Home Improvements / Politically Connect
Title: Netcenter News Feature Story Netscape: Your Home Improvement Resource Center by Bethrenae Triblle Your home is one of the most important and valuable parts of your life, whether you own or rent, whether you live alone or with others. Few experiences are as gratifying as finding the right home and creating an environment that satisfies both your functional needs and your aesthetic sensibilities. Wherever you are in the process, Netscape offers invaluable assistance with its Home Improvement and Real Estate channels. You'll find them both at netscape.com. As a pair, these channels comprise an easy-to-use, comprehensive and stable resource center for all your home related needs and inquiries. We're especially excited about our new Home Improvement channel, sponsored by such first-rate partners as iOwn.com and homestore.com. We hope you'll take the time to explore its five great departments -- Remodeling, Decorating, Lawn Garden, Home Electronics and Ask the Experts. We're sure you'll find something exciting! Still putting off that list of home repairs? Our How To Guides will lead you through all the phases of your chosen project, whether you're an enthusiastic novice or a seasoned veteran. Or do you have something bigger in mind a remodel perhaps? Maybe you're ready to turn that funky old bathroom into a luxurious, spa-like oasis. But what kind of tub should you get? What type of fixtures will look best? What should you expect to spend on them? Do you want textured walls or tile? Read the full story... NFL Season Preview Improve Your Small Biz Site Men's Biological Clocks Back to school sale Interview with B.B. King Taxes and Mutual Funds Adventure Vacations Electronics deals It's that time again, time to politically connect! Netscape is hosting both the Republican and Democratic conventions. Although time is running out (the Republican convention in Philadelphia closed August 3), we encourage you to participate in the concluding days of this important political time. Netscape provided great coverage of the Republican convention, and you can expect the same thoroughness and variety during the upcoming Democratic convention, August 14-17, from Staples Center in Los Angeles.
Re: imode far superior to wap
Not sure if it is relevant but i-mode is working on an end-to-end IP system now which will be deploy sometime next year. One of the original reason that i-mode didnt go pure IP is they couldnt get enough IP address for it (they designed i-mode to handle 6M users originally) and that is quite huge for APNIC. -James Seng Måns Nilsson wrote: "James P. Salsman" wrote: Apparently WAP is collapsing, both in terms of the general opinion of engineers and pundits, and now customer revenues. The Invisible Hand needs to slap some sense into the overly-greedy WAP Forum and their all-too-pervasive accomplices. Imode is far more widely used in Japan, as it is a very superior open standard that anyone can author and browse on any platform. I would ask that everyone in the IETF who cares about these things make an informal personal effort to try to get cellular carriers to migrate towards a solution like imode. Looking around a Google search on "imode" will pretty clearly show how it works. ... James, I doubt that you will find support from IETF folks for something that breaks the end-to-end model of IP (as Imode and WAP do as they are implemented today). I want to be able to ssh to my phone (or equivalent). Anything below that is just telephantisms. Regards, -- Måns NilssonDNS Technichian +46 709 174 840 NIC-SE +46 8 545 85 707MN1334-RIPE
Re: imode far superior to wap
James Seng wrote: Not sure if it is relevant but i-mode is working on an end-to-end IP system now which will be deploy sometime next year. Really? I am in Tokyo and follow wireless developments, especially i-mode, quite closely, and I've never heard of such a plan. Can you elaborate? Thanks, r e n -- ascii: r e n f i e l d octal: \162 \145 \156 \146 \151 \145 \154 \144 hex: \x72 \x65 \x6e \x66 \x69 \x65 \x6c \x64 morgan stanley dean witter japan e-business technologies | engineering and strategy S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
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Re: imode far superior to wap
On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, James Seng wrote: One of the original reason that i-mode didnt go pure IP is they couldnt get enough IP address for it (they designed i-mode to handle 6M users originally) and that is quite huge for APNIC. IPv6 has been around for quite some time now, do you know what plans they have to utilise this? -- steven
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RE: imode far superior to wap
Soon we need to have the interplanetary ip address allocation methods even for our planet (The work of Vinton cerf colleagues in NASA) for so many devices popping up. -Original Message- From: Steven Cotton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 12:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: imode far superior to wap On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, James Seng wrote: One of the original reason that i-mode didnt go pure IP is they couldnt get enough IP address for it (they designed i-mode to handle 6M users originally) and that is quite huge for APNIC. IPv6 has been around for quite some time now, do you know what plans they have to utilise this? -- steven
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Re: imode far superior to wap
