Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Vasilii Shpilchin]

Voting for an rfc could be a quickest way to make a decision, since the
community does not have a consensus about the topic.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 6:33 PM Kris Craig  wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 3:14 PM Chase Peeler  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 5:32 PM Kris Craig  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 12:53 PM Chase Peeler 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 3:40 PM Kris Craig 
> wrote:
> >>>
> 
> 
>  On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 12:36 PM Chase Peeler 
>  wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 3:23 PM Kris Craig 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 10:17 AM Victor Bolshov  >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 14:26, Kris Craig 
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Specifically, I would direct this question to Pierre and Viktor:
> Do
> >> you
> >> > believe that "Arrest Dictator Putin" is appropriate for the PHP
> >> homepage?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > As a Russian who fled his country because of arising concerns over
> >> Mr.
> >> > Putin's regime, I find any words against him, appropriate. I'm a
> >> pacifist
> >> > but I probably would try to kill him if I was given a chance.
> >> >
> >> > Speaking about how appropriate "Arrest Putin" would be *on the PHP
> >> home
> >> > page*, I'd say no, because I see how many different people have
> >> gathered
> >> > here. We see that even Ukranian flag on PHP homepage is going to
> >> cause
> >> > tensions (what about Iraq & Viet Nam?).
> >> >
> >> > Starting this discussion, I had in mind the "sanity again madness"
> >> > mentality. I even feel sorry now for how this thread brings so
> many
> >> > disagreements and sol little compromise, so many emotions and so
> >> little
> >> > reason. I still think though that in times like this, stating
> >> something
> >> > like "PHP is against war" is very timely, and it is something we
> >> can agree
> >> > to, without destroying any connections within community.
> >> >
> >>
> >> +1 for a banner that says "PHP is against war".  I would have
> >> absolutely no
> >> objection to that one.
> >>
> > As I’ve said before, I would have a problem with this. War is
> terrible
> > and should be avoided at all costs. However, there are times it is
> > justified.
> > --
> > Chase Peeler
> > chasepee...@gmail.com
> >
> 
>  In that case, I think we should scrap this idea altogether.  I mean,
> if
>  we can't even agree that war (i.e. institutionalized mass murder) is
> a bad
>  thing, then there's no statement we could make on this that wouldn't
> divide
>  our community.
> 
>  I agree we should scrap this for the many reasons people have given
> >>> earlier. However, you are misquoting me. I said war was a terrible
> thing.
> >>> Sometimes, though, the alternative is worse. I point you to WW2. How
> many
> >>> more would have died in the holocaust if the allies had not gone to war
> >>> against the axis powers?
> >>> --
> >>> Chase Peeler
> >>> chasepee...@gmail.com
> >>>
> >>
> >> From a philosophical perspective, it could be argued that the war was
> >> already underway.  And since Hitler started that war to conquer, I would
> >> argue that WWII, like every other war, was unnecessary.
> >>
> >
> >
> > If no one had fought back, would it have really been a war?
> >
> >>
> >> That's not to say it wasn't necessary for the allies to get involved.
> >> But we didn't start that war, and it most certainly was not necessary
> for
> >> Germany to invade Poland.
> >>
> >
> > Exactly my point. We can say we are against war as much as we want, but
> > there are evil people in this world that will still prey on others. When
> > that happens, “good men” are sometimes forced to fight back.
> >
> >
> >> Fighting a war to end a war is one thing.  Starting a war, on the other
> >>
> >
> > Yep. So you’ve already made caveats to your absolute statement, which was
> > my point.
> >
> >>
> >> --
> > Chase Peeler
> > chasepee...@gmail.com
> >
>
> No we're just going by different standards.  When I say war is unnecessary,
> I'm not talking about fighting an existing war.  I'm talking about starting
> a war.
>
> And it doesn't have to be a formal declaration, either.  The British
> effectively waged war against my people before we finally started fighting
> back.
>
> Wars begin when some asshole with a lot of power decides he wants to use
> that power to take what doesn't belong to him.  War is nothing more than
> people murdering each other and destroying humanity's accomplishments.
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kris Craig]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 3:14 PM Chase Peeler  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 5:32 PM Kris Craig  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 12:53 PM Chase Peeler  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 3:40 PM Kris Craig  wrote:
>>>


 On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 12:36 PM Chase Peeler 
 wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 3:23 PM Kris Craig 
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 10:17 AM Victor Bolshov 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 14:26, Kris Craig 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Specifically, I would direct this question to Pierre and Viktor: Do
>> you
>> > believe that "Arrest Dictator Putin" is appropriate for the PHP
>> homepage?
>> >
>> >
>> > As a Russian who fled his country because of arising concerns over
>> Mr.
>> > Putin's regime, I find any words against him, appropriate. I'm a
>> pacifist
>> > but I probably would try to kill him if I was given a chance.
>> >
>> > Speaking about how appropriate "Arrest Putin" would be *on the PHP
>> home
>> > page*, I'd say no, because I see how many different people have
>> gathered
>> > here. We see that even Ukranian flag on PHP homepage is going to
>> cause
>> > tensions (what about Iraq & Viet Nam?).
>> >
>> > Starting this discussion, I had in mind the "sanity again madness"
>> > mentality. I even feel sorry now for how this thread brings so many
>> > disagreements and sol little compromise, so many emotions and so
>> little
>> > reason. I still think though that in times like this, stating
>> something
>> > like "PHP is against war" is very timely, and it is something we
>> can agree
>> > to, without destroying any connections within community.
>> >
>>
>> +1 for a banner that says "PHP is against war".  I would have
>> absolutely no
>> objection to that one.
>>
> As I’ve said before, I would have a problem with this. War is terrible
> and should be avoided at all costs. However, there are times it is
> justified.
> --
> Chase Peeler
> chasepee...@gmail.com
>

 In that case, I think we should scrap this idea altogether.  I mean, if
 we can't even agree that war (i.e. institutionalized mass murder) is a bad
 thing, then there's no statement we could make on this that wouldn't divide
 our community.

 I agree we should scrap this for the many reasons people have given
>>> earlier. However, you are misquoting me. I said war was a terrible thing.
>>> Sometimes, though, the alternative is worse. I point you to WW2. How many
>>> more would have died in the holocaust if the allies had not gone to war
>>> against the axis powers?
>>> --
>>> Chase Peeler
>>> chasepee...@gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> From a philosophical perspective, it could be argued that the war was
>> already underway.  And since Hitler started that war to conquer, I would
>> argue that WWII, like every other war, was unnecessary.
>>
>
>
> If no one had fought back, would it have really been a war?
>
>>
>> That's not to say it wasn't necessary for the allies to get involved.
>> But we didn't start that war, and it most certainly was not necessary for
>> Germany to invade Poland.
>>
>
> Exactly my point. We can say we are against war as much as we want, but
> there are evil people in this world that will still prey on others. When
> that happens, “good men” are sometimes forced to fight back.
>
>
>> Fighting a war to end a war is one thing.  Starting a war, on the other
>>
>
> Yep. So you’ve already made caveats to your absolute statement, which was
> my point.
>
>>
>> --
> Chase Peeler
> chasepee...@gmail.com
>

No we're just going by different standards.  When I say war is unnecessary,
I'm not talking about fighting an existing war.  I'm talking about starting
a war.

And it doesn't have to be a formal declaration, either.  The British
effectively waged war against my people before we finally started fighting
back.

Wars begin when some asshole with a lot of power decides he wants to use
that power to take what doesn't belong to him.  War is nothing more than
people murdering each other and destroying humanity's accomplishments.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Chase Peeler]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 5:32 PM Kris Craig  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 12:53 PM Chase Peeler  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 3:40 PM Kris Craig  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 12:36 PM Chase Peeler 
>>> wrote:
>>>


 On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 3:23 PM Kris Craig  wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 10:17 AM Victor Bolshov 
> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 14:26, Kris Craig 
> wrote:
> >
> > Specifically, I would direct this question to Pierre and Viktor: Do
> you
> > believe that "Arrest Dictator Putin" is appropriate for the PHP
> homepage?
> >
> >
> > As a Russian who fled his country because of arising concerns over
> Mr.
> > Putin's regime, I find any words against him, appropriate. I'm a
> pacifist
> > but I probably would try to kill him if I was given a chance.
> >
> > Speaking about how appropriate "Arrest Putin" would be *on the PHP
> home
> > page*, I'd say no, because I see how many different people have
> gathered
> > here. We see that even Ukranian flag on PHP homepage is going to
> cause
> > tensions (what about Iraq & Viet Nam?).
> >
> > Starting this discussion, I had in mind the "sanity again madness"
> > mentality. I even feel sorry now for how this thread brings so many
> > disagreements and sol little compromise, so many emotions and so
> little
> > reason. I still think though that in times like this, stating
> something
> > like "PHP is against war" is very timely, and it is something we can
> agree
> > to, without destroying any connections within community.
> >
>
> +1 for a banner that says "PHP is against war".  I would have
> absolutely no
> objection to that one.
>
 As I’ve said before, I would have a problem with this. War is terrible
 and should be avoided at all costs. However, there are times it is
 justified.
 --
 Chase Peeler
 chasepee...@gmail.com

>>>
>>> In that case, I think we should scrap this idea altogether.  I mean, if
>>> we can't even agree that war (i.e. institutionalized mass murder) is a bad
>>> thing, then there's no statement we could make on this that wouldn't divide
>>> our community.
>>>
>>> I agree we should scrap this for the many reasons people have given
>> earlier. However, you are misquoting me. I said war was a terrible thing.
>> Sometimes, though, the alternative is worse. I point you to WW2. How many
>> more would have died in the holocaust if the allies had not gone to war
>> against the axis powers?
>> --
>> Chase Peeler
>> chasepee...@gmail.com
>>
>
> From a philosophical perspective, it could be argued that the war was
> already underway.  And since Hitler started that war to conquer, I would
> argue that WWII, like every other war, was unnecessary.
>


If no one had fought back, would it have really been a war?

>
> That's not to say it wasn't necessary for the allies to get involved.  But
> we didn't start that war, and it most certainly was not necessary for
> Germany to invade Poland.
>

Exactly my point. We can say we are against war as much as we want, but
there are evil people in this world that will still prey on others. When
that happens, “good men” are sometimes forced to fight back.


> Fighting a war to end a war is one thing.  Starting a war, on the other
>

Yep. So you’ve already made caveats to your absolute statement, which was
my point.

>
> --
Chase Peeler
chasepee...@gmail.com

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kris Craig]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 3:09 PM  Good Guy   wrote:

> On 06/03/2022 22:32, Kris Craig wrote:
> >  From a philosophical perspective, it could be argued that the war was
> > already underway.  And since Hitler started that war to conquer, I would
> > argue that WWII, like every other war, was unnecessary.
> >
> > That's not to say it wasn't necessary for the allies to get involved.
> But
> > we didn't start that war, and it most certainly was not necessary for
> > Germany to invade Poland.
> >
> > Fighting a war to end a war is one thing.  Starting a war, on the other
> > hand
> >
> Why are you still going on about this.


I'm not.  If you read the thread, you'll see that I was just responding to
a point someone else made.

This is a PHP forum and there is
> no room for history or philosophy lessons here. Just cut it out and move
> on.
>
>
> --
> "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But
> it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning"
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php




>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[ Good Guy ]

On 06/03/2022 22:32, Kris Craig wrote:
>  From a philosophical perspective, it could be argued that the war was
> already underway.  And since Hitler started that war to conquer, I would
> argue that WWII, like every other war, was unnecessary.
>
> That's not to say it wasn't necessary for the allies to get involved.  But
> we didn't start that war, and it most certainly was not necessary for
> Germany to invade Poland.
>
> Fighting a war to end a war is one thing.  Starting a war, on the other
> hand
>
Why are you still going on about this. This is a PHP forum and there is 
no room for history or philosophy lessons here. Just cut it out and move on.


-- 
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But 
it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning"

-- 
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kris Craig]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 12:53 PM Chase Peeler  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 3:40 PM Kris Craig  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 12:36 PM Chase Peeler  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 3:23 PM Kris Craig  wrote:
>>>
 On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 10:17 AM Victor Bolshov 
 wrote:

 > On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 14:26, Kris Craig 
 wrote:
 >
 > Specifically, I would direct this question to Pierre and Viktor: Do
 you
 > believe that "Arrest Dictator Putin" is appropriate for the PHP
 homepage?
 >
 >
 > As a Russian who fled his country because of arising concerns over Mr.
 > Putin's regime, I find any words against him, appropriate. I'm a
 pacifist
 > but I probably would try to kill him if I was given a chance.
 >
 > Speaking about how appropriate "Arrest Putin" would be *on the PHP
 home
 > page*, I'd say no, because I see how many different people have
 gathered
 > here. We see that even Ukranian flag on PHP homepage is going to cause
 > tensions (what about Iraq & Viet Nam?).
 >
 > Starting this discussion, I had in mind the "sanity again madness"
 > mentality. I even feel sorry now for how this thread brings so many
 > disagreements and sol little compromise, so many emotions and so
 little
 > reason. I still think though that in times like this, stating
 something
 > like "PHP is against war" is very timely, and it is something we can
 agree
 > to, without destroying any connections within community.
 >

 +1 for a banner that says "PHP is against war".  I would have
 absolutely no
 objection to that one.

