Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Jaroslaw Staniek]

On 7 March 2016 at 21:43, Alexander Neundorf  wrote:

> On Thursday, March 03, 2016 04:46:20 Jos Poortvliet wrote:
> > replying on phone. blame faulty text completion/correction for any
> rudeness!
> > On Feb 29, 2016 5:40 PM, "Alexander Neundorf"  wrote:
> ...
> > > Can we express the "not be at the mercy of some company" clearer than
> > > "have full control" ?
> >
> > But then you have to spell it all out - it isn't just about companies but
> > governments, heck even individuals or charities...
>
> 
> now that is an interesting point, being independent from governments.
> More and more services of (local or national) governments are offered
> online.
> Just as on example, assume that some documents would be only available as
> pdf.
> You need at least a device, an operating system, a pdf reader.
> Or other stuff, communicating only via some network service (email ?),
> sending
> in documents in some specific format, etc., etc.
>
> So IMO it should be a goal of a government to enable their citizen to use
> those services using software which is free of cost (at least for their
> citizen), and without having to rely on some company. There are two obvious
> ways to achieve that: software development done by the government, and
> development of free software supported/paid for by  the government.
> 
>
> I think "sustainability" describes the concept I have in mind: something
> which
> works at some point in time and you can rely on that it will also work in
> the
> future.
> Don't know how to put that into a vision, maybe something like "a
> sustainable
> ecosystem of software/technology/...
> ​​
> ​​
> which gives everyone full control over
> their digital life" ?
>

I would not depend on theoretical government in our visions. The ones I
​heard about do their best to maximize number of _controlled_ jobs because
they can then "sell" them for power in their internal circles. I've touched
this problem a bit personally too. Just look at healthcare IT backoffice
systems in many countries. One about to be restarted in Poland after 15
years. Or one web form that costed 3B$ in the USA, money went to IBM, the
bigest sponsor of Linux ever.

In this light, consuming FOSS advantages directly is rather evil idea for
these governments as it reduces paid/controlled jobs. And taxes!
​
Regarding full control - I find it a bit pathetic. Todays' extremes cause
that if we just call for "control" and not "full control", we're already
very good.

It'd say we can try to "return people control over their digital life". Not
"everyone" because "everyone" is the new meaningless "nobody".


> Alex
>
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-- 
regards, Jaroslaw Staniek

KDE:
: A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators
: and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org
Calligra Suite:
: A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org
Kexi:
: A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi
Qt Certified Specialist:
: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Saturday, March 05, 2016 11:18:47 Stephen Kelly wrote:
> Jos Poortvliet wrote:
...
> > Just think about neon - make a list of 5 reasons why it shouldn't be a KDE
> > project, easy. But then look at the vision: does it help people (a certain
> > group, in this case, Ubuntu users) achieve and more control over their
> > privacy, their desktop etc? It does, so, while we can and should have more
> > criteria than 'just' a vision, it IS something which binds us.
> 
> This part of your email seems really out of scope to me.
> 
> A vision is not a tool. It is especially not a tool for deciding things
> like whether something fits in KDE. Look to a mission for that. The vision
> should be 'useless' and 'not helpful to decide anything at all'.
> 
> It should not 'define what KDE is' or be helpful for defining that, or
> anything along those lines.
> 
> The only reason to have a vision is to be inspired by it. Trying to use it
> for other things is a mistake IMO.

Is there general consensus on that ?
There wasn't very much response to this.
(I'm not saying I disagree, just asking)

I wouldn't mind keeping this as the preliminary vision and starting to work on 
the mission.

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Thursday, March 03, 2016 04:46:20 Jos Poortvliet wrote:
> replying on phone. blame faulty text completion/correction for any rudeness!
> On Feb 29, 2016 5:40 PM, "Alexander Neundorf"  wrote:
...
> > Can we express the "not be at the mercy of some company" clearer than
> > "have full control" ?
> 
> But then you have to spell it all out - it isn't just about companies but
> governments, heck even individuals or charities... 


now that is an interesting point, being independent from governments.
More and more services of (local or national) governments are offered online.
Just as on example, assume that some documents would be only available as pdf.
You need at least a device, an operating system, a pdf reader.
Or other stuff, communicating only via some network service (email ?), sending 
in documents in some specific format, etc., etc.

