs
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 2:25 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

They have to hire USA citizens first




Jim Chappell james.chapp...@daimler.com 
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Please respond to
IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu


To
IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
cc

Subject
Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens






What I thought was interesting was it isn't available till OCTOBER.

James (Jim) Chappell
503 745-7841
503 349-5603(cell)

james.chapp...@daimler.com

Daimler Trucks North America LLC


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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Ted MacNEIL
Ya know!
Not everybody on this is a USA Citizen.
Nor, do we live in the USA.
I'm still trying to see where this helps me.

(Flame me if you wish).

But, I'd prefer to see this topic dropped.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

-Original Message-
From: Hal Merritt hmerr...@jackhenry.com

Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:38:16 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens


And we all know that there aren't enough qualified people, which is why the 
jobs went overseas in the first place, right? ;-) 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Jerry Fuchs
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 2:25 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

They have to hire USA citizens first




Jim Chappell james.chapp...@daimler.com 
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06/16/2009 12:55 PM
Please respond to
IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu


To
IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
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Subject
Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens






What I thought was interesting was it isn't available till OCTOBER.

James (Jim) Chappell
503 745-7841
503 349-5603(cell)

james.chapp...@daimler.com

Daimler Trucks North America LLC


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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread McKown, John
 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
 Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 2:42 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
 Subject: Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens
 
 Ya know!
 Not everybody on this is a USA Citizen.
 Nor, do we live in the USA.
 I'm still trying to see where this helps me.
 
 (Flame me if you wish).
 
 But, I'd prefer to see this topic dropped.

Agreed. And I am a US citizen, living in the US.

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Systems Engineer IV
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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Howard Brazee
On 16 Jun 2009 12:39:44 -0700, hmerr...@jackhenry.com (Hal Merritt)
wrote:

And we all know that there aren't enough qualified people, which is why the 
jobs went overseas in the first place, right? ;-) 

By qualified, we mean cheap.   Being able to do the job is way
down on the list of attributes here.

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Tony Harminc
2009/6/16 Ken Porowski ken.porow...@cit.com

 Who ever thought that software support by US Citizens would be a selling
 point?

 IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens
 http://www.ibm.com/vrm/newsletter_10207_5013_119015_email_DYN_1IN/KPoro
 wski122130192http://www.ibm.com/vrm/newsletter_10207_5013_119015_email_DYN_1IN/KPoro%0Awski122130192
 


That SSSUCs...

Tony H.

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread STEVEN DAHARI
AMEN

 

We do all know.

 

Steven


 
 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:22:03 -0600
 From: howard.bra...@cusys.edu
 Subject: Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens
 To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
 
 On 16 Jun 2009 12:39:44 -0700, hmerr...@jackhenry.com (Hal Merritt)
 wrote:
 
 And we all know that there aren't enough qualified people, which is why the 
 jobs went overseas in the first place, right? ;-) 
 
 By qualified, we mean cheap. Being able to do the job is way
 down on the list of attributes here.
 
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Where should processing be done was Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Clark Morris
On 16 Jun 2009 12:48:37 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
 Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 2:42 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
 Subject: Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens
 
 Ya know!
 Not everybody on this is a USA Citizen.
 Nor, do we live in the USA.
 I'm still trying to see where this helps me.
 
 (Flame me if you wish).
 
 But, I'd prefer to see this topic dropped.

Agreed. And I am a US citizen, living in the US.

Probably IBM should look into providing similar services in each
country it does business, Indians in India, Canadians in Canada, etc.

As a US citizen living in Canada, I would strongly urge Canadian
companies not doing business in the US to also not keep any personal
data on US computers because of Patriot Act implications.  In general,
if an organization does not otherwise do business in a jurisdiction
and maintain legal expertise for that jurisdiction, it should not have
any data processing in that jurisdiction.  In federal countries, there
may be interesting surprises between states, provinces, cantons, etc..
In the case of IBM, GM, Volkswagen, HSBC and like companies, they have
the legal exposure anyway in most jurisdictions where they might have
data processing so this does not apply.

What portions of the information processing represent (or at least
should represent) the core competency of an organization.  What really
can safely be farmed out to outside organizations?  How trustworthy
are hired guns like myself whose last three jobs were as a contractor?
It is a balancing act and especially difficult for a small
organization.  To have adequate expertise in many areas of security
crucial to an organization, a small entity may have little choice
other than contracting to a specialist organization yet security can
be crucial to that entity's ability to do business.   An organization
will have to manage the relationships and I suspect that cost is
greatly underestimated.  

 

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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Harry Wahl
I think this is being misconstrued.
 
There are caveats in the Stimulus Package (3.4 trillion dollars of spending) 
requiring that the money not be granted to projects not using resources in the 
United States. This is fair considering that the money is being spent to 
stimulate the American economy.
 
I suspect IBM wants to create a supply channel for products and services that 
is obviously and unambiguously compliant with this so that IBM (and companies 
that sub-contract to it) is clearly eligible for Stimulus Package projects.
 