>>> As I’ve said before, I would have a problem with this. War is terrible
>>> and should be avoided at all costs. However, there are times it is
>>> justified.
>>> --
>>> Chase Peeler
>>> chasepee...@gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> In that case, I think we should scrap this idea altogether.  I mean, if
>> we can't even agree that war (i.e. institutionalized mass murder) is a bad
>> thing, then there's no statement we could make on this that wouldn't divide
>> our community.
>>
>> I agree we should scrap this for the many reasons people have given
> earlier. However, you are misquoting me. I said war was a terrible thing.
> Sometimes, though, the alternative is worse. I point you to WW2. How many
> more would have died in the holocaust if the allies had not gone to war
> against the axis powers?
> --
> Chase Peeler
> chasepee...@gmail.com
>

>From a philosophical perspective, it could be argued that the war was
already underway.  And since Hitler started that war to conquer, I would
argue that WWII, like every other war, was unnecessary.

That's not to say it wasn't necessary for the allies to get involved.  But
we didn't start that war, and it most certainly was not necessary for
Germany to invade Poland.

Fighting a war to end a war is one thing.  Starting a war, on the other
hand

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Chase Peeler]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 3:40 PM Kris Craig  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 12:36 PM Chase Peeler  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 3:23 PM Kris Craig  wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 10:17 AM Victor Bolshov 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 14:26, Kris Craig  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Specifically, I would direct this question to Pierre and Viktor: Do you
>>> > believe that "Arrest Dictator Putin" is appropriate for the PHP
>>> homepage?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > As a Russian who fled his country because of arising concerns over Mr.
>>> > Putin's regime, I find any words against him, appropriate. I'm a
>>> pacifist
>>> > but I probably would try to kill him if I was given a chance.
>>> >
>>> > Speaking about how appropriate "Arrest Putin" would be *on the PHP home
>>> > page*, I'd say no, because I see how many different people have
>>> gathered
>>> > here. We see that even Ukranian flag on PHP homepage is going to cause
>>> > tensions (what about Iraq & Viet Nam?).
>>> >
>>> > Starting this discussion, I had in mind the "sanity again madness"
>>> > mentality. I even feel sorry now for how this thread brings so many
>>> > disagreements and sol little compromise, so many emotions and so little
>>> > reason. I still think though that in times like this, stating something
>>> > like "PHP is against war" is very timely, and it is something we can
>>> agree
>>> > to, without destroying any connections within community.
>>> >
>>>
>>> +1 for a banner that says "PHP is against war".  I would have absolutely
>>> no
>>> objection to that one.
>>>
>> As I’ve said before, I would have a problem with this. War is terrible
>> and should be avoided at all costs. However, there are times it is
>> justified.
>> --
>> Chase Peeler
>> chasepee...@gmail.com
>>
>
> In that case, I think we should scrap this idea altogether.  I mean, if we
> can't even agree that war (i.e. institutionalized mass murder) is a bad
> thing, then there's no statement we could make on this that wouldn't divide
> our community.
>
> I agree we should scrap this for the many reasons people have given
earlier. However, you are misquoting me. I said war was a terrible thing.
Sometimes, though, the alternative is worse. I point you to WW2. How many
more would have died in the holocaust if the allies had not gone to war
against the axis powers?
-- 
Chase Peeler
chasepee...@gmail.com

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kris Craig]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 12:36 PM Chase Peeler  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 3:23 PM Kris Craig  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 10:17 AM Victor Bolshov 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 14:26, Kris Craig  wrote:
>> >
>> > Specifically, I would direct this question to Pierre and Viktor: Do you
>> > believe that "Arrest Dictator Putin" is appropriate for the PHP
>> homepage?
>> >
>> >
>> > As a Russian who fled his country because of arising concerns over Mr.
>> > Putin's regime, I find any words against him, appropriate. I'm a
>> pacifist
>> > but I probably would try to kill him if I was given a chance.
>> >
>> > Speaking about how appropriate "Arrest Putin" would be *on the PHP home
>> > page*, I'd say no, because I see how many different people have gathered
>> > here. We see that even Ukranian flag on PHP homepage is going to cause
>> > tensions (what about Iraq & Viet Nam?).
>> >
>> > Starting this discussion, I had in mind the "sanity again madness"
>> > mentality. I even feel sorry now for how this thread brings so many
>> > disagreements and sol little compromise, so many emotions and so little
>> > reason. I still think though that in times like this, stating something
>> > like "PHP is against war" is very timely, and it is something we can
>> agree
>> > to, without destroying any connections within community.
>> >
>>
>> +1 for a banner that says "PHP is against war".  I would have absolutely
>> no
>> objection to that one.
>>
> As I’ve said before, I would have a problem with this. War is terrible and
> should be avoided at all costs. However, there are times it is justified.
> --
> Chase Peeler
> chasepee...@gmail.com
>

In that case, I think we should scrap this idea altogether.  I mean, if we
can't even agree that war (i.e. institutionalized mass murder) is a bad
thing, then there's no statement we could make on this that wouldn't divide
our community.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Chase Peeler]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 3:23 PM Kris Craig  wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 10:17 AM Victor Bolshov 
> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 14:26, Kris Craig  wrote:
> >
> > Specifically, I would direct this question to Pierre and Viktor: Do you
> > believe that "Arrest Dictator Putin" is appropriate for the PHP homepage?
> >
> >
> > As a Russian who fled his country because of arising concerns over Mr.
> > Putin's regime, I find any words against him, appropriate. I'm a pacifist
> > but I probably would try to kill him if I was given a chance.
> >
> > Speaking about how appropriate "Arrest Putin" would be *on the PHP home
> > page*, I'd say no, because I see how many different people have gathered
> > here. We see that even Ukranian flag on PHP homepage is going to cause
> > tensions (what about Iraq & Viet Nam?).
> >
> > Starting this discussion, I had in mind the "sanity again madness"
> > mentality. I even feel sorry now for how this thread brings so many
> > disagreements and sol little compromise, so many emotions and so little
> > reason. I still think though that in times like this, stating something
> > like "PHP is against war" is very timely, and it is something we can
> agree
> > to, without destroying any connections within community.
> >
>
> +1 for a banner that says "PHP is against war".  I would have absolutely no
> objection to that one.
>
As I’ve said before, I would have a problem with this. War is terrible and
should be avoided at all costs. However, there are times it is justified.
-- 
Chase Peeler
chasepee...@gmail.com

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kris Craig]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 10:17 AM Victor Bolshov  wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 14:26, Kris Craig  wrote:
>
> Specifically, I would direct this question to Pierre and Viktor: Do you
> believe that "Arrest Dictator Putin" is appropriate for the PHP homepage?
>
>
> As a Russian who fled his country because of arising concerns over Mr.
> Putin's regime, I find any words against him, appropriate. I'm a pacifist
> but I probably would try to kill him if I was given a chance.
>
> Speaking about how appropriate "Arrest Putin" would be *on the PHP home
> page*, I'd say no, because I see how many different people have gathered
> here. We see that even Ukranian flag on PHP homepage is going to cause
> tensions (what about Iraq & Viet Nam?).
>
> Starting this discussion, I had in mind the "sanity again madness"
> mentality. I even feel sorry now for how this thread brings so many
> disagreements and sol little compromise, so many emotions and so little
> reason. I still think though that in times like this, stating something
> like "PHP is against war" is very timely, and it is something we can agree
> to, without destroying any connections within community.
>

+1 for a banner that says "PHP is against war".  I would have absolutely no
objection to that one.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Victor Bolshov]

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 14:26, Kris Craig  wrote:

Specifically, I would direct this question to
Pierre and Viktor:  Do you believe that "Arrest Dictator Putin" is
appropriate for the PHP homepage?


As a Russian who fled his country because of arising concerns over Mr. 
Putin's regime, I find any words against him, appropriate. I'm a 
pacifist but I probably would try to kill him if I was given a chance.


Speaking about how appropriate "Arrest Putin" would be *on the PHP home 
page*, I'd say no, because I see how many different people have 
gathered here. We see that even Ukranian flag on PHP homepage is going 
to cause tensions (what about Iraq & Viet Nam?).


Starting this discussion, I had in mind the "sanity again madness" 
mentality. I even feel sorry now for how this thread brings so many 
disagreements and sol little compromise, so many emotions and so little 
reason. I still think though that in times like this, stating something 
like "PHP is against war" is very timely, and it is something we can 
agree to, without destroying any connections within community.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[ Good Guy ]

On 05/03/2022 22:26, Kris Craig wrote:
>
> out a statement of solidarity with the victims of war or are we talking
> about putting out a political statement demanding the arrest of a world
> leader?  *THE TWO ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME!! *


Putin is no longer a world leader by any standards. He is a pariah 
because of his actions over the past 10 years.

I was simply trying to create something when you said:

"I think just about everybody here agrees that Putin is a war criminal 
and an all-around ass
who deserves to be brought to justice for his many crimes, including those
against Ukraine. "

Did you say that?

However, let's cut the chaff. How about this sanitised version?

We Stand With Ukraine 


-- 
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But 
it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning"

-- 
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kris Craig]

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 7:05 AM  Good Guy   wrote:

> On 05/03/2022 11:45, Sergey Panteleev wrote:
> >
> > Several members have asked not to have a debate on this mailing list,
> > let's respect their opinions too.
> >
> >
> >
>
> It's not debating. The original post was simply asking to show true
> colors of Ukraine's flag in these posts but HTML is not allowed here. I
> have created a simple HTML code that show something like this:
>
> Arrest Dictator Putin 
>
>
> --
>
> With over 1.7 billion devices now running Windows 10/11, customer
> satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
> Ffs this is exactly what I'm talking about!  Are we talking about putting
out a statement of solidarity with the victims of war or are we talking
about putting out a political statement demanding the arrest of a world
leader?  *THE TWO ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME!! *

So before we continue any further, we need to figure out EXACTLY what's
being proposed here because everybody seems to have a wildly different
interpretation of that.  Specifically, I would direct this question to
Pierre and Viktor:  Do you believe that "Arrest Dictator Putin" is
appropriate for the PHP homepage?  Is that what you meant when you said you
support a statement of solidarity?  I'm asking because it seems like there
are two very distinct camps among those who want to put out a statement:
One camp wants to express solidarity while the other seems more concerned
with personally condemning Vladimir Putin and demanding his arrest.

I'd feel a lot better about this if people would clarify which of these
camps they fall into.  It would be one thing if we had previously put up
something like "Arrest Dictator Bush" back in the day, but we didn't.  And
I'm not comfortable with the implied statement we'd be making that one
illegal invasion that displaces and murders innocent civilians is ok but
the other is not.

Could somebody please suggest a less politically divisive banner?  It
should focus on standing with the victims of war, not demanding arrests and
prosecutions.  That's not what the PHP homepage is for.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[ Good Guy ]

On 05/03/2022 11:45, Sergey Panteleev wrote:
>
> Several members have asked not to have a debate on this mailing list,
> let's respect their opinions too.
>
>
>

It's not debating. The original post was simply asking to show true 
colors of Ukraine's flag in these posts but HTML is not allowed here. I 
have created a simple HTML code that show something like this:

Arrest Dictator Putin 


-- 

With over 1.7 billion devices now running Windows 10/11, customer 
satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

-- 
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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Sergey Panteleev]

Please, let's not start attacking each other here,
everyone is nervous enough as it is.

Several members have asked not to have a debate on this mailing list,
let's respect their opinions too.

As an option, I suggest either creating a PR with a news/banner
and discussing _there_ in the comments,
so that people who want to express their opinion
will take part in the discussion, not the whole mailing list,

or create an RFC and vote (regarding this situation and all similar ones ever 
in the future) —
should PHP react to such world events.

—
wbr,
Sergey Panteleev

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kris Craig]

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 2:29 AM Maxime Veber  wrote:

> Guys, there's no place for debate here.
>
> You may not like how Marco is talking to you but he's deeply right.
>
> I'll be asking only one thing: what help do you need for a warning to
> appear on the PHP website.
> - Pull request with a flag?
> - Content for an article saying the PHP community stands with Ukraine and
> demands the end of any fight in Ukraine?
>
> Debate has no place here, let's start concrete action please.
>
> With hope and sadness,
> Maxime
>
> *–*
> Maxime
>
>
> Le sam. 5 mars 2022 à 10:58, Marco Pivetta  a écrit :
>
>> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022, 04:31 Kris Craig,  wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hey Christian,
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia
>> out of
>> >> > nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat
>> against
>> >> > Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or
>> even
>> >> > earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get
>> >> Ukriane
>> >> > on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between
>> >> Russia
>> >> > and the western.
>> >> >
>> >> > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I
>> do
>> >> > not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
>> >> > simple. Usually there's a long story.
>> >> > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community
>> for
>> >> > sure.
>> >> >
>> >> > Please do not start that.
>> >> >
>> >> > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
>> >> > facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as
>> >> they're
>> >> busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
>> >>
>> >> Greets,
>> >>
>> >> Marco Pivetta
>> >>
>> >> http://twitter.com/Ocramius
>> >>
>> >> http://ocramius.github.io/
>> >
>> >
>> > I find this deeply, deeply disturbing.
>> >
>>
>> Good: time for some self introspection then.
>>
>> As for the rest of the thread, I am deeply ashamed of the state of
>> php-internals.
>>
>> https://youtube.com/watch?v=Gfsiw2pf_Y0=1h44m48s
>>
>> I will take (continue taking) action elsewhere: the fact that some of you
>> are "disturbed" by my message, means that it came through as intended.
>>
>> >
>>
>
"Debate has no place here"?!  Since when?

Seriously, this is just getting downright creepy.  I think just about
everybody here agrees that Putin is a war criminal and an all-around ass
who deserves to be brought to justice for his many crimes, including those
against Ukraine.  However, there is legitimate disagreement over the scope
of our response.