So IMO it should be a goal of a government to enable their citizen to use 
those services using software which is free of cost (at least for their 
citizen), and without having to rely on some company. There are two obvious 
ways to achieve that: software development done by the government, and 
development of free software supported/paid for by  the government.


I think "sustainability" describes the concept I have in mind: something which 
works at some point in time and you can rely on that it will also work in the 
future.
Don't know how to put that into a vision, maybe something like "a sustainable 
ecosystem of software/technology/... which gives everyone full control over 
their digital life" ?

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Jos Poortvliet]

replying on phone. blame faulty text completion/correction for any rudeness!
On Feb 29, 2016 5:40 PM, "Alexander Neundorf"  wrote:
>
> On Sunday, February 28, 2016 23:59:12 Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> > On Saturday 27 February 2016 21:29:10 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> ...
> > > The user still depends on the company to continue the product, to not
> > > change the terms and conditions, etc.
> > > The user still is forced to use a device where the software runs, and
> > > has lost if the app is e.g. not ported to the new mobile OS of the
> > > day, to some new processor, etc.
> > > To me, this is not satisfying.
> > >
> > > Or, IOW, the technology should be available similar to how pen and
> > > paper are available today - very cheap, not dependent on a single
> > > company, notes written today will be still readable in 100 years, the
> > > knowledge how to create them is no secret, etc.
> > >
> > > Does that make clearer what I mean.
> >
> > IMO, WhatsApp cannot give its users control over their digital life
> > precisely for the reasons you write above. The user is a WhatsApp's
> > mercy. This is the exact opposite of user control. The user's digital
> > life is under the control of WhatsApp. They can delete the user's
> > digital life whenever they want to.
>
> yes, that's the problem I see.
> I just think that this is not very clearly expressed by "have control", it
> needs some interpretation and may be considered a bit far fetched by some.
> Devils advovate: _in the moment_ a user is using the app, and the provider
> doesn't change its conditions, the user can indeed be in full control.
> I guess many proprietary software vendors will argue this way. I might
even do
> so for the stuff I do at work: we try to make our users as much in
control of
> their data in our application as possible, and the users even have the
chance
> to influence the future development of our application. But still they
depend
> on us that we continue to do what we do.
>
> Can we express the "not be at the mercy of some company" clearer than
"have
> full control" ?

But then you have to spell it all out - it isn't just about companies but
governments, heck even individuals or charities... Full control is more and
can even be redefined. I think the flexibility of being a bit vague means
we all can give meaning to it, make it shared but also our own. That is the
power of a vision, the part that makes it unite - encompassing bit
personal. Of you spell out each part, what 'everyone' means, what 'full'
means, 'digital', 'life'... We have a book, not a sentence.

If YOU get what it means and can explain it to somebody; and it feels like
it means what you want KDE to be; then it is good. Stop thinking about
corner cases, it is neither law nor code :-)

Honestly I think we can keep discussing it to the end of the world but it
won't get much better: we are a diverse community, but giving people
control over their digital lives, with all the different things it means
for different people - it is what binds us and makes for a great vision.

Just think about neon - make a list of 5 reasons why it shouldn't be a KDE
project, easy. But then look at the vision: does it help people (a certain
group, in this case, Ubuntu users) achieve and more control over their
privacy, their desktop etc? It does, so, while we can and should have more
criteria than 'just' a vision, it IS something which binds us.

> Alex
>
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Montag, 22. Februar 2016 23:05:49 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2016 18:36:18 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> > 
> > A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the
> > community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and
> > have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows:
> > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom,
> > privacy and control over their digital life."
> > If there is anything that you disagree with about that vision, please
> > speak up. Otherwise, expressing your agreement is helpful as well!
> > 
> > There seems to be significant agreement on the principles encoded in
> > this vision. Therefore I'd like us to give this a final polish now and
> > if needed go for a third draft (which then should be the last one to
> > not stall this forever). This is a draft for a vision for what kind of
> > world the community aims for, it's not a product vision. As there
> > still seems to be disagreement on the product vision, Thomas will
> > address that in a separate email.
> 
> there's no strong disagreement with your proposal among the supporters of
> the "focused" draft, given that it'll be accompanied by a product
> vision/mission.

I'm happy that we've come to a point where it shows that we all have the same 
goal in mind in the end.

