Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
Ted, The first six words of the 2nd paragraph of my 1st response to James on this thread: " I agree with the IBM presenter." The first six quoted words of your response to me: ">I agree with the IBM presenter." Is there another way to say it? Ron >Fine. You've now stated that. >Your original response didn't state that. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
> I think that's why God invented the archives. For some reason, I'm not seeing Ron's posts in the archives, not in Google Groups version of bit.listserv.ibm-main anyway. > Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 14:51:02 -0500 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > > > > In a message dated 11/5/2008 11:36:58 A.M. Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >Since, I didn't keep any of this thread, I am going by memory. > > I think that's why God invented the archives. Check the archives for what > each of you two said. Copy and paste exact quotes of one another. Then > apologize to each other, or else continue to carry on your feud, PRIVATELY. > > PLEASE. > > Bill Fairchild _ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119462413/direct/01/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
>I think that's why God invented the archives. Check the archives for what >each of you two said. Copy and paste exact quotes of one another. Then >apologize to each other, or else continue to carry on your feud, PRIVATELY. Maybe I didn't read the answer correctly, but there's nothing definitive in the response regarding HYPER PAV. >>I agree with the IBM presenter. Cache will not make a difference unless >>something changes the hit ratio. You really need one of the three varieties >>of PAV if you are going to fold volumes at this ratio in an unplanned manner. I read this as an equivical answer, stating any was good enough. I was not trying to start a feud. I was not trying to start an argument. If I did, I'm truly sorry. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
In a message dated 11/5/2008 11:36:58 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >Since, I didn't keep any of this thread, I am going by memory. I think that's why God invented the archives. Check the archives for what each of you two said. Copy and paste exact quotes of one another. Then apologize to each other, or else continue to carry on your feud, PRIVATELY. PLEASE. Bill Fairchild Franklin, TN **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
>Yes it did, Ted. And you quoted it in your first reply to Ron. This is the last I'm going to say on this. But, Tom show me where that is, and I'll appologise. The response I read stated that one of three types of PAV's was needed. Nowhere, do I recall any statement on hyper PAVs in the response. Since, I didn't keep any of this thread, I am going by memory. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
>Ted, sometimes I think your posts are a little too picky. Unfortuneatly, Ron >always responds to your posts as in this thread. To the list: I'm sorry. To Ron: I neither accepted, nor rejected, your opinion regarding HYPER PAV's, since you didn't express one in your original response. You only expressed an opinion regarding a PAV requirement, which was not the question. If that's picky. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
On Wed, 5 Nov 2008 16:33:38 +, Ted MacNEIL wrote: > >>Your original response was a timeline, not an answer. > >My resonse was intended to state that hyper PAVs were not needed. Since it wasn't a problem when -27's first came out, why is it a problem now? That's not a logical response. HyperPAV was in fact invented to solve a problem, as Ron noted in the previous post. > >>I agree with the IBM presenter - that is the fact of the matter. > >Fine. You've now stated that. >Your original response didn't state that. Yes it did, Ted. And you quoted it in your first reply to Ron. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
This exchange reminds me of some of the exchanges we used to have in the past between people I won't mention (Partly because I forgot their names). Some of the exchanges got heated. I know when I get comments I don't like, instead of firing off a nasty reply (Ted - this wasn't nasty - I'm not picking on you - atl least not yet), I'll just leave the post sit in my inbox for several hours. Then I'll go back and reply -hopefully with tact, or just decide to ignore the post. Ted, sometimes I think your posts are a little too picky. Unfortuneatly, Ron always responds to your posts as in this thread. I've probably said too much already. Eric Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Don't bust my gonads Ted! > > I'm not busting anything. > You didn't answer the question. > > >Your original response was a timeline, not an answer. > > My resonse was intended to state that hyper PAVs were not needed. Since it > wasn't a problem when -27's first came out, why is it a problem now? > > >Why