Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
snip--- It all depends what your structure is. If it was me and I was say the head of IT where you are, I would appoint the team-lead sysprog( someone with all the credentials) first, and let him select his team... I have seen it many times, and this would be the best recipe. It would not pay him to get someone below him that he would not be able to rely on, on cannot work with. -unsnip- We did it that way at Clearing for many years; both the manager and I would interview prospects. Only when management decided that my participation was unnecessary did the atmosphere change. New people with different work styles can sometimes lead to friction and that's never a good thing. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
That is just my point, Once you are happy that the Lead has the 'work styles' ethics that you want, that is it! He will make sure that that is carried forward/maintained. I think sometimes 'management' perceives the standards that will be set by the 'lead' to be to restrictive, and that they struggle to fill the positions, but forget about the consequences if they disregard his 'lead'. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman Sent: 13 Februarie 2008 02:54 nm To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing snip--- It all depends what your structure is. If it was me and I was say the head of IT where you are, I would appoint the team-lead sysprog( someone with all the credentials) first, and let him select his team... I have seen it many times, and this would be the best recipe. It would not pay him to get someone below him that he would not be able to rely on, on cannot work with. -unsnip- We did it that way at Clearing for many years; both the manager and I would interview prospects. Only when management decided that my participation was unnecessary did the atmosphere change. New people with different work styles can sometimes lead to friction and that's never a good thing. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
It all depends what your structure is. If it was me and I was say the head of IT where you are, I would appoint the team-lead sysprog( someone with all the credentials) first, and let him select his team... I have seen it many times, and this would be the best recipe. It would not pay him to get someone below him that he would not be able to rely on, on cannot work with. Herbie -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Yukus, Mary J CIV USMEPCOM Sent: 12 Februarie 2008 09:30 nm To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing What would all of you consider a senior level systems programmer (how many years of experience) ? -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Alequin Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:40 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing Here is my opinion on Z/OS system programer staffing. When I decided to start looking for a new JOB in the mainframe world, I found that many companies were looking for System Programmer Gods that knew about everything. This surprised me because I had enough work only working with implementation of OPC Scheduler, now known as TWS and other products installations. After that I started getting also the responsibility of OS390 - Z/OS installations, SMS, DFHSM implementation and Disaster Recovery Planing and execution. Right know I am one of the youngest System Programmer in my actual job. I decided to stay in the mainframe world even thou people said that mainframe was dying, but it has been difficult for me to find an attractive job in the US. Everything is contracts and that is not paying as much as it used to. The people that have been in this field a long time know what I am talking about. Besides when people see in my resume that I am currently living and working in Puerto Rico don't pay that much attention. A lot of people that gratuated with me are just foucused and oriented to open systems. Now I am just wondering if I should have decided to work in Open Systems. Anyway I could keep on writing but I'll start bouring people. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
Thanks so much for all your input, it is very much appreciated! Mary :-) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Van Dalsen, Herbie Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:01 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing That is just my point, Once you are happy that the Lead has the 'work styles' ethics that you want, that is it! He will make sure that that is carried forward/maintained. I think sometimes 'management' perceives the standards that will be set by the 'lead' to be to restrictive, and that they struggle to fill the positions, but forget about the consequences if they disregard his 'lead'. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman Sent: 13 Februarie 2008 02:54 nm To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing snip--- It all depends what your structure is. If it was me and I was say the head of IT where you are, I would appoint the team-lead sysprog( someone with all the credentials) first, and let him select his team... I have seen it many times, and this would be the best recipe. It would not pay him to get someone below him that he would not be able to rely on, on cannot work with. -unsnip- We did it that way at Clearing for many years; both the manager and I would interview prospects. Only when management decided that my participation was unnecessary did the atmosphere change. New people with different work styles can sometimes lead to friction and that's never a good thing. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
On Feb 13, 2008, at 2:33 PM, Yukus, Mary J CIV USMEPCOM wrote: Thanks so much for all your input, it is very much appreciated! Mary :-) Yukas: Don't forget that some(quite a few) installations promote past the level of competence. It is I believed called the Peter Principal. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
Eric Bielefeld wrote: I think many of the estimates people have givin on this thread seem really high for the number of sysprogs to staff a z/OS site. At PH, for the last 10 years or so, we had 3 sysprogs. We only had a 115 MIP machine, so were very small. We're a small shop too. We run a z890-220 with 4 z/OS LPARs (monoplex). Each LPAR has from 4 to 8 CICS instances and between 6 and 13 ADABAS databases. We do everything for the mainframe from installing and customizing the operating system to installing and customizing vendor software to installing, customizing, and managing the databases to RACF administration to Storage Management to VTAM and TCP/IP maintenance to ... you get the picture. We have TWO systems programmers doing all of this. I think we're overworked. But the plan was that we'd only have to carry this workload for 5 years and then the mainframe would be gone and we'd go back to normal workloads when we get integrated into our 18-man Sun/Solaris SysAdmin pool. We've been doing this for 18 years now ... and management is projecting that we'll only need to do this for another 3 years ... --Stephen -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