Harry
 
 
 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:01:54 -0400
 From: ken.porow...@cit.com
 Subject: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens
 To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
 
 Who ever thought that software support by US Citizens would be a selling
 point?
 
 IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens
 http://www.ibm.com/vrm/newsletter_10207_5013_119015_email_DYN_1IN/KPoro
 wski122130192 
 
 IBM(r) Software Secure Support via USA Citizens (Software Secure
 Support) provides a software support option that is performed
 exclusively by U.S. citizens located in the United States. Data analysis
 and call data will be contained in an isolated network within a facility
 that meets U.S. Government security specifications. It provides standard
 software support that complements your prerequisite base IBM software
 support service.
 
 
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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Ted MacNEIL
There are caveats in the Stimulus Package (3.4 trillion dollars of spending) 
requiring that the money not be granted to projects not using resources in the 
United States.
This is fair considering that the money is being spent to stimulate the 
American economy.

Unfortunately, the economy is a Global affair.
If it weren't, the US melt-down wouldn't have affected everybody else.

Protectionism is a sure way to extend a recession.

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: Where should processing be done was Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Ted MacNEIL
As a US citizen living in Canada, I would strongly urge Canadian companies not 
doing business in the US to also not keep any personal data on US computers 
because of Patriot Act implications.

Even if they're doing business in the US, I would strongly recommend keeping 
Canadian data in Canada.


A couple of years ago, George W got the clearing houses in Belgium (I believe) 
to cough up information from any/all members of that international consortium.

While security for the US is important to the US, it does not give them the 
right to trump another country's security.

Another example is that the US now requires all the security information of any 
flight to/from/within Canada to be supplied to them, if the flight path happens 
to cross over any US air-space.

As a Canadian, I find this a little hard to swallow.

This is the last I'll say (publicly) on this issue, since it has drifted 
off-topic.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: Where should processing be done was Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Clark Morris
On 16 Jun 2009 16:31:00 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

As a US citizen living in Canada, I would strongly urge Canadian companies 
not doing business in the US to also not keep any personal data on US 
computers because of Patriot Act implications.

Even if they're doing business in the US, I would strongly recommend keeping 
Canadian data in Canada.


A couple of years ago, George W got the clearing houses in Belgium (I believe) 
to cough up information from any/all members of that international consortium.

While security for the US is important to the US, it does not give them the 
right to trump another country's security.

Another example is that the US now requires all the security information of 
any flight to/from/within Canada to be supplied to them, if the flight path 
happens to cross over any US air-space.

I agree with you on the latter and hope Canada reciprocates the
request for information.  Where this discussion is relevant is in the
provision of service and policies each of us might consider advising
our employers about implications.  When I am contracting on the
applications side, much of the time in order to do my job I need to
have access to confidential information to verify that the requested
change/fix/enhancement works and that data is properly validated.
Control of who has access to what is a very interesting challenge. The
laws surrounding the protections on the data and on outside
contractors use/misuse of it are interesting.  Of course an
organization may not want to hear about concerns.  I know it was
interesting addressing security issues at one shop (a situation that
has changed since I left).  

The main reason that this topic may be off topic is that most of us
are (or in my case were since I am retired with a willingness to take
contracts) not in a position to effectively raise this type of issue.

As a Canadian, I find this a little hard to swallow.

This is the last I'll say (publicly) on this issue, since it has drifted 
off-topic.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!


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Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Dave Kopischke
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:49:56 -0400, Harry Wahl wrote:

I think this is being misconstrued.
 

And misconstrued in making this a border bash. The original move was to 
eliminate jobs in one country in favor of labor prices in another (according to 
the stories I read). Now that the direction is reversed, it's bad ??? Not 
worthy 
of discussion ???

Regardless of the direction, I think it's an interesting situation. I doubt 
we'll 
ever know the real reasoning behind it. Maybe stimulus money grabbing ??? 
Maybe protecting corporate data within the laws of the company's resident 
country ??? Maybe marketing ??? Valid cases can probably be made for each 
of these and more.

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Re: Where should processing be done was Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread Rick Fochtman
snip - Go to 
bottom


Clark Morris wrote:


On 16 Jun 2009 16:31:00 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

 


As a US citizen living in Canada, I would strongly urge Canadian companies not 
doing business in the US to also not keep any personal data on US computers 
because of Patriot Act implications.
 


Even if they're doing business in the US, I would strongly recommend keeping 
Canadian data in Canada.


A couple of years ago, George W got the clearing houses in Belgium (I believe) 
to cough up information from any/all members of that international consortium.

While security for the US is important to the US, it does not give them the 
right to trump another country's security.

Another example is that the US now requires all the security information of any 
flight to/from/within Canada to be supplied to them, if the flight path happens 
to cross over any US air-space.
   



I agree with you on the latter and hope Canada reciprocates the
request for information.  Where this discussion is relevant is in the
provision of service and policies each of us might consider advising
our employers about implications.  When I am contracting on the
applications side, much of the time in order to do my job I need to
have access to confidential information to verify that the requested
change/fix/enhancement works and that data is properly validated.
Control of who has access to what is a very interesting challenge. The
laws surrounding the protections on the data and on outside
contractors use/misuse of it are interesting.  Of course an
organization may not want to hear about concerns.  I know it was
interesting addressing security issues at one shop (a situation that
has changed since I left).  


