subject:"z\/OSMF"

Yet another answer to my own post

I stripped out everything to do with the Software instances and deployments 
related to my Zos25 install.

I defined an instance  for my new deployment
This instance was modeled on my ZOS V2R4 install. The source for the instance 
is the downloaded ShopZ ZFS.
The Dataset names had to be trimmed due to assumptions and defaults prefixed to 
the Target dataset names.   The names were modified to match what they will 
have to be when I continue to use the indirect cataloging in my active system.
Volumes and Storage Classes were assigned to local standard locations for DASD 
placement.

Catalog Selection was NOT a chance to select a Catalog for these new to be 
created datasets.Job generations then fail with IZU9702E messages saying 
that the dataset in question is ALREADY in that Master Catalog that I am 
forcing you to use.

I am assuming that this is because I am NOT creating a new master of any kind 
(temporary or other).  This is because I actually read my choices for 
configuring the objectives of the install.  and the 'no new catalog' option 
where you IPL using your old indirect catalog entries from your existing master 
catalog described exactly what I think I want to do.   

Do I want to change the objectives to create a new catalog where all the 
building would be done?   If so, what the heck is the 'Existing' catalog 
objective for??

Time to step back and wait for a flash of brilliance to come to me.   
Mandatory cooling off period starts...  NOW

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

As always Marna - THANK YOU very much.  You are always a treasure trove of 
information.

I am ready to hand the reigns of the temporary HLQ manipulations back to 
z/OSMF, but am having some difficulties during Job Generation.
When I removed my 'unneeded' personal HLQ --- I got 800+ errors that 'you 
cannot define something that it already in the catalog'

I have tried 'juggling' catalog definitions without success.   
The Deployment is configured to use the 'Existing' catalogs and not create a 
new master because I wish to IPL from my standard master cat in use today.
Software Management detects that the final names already exist in the current 
master cat and stops.

Unfortunately - An aggressive flush of datasets has deleted datasets that 
belonged to the base Software Instance.   This has left me unable to define a 
workable Deployment at all.  Too many 'missing' datasets that are assumed to be 
there from the Software Management unzips from the Portable Software Instance 
downloaded  from my Software order.
I need to go back to Square Zero and re-Install my downloaded Portable Software 
Instance.

I am looking for a Rip and Replace set of steps that will take me back to 
creating my Software environment from my downloaded ShopZ order.
How do you totally clean the installation and its deployments back to that 
level?My latest hurdle is the DDDEFs in my previously manipulated GLOBAL 
and TARGET zones point to DSNs that no longer exist and cannot be recovered.
I have tried configuring to 'Use a New Master'  without success..   I have yet 
to see anywhere for me to influence or select the old SSA values.

It is always difficult to recover from failed, canned procedures that have 
failed spectacularly.

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

2023-09-07 Thread Marna WALLE

Tom,
The job to remove the temporary catalog alias (aka SSA) and rename the data 
sets to prepare for an IPL is done during the z/OSMF Deployment  (not in the 
Post Deploy Workflow), and is found in the Software Management provided job, 
IZUD05RN - that's the name that my generated job was, and it was job #5 out of 
6 jobs that were provided for my configuration.  

It looks like this in Software Management.  Sorry for the horrible formatting, 
but you can see it with the "5" below:

-
4   IZUD04UZUnzip Data Sets: Extract the target software instance 
data sets from the portable software instance archive files, into the location 
defined by the deployment configuration, using temporary and unique data set 
names.AQFT
Complete 
MWALLEZOJOB20193CC 0256 U
5   IZUD05RNRename Data Sets: Rename the target software instance 
data sets from their temporary and unique names to their true names defined by 
the deployment configuration, and update catalog entries for the data sets as 
needed.  AQFT
Complete
MWALLEZOJOB26729CC 0008 U
6   IZUD06UCUpdate CSI Data Sets: Update the entries within the 
SMP/E CSI data sets to reflect the target software instance zone names, data 
set names and locations, and UNIX directory prefixes.  AQFT
Complete
MWALLEZOJOB28159CC  U


In that 5th job, I can see that the rename is happening like this.  Note 
"ZS25VBNM" is my temporary catalog alias (SSA):

 LISTCAT -
ENTRY(ZS25VBMW.SYS1.LINKLIB) -
CATALOG(MWALLE.VB25.MCAT)
  IF LASTCC = 0 THEN DO
 ALTER -
   ZS25VBMW.SYS1.LINKLIB -
   NEWNAME(SYS1.LINKLIB) -
   CATALOG(MWALLE.VB25.MCAT)
  END


What might be happening, is that during the configuration of your deployment, 
you entered in the names of the final data sets WITH a temporary high level 
qualifier yourself. If that is so, then you have indicated that that 
"temporary" HLQ is the final name you wanted.  This is something that we've 
seen experienced CustomPac people do, as they assume they need to handle the 
temporary HLQ themselves which is not the case in z/OSMF.  You can see that 
z/OSMF will be adding(and removing) the temporary HLQ itself, if you look at 
the Configuration sample for the data set, so that you will know you don't have 
to handle the temporary HLQ yourself.

Here's the spot in Configure Deployment of Software Management, in Modify where 
you can see that (see NEWMCAT below as the sample temporary HLQ), and that your 
name should not attempt to add a temporary HLQ:

Enter the data set name or qualifiers to use for the selected data sets.
Common data set qualifiers: Example data set name:
From:   SYS1.LINKLIBSYS1.LINKLIB
To: 
SYS1.LINKLIB
SYS1.LINKLIB

NEWMCAT.SYS1.LINKLIB( Target data set name with temporary catalog alias ) 
z/OSMF automatically adds the temporary catalog alias to reference the target 
data set from the driving system catalog. "NEWMCAT" is the default temporary 
catalog alias and can be updated in the Catalogs step of the Deployment 
Configuration.
-

If indeed, you did add your "own temporary" final name to the data sets, you 
will need to go back and remove it.  You can either go back into the same 
deployment and do that to backtrack, or if that Deployment is Complete you can 
start a new Deployment. 

For a Completed Deployment, you can copy that configuration to do another 
Deployment which is nice as the pre-defined configuration is reused.  It is 
under Actions -> Copy.  It will be grayed out if if the Deployment is not 
Complete.   I duplicate my Deployments often to save time, and only change 
small things, like the target system, or volumes.  

-Marna WALLE
z/OS System Install and Upgrade
IBM Poughkeepsie

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

And the battle continues.   Ignorance is taking the hits.

I am obviously ignorant to the design of the approved 'how to' way to do this.

I tried removing the CB. prefix on my dataset names.   800+ error messages 
later, I found that the Lion cannot digest that.  It regurgitates every name 
that already exists in my current master catalog.   Totally understandable and 
I sympathized.
I returned the CB prefix and moved on. 
The Catalog step  had identified CB as a 'New' prefix that requires a 'New' 
master catalog to be created. I had done the 'use existing master' option 
during setup, but I guess I am ignorant to what that truly means.

Nothing I try can tell the Lion to use my current existing Master catalog to 
hold the 'temporary'  CB catalog entries.

Do I need a new USER cat for the CB entries???  (WILDLY guessing here).   
Would this be someplace for the Lion to play with its food while the physical 
datasets are created on the volumes?

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

I always feel foolish when I reply to my own posts, but here goes.

For those of you playing the home game and watching the gladiatorial combat 
between "Software Management" and the "Grizzled Veteran"  here is todays battle.

I think I see where I have not toed the line with the 'new' method of 
Installing things. I went "old school" and modified my dataset names to 
prepend a HLQ of CB (I still do not know where that came from - me or z/OSMF).  
 What I did not know is that my worthy opponent (which I will now call the 
Lion) had secret strategies that it was going to deploy.   The Lion took my 
well crafted and meaningful dataset names and suffixed them with '.#'.

The old ServerPac dialogs generated jobs would remove the HLQ on the physical 
volume and make the names match what was indirectly cataloged in the system 
being upgraded.   For example  HLQ.SYS1.LINKLIB cataloged on the newly created 
SYSRES would be 'zapped' to the name SYS1.LINKLIB which has been indirectly 
cataloged to ** for many many years and will NOT be changed.   A HLQ.xxx 
catalog entry would be created so that JCL could be used to select which one 
you were trying to modify. My review of these new jobs is not showing me 
where any catalog ALIAS entries are being created (but I could have missed 
them).
This left us with the option of IPLing the old release,  then new release for 
testing, then back to old release to get on with our work.


To adopt this new suffixing approach, I now have to lose a week of work in 
order to rename the data sets in such a way that the suffixing process 'might' 
work.
Then back to my local usermods again for re-APPLY.

This sort of thing has been happening to me for years.  I make a choice for 
local needs  (like software upgrade vs software replacement in the old 
ServerPacs)  only to find out that two days later the generated jobs will not 
do what I wanted to do or what I thought they would do.   Square One!!!
Like an Abbot and Costello routing,   THIRD BASE!!!.   All convoluted 
difficulties mean Square One.   I just have not taking to drinking the IBM 
Cool-Aid and will stray into the world of independent thought.

What I would love to do is 'Copy' my current Deployment as a baseline from 
which to start over.I cannot find a 'Copy Deployment' under z/OSMF --- Only 
'Add'.Welcome to the next battle trying to tame this Lion.

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

2023-09-07 Thread Gadi Ben-Avi

It is created as part of the workflow jobs. 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Longfellow
Sent: יום ה 07 ספטמבר 2023 12:57
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

I am very familiar with that Job --- I have run it under ServerPac for a dozen 
times over the past 20-30 years.