I worked as a systems programmer for 2 years when I was hired by Marine Bank in the middle of 3 levels. I became a Senior Systems Programmer after 2 years there, or a total of 4 years. I don't know what's normal, or whats normal now. Eric Yukus wrote: What would all of you consider a senior level systems programmer (how many years of experience) ? -- Eric Bielefeld Systems Programmer Aviva USA Des Moines, Iowa 515-645-5153 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:15:55 -0500, Burrell, C. Todd (CDC/OCOO/ITSO) (CTR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... 1) Install ANY OEM product with no help. 2) Install z/OS or another Serverpac with no help. 3) Debug a dump with no help. 4) Do at least some minimal assembler coding 5) Understand and be able to do most SMP/E work (like investigating sysmods and coding usermods). ... I know that this varies greatly from shop to shop, but I think the 1st half of 2 is a whole lot bigger task than any of the tasks. Since there are rarely brand new installations now, installing z/OS probably means installing a new release of z/OS. That means finding all stuff (not just just mods and USERMODs) that might possibly be release-dependant. That alone can be a big subtask. Having a good set of IVRs can reduce the work a lot, but I would still expect a good system programmer to not attempt to do it with no help unless there is no other help available. Pat O'Keefe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
And to some degree, be able to walk on water. G, D R On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:15:55 -0500, Burrell, C. Todd (CDC/OCOO/ITSO) (CTR) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would say somewhere between 5 and 10 years experience depending on what and where the experience occurred. I worked in a sweatshop for my first 8 years, and probably got 20 good years of experience there. But some people spend their first 5-10 years only installing a couple of OEM products, so I would not call them senior. It all depends on the level of experience, but I would say that a senior systems programmer should be able to do the following (and have 5-10 years work experience): 1) Install ANY OEM product with no help. 2) Install z/OS or another Serverpac with no help. 3) Debug a dump with no help. 4) Do at least some minimal assembler coding 5) Understand and be able to do most SMP/E work (like investigating sysmods and coding usermods). This is just my opinion. Thanks C. Todd Burrell Lead z/OS Systems Programmer ITSO (404) 723-2017 (Cell) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Yukus, Mary J CIV USMEPCOM Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:30 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing What would all of you consider a senior level systems programmer (how many years of experience) ? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
On Feb 12, 2008, at 9:40 AM, Frank Alequin wrote: Here is my opinion on Z/OS system programer staffing. When I decided to start looking for a new JOB in the mainframe world, I found that many companies were looking for System Programmer Gods that knew about everything. This surprised me because I had enough work only working with implementation of OPC Scheduler, now known as TWS and other products installations. After that I started getting also the responsibility of OS390 - Z/OS installations, SMS, DFHSM implementation and Disaster Recovery Planing and execution. Right know I am one of the youngest System Programmer in my actual job. I decided to stay in the mainframe world even thou people said that mainframe was dying, but it has been difficult for me to find an attractive job in the US. Everything is contracts and that is not paying as much as it used to. The people that have been in this field a long time know what I am talking about. Besides when people see in my resume that I am currently living and working in Puerto Rico don't pay that much attention. A lot of people that gratuated with me are just foucused and oriented to open systems. Now I am just wondering if I should have decided to work in Open Systems. Anyway I could keep on writing but I'll start bouring people. Frank, Welcome to the world of dinosaurs:( There is no right answer for your question(s). As always it depends and when your resume is seen (read optical scanned) by the HR department. The bigger the companies the more impersonal the hiring is get used to it. The bigger the company the less likely you will be a general systems programmer. We have seen a list on here as to what companies seem to want and other that indicate they don't know what they want. The truth is its somewhere in between. Personally I would tend to stay away from becoming an expert in OE. This is just my attitude I am sure other will disagree. Don't get me wrong its a must to have OE experience so you can wade around in the muck. I have only seen those types of positions in a business that runs one of big (sorry I am having a senior moment here) packages that was retrofitted to the mainframe. my ears indicate that the vendors bully the users around and you can't argue with them its their way or its wrong. If you like working in that type of environment go for it. I have even heard the vendors (sales types) telling the company who they want to work on their system so be prepared for intense political pressure. Your boss won't want to be considered not to be a team player so he will bend to their wishes. On the other hand if you can survive such political intrigue go for it but keep you hands wet in the MVS side as sooner or later you will need it at the best you might be able to keep your job on the other end you will be branded by the vendor as a troublemaker. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
What would all of you consider a senior level systems programmer (how many years of experience) ? -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Alequin Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:40 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing Here is my opinion on Z/OS system programer staffing. When I decided to start looking for a new JOB in the mainframe world, I found that many companies were looking for System Programmer Gods that knew about everything. This surprised me because I had enough work only working with implementation of OPC Scheduler, now known as TWS and other products installations. After that I started getting also the responsibility of OS390 - Z/OS installations, SMS, DFHSM implementation and Disaster Recovery Planing and execution. Right know I am one of the youngest System Programmer in my actual job. I decided to stay in the mainframe world even thou people said that mainframe was dying, but it has been difficult for me to find an attractive job in the US. Everything is contracts and that is not paying as much as it used to. The people that have been in this field a long time know what I am talking about. Besides when people see in my resume that I am currently living and working in Puerto Rico don't pay that much attention. A lot of people that gratuated with me are just foucused and oriented to open systems. Now I am just wondering if I should have decided to work in Open Systems. Anyway I could keep on writing but I'll start bouring people. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:34:15 -1000, Stephen Y Odo wrote: ...snipped... I think we're overworked. But the plan was that we'd only have to carry this workload for 5 years and then the mainframe would be gone and we'd go back to normal workloads when we get integrated into our 18-man Sun/Solaris SysAdmin pool. We've been doing this for 18 years now ... and management is projecting that we'll only need to do this for another 3 years ... Lets see: 5 is to 18 as 3 is to ... 10.8? (Not quite 'dog years' but you are more than halfway there.) (Or do you retire before then?) -- Tom Schmidt -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