The main reason that this topic may be off topic is that most of us
are (or in my case were since I am retired with a willingness to take
contracts) not in a position to effectively raise this type of issue.
 


As a Canadian, I find this a little hard to swallow.

This is the last I'll say (publicly) on this issue, since it has drifted 
off-topic.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!
   


-unsnip-
There's a very fine line between security and paranoia; when do we 
decide that it's been crossed?


Seriously. What constitutes a Security Measure, as opposed to a 
disturbing invasion of privacy? When does my aftershave, properly 
packaged in the original container, become a potential liquid 
explosive? Or the bottle of water that I'm drinking? When does my 
shotgun cease to be a valid bird-hunting gun and become a terrorist 
weapon?


My point is this: we need to think, realistically, about what 
constitutes a threat and how do we defend against that threat. I'm sure 
that we can all develope serious threats in our own minds, and some may 
be very real. But let's evaluate threat possibilities with a couple of 
pounds of realistic thinking. Between reality and dollar signs, most 
management teams are capable of learning. It's up to us, as realists and 
technicians, to help management learn the realities. Slowly but surely, 
we have to wean them away from the Airline Magazines that so many seem 
to be enamored of, and help them see a bit of the real world.


Reality can be a real BITCH; but it's still reality!

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Re: Where should processing be done was Re: IBM Software Secure Support via USA Citizens

2009-06-16 Thread John Baxter
There are numerous, not-so-obvious ways that the nebulous net can
unexpectedly cross borders and become subject to the whims of foreign
agencies.

One example was Lakehead University in Thunder Bay, Ontario, who in a
cost-savings measures, decided to take advantage of GoogleApps. This
caused a strike by academic professionals when they realized their
emails, documents, etc. would be entirely open to Homeland Security.
(AFAIK, CSIS is not so empowered; not so sure about the CSE
(Communications Security Establishment Canada). I believe this continues
to be the case until an all-in-Canada solution is developed, but with
faculty, staff and students working within the limits of a list of
cautions.

Then there's Facebook and analogues...

John Baxter
Edmonton

(My own opinions, not necessarily those of my employer.)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of Rick Fochtman
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 7:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Where should processing be done was Re: IBM Software Secure
Support via USA Citizens

snip - Go to 
bottom

Clark Morris wrote:

On 16 Jun 2009 16:31:00 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

  

As a US citizen living in Canada, I would strongly urge Canadian
companies not doing business in the US to also not keep any personal
data on US computers because of Patriot Act implications.
  

Even if they're doing business in the US, I would strongly recommend
keeping Canadian data in Canada.


A couple of years ago, George W got the clearing houses in Belgium (I
believe) to cough up information from any/all members of that
international consortium.

While security for the US is important to the US, it does not give
them the right to trump another country's security.

Another example is that the US now requires all the security
information of any flight to/from/within Canada to be supplied to them,
if the flight path happens to cross over any US air-space.



I agree with you on the latter and hope Canada reciprocates the
request for information.  Where this discussion is relevant is in the
provision of service and policies each of us might consider advising
our employers about implications.  When I am contracting on the
applications side, much of the time in order to do my job I need to
have access to confidential information to verify that the requested
change/fix/enhancement works and that data is properly validated.
Control of who has access to what is a very interesting challenge. The
laws surrounding the protections on the data and on outside
contractors use/misuse of it are interesting.  Of course an
organization may not want to hear about concerns.  I know it was
interesting addressing security issues at one shop (a situation that
has changed since I left).  

The main reason that this topic may be off topic is that most of us
are (or in my case were since I am retired with a willingness to take
contracts) not in a position to effectively raise this type of issue.
  

As a Canadian, I find this a little hard to swallow.

This is the last I'll say (publicly) on this issue, since it has
drifted off-topic.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!


-unsnip---
--
There's a very fine line between security and paranoia; when do we 
decide that it's been crossed?

Seriously. What constitutes a Security Measure, as opposed to a 
disturbing invasion of privacy? When does my aftershave, properly 
packaged in the original container, become a potential liquid 
explosive? Or the bottle of water that I'm drinking? When does my 
shotgun cease to be a valid bird-hunting gun and become a terrorist 
weapon?

My point is this: we need to think, realistically, about what 
constitutes a threat and how do we defend against that threat. I'm sure 
that we can all develope serious threats in our own minds, and some may 
be very real. But let's evaluate threat possibilities with a couple of 
pounds of realistic thinking. Between reality and dollar signs, most 
management teams are capable of learning. It's up to us, as realists and

technicians, to help management learn the realities. Slowly but surely, 
we have to wean them away from the Airline Magazines that so many seem

to be enamored of, and help them see a bit of the real world.

Reality can be a real BITCH; but it's still reality!

--
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Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html


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