In your previous mail you wrote: One of the original reason that i-mode didnt go pure IP is they couldnt get enough IP address for it (they designed i-mode to handle 6M users originally) and that is quite huge for APNIC. IPv6 has been around for quite some time now, do you know what plans they have to utilise this? = according to a IPv6 Forum internal mail: NTTDoCoMo confirmed that IPv6 will be used in their backbone starting Jan 2001 in a panel session with Fujitsu and the IPv6 Forum at WTC. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: imode far superior to wap
On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Barathy, RamaSubramaniam wrote: Soon we need to have the interplanetary ip address allocation methods even for our planet (The work of Vinton cerf colleagues in NASA) for so many devices popping up. This brings up some more problems I don't even want to start thinking about. Yet. -- steven
Re: imode far superior to wap
John; Renfield Kuroda wrote: James Seng wrote: Not sure if it is relevant but i-mode is working on an end-to-end IP system now which will be deploy sometime next year. Really? No. The guy from NTT Docomo who spoke at Adelaide mentioned it. I don't remember details, though. The detail you wrote in IETF ML on: Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 14:30:54 -0400 in Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] is : Didn't someone from DOCOMO present in Adelaide, and say they were : planning to go to running IP in the handsets? That's all. I guess you don't understand the phrase "end-to-end", the essence of the Internet. Masataka Ohta
Re: imode far superior to wap
Francis; = according to a IPv6 Forum internal mail: NTTDoCoMo confirmed that IPv6 will be used in their backbone starting Jan 2001 in a panel session with Fujitsu and the IPv6 Forum at WTC. FYI, it's equally easy for docomo to use IPv4, IPv6, OSI or any other protocol, because their backbone is a private network. Masataka Ohta
Re: imode far superior to wap
Nilsson; I doubt that you will find support from IETF folks for something that breaks the end-to-end model of IP (as Imode and WAP do as they are implemented today). I want to be able to ssh to my phone (or equivalent). Anything below that is just telephantisms. I'm afraid that ssh for phone is just another telephantisms. :-) If you want phone with real Internet style, see our INET paper: http://www.isoc.org/inet2000/cdproceedings/4a/4a_3.htm The "Simple Internet Phone" has an architecture tuned for a future situation in which non-Internet networks, such as IP-based private telephone networks, will disappear. While the "Simple Internet Phone" is a form of voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP), most, if not all, VoIP protocols are designed placing the priority in the affinity to the telephone network. However, it is obvious that the telephone network will be replaced by the Internet, and will eventually disappear. At that time, most of the features of VoIP protocols will become obsolete. Instead, the "Simple Internet Phone" is designed placing the priority in the affinity to the Internet and its architectural principles as an "end-to-end," "globally connected" and "scalable" IP network. As a result, most features of VoIP are substituted by the existing Internet protocols. With Internet phones, callees are required to have persistent connection to the Internet with globally unique addresses, which helps to promote the healthy development of the Internet. Dispite all the hypes of VoIP people on QoS with private IP network (if you are hyped, your phone can not be free and can not compete with telephone network), I just confirmed voice quality good enough between Taiwan and Japan through USA. Run this kind of protocol over Ricochet terminal and WAP and iMODE will disapper. Masataka Ohta PS You can purchase a prototype terminal adapter.
Re: end-to-end w/i-Mode? (was Re: imode far superior to wap)
At 12:20 PM +0100 8/10/00, Lloyd Wood wrote: On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, James P. Salsman wrote: ... breaks the end-to-end model of IP (as Imode and WAP do as they are implemented today). WAP does, but apparently i-Mode does not. No. it's the world's biggest NAT, and NAT *breaks the end-to-end model of IP*. Well, there is a big difference between WAP's breaking the e2e model and i-mode. WAP does an application gateway and uses no Internet protocols. At least, i-mode is using IP, TCP, HTTP, etc. Accusing them of breaking it, then puts the vast majority of subnets connected to the Internet into the same category. What's your point? It hardly seems appropriate to put i-mode and WAP in the same category.
Re: imode far superior to wap
Masataka Ohta wrote: Nilsson; I doubt that you will find support from IETF folks for something that breaks the end-to-end model of IP (as Imode and WAP do as they are implemented today). I want to be able to ssh to my phone (or equivalent). Anything below that is just telephantisms. I'm afraid that ssh for phone is just another telephantisms. :-) Compared to your much healthier view, yes. I do agree that it is very interesting. I was perhaps thinking the same but failed to express; the hand terminal is going to be a computing device with voice capability rather than a phone with datacom kludges. Then it is immediately obvious why one wants to make a VT-style terminal connection to it. :-) (ie SSH) -- Måns NilssonDNS Technichian +46 709 174 840 NIC-SE +46 8 545 85 707MN1334-RIPE
Sequentially assigned IP addresses--why not?
