Re: z/osmf missing directory

[Pommier, Rex]

Never mind - again.  The SMP/E job to put the new workflow choked on installing 
the PTF but apparently got far enough to create the directory.  

This install is going to cause me to want to retire!

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 3:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] z/osmf missing directory

Hi again,

Got past my last problem and now while trying to apply UJ93002 to get the 3.1 
workflow loaded into the filesystem, the apply failed because 
/usr/lpp/bcp/upgrade doesn't exist.  While I can manually go into the FS and 
create the directory, I'm concerned that I missed some step that should have 
created it and others.  The only hits I've found in doing searches online are 
telling me that installing a particular PTF will put the new workflow in this 
location.  

So my questions are 1) is it safe for me to just create this directory, and if 
not, where is the step(s) that I missed that would create it for me?

TIA (again)

Rex

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Re: z/osmf

[Ward, Mike S]

Try here. 
https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/3.1.0?topic=consider-zos-upgrade-workflows


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Chalk, Shelia
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2024 7:09 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXT] z/osmf

Please Note: This email is from an [EXTERNAL] sender. Do not click on links or 
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Hello,
I am wanting to download the z/osmf workflow for z/os 3.1. Can someone send me 
the link where I can find this?

Thanks

Shelia Chalk
Mainframe System Programmer
sch...@ssfcu.org


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Re: Z/OSMF email

[Chalk, Shelia]

Nevermind   found it


Shelia Chalk
Mainframe System Programmer
sch...@ssfcu.org

From: Chalk, Shelia
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2024 3:08 PM
To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
Subject: Z/OSMF email

Hello,
I am looking to setup the z/osmf outgoing email configuration. It has smtp 
userid and smtp password. On the screen it says it is required, do I have to 
put both in there or is there a way I can skip the userid and password?

Thanks

Shelia Chalk
Mainframe System Programmer
sch...@ssfcu.org


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Re: z/osmf error

[Ramsey Hallman]

Hi, Sheila.

I cannot help specifically, however, if you do not have the complete error
message I am including it below. The message says the reason for the
failure is noted in the error. You might consider posting the ENTIRE error
message to the group.

IZUR400E The request could not be completed. z/OSMF could not connect to

the DDS or Linux data gatherer at URL address. Reason: reason.



Explanation

The request failed because z/OSMF could not connect to the Resource

Measurement Facility (RMF) Distributed Data Server (DDS) or to the Linux
data
gatherer located at the specified URL. The reason for the error is
provided.


In the message text:



 address

 Host name or IP address and port for the DDS or Linux data
gatherer.


 reason

 Description of the cause of the error.



System programmer response

Ensure that the z/OSMF server is running. Verify that the resource is

available and that the DDS or Linux data gatherer is active.

Examine the z/OSMF logs for more details about the error. If the problem

persists, contact the IBM Support Center.



User response

Verify that the host name or IP address and port are specified correctly,
and
ensure that there are no trailing spaces. If the problem persists, contact

your z/OSMF administrator or system programmer.


Ramsey

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 1:58 PM Chalk, Shelia  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am new to z/osmf.  I am getting this error
> IZUR400E   The request could not be completed. z/OSMF could not connect to
> the DDS or Linux data gatherer at UR
> Can someone point me in the right direction?
>
> Thanks
>
> Shelia Chalk
> Mainframe System Programmer
> sch...@ssfcu.org
>
>
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Re: z/OSMF and Zowe

[Doug Henry]

On Mon, 25 Sep 2023 12:47:21 -0700, Ed Jaffe  
wrote:

>On 9/19/2023 6:39 AM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
>> Zowe, last I saw, ships an SMP/E install as well as a “convenience” build 
>> that is basically a pax file.  Given that Zowe basically updates on a 
>> frequent basis the update is basically replacing the core software so pax is 
>> far easier.
>
>In my experience just the opposite is true.
>
>The 'pax' is a manual download/install effort each time.
>
>By contrast, once a product has been installed with SMP/E, it
>immediately qualifies for automatic unattended RECEIVE ORDER (including
>HOLDDATA). We do this daily.

 Also Zowe is orderable on IBM SHOPZ as 5698-ZWG IBM Z Dist for Zowe 2.0 if you 
also want IBM support.

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Re: z/OSMF and Zowe

[Ed Jaffe]

On 9/19/2023 6:39 AM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:

Zowe, last I saw, ships an SMP/E install as well as a “convenience” build that 
is basically a pax file.  Given that Zowe basically updates on a frequent basis 
the update is basically replacing the core software so pax is far easier.


In my experience just the opposite is true.

The 'pax' is a manual download/install effort each time.

By contrast, once a product has been installed with SMP/E, it 
immediately qualifies for automatic unattended RECEIVE ORDER (including 
HOLDDATA). We do this daily.


We perform automatic ACCEPT/APPLY every weekend of Zowe (and 62 other 
SMP/E installed products). We could never pull off such a feat if we had 
to use the 'pax' method for Zowe or any of the others.



--
Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/



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Re: z/OSMF and Zowe

[Matt Hogstrom]

I think that it comes down to provenance (is where it came from trusted) as 
well as a need for support when something goes wrong.  The community support is 
best effort with no warranties.  Other vendors like IBM, Rocket and Broadcom 
are now pre-requing the Zowe and as such they provide support and the customer 
downloads the package from the vendor.  At least for Broadcom, it’s the same 
package as distributed by the Zowe community but most large Z shops won’t even 
let you access the site.

I was on the customer side of the fence for many years and no one wants to say 
that the thing I’m using came from OpenSource if there is an issue.  We want 
someone to call at 0-dark-thirty when things go wrong.  I’m not sure that this 
requirement has changed.  I think that’s the same issue with the Rocket and 
other ports of common Linux tools although I think those are less impactful to 
production for the most part.  In our world, outages come with post-mortems. 

Matt Hogstrom

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom



> On Sep 20, 2023, at 3:12 AM, Robin Atwood  wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Brian and Matt. Perhaps the fact that you can get Zowe directly from 
> IBM will help mitigate the prejudice against open source!


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Re: z/OSMF and Zowe

[Robin Atwood]

Thanks, Brian and Matt. Perhaps the fact that you can get Zowe directly from 
IBM will help mitigate the prejudice against open source!

Robin

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Brian Westerman
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2023 12:27 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF and Zowe

I believe you can still order CBIPO, but z/OSMF does (unfortunately) seem to be 
the way IBM wants everyone to go.  I personally disagree with z/OSMF for many 
reasons (most of them due to overhead and capability restrictions), but mine 
seems to be a waste of breath.  :)

Any way ZOWE is open source, and many shops won't allow that.  It's actually a 
pretty good idea, but still some shops see open source as inherently evil. 

Brian

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Re: z/OSMF and Zowe

[Brian Westerman]

I believe you can still order CBIPO, but z/OSMF does (unfortunately) seem to be 
the way IBM wants everyone to go.  I personally disagree with z/OSMF for many 
reasons (most of them due to overhead and capability restrictions), but mine 
seems to be a waste of breath.  :)

Any way ZOWE is open source, and many shops won't allow that.  It's actually a 
pretty good idea, but still some shops see open source as inherently evil. 

Brian

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Re: z/OSMF and Zowe

[Matt Hogstrom]

If you want to ship a product that uses Zowe vendors can prereq Zowe.  I’d 
contact Bruce Armstrong at IBM to talk about that.  He is involved in the Zowe 
community and can give some guidance.  You can ask questions to the Zowe 
Community here on their Slack 
https://openmainframeproject.slack.com/archives/CBVJGPWHX

Zowe, last I saw, ships an SMP/E install as well as a “convenience” build that 
is basically a pax file.  Given that Zowe basically updates on a frequent basis 
the update is basically replacing the core software so pax is far easier.  

Matt Hogstrom

From Lord of the Rings, when Frodo decides to leave the Fellowship and go to 
Mordor alone . . . 
Frodo:  “I wish the ring had never come to me.  I wish none of this had 
happened.”  
Gandalf:  “So do all who live to see such things.  But it is not for them to 
decide.  All you have to do is decide what to do with this time that is given 
to you.”

> On Sep 19, 2023, at 5:42 AM, Robin Atwood  wrote:
> 
> 
> OTOH, Zowe is an open-source project that the average shop will not be using? 
> So if you want to ship a product that uses it, the customer will have to 
> install it?
> 
> 
> TIA
> 
> Robin
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Allan Staller]

Classification: Confidential

FWIW, I do not use *any* cataloged dataset for SMP/E Targets/DLIBDS. During 
installation, I took the time to update all of the DDDEFS with VOLSER 
information.

M USD $0.02 worth.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Longfellow
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2023 3:43 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

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Thanks Kurt.
It is comforting to know that I can still punch my way out of a paper bag.

I took the 'clear the catalog' approach for the Dlibs.It was not totally 
clear sailing.   Still haunted by data set decisions and location choices made 
(literally) decades ago.

I am now at the Post Deploy options to build and integrate my other products 
and local mods into an IPLable system.

Onwards and upwards.

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Tom Longfellow]

Thanks Kurt.
It is comforting to know that I can still punch my way out of a paper bag.

I took the 'clear the catalog' approach for the Dlibs.It was not totally 
clear sailing.   Still haunted by data set decisions and location choices made 
(literally) decades ago.

I am now at the Post Deploy options to build and integrate my other products 
and local mods into an IPLable system.

Onwards and upwards.

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Kurt Quackenbush]

> I have several ideas that I have to consider.
> -- Changing the names of my dlibs to have unique names.  This should allow 
> co-existence in my current MCAT.  (Possibly just adding a HLQ like the old 
> ServerPac 
> days).  Downside is the eventual recataloging after z/OS V2R5 goes live.
> -- Fully implement indirect cataloging for the Dlib volumes.  (This could end 
> up causing system PARMLIB changes and IPLs just to get an install done)
> -- Uncataloging all of my current Dlibs from my production environment (The 
> guy doing a maintenance cycle now will not be happy)
>
> Any suggestions?

I can't think of anything else besides the options you mention.  Sorry.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Tom Longfellow]

Thanks Kurt.Using Indirect Cataloging did the job for my Target SYSRES 
datasets.   z/OSMF no longer complains.

However, this is the first creation of my Dlibs from the Portable Software 
Instance.   They are also intended to have the same names that have been around 
for (almost) ever.
Presently, no indirect cataloging  has been implemented  for the Dlib Volumes.  
So, changing the targe Volume to use indirect cannot be done.

I have several ideas that I have to consider.
-- Changing the names of my dlibs to have unique names.  This should allow 
co-existence in my current MCAT.  (Possibly just adding a HLQ like the old 
ServerPac days).  Downside is the eventual recataloging after z/OS V2R5 goes 
live.
-- Fully implement indirect cataloging for the Dlib volumes.  (This could end 
up causing system PARMLIB changes and IPLs just to get an install done)
-- Uncataloging all of my current Dlibs from my production environment (The guy 
doing a maintenance cycle now will not be happy)

Any suggestions?
Any Other directions?

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Kurt Quackenbush]

Tom, to use your existing master catalog and use existing data set names, have 
to tell z/OSMF you want indirectly catalog the new target data sets.  In the 
Deployment Configuration wizard, on the Volumes page, select your SYSRES volume 
and click the Modify action.  On the Modify Volume page select the option to 
indirectly catalog the data sets on that volume and specify the volume symbol 
you want to use.  For example, "**" or "" or similar.

Having done this, when you attempt to generate the JCL, this time z/OSMF will 
allow your new target data sets to have the same name as your existing data 
sets in your existing master catalog, because z/OSMF knows the existing catalog 
entry containing the volume symbol can be used for both your existing system 
and for your new target system.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Longfellow
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 5:10 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

Yet another answer to my own post

I stripped out everything to do with the Software instances and deployments 
related to my Zos25 install.

I defined an instance  for my new deployment This instance was modeled on my 
ZOS V2R4 install. The source for the instance is the downloaded ShopZ ZFS.
The Dataset names had to be trimmed due to assumptions and defaults prefixed to 
the Target dataset names.   The names were modified to match what they will 
have to be when I continue to use the indirect cataloging in my active system.
Volumes and Storage Classes were assigned to local standard locations for DASD 
placement.

Catalog Selection was NOT a chance to select a Catalog for these new to be 
created datasets.Job generations then fail with IZU9702E messages saying 
that the dataset in question is ALREADY in that Master Catalog that I am 
forcing you to use.

I am assuming that this is because I am NOT creating a new master of any kind 
(temporary or other).  This is because I actually read my choices for 
configuring the objectives of the install.  and the 'no new catalog' option 
where you IPL using your old indirect catalog entries from your existing master 
catalog described exactly what I think I want to do.   

Do I want to change the objectives to create a new catalog where all the 
building would be done?   If so, what the heck is the 'Existing' catalog 
objective for??

Time to step back and wait for a flash of brilliance to come to me.   
Mandatory cooling off period starts...  NOW

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Marna WALLE]

Hi Tom,
Glad to see that you are getting back on track. For your catalog question, it 
sounds like you want to use your existing mcat for your new z/OS V2.5 system.  
That's fine.  If you use your existing mcat, you've got to be using indirect 
cataloging. That is reasonable, as you'd want to use that mcat for both an old 
instance and new instance, which are on different volumes.  You can create new 
ucat if you like, into your existing mcat, if you desired. 

For keeping your existing mcat (and it is using indirect entries) you are 
correct in saying that is on the Objectives section, and you should select 
Existing master catalog:
---cut and paste from the screen---
Catalogs:
Are you deploying z/OS? YES
 
Indicate which catalogs to use for the new target z/OS data sets. For 
additional help on making the proper selection Learn more...

__New target system master catalog: Target system data sets will be cataloged 
in a new master catalog or new user catalogs connected to the new master 
catalog.
 
X  Existing master catalog: Target system data sets will be cataloged in the 
existing master catalog, existing user catalogs, or new user catalogs connected 
to the existing master catalog.
 

If you click on "Help" on that screen, and then "Catalogs" within the help, 
there are some good pictures which show what will happen with your existing 
mcat. 

What is the "Existing master catalog" option there for?  To know whether z/OSMF 
Software Management needs to create a new mcat for you, or to verify that the 
existing mcat you are using can correctly represent the system you are building 
with the matching entries (like SYS1.LINKLIB).  

You're getting there!  Often the first time through the interface, if you 
haven't practiced with a smaller product, can be harder.  z/OS is big, and can 
be a lot to get through.  But I'm very happy to see that you are modelling 
after z/OS V2.4 which will definitely help. 

-Marna WALLE
z/OS System Install and Upgrade
IBM Poughkeepsie

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Tom Longfellow]

Yet another answer to my own post

I stripped out everything to do with the Software instances and deployments 
related to my Zos25 install.

I defined an instance  for my new deployment
This instance was modeled on my ZOS V2R4 install. The source for the instance 
is the downloaded ShopZ ZFS.
The Dataset names had to be trimmed due to assumptions and defaults prefixed to 
the Target dataset names.   The names were modified to match what they will 
have to be when I continue to use the indirect cataloging in my active system.
Volumes and Storage Classes were assigned to local standard locations for DASD 
placement.