The expert in the eyes of HR sounds appropriate. Perhaps that is why he got the interview in the first place. As for waiting until a subsequent interview. Not there. He was interviewed by all parties involved in one session, including the IMS Systems Programmer who was soon to be, and probably now is, long gone. Maybe he is back there as a contractor on a PT basis to keep them covered; my friend does not know. On Tue Feb 12 10:44 , Hal Merritt [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: IMHO, your candidate's -big- mistake was misjudging his/her audience. Installing a product puts one on a 'expert' level in HR-speak. The second mistake, again IMHO, was that the candidate used too many words too early. The desire to be honest and do a full discloser perhaps should wait for the third or fourth interview. Presumably that would be with someone that would know what the candidate is talking about. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
I would say somewhere between 5 and 10 years experience depending on what and where the experience occurred. I worked in a sweatshop for my first 8 years, and probably got 20 good years of experience there. But some people spend their first 5-10 years only installing a couple of OEM products, so I would not call them senior. It all depends on the level of experience, but I would say that a senior systems programmer should be able to do the following (and have 5-10 years work experience): 1) Install ANY OEM product with no help. 2) Install z/OS or another Serverpac with no help. 3) Debug a dump with no help. 4) Do at least some minimal assembler coding 5) Understand and be able to do most SMP/E work (like investigating sysmods and coding usermods). This is just my opinion. Thanks C. Todd Burrell Lead z/OS Systems Programmer ITSO (404) 723-2017 (Cell) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Yukus, Mary J CIV USMEPCOM Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:30 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing What would all of you consider a senior level systems programmer (how many years of experience) ? -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Alequin Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:40 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing Here is my opinion on Z/OS system programer staffing. When I decided to start looking for a new JOB in the mainframe world, I found that many companies were looking for System Programmer Gods that knew about everything. This surprised me because I had enough work only working with implementation of OPC Scheduler, now known as TWS and other products installations. After that I started getting also the responsibility of OS390 - Z/OS installations, SMS, DFHSM implementation and Disaster Recovery Planing and execution. Right know I am one of the youngest System Programmer in my actual job. I decided to stay in the mainframe world even thou people said that mainframe was dying, but it has been difficult for me to find an attractive job in the US. Everything is contracts and that is not paying as much as it used to. The people that have been in this field a long time know what I am talking about. Besides when people see in my resume that I am currently living and working in Puerto Rico don't pay that much attention. A lot of people that gratuated with me are just foucused and oriented to open systems. Now I am just wondering if I should have decided to work in Open Systems. Anyway I could keep on writing but I'll start bouring people. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
I never thought about his retirement like that, but it does describe him. He, like me, loves what he does and would hate to do anything else. As for being secure, perhaps. I do know he wants to move on so he can settle down, whatever that means. If they were to call back, I do know he would take their call. Beyond that... On Tue Feb 12 10:39 , 'Chase, John' [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Gary Green Companies may be looking for System Programmer Gods..., but they only seem willing to pay for newbies. An associate has been looking to move on for some time now. If, IF, he gets to speak with someone at the hiring company (3 out of 14) they either reject him out of hand because, he believes, they can determine his age or probable starting salary, or they think they can get someone younger at a more reasonable salary. He is NOT asking for the world, just a good place he can spend the next 20 years or so. (he says he has no intention of retiring). As in, I'll think about retiring when I'm dead.? He makes these assumptions because each resume submitted is targeted to the hiring requirements so that alone should garner at least an exploratory telephone call from the HR department. One interview back in September called for a very senior systems programmer with some IMS knowledge, which he does not have, but they did agree to interview him. During the interview, he reiterated his lack of deep IMS knowledge (only installed it once a few years ago), but said he could be walking within a couple of weeks and running within a month. They never even returned his follow-up telephone calls. The company is STILL looking... At least that is what he told me over the weekend. Sounds like they don't know what they want. Yet that same company would probably hire a freshly-minted MBA as a consultant at $300/hr without batting an eyelash. Hopefully your colleague is sufficiently secure that, should they ever call back saying come on down, he could (and would) reply, You had your chance. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
Franky, Don't worry about it be happy. Actually that odd thoughts regarding to location and nationality .. are changing. Every day more and more recruiters are looking for ZOS people with expertise and willing to relocation (not a country passport or privileged community members) ... due to mainframe is not dying the mainframe people is who is retiring or it's hard to say is dying. Many countries are experiencing with teaching again the mainframe on Universities or outsourcing providers that prepares your own resources. Obviusly in order to preparing people for the entire world, and those people truly are populating the world, but IMO the experience is better yet. Keep on fighting. Your only concern must be the contract , travel and rellocation conditions that you can negotiate. Glood look P.D. Regards to Ever-guys -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
IMHO, your candidate's -big- mistake was misjudging his/her audience. Installing a product puts one on a 'expert' level in HR-speak. The second mistake, again IMHO, was that the candidate used too many words too early. The desire to be honest and do a full discloser perhaps should wait for the third or fourth interview. Presumably that would be with someone that would know what the candidate is talking about. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Green Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:04 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing Companies may be looking for System Programmer Gods..., but they only seem willing to pay for newbies. An associate has been looking to move on for some time now. If, IF, he gets to speak with someone at the hiring company (3 out of 14) they either reject him out of hand because, he believes, they can determine his age or probable starting salary, or they think they can get someone younger at a more reasonable salary. He is NOT asking for the world, just a good place he can spend the next 20 years or so. (he says he has no intention of retiring). He makes these assumptions because each resume submitted is targeted to the hiring requirements so that alone should garner at least an exploratory telephone call from the HR department. One interview back in September called for a very senior systems programmer with some IMS knowledge, which he does not have, but they did agree to interview him. During the interview, he reiterated his lack of deep IMS knowledge (only installed it once a few years ago), but said he could be walking within a couple of weeks and running within a month. They never even returned his follow-up telephone calls. The company is STILL looking... At least that is what he told me over the weekend. NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any files transmitted with it are intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. The message, together with any attachment, may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, printing, saving, copying, disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete all copies. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
