[JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Vincent Harcq

http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-03-2002/jw-0326-awards-p3.html


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Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Yannick Menager

Erm. quite honestly, those guys at Javaworld must have been drunk 
when they made those awards. I mean, JBoss is quite good, and I'm using 
it, but comparing JBoss 2.4.x and Weblogic 6.1 is ridiculous, they're 
not even in the same league, as 2.4 doesn't even has clustering 
support... If they were talking about 3.0, at least, I could understand 
but saying 2.4 is better than wls 6.x and websphere is really streching 
the limits of imagination.

Vincent Harcq wrote:

http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-03-2002/jw-0326-awards-p3.html


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Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Luke Taylor

Yannick Menager wrote:
 Erm. quite honestly, those guys at Javaworld must have been drunk 
 when they made those awards. I mean, JBoss is quite good, and I'm using 
 it, but comparing JBoss 2.4.x and Weblogic 6.1 is ridiculous, they're 
 not even in the same league, as 2.4 doesn't even has clustering 
 support... If they were talking about 3.0, at least, I could understand 
 but saying 2.4 is better than wls 6.x and websphere is really streching 
 the limits of imagination.
 
Well that just depends on what your criteria are for measuring what is
better does it not? Better to develop with, better if you want to 
customize it,
better value for money, better if you aren't interested in clustering 
(like 95% of users), better if you want to be able to debug your code 
properly? I don't see it as being such a big strech [sic] of the 
imagination.

Luke.

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Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Yannick Menager

I think some people might get offended about my last message, I can 
imagine the flame throwers starting up *grin* But I want to explain why 
I was shocked (in a negative way) about that javaworld award.

Unless I mis-read, that award was for BEST application server, comparing 
it to BEA weblogic or Websphere I've been working on J2EE 
environment as a freelancer for quite some time, and I've used JBoss 
2.4.x, 3.0beta, Weblogic 5.x, 6.x

I must admit until wls 6.0, I didn't even rate weblogic as a enterprise 
level application server (because of lack of distributed transactions 
and the REALLY crappy JMS implementation), but version 6.x solved most 
of those issues. Now, JBoss is a very nice application server, and has 
some really cool feature you don't find in many app server ( dynamic 
proxies for example, I have having to generate stubs for wls *arg* ), 
but for an enterprise, scalability is one of the main requirements, and 
JBoss 2.4 lacks greatly in those areas. Of course, JBoss has some 
advantages, as the price ( for those who don't know, application servers 
like wls costs like 15000USD per CPU, at least time I saw... or was it 
iPlanet ? well, anyway, they cost a bundle ). But saying that JBoss can 
do everything a commercial appserver like wls, is to raise expectations 
in such a way that it can actually harm JBoss If some people have 
high requirements in terms of scalability and fault tolerance, and 
decide to use JBoss after seeing this article, they'll run in big 
trouble when they find out the differences. They'll have to switch to 
another application server and probably won't ever want to hear about 
JBoss ever again. You will go back to them in a few months and say But 
now our new version 3.0 has all the scalability and features you 
needed, but they won't listen because JBoss's credibility has been shot 
to pieces. Raising expectations beyond what can be delivered is a very 
bad ideia in IT

I hope you'll all consider this as constructive criticism and will keep 
the flame throwers away :)

And I apologise for the last email being so lacking in diplomacy :)

Vincent Harcq wrote:

http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-03-2002/jw-0326-awards-p3.html


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Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Yannick Menager

Yes, that is true, but we are talking about J2EE application server  Java 2 
_enterprise_ edition and for such a server requires at least
clustering support ( even though I must admit weblogic 5.x didn't even reach those 
basic requirements as they didn't support distributed transactions ).
I would not pronouce myself and how JBoss 3.0 compares with wls 6.0 or websphere, 
since 3.0 isn't finished yet. But the 2.4 series isn't in the same category
as application servers like those mentioned.