What I cannot find now is how to get z/OSMF to generate that JOB for the 
current software order.
I have not been able to find it in the z/OSMF GUI interface.

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

I am very familiar with that Job --- I have run it under ServerPac for a dozen 
times over the past 20-30 years.

What I cannot find now is how to get z/OSMF to generate that JOB for the 
current software order.
I have not been able to find it in the z/OSMF GUI interface.

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Re: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

2023-09-06 Thread Gadi Ben-Avi

Hi,
We just went through the same thing.
There is a job that renames the libraries and then creates an alias or path for 
each one.
Once that is run, the catalogs you created for the new system should have the 
original dataset names (SYS1.NUCLUES, SYS1.LPALIB etc.) and you should be able 
to IPL from that. 
The aliases remain on the driving system, so you can access the datasets from 
there if you want to make changes if the IPL fails for some reason. 

Gadi


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Tom 
Longfellow <03e29b607131-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2023 19:21
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: z/OSMF and the Old Timer

I have had a few minor battles with z/OSMF over the years, so my view may be a 
bit biased.

My new z/OS 2.5 install and upgrade is in progress.   I have been going through 
all of the apps and workflows.  All of my local usermods from V2R4 and before 
are applied.
I am a ServerPac veteran and am now pretty pleased with myself on my progress 
so far.
I *thought*  I was approaching the point of some initial IPLs and then BAM, all 
I see is a brick wall.

Back in the old days, there were ServerPac jobs to remove the HLQ used during 
the creation of my new sysres.
I have been through the 'Software Management' and 'Software Upgrade' and all 
the Workflows (that I am now REQUIRED to use)  without any success in finding 
the task/job that would Change HLQ.SYS1.LINKLIB to the good old fashioned 
SYS1.LINKLIB.

Anybody have the secret Point-Click-Edit-Drag-Drop-Whatever  sequence that can 
close out my Deployment to a testable state?

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z/OSMF and the Old Timer

2023-09-06 Thread Tom Longfellow

I have had a few minor battles with z/OSMF over the years, so my view may be a 
bit biased.

My new z/OS 2.5 install and upgrade is in progress.   I have been going through 
all of the apps and workflows.  All of my local usermods from V2R4 and before 
are applied.
I am a ServerPac veteran and am now pretty pleased with myself on my progress 
so far.
I *thought*  I was approaching the point of some initial IPLs and then BAM, all 
I see is a brick wall.

Back in the old days, there were ServerPac jobs to remove the HLQ used during 
the creation of my new sysres.
I have been through the 'Software Management' and 'Software Upgrade' and all 
the Workflows (that I am now REQUIRED to use)  without any success in finding 
the task/job that would Change HLQ.SYS1.LINKLIB to the good old fashioned 
SYS1.LINKLIB.

Anybody have the secret Point-Click-Edit-Drag-Drop-Whatever  sequence that can 
close out my Deployment to a testable state?

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Re: z/OSMF

2023-08-18 Thread Steely.Mark

Thanks - -  The IZUPRMxx reference information - fixed one of the issue's 
This fixed the 2nd issue - that's was what I needed the 
UNIX directory name - missed it the first time around. Still trying to get 
familiar with it. 

Thanks for all the assistance. 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Kurt Quackenbush
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2023 1:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF



CAUTION! EXTERNAL SENDER! STOP, ASSESS, AND VERIFY Do you know this person? 
Were you expecting this email? If not, report it using the Report Phishing 
Button!

> ...  I am trying to download a software instance and z/OSMF has generated the 
> JCL.
> The JCL generated has some values that are not correct - some path's 
> that were generated either have my ID inserted with the ID being 
> uppercase - our path names are lowercase. Also one path it generated 
> had a different ID then mine. I must have missed a step somewhere - where do 
> I update the values that I would like the system to use ?

You didn't say specifically which values in the JCL are the issue, but from the 
Portable Software Instances page clicking the Add... -> From Download Server 
action opens a short wizard to generate the download JCL.  On step 1 of the 
wizard, at the bottom of the page, you enter the UNIX directory into which you 
want the files to be downloaded.  This value is used on the SMPNTS DD statement 
in the generated job.  z/OSMF derives an initial value for this field from the 
directory you used last time and the name for the Portable Software Instance 
you specify at the top of the page.  What is the value on that page?  Does it 
contain your desired directory, with the correct case?  Is it the SMPNTS DD 
statement you're having trouble with?

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

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Re: z/OSMF

2023-08-18 Thread Kurt Quackenbush

> ...  I am trying to download a software instance and z/OSMF has generated the 
> JCL.
> The JCL generated has some values that are not correct - some path's that 
> were generated either 
> have my ID inserted with the ID being uppercase - our path names are 
> lowercase. Also one path it 
> generated had a different ID then mine. I must have missed a step somewhere - 
> where do I update 
> the values that I would like the system to use ?

You didn't say specifically which values in the JCL are the issue, but from the 
Portable Software Instances page clicking the Add... -> From Download Server 
action opens a short wizard to generate the download JCL.  On step 1 of the 
wizard, at the bottom of the page, you enter the UNIX directory into which you 
want the files to be downloaded.  This value is used on the SMPNTS DD statement 
in the generated job.  z/OSMF derives an initial value for this field from the 
directory you used last time and the name for the Portable Software Instance 
you specify at the top of the page.  What is the value on that page?  Does it 
contain your desired directory, with the correct case?  Is it the SMPNTS DD 
statement you're having trouble with?

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

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Re: z/OSMF

2023-08-18 Thread Sri h Kolusu

≫ some path's that were generated either have my ID inserted with the ID being 
uppercase - our path names are lowercase.

Did you check this?

Enter values in uppercase, lowercase, or mixed case. The system converts input 
to uppercase, unless the values are enclosed in single quotation marks, which 
are processed without altering the case.

https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.4.0?topic=system-izuprmxx-reference-information

Thanks,
 Kolusu



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z/OSMF

2023-08-18 Thread Steely.Mark

We are z/OS V2.4.  I am trying to download a software instance and z/OSMF has 
generated the JCL. The JCL generated has some values that are not correct - 
some path's that were generated either have my ID inserted with the ID being 
uppercase - our path names are lowercase. Also one path it generated had a 
different ID then mine. I must have missed a step somewhere - where do I update 
the values that I would like the system to use ?

Thank You

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Re: Keyboards [WAS: z/OSMF]

2023-08-07 Thread Seymour J Metz

I really liked the converged (122 key) keyboard with a cursor diamond. Does 
anybody make one with an extra key for [ and ]?

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 3:44 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Keyboards [WAS: z/OSMF]

I'm with you on that; I no longer lust after the 12-over/12-under function-key 
layout.  (The rest of the board looks like what I'm used to now anyway.)  When 
I talk about the advantages of the 3270 keyboard, I'm really talking about the 
tactile feedback, by which my fingers instantly knew when I hadn't finished the 
stroke, and went back by themselves without my conscious thought to do it again 
and right this time.  The layout I don't care about as much.

(And anyway I've converted to the Dvorak layout.  Who looks at keycaps these 
days?  We don' need no steenking keycaps!)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Q: Isaac Asimov said he resented people rating NIGHTFALL as his best work 
because he did it so young. Does it bother you that so many of us view ENDER'S 
GAME as yours?
Orson Scott Card: Not at all. I hope someday every family in America is riven 
with conflict over which of my books is best. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Smith
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 14:41

I think I went down the same mental path as you.  Nevertheless, these do claim 
to be clicky-keyboards similar to 3270s, and if done well, $149 is reasonable.  
It would be really cool to have original cast iron 3278 keyboards rewired for 
PCs, but there would be a lot of hurdles to producing them, andI can't guess 
what they'd cost.

The keyboard layout does seem to be the main selling point; but as it's been 30 
years since I used a 3278 keyboard, I think I've gotten used to the PC layout.  
I do still remap right-CTRL to ENTER, so there's that.

--- On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 2:13 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:
> Wait, I just googled "3270 keyboards USB" and found this: 
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1qxPV4RS940Jj4LfO0pmLyjDg6mkt37vKxIn3u4uF4jImDbeFloQDm8lElHhTtQzTqjMkFgbJSiY-RKzPz6bRb5GIgejyzTAv6wygIrY-iCDTQyDMJe2xlr-r254Nn6s5GolqPocqhEe_CNzjn3jAAsgtUpOkGOLZRjIYNbBT20offAKl6m6a9GKjV1dm_B_SOy6dGfSZnrMHnYWs4lQk_c2MX39J9ktnBR17kIzrT1FcURqZff1F9mHwxj0v_tCCqUJGyNTda59GUxkIS1sraod3mV6ZQAuS8xR0_t-92e380jJoLpj-6KNa1LPXJXLI-4LrwQESF7wbrzq3-sVfdbcJWyfjOYqWeudkakxv__Wn-G8qRjhu__dOa0KEu5-nIjL3-vYShpTiyru90sp3oBRhETgnA12mHVDcpAEIkHs/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.twindata.com%2F3270keyboard.htm
>
> But it says "3270-style keyboard", which I'll bet refers to the
> layout, not the hardware.
>
> Hm, or not.  "By providing the same layout and heavy duty quality of
> original IBM terminals, users will instantly be familiar with the
> layout of their new thin client or PC device.  In addition, they will
> also have the same "clicky"  touch and feel of the original IBM
> tactile feedback keyboards."  Ok, maybe.