This is a perfect example of what I've been talking about:  You have some
people advocating a general message of support for the victims of the
conflict, but then there are others like you who advocate a more political
response like making demands and condemnations.  Given that PHP has never
done this in the past, despite many occasions that easily compare to what's
happening now, doing so now I fear would send a mixed message.  Broaden the
statement to condemn past invasions like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and
Vietnam, then I'd be ok with it, though I still question the
appropriateness of including any political messages not directly pertaining
to internet freedom on the PHP website.  It just makes me nervous because
it sets a precedent that could be very easily abused in the future and
all-but certainly will be.

Looks to me like there's plenty of room for debate here.  To be clear, I
would wholeheartedly, vehemently object to ANY decision being made about
this one way or the other without our usual process of open and thorough
debate.  Declaring that there will be no debate is basically the equivalent
of saying, "I've decided we're doing things my way and you can all suck
it."  Seriously, it felt really, really disrespectful and exclusionary.

I'm always weary of anyone who demands that a group decision be made
without discussion or debate.  Not only does that fly in the face of this
community's longstanding tradition, but it also completely ignores the
glaring irony that "Debate has no place here" is a phrase you'd expect to
hear uttered in Russia, not on this listserv.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Maxime Veber]

Guys, there's no place for debate here.

You may not like how Marco is talking to you but he's deeply right.

I'll be asking only one thing: what help do you need for a warning to
appear on the PHP website.
- Pull request with a flag?
- Content for an article saying the PHP community stands with Ukraine and
demands the end of any fight in Ukraine?

Debate has no place here, let's start concrete action please.

With hope and sadness,
Maxime

*–*
Maxime


Le sam. 5 mars 2022 à 10:58, Marco Pivetta  a écrit :

> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022, 04:31 Kris Craig,  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta  wrote:
> >
> >> Hey Christian,
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM  wrote:
> >>
> >> > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out
> of
> >> > nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat
> against
> >> > Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
> >> > earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get
> >> Ukriane
> >> > on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between
> >> Russia
> >> > and the western.
> >> >
> >> > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I
> do
> >> > not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
> >> > simple. Usually there's a long story.
> >> > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community
> for
> >> > sure.
> >> >
> >> > Please do not start that.
> >> >
> >> > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
> >> > facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as
> >> they're
> >> busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
> >>
> >> Greets,
> >>
> >> Marco Pivetta
> >>
> >> http://twitter.com/Ocramius
> >>
> >> http://ocramius.github.io/
> >
> >
> > I find this deeply, deeply disturbing.
> >
>
> Good: time for some self introspection then.
>
> As for the rest of the thread, I am deeply ashamed of the state of
> php-internals.
>
> https://youtube.com/watch?v=Gfsiw2pf_Y0=1h44m48s
>
> I will take (continue taking) action elsewhere: the fact that some of you
> are "disturbed" by my message, means that it came through as intended.
>
> >
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Marco Pivetta]

On Sat, 5 Mar 2022, 04:31 Kris Craig,  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta  wrote:
>
>> Hey Christian,
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM  wrote:
>>
>> > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of
>> > nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
>> > Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
>> > earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get
>> Ukriane
>> > on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between
>> Russia
>> > and the western.
>> >
>> > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do
>> > not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
>> > simple. Usually there's a long story.
>> > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for
>> > sure.
>> >
>> > Please do not start that.
>> >
>> > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
>> > facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
>> >
>>
>> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as
>> they're
>> busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
>>
>> Greets,
>>
>> Marco Pivetta
>>
>> http://twitter.com/Ocramius
>>
>> http://ocramius.github.io/
>
>
> I find this deeply, deeply disturbing.
>

Good: time for some self introspection then.

As for the rest of the thread, I am deeply ashamed of the state of
php-internals.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Gfsiw2pf_Y0=1h44m48s

I will take (continue taking) action elsewhere: the fact that some of you
are "disturbed" by my message, means that it came through as intended.

>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kris Craig]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 10:16 PM Pierre Joye  wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2022, 10:31 AM Kris Craig  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta  wrote:
>>
>>
>> But that doesn't mean we should be using the PHP website to start taking
>> sides in military conflicts.
>>
>
> There is no side to take but the population in Ukraine, friends, family,
> colleagues as well as in Russians, the victims of a dictatorship' lies.
>
> I don't see any issue to show our support for them, quite the opposite, I
> do see an issue not to show it. A link to red cross and other ong
> supporting refugees and civilians is not political, it is being a human.
>
> It does not mean we take a political side. As much as there is not much to
> discuss about that, but the deconstruction,  point by point, of every
> single claim to justify this invasion, but php.net is not the place for
> that.
>
> best,
>

I think we need to draw a really important distinction here then.  On the
one hand, you describe showing support for the Ukrainian people, civilians,
refugees, and relief organizations.  I agree with you on this, as I imagine
most would.  Helping the innocent shouldn't be political.  But on the other
hand, you have other people here advocating that we condemn the invasion,
itself, as well as Russia and Vladimir Putin.  While I agree they're fully
deserving of condemnation, this part is inherently political, and I
question the appropriateness of including such a blatantly political
message on our website.  I don't oppose the message, itself, but I do fear
the precedent it would set, especially in the absence of previous
condemnations by us of illegal invasions in the past.

If all we're talking about is a message of solidarity with the victims of
war, I'm all for it.  I'd also be for a general condemnation of all illegal
wars/invasions, including this one.  At least then we're being consistent
IMO.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Pierre Joye]

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022, 10:31 AM Kris Craig  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta  wrote:
>
>
> But that doesn't mean we should be using the PHP website to start taking
> sides in military conflicts.
>

There is no side to take but the population in Ukraine, friends, family,
colleagues as well as in Russians, the victims of a dictatorship' lies.

I don't see any issue to show our support for them, quite the opposite, I
do see an issue not to show it. A link to red cross and other ong
supporting refugees and civilians is not political, it is being a human.

It does not mean we take a political side. As much as there is not much to
discuss about that, but the deconstruction,  point by point, of every
single claim to justify this invasion, but php.net is not the place for
that.

best,

>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kris Craig]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta  wrote:

> Hey Christian,
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM  wrote:
>
> > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of
> > nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
> > Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
> > earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get
> Ukriane
> > on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia
> > and the western.
> >
> > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do
> > not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
> > simple. Usually there's a long story.
> > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for
> > sure.
> >
> > Please do not start that.
> >
> > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
> > facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
> >
>
> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're
> busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
>
> Greets,
>
> Marco Pivetta
>
> http://twitter.com/Ocramius
>
> http://ocramius.github.io/


I find this deeply, deeply disturbing.  In response to someone making the
argument that using the PHP website to take sides in military conflicts
between nations would risk dividing our community, you told him to "get the
fuck out" and accused him of promoting "Putin's propaganda".  From where
I'm sitting, this looks like a blatant effort on your part to silence any
dissent on this by immediately demonizing critics of this idea as Russian
operatives.  Are you going to accuse me of being a Russian spy now, as well?

To be clear, I don't support Putin's invasion of Ukraine.  In fact, I was
denouncing Putin on social media as a brutal dictator before it was cool,
back when the western news media was still singing his praises.  He's a war
criminal piece of garbage and the world will be much better off when he's
finally gone.

But that doesn't mean we should be using the PHP website to start taking
sides in military conflicts.  I just don't like the precedent we'd be
setting, especially since, as others have already pointed out here, we
never took any such stand against the U.S. invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq,
or Libya.  So if we were to start doing that now, it would look pretty damn
hypocritical of us.  Plus I don't want us to start having to deal with
batshit conspiracy theories about how PHP is secretly controlled by the
U.S. government.  Besides, it should be noted that PHP is not a political
organization.

If anybody's open to a compromise proposal, how about a general statement
of support for the peoples of Ukraine and any other nation currently
besieged by foreign invaders.  That I think would be far less divisive, as
evidenced by some of the messages we're seeing in this thread.  Accusing
every random dissenter of being an agent of Vladimir Putin just reeks of
logical fallacies, not to mention paranoia.  Reverting back to a
McCarthyist mindset will not help the people of Ukraine.

So can we please try to tone this down a bit?  I read through this entire
thread (painful though it was in places) and was not able to find anything
that any reasonable observer would regard as "Putin propaganda".  Nobody
here is a Russian secret agent trying to mindfuck us.  What I see is a
group of people who believe PHP needs to take a stand on this issue and
another group of people who believe PHP has no business getting involved.
Both are valid arguments worthy of debate, which means there's absolutely
NO NEED to question people's motives or demonize them as being agents of
Putin or the U.S. or whatever else.  Just debate the merits of the issue,
take a vote, and we're good.

Alternatively, I also like Viktor's idea of making a broader statement
against war in general.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Chase Peeler]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 8:53 PM Michael Morris  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 3:31 AM Victor Bolshov 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello internals.
> >
> > In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> > of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> > to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> > aggression.
> >
> > I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> > the header of php.net website.
> >
> > Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> > lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> > still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> > that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> > the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
> >
> > This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> > an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> >  and their clear statement.
> >
> > Say NO to war!
> >
>
> This original post has been met with some controversy. I don't know how
> much my voice counts, but I will say this.
>
> The occasions in history where one side is utterly and completely in the
> wrong are rare, but they do occur. Russia had no right to invade - period.
> Attempts on this list have been made to justify Russia's actions, but they
> are logically tortured as the Nazi justifications for invading Poland or
> Soviet Russia.


Maybe I missed them, but I don’t recall anyone justifying Russias actions.
Can you cite them please?


>
> Speaking of the Nazis, even Hitler didn't stoop so low as to send in troops
> utterly unprepared for what they were about to face while lying to them
> that they'd be lauded as heroes. Neither did Stalin.  Putin has done that.
>
> Now, you can try to justify certain things. You can try to justify Putin's
> War, but you will never convince anyone of your position - you can only
> succeed in proving yourself to be evil. Evil is the complete absence of
> compassion for the suffering of others, and only someone who is evil can
> advocate for Putin's War or try to justify it in any measure.
>
> Evil is a powerful word - one I do not use lightly. When one side calls
> another evil they say that there can be no more dialog, no more compromise,
> no more cooperation. The only correct response to evil is opposition.
>
-- 
Chase Peeler
chasepee...@gmail.com

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Michael Morris]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 3:31 AM Victor Bolshov  wrote:

> Hello internals.
>
> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> aggression.
>
> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> the header of php.net website.
>
> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>
> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
>  and their clear statement.
>
> Say NO to war!
>

This original post has been met with some controversy. I don't know how
much my voice counts, but I will say this.

The occasions in history where one side is utterly and completely in the
wrong are rare, but they do occur. Russia had no right to invade - period.
Attempts on this list have been made to justify Russia's actions, but they
are logically tortured as the Nazi justifications for invading Poland or
Soviet Russia.

Speaking of the Nazis, even Hitler didn't stoop so low as to send in troops
utterly unprepared for what they were about to face while lying to them
that they'd be lauded as heroes. Neither did Stalin.  Putin has done that.

Now, you can try to justify certain things. You can try to justify Putin's
War, but you will never convince anyone of your position - you can only
succeed in proving yourself to be evil. Evil is the complete absence of
compassion for the suffering of others, and only someone who is evil can
advocate for Putin's War or try to justify it in any measure.

Evil is a powerful word - one I do not use lightly. When one side calls
another evil they say that there can be no more dialog, no more compromise,
no more cooperation. The only correct response to evil is opposition.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Hamza Ahmad]

A yes from my side.

On 3/4/22, Joe Watkins  wrote:
> Morning internals,
>
> Today, some friends of the project, people we consider leaders even, are
> waking up in a war zone.
>
> They are living an unimaginable horror, and as I sit here and type, I fight
> back tears for them ... I am afraid for them, their families, their lives.
>
> The feeling of helplessness is overwhelming.
>
> However, here is where we develop PHP: This space is free of everything
> that is nothing to do with the development of PHP.
>
> Obviously, we are not bad people for not wanting to make this space about
> non-php things.
>
> I would kindly ask that this conversation, which is not about PHP
> development, is moved to more appropriate channels:
>
> Please remember that when you email the list you are communicating not only
> with the person you are replying to, but with everyone that ever subscribed
> to the list.
>
> When you conduct protracted conversations that are nothing to do with PHP,
> it is tantamount to spamming those people.
>
> Cheers
> Joe
>
> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 at 09:25, Lynn  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 9:17 AM Kalle Sommer Nielsen 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.18 skrev Lynn :
>> > > Not making a statement is also making a statement.
>> >
>> > I disagree, assuming a stance without understanding the context is
>> insanity
>> >
>> >
>> What context are we not understanding?
>>
>

-- 
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Joe Watkins]

Morning internals,

Today, some friends of the project, people we consider leaders even, are
waking up in a war zone.

They are living an unimaginable horror, and as I sit here and type, I fight
back tears for them ... I am afraid for them, their families, their lives.

The feeling of helplessness is overwhelming.

However, here is where we develop PHP: This space is free of everything
that is nothing to do with the development of PHP.

Obviously, we are not bad people for not wanting to make this space about
non-php things.

I would kindly ask that this conversation, which is not about PHP
development, is moved to more appropriate channels:

Please remember that when you email the list you are communicating not only
with the person you are replying to, but with everyone that ever subscribed
to the list.

When you conduct protracted conversations that are nothing to do with PHP,
it is tantamount to spamming those people.

Cheers
Joe

On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 at 09:25, Lynn  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 9:17 AM Kalle Sommer Nielsen  wrote:
>
> > Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.18 skrev Lynn :
> > > Not making a statement is also making a statement.
> >
> > I disagree, assuming a stance without understanding the context is
> insanity
> >
> >
> What context are we not understanding?
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Victor Bolshov]

Exactly. What context are we not understanding? Condemn war. Peace is 
the only side PHP is about to take, it is ALWAYS good to be for peace 
and against war. Is this going to separate the PHP community in any 
way? No. Just - NO. Easy as that.