Well that just depends on what your criteria are for measuring what is
better does it not? Better to develop with, better if you want to 
customize it,
better value for money, better if you aren't interested in clustering 
(like 95% of users), better if you want to be able to debug your code 
properly? I don't see it as being such a big strech [sic] of the 
imagination.
Yannick Menager wrote:
 Erm. quite honestly, those guys at Javaworld must have been drunk 
 when they made those awards. I mean, JBoss is quite good, and I'm using 
 it, but comparing JBoss 2.4.x and Weblogic 6.1 is ridiculous, they're 
 not even in the same league, as 2.4 doesn't even has clustering 
 support... If they were talking about 3.0, at least, I could understand 
 but saying 2.4 is better than wls 6.x and websphere is really streching 
 the limits of imagination.




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Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Luke Taylor

Yannick Menager wrote:
 
...

 But saying that JBoss can 
 do everything a commercial appserver like wls, is to raise expectations 
 in such a way that it can actually harm JBoss If some people have 
 high requirements in terms of scalability and fault tolerance, and 
 decide to use JBoss after seeing this article, they'll run in big 
 trouble when they find out the differences. 

I disagree here too. In my experince many clients find out exactly the 
opposite - that they've been sold a huge capacity, 
dual-clustered-weblogic-on-sun-E99-boxes-with-replicated-oracle-db 
 setup for a system that could be run on a single decent specced box 
running open source server software for a *miniscule* fraction of the 
price, usually because of the vested interests/commission of the 
software companies they were dealing with.

Nobody should deploy on anything unless they've done realistic tests of 
the system with a realisitic simulation of the expected load. They 
should evaluate JBoss the same as any other server - if it fits their 
needs then they save a packet.

Luke.


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Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Luke Taylor

Yannick Menager wrote:
  Yes, that is true, but we are talking about J2EE application server 
  Java 2 _enterprise_ edition

Ah, the dreaded e-word. OK, so what's best depends on the 
size/requirements of your enterprise :).

But if you mean enterprise as in bold and enterprising, as opposed to 
  another dull company or marketing-bs like Inprise - Integrating the 
Enterprise, then I reckon JBoss would definately win hands down.

Luke.

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Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Peter Fagerlund

on 28-03-2 00.25, Yannick Menager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 keep the flame throwers away :)

Listen - .
..
..







































Once 
-I was young 
- a long time ago 
- true 
- when complaining 
- always have a suggestion for solution
- otherwise U are part of the problem ...

clear ! ... ? ...

/p


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Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Yannick Menager

  Yes, of course it depends it the company's requirement, and also on 
the design of the system. If the whole architecture is screwed up, no 
matter how good the application server is, it won't cut it. And off 
course JBoss has a major price advantage ( My own company's servers are 
running on JBoss 2.4.4 on linux, and I'm the one who put them there, but 
my company's requirements are not the same my company's customers... ). 
The problem is that from what I got from the whole article, is that it 
doesn't just say JBoss is a very good app server, it says it's THE BEST 
 I quote '
Though a free offering, JBoss quashes the old adage that you get what 
you pay for.

to me IMO that sounds like saying that JBoss can do everything all the 
other app servers can do, which is not the case, and not just talking of 
the clustering capacities, for example
Certificate based authentication for the web server doesn't seem to work 
as far as I could find. Maybe that is not the message that was being 
attempted to be sent, but I believe that's the message the whole thing 
sent through. Like I mentioned in the other email, it's a question of 
expectations. and that kind of award bumps up ALOT people's expectation 
alot. And when it comes to this kind of products, you don't get many 
chances to win people's hearts. If you burn them once, you probably 
won't manage to ever convince them to even bother trying again. If that 
award had been for 3.0, It would have been quite ok, but 2.4 . erm...


Luke Taylor wrote:

 Yannick Menager wrote:
 
 ...

 But saying that JBoss can do everything a commercial appserver like 
 wls, is to raise expectations in such a way that it can actually harm 
 JBoss If some people have high requirements in terms of 
 scalability and fault tolerance, and decide to use JBoss after seeing 
 this article, they'll run in big trouble when they find out the 
 differences. 


 I disagree here too. In my experince many clients find out exactly the 
 opposite - that they've been sold a huge capacity, 
 dual-clustered-weblogic-on-sun-E99-boxes-with-replicated-oracle-db 
  setup for a system that could be run on a single decent specced box 
 running open source server software for a *miniscule* fraction of the 
 price, usually because of the vested interests/commission of the 
 software companies they were dealing with.