Catalog Selection was NOT a chance to select a Catalog for these new to be 
created datasets.Job generations then fail with IZU9702E messages saying 
that the dataset in question is ALREADY in that Master Catalog that I am 
forcing you to use.

I am assuming that this is because I am NOT creating a new master of any kind 
(temporary or other).  This is because I actually read my choices for 
configuring the objectives of the install.  and the 'no new catalog' option 
where you IPL using your old indirect catalog entries from your existing master 
catalog described exactly what I think I want to do.   

Do I want to change the objectives to create a new catalog where all the 
building would be done?   If so, what the heck is the 'Existing' catalog 
objective for??

Time to step back and wait for a flash of brilliance to come to me.   
Mandatory cooling off period starts...  NOW

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Tom Longfellow]

As always Marna - THANK YOU very much.  You are always a treasure trove of 
information.

I am ready to hand the reigns of the temporary HLQ manipulations back to 
z/OSMF, but am having some difficulties during Job Generation.
When I removed my 'unneeded' personal HLQ --- I got 800+ errors that 'you 
cannot define something that it already in the catalog'

I have tried 'juggling' catalog definitions without success.   
The Deployment is configured to use the 'Existing' catalogs and not create a 
new master because I wish to IPL from my standard master cat in use today.
Software Management detects that the final names already exist in the current 
master cat and stops.

Unfortunately - An aggressive flush of datasets has deleted datasets that 
belonged to the base Software Instance.   This has left me unable to define a 
workable Deployment at all.  Too many 'missing' datasets that are assumed to be 
there from the Software Management unzips from the Portable Software Instance 
downloaded  from my Software order.
I need to go back to Square Zero and re-Install my downloaded Portable Software 
Instance.

I am looking for a Rip and Replace set of steps that will take me back to 
creating my Software environment from my downloaded ShopZ order.
How do you totally clean the installation and its deployments back to that 
level?My latest hurdle is the DDDEFs in my previously manipulated GLOBAL 
and TARGET zones point to DSNs that no longer exist and cannot be recovered.
I have tried configuring to 'Use a New Master'  without success..   I have yet 
to see anywhere for me to influence or select the old SSA values.

It is always difficult to recover from failed, canned procedures that have 
failed spectacularly.

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Marna WALLE]

Tom,
The job to remove the temporary catalog alias (aka SSA) and rename the data 
sets to prepare for an IPL is done during the z/OSMF Deployment  (not in the 
Post Deploy Workflow), and is found in the Software Management provided job, 
IZUD05RN - that's the name that my generated job was, and it was job #5 out of 
6 jobs that were provided for my configuration.  

It looks like this in Software Management.  Sorry for the horrible formatting, 
but you can see it with the "5" below:

-
4   IZUD04UZUnzip Data Sets: Extract the target software instance 
data sets from the portable software instance archive files, into the location 
defined by the deployment configuration, using temporary and unique data set 
names.AQFT
Complete 
MWALLEZOJOB20193CC 0256 U
5   IZUD05RNRename Data Sets: Rename the target software instance 
data sets from their temporary and unique names to their true names defined by 
the deployment configuration, and update catalog entries for the data sets as 
needed.  AQFT
Complete
MWALLEZOJOB26729CC 0008 U
6   IZUD06UCUpdate CSI Data Sets: Update the entries within the 
SMP/E CSI data sets to reflect the target software instance zone names, data 
set names and locations, and UNIX directory prefixes.  AQFT
Complete
MWALLEZOJOB28159CC  U


In that 5th job, I can see that the rename is happening like this.  Note 
"ZS25VBNM" is my temporary catalog alias (SSA):

 LISTCAT -
ENTRY(ZS25VBMW.SYS1.LINKLIB) -
CATALOG(MWALLE.VB25.MCAT)
  IF LASTCC = 0 THEN DO
 ALTER -
   ZS25VBMW.SYS1.LINKLIB -
   NEWNAME(SYS1.LINKLIB) -
   CATALOG(MWALLE.VB25.MCAT)
  END


What might be happening, is that during the configuration of your deployment, 
you entered in the names of the final data sets WITH a temporary high level 
qualifier yourself. If that is so, then you have indicated that that 
"temporary" HLQ is the final name you wanted.  This is something that we've 
seen experienced CustomPac people do, as they assume they need to handle the 
temporary HLQ themselves which is not the case in z/OSMF.  You can see that 
z/OSMF will be adding(and removing) the temporary HLQ itself, if you look at 
the Configuration sample for the data set, so that you will know you don't have 
to handle the temporary HLQ yourself.

Here's the spot in Configure Deployment of Software Management, in Modify where 
you can see that (see NEWMCAT below as the sample temporary HLQ), and that your 
name should not attempt to add a temporary HLQ:

Enter the data set name or qualifiers to use for the selected data sets.
Common data set qualifiers: Example data set name:
From:   SYS1.LINKLIBSYS1.LINKLIB
To: 
SYS1.LINKLIB
SYS1.LINKLIB

NEWMCAT.SYS1.LINKLIB( Target data set name with temporary catalog alias ) 
z/OSMF automatically adds the temporary catalog alias to reference the target 
data set from the driving system catalog. "NEWMCAT" is the default temporary 
catalog alias and can be updated in the Catalogs step of the Deployment 
Configuration.
-

If indeed, you did add your "own temporary" final name to the data sets, you 
will need to go back and remove it.  You can either go back into the same 
deployment and do that to backtrack, or if that Deployment is Complete you can 
start a new Deployment. 

For a Completed Deployment, you can copy that configuration to do another 
Deployment which is nice as the pre-defined configuration is reused.  It is 
under Actions -> Copy.  It will be grayed out if if the Deployment is not 
Complete.   I duplicate my Deployments often to save time, and only change 
small things, like the target system, or volumes.  

-Marna WALLE
z/OS System Install and Upgrade
IBM Poughkeepsie

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Tom Longfellow]

And the battle continues.   Ignorance is taking the hits.

I am obviously ignorant to the design of the approved 'how to' way to do this.

I tried removing the CB. prefix on my dataset names.   800+ error messages 
later, I found that the Lion cannot digest that.  It regurgitates every name 
that already exists in my current master catalog.   Totally understandable and 
I sympathized.
I returned the CB prefix and moved on. 
The Catalog step  had identified CB as a 'New' prefix that requires a 'New' 
master catalog to be created. I had done the 'use existing master' option 
during setup, but I guess I am ignorant to what that truly means.

Nothing I try can tell the Lion to use my current existing Master catalog to 
hold the 'temporary'  CB catalog entries.

Do I need a new USER cat for the CB entries???  (WILDLY guessing here).   
Would this be someplace for the Lion to play with its food while the physical 
datasets are created on the volumes?

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Tom Longfellow]

I always feel foolish when I reply to my own posts, but here goes.

For those of you playing the home game and watching the gladiatorial combat 
between "Software Management" and the "Grizzled Veteran"  here is todays battle.

I think I see where I have not toed the line with the 'new' method of 
Installing things. I went "old school" and modified my dataset names to 
prepend a HLQ of CB (I still do not know where that came from - me or z/OSMF).  
 What I did not know is that my worthy opponent (which I will now call the 
Lion) had secret strategies that it was going to deploy.   The Lion took my 
well crafted and meaningful dataset names and suffixed them with '.#'.

The old ServerPac dialogs generated jobs would remove the HLQ on the physical 
volume and make the names match what was indirectly cataloged in the system 
being upgraded.   For example  HLQ.SYS1.LINKLIB cataloged on the newly created 
SYSRES would be 'zapped' to the name SYS1.LINKLIB which has been indirectly 
cataloged to ** for many many years and will NOT be changed.   A HLQ.xxx 
catalog entry would be created so that JCL could be used to select which one 
you were trying to modify. My review of these new jobs is not showing me 
where any catalog ALIAS entries are being created (but I could have missed 
them).
This left us with the option of IPLing the old release,  then new release for 
testing, then back to old release to get on with our work.


To adopt this new suffixing approach, I now have to lose a week of work in 
order to rename the data sets in such a way that the suffixing process 'might' 
work.
Then back to my local usermods again for re-APPLY.

This sort of thing has been happening to me for years.  I make a choice for 
local needs  (like software upgrade vs software replacement in the old 
ServerPacs)  only to find out that two days later the generated jobs will not 
do what I wanted to do or what I thought they would do.   Square One!!!
Like an Abbot and Costello routing,   THIRD BASE!!!.   All convoluted 
difficulties mean Square One.   I just have not taking to drinking the IBM 
Cool-Aid and will stray into the world of independent thought.

What I would love to do is 'Copy' my current Deployment as a baseline from 
which to start over.I cannot find a 'Copy Deployment' under z/OSMF --- Only 
'Add'.Welcome to the next battle trying to tame this Lion.

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Gadi Ben-Avi]

It is created as part of the workflow jobs. 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Longfellow
Sent: יום ה 07 ספטמבר 2023 12:57
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

I am very familiar with that Job --- I have run it under ServerPac for a dozen 
times over the past 20-30 years.

What I cannot find now is how to get z/OSMF to generate that JOB for the 
current software order.
I have not been able to find it in the z/OSMF GUI interface.

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Tom Longfellow]

I am very familiar with that Job --- I have run it under ServerPac for a dozen 
times over the past 20-30 years.

What I cannot find now is how to get z/OSMF to generate that JOB for the 
current software order.
I have not been able to find it in the z/OSMF GUI interface.

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

[Gadi Ben-Avi]

Hi,
We just went through the same thing.
There is a job that renames the libraries and then creates an alias or path for 
each one.
Once that is run, the catalogs you created for the new system should have the 
original dataset names (SYS1.NUCLUES, SYS1.LPALIB etc.) and you should be able 
to IPL from that. 
The aliases remain on the driving system, so you can access the datasets from 
there if you want to make changes if the IPL fails for some reason. 

Gadi


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Tom 
Longfellow <03e29b607131-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 19:21
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

I have had a few minor battles with z/OSMF over the years, so my view may be a 
bit biased.

My new z/OS 2.5 install and upgrade is in progress.   I have been going through 
all of the apps and workflows.  All of my local usermods from V2R4 and before 
are applied.
I am a ServerPac veteran and am now pretty pleased with myself on my progress 
so far.
I *thought*  I was approaching the point of some initial IPLs and then BAM, all 
I see is a brick wall.

Back in the old days, there were ServerPac jobs to remove the HLQ used during 
the creation of my new sysres.
I have been through the 'Software Management' and 'Software Upgrade' and all 
the Workflows (that I am now REQUIRED to use)  without any success in finding 
the task/job that would Change HLQ.SYS1.LINKLIB to the good old fashioned 
SYS1.LINKLIB.

Anybody have the secret Point-Click-Edit-Drag-Drop-Whatever  sequence that can 
close out my Deployment to a testable state?

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Re: z/OSMF

[Steely.Mark]

Thanks - -  The IZUPRMxx reference information - fixed one of the issue's 
This fixed the 2nd issue - that's was what I needed the 
UNIX directory name - missed it the first time around. Still trying to get 
familiar with it. 

Thanks for all the assistance. 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Kurt Quackenbush
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2023 1:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF



CAUTION! EXTERNAL SENDER! STOP, ASSESS, AND VERIFY Do you know this person? 
Were you expecting this email? If not, report it using the Report Phishing 
Button!

> ...  I am trying to download a software instance and z/OSMF has generated the 
> JCL.
> The JCL generated has some values that are not correct - some path's 
> that were generated either have my ID inserted with the ID being 
> uppercase - our path names are lowercase. Also one path it generated 
> had a different ID then mine. I must have missed a step somewhere - where do 
> I update the values that I would like the system to use ?

You didn't say specifically which values in the JCL are the issue, but from the 
Portable Software Instances page clicking the Add... -> From Download Server 
action opens a short wizard to generate the download JCL.  On step 1 of the 
wizard, at the bottom of the page, you enter the UNIX directory into which you 
want the files to be downloaded.  This value is used on the SMPNTS DD statement 
in the generated job.  z/OSMF derives an initial value for this field from the 
directory you used last time and the name for the Portable Software Instance 
you specify at the top of the page.  What is the value on that page?  Does it 
contain your desired directory, with the correct case?  Is it the SMPNTS DD 
statement you're having trouble with?

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

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Re: z/OSMF

[Kurt Quackenbush]

> ...  I am trying to download a software instance and z/OSMF has generated the 
> JCL.
> The JCL generated has some values that are not correct - some path's that 
> were generated either 
> have my ID inserted with the ID being uppercase - our path names are 
> lowercase. Also one path it 
> generated had a different ID then mine. I must have missed a step somewhere - 
> where do I update 
> the values that I would like the system to use ?

You didn't say specifically which values in the JCL are the issue, but from the 
Portable Software Instances page clicking the Add... -> From Download Server 
action opens a short wizard to generate the download JCL.  On step 1 of the 
wizard, at the bottom of the page, you enter the UNIX directory into which you 
want the files to be downloaded.  This value is used on the SMPNTS DD statement 
in the generated job.  z/OSMF derives an initial value for this field from the 
directory you used last time and the name for the Portable Software Instance 
you specify at the top of the page.  What is the value on that page?  Does it 
contain your desired directory, with the correct case?  Is it the SMPNTS DD 
statement you're having trouble with?

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

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Re: z/OSMF

[Sri h Kolusu]

≫ some path's that were generated either have my ID inserted with the ID being 
uppercase - our path names are lowercase.

Did you check this?

Enter values in uppercase, lowercase, or mixed case. The system converts input 
to uppercase, unless the values are enclosed in single quotation marks, which 
are processed without altering the case.

https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=system-izuprmxx-reference-information

Thanks,
 Kolusu



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Re: z/OSMF

[Wayne Bickerdike]

The slash was an or symbol. Codeset anybody?

On Wed, Jul 12, 2023 at 8:35 AM Phil Smith III  wrote:

> Wayne Bickerdike wrote:
> *Was it Sterling Software/Platinum?*
>
> Heh. Different metals, different companies-but both wound up as part of CA
> eventually.
>
>
>
>
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-- 
Wayne V. Bickerdike

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Re: z/OSMF

[Phil Smith III]

Wayne Bickerdike wrote:
*Was it Sterling Software/Platinum?*

Heh. Different metals, different companies-but both wound up as part of CA 
eventually.




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Re: z/OSMF

[Mike Shaw]

Platinum is right. We used to carry Platinum Software DB2 utility msgs in
the MVS/QuickRef DB.

Mike Shaw
Chicago-Soft, Ltd.

On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 4:29 PM Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:

> *Can anyone remember the major DB2 player was?*
>
>
> *On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 8:26 AM Edward Gould
> <04bcc43af339-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu
> <04bcc43af339-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>> wrote:*
>
> *Was it Sterling Software/Platinum?*
>
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Re: z/OSMF

[Wayne Bickerdike]

*Can anyone remember the major DB2 player was?*


*On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 8:26 AM Edward Gould
<04bcc43af339-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu
<04bcc43af339-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>> wrote:*

*Was it Sterling Software/Platinum?*

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Re: OT: RE: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 18:25, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Yes, but is every Scots dialect intelligible to every native Scots 
> speaker, 

I doubt it; the dialects spoken by people in Shetland and Orkney
(the latter right now considering a return to Norwegian rule!)
are substantially different from that spoken in lowland Scotland.