On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 09:25, Lynn  wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 9:17 AM Kalle Sommer Nielsen > wrote:


 Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.18 skrev Lynn >:

 > Not making a statement is also making a statement.

 I disagree, assuming a stance without understanding the context is 
insanity




What context are we not understanding?

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Lynn]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 9:17 AM Kalle Sommer Nielsen  wrote:

> Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.18 skrev Lynn :
> > Not making a statement is also making a statement.
>
> I disagree, assuming a stance without understanding the context is insanity
>
>
What context are we not understanding?

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kalle Sommer Nielsen]

Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.38 skrev Eugene Sidelnyk :
>
> You can't just go the usual way like nothing happens. This is the same as if 
> you know someone dying and say: well, I can't help with anything, so I will 
> do nothing against it. Inaction in such cases offends people. Banner is the 
> least possible, still useful way to help and people will know you are trying 
> to help whatever you think you can help.

Trying to push on people's feelings is also offending, or rather
trying to weaponize it as part of your personal agenda to get what you
want.

-- 
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
ka...@php.net

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kalle Sommer Nielsen]

Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.18 skrev Lynn :
> Not making a statement is also making a statement.

I disagree, assuming a stance without understanding the context is insanity

-- 
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
ka...@php.net

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[ Good Guy ]

Please read post in HTML to see the main message!!


-- 

With over 1.7 billion devices now running Windows 10/11, customer 
satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Paul Crovella]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 8:51 PM G. P. B.  wrote:
>
> Moreover, at the time of writing this, none of the following programming
> languages have any messages in regards to the war:
> - Python (https://www.python.org/)
> - TypeScript (https://www.typescriptlang.org/)
> - Rust (https://www.rust-lang.org/)

I know at least Rust[1] does, dunno about the others.

[1] https://blog.rust-lang.org/2022/02/24/Rust-1.59.0.html

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[G. P. B.]

On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 09:31, Victor Bolshov  wrote:

> Hello internals.
>
> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> aggression.
>
> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> the header of php.net website.
>
> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>
> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
>  and their clear statement.
>
> Say NO to war!
>

There is no one who can make such a call on whether or not to make a
statement on behalf of PHP.
PHP is not owned by anyone, we don't even have a steering committee
compared to other languages who *might* be able to make such a call.
PHP's development is extremely distributed, for better or for worse.

This is in stark contrast to a project like Symfony (a product "owned" by
SensioLabs) who can make such a call.
Even other projects which have a more distinct leadership haven't said
anything, so I don't see how a project which has no clear leadership can do
so.

On the fact: "not saying anything is also taking a stance", I think nobody
here disagrees with this, but that's not the issue.
The issue is: who gets to decide when and what and how PHP says something
about a matter unrelated to PHP.
There *might* be a tenuous argument to be made that the PHP Group which
allegedly holds the copyright to PHP should be the ones to decide this.
However, I don't think most of us would want to go down that route.

The only way PHP decides on anything is via the RFC process, and although
it has been used for process/policy related discussion (e.g. voting RFC,
naming of PHP 6/7)
I personally don't think it is the best medium to make such decisions, but
introducing any other process would need to be discussed and voted via the
current RFC mechanism.

Moreover, at the time of writing this, none of the following programming
languages have any messages in regards to the war:
- Python (https://www.python.org/)
- TypeScript (https://www.typescriptlang.org/)
- Rust (https://www.rust-lang.org/)
- Ruby (https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/)
- C# (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/)
- Scala (https://www.scala-lang.org/)
- Kotlin (https://kotlinlang.org/) [which is developed by JetBrains who
*have* taken an open stance against the war]
- Golang (https://go.dev/)
- ECMAScript/JavaScrip (
https://www.ecma-international.org/technical-committees/tc39/)
- Julia (https://julialang.org/)
- R (https://www.r-project.org/)
- C and C++ (https://www.iso.org)
- Perl (https://www.perl.org/)
- Raku (https://raku.org/)

Obviously this list is not exhaustive (and if there is one which has
messaging do let me know),
but as other - popular - programing languages (some having something more
akin to "leaders") haven't added any messaging against the conflit,
it makes me extremely wary about PHP doing it first when we don't have the
maintainers bandwidth to deal with whatever might come after such a
decision.

Kindly,

George P. Banyard

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Eugene Sidelnyk]

You can't just go the usual way like nothing happens. This is the same as
if you know someone dying and say: well, I can't help with anything, so I
will do nothing against it. Inaction in such cases offends people. Banner
is the least possible, still useful way to help and people will know you
are trying to help whatever you think you can help.

By "you" I mean PHP community.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 11:46 PM Kalle Sommer Nielsen  wrote:

> Den tor. 3. mar. 2022 kl. 20.29 skrev Eugene Sidelnyk  >:
> >
> > BTW, regarding symfony and banner, it doesn't seem to have many (if any)
> > issues in github flooded. So what's the problem?
>
> The problem is making a political statement. This is not something the
> PHP project does; you may think that it means the PHP project doesn't
> care and that is in your right to do so. However it is not the place
> for PHP to make a statement on this matter, nor is it on other
> matters. You are welcome to promote this on your own social media
> platforms and websites.
>
> The general statements made here by you tonight is more alike to being
> kafkatraps based on the phrasing, which I would refrain from
> (regardless of the topic being discussed).
>
> --
> regards,
>
> Kalle Sommer Nielsen
> ka...@php.net
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Lynn]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 10:46 PM Kalle Sommer Nielsen  wrote:

> Den tor. 3. mar. 2022 kl. 20.29 skrev Eugene Sidelnyk  >:
> >
> > BTW, regarding symfony and banner, it doesn't seem to have many (if any)
> > issues in github flooded. So what's the problem?
>
> The problem is making a political statement. This is not something the
> PHP project does; you may think that it means the PHP project doesn't
> care and that is in your right to do so. However it is not the place
> for PHP to make a statement on this matter, nor is it on other
> matters. You are welcome to promote this on your own social media
> platforms and websites.
>

Not making a statement is also making a statement.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Alain D D Williams]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 11:46:39PM +0200, Kalle Sommer Nielsen wrote:
> Den tor. 3. mar. 2022 kl. 20.29 skrev Eugene Sidelnyk :
> >
> > BTW, regarding symfony and banner, it doesn't seem to have many (if any)
> > issues in github flooded. So what's the problem?
> 
> The problem is making a political statement. This is not something the
> PHP project does; you may think that it means the PHP project doesn't
> care and that is in your right to do so. However it is not the place
> for PHP to make a statement on this matter, nor is it on other
> matters. You are welcome to promote this on your own social media
> platforms and websites.

You might like to read this article about ICANN not deleting all Russian 
domains:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/03/icann_ukraine_russian_domains/

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT 
Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: 
https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kalle Sommer Nielsen]

Den tor. 3. mar. 2022 kl. 20.29 skrev Eugene Sidelnyk :
>
> BTW, regarding symfony and banner, it doesn't seem to have many (if any)
> issues in github flooded. So what's the problem?

The problem is making a political statement. This is not something the
PHP project does; you may think that it means the PHP project doesn't
care and that is in your right to do so. However it is not the place
for PHP to make a statement on this matter, nor is it on other
matters. You are welcome to promote this on your own social media
platforms and websites.

The general statements made here by you tonight is more alike to being
kafkatraps based on the phrasing, which I would refrain from
(regardless of the topic being discussed).

-- 
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
ka...@php.net

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Max Semenik]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:14 PM Eugene Sidelnyk  wrote:

> Maybe we'd create an RFC, create an poll and decide this way?


Each of these options would require some time, and time is something not we
don't have plenty of. If such a banner appears two weeks from now, how much
sense would it make? Can at least we agree on something uncontroversial,
like a banner encouraging people to donate to humanitarian efforts?

-- 
Best regards,
Max Semenik

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Eugene Sidelnyk]

BTW, regarding symfony and banner, it doesn't seem to have many (if any)
issues in github flooded. So what's the problem?

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 8:27 PM Max Semenik  wrote:

> Each of these options would take some time, and time is what
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:14 PM Eugene Sidelnyk 
> wrote:
>
>> Maybe we'd create an RFC, create an poll and decide this way?
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 8:10 PM Alain D D Williams 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 07:56:39PM +0200, Eugene Sidelnyk wrote:
>> >
>> > > If you, as PHP community, do not do anything about it, it would mean
>> that
>> > > you don't care. Well, everyone who writes php internals is for
>> discussion
>> > > of php internals only doesn't care and probably won't.
>> >
>> > Not true, I do care. I have done several things, eg: the Ukraine flag is
>> > on my
>> > own web site.
>> >
>> > However: I do not believe that it is right for this to be on the
>> php.net
>> > web
>> > site. PHP is not either a political organisation nor something with a
>> high
>> > public profile: we are not FIFA. If we support Ukraine who else do we
>> > support.
>> >
>> > We can encourage that those on this list should show their support in
>> > their own
>> > way. We can not put it stronger than that; we might also find that some
>> on
>> > this
>> > list might support what Putin is doing, we must respect their views -
>> if so
>> > then discussion with them should be elsewhere - not on this list.
>> >
>> > I am very sympathetic, but I think that PHP should avoid this issue.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Alain Williams
>> > Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer,
>> IT
>> > Lecturer.
>> > +44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
>> > Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information:
>> > https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
>> > #include 
>> >
>> > --
>> > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
>> > To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Max Semenik
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Max Semenik]

Each of these options would take some time, and time is what

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:14 PM Eugene Sidelnyk  wrote:

> Maybe we'd create an RFC, create an poll and decide this way?
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 8:10 PM Alain D D Williams  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 07:56:39PM +0200, Eugene Sidelnyk wrote:
> >
> > > If you, as PHP community, do not do anything about it, it would mean
> that
> > > you don't care. Well, everyone who writes php internals is for
> discussion
> > > of php internals only doesn't care and probably won't.
> >
> > Not true, I do care. I have done several things, eg: the Ukraine flag is
> > on my
> > own web site.
> >
> > However: I do not believe that it is right for this to be on the php.net
> > web
> > site. PHP is not either a political organisation nor something with a
> high
> > public profile: we are not FIFA. If we support Ukraine who else do we
> > support.
> >
> > We can encourage that those on this list should show their support in
> > their own
> > way. We can not put it stronger than that; we might also find that some
> on
> > this
> > list might support what Putin is doing, we must respect their views - if
> so
> > then discussion with them should be elsewhere - not on this list.
> >
> > I am very sympathetic, but I think that PHP should avoid this issue.
> >
> > --
> > Alain Williams
> > Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer,
> IT
> > Lecturer.
> > +44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
> > Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information:
> > https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
> > #include 
> >
> > --
> > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> > To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
> >
>


-- 
Best regards,
Max Semenik

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Vasilii Shpilchin]

There's no such thing as 70% support of Putin. A people from ouside of
Russia has no chance to understand the internal situation. As a russian
living in USA I must say, any (any) mainstream media to fake the Russia's
image, more or less. But russian people is under pressure for many years,
internal economy is weak for many years, human rights are nearly
eliminated. Russia is also a federation of many nations. Please, do not
connect majority of russian people with this agression. In that country
people has much less power than you can think living in a free country.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 12:57 PM Eugene Sidelnyk  wrote:

> All the world currently talks about the situation in Ukraine. Everyone who
> knows the truth are trying to help stop invasion. The main problem here is
> that most of Russian people believe in Putin's political position. Moreover
> they will have Instagram and Twitter blocked soon in Russia so that they
> won't be able to know the real state of things.
>
> Therefore our responsibility is to bring the truth to Russian people and
> they will do the rest. PS. 70% of surveyed people support Putin. How else
> we can inform them of what is really going on if not writing about it
> everywhere?
>
> If you, as PHP community, do not do anything about it, it would mean that
> you don't care. Well, everyone who writes php internals is for discussion
> of php internals only doesn't care and probably won't.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 5:49 PM Arvids Godjuks 
> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 11:31, Victor Bolshov 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello internals.
> > >
> > > In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> > > of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> > > to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> > > aggression.
> > >
> > > I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> > > the header of php.net website.
> > >
> > > Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> > > lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> > > still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> > > that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> > > the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
> > >
> > > This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> > > an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> > >  and their clear statement.
> > >
> > > Say NO to war!
> > >
> > >
> >
> > As someone from Baltics and living there still - yeah, colour be yellow
> and
> > blue all the way.
> >
> > But I also think we should leave php.net out of it - this is not a
> project
> > with a core tea - this is a very distributed project that probably
> touches
> > almost every single country on this planet.
> >
> > Another reason - just look what happened to the React's issue tracker:
> > https://github.com/facebook/react/issues  - you can bet your life on it
> > that this will happen to the PHP project as soon as there is anything on
> > this topic done. Does the project has resources to deal with it? I mean,
> > this is basically a DDoS that can be solved only by closing off issue
> > creation from public.
> >
> > It's just impractical and will ruin maintainers and contributors ability
> to
> > do their work for the foreseeable future.
> > --
> >
> > Arvīds Godjuks
> > +371 26 851 664
> > arvids.godj...@gmail.com
> > Telegram: @psihius https://t.me/psihius
> >
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Eugene Sidelnyk]

Maybe we'd create an RFC, create an poll and decide this way?