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Re: Keyboards [WAS: z/OSMF]

2023-08-07 Thread Seymour J Metz

I can't resist: <https://www.pinterest.com/pin/514747432403434674/>?

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 3:54 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Keyboards [WAS: z/OSMF]

LOL, isn't there an xkcd about that?  I do some remapping too.  My numeric 
keypad, especially, takes on a few of the PF keys, erase-EOF, HOME and a few 
others.

Right, this one I think: https://xkcd.com/1806/.  It stuck in my head because 
whenever a desktop support jock has to connect to my PC to help me out, I have 
to explain to him that I'm using Dvorak, and how to switch back and forth.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Faith is acting like God told you the truth. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 15:09

I remap , etc.

Makes other people have problems when they try to use my keyboard.   :)

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Re: Keyboards [WAS: z/OSMF]

LOL, isn't there an xkcd about that?  I do some remapping too.  My numeric 
keypad, especially, takes on a few of the PF keys, erase-EOF, HOME and a few 
others.

Right, this one I think: https://xkcd.com/1806/.  It stuck in my head because 
whenever a desktop support jock has to connect to my PC to help me out, I have 
to explain to him that I'm using Dvorak, and how to switch back and forth.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Faith is acting like God told you the truth. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 15:09

I remap , etc.

Makes other people have problems when they try to use my keyboard.   :)

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Re: Keyboards [WAS: z/OSMF]

I'm with you on that; I no longer lust after the 12-over/12-under function-key 
layout.  (The rest of the board looks like what I'm used to now anyway.)  When 
I talk about the advantages of the 3270 keyboard, I'm really talking about the 
tactile feedback, by which my fingers instantly knew when I hadn't finished the 
stroke, and went back by themselves without my conscious thought to do it again 
and right this time.  The layout I don't care about as much.

(And anyway I've converted to the Dvorak layout.  Who looks at keycaps these 
days?  We don' need no steenking keycaps!)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Q: Isaac Asimov said he resented people rating NIGHTFALL as his best work 
because he did it so young. Does it bother you that so many of us view ENDER'S 
GAME as yours? 
Orson Scott Card: Not at all. I hope someday every family in America is riven 
with conflict over which of my books is best. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Smith
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 14:41

I think I went down the same mental path as you.  Nevertheless, these do claim 
to be clicky-keyboards similar to 3270s, and if done well, $149 is reasonable.  
It would be really cool to have original cast iron 3278 keyboards rewired for 
PCs, but there would be a lot of hurdles to producing them, andI can't guess 
what they'd cost.

The keyboard layout does seem to be the main selling point; but as it's been 30 
years since I used a 3278 keyboard, I think I've gotten used to the PC layout.  
I do still remap right-CTRL to ENTER, so there's that.

--- On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 2:13 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:
> Wait, I just googled "3270 keyboards USB" and found this: 
> https://www.twindata.com/3270keyboard.htm
>
> But it says "3270-style keyboard", which I'll bet refers to the 
> layout, not the hardware.
>
> Hm, or not.  "By providing the same layout and heavy duty quality of 
> original IBM terminals, users will instantly be familiar with the 
> layout of their new thin client or PC device.  In addition, they will 
> also have the same "clicky"  touch and feel of the original IBM 
> tactile feedback keyboards."  Ok, maybe.

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Re: Keyboards [WAS: z/OSMF]

2023-08-07 Thread Steve Thompson


I remap , etc.

Makes other people have problems when they try to use my 
keyboard.   :)


Steve Thompson

On 8/7/2023 2:40 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

I think I went down the same mental path as you.  Nevertheless, these do
claim to be clicky-keyboards similar to 3270s, and if done well, $149 is
reasonable.  It would be really cool to have original cast iron 3278
keyboards rewired for PCs, but there would be a lot of hurdles to producing
them, andI can't guess what they'd cost.

The keyboard layout does seem to be the main selling point; but as it's
been 30 years since I used a 3278 keyboard, I think I've gotten used to the
PC layout.  I do still remap right-CTRL to ENTER, so there's that.

sas

On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 2:13 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:


Wait, I just googled "3270 keyboards USB" and found this:

https://www.twindata.com/3270keyboard.htm

But it says "3270-style keyboard", which I'll bet refers to the layout,
not the hardware.

Hm, or not.  "By providing the same layout and heavy duty quality of
original IBM terminals, users will instantly be familiar with the layout of
their new thin client or PC device.  In addition, they will also have the
same "clicky"  touch and feel of the original IBM tactile feedback
keyboards."  Ok, maybe.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313



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Re: Keyboards [WAS: z/OSMF]

2023-08-07 Thread Steve Smith

I think I went down the same mental path as you.  Nevertheless, these do
claim to be clicky-keyboards similar to 3270s, and if done well, $149 is
reasonable.  It would be really cool to have original cast iron 3278
keyboards rewired for PCs, but there would be a lot of hurdles to producing
them, andI can't guess what they'd cost.

The keyboard layout does seem to be the main selling point; but as it's
been 30 years since I used a 3278 keyboard, I think I've gotten used to the
PC layout.  I do still remap right-CTRL to ENTER, so there's that.

sas

On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 2:13 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:

> Wait, I just googled "3270 keyboards USB" and found this:
>
> https://www.twindata.com/3270keyboard.htm
>
> But it says "3270-style keyboard", which I'll bet refers to the layout,
> not the hardware.
>
> Hm, or not.  "By providing the same layout and heavy duty quality of
> original IBM terminals, users will instantly be familiar with the layout of
> their new thin client or PC device.  In addition, they will also have the
> same "clicky"  touch and feel of the original IBM tactile feedback
> keyboards."  Ok, maybe.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
>

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Re: Keyboards [WAS: z/OSMF]

Wait, I just googled "3270 keyboards USB" and found this:

https://www.twindata.com/3270keyboard.htm

But it says "3270-style keyboard", which I'll bet refers to the layout, not the 
hardware.

Hm, or not.  "By providing the same layout and heavy duty quality of original 
IBM terminals, users will instantly be familiar with the layout of their new 
thin client or PC device.  In addition, they will also have the same "clicky"  
touch and feel of the original IBM tactile feedback keyboards."  Ok, maybe.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Capitalism without bankruptcy is like Christianity without hell.  -Frank 
Borman, CEO, Eastern Airlines */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 13:57

I think they said the price for one (indicating quantity discounts available) 
was US$149.

--- On 8/7/2023 1:16 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> I shudder to think of the cost, but yes, I'm interested at least enough to 
> enquire...?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Steve Thompson
> Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 11:03
>
> Just got a call this morning about 3270 keyboards with USB connections. They 
> are now in stock.
>
> Thought I'd let you all know if any of you are interested in having a 3270 
> type keyboard for your programming use.

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Re: Keyboards [WAS: z/OSMF]

2023-08-07 Thread Steve Thompson

I think they said the price for one (indicating quantity 
discounts available) was US$149.



Steve Thompson


On 8/7/2023 1:16 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

I shudder to think of the cost, but yes, I'm interested at least enough to 
enquire...?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Well brought-up people have always regarded the tumbril and the scaffold as places for 
one's best clothes and best manners.  -C S Lewis, "De Futilitate" */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 11:03

Just got a call this morning about 3270 keyboards with USB connections. They 
are now in stock.

Thought I'd let you all know if any of you are interested in having a 3270 type 
keyboard for your programming use.

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Re: Keyboards [WAS: z/OSMF]

I shudder to think of the cost, but yes, I'm interested at least enough to 
enquire...?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Well brought-up people have always regarded the tumbril and the scaffold as 
places for one's best clothes and best manners.  -C S Lewis, "De Futilitate" */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 11:03

Just got a call this morning about 3270 keyboards with USB connections. They 
are now in stock.

Thought I'd let you all know if any of you are interested in having a 3270 type 
keyboard for your programming use.

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Keyboards [WAS: z/OSMF]

2023-08-07 Thread Steve Thompson

Just got a call this morning about 3270 keyboards with USB
connections. They are now in stock.

Thought I'd let you all know if any of you are interested in
having a 3270 type keyboard for your programming use.

Steve Thompson

On 7/4/2023 4:54 PM, Mike Schwab wrote:

https://www.twindata.com/keyboards/twindatakeyboards.htm 5250 / 3270
keyboards w PS/2 or USB connector.

IBM 3270 APL converted to USB.
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/1394625

On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 3:39 PM rpinion865
<042a019916dd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

Don't remember the manufacturer, I want the actual 3270 keyboard with the USB
connect.

Sent from Proton Mail mobile

Original Message
On Jul 4, 2023, 3:53 PM, billogden wrote:

Interesting discussion on screen sizes, keyboards, etc. Many of us have various different opinions. My opinions have changed since the early days when some of us (the
"older" ones) used 2260s instead of 3270s. I am using a 21" screen at the moment, with three "windows" open on it. I would not want a larger screen and
perhaps would prefer a slightly smaller one. I prefer a size that does not require me to constantly move my head to focus on different parts of the screen. For 3270 emulation I
prefer 133 character width (and most of us probably agree on that) and at least 50 lines high (and this could vary somewhat). I find 17" laptop screens OK, but not great.
More important for me (because I work mostly with text) is having good character resolution. Perhaps because I as not as young as I was a few years ago, I find long periods with
crudely-formed characters to be more exhausting. Given a choice, I would say this is more important than the actual screen size. I am not fond of laptop keyboards --- IMO they
range from barely OK to poor. At the moment I am using an old PC AT keyboard (with the "round" adapter plug going to a converter to connect it to a USB port). It has the
numeric keypad (which I do not use) and has good "movement" of the keys that provides a positive feedback for an old guy like me. (The "real" 3270 terminals
had great keyboards!) I can deal with the red "mouse control" on IBM-designed laptop keyboards when needed, but I prefer a "real" mouse (with the center
"dial" function, if possible). I use the same glasses for reading books and for dealing with terminals -- I am lucky that they are fairly "weak" glasses. The
discussion about z/OSMF? One of these months I will need to spend some time with it. These days I mostly use a relatively slow machine for z/OS and the performance is not
attractive for z/OSMF. Bill Ogden -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email
to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-11 Thread Wayne Bickerdike

The slash was an or symbol. Codeset anybody?