Seriously, As was pointed out recently, IPV6 will croak much sooner than it needs to for the simple reason that we structure routing intelligence into the address assignment. Wouldn't it be better by far, to assign new addresses from 000...1, and map to routing information however we may code it? The memory and processor steps required would be trivial compared to the agony of running out of space again. I'm sure this was argued before. But, it seems to me that the wrong direction has been taken. Gordie Corzine Compaq Global Services (but not speaking for Compaq)
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Re: Sequentially assigned IP addresses--why not?
"Corzine, Gordie" wrote: Seriously, As was pointed out recently, IPV6 will croak much sooner than it needs to for the simple reason that we structure routing intelligence into the address assignment. This is some sort of urban legend. If a routeable prefix was given to every human, using a predicted world population of 11 billion, we would consume about 0.004% of the total IPv6 address space. (The actual calculation is 11*10^9/2^48 since there are 48 bits in an IPv6 routing prefix. Or 11,000,000,000 / 281,474,976,710,656 = 0.39 ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Program Director, Internet Standards Technology, IBM On assignment for IBM at http://www.iCAIR.org Board Chairman, Internet Society http://www.isoc.org Non-IBM email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: end-to-end w/i-Mode? (was Re: imode far superior to wap)
-Original Message- From: John Day [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] No. it's the world's biggest NAT, and NAT *breaks the end-to-end model of IP*. Well, there is a big difference between WAP's breaking the e2e model and i-mode. WAP does an application gateway and uses no Internet protocols. At least, i-mode is using IP, TCP, HTTP, etc. John, Who cares what protocol a device runs as long as it delivers the application that satisfies its intended users? Most subscribers couldn't care less if i-mode used CLNP and TP4 instead of IP and TCP. i-mode is interesting because it uses a sub-set of html, which makes life lot easier for web based application designers. Accusing them of breaking it, then puts the vast majority of subnets connected to the Internet into the same category. What's your point? It hardly seems appropriate to put i-mode and WAP in the same category. NAT *breaks the end-to-end model of IP*. The biggest problem with NAT is that you can't deliver "push" applications from a server in the global realm to devices in the NAT world without using weird proxy mechanisms. If you do that, that is nothing but a different version of "WAP". Cheers, --brijesh Ennovate Networks INc.
RE: Sequentially assigned IP addresses--why not?
Using the IP address, you index into a table with 100 M entries, pick up an index into the 75K entry routing table. You now have two tables that require maintenance, that's all. If customer changes ISP, their entry in the first table is changed. Link is down, the second table's mechanisms handle it. Use a 64 bit processor architecture, memory is cheap. Re-architecting the Internet is going to become all but impossible. Its a matter of separating routing from identification. Look, my days as an engineer are a distant memory, so I won't try to work this out in detail. Maybe there are irrefutable reasons why this can't be done, but I do believe the current architecture will lead to premature exhaustion of the address space. Gordie From: Steven M. Bellovin Wouldn't it be better by far, to assign new addresses from 000...1, and map to routing information however we may code it? The memory and processor steps required would be trivial compared to the agony of running out of space again. The problem is that we (as a profession) don't know how to do that. We have to make routing scale, and that demands aggregation, which in turn demands structured addresses. Look at it this way. We have about 75K routes in the "default-free zone" now. If we just assigned addresses sequentially, we'd need a route for every endpoint. There are what, 100,000,000 nodes today, and more tomorrow? We can't handle 3 orders of magnitude increase in the size of that table, let alone what it will be in a few years.
Re: Sequentially assigned IP addresses--why not?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Cor zine, Gordie" writes: Using the IP address, you index into a table with 100 M entries, pick up an index into the 75K entry routing table. You now have two tables that require maintenance, that's all. If customer changes ISP, their entry in the first table is changed. Link is down, the second table's mechanisms handle it. Use a 64 bit processor architecture, memory is cheap. Re-architecting the Internet is going to become all but impossible. The issue isn't table lookup; it's the routing table calculation (and, in the case of your particular example, the sheer amount of data that has to be passed around). Put another way, how does each router know what should be in those 100M entries? Its a matter of separating routing from identification. Phrased somewhat differently, there are a lot of people who agree, though it's still a controversial notion. See if you can find a copy of draft-ietf-ipngwg-esd-analysis-06.txt (or -05) -- it's a description of the best worked-out proposal, plus a refutation of it. (I disagree with the refutation, but I'm not going to go into that now -- I think that the proposal is sound.) Briefly, the idea is to use the high-order 8 bytes of the v6 address for inter-site routing, and the low-order 8 bytes for host id.) But that still requires hierarchical assignment and routing for the high-order 8 bytes. *No one* knows how to do it any differently. Look, my days as an engineer are a distant memory, so I won't try to work this out in detail. Mere assertions that it is possible, in the face of the prevailing wisdom that it isn't, just won't cut it. Maybe you're right, maybe it can be done -- and if so, it won't be the first time that the accepted wisdom is wrong. But the Maybe there are irrefutable reasons why this can't be done, but I do believe the current architecture will lead to premature exhaustion of the address space. Apart from the fact that 128 bits is Really Big, v6 is supposed to have easy renumbering, so that we can renumber sites as they're move around to different pieces of the topology. --Steve Bellovin
Re: Home Improvements / Politically Connect
Re: Sequentially assigned IP addresses--why not?