IMHO it all depends how you define Sysprog. I have been in very nice sysprog jobs where you can actually get on with the sysprogging, and than I have been others where you spend more time babysitting the COBOL programmers who are 'business-orientated-specialists' they know the intrigued details of the layouts of the files, fields, etc, rate calculations, etc... but cannot code JCL, cannot understand that a development storage pool will fill-up if... Then there is the missing scheduling specialist / ops analyst... All these things take up additional sysprog time if they are not in place. So depending on what is exactly expected. If all the other structures are in place, like OPS Analysts, Change management... the number of actual sysprogs can drop. The other factor that has an influence is whether your site wants to be leading / bleeding edge or just a few months behind the rest of the pack. Regards Herbie -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Bielefeld Sent: 12 Februarie 2008 04:07 nm To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing I think many of the estimates people have givin on this thread seem really high for the number of sysprogs to staff a z/OS site. At PH, for the last 10 years or so, we had 3 sysprogs. We only had a 115 MIP machine, so were very small. I know of a couple of companies in Milwaukee, where the total sysprogs are in the 4 to 8 range - i think closer to 4 than 8. They both are very large. I know one has at least 15 to 20 Lpars on several machines. The other is just one of the larger z boxes, and I don't know how many Lpars there are. My last job had 4 sysprogs with about 2,000 MIPS. They only had 4 Lpars on 2 CPUs. -- Eric Bielefeld Systems Programmer Aviva USA Des Moines, Iowa 515-645-5153 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
Companies may be looking for System Programmer Gods..., but they only seem willing to pay for newbies. An associate has been looking to move on for some time now. If, IF, he gets to speak with someone at the hiring company (3 out of 14) they either reject him out of hand because, he believes, they can determine his age or probable starting salary, or they think they can get someone younger at a more reasonable salary. He is NOT asking for the world, just a good place he can spend the next 20 years or so. (he says he has no intention of retiring). He makes these assumptions because each resume submitted is targeted to the hiring requirements so that alone should garner at least an exploratory telephone call from the HR department. One interview back in September called for a very senior systems programmer with some IMS knowledge, which he does not have, but they did agree to interview him. During the interview, he reiterated his lack of deep IMS knowledge (only installed it once a few years ago), but said he could be walking within a couple of weeks and running within a month. They never even returned his follow-up telephone calls. The company is STILL looking... At least that is what he told me over the weekend. On Tue Feb 12 9:40 , Frank Alequin [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: Here is my opinion on Z/OS system programer staffing. When I decided to start looking for a new JOB in the mainframe world, I found that many companies were looking for System Programmer Gods that knew about everything. This surprised me because I had enough work only working with implementation of OPC Scheduler, now known as TWS and other products installations. After that I started getting also the responsibility of OS390 - Z/OS installations, SMS, DFHSM implementation and Disaster Recovery Planing and execution. Right know I am one of the youngest System Programmer in my actual job. I decided to stay in the mainframe world even thou people said that mainframe was dying, but it has been difficult for me to find an attractive job in the US. Everything is contracts and that is not paying as much as it used to. The people that have been in this field a long time know what I am talking about. Besides when people see in my resume that I am currently living and working in Puerto Rico don't pay that much attention. A lot of people that gratuated with me are just foucused and oriented to open systems. Now I am just wondering if I should have decided to work in Open Systems. Anyway I could keep on writing but I'll start bouring people. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
I think many of the estimates people have givin on this thread seem really high for the number of sysprogs to staff a z/OS site. At PH, for the last 10 years or so, we had 3 sysprogs. We only had a 115 MIP machine, so were very small. I know of a couple of companies in Milwaukee, where the total sysprogs are in the 4 to 8 range - i think closer to 4 than 8. They both are very large. I know one has at least 15 to 20 Lpars on several machines. The other is just one of the larger z boxes, and I don't know how many Lpars there are. My last job had 4 sysprogs with about 2,000 MIPS. They only had 4 Lpars on 2 CPUs. -- Eric Bielefeld Systems Programmer Aviva USA Des Moines, Iowa 515-645-5153 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
Here is my opinion on Z/OS system programer staffing. When I decided to start looking for a new JOB in the mainframe world, I found that many companies were looking for System Programmer Gods that knew about everything. This surprised me because I had enough work only working with implementation of OPC Scheduler, now known as TWS and other products installations. After that I started getting also the responsibility of OS390 - Z/OS installations, SMS, DFHSM implementation and Disaster Recovery Planing and execution. Right know I am one of the youngest System Programmer in my actual job. I decided to stay in the mainframe world even thou people said that mainframe was dying, but it has been difficult for me to find an attractive job in the US. Everything is contracts and that is not paying as much as it used to. The people that have been in this field a long time know what I am talking about. Besides when people see in my resume that I am currently living and working in Puerto Rico don't pay that much attention. A lot of people that gratuated with me are just foucused and oriented to open systems. Now I am just wondering if I should have decided to work in Open Systems. Anyway I could keep on writing but I'll start bouring people. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Gary Green Companies may be looking for System Programmer Gods..., but they only seem willing to pay for newbies. An associate has been looking to move on for some time now. If, IF, he gets to speak with someone at the hiring company (3 out of 14) they either reject him out of hand because, he believes, they can determine his age or probable starting salary, or they think they can get someone younger at a more reasonable salary. He is NOT asking for the world, just a good place he can spend the next 20 years or so. (he says he has no intention of retiring). As in, I'll think about retiring when I'm dead.? He makes these assumptions because each resume submitted is targeted to the hiring requirements so that alone should garner at least an exploratory telephone call from the HR department. One interview back in September called for a very senior systems programmer with some IMS knowledge, which he does not have, but they did agree to interview him. During the interview, he reiterated his lack of deep IMS knowledge (only installed it once a few years ago), but said he could be walking within a couple of weeks and running within a month. They never even returned his follow-up telephone calls. The company is STILL looking... At least that is what he told me over the weekend. Sounds like they don't know what they want. Yet that same company would probably hire a freshly-minted MBA as a consultant at $300/hr without batting an eyelash. Hopefully your colleague is sufficiently secure that, should they ever call back saying come on down, he could (and would) reply, You had your chance. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