 Nobody should deploy on anything unless they've done realistic tests 
 of the system with a realisitic simulation of the expected load. They 
 should evaluate JBoss the same as any other server - if it fits their 
 needs then they save a packet.

 Luke.





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Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Yannick Menager

That's absolutely true. I must admit my point of view when it comes to 
enterprise is more in the area of large distributed system.. Like for 
example Deutsche Bank trading systems are all J2EE based, and 
*unfortunatly* initially based on weblogic 5.x. *arg* I won't tell 
you how much suffering that pile of [CENSORED] brought me *sigh* But for 
that kind of mission critical systems, there's no comparison between 
weblogic 6.x and JBoss 2.4. Part of the system has requirements that 
almost aproach real time, and any downtime cost them ALOT of money... 
and when i say ALOT, i really mean ALOT  *grin*

But like you said, it is really a question of what are the requirements. 
The requirements of a major investment bank or a telecom are not the 
same as a mom-and-pop ISP. However I still find the award as pushing too 
much the message that JBoss is the wonder thing that does everything all 
other app servers do.

Luke Taylor wrote:

 Yannick Menager wrote:
  Yes, that is true, but we are talking about J2EE application server 
 
  Java 2 _enterprise_ edition

 Ah, the dreaded e-word. OK, so what's best depends on the 
 size/requirements of your enterprise :).

 But if you mean enterprise as in bold and enterprising, as opposed 
 to  another dull company or marketing-bs like Inprise - Integrating 
 the Enterprise, then I reckon JBoss would definately win hands down.

 Luke.




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Fwd: Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Jeff Tulley

One thing to consider with the clustering argument is that there are
very many ways to skin that cat.  I can get plain-jane stand-alone
Tomcat to scale sufficiently, and without too much work.  I guess once
you get to distributed transactions, you need something better, that
built-in clustering would support.  But, for simple scaling / load
balancing and typically including session affinity, there are approaches
that can be taken without needing built-in clustering support.  (Read
Bill Burke's article for one way to do it - there are many).  What that
gets you is truly the 95%, even including enterprises.

WebLogic and WebSphere are good products, but that whole
price/performance thing makes JBoss better in my mind.

 Yannick Menager [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3/27/02 4:40:33 PM 
Yes, that is true, but we are talking about J2EE application server
 Java 2 _enterprise_ edition and for such a server requires at
least
clustering support ( even though I must admit weblogic 5.x didn't even
reach those basic requirements as they didn't support distributed
transactions ).
I would not pronouce myself and how JBoss 3.0 compares with wls 6.0 or
websphere, since 3.0 isn't finished yet. But the 2.4 series isn't in the
same category
as application servers like those mentioned.


Well that just depends on what your criteria are for measuring what
is
better does it not? Better to develop with, better if you want to 
customize it,
better value for money, better if you aren't interested in clustering

(like 95% of users), better if you want to be able to debug your code

properly? I don't see it as being such a big strech [sic] of the 
imagination.
Yannick Menager wrote:
 Erm. quite honestly, those guys at Javaworld must have been
drunk 
 when they made those awards. I mean, JBoss is quite good, and I'm
using 
 it, but comparing JBoss 2.4.x and Weblogic 6.1 is ridiculous,
they're 
 not even in the same league, as 2.4 doesn't even has clustering 
 support... If they were talking about 3.0, at least, I could
understand 
 but saying 2.4 is better than wls 6.x and websphere is really
streching 
 the limits of imagination.




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Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Luke Taylor

Peter Fagerlund wrote:
 on 28-03-2 00.25, Yannick Menager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
keep the flame throwers away :)
 
 
 Listen - .
 ..
 ..
 
Morse code?  ?

Could be a flamethrower :)

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Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Luke Taylor

Yannick Menager wrote:
  ...
  Like I mentioned in the other email, it's a question of
 expectations. and that kind of award bumps up ALOT people's expectation 
 alot. And when it comes to this kind of products, you don't get many 
 chances to win people's hearts. If you burn them once, you probably 
 won't manage to ever convince them to even bother trying again. If that 
 award had been for 3.0, It would have been quite ok, but 2.4 . erm...
 