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 8:10 PM Alain D D Williams  wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 07:56:39PM +0200, Eugene Sidelnyk wrote:
>
> > If you, as PHP community, do not do anything about it, it would mean that
> > you don't care. Well, everyone who writes php internals is for discussion
> > of php internals only doesn't care and probably won't.
>
> Not true, I do care. I have done several things, eg: the Ukraine flag is
> on my
> own web site.
>
> However: I do not believe that it is right for this to be on the php.net
> web
> site. PHP is not either a political organisation nor something with a high
> public profile: we are not FIFA. If we support Ukraine who else do we
> support.
>
> We can encourage that those on this list should show their support in
> their own
> way. We can not put it stronger than that; we might also find that some on
> this
> list might support what Putin is doing, we must respect their views - if so
> then discussion with them should be elsewhere - not on this list.
>
> I am very sympathetic, but I think that PHP should avoid this issue.
>
> --
> Alain Williams
> Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT
> Lecturer.
> +44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
> Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information:
> https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
> #include 
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Alain D D Williams]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2022 at 07:56:39PM +0200, Eugene Sidelnyk wrote:

> If you, as PHP community, do not do anything about it, it would mean that
> you don't care. Well, everyone who writes php internals is for discussion
> of php internals only doesn't care and probably won't.

Not true, I do care. I have done several things, eg: the Ukraine flag is on my
own web site.

However: I do not believe that it is right for this to be on the php.net web
site. PHP is not either a political organisation nor something with a high
public profile: we are not FIFA. If we support Ukraine who else do we support.

We can encourage that those on this list should show their support in their own
way. We can not put it stronger than that; we might also find that some on this
list might support what Putin is doing, we must respect their views - if so
then discussion with them should be elsewhere - not on this list.

I am very sympathetic, but I think that PHP should avoid this issue.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT 
Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: 
https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
#include 

-- 
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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Eugene Sidelnyk]

And how do they approach the issue? How effective is their approach?
Currently I don't see any result of it.

About won't change - I don't agree. At leas for someone it would. The more
people see something the more they believe in it. This is exactly
how propaganda works

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 7:59 PM Chase Peeler  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 12:56 PM Eugene Sidelnyk 
> wrote:
>
>> All the world currently talks about the situation in Ukraine. Everyone who
>> knows the truth are trying to help stop invasion. The main problem here is
>> that most of Russian people believe in Putin's political position.
>> Moreover
>> they will have Instagram and Twitter blocked soon in Russia so that they
>> won't be able to know the real state of things.
>>
>> Therefore our responsibility is to bring the truth to Russian people and
>> they will do the rest. PS. 70% of surveyed people support Putin. How else
>> we can inform them of what is really going on if not writing about it
>> everywhere?
>>
>>
> A banner on php.net isn't going to change their minds
>
>
>> If you, as PHP community, do not do anything about it, it would mean that
>> you don't care. Well, everyone who writes php internals is for discussion
>> of php internals only doesn't care and probably won't.
>>
>>
> This is the kind of language we need to avoid. Don't accuse people of not
> caring just because they don't agree with how to approach the issue.
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 5:49 PM Arvids Godjuks 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 11:31, Victor Bolshov 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hello internals.
>> > >
>> > > In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
>> > > of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
>> > > to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
>> > > aggression.
>> > >
>> > > I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
>> > > the header of php.net website.
>> > >
>> > > Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
>> > > lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
>> > > still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
>> > > that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
>> > > the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>> > >
>> > > This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
>> > > an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
>> > >  and their clear statement.
>> > >
>> > > Say NO to war!
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > As someone from Baltics and living there still - yeah, colour be yellow
>> and
>> > blue all the way.
>> >
>> > But I also think we should leave php.net out of it - this is not a
>> project
>> > with a core tea - this is a very distributed project that probably
>> touches
>> > almost every single country on this planet.
>> >
>> > Another reason - just look what happened to the React's issue tracker:
>> > https://github.com/facebook/react/issues  - you can bet your life on it
>> > that this will happen to the PHP project as soon as there is anything on
>> > this topic done. Does the project has resources to deal with it? I mean,
>> > this is basically a DDoS that can be solved only by closing off issue
>> > creation from public.
>> >
>> > It's just impractical and will ruin maintainers and contributors
>> ability to
>> > do their work for the foreseeable future.
>> > --
>> >
>> > Arvīds Godjuks
>> > +371 26 851 664
>> > arvids.godj...@gmail.com
>> > Telegram: @psihius https://t.me/psihius
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> Chase Peeler
> chasepee...@gmail.com
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Chase Peeler]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 12:56 PM Eugene Sidelnyk  wrote:

> All the world currently talks about the situation in Ukraine. Everyone who
> knows the truth are trying to help stop invasion. The main problem here is
> that most of Russian people believe in Putin's political position. Moreover
> they will have Instagram and Twitter blocked soon in Russia so that they
> won't be able to know the real state of things.
>
> Therefore our responsibility is to bring the truth to Russian people and
> they will do the rest. PS. 70% of surveyed people support Putin. How else
> we can inform them of what is really going on if not writing about it
> everywhere?
>
>
A banner on php.net isn't going to change their minds


> If you, as PHP community, do not do anything about it, it would mean that
> you don't care. Well, everyone who writes php internals is for discussion
> of php internals only doesn't care and probably won't.
>
>
This is the kind of language we need to avoid. Don't accuse people of not
caring just because they don't agree with how to approach the issue.


>
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 5:49 PM Arvids Godjuks 
> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 11:31, Victor Bolshov 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello internals.
> > >
> > > In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> > > of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> > > to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> > > aggression.
> > >
> > > I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> > > the header of php.net website.
> > >
> > > Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> > > lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> > > still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> > > that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> > > the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
> > >
> > > This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> > > an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> > >  and their clear statement.
> > >
> > > Say NO to war!
> > >
> > >
> >
> > As someone from Baltics and living there still - yeah, colour be yellow
> and
> > blue all the way.
> >
> > But I also think we should leave php.net out of it - this is not a
> project
> > with a core tea - this is a very distributed project that probably
> touches
> > almost every single country on this planet.
> >
> > Another reason - just look what happened to the React's issue tracker:
> > https://github.com/facebook/react/issues  - you can bet your life on it
> > that this will happen to the PHP project as soon as there is anything on
> > this topic done. Does the project has resources to deal with it? I mean,
> > this is basically a DDoS that can be solved only by closing off issue
> > creation from public.
> >
> > It's just impractical and will ruin maintainers and contributors ability
> to
> > do their work for the foreseeable future.
> > --
> >
> > Arvīds Godjuks
> > +371 26 851 664
> > arvids.godj...@gmail.com
> > Telegram: @psihius https://t.me/psihius
> >
>


-- 
Chase Peeler
chasepee...@gmail.com

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Eugene Sidelnyk]

All the world currently talks about the situation in Ukraine. Everyone who
knows the truth are trying to help stop invasion. The main problem here is
that most of Russian people believe in Putin's political position. Moreover
they will have Instagram and Twitter blocked soon in Russia so that they
won't be able to know the real state of things.

Therefore our responsibility is to bring the truth to Russian people and
they will do the rest. PS. 70% of surveyed people support Putin. How else
we can inform them of what is really going on if not writing about it
everywhere?

If you, as PHP community, do not do anything about it, it would mean that
you don't care. Well, everyone who writes php internals is for discussion
of php internals only doesn't care and probably won't.



On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, 5:49 PM Arvids Godjuks 
wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 11:31, Victor Bolshov  wrote:
>
> > Hello internals.
> >
> > In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> > of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> > to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> > aggression.
> >
> > I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> > the header of php.net website.
> >
> > Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> > lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> > still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> > that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> > the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
> >
> > This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> > an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> >  and their clear statement.
> >
> > Say NO to war!
> >
> >
>
> As someone from Baltics and living there still - yeah, colour be yellow and
> blue all the way.
>
> But I also think we should leave php.net out of it - this is not a project
> with a core tea - this is a very distributed project that probably touches
> almost every single country on this planet.
>
> Another reason - just look what happened to the React's issue tracker:
> https://github.com/facebook/react/issues  - you can bet your life on it
> that this will happen to the PHP project as soon as there is anything on
> this topic done. Does the project has resources to deal with it? I mean,
> this is basically a DDoS that can be solved only by closing off issue
> creation from public.
>
> It's just impractical and will ruin maintainers and contributors ability to
> do their work for the foreseeable future.
> --
>
> Arvīds Godjuks
> +371 26 851 664
> arvids.godj...@gmail.com
> Telegram: @psihius https://t.me/psihius
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Arvids Godjuks]

On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 11:31, Victor Bolshov  wrote:

> Hello internals.
>
> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> aggression.
>
> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> the header of php.net website.
>
> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>
> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
>  and their clear statement.
>
> Say NO to war!
>
>

As someone from Baltics and living there still - yeah, colour be yellow and
blue all the way.

But I also think we should leave php.net out of it - this is not a project
with a core tea - this is a very distributed project that probably touches
almost every single country on this planet.

Another reason - just look what happened to the React's issue tracker:
https://github.com/facebook/react/issues  - you can bet your life on it
that this will happen to the PHP project as soon as there is anything on
this topic done. Does the project has resources to deal with it? I mean,
this is basically a DDoS that can be solved only by closing off issue
creation from public.

It's just impractical and will ruin maintainers and contributors ability to
do their work for the foreseeable future.
-- 

Arvīds Godjuks
+371 26 851 664
arvids.godj...@gmail.com
Telegram: @psihius https://t.me/psihius

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kalle Sommer Nielsen]

Den tor. 3. mar. 2022 kl. 11.54 skrev Christian Schneider
:
> Even if a project stays neutral on most topics does not mean there is not a 
> threshold where joining a wide-spread appeal or sign of solidarity is the 
> right thing to do.

Yeah and that same argument can be applied to both the examples I just
mentioned above. How many projects joined the BLM movement too by
making statements? And when will that be used as an argument to push
the PHP project to make statements on every world event?

> The question where you set that threshold is a different question.
> Personally I'd support a banner on the website but won't hold it against 
> people who think otherwise.

To me the question is rather binary, because like stated above, it can
be used as an argument to force a reason for why something should be
done. I understand the sentiment in the message trying to be conveyed,
but I don't agree with turning the project into such a forum.

-- 
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
ka...@php.net

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Christian Schneider]

Am 03.03.2022 um 10:11 schrieb Kalle Sommer Nielsen :
> Den tor. 3. mar. 2022 kl. 10.48 skrev Sergey Panteleev 
> :
>> 
>> I'd suggest making a PR with the News (press release) in web-php
>> and maybe discussing it already on GitHub,
>> since it would get more coverage and we can hear more opinions.
> 
> The moment you do that, you put the PHP project into making a stance
> on every politics and world events, like BLM, are we also now gonna
> have an LGBT banner too? No, the PHP project is not a place for such.

I don't think you do.

Even if a project stays neutral on most topics does not mean there is not a 
threshold where joining a wide-spread appeal or sign of solidarity is the right 
thing to do.

The question where you set that threshold is a different question.
Personally I'd support a banner on the website but won't hold it against people 
who think otherwise.

Disclosure: I'm Swiss, and even (in)famously off-hands Switzerland decided to 
join sanctions in this case ;-)

Regards,
- Chris

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kalle Sommer Nielsen]

Den tor. 3. mar. 2022 kl. 10.48 skrev Sergey Panteleev :
>
> I'd suggest making a PR with the News (press release) in web-php
> and maybe discussing it already on GitHub,
> since it would get more coverage and we can hear more opinions.

The moment you do that, you put the PHP project into making a stance
on every politics and world events, like BLM, are we also now gonna
have an LGBT banner too? No, the PHP project is not a place for such.

-- 
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
ka...@php.net

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Sergey Panteleev]

I'd suggest making a PR with the News (press release) in web-php
and maybe discussing it already on GitHub,
since it would get more coverage and we can hear more opinions.

But I'm very much afraid that this could lead to an uncontrolled flow of 
messages,
as it was recently in the github/feedback discussions [1].

If there are no objections to this option, let's try?


[1] https://github.com/github/feedback/discussions/12042

—
wbr,
Sergey Panteleev
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Victor Bolshov]

Even a simple sign of solidarity against the war is important, if this 
is something community can agree to, without having to fall into mutual 
hatred.


I personally would love to see a clear support for Ukraine, but if that 
will be causing endless debate I would give up on this in favor of a 
general anti-war statement, at least until it is clear to the vast 
majority of smart people here that Putin is a threat for humanity and 
civilization, and I am NOT exaggerating. Ukraine is currently the 
civilized world's outpost that is giving their lives to oppose madness 
and chaos.


On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 10:31, Sergey Panteleev  
wrote:

Hey all,

I'd like to add my 2c:

I agree that php.net is not the right place to express our personal 
citizenship.
It's better to use Twitter, Facebook, or another social network for 
these purposes.



If you believe that the PHP community is obliged to show solidarity 
on the php.net,

and not every person personally,
I suggest that instead of a banner we release a News on the main page.


Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia.
A lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda.
They still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators.
Seeing that these people, who have their respect, are against the 
war and for the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.


I can not answer for all Russian developers, but I can judge by 
myself and my social circle:
we're against the war, "military operation" or any other aggression, 
whatever you want to call it.


Also, colleagues from the IT industry have drafted an open letter to 
the national government [1-2].


In addition to highlighting the problem, we can also add these links:
in this case, developers from Russia will see, that not only people,
who have their respect do not support the war, but also their fellow 
countrymen.


[1] 

[2] 



—
wbr,
Sergey Panteleev

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Sergey Panteleev]

Hey all,

I'd like to add my 2c:

I agree that php.net is not the right place to express our personal citizenship.
It's better to use Twitter, Facebook, or another social network for these 
purposes.