Hi, Forgot to mention if you are in the Military, you can do the same work with half the people you need in the private sector. That is what we had to in the South African Military with half the equipment that Carter decided to NOT give us.. Remember, Jimmy the peanut farmer and interest rates of 22%. Yes, I think he received a Nobel peace award for making peace with a little island East of Florida... but my memory is going these days and it could have been a fantasy Him running the USA as leader of the free World. Anton On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:47:44 -0600, Yukus, Mary J CIV USMEPCOM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks everyone for your answers. This tells me we definitely should have more than 2 with a combined sysprog experience level of about 10 years. :-) (I knew this already, but am trying to justify more) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Luis Miguel Martinez Chavez Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 1:19 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing Ideal: ZOS small shops. Few and small local/distributed applications, few LPARS, few ISV products, No Datasharing, One Sysplex, few CICS and DB2 regions/subsystems: 5 up to 10 sysprogs. ZOS medium shops. Local, distributed and Web applications, 10-20 LPARS, less than 10 ISV products, 10-20 CICS regions/subsystems: 15 up to 25 sysprogs. ZOS BIG shops. +1 Parallel Sysplex dozens of LPARs Data Sharing dozens of local,distributed and web applications dozenz of ISV products TB of Data dozens of CICS and DB2 regions/subsystems 1000s concurrent users : +30 sysprogs Reallity: It depends on the company's budget $ and the abilities of the IT Management. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
One other factor to consider is the level of expertise that your DBA and Developer community are. It depends on what role your systems programming staff plays in supporting the general IT community at the company. I know of places where two to many sysprogs are fully employed just in supporting other IT employees. That isn't all bad either, but like Ed previously said, it depends. I would recommend very early in the planning to establish internal support relationships and service levels. You may even factor them into some sort of internal charge so that the heavy users/abusers :) pay for the extra staff. Often times this can be well worth the work too. It's very often that a well rounded systems programmer can quickly bring a problem to resolution simply because they speak more than one tech language. This is becoming more and more often as off host developers are accessing big iron. Ed Gould [EMAIL PROTECTED] AST.NET To Sent by: IBM IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Mainframe cc Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject .EDU Re: z/OS system programmer staffing 02/11/2008 03:37 PM Please respond to IBM Mainframe Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED] .EDU On Feb 11, 2008, at 11:25 AM, Yukus, Mary J CIV USMEPCOM wrote: Can anyone point me in the direction of where to find a good (but minimum) estimate for staffing systems programmers (with various experience levels) to perform all functions of a systems programmer, including installations of OS and vendor software, applying maintenance, troubleshooting errors, maintaining RACF, JES2, TCP/IP,CICS, Oracle, WLM, etc. on two z/OS - z/OS.e, two system sysplexes (not parallel) production system and test system, along with a z/VM OS/IFL used for LINUX instances. Thanks in advance for any help on coming up with this staffing number. Mary Yukus Mary: You have gotten several good answers. Let me through this item into the mix and you will still not have a good answer but will need to think more about any number. As always it DEPENDS. If the installation has a fair amount of mods to the OS then increase the number of sysprogs. How many well it depends on the complexity of the mods and other things. A lot of installations modify JES2 (or JES3) the amount of mods could add one or two people to the MVS support side. If its a one or two line mod then probably a small number. I am guessing here but a lot of installations heavily (moderately?) modify JES3 then probably add 1 or 2 people. This an extremely rough estimate and the complexity of the mods means a lot as to any number you come up with. There are probably a lot few companies that modify MVS, but again it depends on the number and the complexity. It is probably safe to say that the number of companies making mods to MVS are small in number. If you count exits here don't count them as mods but say a .5 of a person. CICS (and IMS) same thing. I knew a place that *HEAVILY* modified CICS and they still can't run above the line. Like someone else said the number of CICS regions sort of dictates the number of CICS sysprogs. There are some installations that are just really complex and those need more others are not quite a complex. One place to look is to figure out how much OT the people are putting in. There are pitfalls in using this but its one place to start, don't use this as a final indication just factor it in. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
We have a shop about your size it sounds like. We do it with 2.5. Combined experience 70 + years. We also do not have Oracle, rather DB2, and no zLinux. It is not enough to stay current with releases. Thanks, Dave Hanson 464-8889 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
Thanks everyone for your answers. This tells me we definitely should have more than 2 with a combined sysprog experience level of about 10 years. :-) (I knew this already, but am trying to justify more) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Luis Miguel Martinez Chavez Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 1:19 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing Ideal: ZOS small shops. Few and small local/distributed applications, few LPARS, few ISV products, No Datasharing, One Sysplex, few CICS and DB2 regions/subsystems: 5 up to 10 sysprogs. ZOS medium shops. Local, distributed and Web applications, 10-20 LPARS, less than 10 ISV products, 10-20 CICS regions/subsystems: 15 up to 25 sysprogs. ZOS BIG shops. +1 Parallel Sysplex dozens of LPARs Data Sharing dozens of local,distributed and web applications dozenz of ISV products TB of Data dozens of CICS and DB2 regions/subsystems 1000s concurrent users : +30 sysprogs Reallity: It depends on the company's budget $ and the abilities of the IT Management. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