We also all agree that a vision without a mission provides motivation, but 
hardly any guidance, and therefore formulating a mission is absolutely 
necessary.
 
> So, can we try to get that done in one go ?

This is where I see a problem. The whole vision definition process has dragged 
on for quite a while now, which was necessary to get everyone on board, but 
also exhausting.

Defining a mission will take quite a while as well, and if we wait with 
publishing a vision until the mission step is completed, it could be 
frustrating for many who have participated in the vision process and just want 
to see something come out of it already. 

I would therefore suggest to publish the vision once we've agreed on it, but 
in its announcement point out clearly that we now need a mission to lay out 
how we want to work towards that vision, and that this process has already 
started. 
We could even link to a wiki page where the work in progress is documented, 
where you could paste most of what you've already written in your vision draft 
and which is very useful for a mission statement, plus the many points for a 
mission that have come up over the course of the discussions we've head here 
over the past weeks.
That way people could already see where the mission might be headed, and chime 
in if they agree, disagree or have something to add.

The "common product vision" I've mentioned would be another thing that could 
be pursued in parallel to that, but which I see as not directly related to a 
mission for KDE as a community.

Would such a course of action address your concerns?

Cheers,
Thomas
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Valorie Zimmerman]

Just want to address this one point:

On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 1:26 PM, Alexander Neundorf  wrote:
> On Sunday, February 28, 2016 09:54:18 Stephen Kelly wrote:
>> Alexander Neundorf wrote:

> I think I disagree that freedom (I guess as in Free Software) is really a hard
> requirement to achieve personal control. There can be proprietary software
> which gives the user full control.
>
> Alex

I used to be rather wobbly about the four freedoms and the importance
of licensing, but the more I learn about the issues, and see what
fudging around the edges gets for Canonical, for instance. They think
they will make progress by waffling, but instead they seem to be
sinking.

While I want KDE to support freedom, privacy and control very
strongly, I think we have to work at the political level as well.

Just the other day, Richard Moore was in IRC, talking about working in
qtnetwork. He said he split the ssh lib from creator out to a
standalone lib and was meaning to write a few toys using that. Then he
said, "there are major legal issues to shipping it as a lib though.
Crypto is allowed in Creator since it's not re-exported by users of Qt
whereas as stuff in the libs are re-exported to users of the apps that
are developed.

I asked, "why does that make legal issues? Is that crypto illegal in
some places?" He said, "Valorie: it creates issues for redistribution
of Qt eg. from the USA." He added, "it's also why we can't accept
contributions to qtssl from the USA. The lawyers think it is too
risky." I had no idea.

When I asked if I could quote this, Rich said:  "sure, but remember
that some of this is simply the legal opinion of the lawyers of the Qt
company. It doesn't mean that it's 100% true, it just means that it's
considered too risky to Qt to attempt it."

I said, of course -- it's not so much the reality or not, but the
implications which I want to raise; that we need to stand for privacy
very strongly and user-control, all up and down the stack. And I would
add, in government policy as well. It's sad that here in the US that
we have *Tim Cook of Apple* speaking up for strong encryption and user
privacy in the face of demands from our FBI.

This issue is crucial, on many levels.

Valorie

-- 
http://about.me/valoriez
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Sunday, February 28, 2016 09:54:18 Stephen Kelly wrote:
> Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> >> I don't know if you read my mail, but I'd encourage you to do so.
> > 
> > TBH, it's so long I got lost.
> 
> Then I don't know why you are writing in this thread. 

Exactly because of that, so I understand better what you mean.
E.g. points 1, 8, 9, 10 are subjective opinions. If you think so, Ok. I'm 
actually undecided whether I agree with them or not.


On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 22:46:56 Stephen Kelly wrote:
> 5) It has a recognizable, idealistic, completely unachievable goal
> 
> Something along the lines of 
> 
>  * control - over digitally 'social' presence, absence etc
>  * control - over availability of digital services
>  * privacy - choosing what to share, knowingly
>  * freedom - to be forgotten
>  * freedom - to have, share, learn, modify, teach
> 
> Though I'm not sure 'freedom' should be in the vision - I think that's the 
> means/prerequisite to achieve personal control and choice of privacy. 
> Having freedom in the vision makes it overlap with the 4 freedoms. 