See: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-66090102

Also, very many people who would consider themselves Scots,
but not speakers of Scots, speak mainly English with greater or
lesser amounts of Scots vocab intermixed.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: OT: RE: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

Yes, but is every Scots dialect intelligible to every native Scots speaker, or 
are there mutually unintelligible regional dialects. Think Cockney versus 
Oxford or Boston, MA versus Augusta, GA.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll [jn.ls.mfrm...@letterboxes.org]
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 11:34 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OT: RE: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 14:27, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Aggie derives from "agricultural school"; I assure you that the English
> of, e.g.,Australia, New Zealand, UK, is just as opaque to us.
>
> Does Scotland have English terms that are understood in some regions
> but not all?

Well, we have terms in Scots (which isn't English) which are commonly used
in sentences with English terms around them.

Two short useful articles:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1r9qPuoqLqtf3IYZ0Zxlppc7IPF2YAqokhEHj3SNsux6RRnxwuL94yaqUqP54peAhFhhR5zCFrxD5RXFKezvCn7pbltnIdxBzW55cweuNZ8Tb22XqKe7LjKGAHoiRr1tyyzggmtmsSKLPrpOe0R9hO8J_EGta5XQ0KInY4Yc6K4BzBJm_gap0_897esGAEdBMwUIPzN65BDOUnjyQQ3ER5qmf6TCFzQg3AmHrHr8RH6TrZPww3tY6enTkvluBqkChFbSbgOzDnw9EPCrLvC3zBOpHUqPbBGbRM1dZmkwYJBYu57JakQSAbaAUB08xrBIU2k0HS2fmxlTH96kH84FhbRbtVfay0nn5r5hWhOH_5mvNzeOsIgPNU_vSuY8iu01vT6yzESkVZUqY9fxacI8oFwPmLL6W9I26q1Cwh_mCRlU/https%3A%2F%2Fdsl.ac.uk%2Fabout-scots%2Fwhat-is-scots%2F
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1sVgy4nXnfJIjFkEVlQ9XUkXsin-uQ6siFqpw6KIiowebvlp342haxE3ya83g4YjbPMM9Q29vt6Ddrp1JVtW0ssagt_zZS8h_WUlw2CABSHYu0mGqHHYqBse_ZIHOmrCsAIGTFpm4UfSbTDnWQvnOUEKjCXzkrDIt2Kz6G50TovDDo25qGJD2Mf9XtJ60-Ktu9rYwd_eUOZtWpEhtYk7HWzgKxiL3n2LBgTx8U0Imlr_Fl9cLPs-ELbtQK4YL4Pdx7-1ua3zOjKQPy-FiMgWo3QTKLXBWjCQEJ7QZU1If_mfbPtErZU0T6j2bf76g4JVXVkh95L2T86kwkVNrdAH6BRcAt0UhOIk_ywfsyGqXoot2WE6fp7dwAT4fDJplMJ9W_4Y3eGRiaTAEZtht2hiROthjpi1Sbg2O2z4F4nqj484/https%3A%2F%2Fdsl.ac.uk%2Fabout-scots%2Fa-language-or-a-dialect%2F

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

[allan winston]

For the classic game, CBT file 269 has a version of the source program that
is 3191 lines long and includes the associated data files.  There is a
reference to there being the corresponding load module in CBT file 135 with
the name "PROGRAM".

Somewhere along the way, I seem to have downloaded a newer version of the
source that is 4691 lines long.  The comments state that it is version 4.
However, I failed to download the associated data files and no longer have
access to that system.

 Allan

On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:07 AM Mike Schwab  wrote:

> https://www.cbttape.org/cbtdowns.htm
> 5 results for Game, including 38 Klingon, 269 Adventure, and 2 groups?
>
> On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 9:21 AM David Spiegel
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Robert,
> > Is the source code available?
> > If yes, how does one get it?
> >
> > Thanks and regards,
> > David
> >
> > On 2023-07-05 09:17, Crawford Robert C (Contractor) wrote:
> > > In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was
> largely table driven so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To retrieve
> the "treasure," an Aggie Joke book, you had to find a bar of soap and throw
> it into the room at which point the Aggies would run out of the room
> enabling you to get the book.
> > >
> > > For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will
> be lost on 49/50ths of the US.
> > >
> > > Robert Crawford
> > > Abstract Evolutions LLC
> > > (210) 913-3822
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Pew, Curtis G
> > > Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:43 PM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF
> > >
> > > On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> > >
> > > I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.
> > >
> > >
> > > You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave
> Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of
> “ADVENTURE” as the system supported.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure
> > >
> > > Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that
> knowledge is now lost in the mists of time for me.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Curtis Pew
> > > ITS Campus Solutions
> > > curtis@austin.utexas.edu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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>
> --
> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
>
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Re: OT: RE: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 14:27, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Aggie derives from "agricultural school"; I assure you that the English 
> of, e.g.,Australia, New Zealand, UK, is just as opaque to us.
>
> Does Scotland have English terms that are understood in some regions 
> but not all?

Well, we have terms in Scots (which isn't English) which are commonly used
in sentences with English terms around them.

Two short useful articles:
https://dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/what-is-scots/
https://dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/a-language-or-a-dialect/

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

[Mike Schwab]

https://www.cbttape.org/cbtdowns.htm
5 results for Game, including 38 Klingon, 269 Adventure, and 2 groups?

On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 9:21 AM David Spiegel
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Robert,
> Is the source code available?
> If yes, how does one get it?
>
> Thanks and regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-07-05 09:17, Crawford Robert C (Contractor) wrote:
> > In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was largely 
> > table driven so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To retrieve the 
> > "treasure," an Aggie Joke book, you had to find a bar of soap and throw it 
> > into the room at which point the Aggies would run out of the room enabling 
> > you to get the book.
> >
> > For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will be 
> > lost on 49/50ths of the US.
> >
> > Robert Crawford
> > Abstract Evolutions LLC
> > (210) 913-3822
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> > Pew, Curtis G
> > Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:43 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF
> >
> > On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> >
> > I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.
> >
> >
> > You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
> > Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
> > “ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure
> >
> > Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that 
> > knowledge is now lost in the mists of time for me.
> >
> > --
> > Curtis Pew
> > ITS Campus Solutions
> > curtis@austin.utexas.edu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email 
> > to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

[Crawford Robert C (Contractor)]

Sorry, that was a couple of jobs ago.  Wish I'd made a copy before I left.

We also had a text-based version of Star Trek that ran on CICS.  It was 
actually kind of boring so I eventually ended up blowing up the starbases.

Robert Crawford
Abstract Evolutions LLC
(210) 913-3822

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Spiegel
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 9:21 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

Hi Robert,
Is the source code available?
If yes, how does one get it?

Thanks and regards,
David

On 2023-07-05 09:17, Crawford Robert C (Contractor) wrote:
> In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was largely 
> table driven so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To retrieve the 
> "treasure," an Aggie Joke book, you had to find a bar of soap and throw it 
> into the room at which point the Aggies would run out of the room enabling 
> you to get the book.
>
> For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will be 
> lost on 49/50ths of the US.
>
> Robert Crawford
> Abstract Evolutions LLC
> (210) 913-3822
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Pew, Curtis G
> Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:43 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF
>
> On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.
>
>
> You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
> Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters 
> of “ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure
>
> Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
> is now lost in the mists of time for me.
>
> --
> Curtis Pew
> ITS Campus Solutions
> curtis@austin.utexas.edu
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
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Re: z/OSMF

[Tom Marchant]

On Wed, 5 Jul 2023 08:52:41 -0500, Matthew Stitt  
wrote:

>My son got me a keyboard very much like the classic IBM Type "M" for Christmas 
>a few years ago.  It is USB attached and has the name "UNICOMP" on it.

I bought two Unicomp buckling-spring keyboards. The first one, purchased in 
2013 eventually failed, so I bought another in 2020. The quality on the newer 
one was considerably less than the older one. The buckling-spring keyboard has 
some travel after the connection is made (and heard and felt). Some of the keys 
in the newer one didn't have that extra travel. They bottomed out as the 
contact was made. For a few keys, they would sometimes bottom out without 
making contact at all. I sent it back (under warranty) and they improved it 
just enough to be usable. Still, there was an inconsistent feel, with some keys 
bottoming out sooner than others. I found it disconcerting, but I kept using it 
for another year until it failed just like the first one, with several keys not 
registering even though the spring buckled and the contact was apparently made. 
Just out of warranty. I gave up on them.

As for monitors, I have a 43 inch 4k TV that I use as a monitor. When we worked 
in the office, I had 2 24 inch 1080P monitors. The 4k monitor gives the same 
horizontal resolution as 2 1080P monitors, but on a single screen. As a bonus, 
it gives the same vertical resolution as two more 1080P monitors above the 
other two. At 43 inches the size of the pixels is a bit smaller than with 24 
inch monitors, but it works well for me. My 3270 sessions are set to 99 x 142. 

-- 
Tom Marchant

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

[David Spiegel]

Hi Robert,
Is the source code available?
If yes, how does one get it?

Thanks and regards,
David

On 2023-07-05 09:17, Crawford Robert C (Contractor) wrote:

In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was largely table driven 
so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To retrieve the "treasure," an Aggie 
Joke book, you had to find a bar of soap and throw it into the room at which point the 
Aggies would run out of the room enabling you to get the book.

For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will be lost 
on 49/50ths of the US.

Robert Crawford
Abstract Evolutions LLC
(210) 913-3822

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:43 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.


You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--
Curtis Pew
ITS Campus Solutions
curtis@austin.utexas.edu




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Re: z/OSMF

[Matthew Stitt]

My son got me a keyboard very much like the classic IBM Type "M" for Christmas 
a few years ago.  It is USB attached and has the name "UNICOMP" on it.

Matthew

On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 17:50:24 -0400, Bob Bridges  wrote:

>I said I always buy a "real" keyboard (and monitor, and trackball) to plug 
>into a laptop.  I have thought hard about spending real money on them, too, or 
>at least on the keyboard considering how much time I spend on mine.  But so 
>far I've gone the other way.  About once a year I spill a Coke on my keyboard; 
>I just drop it in the bathtub, pick out a backup and get back to work.  No 
>lost time (or rather very little) and no tearing of hair.
>
>(I say I "drop it in the bathtub" because I have repeatedly read that 
>keyboards recover just fine when soaked and then allowed to dry out.  So far I 
>have never yet gotten a keyboard back this way, though; I always end up having 
>to throw it away.  Hints on a better way gratefully accepted.)
>
>Because of this, so far I buy El Cheapo brand.  I can't get El Cheapo for $10 
>any longer, but I think the last time I bought a few of them they were less 
>than $30.
>
>But, oh boy, do I miss tactile feedback!  IBM's software is famously hard to 
>use, but their hardware is reliably exceptional.  Heck, I liked the old 
>Selectrics, too.
>
>---
>Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
>/* There are trivial truths and great truths.  The opposite of a trivial truth 
>is plainly false.  The opposite of a great truth is also true.  -attributed by 
>Niels Bohr to his father */
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>Mike Schwab
>Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2023 16:54
>
>https://www.twindata.com/keyboards/twindatakeyboards.htm 5250 / 3270 keyboards 
>w PS/2 or USB connector.
>
>IBM 3270 APL converted to USB.
>https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/1394625
>
>On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 3:39 PM rpinion865 
><042a019916dd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Don't remember the manufacturer, I want the actual 3270 keyboard with the 
>> USB connect.
>>
>>  Original Message 
>> On Jul 4, 2023, 3:53 PM, billogden wrote:
>>
>> > Interesting discussion on screen sizes, keyboards, etc. Many of us 
>> > have various different opinions. My opinions have changed since the 
>> > early days when some of us (the "older" ones) used 2260s instead of 
>> > 3270s. I am using a 21" screen at the moment, with three "windows" 
>> > open on it. I would not want a larger screen and perhaps would 
>> > prefer a slightly smaller one. I prefer a size that does not require 
>> > me to constantly move my head to focus on different parts of the 
>> > screen. For 3270 emulation I prefer 133 character width (and most of 
>> > us probably agree on that) and at least 50 lines high (and this 
>> > could vary somewhat). I find 17" laptop screens OK, but not great. 
>> > More important for me (because I work mostly with text) is having 
>> > good character resolution. Perhaps because I as not as young as I 
>> > was a few years ago, I find long periods with crudely-formed 
>> > characters to be more exhausting. Given a choice, I would say this 
>> > is more important than the actual screen size. I am not fond of 
>> > laptop keyboards --- IMO they range from barely OK to poor. At the 
>> > moment I am using an old PC AT keyboard (with the "round" adapter 
>> > plug going to a converter to connect it to a USB port). It has the 
>> > numeric keypad (which I do not use) and has good "movement" of the 
>> > keys that provides a positive feedback for an old guy like me. (The 
>> > "real" 3270 terminals had great keyboards!) I can deal with the red 
>> > "mouse control" on IBM-designed laptop keyboards when needed, but I 
>> > prefer a "real" mouse (with the center "dial" function, if 
>> > possible). I use the same glasses for reading books and for dealing 
>> > with terminals -- I am lucky that they are fairly "weak" glasses. 
>> > The discussion about z/OSMF? One of these months I will need to 
>> > spend some time with it. These days I mostly use a relatively slow 
>> > machine for z/OS and the performance is not attractive for z/OSMF. 
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Re: Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

[Walt Farrell]

There are a number of hits that seem relevant when I do a search for "android 
version of dosbox", and once you have dosbox installed you should have access 
to a bunch of old DOS-based text games, including versions of Colossal Cave, I 
believe. I have not tried this personally, but I use dosbox on Windows and 
iPadOS for this purpose

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=android+version+of+dosbox=newext=v341-1=web

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OT: RE: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

Aggie derives from "agricultural school"; I assure you that the English of, 
e.g.,Australia, New Zealand, UK, is just as opaque to us.

Does Scotland have English terms that are understood in some regions but not 
all?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll [jn.ls.mfrm...@letterboxes.org]
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 9:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 14:17, Crawford Robert C (Contractor) wrote:
> In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was
> largely table driven so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To
> retrieve the "treasure," an Aggie Joke book, you had to find a bar of
> soap and throw it into the room at which point the Aggies would run out
> of the room enabling you to get the book.
>
> For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will
> be lost on 49/50ths of the US.

Unless you're implying that an Aggie, whatever that is (someone from
Texas A? - which even I, in Scotland, have heard of) is averse to
soap, it's unclear.

We're not all in or from the US.

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 14:17, Crawford Robert C (Contractor) wrote:
> In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was 
> largely table driven so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To 
> retrieve the "treasure," an Aggie Joke book, you had to find a bar of 
> soap and throw it into the room at which point the Aggies would run out 
> of the room enabling you to get the book.
>
> For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will 
> be lost on 49/50ths of the US. 

Unless you're implying that an Aggie, whatever that is (someone from 
Texas A? - which even I, in Scotland, have heard of) is averse to 
soap, it's unclear.

We're not all in or from the US.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

[Crawford Robert C (Contractor)]

YES!!

Robert Crawford
Abstract Evolutions LLC
(210) 913-3822

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Eric Erickson
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 10:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

PLUGH!