* If your shop support some clients (outsourcing) I have some major issues with outsourcing: 1. You lose control of upgrades an tech currency. 2. The service provider keeps you at the absolute minimum level of hardware software. 3. They downgrade the staff skill set, experience, salary. 4. They put a beauracracy in front of any changes. (I know I spelled that wrong) 5. They do NOT improve service delivery (in general, service suffers). 6. They maintain the minimum they can get away with. I know I'm generalising, but at my last job I was hired to bring the service provider to deliver, at least, what was on contract. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Out-sourcing (WAS: z/OS system programmer staffing)
Current administration is again considering outsourcing Many companies fall in the trap, after a 'successful' out-sourcing excercise, of asking the wrong question: What else can we out-source? The correct question is: What is the best mix of in-sourced out-sourced functions that best meet our development needs? - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Ford Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 4:08 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing John, I know several shops who outsourced and a few years later took their environment back because of poor service levels..Too many only see the bottom line... Regards, Scott IDF Been there too. The company that I am currently with had outsourced all the IT (z/OS and Windows). They partially owned the outsourcer. The outsourcer got all the personnel. About 2 years later, they repatriated us. That was about 3 administrations ago. Current administration is again considering outsourcing some functionality that we don't have any expertise in. sigh -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 3:56 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing * If your shop support some clients (outsourcing) I have some major issues with outsourcing: 1. You lose control of upgrades an tech currency. 2. The service provider keeps you at the absolute minimum level of hardware software. 3. They downgrade the staff skill set, experience, salary. 4. They put a beauracracy in front of any changes. (I know I spelled that wrong) 5. They do NOT improve service delivery (in general, service suffers). 6. They maintain the minimum they can get away with. I know I'm generalising, but at my last job I was hired to bring the service provider to deliver, at least, what was on contract. - One that a friend said that happened to them was that the outsourcer de optimized some processes, resulting in greater CPU usage for the same result which meant more money to the outsourcer. And they denied access to some internal parameters for security reasons so it was very difficult to prove. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
I am fixing one point * Some shops try to have one *team* for z/OS, IBM and ISV software cloning for new realeses while having other *team* in a daily basis operations support. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
Another concerns to mention: * If your shop support some clients (outsourcing) * Several IBM operating systems on the boxes: zVM, zVSE, zLinux, zOS. * A lot of virtual machines. * Some shops try to have one equipment for z/OS, IBM and ISV software cloning for new realeses while having other equipment in a daily basis operations support. * Hybrid applications: DB2 multiplatforms, Oracle, Web, CICS, Java, USS, LDAP, Automation. * New implementations: WLC, IRD, * New technologies: ERP, CRM, Busines Intelligence, Data Warehouse, Data Mining , etc * Education of the staff Truly, with sysprogs highly skilled and experienced, the requirement is reduced to much more work days/hours/weekends for these people. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
On Feb 11, 2008, at 11:25 AM, Yukus, Mary J CIV USMEPCOM wrote: Can anyone point me in the direction of where to find a good (but minimum) estimate for staffing systems programmers (with various experience levels) to perform all functions of a systems programmer, including installations of OS and vendor software, applying maintenance, troubleshooting errors, maintaining RACF, JES2, TCP/IP,CICS, Oracle, WLM, etc. on two z/OS - z/OS.e, two system sysplexes (not parallel) production system and test system, along with a z/VM OS/IFL used for LINUX instances. Thanks in advance for any help on coming up with this staffing number. Mary Yukus Mary: You have gotten several good answers. Let me through this item into the mix and you will still not have a good answer but will need to think more about any number. As always it DEPENDS. If the installation has a fair amount of mods to the OS then increase the number of sysprogs. How many well it depends on the complexity of the mods and other things. A lot of installations modify JES2 (or JES3) the amount of mods could add one or two people to the MVS support side. If its a one or two line mod then probably a small number. I am guessing here but a lot of installations heavily (moderately?) modify JES3 then probably add 1 or 2 people. This an extremely rough estimate and the complexity of the mods means a lot as to any number you come up with. There are probably a lot few companies that modify MVS, but again it depends on the number and the complexity. It is probably safe to say that the number of companies making mods to MVS are small in number. If you count exits here don't count them as mods but say a .5 of a person. CICS (and IMS) same thing. I knew a place that *HEAVILY* modified CICS and they still can't run above the line. Like someone else said the number of CICS regions sort of dictates the number of CICS sysprogs. There are some installations that are just really complex and those need more others are not quite a complex. One place to look is to figure out how much OT the people are putting in. There are pitfalls in using this but its one place to start, don't use this as a final indication just factor it in. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
I have worked in a couple locations that are smaller than you mentioned. 3 LPARS, 10-12 CICS images, DB2. We had 4 in both locations. Following is the general breakdown of tasks. Fortunately there was very little turnover. Jim Lead Systems Programmer Primary responsibilities z/OS Performance and tuning Networking System problems Secondary responsibilities CICS and DB2 Unix System Services Hierarchical File System Disaster Recovery Systems Programmer Primary responsibilities DB2 Storage Administration Backups Disaster Recovery Secondary responsibilities CICS and z/OS Security Administration Performance and tuning System problems Systems Programmer Primary responsibilities Printing issues ADSM RMM Security Administration Secondary responsibilities CICS and z/OS and DB2 Storage Administration Backups System problems Systems Programmer Primary responsibilities CICS IBM product installation ISV product installations Unix System Services Hierarchical File System Secondary responsibilities z/OS and DB2 System problems Hierarchical File System Web Servers Disaster Recovery System problems All ISV product installations -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Staller, Allan Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:14 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing Although the relationship is not linear, there is also the issue of complexity to be dealt with. At one shop I worked, (10 sysplexs, 44 LPARs, 20+ CECs), the CICS person was Actually 5 people). The z/OS sysprog was 8 and the Oracle(DB2/IMS) person was 6. In my current environment, all of the below is 4. HTH, snip CICS is generally one person. Oracle is generally one person as well. z/VM and Linux - one or two primary people, depending on the number of VMs and Linux instances. The z/OS sysprogs are capable of pulling double duty here, but that may be cutting it to close. You do not mention performance and capacity, storage management or web services. Shift coverage, sick time, vacations, etc. are other considerations. With a variety of skill levels, the number should probably be between 15-20 people if you include the skills and issues that I mentioned. With highly experienced systems programmers in all of the above disciplines, 10-15. Less than 10 would affect your shop's ability to meet schedules *or* would probably lead to burnout. /snip -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