I guess my comments refer to that.
I'm not sure about that list of 5 items. Are they all candidates for  in 
your vision "template" ?

I think I disagree that freedom (I guess as in Free Software) is really a hard 
requirement to achieve personal control. There can be proprietary software 
which gives the user full control.

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Cornelius Schumacher]

On Tuesday 23 February 2016 22:46:56 Stephen Kelly wrote:
> 
> This is just my understanding that I've encountered as a result of reading
> what Ingo wrote and comparing with the website list. I know others have
> different understandings, but I wanted to be specific about what insights
> I'm thanking Ingo for! I like the direction.

Thank you for writing this up. It expresses pretty much exactly what I'm 
thinking as well. I like the direction very much.

-- 
Cornelius Schumacher 
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Saturday, February 27, 2016 19:42:44 Stephen Kelly wrote:
> Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> >> "A world in which everyone has control over their digital life" (in ->
> >> over) seems a great vision.
> > 
> > personally I'd like to have included that this can be done
> 
> At least in my view (see my mail), a vision is not 'done' at all. It is only
> for inspiration.


by "this can be done" I didn't mean "we will do the following to realize 
this", but the "do" refers to the action of "having control over their digital 
life".

> 
> > - independent from the commercial interest of companies
> 
> Out of scope of the vision. See also my mail.
> 
> > - available for everybody to use
> 
> The vision Jos and I discuss says 'everyone'. See also my mail.

Yes, right.
 
> > - using solutions which can survive long-term
> 
> Implied by the vision.
>
> Actually I take this back. It's not implied by a vision. The question is out
> of scope.
> 
> A vision is not done, and a 'solution' is out of scope.

Isn't this nitpicking on the language ?

Let me take an example. Let's take whatsapp.

It is not free of cost, but really cheap. So to me this more or less qualifies 
as "available to everyone". Not ideal (free of cost), but close.
Let's assume a Whatsapp user would have fully satisfying control over his 
privacy, his data, etc.
This would qualify as "control over his digital life".
Still, this is for me not enough.

The user still depends on the company to continue the product, to not change 
the terms and conditions, etc.
The user still is forced to use a device where the software runs, and has lost 
if the app is e.g. not ported to the new mobile OS of the day, to some new 
processor, etc.
To me, this is not satisfying.

Or, IOW, the technology should be available similar to how pen and paper are 
available today - very cheap, not dependent on a single company, notes written 
today will be still readable in 100 years, the knowledge how to create them is 
no secret, etc.

Does that make clearer what I mean.

> I don't know if you read my mail, but I'd encourage you to do so.

TBH, it's so long I got lost.

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Stephen Kelly]

Stephen Kelly wrote:

>> - using solutions which can survive long-term
> 
> Implied by the vision.

Actually I take this back. It's not implied by a vision. The question is out 
of scope.

A vision is not done, and a 'solution' is out of scope.

Thanks,

Steve.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Stephen Kelly]

Alexander Neundorf wrote:

>> "A world in which everyone has control over their digital life" (in ->
>> over) seems a great vision.
> 
> personally I'd like to have included that this can be done

At least in my view (see my mail), a vision is not 'done' at all. It is only 
for inspiration.

> - independent from the commercial interest of companies

Out of scope of the vision. See also my mail.

> - available for everybody to use

The vision Jos and I discuss says 'everyone'. See also my mail.

> - using solutions which can survive long-term

Implied by the vision.

The vision is intentionally vague and not-concrete and has no 'method', no 
'done', etc.

I don't know if you read my mail, but I'd encourage you to do so.

Thanks,

Steve.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Stephen Kelly]

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 10:22:22 PM AMT Stephen Kelly wrote:
>> So for me, this is quite good:
>> 
>>  "A world in which everyone has control in their digital life"
>> 
>> I think it is good for all of the same reasons in my previous email. It
>> is also more concise.
> 
> I think she got sidetracked by the search for a slogan - I had the same,
> really liking what she wrote, then reading your mail and realizing it was
> a slogan, not a vision...

Cool, thanks for reading my mail and clearing up the side-track!

> "A world in which everyone has control over their digital life" (in ->
> over) seems a great vision.

Seems great to me too.
 