My point about checking the platform out properly before deploying on it 
was
that nobody should get burnt by something like this. No self respecting
enterprise is likely to suddenly decide to deploy on JBoss purely on the
basis of some Javaworlds award. They will take the time to evaluate it's 
capabilities like any other server. So I don't see there being any 
sudden nasty surprises - many large organizations are aware of it 
already, often using it in development or for internal systems and are 
keeping an eye on it for the future.

I'm not arguing about the features of one app. server over another, 
largely 'cos I don't have an in-depth knowledge of them all - I haven't 
used Weblogic since version 5 which, as you say, was dreadful.
I just don't see why the criteria should be the ones you mention.

Luke.


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Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Jason Dillon

Isn't THE BEST determined in this case by user votes... so it is 
always going to be scewed twords the varing oppion of the subset of 
actual users of the product who took the time to vote, and more so by 
the people who registered the product for voting in the first place.

THE BEST has different meaning to different people who have different 
needs and different design goals.  There is never going to be a product 
labled THE BEST which will fit neatly into each possible usage.  It is 
a genaral term which shows that out of the voting polutation, they 
believe that out of the candidates, JBoss is THE BEST.

People will have to use the product to really understand and evaluate 
how it fits their needs.  Anyone who is going about designing a product 
based soly on THE BEST of any category without taking into account 
their needs and requirements is already on the road to failure.

Lets get on with life, get back to work and stop this annoying thread.

--jason


Yannick Menager wrote:

  Yes, of course it depends it the company's requirement, and also on 
 the design of the system. If the whole architecture is screwed up, no 
 matter how good the application server is, it won't cut it. And off 
 course JBoss has a major price advantage ( My own company's servers 
 are running on JBoss 2.4.4 on linux, and I'm the one who put them 
 there, but my company's requirements are not the same my company's 
 customers... ). The problem is that from what I got from the whole 
 article, is that it doesn't just say JBoss is a very good app server, 
 it says it's THE BEST  I quote '
 Though a free offering, JBoss quashes the old adage that you get what 
 you pay for.

 to me IMO that sounds like saying that JBoss can do everything all the 
 other app servers can do, which is not the case, and not just talking 
 of the clustering capacities, for example
 Certificate based authentication for the web server doesn't seem to 
 work as far as I could find. Maybe that is not the message that was 
 being attempted to be sent, but I believe that's the message the whole 
 thing sent through. Like I mentioned in the other email, it's a 
 question of expectations. and that kind of award bumps up ALOT 
 people's expectation alot. And when it comes to this kind of products, 
 you don't get many chances to win people's hearts. If you burn them 
 once, you probably won't manage to ever convince them to even bother 
 trying again. If that award had been for 3.0, It would have been quite 
 ok, but 2.4 . erm...


 Luke Taylor wrote:

 Yannick Menager wrote:
 
 ...

 But saying that JBoss can do everything a commercial appserver like 
 wls, is to raise expectations in such a way that it can actually 
 harm JBoss If some people have high requirements in terms of 
 scalability and fault tolerance, and decide to use JBoss after 
 seeing this article, they'll run in big trouble when they find out 
 the differences. 



 I disagree here too. In my experince many clients find out exactly 
 the opposite - that they've been sold a huge capacity, 
 dual-clustered-weblogic-on-sun-E99-boxes-with-replicated-oracle-db 
  setup for a system that could be run on a single decent specced box 
 running open source server software for a *miniscule* fraction of the 
 price, usually because of the vested interests/commission of the 
 software companies they were dealing with.

 Nobody should deploy on anything unless they've done realistic tests 
 of the system with a realisitic simulation of the expected load. They 
 should evaluate JBoss the same as any other server - if it fits their 
 needs then they save a packet.

 Luke.





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Re: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Yannick Menager

Oh, I *did* fail to notice the awards were based on user votes, now I 
understand much better Well, anyway that's a good point ( the back 
to work, that is ), I'll follow that thought :)

Jason Dillon wrote:

 Isn't THE BEST determined in this case by user votes... so it is 
 always going to be scewed twords the varing oppion of the subset of 
 actual users of the product who took the time to vote, and more so by 
 the people who registered the product for voting in the first place.