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

[Crawford Robert C (Contractor)]

In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was largely 
table driven so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To retrieve the 
"treasure," an Aggie Joke book, you had to find a bar of soap and throw it into 
the room at which point the Aggies would run out of the room enabling you to 
get the book.

For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will be lost 
on 49/50ths of the US. 

Robert Crawford
Abstract Evolutions LLC
(210) 913-3822

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:43 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.


You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--
Curtis Pew
ITS Campus Solutions
curtis@austin.utexas.edu




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Re: Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

[Bob Bridges]

I care enough to google it only if someone else cares enough to request that
I send them a copy.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Don't ask yourself what the world needs.  Ask yourself what makes you
come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have
come alive.  -Gil Bailie, quoted in "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Phil Smith III
Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2023 20:22

You can create a .apk from the app and send that. I have an old Euchre game
that's been discontinued and have moved it to several phones as I've
upgraded.

Google "find apk for an app" (without the quotes).

--- Bob Bridges wrote:
>I have a copy on my phone, but I haven't tried to run it recently.  If 
>it works, I wonder whether there's a way to send a copy, if anyone wants
it?

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Re: Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

[Phil Smith III]

Bob Bridges wrote:
>I have a copy on my phone, but I haven't tried to run it recently.  If it
>works, I wonder whether there's a way to send a copy, if anyone wants it?

You can create a .apk from the app and send that. I have an old Euchre game 
that's been discontinued and have moved it to several phones as I've upgraded.

Google "find apk for an app" (without the quotes).


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Re: z/OSMF

[Bob Bridges]

I said I always buy a "real" keyboard (and monitor, and trackball) to plug into 
a laptop.  I have thought hard about spending real money on them, too, or at 
least on the keyboard considering how much time I spend on mine.  But so far 
I've gone the other way.  About once a year I spill a Coke on my keyboard; I 
just drop it in the bathtub, pick out a backup and get back to work.  No lost 
time (or rather very little) and no tearing of hair.

(I say I "drop it in the bathtub" because I have repeatedly read that keyboards 
recover just fine when soaked and then allowed to dry out.  So far I have never 
yet gotten a keyboard back this way, though; I always end up having to throw it 
away.  Hints on a better way gratefully accepted.)

Because of this, so far I buy El Cheapo brand.  I can't get El Cheapo for $10 
any longer, but I think the last time I bought a few of them they were less 
than $30.

But, oh boy, do I miss tactile feedback!  IBM's software is famously hard to 
use, but their hardware is reliably exceptional.  Heck, I liked the old 
Selectrics, too.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* There are trivial truths and great truths.  The opposite of a trivial truth 
is plainly false.  The opposite of a great truth is also true.  -attributed by 
Niels Bohr to his father */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2023 16:54

https://www.twindata.com/keyboards/twindatakeyboards.htm 5250 / 3270 keyboards 
w PS/2 or USB connector.

IBM 3270 APL converted to USB.
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/1394625

On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 3:39 PM rpinion865 
<042a019916dd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Don't remember the manufacturer, I want the actual 3270 keyboard with the USB 
> connect.
>
>  Original Message 
> On Jul 4, 2023, 3:53 PM, billogden wrote:
>
> > Interesting discussion on screen sizes, keyboards, etc. Many of us 
> > have various different opinions. My opinions have changed since the 
> > early days when some of us (the "older" ones) used 2260s instead of 
> > 3270s. I am using a 21" screen at the moment, with three "windows" 
> > open on it. I would not want a larger screen and perhaps would 
> > prefer a slightly smaller one. I prefer a size that does not require 
> > me to constantly move my head to focus on different parts of the 
> > screen. For 3270 emulation I prefer 133 character width (and most of 
> > us probably agree on that) and at least 50 lines high (and this 
> > could vary somewhat). I find 17" laptop screens OK, but not great. 
> > More important for me (because I work mostly with text) is having 
> > good character resolution. Perhaps because I as not as young as I 
> > was a few years ago, I find long periods with crudely-formed 
> > characters to be more exhausting. Given a choice, I would say this 
> > is more important than the actual screen size. I am not fond of 
> > laptop keyboards --- IMO they range from barely OK to poor. At the 
> > moment I am using an old PC AT keyboard (with the "round" adapter 
> > plug going to a converter to connect it to a USB port). It has the 
> > numeric keypad (which I do not use) and has good "movement" of the 
> > keys that provides a positive feedback for an old guy like me. (The 
> > "real" 3270 terminals had great keyboards!) I can deal with the red 
> > "mouse control" on IBM-designed laptop keyboards when needed, but I 
> > prefer a "real" mouse (with the center "dial" function, if 
> > possible). I use the same glasses for reading books and for dealing 
> > with terminals -- I am lucky that they are fairly "weak" glasses. 
> > The discussion about z/OSMF? One of these months I will need to 
> > spend some time with it. These days I mostly use a relatively slow 
> > machine for z/OS and the performance is not attractive for z/OSMF. 

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Re: Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

[Bob Bridges]

I have a copy on my phone, but I haven't tried to run it recently.  If it
works, I wonder whether there's a way to send a copy, if anyone wants it?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* even though our political rhetoric is more conservative today, power
keeps accumulating in Washington as steadily as if a Socialist Party were
the dominant electoral force.  Conservatives who think they have "won"
because Bill Clinton now adopts anti-government poses are like sheep
congratulating themselves because the wolf has been forced to wear sheep's
clothing.  It might be reassuring, if only the old wolf weren't still eating
so well.  -Joseph Sobran, 1998 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Phil Smith III
Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2023 13:09

Alas, the Colossal Cave seems to not be compatible with current Android
versions. I take that to mean the developer has lost interest. Too bad;
seemed like a nice blast from the past time-waster!

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Re: z/OSMF

[Mike Schwab]

https://www.twindata.com/keyboards/twindatakeyboards.htm 5250 / 3270
keyboards w PS/2 or USB connector.

IBM 3270 APL converted to USB.
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/1394625

On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 3:39 PM rpinion865
<042a019916dd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Don't remember the manufacturer, I want the actual 3270 keyboard with the USB 
> connect.
>
> Sent from Proton Mail mobile
>
>  Original Message 
> On Jul 4, 2023, 3:53 PM, billogden wrote:
>
> > Interesting discussion on screen sizes, keyboards, etc. Many of us have 
> > various different opinions. My opinions have changed since the early days 
> > when some of us (the "older" ones) used 2260s instead of 3270s. I am using 
> > a 21" screen at the moment, with three "windows" open on it. I would not 
> > want a larger screen and perhaps would prefer a slightly smaller one. I 
> > prefer a size that does not require me to constantly move my head to focus 
> > on different parts of the screen. For 3270 emulation I prefer 133 character 
> > width (and most of us probably agree on that) and at least 50 lines high 
> > (and this could vary somewhat). I find 17" laptop screens OK, but not 
> > great. More important for me (because I work mostly with text) is having 
> > good character resolution. Perhaps because I as not as young as I was a few 
> > years ago, I find long periods with crudely-formed characters to be more 
> > exhausting. Given a choice, I would say this is more important than the 
> > actual screen size. I am not fond of laptop keyboards --- IMO they range 
> > from barely OK to poor. At the moment I am using an old PC AT keyboard 
> > (with the "round" adapter plug going to a converter to connect it to a USB 
> > port). It has the numeric keypad (which I do not use) and has good 
> > "movement" of the keys that provides a positive feedback for an old guy 
> > like me. (The "real" 3270 terminals had great keyboards!) I can deal with 
> > the red "mouse control" on IBM-designed laptop keyboards when needed, but I 
> > prefer a "real" mouse (with the center "dial" function, if possible). I use 
> > the same glasses for reading books and for dealing with terminals -- I am 
> > lucky that they are fairly "weak" glasses. The discussion about z/OSMF? One 
> > of these months I will need to spend some time with it. These days I mostly 
> > use a relatively slow machine for z/OS and the performance is not 
> > attractive for z/OSMF. Bill Ogden 
> > -- For 
> > IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
> > lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
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Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: z/OSMF

[rpinion865]

Don't remember the manufacturer, I want the actual 3270 keyboard with the USB 
connect.

Sent from Proton Mail mobile

 Original Message 
On Jul 4, 2023, 3:53 PM, billogden wrote:

> Interesting discussion on screen sizes, keyboards, etc. Many of us have 
> various different opinions. My opinions have changed since the early days 
> when some of us (the "older" ones) used 2260s instead of 3270s. I am using a 
> 21" screen at the moment, with three "windows" open on it. I would not want a 
> larger screen and perhaps would prefer a slightly smaller one. I prefer a 
> size that does not require me to constantly move my head to focus on 
> different parts of the screen. For 3270 emulation I prefer 133 character 
> width (and most of us probably agree on that) and at least 50 lines high (and 
> this could vary somewhat). I find 17" laptop screens OK, but not great. More 
> important for me (because I work mostly with text) is having good character 
> resolution. Perhaps because I as not as young as I was a few years ago, I 
> find long periods with crudely-formed characters to be more exhausting. Given 
> a choice, I would say this is more important than the actual screen size. I 
> am not fond of laptop keyboards --- IMO they range from barely OK to poor. At 
> the moment I am using an old PC AT keyboard (with the "round" adapter plug 
> going to a converter to connect it to a USB port). It has the numeric keypad 
> (which I do not use) and has good "movement" of the keys that provides a 
> positive feedback for an old guy like me. (The "real" 3270 terminals had 
> great keyboards!) I can deal with the red "mouse control" on IBM-designed 
> laptop keyboards when needed, but I prefer a "real" mouse (with the center 
> "dial" function, if possible). I use the same glasses for reading books and 
> for dealing with terminals -- I am lucky that they are fairly "weak" glasses. 
> The discussion about z/OSMF? One of these months I will need to spend some 
> time with it. These days I mostly use a relatively slow machine for z/OS and 
> the performance is not attractive for z/OSMF. Bill Ogden 
> -- For 
> IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
> lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: z/OSMF

[billogden]

Interesting discussion on screen sizes, keyboards, etc. Many of us have
various different opinions. My opinions have changed since the early days
when some of us (the "older" ones) used 2260s instead of 3270s.

I am using a 21" screen at the moment, with three "windows" open on it. I
would not want a larger screen and perhaps would prefer a slightly smaller
one. I prefer a size that does not require me to constantly move my head to
focus on different parts of the screen. For 3270 emulation I prefer 133
character width (and most of us probably agree on that) and at least 50
lines high (and this could vary somewhat). I find 17" laptop screens OK, but
not great.

More important for me (because I work mostly with text) is having good
character resolution. Perhaps because I as not as young as I was a few years
ago, I find long periods with crudely-formed characters to be more
exhausting. Given a choice, I would say this is more important than the
actual screen size.

I am not fond of laptop keyboards --- IMO they range from barely OK to poor.
At the moment I am using an old PC AT keyboard (with the "round" adapter
plug going to a converter to connect it to a USB port). It has the numeric
keypad (which I do not use) and has good "movement" of the keys that
provides a positive feedback for an old guy like me. (The "real" 3270
terminals had great keyboards!)

I can deal with the red "mouse control" on IBM-designed laptop keyboards
when needed, but I prefer a "real" mouse (with the center "dial" function,
if possible).

I use the same glasses for reading books and for dealing with terminals -- I
am lucky that they are fairly "weak" glasses.

The discussion about z/OSMF? One of these months I will need to spend some
time with it. These days I mostly use a relatively slow machine for z/OS and
the performance is not attractive for z/OSMF.

Bill Ogden 

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Re: Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

[Laurence Chiu]

With the ubiquity of Amazon devices it's likely the OP has one of these
(Echo, Dot etc.) Just say Alexa Play Colossal Cave and it will play the
game for you.

XYZZY :-)

On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 6:19 AM Mike Schwab  wrote:

> Install Linux on Android, 3270 emulator, Turkey 4-, then the games?
>
> On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 12:09 PM Phil Smith III  wrote:
> >
> > Y'all might think about changing subject lines occasionally. ;)
> >
> >
> >
> > Alas, the Colossal Cave seems to not be compatible with current Android
> versions. I take that to mean the developer has lost interest. Too bad;
> seemed like a nice blast from the past time-waster!
> >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
> --
> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
>
> --
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>

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Re: Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

[Mike Schwab]

Install Linux on Android, 3270 emulator, Turkey 4-, then the games?

On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 12:09 PM Phil Smith III  wrote:
>
> Y'all might think about changing subject lines occasionally. ;)
>
>
>
> Alas, the Colossal Cave seems to not be compatible with current Android 
> versions. I take that to mean the developer has lost interest. Too bad; 
> seemed like a nice blast from the past time-waster!
>
>
> --
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-- 
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Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

[Phil Smith III]

Y'all might think about changing subject lines occasionally. ;)

 

Alas, the Colossal Cave seems to not be compatible with current Android 
versions. I take that to mean the developer has lost interest. Too bad; seemed 
like a nice blast from the past time-waster!


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Re: z/OSMF

[Tom Brennan]

LOL haven't heard that since I was a kid watching a b/w TV.

On 7/4/2023 1:06 AM, rpinion865 wrote:

What about Pimento University, good old PU.

Sent from Proton Mail mobile

 Original Message 
On Jul 4, 2023, 7:32 AM, Tom Brennan wrote:


LOL On 7/3/2023 8:30 PM, Eric Erickson wrote: > PLUGH! > > 
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Re: z/OSMF

[rpinion865]

What about Pimento University, good old PU.

Sent from Proton Mail mobile

 Original Message 
On Jul 4, 2023, 7:32 AM, Tom Brennan wrote:

> LOL On 7/3/2023 8:30 PM, Eric Erickson wrote: > PLUGH! > > 
> -- > For 
> IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to 
> lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > 
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Re: z/OSMF

[Tom Brennan]

LOL

On 7/3/2023 8:30 PM, Eric Erickson wrote:

PLUGH!

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Re: z/OSMF

[Tom Brennan]

No, community college in Southern California, almost free at the time.

On 7/3/2023 8:15 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Yes, about that year for me too, and at a university.  Not A State U in 
Greensboro, NC, by any chance?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* What fills the eye fills the heart.  -Celtic proverb
We begin by coveting what we see every day.  -Hannibal Lecter in "Silence of the 
Lambs"
I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes.  -Psalms 101:3 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 21:08

Same here, ADVEN on a DEC 10 running TOPS-10, around 1979.  One college instructor told 
us to play it and said, "Let them play games, and that will get them 
interested."

--- On 7/3/2023 12:05 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out the 
whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it since 
then.


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Re: z/OSMF

[Eric Erickson]

PLUGH!

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Re: z/OSMF

[Bob Bridges]

Yes, about that year for me too, and at a university.  Not A State U in 
Greensboro, NC, by any chance?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* What fills the eye fills the heart.  -Celtic proverb
We begin by coveting what we see every day.  -Hannibal Lecter in "Silence of 
the Lambs"
I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes.  -Psalms 101:3 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 21:08

Same here, ADVEN on a DEC 10 running TOPS-10, around 1979.  One college 
instructor told us to play it and said, "Let them play games, and that will get 
them interested."

--- On 7/3/2023 12:05 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
> 36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out 
> the whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it 
> since then.

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Re: z/OSMF

[Tom Brennan]

Same here, ADVEN on a DEC 10 running TOPS-10, around 1979.  One college 
instructor told us to play it and said, "Let them play games, and that 
will get them interested."


