FW: mainframe selling points
Interesting note from a list reader... BTW David, IBM Main list membership is free. The only membership requirement is to be interested in the list. Don -Original Message- From: david kramf [mailto:dakr@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 4:56 AM To: donb...@gmail.com Subject: mainframe selling points Hi Don, My name is David Kramf .I picked your name as one of the participants to this conversation that on the IBM mailing list digest. Hope I am not intruding. I am a very experienced MF developer . I quit my job several months ago to do more interesting stuff and trying to develop on my own. This is impossible to do on the MF platform because the MF is not accessible . You need to invest about 5K to 10K just to to have it (legally ) on your personal pc based, and there is no freely, updated and convenient system where you can buy your virtual server at a reasonable price. ( I pay 20 dollars a month for a linux VS. This is a reasonable price ). So I migrated myself to other platforms (OS X , LINUX , RUBY ) where you can easily get access to development platforms and can later distribute your product. If IBM won't make an effort to open the MF platform for the huge multitude of developers working and developing around the world on LINUX , smartphones , and tablets , then the MF is doomed. Thank You very much for reading , and I will be much obliged if you send this message to the mailing list ( I am not a member myself ). David Kramf Tel-Aviv , ISRAEL = -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points
On 1/31/2013 7:32 AM, Don Williams wrote: Interesting note from a list reader... BTW David, IBM Main list membership is free. The only membership requirement is to be interested in the list. Don -Original Message- From: david kramf [mailto:dakr@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 4:56 AM To: donb...@gmail.com Subject: mainframe selling points Hi Don, My name is David Kramf .I picked your name as one of the participants to this conversation that on the IBM mailing list digest. Hope I am not intruding. I am a very experienced MF developer . I quit my job several months ago to do more interesting stuff and trying to develop on my own. This is impossible to do on the MF platform because the MF is not accessible . You need to invest about 5K to 10K just to to have it (legally ) on your personal pc based, and there is no freely, updated and convenient system where you can buy your virtual server at a reasonable price. ( I pay 20 dollars a month for a linux VS. This is a reasonable price ). So I migrated myself to other platforms (OS X , LINUX , RUBY ) where you can easily get access to development platforms and can later distribute your product. If IBM won't make an effort to open the MF platform for the huge multitude of developers working and developing around the world on LINUX , smartphones , and tablets , then the MF is doomed. Well, the mainframe is doomed for those who think small. The mainframe is not the platform for small. Thank You very much for reading , and I will be much obliged if you send this message to the mailing list ( I am not a member myself ). David Kramf Tel-Aviv , ISRAEL = -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Kind regards, -Steve Comstock The Trainer's Friend, Inc. 303-355-2752 http://www.trainersfriend.com * To get a good Return on your Investment, first make an investment! + Training your people is an excellent investment * Try our tool for calculating your Return On Investment for training dollars at http://www.trainersfriend.com/ROI/roi.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points
As point of comparison, merge this with prior info from Timothy (comments after): On 01/31/2013 08:32 AM, Don Williams wrote: Interesting note from a list reader... BTW David, IBM Main list membership is free. The only membership requirement is to be interested in the list. Don -Original Message- From: david kramf [mailto:dakr@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 4:56 AM To: donb...@gmail.com Subject: mainframe selling points Hi Don, My name is David Kramf .I picked your name as one of the participants to this conversation that on the IBM mailing list digest. Hope I am not intruding. I am a very experienced MF developer . I quit my job several months ago to do more interesting stuff and trying to develop on my own. This is impossible to do on the MF platform because the MF is not accessible . You need to invest about 5K to 10K just to to have it (legally ) on your personal pc based, and there is no freely, updated and convenient system where you can buy your virtual server at a reasonable price. ( I pay 20 dollars a month for a linux VS. This is a reasonable price ). So I migrated myself to other platforms (OS X , LINUX , RUBY ) where you can easily get access to development platforms and can later distribute your product. If IBM won't make an effort to open the MF platform for the huge multitude of developers working and developing around the world on LINUX , smartphones , and tablets , then the MF is doomed. Thank You very much for reading , and I will be much obliged if you send this message to the mailing list ( I am not a member myself ). David Kramf Tel-Aviv , ISRAEL = On 01/30/2013 11:56 PM, Timothy Sipples wrote: A couple points (and not new ones, but I