do you find it so hard to accept another opinion on a topic? > > I accepted your opinion. You just didn't answer the question. You stated some > sort of PAV was required. This, I agreed with. > > >I agree with the IBM presenter - that is the fact of the matter. > > Fine. You've now stated that. > Your original response didn't state that. > I never disputed PAV's were required. > Just hyper PAVs. > > >I think HyperPAV is the best, most dynamic of the three methods that should > >be used when placing CRITICAL data on 3390-27. I don't find anything in your > >response changes that. > > Maybe. I wasn't trying to change your mind. > But, your original post did not state that you agreed with the IBM'r. > All it said was that any sort of PAV was required. > It DID NOT say that you agreed that hyper PAV's were required. > > That's all I was trying to say. > If you took offence, sorry. > > PS: I don't necessarily agree with the blanket statement that hyper PAV's are > required in this situation. > That was all I was trying to say, since they weren't required before. > They have only seemed to be a requirement since they came out. > -- Eric Bielefeld Systems Programmer Washington University St Louis, Missouri 314-935-3418 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
>Don't bust my gonads Ted! I'm not busting anything. You didn't answer the question. >Your original response was a timeline, not an answer. My resonse was intended to state that hyper PAVs were not needed. Since it wasn't a problem when -27's first came out, why is it a problem now? >Why do you find it so hard to accept another opinion on a topic? I accepted your opinion. You just didn't answer the question. You stated some sort of PAV was required. This, I agreed with. >I agree with the IBM presenter - that is the fact of the matter. Fine. You've now stated that. Your original response didn't state that. I never disputed PAV's were required. Just hyper PAVs. >I think HyperPAV is the best, most dynamic of the three methods that should be >used when placing CRITICAL data on 3390-27. I don't find anything in your >response changes that. Maybe. I wasn't trying to change your mind. But, your original post did not state that you agreed with the IBM'r. All it said was that any sort of PAV was required. It DID NOT say that you agreed that hyper PAV's were required. That's all I was trying to say. If you took offence, sorry. PS: I don't necessarily agree with the blanket statement that hyper PAV's are required in this situation. That was all I was trying to say, since they weren't required before. They have only seemed to be a requirement since they came out. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
Ted, Don't bust my gonads Ted! Your original response was a timeline, not an answer. Why do you find it so hard to accept another opinion on a topic? I agree with the IBM presenter - that is the fact of the matter. I think HyperPAV is the best, most dynamic of the three methods that should be used when placing CRITICAL data on 3390-27. I don't find anything in your response changes that. The customer does not know if he NEEDS HyperPAV or not. If they are not in a position to answer that for themselves then there is the reason to NEED HyperPAV. HyperPAV mitigates the issue of ALIAS over/under allocation with Static and Dynamic, where under allocation is the greatest risk to critical workloads. I stressed that if you are folding volumes at a 9:1 ratio in an unplanned manner than you should use one of the three PAV methods, and HyperPAV will always be my first recommendation. Ron > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 7:04 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Performance Question - Dynamic PAV > > >Thx Ted. How does that information change my answer? > > You said some sort ogf PAV. > The OP was asking about *HYPER* PAV. > You did not answer his question. > - > Too busy driving to stop for gas! > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
>Thx Ted. How does that information change my answer? You said some sort ogf PAV. The OP was asking about *HYPER* PAV. You did not answer his question. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
Thx Ted. How does that information change my answer? > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 2:44 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Performance Question - Dynamic PAV > > >I agree with the IBM presenter. Cache will not make a difference > unless something changes the hit ratio. You really need one of the > three varieties of PAV if you are going to fold volumes at this ratio > in an unplanned > manner. > > Ron, the point is not whether you need PAV or not. > The IBM'r stated that you needed HYPERPAV. > There is a difference (cost for one thing). > > Extract from original post: > > >> we have a customer panicking because an IBM presenter 'suggested' > that you > >> should not use Mod-27 devices for critical data UNLESS you have > hyper PAV > -- > > >> installed as you are likely to see problems with IOSQ times. Not > sure about > >> the validity of the comments so I thought I would seek out opinions > on the list. > - > Too busy driving to stop for gas! > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