On 7/3/2023 12:05 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out the 
whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it since 
then.

I well remember struggling to figure out the puzzle of the dragon.  THROW AXE; "The axe glances 
harmlessly off the dragon's scales"  KILL DRAGON; "With what?  Your bare hands?"  FEED DRAGON; 
"There's nothing here it wants to eat (except possibly you)."  After some days I gave up and peeked 
over another player's shoulder while she worked her way casually through the parts of the maze she already 
understood.

Two heads are definitely better than one in such games.  A friend and I were both puzzled 
in the same part of the cavern.  I saw a lump of coal in the corner and was instantly 
sure that it could be turned into diamond, so when I ran across the thing that looked 
like a washing machine I figured I'd found the right tool for it; but I couldn't figure 
out how to make it work.  There was a coin slot, but it didn't seem interested in my 
coins.  Meanwhile David had very easily understood how to make the "washing 
machine" work, but he couldn't figure out what it was for.  It wasn't until we 
talked about it that we got the whole picture.

Later we collaborated on Zork, with similarly productive results.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Men acquire a particular quality by constantly acting a particular way... 
you become just by performing just actions, temperate by performing temperate 
actions, brave by performing brave actions.  -Aristotle */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:43

You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--- On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.

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Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

The version that I saw was table driven; it was half a century ago, but I 
vaguel recall a response of "You've got to be kidding", but I may be confusing 
that with the response to "throw troll".


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 5:59 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

I once spent a pleasurable few days hacking (or rather trying to hack)
Colossal Cave's "magic mode".  The DEC-10 machine at the college I worked at
back then had very little security; I could  a program and then
examine the machine code at leisure.  I got quite a few steps into the
rather lengthy process of establishing myself as a "wizard", but didn't
finish before I ended up doing something else - taking another job somewhere
else, I think it was, but I don't remember for sure.

And yes, experimenting with various strategies in a complicated game is
often more fun than just playing it.  Once I discovered the application of
statistics to "games theory", I began to think it'd be fun to work on that.
But that was before I became a coder, which still keeps me interested.

Out of curiosity, did the game know what to do with "eat bird"?  I guess if
they were doing their job, the writers needed to match every verb with every
object and invent a result, just to satisfy people like you.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* When the omniscient God asks you a question, it is not because He is
seeking information.  -from "The Final Quest" by Rick Joyner */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 17:53

I always found writing games to be more interesting than playing them, and
will run experiments rather than concentrating on winning. An example was
when I wondered what Adventure would do with absud actions such as "eat
bird" or "throw troll".

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Re: z/OSMF

[Bob Bridges]

I once spent a pleasurable few days hacking (or rather trying to hack)
Colossal Cave's "magic mode".  The DEC-10 machine at the college I worked at
back then had very little security; I could  a program and then
examine the machine code at leisure.  I got quite a few steps into the
rather lengthy process of establishing myself as a "wizard", but didn't
finish before I ended up doing something else - taking another job somewhere
else, I think it was, but I don't remember for sure.

And yes, experimenting with various strategies in a complicated game is
often more fun than just playing it.  Once I discovered the application of
statistics to "games theory", I began to think it'd be fun to work on that.
But that was before I became a coder, which still keeps me interested.

Out of curiosity, did the game know what to do with "eat bird"?  I guess if
they were doing their job, the writers needed to match every verb with every
object and invent a result, just to satisfy people like you.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* When the omniscient God asks you a question, it is not because He is
seeking information.  -from "The Final Quest" by Rick Joyner */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 17:53

I always found writing games to be more interesting than playing them, and
will run experiments rather than concentrating on winning. An example was
when I wondered what Adventure would do with absud actions such as "eat
bird" or "throw troll".

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Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

I always found writing games to be more interesting than playing them, and will 
run experiments rather than concentrating on winning. An example was when I 
wondered what Adventure would do with absud actions such as "eat bird" or 
"throw troll".


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 3:05 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out the 
whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it since 
then.

I well remember struggling to figure out the puzzle of the dragon.  THROW AXE; 
"The axe glances harmlessly off the dragon's scales"  KILL DRAGON; "With what?  
Your bare hands?"  FEED DRAGON; "There's nothing here it wants to eat (except 
possibly you)."  After some days I gave up and peeked over another player's 
shoulder while she worked her way casually through the parts of the maze she 
already understood.

Two heads are definitely better than one in such games.  A friend and I were 
both puzzled in the same part of the cavern.  I saw a lump of coal in the 
corner and was instantly sure that it could be turned into diamond, so when I 
ran across the thing that looked like a washing machine I figured I'd found the 
right tool for it; but I couldn't figure out how to make it work.  There was a 
coin slot, but it didn't seem interested in my coins.  Meanwhile David had very 
easily understood how to make the "washing machine" work, but he couldn't 
figure out what it was for.  It wasn't until we talked about it that we got the 
whole picture.

Later we collaborated on Zork, with similarly productive results.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Men acquire a particular quality by constantly acting a particular way... 
you become just by performing just actions, temperate by performing temperate 
actions, brave by performing brave actions.  -Aristotle */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:43

You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--- On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.

--
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Re: z/OSMF

[Bob Bridges]

Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out the 
whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it since 
then.

I well remember struggling to figure out the puzzle of the dragon.  THROW AXE; 
"The axe glances harmlessly off the dragon's scales"  KILL DRAGON; "With what?  
Your bare hands?"  FEED DRAGON; "There's nothing here it wants to eat (except 
possibly you)."  After some days I gave up and peeked over another player's 
shoulder while she worked her way casually through the parts of the maze she 
already understood.

Two heads are definitely better than one in such games.  A friend and I were 
both puzzled in the same part of the cavern.  I saw a lump of coal in the 
corner and was instantly sure that it could be turned into diamond, so when I 
ran across the thing that looked like a washing machine I figured I'd found the 
right tool for it; but I couldn't figure out how to make it work.  There was a 
coin slot, but it didn't seem interested in my coins.  Meanwhile David had very 
easily understood how to make the "washing machine" work, but he couldn't 
figure out what it was for.  It wasn't until we talked about it that we got the 
whole picture.

Later we collaborated on Zork, with similarly productive results.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Men acquire a particular quality by constantly acting a particular way... 
you become just by performing just actions, temperate by performing temperate 
actions, brave by performing brave actions.  -Aristotle */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:43

You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--- On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.

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Re: z/OSMF

[Pew, Curtis G]

On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.


You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--
Curtis Pew
ITS Campus Solutions
curtis@austin.utexas.edu




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Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 2:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

LOL!  Did you know Colossal Cave is now available on Android?  I got myself a 
copy, intending to map it all out, but so far I'm still exploring the forest on 
the surface.  Haven't played it in decades.  Maybe I should introduce it to my 
grandchildren.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ERRATA:  For "errata" read "erratum". */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:01

ObNotAdventure You are in a maze of twisty keyboards, all different.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:58 PM

10-11 in laptops generally have 90% keyboard without numeric keyboard..
13-15 in laptops generally have 100% keyboard without numeric keyboard.
17 in + laptops generally have 100% keyboard with numeric keyboard.

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Re: z/OSMF

[Bob Bridges]

LOL!  Did you know Colossal Cave is now available on Android?  I got myself a 
copy, intending to map it all out, but so far I'm still exploring the forest on 
the surface.  Haven't played it in decades.  Maybe I should introduce it to my 
grandchildren.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ERRATA:  For "errata" read "erratum". */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:01

ObNotAdventure You are in a maze of twisty keyboards, all different.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:58 PM

10-11 in laptops generally have 90% keyboard without numeric keyboard..
13-15 in laptops generally have 100% keyboard without numeric keyboard.
17 in + laptops generally have 100% keyboard with numeric keyboard.

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Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

ObNotAdventure You are in a maze of twisty keyboards, all different.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

10-11 in laptops generally have 90% keyboard without numeric keyboard..
13-15 in laptops generally have 100% keyboard without numeric keyboard.
17 in + laptops generally have 100% keyboard with numeric keyboard.

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 10:40 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> People use to complain when I printed 88 lines per page (8 LPI instead of 6); 
> later on, with laser printers, I always used smaller fonts than my colleagues 
> liked.
>
> As for lacktops (sic), my biggest complaint is the keyboard. Why is it no 
> longer possible to buy a laptop with a standard AT or converged key layout, a 
> mini trackball and the keys at the front of the keyboard?
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Bob Bridges 
> Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 10:58 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OSMF
>
> Apparently I used to have really high-resolution eyesight, judging by the 
> comments of coworkers ("How can you read that?!"); not so much any more.  I 
> now keep around two types of reading classes, a weaker broad-eye set for 
> reading my monitor at arm's length and slightly stronger granny glasses for 
> reading up close.  Haven't tried bifocals yet.
>
> Or have I?  I now work at home, and sometimes at my desk I wear them both at 
> the same time rather than switching back and forth.  Then I stand up and get 
> the door, or join a Teams meeting, and someone is quizzical about the fact 
> that I seem to be wearing two sets of glasses at once, I having forgotten 
> about them.  It eventually dawned on me that with broad glasses covering my 
> field of vision and granny glasses at the bottom, that ~is~ bifocals in a 
> sense.  Maybe if Ben Franklin had tried that he wouldn't have invented real 
> bifocals.  (Somebody else probably would have, though.)
>
> But as my eyes deteriorate I'm going to have to go to an optometrist 
> eventually; no telling what he'll make me wear, and I suspect I'll wonder 
> then why I can magically see again and why in the world I waited so long.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling 
> exception, is composed of others.  -John Andrew Holmes */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> David Purdy
> Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 21:59
>
> Second best investment was bifocals cut for 18" monitor and closer for 
> reading. Ergonomics again...the neck was grateful and more relaxed at the end 
> of a day.
>
> --
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>
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Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: z/OSMF

[Mike Schwab]

10-11 in laptops generally have 90% keyboard without numeric keyboard..
13-15 in laptops generally have 100% keyboard without numeric keyboard.
17 in + laptops generally have 100% keyboard with numeric keyboard.

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 10:40 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> People use to complain when I printed 88 lines per page (8 LPI instead of 6); 
> later on, with laser printers, I always used smaller fonts than my colleagues 
> liked.
>
> As for lacktops (sic), my biggest complaint is the keyboard. Why is it no 
> longer possible to buy a laptop with a standard AT or converged key layout, a 
> mini trackball and the keys at the front of the keyboard?
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Bob Bridges 
> Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 10:58 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OSMF
>
> Apparently I used to have really high-resolution eyesight, judging by the 
> comments of coworkers ("How can you read that?!"); not so much any more.  I 
> now keep around two types of reading classes, a weaker broad-eye set for 
> reading my monitor at arm's length and slightly stronger granny glasses for 
> reading up close.  Haven't tried bifocals yet.
>
> Or have I?  I now work at home, and sometimes at my desk I wear them both at 
> the same time rather than switching back and forth.  Then I stand up and get 
> the door, or join a Teams meeting, and someone is quizzical about the fact 
> that I seem to be wearing two sets of glasses at once, I having forgotten 
> about them.  It eventually dawned on me that with broad glasses covering my 
> field of vision and granny glasses at the bottom, that ~is~ bifocals in a 
> sense.  Maybe if Ben Franklin had tried that he wouldn't have invented real 
> bifocals.  (Somebody else probably would have, though.)
>
> But as my eyes deteriorate I'm going to have to go to an optometrist 
> eventually; no telling what he'll make me wear, and I suspect I'll wonder 
> then why I can magically see again and why in the world I waited so long.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling 
> exception, is composed of others.  -John Andrew Holmes */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> David Purdy
> Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 21:59
>
> Second best investment was bifocals cut for 18" monitor and closer for 
> reading. Ergonomics again...the neck was grateful and more relaxed at the end 
> of a day.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

People use to complain when I printed 88 lines per page (8 LPI instead of 6); 
later on, with laser printers, I always used smaller fonts than my colleagues 
liked.

As for lacktops (sic), my biggest complaint is the keyboard. Why is it no 
longer possible to buy a laptop with a standard AT or converged key layout, a 
mini trackball and the keys at the front of the keyboard?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 10:58 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

Apparently I used to have really high-resolution eyesight, judging by the 
comments of coworkers ("How can you read that?!"); not so much any more.  I now 
keep around two types of reading classes, a weaker broad-eye set for reading my 
monitor at arm's length and slightly stronger granny glasses for reading up 
close.  Haven't tried bifocals yet.

Or have I?  I now work at home, and sometimes at my desk I wear them both at 
the same time rather than switching back and forth.  Then I stand up and get 
the door, or join a Teams meeting, and someone is quizzical about the fact that 
I seem to be wearing two sets of glasses at once, I having forgotten about 
them.  It eventually dawned on me that with broad glasses covering my field of 
vision and granny glasses at the bottom, that ~is~ bifocals in a sense.  Maybe 
if Ben Franklin had tried that he wouldn't have invented real bifocals.  
(Somebody else probably would have, though.)

But as my eyes deteriorate I'm going to have to go to an optometrist 
eventually; no telling what he'll make me wear, and I suspect I'll wonder then 
why I can magically see again and why in the world I waited so long.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling 
exception, is composed of others.  -John Andrew Holmes */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Purdy
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 21:59

Second best investment was bifocals cut for 18" monitor and closer for reading. 
Ergonomics again...the neck was grateful and more relaxed at the end of a day.

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Re: z/OSMF

[Bob Bridges]

I used laptops for years because of travel, but I never used their screens
or keyboards at home.  I plug a real screen and a real keyboard into the
laptop, oh yes and a real trackball too.  Laptops are marvelous inventions,
but there's no need to put up with their limitations.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The peculiarity of "civil rights" and associated legislation ("hate
crimes," for instance) is that they criminalize motives, as opposed to
actions.  -from _Are You a Marxist?_ by Joe Sobran, 1998 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 00:39

Throughout my career,  my definitions of large and small monitors kept
shifting; where once 17" was something to aspire to, I now consider it to be
tiny, and where once 4Kx4K was "if you have to ask you can't afford it", now
"8K UHD" is merely expensive.

While I have small legacy laptops and am force to use small screens for
work, It's been decades since I purchased anything smaller than 21".

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Re: z/OSMF

[Bob Bridges]

Apparently I used to have really high-resolution eyesight, judging by the 
comments of coworkers ("How can you read that?!"); not so much any more.  I now 
keep around two types of reading classes, a weaker broad-eye set for reading my 
monitor at arm's length and slightly stronger granny glasses for reading up 
close.  Haven't tried bifocals yet.

Or have I?  I now work at home, and sometimes at my desk I wear them both at 
the same time rather than switching back and forth.  Then I stand up and get 
the door, or join a Teams meeting, and someone is quizzical about the fact that 
I seem to be wearing two sets of glasses at once, I having forgotten about 
them.  It eventually dawned on me that with broad glasses covering my field of 
vision and granny glasses at the bottom, that ~is~ bifocals in a sense.  Maybe 
if Ben Franklin had tried that he wouldn't have invented real bifocals.  
(Somebody else probably would have, though.)