guess they need repeating): 1. You don't need a zPDT, RUTz, or zEnterprise machine to develop and test for z/OS and its middleware. In fact, in many cases you don't need to pay even one dollar. IBM's PartnerWorld Validation Program for z/OS is one notable example: https://www-304.ibm.com/partnerworld/wps/servlet/ContentHandler/stg_com_agr_zos That's a real zEnterprise machine located in Dallas, as it happens. Free is a rather good price! Here's some more information: https://www-304.ibm.com/partnerworld/wps/servlet/ContentHandler/isv_com_tsp_iic_resources_systemz_remote_offerings ... Timothy Sipples Both of the alternatives Timothy mentions require a company with IBM PartnerWorld membership. I may be misinterpreting the PartnerWorld requirements, but my impression was that you had to be an software vendor/developer to apply, not just be exploring whether you could develop the capability for z/OS application development to become a z/OS vendor/developer.Assuming that it would be possible for a small, not-yet-established startup company to apply, the free Validation Program is for a limited time (60 days), and although re-application sounds possible, it also reads like acceptance is not guaranteed, and that this is intended for development. The Remote Offerings option is not free but based on CP and storage resource usage, with a minimal usage level and minimum monthly charge of $550/month, which obviously doesn't compare very favorably with the $20/month quoted cost of a Linux VM development platform. I think the point made by David Kramf is well taken: that if you have a sound concept for an application and are exploring starting out on your own into application development, the more-than-an-order-of-magnitude increase in up-front investment required to develop for the z/OS platform versus Linux is a serious impediment to choosing z/OS as a platform, even if you already have a z/OS skill set. One can perhaps make a valid argument that this guarantees that companies marketing z/OS software must have a certain minimal size and capability for product support that is appropriate to a platform where RAS is of such great importance, but it also guarantees that most potential developers and start-up software companies will choose alternative platforms. -- Joel C. Ewing,Bentonville, AR jcew...@acm.org -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points
snip Well, the mainframe is doomed for those who think small. The mainframe is not the platform for small. snip Agreed, small apps that have no need to scale up, have no need for a mainframe. Does this mean a M/F developer needs to have deep pockets to be successful? Don -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points
On 1/31/2013 8:40 AM, Don Williams wrote: Does this mean a M/F developer needs to have deep pockets to be successful? Depends on your definition of deep. Last I checked it was $500/month for fully-supported remote development out of Dallas. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs
From: Edward Jaffe edja...@phoenixsoftware.com Date: 01/31/2013 11:17 AM On 1/31/2013 8:40 AM, Don Williams wrote: Does this mean a M/F developer needs to have deep pockets to be successful? Depends on your definition of deep. Last I checked it was $500/month for fully-supported remote development out of Dallas. - Let's play devil's advocate. You have decided that you want to develop a product for z/OS. If you do not develop it in Java, or c/C++, then how do you do your development in your own sandbox? This, so that you only need, perhaps six months of fixing the rough spots on an actual z/OS system. You can't get CICS in a Herc environment running MVS 3.8J (O now?). Let's say that you have FJ COBOL. So you set the options to be for COBOL-II. Now you do all your development that you can. But wait, you need ISPF at a minimum to drive terminals. Can't do that on a Herc system. Come to think of it, FJ COBOL will not generate for the Herc environment. So that option is gone too. One programmer, who has roughed out a system, using VSAM or DB2, has, for the sake of argument, 2-3 man years of coding to do with debugging. So we will say 3 to include documenting and testing. US$500 * 12 * 3 = US$19,500Just for the system out of Dallas. What will be the cost of documenting your software, and who will do it at what cost? (manual printing or CD/DVD commercial quality stuff). How much do you have to have in pocket to handle 3 years of start up expenses? Would that be somewhere around $200K? Now, you need a paying client. What are your costs to get that first client and get them to production and you into maint mode and not development? How many clients do you need before you are covering your ongoing US$500/mo. and all of your start up costs, so that you have a positive cash flow? Using your own home systems, how long does it take you to develop something in c/C++ .net, Java, etc. and be able to sell it? For a one man startup, $200K is a lot of money. BTDT. And the business I had was NOT in IT. Regards, Steve Thompson Opinions expressed by this poster do not necessarily reflect those of poster's employer. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs
- Original Message - From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Thu Jan 31 12:37:25 2013 Subject: Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs From: Edward Jaffe edja...@phoenixsoftware.com Date: 01/31/2013 11:17 AM On 1/31/2013 8:40 AM, Don Williams wrote: Does this mean a M/F developer needs to have deep pockets to be successful? Depends on your definition of deep. Last I checked it was $500/month for fully-supported remote development out of Dallas. - Let's play devil's advocate. You have decided that you want to develop a product for z/OS. If you do not develop it in Java, or c/C++, then how do you do your development in your own sandbox? This, so that you only need, perhaps six months of fixing the rough spots on an actual z/OS system. You can't get CICS in a Herc environment running MVS 3.8J (O now?). Let's say that you have FJ COBOL. So you set the options to be for COBOL-II. Now you do all your development that you can. But wait, you need ISPF at a minimum to drive terminals. Can't do that on a Herc system. Come to think of it, FJ COBOL will not generate for the Herc environment. So that option is gone too. One programmer, who has roughed out a system, using VSAM or DB2, has, for the sake of argument, 2-3 man years of coding to do with debugging. So we will say 3 to include documenting and testing. US$500 * 12 * 3 = US$19,500Just for the system out of Dallas. What will be the cost of documenting your software, and who will do it at what cost? (manual printing or CD/DVD commercial quality stuff). How much do you have to have in pocket to handle 3 years of start up expenses? Would that be somewhere around $200K? Now, you need a paying client. What are your costs to get that first client and get them to production and you into maint mode and not development? How many clients do you need before you are covering your ongoing US$500/mo. and all of your start up costs, so that you have a positive cash flow? Using your own home systems, how long does it take you to develop something in c/C++ .net, Java, etc. and be able to sell it? For a one man startup, $200K is a lot of money. BTDT. And the business I had was NOT in IT. Regards, Steve Thompson Opinions expressed by this poster do not necessarily reflect those of poster's employer. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN = Please note that this e-mail and any files transmitted from Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any reading, dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this communication or any of its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message and deleting this message, any attachments, and all copies and backups from your computer. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points
Joel, Thanks. You have succinctly expressed my opinion. Don -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:06 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: FW: mainframe selling points As point of comparison, merge this with prior info from Timothy (comments after): On 01/31/2013 08:32 AM, Don Williams wrote: Interesting note from a list reader... BTW David, IBM Main list membership is free. The only membership requirement is to be interested in the list. Don -Original Message- From: david kramf [mailto:dakr@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 4:56 AM To: donb...@gmail.com Subject: mainframe selling points Hi Don, My name is David Kramf .I picked your name as one of the participants to this conversation that on the IBM mailing list digest. Hope I am not intruding. I am a very experienced MF developer . I quit my job several months ago to do more interesting stuff and trying to develop on my own. This is impossible to do on the MF platform because the MF is not accessible . You need to invest about 5K to 10K just to to have it (legally ) on your personal pc based, and there is no freely, updated and convenient system where you can buy your virtual server at a reasonable price. ( I pay 20 dollars a month for a linux VS. This is a reasonable price ). So I migrated myself to other platforms (OS X , LINUX , RUBY ) where you can easily get access to development platforms and can later distribute your product. If IBM won't make an effort to open the MF platform for the huge multitude of developers working and developing around the world on LINUX , smartphones , and tablets , then the MF is doomed. Thank You very much for reading , and I will be much obliged if you send this message to the mailing list ( I am not a member myself ). David Kramf Tel-Aviv , ISRAEL = On 01/30/2013 11:56 PM, Timothy Sipples wrote: A couple points (and not new ones, but I guess they need repeating): 1. You don't need a zPDT, RUTz, or zEnterprise machine to develop and test for z/OS and its middleware. In fact, in many cases you don't need to pay even one dollar. IBM's PartnerWorld Validation Program for z/OS is one notable example: https://www- 304.ibm.com/partnerworld/wps/servlet/ContentHandler/stg_com_agr_zos That's a real zEnterprise machine located in Dallas, as it happens. Free is a rather good price! Here's some more information: https://www- 304.ibm.com/partnerworld/wps/servlet/ContentHandler/isv_com_tsp_iic_res ources_systemz_remote_offerings ... Timothy Sipples Both of the alternatives Timothy mentions require a company with IBM PartnerWorld membership. I may be misinterpreting the PartnerWorld requirements, but my impression was that you had to be an software vendor/developer to apply, not just be exploring