Although the relationship is not linear, there is also the issue of complexity to be dealt with. At one shop I worked, (10 sysplexs, 44 LPARs, 20+ CECs), the CICS person was Actually 5 people). The z/OS sysprog was 8 and the Oracle(DB2/IMS) person was 6. In my current environment, all of the below is 4. HTH, snip CICS is generally one person. Oracle is generally one person as well. z/VM and Linux - one or two primary people, depending on the number of VMs and Linux instances. The z/OS sysprogs are capable of pulling double duty here, but that may be cutting it to close. You do not mention performance and capacity, storage management or web services. Shift coverage, sick time, vacations, etc. are other considerations. With a variety of skill levels, the number should probably be between 15-20 people if you include the skills and issues that I mentioned. With highly experienced systems programmers in all of the above disciplines, 10-15. Less than 10 would affect your shop's ability to meet schedules *or* would probably lead to burnout. /snip -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
Mary, CICS is generally one person. Oracle is generally one person as well. z/VM and Linux - one or two primary people, depending on the number of VMs and Linux instances. The z/OS sysprogs are capable of pulling double duty here, but that may be cutting it to close. You do not mention performance and capacity, storage management or web services. Shift coverage, sick time, vacations, etc. are other considerations. With a variety of skill levels, the number should probably be between 15-20 people if you include the skills and issues that I mentioned. With highly experienced systems programmers in all of the above disciplines, 10-15. Less than 10 would affect your shop's ability to meet schedules *or* would probably lead to burnout. Just my opinion. You got what you paid for. YMMV :-) And I know there are folks out there supporting an environment like you described that are currently under the 10 people I alluded to. Those folks are masochistic workaholics with no life. just kidding, I thinkyou know who you are! LOL Bob - Robert B. Richards(Bob) US Office of Personnel Management 1900 E Street NW Room: BH04L Washington, D.C. 20415 Phone: (202) 606-1195 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Yukus, Mary J CIV USMEPCOM Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:25 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: z/OS system programmer staffing Can anyone point me in the direction of where to find a good (but minimum) estimate for staffing systems programmers (with various experience levels) to perform all functions of a systems programmer, including installations of OS and vendor software, applying maintenance, troubleshooting errors, maintaining RACF, JES2, TCP/IP,CICS, Oracle, WLM, etc. on two z/OS - z/OS.e, two system sysplexes (not parallel) production system and test system, along with a z/VM OS/IFL used for LINUX instances. Thanks in advance for any help on coming up with this staffing number. Mary Yukus -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:20:06 +, Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the installation has a fair amount of mods to the OS then increase the number of sysprogs. How many well it depends on the complexity of the mods and other things. I hope you mean exits! ... Unfortuantely, mods are not dead. Nor does mods have to mean USERMODs. :-( We have libraries concatenated in front of SYS1.LINKLIST and SYS1.LPALIB. Containing modules with aliases like ICEGENER, IEBCOPY, IEBGENER, IEBUPDTE, IEHPROGM, IGWSPZAP, and IMASPZAP. That's one module. It's primary function is to reserve datasets under some circumstances. A secondary function is to produce 0C4 abends under other circumstances. Hopefully we are an extreme case - alone in the world. But I wouldn't take bets on it. If you are an old enough shop to have closets that could contain skeletons, they probably *do* contain skeletons. And this is not the sort of thing you want to find after you've laid off a bunch of unneeded system programmers. Pat O'Keefe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
On Feb 11, 2008, at 3:34 PM, Luis M Martinez wrote: Another concerns to mention: * If your shop support some clients (outsourcing) * Several IBM operating systems on the boxes: zVM, zVSE, zLinux, zOS. * A lot of virtual machines. * Some shops try to have one equipment for z/OS, IBM and ISV software cloning for new realeses while having other equipment in a daily basis operations support. * Hybrid applications: DB2 multiplatforms, Oracle, Web, CICS, Java, USS, LDAP, Automation. * New implementations: WLC, IRD, * New technologies: ERP, CRM, Busines Intelligence, Data Warehouse, Data Mining , etc * Education of the staff Some valid additions but there is also a issue where the companies that were outsourced fought back with constant questions and issues that were non issues and things like COBOL usage it was a constant barrage of phone calls. Throw into the mix difficult items like LE (or pick a difficult product) the people just liked to throw problems/ questions our way *JUST* to be PITA's. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
Hi, Don't worry John..the White House tried to slip a few Billion into the Budget last week , to save Health/IBM/IT sector.. It's ONLINE now and everybody can go and read it Only problem, they have to approve it and what I saw on C-SPAN, it was renamed as Dead on Departure... Never heard that before but it sounds original... Dead on Departure.. Anton On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 16:11:35 -0600, McKown, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Ford Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 4:08 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing John, I know several shops who outsourced and a few years later took their environment back because of poor service levels..Too many only see the bottom line... Regards, Scott IDF Been there too. The company that I am currently with had outsourced all the IT (z/OS and Windows). They partially owned the outsourcer. The outsourcer got all the personnel. About 2 years later, they repatriated us. That was about 3 administrations ago. Current administration is again considering outsourcing some functionality that we don't have any expertise in. sigh -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
I know several shops who outsourced and a few years later took their environment back because of poor service levels..Too many only see the bottom line... But, poor service levels impact the bottom line. Most out-sourcing arrangements don't see that until after the dirty deed is done. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