But as my eyes deteriorate I'm going to have to go to an optometrist 
eventually; no telling what he'll make me wear, and I suspect I'll wonder then 
why I can magically see again and why in the world I waited so long.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling 
exception, is composed of others.  -John Andrew Holmes */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Purdy
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 21:59

Second best investment was bifocals cut for 18" monitor and closer for reading. 
Ergonomics again...the neck was grateful and more relaxed at the end of a day.

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Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

Long ago in a galaxy far away I was content with a 3180 running 43x80 primary 
and 27x132 secondary (required a custom logmode) and was happy with a 3290 
running as one 62x160 screen with ISPF SPLIT and VSPLIT to subdivide it.

Alas, while I know of TN3270 clients that support 62x160, I don't know of any 
that is compatible with the 3290; specifically, I don't know of any that 
support explicit partitions, required by ISPF for VSPLIT.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Spiegel [0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 8:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

Hi Terri,
If you have a 14 inch monitor, it is time to invest in your career and
get a proper monitor (e.g. 27 inch minimum).
If you're seeing 3-4 lines, it also means that you're probably using
Model 2 emulation (24x80). Model 2 for a SysProg wastes a lot of time
with unnecessarily scrolling, plus your context is not useful.
You should be running (minimum) Model 4 emulation (43x80) and preferably
3290 emulation (62x160).

Regards,
David

On 2023-07-02 19:50, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> Besides having ServerPac back, I want no background checking down.
>
> I want batch jobs built to allocate everything, IF a newbie want to trust the 
> process awesome.  But in my 38 years, opps doesn’t cut it.
>
> Again, just give me a switch.  Allow the scripts to build the batch jobs and 
> I will verify everything exists, if a conflict arises in dataset names, flag 
> them and I will resolve in batch.
>
> Then too many headers, Tabs, etc, in workflows means you only see about 3-4 
> lines on a 14" monitor. I should not have to acquire a new monitor to run/see 
> them with ease.
>
> Again I hate, anything that runs remote to the lpar, it’s the first thing 
> that doesn’t respond, besides using way too much CPU overall, just to screen 
> flip.
>
> Serverpac hardly ever got out of period 1, TSO.
>
> Just a bad design overall
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> kekronbekron
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2023 11:39 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
>
>
> In an attempt to steer this to a brainstorming thing...
>
> What are the components of zOSMF, and what are the warts people have noticed?
> Apart from the UI or that a UI itself exists.
>
> Websphere Liberty,... what else?
> What parts are tunable, what capabilities are needed, etc?
>
>
> - KB
>
> --- Original Message ---
> On Saturday, July 1st, 2023 at 2:38 AM, Tom Marchant 
> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> I don't see why, and that wouldn't be consistent with what they have done in 
>> the past.
>> Some examples:
>> z/OS 2.1 was available September 2013. It was not supported on a z990
>> or a Z890. Support for those were dropped in 2014 and 2016 z/OS 2.2 was 
>> available in 2015. It was not supported on a z9. z9 EC was supported until 
>> 2017. z9 BC was supported until 2019.
>> z/OS 2.3 was available in 2017. It was not supported on a z196 (support 
>> dropped 2021) or z114 (supported until 2022).
>> z/OS 2.5 was available in 2021. It was not supported on a zEC12 or a zBC12. 
>> AFAIK, support for those have not yet been dropped.
>>
>> I'm not sure, but I think that what IBM has done is to support a level of 
>> hardware until the last release of z/OS that is supported on that machine is 
>> off support, or at least withdrawn from marketing. Not to support a new 
>> release of the operating system on all processors that are currently 
>> supported at GA.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Marchant
>>
>> On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 01:01:21 -0500, Brian Westerman 
>> brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com wrote:
>>
>>> So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
>>> officially out? If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1. . . .
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
>> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email 

Re: z/OSMF

[David Crayford]

The z/OSMF UI suffers from a notable issue - despite being labeled as 
modern, it falls short in comparison to current web UI standards. It 
relies on the outdated Dojo Toolkit, which was already considered 
outdated when z/OSMF was initially released and is practically obsolete 
now. In defense of Terri and her 14" screen, z/OSMF should be designed 
to be usable on mobile devices by implementing responsive design 
principles. Responsive design aims to ensure that web pages render well 
across various devices and screen sizes, from the minimum to maximum 
display size, ensuring usability and user satisfaction.


To test this, one can press F12 on any browser while in z/OSMF and 
select a device from the mobile device mode button. Unfortunately, 
z/OSMF fails to resize correctly, resulting in a terrible user 
experience. If this is considered the future, it is a concerning 
prospect. IBM should consider engaging experienced UX professionals to 
address these issues promptly, as the current state of z/OSMF is far 
from satisfactory.


On 3/7/2023 7:50 am, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

Besides having ServerPac back, I want no background checking down.

I want batch jobs built to allocate everything, IF a newbie want to trust the 
process awesome.  But in my 38 years, opps doesn’t cut it.

Again, just give me a switch.  Allow the scripts to build the batch jobs and I 
will verify everything exists, if a conflict arises in dataset names, flag them 
and I will resolve in batch.

Then too many headers, Tabs, etc, in workflows means you only see about 3-4 lines on 
a 14" monitor. I should not have to acquire a new monitor to run/see them with 
ease.

Again I hate, anything that runs remote to the lpar, it’s the first thing that 
doesn’t respond, besides using way too much CPU overall, just to screen flip.

Serverpac hardly ever got out of period 1, TSO.

Just a bad design overall

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
kekronbekron
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2023 11:39 PM
To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


In an attempt to steer this to a brainstorming thing...

What are the components of zOSMF, and what are the warts people have noticed?
Apart from the UI or that a UI itself exists.

Websphere Liberty,... what else?
What parts are tunable, what capabilities are needed, etc?


- KB

--- Original Message ---
On Saturday, July 1st, 2023 at 2:38 AM, Tom 
Marchant<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>  wrote:



I don't see why, and that wouldn't be consistent with what they have done in 
the past.
Some examples:
z/OS 2.1 was available September 2013. It was not supported on a z990
or a Z890. Support for those were dropped in 2014 and 2016 z/OS 2.2 was 
available in 2015. It was not supported on a z9. z9 EC was supported until 
2017. z9 BC was supported until 2019.
z/OS 2.3 was available in 2017. It was not supported on a z196 (support dropped 
2021) or z114 (supported until 2022).
z/OS 2.5 was available in 2021. It was not supported on a zEC12 or a zBC12. 
AFAIK, support for those have not yet been dropped.

I'm not sure, but I think that what IBM has done is to support a level of 
hardware until the last release of z/OS that is supported on that machine is 
off support, or at least withdrawn from marketing. Not to support a new release 
of the operating system on all processors that are currently supported at GA.

--
Tom Marchant

On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 01:01:21 -0500, Brian 
westermanbrian_wester...@syzygyinc.com  wrote:


So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
officially out? If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1. . . .


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Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

24x80 is something that I may have been forced into at work but would never 
accept on a PC that I conrol. Likewise 14". I currently have a 32" UHD monitor 
an am considerong 43". YMMV.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Shaffer, Terri [017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 9:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

Amazing for 38 years, I have never used anything bigger than 14" PC monitor. My 
24x80 saves my eyes at age 60, that I don't need glasses.. So that's a poor 
excuse.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Spiegel
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 8:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


Hi Terri,
If you have a 14 inch monitor, it is time to invest in your career and get a 
proper monitor (e.g. 27 inch minimum).
If you're seeing 3-4 lines, it also means that you're probably using Model 2 
emulation (24x80). Model 2 for a SysProg wastes a lot of time with 
unnecessarily scrolling, plus your context is not useful.
You should be running (minimum) Model 4 emulation (43x80) and preferably
3290 emulation (62x160).

Regards,
David

On 2023-07-02 19:50, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> Besides having ServerPac back, I want no background checking down.
>
> I want batch jobs built to allocate everything, IF a newbie want to trust the 
> process awesome.  But in my 38 years, opps doesn't cut it.
>
> Again, just give me a switch.  Allow the scripts to build the batch jobs and 
> I will verify everything exists, if a conflict arises in dataset names, flag 
> them and I will resolve in batch.
>
> Then too many headers, Tabs, etc, in workflows means you only see about 3-4 
> lines on a 14" monitor. I should not have to acquire a new monitor to run/see 
> them with ease.
>
> Again I hate, anything that runs remote to the lpar, it's the first thing 
> that doesn't respond, besides using way too much CPU overall, just to screen 
> flip.
>
> Serverpac hardly ever got out of period 1, TSO.
>
> Just a bad design overall
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of kekronbekron
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2023 11:39 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
>
>
> In an attempt to steer this to a brainstorming thing...
>
> What are the components of zOSMF, and what are the warts people have noticed?
> Apart from the UI or that a UI itself exists.
>
> Websphere Liberty,... what else?
> What parts are tunable, what capabilities are needed, etc?
>
>
> - KB
>
> --- Original Message ---
> On Saturday, July 1st, 2023 at 2:38 AM, Tom Marchant 
> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> I don't see why, and that wouldn't be consistent with what they have done in 
>> the past.
>> Some examples:
>> z/OS 2.1 was available September 2013. It was not supported on a z990
>> or a Z890. Support for those were dropped in 2014 and 2016 z/OS 2.2 was 
>> available in 2015. It was not supported on a z9. z9 EC was supported until 
>> 2017. z9 BC was supported until 2019.
>> z/OS 2.3 was available in 2017. It was not supported on a z196 (support 
>> dropped 2021) or z114 (supported until 2022).
>> z/OS 2.5 was available in 2021. It was not supported on a zEC12 or a zBC12. 
>> AFAIK, support for those have not yet been dropped.
>>
>> I'm not sure, but I think that what IBM has done is to support a level of 
>> hardware until the last release of z/OS that is supported on that machine is 
>> off support, or at least withdrawn from marketing. Not to support a new 
>> release of the operating system on all processors that are currently 
>> supported at GA.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Marchant
>>
>> On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 01:01:21 -0500, Brian Westerman 
>> brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com wrote:
>>
>>> So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
>>> officially out? If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1. . . .
>>
>> -

Re: z/OSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

Throughout my career,  my definitions of large and small monitors kept 
shifting; where once 17" was something to aspire to, I now consider it to be 
tiny, and where once 4Kx4K was "if you have to ask you can't afford it", now 
"8K UHD" is merely expensive.

While I have small legacy laptops and am force to use small screens for work, 
It's been decades since I purchased anything smaller than 21".

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 9:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

Bigger monitor + larger 3270 screen format = same size type.

Large monitors are under $200.

It's your right to stick with 80's display technology but it's not IBM's fault 
that you then have a problem with more modern screen layouts.

Charles

On Mon, 3 Jul 2023 01:19:24 +, Shaffer, Terri 
 wrote:

>Amazing for 38 years, I have never used anything bigger than 14" PC monitor. 
>My 24x80 saves my eyes at age 60, that I don't need glasses.. So that's a poor 
>excuse.

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Re: z/OSMF

[David Purdy]

 Best investment I made WFH is a $250 43" 4K TV used as a monitor.6 - 8 
viewable windows at the same time, plus ergonomic while not having to do a 
cranium swivel between multiple monitors.
.And a tan at the same time...

Second best investment was bifocals cut for 18" monitor and closer for reading. 
Ergonomics again...the neck was grateful and more relaxed at the end of a day.
David
On Sunday, July 2, 2023 at 09:38:49 PM EDT, Charles Mills 
 wrote:  
 
 Bigger monitor + larger 3270 screen format = same size type.

Large monitors are under $200.

It's your right to stick with 80's display technology but it's not IBM's fault 
that you then have a problem with more modern screen layouts.

Charles

On Mon, 3 Jul 2023 01:19:24 +, Shaffer, Terri 
 wrote:

>Amazing for 38 years, I have never used anything bigger than 14" PC monitor. 
>My 24x80 saves my eyes at age 60, that I don't need glasses.. So that's a poor 
>excuse.

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Re: z/OSMF

[Charles Mills]

Bigger monitor + larger 3270 screen format = same size type.

Large monitors are under $200.

It's your right to stick with 80's display technology but it's not IBM's fault 
that you then have a problem with more modern screen layouts.

Charles

On Mon, 3 Jul 2023 01:19:24 +, Shaffer, Terri 
 wrote:

>Amazing for 38 years, I have never used anything bigger than 14" PC monitor. 
>My 24x80 saves my eyes at age 60, that I don't need glasses.. So that's a poor 
>excuse.

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Re: z/OSMF

[David Spiegel]

HI Terri,
My grandpa drove a Model T ... Should I also drive one?
(I'm 67 and have been wearing glasses for almost 55 years. This is 
irrelevant.)


Regards,
David

On 2023-07-02 21:19, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

Amazing for 38 years, I have never used anything bigger than 14" PC monitor. My 
24x80 saves my eyes at age 60, that I don't need glasses.. So that's a poor excuse.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Spiegel
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 8:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


Hi Terri,
If you have a 14 inch monitor, it is time to invest in your career and get a 
proper monitor (e.g. 27 inch minimum).
If you're seeing 3-4 lines, it also means that you're probably using Model 2 
emulation (24x80). Model 2 for a SysProg wastes a lot of time with 
unnecessarily scrolling, plus your context is not useful.
You should be running (minimum) Model 4 emulation (43x80) and preferably
3290 emulation (62x160).

Regards,
David

On 2023-07-02 19:50, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

Besides having ServerPac back, I want no background checking down.

I want batch jobs built to allocate everything, IF a newbie want to trust the 
process awesome.  But in my 38 years, opps doesn't cut it.

Again, just give me a switch.  Allow the scripts to build the batch jobs and I 
will verify everything exists, if a conflict arises in dataset names, flag them 
and I will resolve in batch.

Then too many headers, Tabs, etc, in workflows means you only see about 3-4 lines on 
a 14" monitor. I should not have to acquire a new monitor to run/see them with 
ease.

Again I hate, anything that runs remote to the lpar, it's the first thing that 
doesn't respond, besides using way too much CPU overall, just to screen flip.

Serverpac hardly ever got out of period 1, TSO.

Just a bad design overall

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
Behalf Of kekronbekron
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2023 11:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


In an attempt to steer this to a brainstorming thing...

What are the components of zOSMF, and what are the warts people have noticed?
Apart from the UI or that a UI itself exists.

Websphere Liberty,... what else?
What parts are tunable, what capabilities are needed, etc?


- KB

--- Original Message ---
On Saturday, July 1st, 2023 at 2:38 AM, Tom Marchant 
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:



I don't see why, and that wouldn't be consistent with what they have done in 
the past.
Some examples:
z/OS 2.1 was available September 2013. It was not supported on a z990
or a Z890. Support for those were dropped in 2014 and 2016 z/OS 2.2 was 
available in 2015. It was not supported on a z9. z9 EC was supported until 
2017. z9 BC was supported until 2019.
z/OS 2.3 was available in 2017. It was not supported on a z196 (support dropped 
2021) or z114 (supported until 2022).
z/OS 2.5 was available in 2021. It was not supported on a zEC12 or a zBC12. 
AFAIK, support for those have not yet been dropped.

I'm not sure, but I think that what IBM has done is to support a level of 
hardware until the last release of z/OS that is supported on that machine is 
off support, or at least withdrawn from marketing. Not to support a new release 
of the operating system on all processors that are currently supported at GA.