 THE BEST has different meaning to different people who have 
 different needs and different design goals.  There is never going to 
 be a product labled THE BEST which will fit neatly into each 
 possible usage.  It is a genaral term which shows that out of the 
 voting polutation, they believe that out of the candidates, JBoss is 
 THE BEST.

 People will have to use the product to really understand and evaluate 
 how it fits their needs.  Anyone who is going about designing a 
 product based soly on THE BEST of any category without taking into 
 account their needs and requirements is already on the road to failure.

 Lets get on with life, get back to work and stop this annoying thread.

 --jason


 Yannick Menager wrote:

  Yes, of course it depends it the company's requirement, and also on 
 the design of the system. If the whole architecture is screwed up, no 
 matter how good the application server is, it won't cut it. And off 
 course JBoss has a major price advantage ( My own company's servers 
 are running on JBoss 2.4.4 on linux, and I'm the one who put them 
 there, but my company's requirements are not the same my company's 
 customers... ). The problem is that from what I got from the whole 
 article, is that it doesn't just say JBoss is a very good app server, 
 it says it's THE BEST  I quote '
 Though a free offering, JBoss quashes the old adage that you get 
 what you pay for.

 to me IMO that sounds like saying that JBoss can do everything all 
 the other app servers can do, which is not the case, and not just 
 talking of the clustering capacities, for example
 Certificate based authentication for the web server doesn't seem to 
 work as far as I could find. Maybe that is not the message that was 
 being attempted to be sent, but I believe that's the message the 
 whole thing sent through. Like I mentioned in the other email, it's a 
 question of expectations. and that kind of award bumps up ALOT 
 people's expectation alot. And when it comes to this kind of 
 products, you don't get many chances to win people's hearts. If you 
 burn them once, you probably won't manage to ever convince them to 
 even bother trying again. If that award had been for 3.0, It would 
 have been quite ok, but 2.4 . erm...


 Luke Taylor wrote:

 Yannick Menager wrote:
 
 ...

 But saying that JBoss can do everything a commercial appserver like 
 wls, is to raise expectations in such a way that it can actually 
 harm JBoss If some people have high requirements in terms of 
 scalability and fault tolerance, and decide to use JBoss after 
 seeing this article, they'll run in big trouble when they find out 
 the differences. 




 I disagree here too. In my experince many clients find out exactly 
 the opposite - that they've been sold a huge capacity, 
 dual-clustered-weblogic-on-sun-E99-boxes-with-replicated-oracle-db 
  setup for a system that could be run on a single decent specced 
 box running open source server software for a *miniscule* fraction 
 of the price, usually because of the vested interests/commission of 
 the software companies they were dealing with.

 Nobody should deploy on anything unless they've done realistic tests 
 of the system with a realisitic simulation of the expected load. 
 They should evaluate JBoss the same as any other server - if it fits 
 their needs then they save a packet.

 Luke.





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RE: [JBoss-dev] Waaaaaaaaooooooooouuuuwwwwwwww

2002-03-27 Thread Vincent Harcq

The MESSAGE is more important than the details.  
Pluggable, micro kernel, add-on products, add-on services, free base
product.
2.4/3.0 does not mind here.
You do not choose a product after reading a best of vote from anybody.
Jboss is recognized now.
Peace.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On 
 Behalf Of Yannick Menager
 Sent: mercredi 27 mars 2002 22:23
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] Wo
 
 
 Erm. quite honestly, those guys at Javaworld must have been drunk 
 when they made those awards. I mean, JBoss is quite good, and 
 I'm using 
 it, but comparing JBoss 2.4.x and Weblogic 6.1 is ridiculous, they're 
 not even in the same league, as 2.4 doesn't even has clustering 
 support... If they were talking about 3.0, at least, I could 
 understand 
 but saying 2.4 is better than wls 6.x and websphere is really 
 streching 
 the limits of imagination.
 
 Vincent Harcq wrote:
 
http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-03-2002/jw-0326-awards-p3.html


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