John, I know several shops who outsourced and a few years later took their environment back because of poor service levels..Too many only see the bottom line... Regards, Scott IDF -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 5:02 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 3:56 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS system programmer staffing * If your shop support some clients (outsourcing) I have some major issues with outsourcing: 1. You lose control of upgrades an tech currency. 2. The service provider keeps you at the absolute minimum level of hardware software. 3. They downgrade the staff skill set, experience, salary. 4. They put a beauracracy in front of any changes. (I know I spelled that wrong) 5. They do NOT improve service delivery (in general, service suffers). 6. They maintain the minimum they can get away with. I know I'm generalising, but at my last job I was hired to bring the service provider to deliver, at least, what was on contract. - One that a friend said that happened to them was that the outsourcer de optimized some processes, resulting in greater CPU usage for the same result which meant more money to the outsourcer. And they denied access to some internal parameters for security reasons so it was very difficult to prove. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
If the installation has a fair amount of mods to the OS then increase the number of sysprogs. How many well it depends on the complexity of the mods and other things. I hope you mean exits! I haven't seen a shop with mods in a long time. I worked with an Operations manager (just before XA), who used to work at IBM. He couldn't tell us anything; XA hadn't been announced, yet. He was governed by nda/ip up until the 3090, so he had to keep his mouth shut. Anyways, he had authority to disallow any mods. Which he did. We went from almost 100 to 2 or 3. Then XA and OCO came out. The last ones were turned into exits, as the original set had been. We lost a few functions, but the company has been mod-free since the mid-1980's. In the 1960's-1970's, there were system programmers that marketted themselves on the ability to modify MFT/MVT code. I thing, since the 1980's, there are very few shops with mods (I hope!). The last effective set was the Melon Bank mods. THRUPUT Mangler has taken care of most of that, if not all, by exits. (PS: MVS Solutions (the developers of TM) is a Canadian Company based in Markham Ontario) - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
On Feb 11, 2008, at 3:20 PM, Ted MacNEIL wrote: If the installation has a fair amount of mods to the OS then increase the number of sysprogs. How many well it depends on the complexity of the mods and other things. I hope you mean exits! I haven't seen a shop with mods in a long time. I worked with an Operations manager (just before XA), who used to work at IBM. He couldn't tell us anything; XA hadn't been announced, yet. He was governed by nda/ip up until the 3090, so he had to keep his mouth shut. No I did not mean exits. I explained separately about the exit item. I still know of a few companies that make changes to MVS. No major changes granted but a few none the less. One company insisted on changing titles in EREP (BFD I Agree) but it is a mod. The same company wanted a MLWTO at NIP to put in a warning messages about changing any IEASYS options. I know again (BFD) but it was a mod. The company was hiper critical of operations changing *ANYTHING* (they got burned once to often). Anyways, he had authority to disallow any mods. Which he did. We went from almost 100 to 2 or 3. Then XA and OCO came out. The last ones were turned into exits, as the original set had been. We lost a few functions, but the company has been mod-free since the mid-1980's. In the 1960's-1970's, there were system programmers that marketted themselves on the ability to modify MFT/MVT code. I thing, since the 1980's, there are very few shops with mods (I hope!). The last effective set was the Melon Bank mods. THRUPUT Mangler has taken care of most of that, if not all, by exits. While I agree with you (a little) on OEM packages. I would never buy any package that messed around with front ending any IBM code. I won't bore you with stories suffice it to say we had major issues with a couple of vendors (grant you we had one vendor that really got its hands dirty but they never caused an outage of any kind. One vendor we tried to de-install and it wouldn't I finally had to restore the respack to the point before they were installed. That was a 3 hour outage that hurt us dearly. I will not name the vendor so don't ask. I learned the hard way on that vendor. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
Ideal: ZOS small shops. Few and small local/distributed applications, few LPARS, few ISV products, No Datasharing, One Sysplex, few CICS and DB2 regions/subsystems: 5 up to 10 sysprogs. ZOS medium shops. Local, distributed and Web applications, 10-20 LPARS, less than 10 ISV products, 10-20 CICS regions/subsystems: 15 up to 25 sysprogs. ZOS BIG shops. +1 Parallel Sysplex dozens of LPARs Data Sharing dozens of local,distributed and web applications dozenz of ISV products TB of Data dozens of CICS and DB2 regions/subsystems 1000s concurrent users : +30 sysprogs Reallity: It depends on the company's budget $ and the abilities of the IT Management. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
z/OS system programmer staffing
Can anyone point me in the direction of where to find a good (but minimum) estimate for staffing systems programmers (with various experience levels) to perform all functions of a systems programmer, including installations of OS and vendor software, applying maintenance, troubleshooting errors, maintaining RACF, JES2, TCP/IP,CICS, Oracle, WLM, etc. on two z/OS - z/OS.e, two system sysplexes (not parallel) production system and test system, along with a z/VM OS/IFL used for LINUX instances. Thanks in advance for any help on coming up with this staffing number. Mary Yukus -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
On Feb 11, 2008, at 4:40 PM, Patrick O'Keefe wrote: On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 21:20:06 +, Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the installation has a fair amount of mods to the OS then increase the number of sysprogs. How many well it depends on the complexity of the mods and other things. I hope you mean exits! ... Unfortuantely, mods are not dead. Nor does mods have to mean USERMODs. :-( We have libraries concatenated in front of SYS1.LINKLIST and SYS1.LPALIB. Containing modules with aliases like ICEGENER, IEBCOPY, IEBGENER, IEBUPDTE, IEHPROGM, IGWSPZAP, and IMASPZAP. That's one module. It's primary function is to reserve datasets under some circumstances. A secondary function is to produce 0C4 abends under other circumstances. Hopefully we are an extreme case - alone in the world. But I wouldn't take bets on it. If you are an old enough shop to have closets that could contain skeletons, they probably *do* contain skeletons. And this is not the sort of thing you want to find after you've laid off a bunch of unneeded system programmers. Pat O'Keefe Chuckle. Yes who needs sysprogs when you have windows. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:27:53 -0800, Edward Jaffe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... ... We have libraries concatenated in front of SYS1.LINKLIST and ... I don't have that library on any of my systems. ... I, of course, meant SYS1.LINKLIB in the linklist concatenation. And the problem I refered to related to the LPALIB concatenation anyway. Pat O'Keefe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: z/OS system programmer staffing
Patrick O'Keefe wrote: ... We have libraries concatenated in front of SYS1.LINKLIST and ... I don't have that library on any of my systems. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