--
Tom Marchant

On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 01:01:21 -0500, Brian Westerman 
brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com wrote:


So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
officially out? If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1. . . .

-
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IBM-MAIN

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Re: z/OSMF

[Shaffer, Terri]

Amazing for 38 years, I have never used anything bigger than 14" PC monitor. My 
24x80 saves my eyes at age 60, that I don't need glasses.. So that's a poor 
excuse.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Spiegel
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 8:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


Hi Terri,
If you have a 14 inch monitor, it is time to invest in your career and get a 
proper monitor (e.g. 27 inch minimum).
If you're seeing 3-4 lines, it also means that you're probably using Model 2 
emulation (24x80). Model 2 for a SysProg wastes a lot of time with 
unnecessarily scrolling, plus your context is not useful.
You should be running (minimum) Model 4 emulation (43x80) and preferably
3290 emulation (62x160).

Regards,
David

On 2023-07-02 19:50, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> Besides having ServerPac back, I want no background checking down.
>
> I want batch jobs built to allocate everything, IF a newbie want to trust the 
> process awesome.  But in my 38 years, opps doesn't cut it.
>
> Again, just give me a switch.  Allow the scripts to build the batch jobs and 
> I will verify everything exists, if a conflict arises in dataset names, flag 
> them and I will resolve in batch.
>
> Then too many headers, Tabs, etc, in workflows means you only see about 3-4 
> lines on a 14" monitor. I should not have to acquire a new monitor to run/see 
> them with ease.
>
> Again I hate, anything that runs remote to the lpar, it's the first thing 
> that doesn't respond, besides using way too much CPU overall, just to screen 
> flip.
>
> Serverpac hardly ever got out of period 1, TSO.
>
> Just a bad design overall
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of kekronbekron
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2023 11:39 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
>
>
> In an attempt to steer this to a brainstorming thing...
>
> What are the components of zOSMF, and what are the warts people have noticed?
> Apart from the UI or that a UI itself exists.
>
> Websphere Liberty,... what else?
> What parts are tunable, what capabilities are needed, etc?
>
>
> - KB
>
> --- Original Message ---
> On Saturday, July 1st, 2023 at 2:38 AM, Tom Marchant 
> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> I don't see why, and that wouldn't be consistent with what they have done in 
>> the past.
>> Some examples:
>> z/OS 2.1 was available September 2013. It was not supported on a z990
>> or a Z890. Support for those were dropped in 2014 and 2016 z/OS 2.2 was 
>> available in 2015. It was not supported on a z9. z9 EC was supported until 
>> 2017. z9 BC was supported until 2019.
>> z/OS 2.3 was available in 2017. It was not supported on a z196 (support 
>> dropped 2021) or z114 (supported until 2022).
>> z/OS 2.5 was available in 2021. It was not supported on a zEC12 or a zBC12. 
>> AFAIK, support for those have not yet been dropped.
>>
>> I'm not sure, but I think that what IBM has done is to support a level of 
>> hardware until the last release of z/OS that is supported on that machine is 
>> off support, or at least withdrawn from marketing. Not to support a new 
>> release of the operating system on all processors that are currently 
>> supported at GA.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Marchant
>>
>> On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 01:01:21 -0500, Brian Westerman 
>> brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com wrote:
>>
>>> So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
>>> officially out? If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1. . . .
>>
>> -
>> - For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO
>> IBM-MAIN
> --
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> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN 
> 
>   [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci

Re: z/OSMF

[David Spiegel]

Hi Terri,
If you have a 14 inch monitor, it is time to invest in your career and 
get a proper monitor (e.g. 27 inch minimum).
If you're seeing 3-4 lines, it also means that you're probably using 
Model 2 emulation (24x80). Model 2 for a SysProg wastes a lot of time 
with unnecessarily scrolling, plus your context is not useful.
You should be running (minimum) Model 4 emulation (43x80) and preferably 
3290 emulation (62x160).


Regards,
David

On 2023-07-02 19:50, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

Besides having ServerPac back, I want no background checking down.

I want batch jobs built to allocate everything, IF a newbie want to trust the 
process awesome.  But in my 38 years, opps doesn’t cut it.

Again, just give me a switch.  Allow the scripts to build the batch jobs and I 
will verify everything exists, if a conflict arises in dataset names, flag them 
and I will resolve in batch.

Then too many headers, Tabs, etc, in workflows means you only see about 3-4 lines on 
a 14" monitor. I should not have to acquire a new monitor to run/see them with 
ease.

Again I hate, anything that runs remote to the lpar, it’s the first thing that 
doesn’t respond, besides using way too much CPU overall, just to screen flip.

Serverpac hardly ever got out of period 1, TSO.

Just a bad design overall

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
kekronbekron
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2023 11:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


In an attempt to steer this to a brainstorming thing...

What are the components of zOSMF, and what are the warts people have noticed?
Apart from the UI or that a UI itself exists.

Websphere Liberty,... what else?
What parts are tunable, what capabilities are needed, etc?


- KB

--- Original Message ---
On Saturday, July 1st, 2023 at 2:38 AM, Tom Marchant 
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:



I don't see why, and that wouldn't be consistent with what they have done in 
the past.
Some examples:
z/OS 2.1 was available September 2013. It was not supported on a z990
or a Z890. Support for those were dropped in 2014 and 2016 z/OS 2.2 was 
available in 2015. It was not supported on a z9. z9 EC was supported until 
2017. z9 BC was supported until 2019.
z/OS 2.3 was available in 2017. It was not supported on a z196 (support dropped 
2021) or z114 (supported until 2022).
z/OS 2.5 was available in 2021. It was not supported on a zEC12 or a zBC12. 
AFAIK, support for those have not yet been dropped.

I'm not sure, but I think that what IBM has done is to support a level of 
hardware until the last release of z/OS that is supported on that machine is 
off support, or at least withdrawn from marketing. Not to support a new release 
of the operating system on all processors that are currently supported at GA.

--
Tom Marchant

On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 01:01:21 -0500, Brian Westerman 
brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com wrote:


So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
officially out? If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1. . . .


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Re: z/OSMF

[Shaffer, Terri]

Besides having ServerPac back, I want no background checking down.

I want batch jobs built to allocate everything, IF a newbie want to trust the 
process awesome.  But in my 38 years, opps doesn’t cut it.

Again, just give me a switch.  Allow the scripts to build the batch jobs and I 
will verify everything exists, if a conflict arises in dataset names, flag them 
and I will resolve in batch.

Then too many headers, Tabs, etc, in workflows means you only see about 3-4 
lines on a 14" monitor. I should not have to acquire a new monitor to run/see 
them with ease.

Again I hate, anything that runs remote to the lpar, it’s the first thing that 
doesn’t respond, besides using way too much CPU overall, just to screen flip.

Serverpac hardly ever got out of period 1, TSO.

Just a bad design overall

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
kekronbekron
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2023 11:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


In an attempt to steer this to a brainstorming thing...

What are the components of zOSMF, and what are the warts people have noticed?
Apart from the UI or that a UI itself exists.

Websphere Liberty,... what else?
What parts are tunable, what capabilities are needed, etc?


- KB

--- Original Message ---
On Saturday, July 1st, 2023 at 2:38 AM, Tom Marchant 
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


> I don't see why, and that wouldn't be consistent with what they have done in 
> the past.
> Some examples:
> z/OS 2.1 was available September 2013. It was not supported on a z990
> or a Z890. Support for those were dropped in 2014 and 2016 z/OS 2.2 was 
> available in 2015. It was not supported on a z9. z9 EC was supported until 
> 2017. z9 BC was supported until 2019.
> z/OS 2.3 was available in 2017. It was not supported on a z196 (support 
> dropped 2021) or z114 (supported until 2022).
> z/OS 2.5 was available in 2021. It was not supported on a zEC12 or a zBC12. 
> AFAIK, support for those have not yet been dropped.
>
> I'm not sure, but I think that what IBM has done is to support a level of 
> hardware until the last release of z/OS that is supported on that machine is 
> off support, or at least withdrawn from marketing. Not to support a new 
> release of the operating system on all processors that are currently 
> supported at GA.
>
> --
> Tom Marchant
>
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 01:01:21 -0500, Brian Westerman 
> brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com wrote:
>
> > So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
> > officially out? If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1. . . .
>
>
> --
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Re: z/OSMF

[Edward Gould]

> On Jun 27, 2023, at 6:43 AM, rpinion865 
> <042a019916dd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Remember the days when you could purchase mainframe software?  In 1987  we 
> had UCC-1, UCC-7, and UCC-11.  And we had just gotten ACF2, which had just 
> been acquired by Uccel.  The instructional material at the ACF2 class still 
> had SKK printed on it.  Then CA came along and bought Uccel, within a very 
> short time of the Uccel acquisition of ACF2.  That's when they started 
> offering their Unipacks to replace the original Uccel purchase contracts.  
> 
> In my humble opinion, that's where mainframe software pricing took a turn for 
> the worse. 
> 
> 
> SNIP—
I used to (50+) years ago worked in a downtown of a large mid west city.

Several times a year the sysprogs would get together at a SHARE/GUIDE  and with 
no vendor around the true stories would come out.

Having said that and the time span involved (40 years) One of the companies 
upgraded the CPU on one of their systems. IIRC it wasn’t drastic but I think it 
was one model number, They were a large DB2 user, They received a bill from the 
DB2 vendor (not IBM) for around 1 MILLION dollars, That was sticker shock. 
About 6 months later another vendor sent them a bill for 2 Million dollars. The 
two vendors are still around today. Then the race started to the bottom of the 
river. The second vendor was CA (sorry I was never a DB2 person as I do not 
recall the name of the vendor. IMO, CA2 night was quite at the front end of 
over charging. Those two vendors started the death nell. Can anyone remember 
the major DB2 player was?. BTW the company that owned the CPU moved to the 
suburbs and has been on the slow march to death ever since.
BTW at one time we had quite a few UCC products and the support  we got from 
them did not match the software price. We should have ditched them but I think 
the company I worked for was maybe trying to sell off the division and wanted 
to keep the costs down so as not to scare any buyers away, it was sold off, but 
not for another 20 or so years.

Minor story line here and my memory is iffy here. A person that used to work in 
my department founded(?) the DB2 company and was a multi-millionaire a few 
years after he left the company where we worked. I think that I may have been 
hired to replace him.

Ed

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Re: z/OSMF

[Brian Westerman]

Bummer,

However, this is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.  It's better to 
know, than to guess (or hope).  Do you know what the z14+ functions might be?

Brian

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Re: z/OSMF

[Peter Relson]

Brian W wrote:

So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
officially out?  If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1. . .


The conclusion expressed after the "If not" is not warranted.

Dropping of support for a machine is unrelated to what machine an operating 
system release might require (I do not have any knowledge of whether/when 
support is being dropped for z13s). And of course withdrawal from marketing is 
unrelated to dropping of support (aside from the fact that the former generally 
precedes the latter).

z/OS 3.1 requires z14 functions. It cannot be IPL'ed on a z13 of any flavor.

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design.


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Re: z/OSMF

[kekronbekron]

In an attempt to steer this to a brainstorming thing...

What are the components of zOSMF, and what are the warts people have noticed?
Apart from the UI or that a UI itself exists.

Websphere Liberty,... what else?
What parts are tunable, what capabilities are needed, etc?


- KB

--- Original Message ---
On Saturday, July 1st, 2023 at 2:38 AM, Tom Marchant 
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


> I don't see why, and that wouldn't be consistent with what they have done in 
> the past.
> Some examples:
> z/OS 2.1 was available September 2013. It was not supported on a z990 or a 
> Z890. Support for those were dropped in 2014 and 2016
> z/OS 2.2 was available in 2015. It was not supported on a z9. z9 EC was 
> supported until 2017. z9 BC was supported until 2019.
> z/OS 2.3 was available in 2017. It was not supported on a z196 (support 
> dropped 2021) or z114 (supported until 2022).
> z/OS 2.5 was available in 2021. It was not supported on a zEC12 or a zBC12. 
> AFAIK, support for those have not yet been dropped.
> 
> I'm not sure, but I think that what IBM has done is to support a level of 
> hardware until the last release of z/OS that is supported on that machine is 
> off support, or at least withdrawn from marketing. Not to support a new 
> release of the operating system on all processors that are currently 
> supported at GA.
> 
> --
> Tom Marchant
> 
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 01:01:21 -0500, Brian Westerman 
> brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com wrote:
> 
> > So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
> > officially out? If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1. . . .
> 
> 
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Re: z/OSMF

[Tom Marchant]

I don't see why, and that wouldn't be consistent with what they have done in 
the past.
Some examples:
z/OS 2.1 was available September 2013. It was not supported on a z990 or a 
Z890. Support for those were dropped in 2014 and 2016
z/OS 2.2 was available in 2015. It was not supported on a z9. z9 EC was 
supported until 2017. z9 BC was supported until 2019.
z/OS 2.3 was available in 2017. It was not supported on a z196 (support dropped 
2021) or z114 (supported until 2022).
z/OS 2.5 was available in 2021. It was not supported on a zEC12 or a zBC12. 
AFAIK, support for those have not yet been dropped.

I'm not sure, but I think that what IBM has done is to support a level of 
hardware until the last release of z/OS that is supported on that machine is 
off support, or at least withdrawn from marketing. Not to support a new release 
of the operating system on all processors that are currently supported at GA.

-- 
Tom Marchant

On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 01:01:21 -0500, Brian Westerman 
 wrote:

>So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
>officially out?  If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1. . . .

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Re: z/OSMF

[Allan Staller]

Classification: Confidential

According to the Preview Announcement, z/OS 3.1 requires a minimum of a z/14.

https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/announcements/preview-zos-31-ai-infused-operating-system-next-generation-computing#highx__title__1

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Brian Westerman
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2023 1:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
officially out?  If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1, as well as 
products like z/OSMF (which are required in order to install z/OS) should be 
able to be run on the z13s, isn't that correct?

Obviously the 4341 and z/OS 2.5 (or z/OS at all) were not compatible, and the 
4341 was discontinued (hardware and software support) before z/OS was announced 
or made available.

In this case, the z13s is still supported by IBM, and is supported by z/OS.

I guess what I am looking for is an official statement that the z13s is not 
supported by z/OS 3.1.  All I currently see is that the z13s isn't listed on 
the installation list for z/OS 3.1, but as it's no longer marketed, that makes 
sense.  That doesn't mean that the z13s can't 'run" z/OS 3.1.

Can the z13s "run" z/OS 3.1?  All I need is a simple yes or no.  Or even a 
"maybe" depending on extended lifecycle support.

If it is 100% not going to run z/OS 3.1, then I would like to be able to tell 
the managers of the 5 sites that are running them that they will need to "move 
up" or "migrate off".  I can't do that without a definitive response.

Brian

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Re: z/OSMF

[P H]

https://www.ibm.com/common/ssi/ShowDoc.wss?docURL=/common/ssi/rep_ca/3/897/ENUS223-013/index.html=en#keyprx

In the Key Requirements section z13 or z13s isn't listed for z/OS 3.1!

Regards

Parwez Hamid​

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Brian Westerman 
Sent: 30 June 2023 07:01
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
officially out?  If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1, as well as 
products like z/OSMF (which are required in order to install z/OS) should be 
able to be run on the z13s, isn't that correct?