On Wed, Jul 12, 2023 at 8:35 AM Phil Smith III  wrote:

> Wayne Bickerdike wrote:
> *Was it Sterling Software/Platinum?*
>
> Heh. Different metals, different companies-but both wound up as part of CA
> eventually.
>
>
>
>
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-- 
Wayne V. Bickerdike

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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-11 Thread Phil Smith III

Wayne Bickerdike wrote:
*Was it Sterling Software/Platinum?*

Heh. Different metals, different companies-but both wound up as part of CA 
eventually.




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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-11 Thread Mike Shaw

Platinum is right. We used to carry Platinum Software DB2 utility msgs in
the MVS/QuickRef DB.

Mike Shaw
Chicago-Soft, Ltd.

On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 4:29 PM Wayne Bickerdike  wrote:

> *Can anyone remember the major DB2 player was?*
>
>
> *On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 8:26 AM Edward Gould
> <04bcc43af339-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu
> <04bcc43af339-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>> wrote:*
>
> *Was it Sterling Software/Platinum?*
>
> --
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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-11 Thread Wayne Bickerdike

*Can anyone remember the major DB2 player was?*


*On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 8:26 AM Edward Gould
<04bcc43af339-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu
<04bcc43af339-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>> wrote:*

*Was it Sterling Software/Platinum?*

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Re: OT: RE: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-05 Thread Jeremy Nicoll

On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 18:25, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Yes, but is every Scots dialect intelligible to every native Scots 
> speaker, 

I doubt it; the dialects spoken by people in Shetland and Orkney
(the latter right now considering a return to Norwegian rule!)
are substantially different from that spoken in lowland Scotland.

See: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-66090102

Also, very many people who would consider themselves Scots,
but not speakers of Scots, speak mainly English with greater or
lesser amounts of Scots vocab intermixed.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: OT: RE: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-05 Thread Seymour J Metz

Yes, but is every Scots dialect intelligible to every native Scots speaker, or 
are there mutually unintelligible regional dialects. Think Cockney versus 
Oxford or Boston, MA versus Augusta, GA.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll [jn.ls.mfrm...@letterboxes.org]
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 11:34 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OT: RE: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 14:27, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Aggie derives from "agricultural school"; I assure you that the English
> of, e.g.,Australia, New Zealand, UK, is just as opaque to us.
>
> Does Scotland have English terms that are understood in some regions
> but not all?

Well, we have terms in Scots (which isn't English) which are commonly used
in sentences with English terms around them.

Two short useful articles:
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1r9qPuoqLqtf3IYZ0Zxlppc7IPF2YAqokhEHj3SNsux6RRnxwuL94yaqUqP54peAhFhhR5zCFrxD5RXFKezvCn7pbltnIdxBzW55cweuNZ8Tb22XqKe7LjKGAHoiRr1tyyzggmtmsSKLPrpOe0R9hO8J_EGta5XQ0KInY4Yc6K4BzBJm_gap0_897esGAEdBMwUIPzN65BDOUnjyQQ3ER5qmf6TCFzQg3AmHrHr8RH6TrZPww3tY6enTkvluBqkChFbSbgOzDnw9EPCrLvC3zBOpHUqPbBGbRM1dZmkwYJBYu57JakQSAbaAUB08xrBIU2k0HS2fmxlTH96kH84FhbRbtVfay0nn5r5hWhOH_5mvNzeOsIgPNU_vSuY8iu01vT6yzESkVZUqY9fxacI8oFwPmLL6W9I26q1Cwh_mCRlU/https%3A%2F%2Fdsl.ac.uk%2Fabout-scots%2Fwhat-is-scots%2F
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1sVgy4nXnfJIjFkEVlQ9XUkXsin-uQ6siFqpw6KIiowebvlp342haxE3ya83g4YjbPMM9Q29vt6Ddrp1JVtW0ssagt_zZS8h_WUlw2CABSHYu0mGqHHYqBse_ZIHOmrCsAIGTFpm4UfSbTDnWQvnOUEKjCXzkrDIt2Kz6G50TovDDo25qGJD2Mf9XtJ60-Ktu9rYwd_eUOZtWpEhtYk7HWzgKxiL3n2LBgTx8U0Imlr_Fl9cLPs-ELbtQK4YL4Pdx7-1ua3zOjKQPy-FiMgWo3QTKLXBWjCQEJ7QZU1If_mfbPtErZU0T6j2bf76g4JVXVkh95L2T86kwkVNrdAH6BRcAt0UhOIk_ywfsyGqXoot2WE6fp7dwAT4fDJplMJ9W_4Y3eGRiaTAEZtht2hiROthjpi1Sbg2O2z4F4nqj484/https%3A%2F%2Fdsl.ac.uk%2Fabout-scots%2Fa-language-or-a-dialect%2F

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-05 Thread allan winston

For the classic game, CBT file 269 has a version of the source program that
is 3191 lines long and includes the associated data files.  There is a
reference to there being the corresponding load module in CBT file 135 with
the name "PROGRAM".

Somewhere along the way, I seem to have downloaded a newer version of the
source that is 4691 lines long.  The comments state that it is version 4.
However, I failed to download the associated data files and no longer have
access to that system.

 Allan

On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:07 AM Mike Schwab  wrote:

> https://www.cbttape.org/cbtdowns.htm
> 5 results for Game, including 38 Klingon, 269 Adventure, and 2 groups?
>
> On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 9:21 AM David Spiegel
> <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Robert,
> > Is the source code available?
> > If yes, how does one get it?
> >
> > Thanks and regards,
> > David
> >
> > On 2023-07-05 09:17, Crawford Robert C (Contractor) wrote:
> > > In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was
> largely table driven so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To retrieve
> the "treasure," an Aggie Joke book, you had to find a bar of soap and throw
> it into the room at which point the Aggies would run out of the room
> enabling you to get the book.
> > >
> > > For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will
> be lost on 49/50ths of the US.
> > >
> > > Robert Crawford
> > > Abstract Evolutions LLC
> > > (210) 913-3822
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Pew, Curtis G
> > > Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:43 PM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF
> > >
> > > On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> > >
> > > I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.
> > >
> > >
> > > You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave
> Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of
> “ADVENTURE” as the system supported.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure
> > >
> > > Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that
> knowledge is now lost in the mists of time for me.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Curtis Pew
> > > ITS Campus Solutions
> > > curtis@austin.utexas.edu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> > >
> > > --
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> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>
>
>
> --
> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
>
> --
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Re: OT: RE: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-05 Thread Jeremy Nicoll

On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 14:27, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Aggie derives from "agricultural school"; I assure you that the English 
> of, e.g.,Australia, New Zealand, UK, is just as opaque to us.
>
> Does Scotland have English terms that are understood in some regions 
> but not all?

Well, we have terms in Scots (which isn't English) which are commonly used
in sentences with English terms around them.

Two short useful articles:
https://dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/what-is-scots/
https://dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/a-language-or-a-dialect/

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-05 Thread Mike Schwab

https://www.cbttape.org/cbtdowns.htm
5 results for Game, including 38 Klingon, 269 Adventure, and 2 groups?

On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 9:21 AM David Spiegel
<0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Robert,
> Is the source code available?
> If yes, how does one get it?
>
> Thanks and regards,
> David
>
> On 2023-07-05 09:17, Crawford Robert C (Contractor) wrote:
> > In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was largely 
> > table driven so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To retrieve the 
> > "treasure," an Aggie Joke book, you had to find a bar of soap and throw it 
> > into the room at which point the Aggies would run out of the room enabling 
> > you to get the book.
> >
> > For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will be 
> > lost on 49/50ths of the US.
> >
> > Robert Crawford
> > Abstract Evolutions LLC
> > (210) 913-3822
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> > Pew, Curtis G
> > Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:43 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF
> >
> > On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> >
> > I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.
> >
> >
> > You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
> > Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
> > “ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure
> >
> > Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that 
> > knowledge is now lost in the mists of time for me.
> >
> > --
> > Curtis Pew
> > ITS Campus Solutions
> > curtis@austin.utexas.edu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email 
> > to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>
> --
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-05 Thread Crawford Robert C (Contractor)

Sorry, that was a couple of jobs ago.  Wish I'd made a copy before I left.

We also had a text-based version of Star Trek that ran on CICS.  It was 
actually kind of boring so I eventually ended up blowing up the starbases.

Robert Crawford
Abstract Evolutions LLC
(210) 913-3822

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Spiegel
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 9:21 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

Hi Robert,
Is the source code available?
If yes, how does one get it?