If you believe that the PHP community is obliged to show solidarity on the 
php.net,
and not every person personally,
I suggest that instead of a banner we release a News on the main page.

>Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia.
>A lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda.
>They still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators.
>Seeing that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for 
>the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.

I can not answer for all Russian developers, but I can judge by myself and my 
social circle:
we're against the war, "military operation" or any other aggression, whatever 
you want to call it.

Also, colleagues from the IT industry have drafted an open letter to the 
national government [1-2].

In addition to highlighting the problem, we can also add these links:
in this case, developers from Russia will see, that not only people,
who have their respect do not support the war, but also their fellow countrymen.

[1] 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rSmclqedrhTASIsyXLOz39pU0WzV8b443au9X88Lx_c/edit
[2] 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jBJPwCkR6UfTF_6KnU6m5w3ViDj4076r_Bvd88UwCKg/edit

—
wbr,
Sergey Panteleev

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Andreas Heigl]

Hey Paul, All.

On 03.03.22 00:45, Paul Dragoonis wrote:

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 11:11 PM Paul Crovella 
wrote:


On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:08 PM Stanislav Malyshev 
wrote:


That said, if somebody were to design a logo version with Ukraine flag



In case anyone has use for it: https://svgshare.com/i/epJ.svg

Colors are #0057b7 and #ffd700, from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ukraine#Design, with a white
stroke.



Opinions aside: PHP, like many other OSS projects, has substantial amounts
of people in Russia and non-Russia. Fact.

Let's keep an OSS project focusing on the technology that we're building
here, and take politics out of the equation here, entirely.

Please can we go to the correct platforms such as Twitter, FB, LinkedIn,
and others, for such conversations, discussions, moralities, and debates?

We all love the PHP project, and let's not get it dragged into the mess
going on in the outside world.

OSS for many is a safe haven to sink your work and focus into, stress
relief, an outlet, and a place free from outside world problems; let's try
to healthily keep it that way, shall we?


OSS might not be the safe haven for everyone as some might have not on 
their radar. Think of the prominent cases of Stallman and Thorvals. OSS 
can only be a safe haven when we take action to make sure that they are 
actually safe.


And one of these actions can be to make it very clear that violence, 
aggression, intolerance and fake news have no place in this community. 
Not by saying so or being tolerant about them, but by explicitly showing 
that we want to be a safe haven.


And yes: Substantial parts of PHPs code are from Russian as well as from 
Ukranian developers. And some of the later ones currently are not able 
to contribute because they are right now, at this very moment, trying to 
defend their homes, their families and their lives against an illegal 
invasion from a foreign government.


So the PHP project has already been dragged into this mess. It is not a 
project outside of space and time. We all are the PHP project. And some 
of us are being forced to fear for their lives due to some dick wanting 
to show off.


Cheers

Andreas
--
  ,,,
 (o o)
+-ooO-(_)-Ooo-+
| Andreas Heigl   |
| mailto:andr...@heigl.org  N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" |
| https://andreas.heigl.org   |
+-+
| https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas   |
+-+


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Description: OpenPGP public key


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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Paul Dragoonis]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 11:11 PM Paul Crovella 
wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:08 PM Stanislav Malyshev 
> wrote:
> >
> > That said, if somebody were to design a logo version with Ukraine flag
> >
>
> In case anyone has use for it: https://svgshare.com/i/epJ.svg
>
> Colors are #0057b7 and #ffd700, from
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ukraine#Design, with a white
> stroke.
>

Opinions aside: PHP, like many other OSS projects, has substantial amounts
of people in Russia and non-Russia. Fact.

Let's keep an OSS project focusing on the technology that we're building
here, and take politics out of the equation here, entirely.

Please can we go to the correct platforms such as Twitter, FB, LinkedIn,
and others, for such conversations, discussions, moralities, and debates?

We all love the PHP project, and let's not get it dragged into the mess
going on in the outside world.

OSS for many is a safe haven to sink your work and focus into, stress
relief, an outlet, and a place free from outside world problems; let's try
to healthily keep it that way, shall we?

Nobody has to listen to me, but I really hope that you do.


>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Paul Crovella]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:08 PM Stanislav Malyshev  wrote:
>
> That said, if somebody were to design a logo version with Ukraine flag
>

In case anyone has use for it: https://svgshare.com/i/epJ.svg

Colors are #0057b7 and #ffd700, from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ukraine#Design, with a white
stroke.

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Stanislav Malyshev]

Hello all,

I do not know if anybody here knows much about me personally, but I was 
born in Ukraine, lived there for all my youth and my relatives and 
friends are still there. You can imagine my feelings about this horrible 
attack on Ukraine that is going on right now.


I am sincerely and wholeheartedly thankful to everybody supporting the 
people of Ukraine in this terrible time, either by speaking out or by 
helping materially, monetarily or otherwise. If you want to help more, 
please look here: 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1agAW4CQEdi5cDCSa8l8C5ez6Yflz5zaVIzMEgehqwq0/edit
or seek other charities that are helping Ukrainian people now. Your help 
is most appreciated.


That said, I am not sure whether it is a good idea to turn PHP site into 
a forum for political announcements. Even if they are of the most 
righteous and benevolent type. I am not exactly opposed to the idea, as 
I can not be opposed to any expression of support, but I feel it may not 
cause much good (certainly won't convince anybody, if the sights of 
rockets and shells destroying hospitals, kindergartens, churches, 
apartment buildings, maternity wards, and so on didn't) and there are 
better ways to express your support - such as contacting your local 
political representative, if you live in a democratic country, and/or 
using the links above, or donating your time and technical expertise to 
one of the relied efforts (I imagine some of them could use a skilled 
web developer).


That said, if somebody were to design a logo version with Ukraine flag 
and put it on PHP site, I don't think anybody in Ukraine would be 
offended by it...


Sorry if it sounds a bit confused, these are challenging times.
--
Stas Malyshev
smalys...@gmail.com

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Andreas Hennings]

On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 18:07, Chase Peeler  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 12:03 PM Alain D D Williams 
> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Mar 02, 2022 at 05:43:25PM +0100, Victor Bolshov wrote:
> > > Just one more thing: as of yesterday, in response to western sanctions
> > and
> > > supplies of letal arms to Ukraine from EU countries, Putin has ordered
> > > Russian nuclear forces to switch to a special alert regime, which means
> > they
> > > will be ready to strike at any moment. Anything that can help stop this
> > > insanity, is welcome, IMO.
> >
> > How Putin will react to a banner on the PHP web site, or any other action,
> > is
> > anybody's guess.
> >
> >
> I'm pretty confident I can guess how he will react: he won't.

Putin would not be the direct target of such a statement.
The target would be anybody who visits php.net.
These would be mostly developers, but this is better than nothing.

Let's keep in mind there are php developers in Russia, in Ukraine, and
also in China.
Those in Ukraine currently have to fear for their lives, and they need
(at least) our solidarity.
Those in Russia (and China) have to suffer internet censorship, and
they risk to be locked away if they speak up, they need a way out of
the bubble.
Thirdly, whataboutists and bothsideists in the rest of the world need
a friendly reminder, or rather a kick in the butt.

I am happy for any contribution that works in this direction.
Even if we only reach web developers.
If regular media is being censored, then sites like php.net have to
pick up a part of that responsibility.

And no, just "war is bad" is not enough.
In fact at this point I consider it Russian propaganda.

And to anybody who is afraid of some disruption and debate in this mailing list:
Think of the disruption it would cause if your house gets bombed, the
freedom in your country is threatened, your family has to flee the
country.

-- Andreas Hennings

>
>
> > I have put something on my own web site. It is an expression of solidarity
> > with
> > Ukraine - something to encourage them. It Putin/Russia notices it I suspect
> > that it will only invite a DDOS attack or similar - if they do anything at
> > all.
> >
> > The big question: should there be something on the PHP web site. Hard to
> > answer
> > as the discussion has shown. I would say "no" but encourage everyone who
> > has a
> > personal site to do so and to raise discussion with their employer about so
> > doing.
> >
> > Maybe also help financially (eg URL below), but beware: scammers will have
> > set
> > up sites like this:
> >
> > https://www.donateukraine.com/
> >
> > Personally: I am in my late 60s and this is bringing back unpleasant
> > memories
> > of my 20s when we were seriously concerned about impending destruction from
> > nuclear war.
> >
> > Hugs to all in these difficult times.
> >
> > --
> > Alain Williams
> > Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT
> > Lecturer.
> > +44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
> > Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information:
> > https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
> > #include 
> >
> > --
> > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> > To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
> >
>
> --
> Chase Peeler
> chasepee...@gmail.com

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Chase Peeler]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 12:03 PM Alain D D Williams 
wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 02, 2022 at 05:43:25PM +0100, Victor Bolshov wrote:
> > Just one more thing: as of yesterday, in response to western sanctions
> and
> > supplies of letal arms to Ukraine from EU countries, Putin has ordered
> > Russian nuclear forces to switch to a special alert regime, which means
> they
> > will be ready to strike at any moment. Anything that can help stop this
> > insanity, is welcome, IMO.
>
> How Putin will react to a banner on the PHP web site, or any other action,
> is
> anybody's guess.
>
>
I'm pretty confident I can guess how he will react: he won't.


> I have put something on my own web site. It is an expression of solidarity
> with
> Ukraine - something to encourage them. It Putin/Russia notices it I suspect
> that it will only invite a DDOS attack or similar - if they do anything at
> all.
>
> The big question: should there be something on the PHP web site. Hard to
> answer
> as the discussion has shown. I would say "no" but encourage everyone who
> has a
> personal site to do so and to raise discussion with their employer about so
> doing.
>
> Maybe also help financially (eg URL below), but beware: scammers will have
> set
> up sites like this:
>
> https://www.donateukraine.com/
>
> Personally: I am in my late 60s and this is bringing back unpleasant
> memories
> of my 20s when we were seriously concerned about impending destruction from
> nuclear war.
>
> Hugs to all in these difficult times.
>
> --
> Alain Williams
> Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT
> Lecturer.
> +44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
> Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information:
> https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
> #include 
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>

-- 
Chase Peeler
chasepee...@gmail.com

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kalle Sommer Nielsen]

Den ons. 2. mar. 2022 kl. 18.33 skrev Victor Bolshov :
> This is going to cause debate, I was sure about it. And if the community 
> agrees at least to state "NO WAR", that is already something.

PHP is not a media, it is an open source project. While our individual
contributors can choose to support a world event or condemn it, is
fully up to them. Some projects that was linked in this thread, like
Symfony who took a stance on the matter and it is in their right to do
and help with the resources they choose to do, but I don't think that
is a valid argument to force taking a stance here and change the
politics of the PHP project.

To reiterate, I understand where you are coming from but I don't agree
with forcing a political stance for the PHP project. So my stance will
not change on the matter, and I believe in neutrality from politics.

-- 
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
ka...@php.net

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Alain D D Williams]

On Wed, Mar 02, 2022 at 05:43:25PM +0100, Victor Bolshov wrote:
> Just one more thing: as of yesterday, in response to western sanctions and
> supplies of letal arms to Ukraine from EU countries, Putin has ordered
> Russian nuclear forces to switch to a special alert regime, which means they
> will be ready to strike at any moment. Anything that can help stop this
> insanity, is welcome, IMO.

How Putin will react to a banner on the PHP web site, or any other action, is
anybody's guess.

I have put something on my own web site. It is an expression of solidarity with
Ukraine - something to encourage them. It Putin/Russia notices it I suspect
that it will only invite a DDOS attack or similar - if they do anything at all.

The big question: should there be something on the PHP web site. Hard to answer
as the discussion has shown. I would say "no" but encourage everyone who has a
personal site to do so and to raise discussion with their employer about so
doing.

Maybe also help financially (eg URL below), but beware: scammers will have set
up sites like this:

https://www.donateukraine.com/

Personally: I am in my late 60s and this is bringing back unpleasant memories
of my 20s when we were seriously concerned about impending destruction from
nuclear war.

Hugs to all in these difficult times.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT 
Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: 
https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Victor Bolshov]

Just one more thing: as of yesterday, in response to western sanctions 
and supplies of letal arms to Ukraine from EU countries, Putin has 
ordered Russian nuclear forces to switch to a special alert regime, 
which means they will be ready to strike at any moment. Anything that 
can help stop this insanity, is welcome, IMO.


On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 17:33, Victor Bolshov  
wrote:
This is going to cause debate, I was sure about it. And if the 
community agrees at least to state "NO WAR", that is already 
something.


To provide more context on Putin's propaganda: he has been 
consistently putting more and more restrictions on nearly each and 
every independent media. I can only name one nation-wide 
radio-station - "Echo of Moscow", which has been deprived of their FM 
frequency as of today. There is 1 printed nation-wide newspaper 
"Novaya Gazeta" (editor-in-chief Dmitry Muratov was awarded Nobel 
Prize this year). Other noticeable media mostly have been claimed 
"foreign agents" which heavily impacts their operation. To name one 
thing, they have to have a preamble to every publication with a long 
disclaimer "this material was published by a foreign agent (actually 
much longer a utterly bureaucratic crap)". Also, other media are only 
available on internet. The russian government controls internet 
through their puppet RosKomNadzor which can block any website in 
Russia without even the need for a court hearing or an court order. A 
big radio-station "Silver Rain" have closed all their news and 
political shows as of today, because it's no longer allowed to say a 
word of truth in Russia.


The world has seen these patterns before, and we all know what the 
consequences of good people remaining silent were.




On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 17:12, Kalle Sommer Nielsen  
wrote:
Den ons. 2. mar. 2022 kl. 14.51 skrev Marco Pivetta 
mailto:ocram...@gmail.com>>:
 Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, 
as they're

 busy enough with butchering civilians over there.