Brian Carpenter writes: This is some sort of urban legend. If a routeable prefix was given to every human, using a predicted world population of 11 billion, we would consume about 0.004% of the total IPv6 address space. Surely you recall the quotation attributed to Thomas J. Watson: "The world will never need more than five computers."
Re: Sequentially assigned IP addresses--why not?
The problem is that we (as a profession) don't know how to do that. We have to make routing scale, and that demands aggregation, which in turn demands structured addresses. The telephone company figured out how to avoid problems decades ago. Why the computer industry has to rediscover things the hard way mystifies me.
Re: Sequentially assigned IP addresses--why not?
*No one* knows how to do it any differently. I have an idea: Let's merge IP addresses with telephone numbers. A person will have one IP address for each telephone number he owns, and vice versa, and the two numbers will be the same. Because the identifying number of a telephone is open-ended at both the front and back of the number, there is no limit to the number of addresses that can be accommodated, and the addresses can be used for routing without any danger of exhausting the address space. Example: My machine would be, say, .85794... to people on my block ..44785794... to people in my city ...37744785794... to people in my state .1737744785794... to people outside my country ...421737744785794... to people on Mars .401. to other machines on my home LAN .4015 to the subnet of machine 402 on my home LAN The digits in common between the two machines are not explicitly specified. The address space extends to infinity in both directions. The addressing scheme would locate the starting digit and the number of significant digits, so my full address would be any of the following: 32768-4-4015 32768-3-401 32744-00015-421737744785794 32767-8-94015487 The scheme would allow for starting digits and lengths in excess of 1-65534. The starting digit would be a plus or minus offset, allowing infinite expansion in either direction (there would be no root, but there would be a level 0). I want to talk to a machine in Zumbalu. It's address is 32744-00016-4216849200420283: ...4216849200420283.. Zumbalu ...4217377447857940.. me ...xxx6849200420283.. strip out common digits I connect to 32747-00013-6849200420283. I want to talk to my next-door neighbor. Her address is 32740-00020-04754217377447858662: 04754217377447858662. Jane 04754217377447857940. me 8662. strip out common digits I connect to 32766-4-8662. I have three physical routes from my machine; I select the one with the highest starting digit that is equal to or lower than the start digit of my destination address: R1 = 32768 = nope, too high R2 = 32740 = OK R3 = 32000 = too low Obviously other details can be worked out. This is just back-of-envelope stuff. The important thing is that there is unlimited room for expansion. Additionally, individual nodes in the network need only really know about their immediate neighbors. You wouldn't need worldwide root servers or anything like that.
RE: imode far superior to wap
folks, our current plan is NOT to try to extend a single address space across the solar system. We plan to confine address spaces to planets, satellites, space vehicles and the backbone Internet - but each address space is independent. We plan to use something akin to the domain name system for interplanetary-wide references. It's a little more complex than that, but in any case we concluded that trying to extend the end/end ADDRESS paradigm across the distances of the solar system were unrealistic. The design team is working on a spec it will look forward to sharing with anyone interested. vint At 04:59 PM 8/10/2000 +0200, Steven Cotton wrote: On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Barathy, RamaSubramaniam wrote: Soon we need to have the interplanetary ip address allocation methods even for our planet (The work of Vinton cerf colleagues in NASA) for so many devices popping up. This brings up some more problems I don't even want to start thinking about. Yet. -- steven = WorldCom 22001 Loudoun County Parkway Building F2, Room 4115, ATTN: Vint Cerf Ashburn, VA 20147 Telephone (703) 886-1690 FAX (703) 886-0047 "INTERNET IS FOR EVERYONE!" INET 2001: Internet Global Summit 5-8 June 2001 Sweden International Fairs Stockholm, Sweden http://www.isoc.org/inet2001