Thanks and regards,
David

On 2023-07-05 09:17, Crawford Robert C (Contractor) wrote:
> In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was largely 
> table driven so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To retrieve the 
> "treasure," an Aggie Joke book, you had to find a bar of soap and throw it 
> into the room at which point the Aggies would run out of the room enabling 
> you to get the book.
>
> For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will be 
> lost on 49/50ths of the US.
>
> Robert Crawford
> Abstract Evolutions LLC
> (210) 913-3822
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Pew, Curtis G
> Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:43 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF
>
> On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.
>
>
> You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
> Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters 
> of “ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure
>
> Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
> is now lost in the mists of time for me.
>
> --
> Curtis Pew
> ITS Campus Solutions
> curtis@austin.utexas.edu
>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-05 Thread Tom Marchant

On Wed, 5 Jul 2023 08:52:41 -0500, Matthew Stitt  
wrote:

>My son got me a keyboard very much like the classic IBM Type "M" for Christmas 
>a few years ago.  It is USB attached and has the name "UNICOMP" on it.

I bought two Unicomp buckling-spring keyboards. The first one, purchased in 
2013 eventually failed, so I bought another in 2020. The quality on the newer 
one was considerably less than the older one. The buckling-spring keyboard has 
some travel after the connection is made (and heard and felt). Some of the keys 
in the newer one didn't have that extra travel. They bottomed out as the 
contact was made. For a few keys, they would sometimes bottom out without 
making contact at all. I sent it back (under warranty) and they improved it 
just enough to be usable. Still, there was an inconsistent feel, with some keys 
bottoming out sooner than others. I found it disconcerting, but I kept using it 
for another year until it failed just like the first one, with several keys not 
registering even though the spring buckled and the contact was apparently made. 
Just out of warranty. I gave up on them.

As for monitors, I have a 43 inch 4k TV that I use as a monitor. When we worked 
in the office, I had 2 24 inch 1080P monitors. The 4k monitor gives the same 
horizontal resolution as 2 1080P monitors, but on a single screen. As a bonus, 
it gives the same vertical resolution as two more 1080P monitors above the 
other two. At 43 inches the size of the pixels is a bit smaller than with 24 
inch monitors, but it works well for me. My 3270 sessions are set to 99 x 142. 

-- 
Tom Marchant

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-05 Thread David Spiegel


Hi Robert,
Is the source code available?
If yes, how does one get it?

Thanks and regards,
David

On 2023-07-05 09:17, Crawford Robert C (Contractor) wrote:

In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was largely table driven 
so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To retrieve the "treasure," an Aggie 
Joke book, you had to find a bar of soap and throw it into the room at which point the 
Aggies would run out of the room enabling you to get the book.

For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will be lost 
on 49/50ths of the US.

Robert Crawford
Abstract Evolutions LLC
(210) 913-3822

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:43 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.


You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--
Curtis Pew
ITS Campus Solutions
curtis@austin.utexas.edu




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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-05 Thread Matthew Stitt

My son got me a keyboard very much like the classic IBM Type "M" for Christmas 
a few years ago.  It is USB attached and has the name "UNICOMP" on it.

Matthew

On Tue, 4 Jul 2023 17:50:24 -0400, Bob Bridges  wrote:

>I said I always buy a "real" keyboard (and monitor, and trackball) to plug 
>into a laptop.  I have thought hard about spending real money on them, too, or 
>at least on the keyboard considering how much time I spend on mine.  But so 
>far I've gone the other way.  About once a year I spill a Coke on my keyboard; 
>I just drop it in the bathtub, pick out a backup and get back to work.  No 
>lost time (or rather very little) and no tearing of hair.
>
>(I say I "drop it in the bathtub" because I have repeatedly read that 
>keyboards recover just fine when soaked and then allowed to dry out.  So far I 
>have never yet gotten a keyboard back this way, though; I always end up having 
>to throw it away.  Hints on a better way gratefully accepted.)
>
>Because of this, so far I buy El Cheapo brand.  I can't get El Cheapo for $10 
>any longer, but I think the last time I bought a few of them they were less 
>than $30.
>
>But, oh boy, do I miss tactile feedback!  IBM's software is famously hard to 
>use, but their hardware is reliably exceptional.  Heck, I liked the old 
>Selectrics, too.
>
>---
>Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
>/* There are trivial truths and great truths.  The opposite of a trivial truth 
>is plainly false.  The opposite of a great truth is also true.  -attributed by 
>Niels Bohr to his father */
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>Mike Schwab
>Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2023 16:54
>
>https://www.twindata.com/keyboards/twindatakeyboards.htm 5250 / 3270 keyboards 
>w PS/2 or USB connector.
>
>IBM 3270 APL converted to USB.
>https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/1394625
>
>On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 3:39 PM rpinion865 
><042a019916dd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Don't remember the manufacturer, I want the actual 3270 keyboard with the 
>> USB connect.
>>
>>  Original Message 
>> On Jul 4, 2023, 3:53 PM, billogden wrote:
>>
>> > Interesting discussion on screen sizes, keyboards, etc. Many of us 
>> > have various different opinions. My opinions have changed since the 
>> > early days when some of us (the "older" ones) used 2260s instead of 
>> > 3270s. I am using a 21" screen at the moment, with three "windows" 
>> > open on it. I would not want a larger screen and perhaps would 
>> > prefer a slightly smaller one. I prefer a size that does not require 
>> > me to constantly move my head to focus on different parts of the 
>> > screen. For 3270 emulation I prefer 133 character width (and most of 
>> > us probably agree on that) and at least 50 lines high (and this 
>> > could vary somewhat). I find 17" laptop screens OK, but not great. 
>> > More important for me (because I work mostly with text) is having 
>> > good character resolution. Perhaps because I as not as young as I 
>> > was a few years ago, I find long periods with crudely-formed 
>> > characters to be more exhausting. Given a choice, I would say this 
>> > is more important than the actual screen size. I am not fond of 
>> > laptop keyboards --- IMO they range from barely OK to poor. At the 
>> > moment I am using an old PC AT keyboard (with the "round" adapter 
>> > plug going to a converter to connect it to a USB port). It has the 
>> > numeric keypad (which I do not use) and has good "movement" of the 
>> > keys that provides a positive feedback for an old guy like me. (The 
>> > "real" 3270 terminals had great keyboards!) I can deal with the red 
>> > "mouse control" on IBM-designed laptop keyboards when needed, but I 
>> > prefer a "real" mouse (with the center "dial" function, if 
>> > possible). I use the same glasses for reading books and for dealing 
>> > with terminals -- I am lucky that they are fairly "weak" glasses. 
>> > The discussion about z/OSMF? One of these months I will need to 
>> > spend some time with it. These days I mostly use a relatively slow 
>> > machine for z/OS and the performance is not attractive for z/OSMF. 
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Re: Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

2023-07-05 Thread Walt Farrell

There are a number of hits that seem relevant when I do a search for "android 
version of dosbox", and once you have dosbox installed you should have access 
to a bunch of old DOS-based text games, including versions of Colossal Cave, I 
believe. I have not tried this personally, but I use dosbox on Windows and 
iPadOS for this purpose

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=android+version+of+dosbox=newext=v341-1=web

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OT: RE: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-05 Thread Seymour J Metz

Aggie derives from "agricultural school"; I assure you that the English of, 
e.g.,Australia, New Zealand, UK, is just as opaque to us.

Does Scotland have English terms that are understood in some regions but not 
all?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll [jn.ls.mfrm...@letterboxes.org]
Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 9:22 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 14:17, Crawford Robert C (Contractor) wrote:
> In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was
> largely table driven so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To
> retrieve the "treasure," an Aggie Joke book, you had to find a bar of
> soap and throw it into the room at which point the Aggies would run out
> of the room enabling you to get the book.
>
> For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will
> be lost on 49/50ths of the US.

Unless you're implying that an Aggie, whatever that is (someone from
Texas A? - which even I, in Scotland, have heard of) is averse to
soap, it's unclear.

We're not all in or from the US.

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-05 Thread Jeremy Nicoll

On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 14:17, Crawford Robert C (Contractor) wrote:
> In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was 
> largely table driven so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To 
> retrieve the "treasure," an Aggie Joke book, you had to find a bar of 
> soap and throw it into the room at which point the Aggies would run out 
> of the room enabling you to get the book.
>
> For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will 
> be lost on 49/50ths of the US. 

Unless you're implying that an Aggie, whatever that is (someone from 
Texas A? - which even I, in Scotland, have heard of) is averse to 
soap, it's unclear.

We're not all in or from the US.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-05 Thread Crawford Robert C (Contractor)

YES!!

Robert Crawford
Abstract Evolutions LLC
(210) 913-3822

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Eric Erickson
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 10:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

PLUGH!

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Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-05 Thread Crawford Robert C (Contractor)

In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1.  It was largely 
table driven so I added a room full of Texas Aggies.  To retrieve the 
"treasure," an Aggie Joke book, you had to find a bar of soap and throw it into 
the room at which point the Aggies would run out of the room enabling you to 
get the book.

For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will be lost 
on 49/50ths of the US. 

Robert Crawford
Abstract Evolutions LLC
(210) 913-3822

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:43 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF

On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.


You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--
Curtis Pew
ITS Campus Solutions
curtis@austin.utexas.edu




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Re: Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

2023-07-04 Thread Bob Bridges

I care enough to google it only if someone else cares enough to request that
I send them a copy.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Don't ask yourself what the world needs.  Ask yourself what makes you
come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have
come alive.  -Gil Bailie, quoted in "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Phil Smith III
Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2023 20:22

You can create a .apk from the app and send that. I have an old Euchre game
that's been discontinued and have moved it to several phones as I've
upgraded.

Google "find apk for an app" (without the quotes).

--- Bob Bridges wrote:
>I have a copy on my phone, but I haven't tried to run it recently.  If 
>it works, I wonder whether there's a way to send a copy, if anyone wants
it?