I heavily agree with this matter, the PHP project should remain
neutral. Seeing this thread already makes me dread the idea of even
considering such, even if it is done with the purest of intentions.


Big -1 from me (and to all future proposals of similar political 
matter)


--
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
ka...@php.net 

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Victor Bolshov]

This is going to cause debate, I was sure about it. And if the 
community agrees at least to state "NO WAR", that is already something.


To provide more context on Putin's propaganda: he has been consistently 
putting more and more restrictions on nearly each and every independent 
media. I can only name one nation-wide radio-station - "Echo of 
Moscow", which has been deprived of their FM frequency as of today. 
There is 1 printed nation-wide newspaper "Novaya Gazeta" 
(editor-in-chief Dmitry Muratov was awarded Nobel Prize this year). 
Other noticeable media mostly have been claimed "foreign agents" which 
heavily impacts their operation. To name one thing, they have to have a 
preamble to every publication with a long disclaimer "this material was 
published by a foreign agent (actually much longer a utterly 
bureaucratic crap)". Also, other media are only available on internet. 
The russian government controls internet through their puppet 
RosKomNadzor which can block any website in Russia without even the 
need for a court hearing or an court order. A big radio-station "Silver 
Rain" have closed all their news and political shows as of today, 
because it's no longer allowed to say a word of truth in Russia.


The world has seen these patterns before, and we all know what the 
consequences of good people remaining silent were.




On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 17:12, Kalle Sommer Nielsen  
wrote:
Den ons. 2. mar. 2022 kl. 14.51 skrev Marco Pivetta 
mailto:ocram...@gmail.com>>:
 Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as 
they're

 busy enough with butchering civilians over there.


I heavily agree with this matter, the PHP project should remain
neutral. Seeing this thread already makes me dread the idea of even
considering such, even if it is done with the purest of intentions.


Big -1 from me (and to all future proposals of similar political 
matter)


--
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
ka...@php.net 

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kalle Sommer Nielsen]

Den ons. 2. mar. 2022 kl. 14.51 skrev Marco Pivetta :
> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're
> busy enough with butchering civilians over there.

I heavily agree with this matter, the PHP project should remain
neutral. Seeing this thread already makes me dread the idea of even
considering such, even if it is done with the purest of intentions.


Big -1 from me (and to all future proposals of similar political matter)

-- 
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
ka...@php.net

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[naitsirch]

Am 02-Mar-2022 16:02:41 +0100 schrieb der...@derickrethans.nl:
> On Wed, 2 Mar 2022, naitsi...@e.mail.de wrote:
> 
> > I only wanted to make clear, that if we start to support Ukraine as 
> > the victimized party in this conflict we have to do that in other 
> > conflicts, too.
> 
> This is a logical fallacy called whataboutery, and an invention of the 
> Soviet Union propaganda machine. I suggest you read up on that:
> 
> https://twitter.com/im_PULSE/status/1498373930314518528
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
> 
> cheers,
> Derick

No, it is about consistent and authentic reaction.

Best regards
Christian

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Derick Rethans]

On Wed, 2 Mar 2022, naitsi...@e.mail.de wrote:

> I only wanted to make clear, that if we start to support Ukraine as 
> the victimized party in this conflict we have to do that in other 
> conflicts, too.

This is a logical fallacy called whataboutery, and an invention of the 
Soviet Union propaganda machine. I suggest you read up on that:

https://twitter.com/im_PULSE/status/1498373930314518528
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

cheers,
Derick

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[naitsirch]

Am 02-Mar-2022 15:19:54 +0100 schrieb andr...@heigl.org:
> Hey.
>
> On 02.03.22 14:56, naitsi...@e.mail.de wrote:
> >
> >
> > Am 02-Mar-2022 13:51:07 +0100 schrieb ocram...@gmail.com:
> >>
> >> Hey Christian,
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM  wrote:
> >>> this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of 
> >>> nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against 
> >>> Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even 
> >>> earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get 
> >>> Ukriane on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine 
> >>> between Russia and the western.
> >>>
> >>> As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do 
> >>> not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never 
> >>> simple. Usually there's a long story.
> >>> Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for 
> >>> sure.
> >>>
> >>> Please do not start that.
> >>>
> >>> You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter, 
> >>> facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
> >>
> >> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as 
> >> they're busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
> >>
> >> Greets,
> >>
> >> Marco Pivetta
> >
> > Hi Marco,
> >
> > this is exactly what I meant. It leads to separation of the community and 
> > hate against each other. You judge my statement as Putin propaganda 
> > although I have not said I am supporting Putin or the war. I only wanted to 
> > make clear, that if we start to support Ukraine as the victimized party in 
> > this conflict we have to do that in other conflicts, too.
> >
> > Look at the Iraquis who were attacked by the USA, the Uyghurs in China, the 
> > poulation in Noth Korea or the war in Yemen. Thousands of people are dying 
> > there every year and nobody is raising his voice.
> The US attack against Iraq was ... debateable but is by now history.
> Yes: We perhaps should have taken a side at that time! We can learn from
> that!
>
> The other things you mention are state-internal affairs that are far
> from being OK! Don't get me wrong on that! But they do not qualify as
> invading a separate country! As an act of war.

The attack of the USA against Iraq wasn't internal. But apart of that, internal 
affairs can cost more people their life as an international war. Is your issue 
the political act of a war, or the death of humans?

> They are internal affairs
> and as such sadly qualify differently. And despite us having ideas about
> human rights etc taking sides in an internal affair always has a
> connotation of Colonialism. "We know it better". But in the case of
> Ukraine there is a clear aggressor that has invaded an independent
> country which is against all internationally agreed upon laws, rules and
> regulations. Not standing up against that silently tolerates that
> behaviour. Which is not something I like to endorse.
>
> And standing up against the injustice against the Ukraine does not
> negate the other injustices around the world. Whether that is the way
> women are being treated by the new Afghanistan government, the uigurs in
> China are treated, the whole mess in and around Israel or the way POC
> are treated in the US. And this totally incomplete list is in no way
> trying to compare these different things with one another.
> > Maybe I can give you an example to make clear what I mean: If the banner 
> > for the Ukraine is shown on php.net. I could request a banner for the 
> > people in Hong Kong who are suppressed by China, too. If you refuse it, it 
> > would be very unfair. If you say "yes" there should come more requests. 
> > Then php internals will have to create rules when php.net should show its 
> > solidarity and when not.
>
> The rule would be: Internal affairs are shit but they are exactly that:
> Internal affairs. A war of aggression (one country attacking another one
> without the justification of self-defence) IMO justifies solidarity with
> the attacked country.

Why does the killing of people by other people of the same country not justify 
solidary with that group? Sorry I cannot follow this point.
When the German regime killed millions of Jews during the Holocaust (sorry for 
taking that as an example) this was an (very horrible) internal affair. But it 
is not less terrible as the war in Ukraine (btw I am german).

>
> Cheers
>
> Andreas

Best regards
Christian

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Andreas Heigl]

Hey.

On 02.03.22 14:56, naitsi...@e.mail.de wrote:



Am 02-Mar-2022 13:51:07 +0100 schrieb ocram...@gmail.com:


Hey Christian,

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM  wrote:

this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of 
nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against Viktor 
Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even earlier, with 
the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get Ukriane on their side, 
stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia and the western.

As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do not 
think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never simple. 
Usually there's a long story.
Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for sure.

Please do not start that.

You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter, facebook or 
elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.


Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're 
busy enough with butchering civilians over there.

Greets,

Marco Pivetta


Hi Marco,

this is exactly what I meant. It leads to separation of the community and hate 
against each other. You judge my statement as Putin propaganda although I have 
not said I am supporting Putin or the war. I only wanted to make clear, that if 
we start to support Ukraine as the victimized party in this conflict we have to 
do that in other conflicts, too.

Look at the Iraquis who were attacked by the USA, the Uyghurs in China, the 
poulation in Noth Korea or the war in Yemen. Thousands of people are dying 
there every year and nobody is raising his voice.
The US attack against Iraq was ... debateable but is by now history. 
Yes: We perhaps should have taken a side at that time! We can learn from 
that!


The other things you mention are state-internal affairs that are far 
from being OK! Don't get me wrong on that! But they do not qualify as 
invading a separate country! As an act of war. They are internal affairs 
and as such sadly qualify differently. And despite us having ideas about 
human rights etc taking sides in an internal affair always has a 
connotation of Colonialism. "We know it better". But in the case of 
Ukraine there is a clear aggressor that has invaded an independent 
country which is against all internationally agreed upon laws, rules and 
regulations. Not standing up against that silently tolerates that 
behaviour. Which is not something I like to endorse.


And standing up against the injustice against the Ukraine does not 
negate the other injustices around the world. Whether that is the way 
women are being treated by the new Afghanistan government, the uigurs in 
China are treated, the whole mess in and around Israel or the way POC 
are treated in the US. And this totally incomplete list is in no way 
trying to compare these different things with one another.

Maybe I can give you an example to make clear what I mean: If the banner for the Ukraine 
is shown on php.net. I could request a banner for the people in Hong Kong who are 
suppressed by China, too. If you refuse it, it would be very unfair. If you say 
"yes" there should come more requests. Then php internals will have to create 
rules when php.net should show its solidarity and when not.


The rule would be: Internal affairs are shit but they are exactly that: 
Internal affairs. A war of aggression (one country attacking another one 
without the justification of self-defence) IMO justifies solidarity with 
the attacked country.


Cheers

Andreas

--
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 (o o)
+-ooO-(_)-Ooo-+
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| mailto:andr...@heigl.org  N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" |
| https://andreas.heigl.org   |
+-+
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+-+


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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Chase Peeler]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 8:34 AM Aaron Junker 
wrote:

> Hi all
>
> As I see this there is strong agreement against war, but not for taking a
> side on a conflict.
>
> So then why not showing a banner or something against war. No war or side
> in particular just for humanity and peace.
>
> I think that's something everyone could agree with.
>
> Let me know what you all think.
>

I don't agree with that. I think war is horrible and should be avoided at
all costs, but there are times it is justified.


>
> Best regards
> Aaron
> 
> From: Victor Bolshov 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 10:31:05 AM
> To: internals@lists.php.net 
> Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop
> Russian agression
>
> Hello internals.
>
> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> aggression.
>
> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> the header of php.net website.
>
> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>
> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
>
> Say NO to war!
>
>

-- 
Chase Peeler
chasepee...@gmail.com

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Michał Marcin Brzuchalski]

śr., 2 mar 2022 o 14:56  napisał(a):

>
>
> Am 02-Mar-2022 13:51:07 +0100 schrieb ocram...@gmail.com:
> >
> > Hey Christian,
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM  wrote:
> > > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out
> of nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
> Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
> earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get Ukriane
> on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia
> and the western.
> > >
> > > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I
> do not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
> simple. Usually there's a long story.
> > > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community
> for sure.
> > >
> > > Please do not start that.
> > >
> > > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
> facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
> >
> > Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as
> they're busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
> >
> > Greets,
> >
> > Marco Pivetta
>
> Hi Marco,
>
> this is exactly what I meant. It leads to separation of the community and
> hate against each other. You judge my statement as Putin propaganda
> although I have not said I am supporting Putin or the war. I only wanted to
> make clear, that if we start to support Ukraine as the victimized party in
> this conflict we have to do that in other conflicts, too.
>
> Look at the Iraquis who were attacked by the USA, the Uyghurs in China,
> the poulation in Noth Korea or the war in Yemen. Thousands of people are
> dying there every year and nobody is raising his voice.
>

In 7d almost 10 thousand died in Ukraine (including both sides). Not in a
year!
If you don't see this then I have no words.

--
Michał Marcin Brzuchalski

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Andreas Heigl]

Hey Aaron.

On 02.03.22 14:34, Aaron Junker wrote:

Hi all

As I see this there is strong agreement against war, but not for taking a side 
on a conflict.

So then why not showing a banner or something against war. No war or side in 
particular just for humanity and peace.

I think that's something everyone could agree with.

Let me know what you all think.


As previous posts here have show: there are strong proponents of the idea.

So to move forward with this I'd recommend to create a PR against the 
website-repo on github and we'll discuss the concrete implementation 
there and eventually merge and deploy it.


Provide a Screenshot of what it will look like and I'm sure we will have 
a fruitful discussion there.


Cheers

Andreas
--
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+-ooO-(_)-Ooo-+
| Andreas Heigl   |
| mailto:andr...@heigl.org  N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" |
| https://andreas.heigl.org   |
+-+
| https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas   |
+-+


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Description: OpenPGP public key


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[naitsirch]

Am 02-Mar-2022 13:51:07 +0100 schrieb ocram...@gmail.com:
> 
> Hey Christian,
> 
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM  wrote:
> > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of 
> > nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against 
> > Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even 
> > earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get Ukriane 
> > on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia 
> > and the western.
> > 
> > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do not 
> > think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never simple. 
> > Usually there's a long story.
> > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for 
> > sure.
> > 
> > Please do not start that.
> > 
> > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter, facebook 
> > or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
> 
> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're 
> busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
> 
> Greets,
> 
> Marco Pivetta 

Hi Marco,

this is exactly what I meant. It leads to separation of the community and hate 
against each other. You judge my statement as Putin propaganda although I have 
not said I am supporting Putin or the war. I only wanted to make clear, that if 
we start to support Ukraine as the victimized party in this conflict we have to 
do that in other conflicts, too.

Look at the Iraquis who were attacked by the USA, the Uyghurs in China, the 
poulation in Noth Korea or the war in Yemen. Thousands of people are dying 
there every year and nobody is raising his voice.