> To execute, we'd need to 

From my perspective (see my mail), if you're 'executing', then you're not 
talking about a vision anymore. You don't execute a vision. You *just* use 
it for inspiration.

> Of course, next KDE would have to define mission and strategy, in which
> more detailed things like "end user facing software", "cross-platform",
> "Qt" and more could or could not find a place.

Yep.

Thanks,

Steve.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Friday, February 26, 2016 20:01:59 Jos Poortvliet wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 10:22:22 PM AMT Stephen Kelly wrote:
> > Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> > > Oooo, Steve! Thank you for capping off an excellent discussion.
> > > 
> > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Stephen Kelly  
wrote:
> > >> I think the form
> > >> 
> > >>  "A world in which everyone has  their digital life"
> > >> 
> > >> is fantastic!
> > >> 
> > >> It doesn't mention KDE. It doesn't have a 'subject' at all.
> > >> It has a very-inclusive object: 'everyone'
> > >> It is inspirational
> > > 
> > > After reading all of the above, which put into words my inchaote
> > 
> > > thoughts, I would like to offer the following version:
> > It seems your thoughts are not the same as my words at all :). Your
> > suggestion seems to be exactly the opposite of what I wrote in many ways.
> > 
> > Maybe I don't understand what you mean or what you want to communicate
> > with
> > that sentence.
> > 
> > > KDE: control your digital life
> > 
> > You dropped the reference to 'everyone'. You added a reference to KDE. You
> > dropped the 'a world in which' making it less inspirational. Altogether it
> > seems to me more like a marketing slogan.
> > 
> > Can you say why you made those changes?
> > 
> > Something I think you are right about is:
> > > Freedom, technology, software, privacy, all of that is IN there.
> > 
> > So for me, this is quite good:
> >  "A world in which everyone has control in their digital life"
> > 
> > I think it is good for all of the same reasons in my previous email. It is
> > also more concise.
> 
> I think she got sidetracked by the search for a slogan - I had the same,
> really liking what she wrote, then reading your mail and realizing it was a
> slogan, not a vision...
> 
> "A world in which everyone has control over their digital life" (in -> over)
> seems a great vision.

personally I'd like to have included that this can be done
- independent from the commercial interest of companies, i.e. no product lock-
in
- available for everybody to use, i.e. more or less free of cost
- using solutions which can survive long-term, i.e. the sources should be 
available

Is all that implied by the your suggestions ?

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Jos Poortvliet]

On Saturday, February 27, 2016 2:17:11 AM AMT Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Freitag, 26. Februar 2016 18:58:49 CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Jos Poortvliet  wrote:
> > > Note that our slogan is: "A safe home for all your data"
> > > "Access & share your files, calendars, contacts, mail & more from any
> > > device, on your terms"
> > I wish we could come up with similarly specific vision for KDE
> 
> Only that 
> 1. The latter part is _not_ part of ownCloud's vision. It's the byline to 
> their slogan.

Indeed, our vision would be:

"A world in which everybody has a safe place to store and manage their data".

> 2. ownCloud is _one_ product. A very versatile one, yes, but still a single 
> product, not a whole community with dozens of individual products.

Absolutely correct.

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Freitag, 26. Februar 2016 18:58:49 CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Jos Poortvliet  wrote:
> > Note that our slogan is: "A safe home for all your data"
> > "Access & share your files, calendars, contacts, mail & more from any
> > device, on your terms"
> I wish we could come up with similarly specific vision for KDE

Only that 
1. The latter part is _not_ part of ownCloud's vision. It's the byline to 
their slogan.
2. ownCloud is _one_ product. A very versatile one, yes, but still a single 
product, not a whole community with dozens of individual products.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Alexander Dymo]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Jos Poortvliet  wrote:
> Note that our slogan is: "A safe home for all your data"
> "Access & share your files, calendars, contacts, mail & more from any device, 
> on your terms"

I wish we could come up with similarly specific vision for KDE
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Jos Poortvliet]