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Re: Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

2023-07-04 Thread Phil Smith III

Bob Bridges wrote:
>I have a copy on my phone, but I haven't tried to run it recently.  If it
>works, I wonder whether there's a way to send a copy, if anyone wants it?

You can create a .apk from the app and send that. I have an old Euchre game 
that's been discontinued and have moved it to several phones as I've upgraded.

Google "find apk for an app" (without the quotes).

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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-04 Thread Bob Bridges

I said I always buy a "real" keyboard (and monitor, and trackball) to plug into 
a laptop.  I have thought hard about spending real money on them, too, or at 
least on the keyboard considering how much time I spend on mine.  But so far 
I've gone the other way.  About once a year I spill a Coke on my keyboard; I 
just drop it in the bathtub, pick out a backup and get back to work.  No lost 
time (or rather very little) and no tearing of hair.

(I say I "drop it in the bathtub" because I have repeatedly read that keyboards 
recover just fine when soaked and then allowed to dry out.  So far I have never 
yet gotten a keyboard back this way, though; I always end up having to throw it 
away.  Hints on a better way gratefully accepted.)

Because of this, so far I buy El Cheapo brand.  I can't get El Cheapo for $10 
any longer, but I think the last time I bought a few of them they were less 
than $30.

But, oh boy, do I miss tactile feedback!  IBM's software is famously hard to 
use, but their hardware is reliably exceptional.  Heck, I liked the old 
Selectrics, too.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* There are trivial truths and great truths.  The opposite of a trivial truth 
is plainly false.  The opposite of a great truth is also true.  -attributed by 
Niels Bohr to his father */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2023 16:54

https://www.twindata.com/keyboards/twindatakeyboards.htm 5250 / 3270 keyboards 
w PS/2 or USB connector.

IBM 3270 APL converted to USB.
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/1394625

On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 3:39 PM rpinion865 
<042a019916dd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Don't remember the manufacturer, I want the actual 3270 keyboard with the USB 
> connect.
>
>  Original Message 
> On Jul 4, 2023, 3:53 PM, billogden wrote:
>
> > Interesting discussion on screen sizes, keyboards, etc. Many of us 
> > have various different opinions. My opinions have changed since the 
> > early days when some of us (the "older" ones) used 2260s instead of 
> > 3270s. I am using a 21" screen at the moment, with three "windows" 
> > open on it. I would not want a larger screen and perhaps would 
> > prefer a slightly smaller one. I prefer a size that does not require 
> > me to constantly move my head to focus on different parts of the 
> > screen. For 3270 emulation I prefer 133 character width (and most of 
> > us probably agree on that) and at least 50 lines high (and this 
> > could vary somewhat). I find 17" laptop screens OK, but not great. 
> > More important for me (because I work mostly with text) is having 
> > good character resolution. Perhaps because I as not as young as I 
> > was a few years ago, I find long periods with crudely-formed 
> > characters to be more exhausting. Given a choice, I would say this 
> > is more important than the actual screen size. I am not fond of 
> > laptop keyboards --- IMO they range from barely OK to poor. At the 
> > moment I am using an old PC AT keyboard (with the "round" adapter 
> > plug going to a converter to connect it to a USB port). It has the 
> > numeric keypad (which I do not use) and has good "movement" of the 
> > keys that provides a positive feedback for an old guy like me. (The 
> > "real" 3270 terminals had great keyboards!) I can deal with the red 
> > "mouse control" on IBM-designed laptop keyboards when needed, but I 
> > prefer a "real" mouse (with the center "dial" function, if 
> > possible). I use the same glasses for reading books and for dealing 
> > with terminals -- I am lucky that they are fairly "weak" glasses. 
> > The discussion about z/OSMF? One of these months I will need to 
> > spend some time with it. These days I mostly use a relatively slow 
> > machine for z/OS and the performance is not attractive for z/OSMF. 

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Re: Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

2023-07-04 Thread Bob Bridges

I have a copy on my phone, but I haven't tried to run it recently.  If it
works, I wonder whether there's a way to send a copy, if anyone wants it?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* even though our political rhetoric is more conservative today, power
keeps accumulating in Washington as steadily as if a Socialist Party were
the dominant electoral force.  Conservatives who think they have "won"
because Bill Clinton now adopts anti-government poses are like sheep
congratulating themselves because the wolf has been forced to wear sheep's
clothing.  It might be reassuring, if only the old wolf weren't still eating
so well.  -Joseph Sobran, 1998 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Phil Smith III
Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2023 13:09

Alas, the Colossal Cave seems to not be compatible with current Android
versions. I take that to mean the developer has lost interest. Too bad;
seemed like a nice blast from the past time-waster!

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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-04 Thread Mike Schwab

https://www.twindata.com/keyboards/twindatakeyboards.htm 5250 / 3270
keyboards w PS/2 or USB connector.

IBM 3270 APL converted to USB.
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/1394625

On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 3:39 PM rpinion865
<042a019916dd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Don't remember the manufacturer, I want the actual 3270 keyboard with the USB 
> connect.
>
> Sent from Proton Mail mobile
>
>  Original Message 
> On Jul 4, 2023, 3:53 PM, billogden wrote:
>
> > Interesting discussion on screen sizes, keyboards, etc. Many of us have 
> > various different opinions. My opinions have changed since the early days 
> > when some of us (the "older" ones) used 2260s instead of 3270s. I am using 
> > a 21" screen at the moment, with three "windows" open on it. I would not 
> > want a larger screen and perhaps would prefer a slightly smaller one. I 
> > prefer a size that does not require me to constantly move my head to focus 
> > on different parts of the screen. For 3270 emulation I prefer 133 character 
> > width (and most of us probably agree on that) and at least 50 lines high 
> > (and this could vary somewhat). I find 17" laptop screens OK, but not 
> > great. More important for me (because I work mostly with text) is having 
> > good character resolution. Perhaps because I as not as young as I was a few 
> > years ago, I find long periods with crudely-formed characters to be more 
> > exhausting. Given a choice, I would say this is more important than the 
> > actual screen size. I am not fond of laptop keyboards --- IMO they range 
> > from barely OK to poor. At the moment I am using an old PC AT keyboard 
> > (with the "round" adapter plug going to a converter to connect it to a USB 
> > port). It has the numeric keypad (which I do not use) and has good 
> > "movement" of the keys that provides a positive feedback for an old guy 
> > like me. (The "real" 3270 terminals had great keyboards!) I can deal with 
> > the red "mouse control" on IBM-designed laptop keyboards when needed, but I 
> > prefer a "real" mouse (with the center "dial" function, if possible). I use 
> > the same glasses for reading books and for dealing with terminals -- I am 
> > lucky that they are fairly "weak" glasses. The discussion about z/OSMF? One 
> > of these months I will need to spend some time with it. These days I mostly 
> > use a relatively slow machine for z/OS and the performance is not 
> > attractive for z/OSMF. Bill Ogden 
> > -- For 
> > IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
> > lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-04 Thread rpinion865

Don't remember the manufacturer, I want the actual 3270 keyboard with the USB 
connect.

Sent from Proton Mail mobile

 Original Message 
On Jul 4, 2023, 3:53 PM, billogden wrote:

> Interesting discussion on screen sizes, keyboards, etc. Many of us have 
> various different opinions. My opinions have changed since the early days 
> when some of us (the "older" ones) used 2260s instead of 3270s. I am using a 
> 21" screen at the moment, with three "windows" open on it. I would not want a 
> larger screen and perhaps would prefer a slightly smaller one. I prefer a 
> size that does not require me to constantly move my head to focus on 
> different parts of the screen. For 3270 emulation I prefer 133 character 
> width (and most of us probably agree on that) and at least 50 lines high (and 
> this could vary somewhat). I find 17" laptop screens OK, but not great. More 
> important for me (because I work mostly with text) is having good character 
> resolution. Perhaps because I as not as young as I was a few years ago, I 
> find long periods with crudely-formed characters to be more exhausting. Given 
> a choice, I would say this is more important than the actual screen size. I 
> am not fond of laptop keyboards --- IMO they range from barely OK to poor. At 
> the moment I am using an old PC AT keyboard (with the "round" adapter plug 
> going to a converter to connect it to a USB port). It has the numeric keypad 
> (which I do not use) and has good "movement" of the keys that provides a 
> positive feedback for an old guy like me. (The "real" 3270 terminals had 
> great keyboards!) I can deal with the red "mouse control" on IBM-designed 
> laptop keyboards when needed, but I prefer a "real" mouse (with the center 
> "dial" function, if possible). I use the same glasses for reading books and 
> for dealing with terminals -- I am lucky that they are fairly "weak" glasses. 
> The discussion about z/OSMF? One of these months I will need to spend some 
> time with it. These days I mostly use a relatively slow machine for z/OS and 
> the performance is not attractive for z/OSMF. Bill Ogden 
> -- For 
> IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
> lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-04 Thread billogden

Interesting discussion on screen sizes, keyboards, etc. Many of us have
various different opinions. My opinions have changed since the early days
when some of us (the "older" ones) used 2260s instead of 3270s.

I am using a 21" screen at the moment, with three "windows" open on it. I
would not want a larger screen and perhaps would prefer a slightly smaller
one. I prefer a size that does not require me to constantly move my head to
focus on different parts of the screen. For 3270 emulation I prefer 133
character width (and most of us probably agree on that) and at least 50
lines high (and this could vary somewhat). I find 17" laptop screens OK, but
not great.