>I agree with the IBM presenter. Cache will not make a difference unless >something changes the hit ratio. You really need one of the three varieties of >PAV if you are going to fold volumes at this ratio in an unplanned manner. Ron, the point is not whether you need PAV or not. The IBM'r stated that you needed HYPERPAV. There is a difference (cost for one thing). Extract from original post: >> we have a customer panicking because an IBM presenter 'suggested' that you >> should not use Mod-27 devices for critical data UNLESS you have hyper PAV -- >> installed as you are likely to see problems with IOSQ times. Not sure about >> the validity of the comments so I thought I would seek out opinions on the >> list. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
James, As a generalization, queuing for a volume from the same LPAR will increase as you increase the time that the volume is busy. If you have 9x3390-3 that at some point in time are 5% busy then you will probably see very little IOSQ time. Fold them into 1x3390-27 and it will be 45% busy and you will likely see an increase in IOSQ time. I agree with the IBM presenter. Cache will not make a difference unless something changes the hit ratio. You really need one of the three varieties of PAV if you are going to fold volumes at this ratio in an unplanned manner. Ron > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of james smith > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:43 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: [IBM-MAIN] Performance Question - Dynamic PAV > > we have a customer panicking because an IBM presenter 'suggested' that > you > should not use Mod-27 devices for critical data UNLESS you have hyper > PAV > installed as you are likely to see problems with IOSQ times. Not sure > about > the validity of the comments so I thought I would seek out opinions on > the > list. He may just have been plugging the DS8000 box which comes with > hyper > PAV... after all it was a 'dog and pony' show. > > Jim S. > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
The expected benefit of all performance options is invariably "it depends". All you need to know is the characteristics of the I/O workload the mod-27's will be supporting and you'll know how to respond to the IBM peddler's attempt to peddle FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt). If the mod-27 is going to contain a single very large dataset with relatively few simultaneously open DCBs/ACBs (favorite example: SMPPTS) or will contain a whole bunch of datasets whose I/O service time won't matter to production SLAs (example: the DLIB collection), then IOSQ time will be minimal (in the first case) and won't matter (in the second case). If the mod-27 is going to contain DB2 work tablespaces that are heavily used by online activities, IOSQ time might be problematic - or might not. Tom Puddicombe Mainframe Performance & Capacity Planning CSC 71 Deerfield Rd, Meriden, CT 06450 ITIS | (860) 428-3252 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.csc.com This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. james smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 11/04/2008 06:43 AM Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List To IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU cc Subject Performance Question - Dynamic PAV we have a customer panicking because an IBM presenter 'suggested' that you should not use Mod-27 devices for critical data UNLESS you have hyper PAV installed as you are likely to see problems with IOSQ times. Not sure about the validity of the comments so I thought I would seek out opinions on the list. He may just have been plugging the DS8000 box which comes with hyper PAV... after all it was a 'dog and pony' show. Jim S. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
>we have a customer panicking because an IBM presenter 'suggested' that you >should not use Mod-27 devices for critical data UNLESS you have hyper PAV >installed as you are likely to see problems with IOSQ times. So called Mod-27's came out before HYPERPAV did. Using them with cache and 'normal' PAV's wasn't a performance problem, then. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Performance Question - Dynamic PAV
we have a customer panicking because an IBM presenter 'suggested' that you should not use Mod-27 devices for critical data UNLESS you have hyper PAV installed as you are likely to see problems with IOSQ times. Not sure about the validity of the comments so I thought I would seek out opinions on the list. He may just have been plugging the DS8000 box which comes with hyper PAV... after all it was a 'dog and pony' show. Jim S. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