whether you could develop the capability for z/OS application development to become a z/OS vendor/developer.Assuming that it would be possible for a small, not-yet-established startup company to apply, the free Validation Program is for a limited time (60 days), and although re-application sounds possible, it also reads like acceptance is not guaranteed, and that this is intended for development. The Remote Offerings option is not free but based on CP and storage resource usage, with a minimal usage level and minimum monthly charge of $550/month, which obviously doesn't compare very favorably with the $20/month quoted cost of a Linux VM development platform. I think the point made by David Kramf is well taken: that if you have a sound concept for an application and are exploring starting out on your own into application development, the more-than-an-order-of-magnitude increase in up-front investment required to develop for the z/OS platform versus Linux is a serious impediment to choosing z/OS as a platform, even if you already have a z/OS skill set. One can perhaps make a valid argument that this guarantees that companies marketing z/OS software must have a certain minimal size and capability for product support that is appropriate to a platform where RAS is of such great importance, but it also guarantees that most potential developers and start-up software companies will choose alternative platforms. -- Joel C. Ewing,Bentonville, AR jcew...@acm.org -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access
Re: FW: mainframe selling points
Yes, deep and long are going to relative... $500/month is only $6000/year, $18,000 for 3 years, $30,000 for 5 years. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Edward Jaffe Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 12:14 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: FW: mainframe selling points On 1/31/2013 8:40 AM, Don Williams wrote: Does this mean a M/F developer needs to have deep pockets to be successful? Depends on your definition of deep. Last I checked it was $500/month for fully-supported remote development out of Dallas. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs
I would like to return to the selling point issue. I stated that there are many technologies that run better outside the mainframe like Cobol and sort. Don't take my word, ask Gartner's Dale Vecchio. have a look at this video on http://www.platformmodernization.org/Pages/about.asp Itschak On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 7:37 PM, Steve Thompson sthomp...@us.ibm.comwrote: From: Edward Jaffe edja...@phoenixsoftware.com Date: 01/31/2013 11:17 AM On 1/31/2013 8:40 AM, Don Williams wrote: Does this mean a M/F developer needs to have deep pockets to be successful? Depends on your definition of deep. Last I checked it was $500/month for fully-supported remote development out of Dallas. - Let's play devil's advocate. You have decided that you want to develop a product for z/OS. If you do not develop it in Java, or c/C++, then how do you do your development in your own sandbox? This, so that you only need, perhaps six months of fixing the rough spots on an actual z/OS system. You can't get CICS in a Herc environment running MVS 3.8J (O now?). Let's say that you have FJ COBOL. So you set the options to be for COBOL-II. Now you do all your development that you can. But wait, you need ISPF at a minimum to drive terminals. Can't do that on a Herc system. Come to think of it, FJ COBOL will not generate for the Herc environment. So that option is gone too. One programmer, who has roughed out a system, using VSAM or DB2, has, for the sake of argument, 2-3 man years of coding to do with debugging. So we will say 3 to include documenting and testing. US$500 * 12 * 3 = US$19,500Just for the system out of Dallas. What will be the cost of documenting your software, and who will do it at what cost? (manual printing or CD/DVD commercial quality stuff). How much do you have to have in pocket to handle 3 years of start up expenses? Would that be somewhere around $200K? Now, you need a paying client. What are your costs to get that first client and get them to production and you into maint mode and not development? How many clients do you need before you are covering your ongoing US$500/mo. and all of your start up costs, so that you have a positive cash flow? Using your own home systems, how long does it take you to develop something in c/C++ .net, Java, etc. and be able to sell it? For a one man startup, $200K is a lot of money. BTDT. And the business I had was NOT in IT. Regards, Steve Thompson Opinions expressed by this poster do not necessarily reflect those of poster's employer. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs
Gartner ?? they are and have been against M/F since the mid 80's...Even back then saying it was dead From: Itschak Mugzach imugz...@gmail.com To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Date: 01/31/2013 02:25 PM Subject:Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU I would like to return to the selling point issue. I stated that there are many technologies that run better outside the mainframe like Cobol and sort. Don't take my word, ask Gartner's Dale Vecchio. have a look at this video on http://www.platformmodernization.org/Pages/about.asp Itschak On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 7:37 PM, Steve Thompson sthomp...@us.ibm.comwrote: From: Edward Jaffe edja...@phoenixsoftware.com Date: 01/31/2013 11:17 AM On 1/31/2013 8:40 AM, Don Williams wrote: Does this mean a M/F developer needs to have deep pockets to be successful? Depends on your definition of deep. Last I checked it was $500/month for fully-supported remote development out of Dallas. - Let's play devil's advocate. You have decided that you want to develop a product for z/OS. If you do not develop it in Java, or c/C++, then how do you do your development in your own sandbox? This, so that you only need, perhaps six months of fixing the rough spots on an actual z/OS system. You can't get CICS in a Herc environment running MVS 3.8J (O now?). Let's say that you have FJ COBOL. So you set the options to be for COBOL-II. Now you do all your development that you can. But wait, you need ISPF at a minimum to drive terminals. Can't do that on a Herc system. Come to think of it, FJ COBOL will not generate for the Herc environment. So that option is gone too. One programmer, who has roughed out a system, using VSAM or DB2, has, for the sake of argument, 2-3 man years of coding to do with debugging. So we will say 3 to include documenting and testing. US$500 * 12 * 3 = US$19,500Just for the system out of Dallas. What will be the cost of documenting your software, and who will do it at what cost? (manual printing or CD/DVD commercial quality stuff). How much do you have to have in pocket to handle 3 years of start up expenses? Would that be somewhere around $200K? Now, you need a paying client. What are your costs to get that first client and get them to production and you into maint mode and not development? How many clients do you need before you are covering your ongoing US$500/mo. and all of your start up costs, so that you have a positive cash flow? Using your own home systems, how long does it take you to develop something in c/C++ .net, Java, etc. and be able to sell it? For a one man startup, $200K is a lot of money. BTDT. And the business I had was NOT in IT. Regards, Steve Thompson Opinions expressed by this poster do not necessarily reflect those of poster's employer. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Email Disclaimer This E-mail contains confidential information belonging to the sender, which may be legally privileged information. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity addressed above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the E-mail or attached files is strictly prohibited. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs
On 1/31/2013 9:37 AM, Steve Thompson wrote: One programmer, who has roughed out a system, using VSAM or DB2, has, for the sake of argument, 2-3 man years of coding to do with debugging. So we will say 3 to include documenting and testing. US$500 * 12 * 3 = US$19,500Just for the system out of Dallas. Having paid many tens of thousands of $ in my younger days on a per-CPU-second basis for time-sharing to develop my software ideas, a flat $500/month for multiple developers using a fully-supported, private z/OS system with the latest hardware, an exhaustive software stack, and expert technical support seems pretty darn reasonable to me! By comparison, an MSDN Visual Studio Ultimate subscription from Microsoft is $13K + $5K/year PER DEVELOPER, doesn't include hardware or system configuration expertise, and provides only four tech support incidents per year. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs
From: Itschak Mugzach imugz...@gmail.com Date: 01/31/2013 02:26 PM I would like to return to the selling point issue. I stated that there are many technologies that run better outside the mainframe like Cobol and sort. Don't take my word, ask Gartner's Dale Vecchio. have a look at this video on http://www.platformmodernization.org/Pages/about.asp SNIPPAGE I think I will have to challenge this COBOL statement. Come to think of it, the SORT statement as well. But first, how will they compare a COBOL program on a non-z/Architecture machine to a z/Architecture machine? You will have to normalize the two machines to each other to determine if the one COBOL is faster than the other. But then, that rather obfuscates the whole point. Take their mainframe slamming with a bag of salt. Regards, Steve Thompson Opinions expressed by this poster may not reflect those of poster's employer. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs
Steve Thompson wrote: Using your own home systems, how long does it take you to develop something in c/C++ .net, Java, etc. and be able to sell it? For a one man startup, $200K is a lot of money. BTDT. And the business I had was NOT in IT. Regards, Steve Thompson Steve, Dignus does offer Windows/Linux licenses of its cross-platform software (Systems/ASM, Systems/C and Systems/C++.) That may help offset some of the start-up costs, depending on how you can get access to a mainframe. For example - many people have negotiated access to their first customer's system for a (significant) discount on the software. Thus, you can use Dignus software to develop on your Windows/Linux box and use your first customer's mainframe to accomplish the testing. That can really lower the barrier to entry for mainframe development. Note, your issues aren't limited to mainframe software development... consider opening a restuarant... you have to acquire the kitchen equiptment, lease/purchase the space, do significant advertising, etc... before you sell the first plate of food. Every start-up enterprise requires a non-trivial initial investment. - Dave Rivers - -- riv...@dignus.comWork: (919) 676-0847 Get your mainframe programming tools at http://www.dignus.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs
From: Thomas David Rivers riv...@dignus.com To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu, Date: 01/31/2013 03:42 PM Subject:Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu Steve Thompson wrote: Using your own home systems, how long does it take you to develop something in c/C++ .net, Java, etc. and be able to sell it? For a one man startup, $200K is a lot of money. BTDT. And the business I had was NOT in IT. Regards, Steve Thompson SNIPPAGE Note, your issues aren't limited to mainframe software development... consider opening a restuarant... you have to acquire the kitchen equiptment, lease/purchase the space, do significant advertising, etc... before you sell the first plate of food. Every start-up enterprise requires a non-trivial initial investment. SNIPPAGE Software development is the only industry that I know of that has such a long startup time. Ok, maybe building your own plane takes longer. But since you ask, in an indirect way, I got into the business of dismantling old timber framed barns for re-erection. We had to buy commercial vehicles (which is why I have a CDL: A to this day.), get a DOT number, etc. Our cash flow was affected by the weather (ever try to start a diesel engine at -12F?). But, we had revenue within 30 days of start up. You won't do that with software. At least not in my experience. But when I see someone trying to get 10,000 (pick the small animal of your choice) to pull a plow instead of two good draft horses (yes I have plowed with horses, once. I love a good tractor), I tend to mention the problem. Regards, Steve Thompson Opinions expressed by this poster may not reflect those of poster's employer. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Steve Thompson sthomp...@us.ibm.com wrote: From: Thomas David Rivers riv...@dignus.com To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu, Date: 01/31/2013 03:42 PM Subject:Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu snip You won't do that with software. At least not in my experience. But when I see someone trying to get 10,000 (pick the small animal of your choice) to pull a plow instead of two good draft horses (yes I have plowed with horses, once. I love a good tractor), I tend to mention the problem. Perhaps, like current supercomputers, you need to invent the MPP for the mice? In this case MPP stands for Massively Parallel Plows. I will admit that I don't know if current business practices are really set up for computer MPP. But, then again, a MPP RMDS could distribute something like: UPDATE TABLE SET COLUMN=1.1*COLUMN over multiple processors. Of course, there is still a problem with memory interference or disk drive interference. Sometimes nothing beats a fast CP and fast I/O to a single fast disk (or use a PCIe attached SSD). Regards, Steve Thompson Opinions expressed by this poster may not reflect those of poster's employer. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Maranatha! John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs
On 1/02/2013 7:53, Edward Jaffe wrote: By comparison, an MSDN Visual Studio Ultimate subscription from Microsoft is $13K + $5K/year PER DEVELOPER, doesn't include hardware or system configuration expertise, and provides only four tech support incidents per year. That is the very top end cost... there are many cheaper options, including free Express versions of the compiler. And for startups, Microsoft has the BizSpark program which provides pretty much everything for developing on Windows free for 3 years, for organizations less than 5 years old and with revenue less than one million dollars. That program was designed to counter exactly this problem - startups developing on other platforms because they were cheaper e.g. free. Andrew Rowley -- and...@blackhillsoftware.com +61 413 302 386 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FW: mainframe selling points -- Start up Costs
On 1/02/2013 8:40, Thomas David Rivers wrote: Note, your issues aren't limited to mainframe software development... consider opening a restuarant... you have to acquire the kitchen equiptment, lease/purchase the space, do significant advertising, etc... before you sell the first plate of food. Every start-up enterprise requires a non-trivial initial investment. Certainly, other businesses have greater startup costs. However, it is not really relevant when comparing software costs across different platforms. In the last 5-10 years the area of software startups has undergone a revolution (not all good - the economics of smartphone apps for a dollar don't make sense) and on most platforms the cost to develop an idea is very low. You could easily get started for an outlay of less than $1000. This guy developed and launched a product with an initial budget of $60, mainly to see if it could be done: http://www.kalzumeus.com/ Andrew Rowley -- and...@blackhillsoftware.com +61 413 302 386 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