More important for me (because I work mostly with text) is having good
character resolution. Perhaps because I as not as young as I was a few years
ago, I find long periods with crudely-formed characters to be more
exhausting. Given a choice, I would say this is more important than the
actual screen size.

I am not fond of laptop keyboards --- IMO they range from barely OK to poor.
At the moment I am using an old PC AT keyboard (with the "round" adapter
plug going to a converter to connect it to a USB port). It has the numeric
keypad (which I do not use) and has good "movement" of the keys that
provides a positive feedback for an old guy like me. (The "real" 3270
terminals had great keyboards!)

I can deal with the red "mouse control" on IBM-designed laptop keyboards
when needed, but I prefer a "real" mouse (with the center "dial" function,
if possible).

I use the same glasses for reading books and for dealing with terminals -- I
am lucky that they are fairly "weak" glasses.

The discussion about z/OSMF? One of these months I will need to spend some
time with it. These days I mostly use a relatively slow machine for z/OS and
the performance is not attractive for z/OSMF.

Bill Ogden 

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Re: Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

2023-07-04 Thread Laurence Chiu

With the ubiquity of Amazon devices it's likely the OP has one of these
(Echo, Dot etc.) Just say Alexa Play Colossal Cave and it will play the
game for you.

XYZZY :-)

On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 6:19 AM Mike Schwab  wrote:

> Install Linux on Android, 3270 emulator, Turkey 4-, then the games?
>
> On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 12:09 PM Phil Smith III  wrote:
> >
> > Y'all might think about changing subject lines occasionally. ;)
> >
> >
> >
> > Alas, the Colossal Cave seems to not be compatible with current Android
> versions. I take that to mean the developer has lost interest. Too bad;
> seemed like a nice blast from the past time-waster!
> >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>
>
> --
> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
>
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Re: Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

2023-07-04 Thread Mike Schwab

Install Linux on Android, 3270 emulator, Turkey 4-, then the games?

On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 12:09 PM Phil Smith III  wrote:
>
> Y'all might think about changing subject lines occasionally. ;)
>
>
>
> Alas, the Colossal Cave seems to not be compatible with current Android 
> versions. I take that to mean the developer has lost interest. Too bad; 
> seemed like a nice blast from the past time-waster!
>
>
> --
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Colossal Cave on Android (was: Re: z/OSMF)

2023-07-04 Thread Phil Smith III

Y'all might think about changing subject lines occasionally. ;)

 

Alas, the Colossal Cave seems to not be compatible with current Android 
versions. I take that to mean the developer has lost interest. Too bad; seemed 
like a nice blast from the past time-waster!


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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-04 Thread Tom Brennan


LOL haven't heard that since I was a kid watching a b/w TV.

On 7/4/2023 1:06 AM, rpinion865 wrote:

What about Pimento University, good old PU.

Sent from Proton Mail mobile

 Original Message 
On Jul 4, 2023, 7:32 AM, Tom Brennan wrote:


LOL On 7/3/2023 8:30 PM, Eric Erickson wrote: > PLUGH! > > 
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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-04 Thread rpinion865

What about Pimento University, good old PU.

Sent from Proton Mail mobile

 Original Message 
On Jul 4, 2023, 7:32 AM, Tom Brennan wrote:

> LOL On 7/3/2023 8:30 PM, Eric Erickson wrote: > PLUGH! > > 
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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-03 Thread Tom Brennan


LOL

On 7/3/2023 8:30 PM, Eric Erickson wrote:

PLUGH!

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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-03 Thread Tom Brennan


No, community college in Southern California, almost free at the time.

On 7/3/2023 8:15 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Yes, about that year for me too, and at a university.  Not A State U in 
Greensboro, NC, by any chance?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* What fills the eye fills the heart.  -Celtic proverb
We begin by coveting what we see every day.  -Hannibal Lecter in "Silence of the 
Lambs"
I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes.  -Psalms 101:3 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 21:08

Same here, ADVEN on a DEC 10 running TOPS-10, around 1979.  One college instructor told 
us to play it and said, "Let them play games, and that will get them 
interested."

--- On 7/3/2023 12:05 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out the 
whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it since 
then.


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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-03 Thread Eric Erickson

PLUGH!

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Re: z/OSMF

Yes, about that year for me too, and at a university.  Not A State U in 
Greensboro, NC, by any chance?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* What fills the eye fills the heart.  -Celtic proverb
We begin by coveting what we see every day.  -Hannibal Lecter in "Silence of 
the Lambs"
I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes.  -Psalms 101:3 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 21:08

Same here, ADVEN on a DEC 10 running TOPS-10, around 1979.  One college 
instructor told us to play it and said, "Let them play games, and that will get 
them interested."

--- On 7/3/2023 12:05 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
> 36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out 
> the whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it 
> since then.

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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-03 Thread Tom Brennan

Same here, ADVEN on a DEC 10 running TOPS-10, around 1979.  One college 
instructor told us to play it and said, "Let them play games, and that 
will get them interested."


On 7/3/2023 12:05 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:

Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out the 
whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it since 
then.

I well remember struggling to figure out the puzzle of the dragon.  THROW AXE; "The axe glances 
harmlessly off the dragon's scales"  KILL DRAGON; "With what?  Your bare hands?"  FEED DRAGON; 
"There's nothing here it wants to eat (except possibly you)."  After some days I gave up and peeked 
over another player's shoulder while she worked her way casually through the parts of the maze she already 
understood.

Two heads are definitely better than one in such games.  A friend and I were both puzzled 
in the same part of the cavern.  I saw a lump of coal in the corner and was instantly 
sure that it could be turned into diamond, so when I ran across the thing that looked 
like a washing machine I figured I'd found the right tool for it; but I couldn't figure 
out how to make it work.  There was a coin slot, but it didn't seem interested in my 
coins.  Meanwhile David had very easily understood how to make the "washing 
machine" work, but he couldn't figure out what it was for.  It wasn't until we 
talked about it that we got the whole picture.

Later we collaborated on Zork, with similarly productive results.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Men acquire a particular quality by constantly acting a particular way... 
you become just by performing just actions, temperate by performing temperate 
actions, brave by performing brave actions.  -Aristotle */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:43

You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--- On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.

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Re: z/OSMF

The version that I saw was table driven; it was half a century ago, but I 
vaguel recall a response of "You've got to be kidding", but I may be confusing 
that with the response to "throw troll".


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 5:59 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

I once spent a pleasurable few days hacking (or rather trying to hack)
Colossal Cave's "magic mode".  The DEC-10 machine at the college I worked at
back then had very little security; I could  a program and then
examine the machine code at leisure.  I got quite a few steps into the
rather lengthy process of establishing myself as a "wizard", but didn't
finish before I ended up doing something else - taking another job somewhere
else, I think it was, but I don't remember for sure.

And yes, experimenting with various strategies in a complicated game is
often more fun than just playing it.  Once I discovered the application of
statistics to "games theory", I began to think it'd be fun to work on that.
But that was before I became a coder, which still keeps me interested.

Out of curiosity, did the game know what to do with "eat bird"?  I guess if
they were doing their job, the writers needed to match every verb with every
object and invent a result, just to satisfy people like you.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* When the omniscient God asks you a question, it is not because He is
seeking information.  -from "The Final Quest" by Rick Joyner */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 17:53

I always found writing games to be more interesting than playing them, and
will run experiments rather than concentrating on winning. An example was
when I wondered what Adventure would do with absud actions such as "eat
bird" or "throw troll".

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Re: z/OSMF

I once spent a pleasurable few days hacking (or rather trying to hack)
Colossal Cave's "magic mode".  The DEC-10 machine at the college I worked at
back then had very little security; I could  a program and then
examine the machine code at leisure.  I got quite a few steps into the
rather lengthy process of establishing myself as a "wizard", but didn't
finish before I ended up doing something else - taking another job somewhere
else, I think it was, but I don't remember for sure.

And yes, experimenting with various strategies in a complicated game is
often more fun than just playing it.  Once I discovered the application of
statistics to "games theory", I began to think it'd be fun to work on that.
But that was before I became a coder, which still keeps me interested.

Out of curiosity, did the game know what to do with "eat bird"?  I guess if
they were doing their job, the writers needed to match every verb with every
object and invent a result, just to satisfy people like you.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* When the omniscient God asks you a question, it is not because He is
seeking information.  -from "The Final Quest" by Rick Joyner */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 17:53

I always found writing games to be more interesting than playing them, and
will run experiments rather than concentrating on winning. An example was
when I wondered what Adventure would do with absud actions such as "eat
bird" or "throw troll".

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Re: z/OSMF

I always found writing games to be more interesting than playing them, and will 
run experiments rather than concentrating on winning. An example was when I 
wondered what Adventure would do with absud actions such as "eat bird" or 
"throw troll".


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 3:05 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out the 
whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it since 
then.

I well remember struggling to figure out the puzzle of the dragon.  THROW AXE; 
"The axe glances harmlessly off the dragon's scales"  KILL DRAGON; "With what?  
Your bare hands?"  FEED DRAGON; "There's nothing here it wants to eat (except 
possibly you)."  After some days I gave up and peeked over another player's 
shoulder while she worked her way casually through the parts of the maze she 
already understood.

Two heads are definitely better than one in such games.  A friend and I were 
both puzzled in the same part of the cavern.  I saw a lump of coal in the 
corner and was instantly sure that it could be turned into diamond, so when I 
ran across the thing that looked like a washing machine I figured I'd found the 
right tool for it; but I couldn't figure out how to make it work.  There was a 
coin slot, but it didn't seem interested in my coins.  Meanwhile David had very 
easily understood how to make the "washing machine" work, but he couldn't 
figure out what it was for.  It wasn't until we talked about it that we got the 
whole picture.