Obviously the 4341 and z/OS 2.5 (or z/OS at all) were not compatible, and the 
4341 was discontinued (hardware and software support) before z/OS was announced 
or made available.

In this case, the z13s is still supported by IBM, and is supported by z/OS.

I guess what I am looking for is an official statement that the z13s is not 
supported by z/OS 3.1.  All I currently see is that the z13s isn't listed on 
the installation list for z/OS 3.1, but as it's no longer marketed, that makes 
sense.  That doesn't mean that the z13s can't 'run" z/OS 3.1.

Can the z13s "run" z/OS 3.1?  All I need is a simple yes or no.  Or even a 
"maybe" depending on extended lifecycle support.

If it is 100% not going to run z/OS 3.1, then I would like to be able to tell 
the managers of the 5 sites that are running them that they will need to "move 
up" or "migrate off".  I can't do that without a definitive response.

Brian

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Re: z/OSMF

[Brian Westerman]

So is IBM definitely dropping support for the z13s BEFORE z/OS 3.1 is 
officially out?  If not, then it should be supported by z/OS 3.1, as well as 
products like z/OSMF (which are required in order to install z/OS) should be 
able to be run on the z13s, isn't that correct?

Obviously the 4341 and z/OS 2.5 (or z/OS at all) were not compatible, and the 
4341 was discontinued (hardware and software support) before z/OS was announced 
or made available.  

In this case, the z13s is still supported by IBM, and is supported by z/OS.  

I guess what I am looking for is an official statement that the z13s is not 
supported by z/OS 3.1.  All I currently see is that the z13s isn't listed on 
the installation list for z/OS 3.1, but as it's no longer marketed, that makes 
sense.  That doesn't mean that the z13s can't 'run" z/OS 3.1.  

Can the z13s "run" z/OS 3.1?  All I need is a simple yes or no.  Or even a 
"maybe" depending on extended lifecycle support.  

If it is 100% not going to run z/OS 3.1, then I would like to be able to tell 
the managers of the 5 sites that are running them that they will need to "move 
up" or "migrate off".  I can't do that without a definitive response.

Brian

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

[Bill Johnson]

I worked for 15+ companies in 45 years. All mainframe. Most are no longer in 
business or merged, bought by bigger companies. Packard Electric, (Delphi) 
Revco, Phar Mor, Microfocus, Mellon Bank, to name a few. Does that mean the 
Mainframe is fading? Of course not. Other companies that picked up that 
business are now processing it on the mainframe. CVS/Walgreens/RiteAid are 
doing Revco’s old business. When I was starting my career, there were 15-20 
airlines that ran mainframes. Now via consolidation, there are what 4-5 main 
players.

The mainframe isn’t fading and to claim it is, is silly.

These numbers tell the real truth.

Mainframes may seem like a thing of the past, but for the most part, IBM's 
customer base isn't going anywhere. IBM mainframes are in use at 45 of the 
world's top 50 banks, eight of the top 10 insurers, seven of the top 10 
retailers, and eight of the top 10 telecommunication companies.

And as has been talked about previously, new mainframe buyers are real as well 
as more transactions are being processed.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, June 29, 2023, 10:59 AM, Pommier, Rex  
wrote:

Yes, gradual fade.  So what if the mainframes supposedly process more 
transactions today than at any point in history?  Just looking at the small 
number of people/sites on IBM-Main as an example, compared to the number that 
was here even 5 years ago.  How many mainframes have been shut down that we've 
been made aware of here?  Look at Share membership.  IBM has lost the majority 
of their SMB sites over the years.  Over the course of my career I've primarily 
worked at 3 sites.  One no longer has a mainframe, the second and third sites 
are actively working at reducing their mainframe footprint with the idea of 
eventually getting off it.  Medium size cities that used to have 10-12 
mainframe sites are now down to 1-2.  As IBM's mainframe business gradually 
shrinks, they basically have 2 options - keep raising prices on the remainder, 
thus giving them more incentive to get off the mainframe or drop the level of 
support they provide to these customers in order to keep their profit margins 
up.  I'm not against a company making a profit but unless IBM can somehow stop 
the bleeding, the mainframe market will continue to shrink.  

And this will be my last post on the subject so as to not clutter up the list 
with ancillary bickering.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2023 8:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

Gradual fade? Mainframes process more transactions now that at any point in 
history. And will process more 10 years from now than today. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, June 28, 2023, 8:53 AM, Pommier, Rex  
wrote:

Unfortunately that (pricing) train left the station a long time ago.  For 
whatever reason IBM chose to keep the mainframe a niche product with fantastic 
I/O capabilities but a high price tag, thus ensuring its gradual fade.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Andrew Rowley
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2023 5:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

On 27/06/2023 11:35 pm, Pommier, Rex wrote:
> If a company is using a 20 MSU system and is forced to buy a 200 MSU system 
> because that's the smallest available, unless something drastic happens to 
> hardware AND software pricing, the company isn't going to be looking for 
> "what else can I put on this expensive and woefully underutilized machine", 
> they're going to be looking at "where can I move my 20 MSUs worth of 
> processing to get rid of this expensive machine".

Again, the assumption is that the pricing was adjusted so it was not more 
expensive.

200 MSU was just to pick a number. It probably should be higher. What is the 
speed of a desktop PC these days? I am guessing my 4 year old PC is around 
600-700 MSU equivalent? A Raspberry Pi about 40-60 MSU? And 4 or more cores 
makes a lot of problems go away.

It would be good if z/OS at the low end had kept up with the performance and 
price improvements in the rest of the industry.

--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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is strictly 

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

[Pommier, Rex]

Yes, gradual fade.  So what if the mainframes supposedly process more 
transactions today than at any point in history?  Just looking at the small 
number of people/sites on IBM-Main as an example, compared to the number that 
was here even 5 years ago.  How many mainframes have been shut down that we've 
been made aware of here?  Look at Share membership.  IBM has lost the majority 
of their SMB sites over the years.  Over the course of my career I've primarily 
worked at 3 sites.  One no longer has a mainframe, the second and third sites 
are actively working at reducing their mainframe footprint with the idea of 
eventually getting off it.  Medium size cities that used to have 10-12 
mainframe sites are now down to 1-2.  As IBM's mainframe business gradually 
shrinks, they basically have 2 options - keep raising prices on the remainder, 
thus giving them more incentive to get off the mainframe or drop the level of 
support they provide to these customers in order to keep their profit margins 
up.  I'm not against a company making a profit but unless IBM can somehow stop 
the bleeding, the mainframe market will continue to shrink.  

And this will be my last post on the subject so as to not clutter up the list 
with ancillary bickering.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2023 8:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

Gradual fade? Mainframes process more transactions now that at any point in 
history. And will process more 10 years from now than today. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, June 28, 2023, 8:53 AM, Pommier, Rex  
wrote:

Unfortunately that (pricing) train left the station a long time ago.  For 
whatever reason IBM chose to keep the mainframe a niche product with fantastic 
I/O capabilities but a high price tag, thus ensuring its gradual fade.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Andrew Rowley
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2023 5:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

On 27/06/2023 11:35 pm, Pommier, Rex wrote:
> If a company is using a 20 MSU system and is forced to buy a 200 MSU system 
> because that's the smallest available, unless something drastic happens to 
> hardware AND software pricing, the company isn't going to be looking for 
> "what else can I put on this expensive and woefully underutilized machine", 
> they're going to be looking at "where can I move my 20 MSUs worth of 
> processing to get rid of this expensive machine".

Again, the assumption is that the pricing was adjusted so it was not more 
expensive.

200 MSU was just to pick a number. It probably should be higher. What is the 
speed of a desktop PC these days? I am guessing my 4 year old PC is around 
600-700 MSU equivalent? A Raspberry Pi about 40-60 MSU? And 4 or more cores 
makes a lot of problems go away.

It would be good if z/OS at the low end had kept up with the performance and 
price improvements in the rest of the industry.

--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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is strictly prohi

Re: z/OSMF

[Timothy Sipples]

Brian Westerman replied:
>I think you are missing the point, why sell something and
>then before you sunset that box, make it so that you can't
>upgrade the software?  That's completely against IBM's
>original method of operation.

I'm not sure what you mean here by "sunset that box." IBM withdrew all z13s 
feature codes from marketing years ago. However, IBM continues to provide 
support, maintenance, and repair services for IBM z13s servers, and IBM 
continues to support the vast bulk of its z/OS software product portfolio on 
IBM z13s servers. (Although sometimes there are functions within otherwise 
supported products that require a higher model machine.) There's currently no 
announced End of Service date for IBM z13s machines AFAIK.

IBM offered z/OS 2.5 with the classic installation option to all z/OS 
licensees, including licensees with small capacity IBM z13s machines, at no 
additional charge. IBM urged all such customers to place any such orders before 
the end of January, 2022. Lots of customers did exactly that (including many 
reading this forum), and they either have z/OS 2.5 installed now or they have 
it sitting on the shelf, ready to install. z/OS 2.5 is the last release of z/OS 
that can run on IBM z13 generation machines.

z/OS 2.5 is currently orderable and installable with the z/OSMF-based 
installation on all machines compatible with z/OS 2.5. The z/OSMF-based 
installation steps may run longer on certain capacity models, but it's still 
installable. CBPDO-based installation is also still available.

Over the past several decades of history IBM has eventually dropped software 
support for older models. z/OS 2.5 doesn't run on IBM 4341 machines, for 
example. Sometimes a model drop occurs at a version or release boundary, 
occasionally not. In the newer "continuous delivery" style of software delivery 
the machine model drops between version/release boundaries are getting somewhat 
more common, industry-wide. But in this case IBM hasn't even dropped support 
for z/OS on IBM z13s machines, not yet. (z/OS 3.1 will.) All IBM did was drop 
one installation method in z/OS 2.5 and only for orders placed after January, 
2022. IBM gave advance notice it would. IBM offered delivery of z/OS 2.5 with 
that installation option to any licensee that cared to order it by January, 
2022, and at no additional charge.

—
Timothy Sipples
Senior Architect
Digital Assets, Industry Solutions, and Cybersecurity
IBM zSystems/LinuxONE, Asia-Pacific
sipp...@sg.ibm.com


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

[Bill Johnson]

Hardly a niche market.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/07/20/this-crucial-part-of-ibm-grew-by-77/?source=globeandmail_source=globeandmail_medium=feed_campaign=article




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, June 28, 2023, 8:53 AM, Pommier, Rex  
wrote:

Unfortunately that (pricing) train left the station a long time ago.  For 
whatever reason IBM chose to keep the mainframe a niche product with fantastic 
I/O capabilities but a high price tag, thus ensuring its gradual fade.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Andrew Rowley
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2023 5:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

On 27/06/2023 11:35 pm, Pommier, Rex wrote:
> If a company is using a 20 MSU system and is forced to buy a 200 MSU system 
> because that's the smallest available, unless something drastic happens to 
> hardware AND software pricing, the company isn't going to be looking for 
> "what else can I put on this expensive and woefully underutilized machine", 
> they're going to be looking at "where can I move my 20 MSUs worth of 
> processing to get rid of this expensive machine".

Again, the assumption is that the pricing was adjusted so it was not more 
expensive.

200 MSU was just to pick a number. It probably should be higher. What is the 
speed of a desktop PC these days? I am guessing my 4 year old PC is around 
600-700 MSU equivalent? A Raspberry Pi about 40-60 MSU? And 4 or more cores 
makes a lot of problems go away.

It would be good if z/OS at the low end had kept up with the performance and 
price improvements in the rest of the industry.

--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

[Bill Johnson]

Gradual fade? Mainframes process more transactions now that at any point in 
history. And will process more 10 years from now than today. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, June 28, 2023, 8:53 AM, Pommier, Rex  
wrote:

Unfortunately that (pricing) train left the station a long time ago.  For 
whatever reason IBM chose to keep the mainframe a niche product with fantastic 
I/O capabilities but a high price tag, thus ensuring its gradual fade.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Andrew Rowley
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2023 5:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

On 27/06/2023 11:35 pm, Pommier, Rex wrote:
> If a company is using a 20 MSU system and is forced to buy a 200 MSU system 
> because that's the smallest available, unless something drastic happens to 
> hardware AND software pricing, the company isn't going to be looking for 
> "what else can I put on this expensive and woefully underutilized machine", 
> they're going to be looking at "where can I move my 20 MSUs worth of 
> processing to get rid of this expensive machine".

Again, the assumption is that the pricing was adjusted so it was not more 
expensive.

200 MSU was just to pick a number. It probably should be higher. What is the 
speed of a desktop PC these days? I am guessing my 4 year old PC is around 
600-700 MSU equivalent? A Raspberry Pi about 40-60 MSU? And 4 or more cores 
makes a lot of problems go away.

It would be good if z/OS at the low end had kept up with the performance and 
price improvements in the rest of the industry.

--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

--
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

[Pommier, Rex]

Brian, 

Not to be picky, but what point is being missed?  Who are you responding to?  
This thread took off in a couple different directions and there is no context 
to your comment.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Brian Westerman
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2023 1:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

I think you are missing the point, why sell something and then before you 
sunset that box, make it so that you can't upgrade the software?  That's 
completely against IBM's original method of operation.

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

[Pommier, Rex]

Tom, 

Sorry I wasn't clear.  These processes don't run simultaneously.  We run 2 
production LPARs and at times during our nightly batch cycle we have a process 
on one or the other LPARs that will consume an entire processor for a period of 
time - anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour or longer.  Watching my SDSF-like 
screen or monitor, I can see that a single TCB is consuming 100% (or close 
thereof) of one of the engines.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Marchant
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2023 6:40 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 13:35:47 +, Pommier, Rex  
wrote:

>We're running a 2-way, 316 MSU machine and my business customers would squawk 
>loudly if I had to move our workload to a 4 way with no more horsepower.  We 
>have several single-threaded processes that run that would be woefully 
>impacted if the per-engine thruput was halved.
>
You are running several processes that each need more than 50% of a CP, and 
your CEC has two CPs?

How much CPU do these processes use?

--
Tom Marchant

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

[Pommier, Rex]

Unfortunately that (pricing) train left the station a long time ago.  For 
whatever reason IBM chose to keep the mainframe a niche product with fantastic 
I/O capabilities but a high price tag, thus ensuring its gradual fade.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Andrew Rowley
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2023 5:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: z/OSMF

On 27/06/2023 11:35 pm, Pommier, Rex wrote:
> If a company is using a 20 MSU system and is forced to buy a 200 MSU system 
> because that's the smallest available, unless something drastic happens to 
> hardware AND software pricing, the company isn't going to be looking for 
> "what else can I put on this expensive and woefully underutilized machine", 
> they're going to be looking at "where can I move my 20 MSUs worth of 
> processing to get rid of this expensive machine".

Again, the assumption is that the pricing was adjusted so it was not more 
expensive.

200 MSU was just to pick a number. It probably should be higher. What is the 
speed of a desktop PC these days? I am guessing my 4 year old PC is around 
600-700 MSU equivalent? A Raspberry Pi about 40-60 MSU? And 4 or more cores 
makes a lot of problems go away.

It would be good if z/OS at the low end had kept up with the performance and 
price improvements in the rest of the industry.

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Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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