Maybe I can give you an example to make clear what I mean: If the banner for 
the Ukraine is shown on php.net. I could request a banner for the people in 
Hong Kong who are suppressed by China, too. If you refuse it, it would be very 
unfair. If you say "yes" there should come more requests. Then php internals 
will have to create rules when php.net should show its solidarity and when not.

I hope you understand my point better, now.

Best regards
Christian

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Michał Marcin Brzuchalski]

śr., 2 mar 2022 o 14:34 Aaron Junker  napisał(a):

> Hi all
>
> As I see this there is strong agreement against war, but not for taking a
> side on a conflict.
>
> So then why not showing a banner or something against war. No war or side
> in particular just for humanity and peace.
>
> I think that's something everyone could agree with.
>
> Let me know what you all think.
>

I wanted to express it by an example but cannot find better words which
took me almost 15m, so I'll try to use simple words instead.
No. IMHO that's not enough.

--
Michał Marcin Brzuchalski

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Michał Marcin Brzuchalski]

śr., 2 mar 2022 o 14:00 Andreas Heigl  napisał(a):

> Hey All
>
> On 02.03.22 13:50, Marco Pivetta wrote:
> > Hey Christian,
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM  wrote:
> >
> >> this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of
> >> nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
> >> Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
> >> earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get
> Ukriane
> >> on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between
> Russia
> >> and the western.
> >>
> >> As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do
> >> not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
> >> simple. Usually there's a long story.
> >> Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for
> >> sure.
> >>
> >> Please do not start that.
> >>
> >> You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
> >> facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
> >>
> >
> > Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as
> they're
> > busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
>
> Thanks Marco!
>
> Standing up against bullies is something that this community so far has
> been great at.
>
> Taking no side in a political conflict means taking the side of the
> bully. And THAT will separate the community!
>
> And taking the side of Ukraine does not make other conflicts less valid
> or cruel. It's standing up against injustice.
>

Thanks!

I do not agree to do nothing!
If this could reach anyone through Putin's propaganda, I'd say it was worth
it!
I'm pretty sure it can be explained that the support was spread because of
the clearly blatant war crimes against the Ukrainian people and totally
unjustified aggression.

--
Michał Marcin Brzuchalski

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Aaron Junker]

Hi all

As I see this there is strong agreement against war, but not for taking a side 
on a conflict.

So then why not showing a banner or something against war. No war or side in 
particular just for humanity and peace.

I think that's something everyone could agree with.

Let me know what you all think.

Best regards
Aaron

From: Victor Bolshov 
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 10:31:05 AM
To: internals@lists.php.net 
Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian 
agression

Hello internals.

In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
aggression.

I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
the header of php.net website.

Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.

This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
<https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.

Say NO to war!

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Andreas Heigl]

Hey All

On 02.03.22 13:50, Marco Pivetta wrote:

Hey Christian,

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM  wrote:


this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of
nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get Ukriane
on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia
and the western.

As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do
not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
simple. Usually there's a long story.
Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for
sure.

Please do not start that.

You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.



Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're
busy enough with butchering civilians over there.


Thanks Marco!

Standing up against bullies is something that this community so far has 
been great at.


Taking no side in a political conflict means taking the side of the 
bully. And THAT will separate the community!


And taking the side of Ukraine does not make other conflicts less valid 
or cruel. It's standing up against injustice.


Cheers

Andreas
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| mailto:andr...@heigl.org  N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" |
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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Michał Marcin Brzuchalski]

śr., 2 mar 2022 o 13:51 Marco Pivetta  napisał(a):

> Hey Christian,
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM  wrote:
>
> > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of
> > nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
> > Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
> > earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get
> Ukriane
> > on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia
> > and the western.
> >
> > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do
> > not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
> > simple. Usually there's a long story.
> > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for
> > sure.
> >
> > Please do not start that.
> >
> > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
> > facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
> >
>
> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're
> busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
>

+1 full support, you got my keoboard.

Cheers,
Michał Marcin Brzuchalski

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Dan Ackroyd]

Hi Victor,

I have strong feelings about the war and that people should be taking
whatever personal action they can (check my pinned tweet, @MrDanack),
but:

i) PHP Internals is for discussion of PHP internals.

ii) We have contributors on both sides of the conflict. There are also
many other causes that people can or should be supporting. Having
conversations about what position the PHP project should take for
reach of those causes is a conversation that takes away time + energy
from PHP.

iii) Adding flags help when issues are little known or obscure, but
aren't useful when a cause is well known. Except maybe make people
feel a little bit better about "having done something".

It possible for projects many fewer contributors than PHP does to
"speak with a single voice". E.g. there appear to be 3 main
contributors to JUnit. But projects the size of PHP need to either
stay apolitical or to have a strong executive team that can make
decisions on behalf of the project.

I do urge everyone to take effective action that they can personally
do themselves, but the suggestion is not likely to help, and is likely
to turn a shouting match very quickly.

cheers
Dan
Ack

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Marco Pivetta]

Hey Christian,

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM  wrote:

> this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of
> nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
> Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
> earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get Ukriane
> on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia
> and the western.
>
> As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do
> not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
> simple. Usually there's a long story.
> Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for
> sure.
>
> Please do not start that.
>
> You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
> facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
>

Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're
busy enough with butchering civilians over there.

Greets,

Marco Pivetta

http://twitter.com/Ocramius

http://ocramius.github.io/

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[naitsirch]

> 
> Von: naitsi...@e.mail.de 
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 2. März 2022, 12:16
> An: andr...@heigl.org; internals@lists.php.net; crocodil...@gmail.com
> Betreff: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop 
> Russian agression
> 
> Am 02-Mar-2022 11:39:01 +0100 schrieb andr...@heigl.org:
> > Hey All
> >
> > On 02.03.22 11:16, Aaron Junker wrote:
> > > I'm not an internal, but I support this idea.
> > > 
> > > From: Lynn 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 10:36:32 AM
> > > To: Victor Bolshov 
> > > Cc: PHP internals 
> > > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop 
> > > Russian agression
> > >
> > > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:31 AM Victor Bolshov 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hello internals.
> > >>
> > >> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> > >> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> > >> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> > >> aggression.
> > >>
> > >> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> > >> the header of php.net website.
> > >>
> > >> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> > >> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> > >> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> > >> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> > >> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
> > >>
> > >> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> > >> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> > >> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
> > >>
> > >> Say NO to war!
> > >>
> > >
> > > +100, Symfony has also added a banner on the front page that links to
> > > https://symfony.com/blog/symfony-stands-with-ukraine
> >
> > I'd be in favour of the idea as well.
> >
> > Best would be though to create a PR against the
> > https://github.com/php/web-php repo.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Andreas
> 
> I'd support this, if there will be added flags of all countries where armed 
> conflicts are going on. There's a list on Wikipedia[1] were those are shown.
> Otherwise the people in those areas are discriminated.
> 
> > >> A lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda.
> 
> Do you have any numbers?
> 
> PHP's community is very diverse. Starting to support one party of the 
> conflict will create separation of the community. And in future political 
> conflicts PHP will have to take sides, too. Which leads to more separation.
> Please don't start that now. Or we will get in trouble in the future.
> 
> Best regards
> Christian
> 
> [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts
> 
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
> 

Hi Aaron,

Am 02-Mar-2022 12:58:49 +0100 schrieb aaron.jun...@outlook.com:
> Hi Christian
> 
> > I'd support this, if there will be added flags of all countries where armed 
> > conflicts are going on. There's a list on Wikipedia[1] were those are shown.
> > Otherwise the people in those areas are discriminated.
> 
> You have a valid point, however it's not always clear which side is "right" 
> and which is "wrong", as in Ukraine, Russia just invaded Ukraine, without any 
> right to do that.

this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of 
nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against Viktor 
Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even earlier, with 
the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get Ukriane on their side, 
stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia and the western.

As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do not 
think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never simple. 
Usually there's a long story.
Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for sure.

Please do not start that.

You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter, facebook or 
elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.

> 
> And for certain conflicts only showing a flag could provocate some people.
> 
> Best regards
> Aaron
> 

Best regards
Christian

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Aaron Junker]

Hi Christian

> I'd support this, if there will be added flags of all countries where armed 
> conflicts are going on. There's a list on Wikipedia[1] were those are shown.
> Otherwise the people in those areas are discriminated.

You have a valid point, however it's not always clear which side is "right" and 
which is "wrong", as in Ukraine, Russia just invaded Ukraine, without any right 
to do that.

And for certain conflicts only showing a flag could provocate some people.

Best regards
Aaron


Von: naitsi...@e.mail.de 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 2. März 2022, 12:16
An: andr...@heigl.org; internals@lists.php.net; crocodil...@gmail.com
Betreff: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop 
Russian agression



Am 02-Mar-2022 11:39:01 +0100 schrieb andr...@heigl.org:
> Hey All
>
> On 02.03.22 11:16, Aaron Junker wrote:
> > I'm not an internal, but I support this idea.
> > 
> > From: Lynn 
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 10:36:32 AM
> > To: Victor Bolshov 
> > Cc: PHP internals 
> > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop 
> > Russian agression
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:31 AM Victor Bolshov 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hello internals.
> >>
> >> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> >> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> >> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> >> aggression.
> >>
> >> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> >> the header of php.net website.
> >>
> >> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> >> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> >> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> >> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> >> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
> >>
> >> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> >> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> >> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
> >>
> >> Say NO to war!
> >>
> >
> > +100, Symfony has also added a banner on the front page that links to
> > https://symfony.com/blog/symfony-stands-with-ukraine
>
> I'd be in favour of the idea as well.
>
> Best would be though to create a PR against the
> https://github.com/php/web-php repo.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andreas

I'd support this, if there will be added flags of all countries where armed 
conflicts are going on. There's a list on Wikipedia[1] were those are shown.
Otherwise the people in those areas are discriminated.

> >> A lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda.

Do you have any numbers?

PHP's community is very diverse. Starting to support one party of the conflict 
will create separation of the community. And in future political conflicts PHP 
will have to take sides, too. Which leads to more separation.
Please don't start that now. Or we will get in trouble in the future.

Best regards
Christian


[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[naitsirch]

Am 02-Mar-2022 11:39:01 +0100 schrieb andr...@heigl.org:
> Hey All
> 
> On 02.03.22 11:16, Aaron Junker wrote:
> > I'm not an internal, but I support this idea.
> > 
> > From: Lynn 
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 10:36:32 AM
> > To: Victor Bolshov 
> > Cc: PHP internals 
> > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop 
> > Russian agression
> > 
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:31 AM Victor Bolshov 
> > wrote:
> > 
> >> Hello internals.
> >>
> >> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> >> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> >> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> >> aggression.
> >>
> >> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> >> the header of php.net website.
> >>
> >> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> >> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> >> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> >> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> >> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
> >>
> >> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> >> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> >> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
> >>
> >> Say NO to war!
> >>
> > 
> > +100, Symfony has also added a banner on the front page that links to
> > https://symfony.com/blog/symfony-stands-with-ukraine
> 
> I'd be in favour of the idea as well.
> 
> Best would be though to create a PR against the 
> https://github.com/php/web-php repo.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andreas

I'd support this, if there will be added flags of all countries where armed 
conflicts are going on. There's a list on Wikipedia[1] were those are shown.
Otherwise the people in those areas are discriminated.

> >> A lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda.

Do you have any numbers?

PHP's community is very diverse. Starting to support one party of the conflict 
will create separation of the community. And in future political conflicts PHP 
will have to take sides, too. Which leads to more separation.
Please don't start that now. Or we will get in trouble in the future.

Best regards
Christian


[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Andreas Heigl]

Hey All

On 02.03.22 11:16, Aaron Junker wrote:

I'm not an internal, but I support this idea.

From: Lynn 
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 10:36:32 AM
To: Victor Bolshov 
Cc: PHP internals 
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop 
Russian agression

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:31 AM Victor Bolshov 
wrote:


Hello internals.

In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
aggression.

I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
the header of php.net website.

Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.

This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
<https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.

Say NO to war!



+100, Symfony has also added a banner on the front page that links to
https://symfony.com/blog/symfony-stands-with-ukraine


I'd be in favour of the idea as well.

Best would be though to create a PR against the 
https://github.com/php/web-php repo.


Cheers

Andreas
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+-ooO-(_)-Ooo-+
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| mailto:andr...@heigl.org  N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" |
| https://andreas.heigl.org   |
+-+
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+-+


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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Aaron Junker]

I'm not an internal, but I support this idea.

From: Lynn 
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 10:36:32 AM
To: Victor Bolshov 
Cc: PHP internals 
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop 
Russian agression

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:31 AM Victor Bolshov 
wrote:

> Hello internals.
>
> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> aggression.
>
> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> the header of php.net website.
>
> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>
> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> <https://junit.org/junit5/> and their clear statement.
>
> Say NO to war!
>

+100, Symfony has also added a banner on the front page that links to
https://symfony.com/blog/symfony-stands-with-ukraine

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Lynn]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:31 AM Victor Bolshov 
wrote:

> Hello internals.
>
> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> aggression.
>
> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> the header of php.net website.
>
> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>
> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
>  and their clear statement.
>
> Say NO to war!
>

+100, Symfony has also added a banner on the front page that links to
https://symfony.com/blog/symfony-stands-with-ukraine

[PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Victor Bolshov]

Hello internals.

In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people 
of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have 
to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian 
aggression.


I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to 
the header of php.net website.


Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A 
lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They 
still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing 
that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for 
the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.


This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing 
an attack on humanity itself. Take example from 
 and their clear statement.


Say NO to war!