Later we collaborated on Zork, with similarly productive results.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Men acquire a particular quality by constantly acting a particular way... 
you become just by performing just actions, temperate by performing temperate 
actions, brave by performing brave actions.  -Aristotle */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:43

You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--- On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.

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Re: z/OSMF

Ah, yes, I remember now, we invoked it using ADVEN on the PDP-10, which used 
36-bit words and 7-bit ASCII (hence 5 chars per word).  I, too, mapped out the 
whole thing back in the late '70s, and I too have forgotten most of it since 
then.

I well remember struggling to figure out the puzzle of the dragon.  THROW AXE; 
"The axe glances harmlessly off the dragon's scales"  KILL DRAGON; "With what?  
Your bare hands?"  FEED DRAGON; "There's nothing here it wants to eat (except 
possibly you)."  After some days I gave up and peeked over another player's 
shoulder while she worked her way casually through the parts of the maze she 
already understood.

Two heads are definitely better than one in such games.  A friend and I were 
both puzzled in the same part of the cavern.  I saw a lump of coal in the 
corner and was instantly sure that it could be turned into diamond, so when I 
ran across the thing that looked like a washing machine I figured I'd found the 
right tool for it; but I couldn't figure out how to make it work.  There was a 
coin slot, but it didn't seem interested in my coins.  Meanwhile David had very 
easily understood how to make the "washing machine" work, but he couldn't 
figure out what it was for.  It wasn't until we talked about it that we got the 
whole picture.

Later we collaborated on Zork, with similarly productive results.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Men acquire a particular quality by constantly acting a particular way... 
you become just by performing just actions, temperate by performing temperate 
actions, brave by performing brave actions.  -Aristotle */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:43

You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--- On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.

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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-03 Thread Pew, Curtis G

On Jul 3, 2023, at 1:26 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.


You’re talking about the same game. The full name was “Colossal Cave 
Adventure”, but the program file name was usually as many characters of 
“ADVENTURE” as the system supported. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure

Forty years ago I knew how to make it all the way through, but that knowledge 
is now lost in the mists of time for me.

--
Curtis Pew
ITS Campus Solutions
curtis@austin.utexas.edu




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Re: z/OSMF

I was thinking of the old text Adventure written in FORTRAN.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 2:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

LOL!  Did you know Colossal Cave is now available on Android?  I got myself a 
copy, intending to map it all out, but so far I'm still exploring the forest on 
the surface.  Haven't played it in decades.  Maybe I should introduce it to my 
grandchildren.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ERRATA:  For "errata" read "erratum". */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:01

ObNotAdventure You are in a maze of twisty keyboards, all different.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:58 PM

10-11 in laptops generally have 90% keyboard without numeric keyboard..
13-15 in laptops generally have 100% keyboard without numeric keyboard.
17 in + laptops generally have 100% keyboard with numeric keyboard.

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Re: z/OSMF

LOL!  Did you know Colossal Cave is now available on Android?  I got myself a 
copy, intending to map it all out, but so far I'm still exploring the forest on 
the surface.  Haven't played it in decades.  Maybe I should introduce it to my 
grandchildren.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ERRATA:  For "errata" read "erratum". */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 14:01

ObNotAdventure You are in a maze of twisty keyboards, all different.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:58 PM

10-11 in laptops generally have 90% keyboard without numeric keyboard..
13-15 in laptops generally have 100% keyboard without numeric keyboard.
17 in + laptops generally have 100% keyboard with numeric keyboard.

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Re: z/OSMF

ObNotAdventure You are in a maze of twisty keyboards, all different.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Mike Schwab 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 1:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

10-11 in laptops generally have 90% keyboard without numeric keyboard..
13-15 in laptops generally have 100% keyboard without numeric keyboard.
17 in + laptops generally have 100% keyboard with numeric keyboard.

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 10:40 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> People use to complain when I printed 88 lines per page (8 LPI instead of 6); 
> later on, with laser printers, I always used smaller fonts than my colleagues 
> liked.
>
> As for lacktops (sic), my biggest complaint is the keyboard. Why is it no 
> longer possible to buy a laptop with a standard AT or converged key layout, a 
> mini trackball and the keys at the front of the keyboard?
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Bob Bridges 
> Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 10:58 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OSMF
>
> Apparently I used to have really high-resolution eyesight, judging by the 
> comments of coworkers ("How can you read that?!"); not so much any more.  I 
> now keep around two types of reading classes, a weaker broad-eye set for 
> reading my monitor at arm's length and slightly stronger granny glasses for 
> reading up close.  Haven't tried bifocals yet.
>
> Or have I?  I now work at home, and sometimes at my desk I wear them both at 
> the same time rather than switching back and forth.  Then I stand up and get 
> the door, or join a Teams meeting, and someone is quizzical about the fact 
> that I seem to be wearing two sets of glasses at once, I having forgotten 
> about them.  It eventually dawned on me that with broad glasses covering my 
> field of vision and granny glasses at the bottom, that ~is~ bifocals in a 
> sense.  Maybe if Ben Franklin had tried that he wouldn't have invented real 
> bifocals.  (Somebody else probably would have, though.)
>
> But as my eyes deteriorate I'm going to have to go to an optometrist 
> eventually; no telling what he'll make me wear, and I suspect I'll wonder 
> then why I can magically see again and why in the world I waited so long.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling 
> exception, is composed of others.  -John Andrew Holmes */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> David Purdy
> Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 21:59
>
> Second best investment was bifocals cut for 18" monitor and closer for 
> reading. Ergonomics again...the neck was grateful and more relaxed at the end 
> of a day.
>
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--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: z/OSMF

2023-07-03 Thread Mike Schwab

10-11 in laptops generally have 90% keyboard without numeric keyboard..
13-15 in laptops generally have 100% keyboard without numeric keyboard.
17 in + laptops generally have 100% keyboard with numeric keyboard.

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 10:40 AM Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> People use to complain when I printed 88 lines per page (8 LPI instead of 6); 
> later on, with laser printers, I always used smaller fonts than my colleagues 
> liked.
>
> As for lacktops (sic), my biggest complaint is the keyboard. Why is it no 
> longer possible to buy a laptop with a standard AT or converged key layout, a 
> mini trackball and the keys at the front of the keyboard?
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Bob Bridges 
> Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 10:58 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: z/OSMF
>
> Apparently I used to have really high-resolution eyesight, judging by the 
> comments of coworkers ("How can you read that?!"); not so much any more.  I 
> now keep around two types of reading classes, a weaker broad-eye set for 
> reading my monitor at arm's length and slightly stronger granny glasses for 
> reading up close.  Haven't tried bifocals yet.
>
> Or have I?  I now work at home, and sometimes at my desk I wear them both at 
> the same time rather than switching back and forth.  Then I stand up and get 
> the door, or join a Teams meeting, and someone is quizzical about the fact 
> that I seem to be wearing two sets of glasses at once, I having forgotten 
> about them.  It eventually dawned on me that with broad glasses covering my 
> field of vision and granny glasses at the bottom, that ~is~ bifocals in a 
> sense.  Maybe if Ben Franklin had tried that he wouldn't have invented real 
> bifocals.  (Somebody else probably would have, though.)
>
> But as my eyes deteriorate I'm going to have to go to an optometrist 
> eventually; no telling what he'll make me wear, and I suspect I'll wonder 
> then why I can magically see again and why in the world I waited so long.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling 
> exception, is composed of others.  -John Andrew Holmes */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> David Purdy
> Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 21:59
>
> Second best investment was bifocals cut for 18" monitor and closer for 
> reading. Ergonomics again...the neck was grateful and more relaxed at the end 
> of a day.
>
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> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: z/OSMF

People use to complain when I printed 88 lines per page (8 LPI instead of 6); 
later on, with laser printers, I always used smaller fonts than my colleagues 
liked.

As for lacktops (sic), my biggest complaint is the keyboard. Why is it no 
longer possible to buy a laptop with a standard AT or converged key layout, a 
mini trackball and the keys at the front of the keyboard?


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2023 10:58 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OSMF

Apparently I used to have really high-resolution eyesight, judging by the 
comments of coworkers ("How can you read that?!"); not so much any more.  I now 
keep around two types of reading classes, a weaker broad-eye set for reading my 
monitor at arm's length and slightly stronger granny glasses for reading up 
close.  Haven't tried bifocals yet.

Or have I?  I now work at home, and sometimes at my desk I wear them both at 
the same time rather than switching back and forth.  Then I stand up and get 
the door, or join a Teams meeting, and someone is quizzical about the fact that 
I seem to be wearing two sets of glasses at once, I having forgotten about 
them.  It eventually dawned on me that with broad glasses covering my field of 
vision and granny glasses at the bottom, that ~is~ bifocals in a sense.  Maybe 
if Ben Franklin had tried that he wouldn't have invented real bifocals.  
(Somebody else probably would have, though.)

But as my eyes deteriorate I'm going to have to go to an optometrist 
eventually; no telling what he'll make me wear, and I suspect I'll wonder then 
why I can magically see again and why in the world I waited so long.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling 
exception, is composed of others.  -John Andrew Holmes */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
David Purdy
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2023 21:59

Second best investment was bifocals cut for 18" monitor and closer for reading. 
Ergonomics again...the neck was grateful and more relaxed at the end of a day.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: z/OSMF