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 10:22:22 PM AMT Stephen Kelly wrote:
> Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> 
> > Oooo, Steve! Thank you for capping off an excellent discussion.
> > 
> > On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Stephen Kelly  wrote:
> >> I think the form
> >>
> >>  "A world in which everyone has  their digital life"
> >>
> >> is fantastic!
> >>
> >> It doesn't mention KDE. It doesn't have a 'subject' at all.
> >> It has a very-inclusive object: 'everyone'
> >> It is inspirational
> >>
> > After reading all of the above, which put into words my inchaote
> > thoughts, I would like to offer the following version:
> 
> It seems your thoughts are not the same as my words at all :). Your 
> suggestion seems to be exactly the opposite of what I wrote in many ways. 
> 
> Maybe I don't understand what you mean or what you want to communicate with 
> that sentence.
> 
> > KDE: control your digital life
> 
> You dropped the reference to 'everyone'. You added a reference to KDE. You 
> dropped the 'a world in which' making it less inspirational. Altogether it 
> seems to me more like a marketing slogan.
> 
> Can you say why you made those changes?
> 
> Something I think you are right about is:
> 
> > Freedom, technology, software, privacy, all of that is IN there.
> 
> So for me, this is quite good:
> 
>  "A world in which everyone has control in their digital life"
> 
> I think it is good for all of the same reasons in my previous email. It is 
> also more concise.

I think she got sidetracked by the search for a slogan - I had the same, really 
liking what she wrote, then reading your mail and realizing it was a slogan, 
not a vision...

"A world in which everyone has control over their digital life" (in -> over) 
seems a great vision.

To execute, we'd need to create software which is easy to use and stable (we 
target 'everyone', after all), secure and giving you control over your privacy 
(duh) but typical KDE tendencies like making software flexible, powerful and 
configurable fit in this very well, too.

Of course, next KDE would have to define mission and strategy, in which more 
detailed things like "end user facing software", "cross-platform", "Qt" and 
more could or could not find a place.

To give a comparison, ownCloud's vision is something like (and I modified it to 
be in the same form):

"A world in which everybody has a safe place to store and manage their data".

Note that our slogan is: "A safe home for all your data"
with byline:
"Access & share your files, calendars, contacts, mail & more from any device, 
on your terms"

Note that ownCloud's vision is compatible with KDE's, just a bit less broad.

> Thanks,
> 
> Steve.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 04:50:16 PM Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> After reading all of the above, which put into words my inchaote
> thoughts, I would like to offer the following version:
> 
> KDE: control your digital life
> 
> Freedom, technology, software, privacy, all of that is IN there.

I think it bears mentioning, though, since "controlling your digital life" is 
really too vague, a fancy remote control could do that. ;-)
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Stephen Kelly]

Valorie Zimmerman wrote:

> Oooo, Steve! Thank you for capping off an excellent discussion.
> 
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Stephen Kelly  wrote:
>> I think the form
>>
>>  "A world in which everyone has  their digital life"
>>
>> is fantastic!
>>
>> It doesn't mention KDE. It doesn't have a 'subject' at all.
>> It has a very-inclusive object: 'everyone'
>> It is inspirational
>>
> After reading all of the above, which put into words my inchaote
> thoughts, I would like to offer the following version:

It seems your thoughts are not the same as my words at all :). Your 
suggestion seems to be exactly the opposite of what I wrote in many ways. 

Maybe I don't understand what you mean or what you want to communicate with 
that sentence.

> KDE: control your digital life

You dropped the reference to 'everyone'. You added a reference to KDE. You 
dropped the 'a world in which' making it less inspirational. Altogether it 
seems to me more like a marketing slogan.

Can you say why you made those changes?

Something I think you are right about is:

> Freedom, technology, software, privacy, all of that is IN there.

So for me, this is quite good:

 "A world in which everyone has control in their digital life"

I think it is good for all of the same reasons in my previous email. It is 
also more concise.

Thanks,

Steve.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

> KDE: control your digital life

and

> KDE - Be in control of your digital life.

are both fantastic taglines, but not really visions. 
They sound like KDE already allows that _today_, it's not talking about a goal 
for the future to aim for.

We should keep one of those as a tagline for KDE, one we can put on marketing 
material of all kinds, but I think it's a bit too short for a vision for the 
future.

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Clemens Toennies]

On Feb 24, 2016 21:16, "Alexander Neundorf"  wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 22:59:35 Riccardo Iaconelli wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 07:37:07 PM Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> > > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom,
> > > privacy and control over their digital life."
> > >
> > > isn't a conflation of vision and mission. I wondered whether the
actual
> > > vision isn't just the second part, i.e. "a world in which everyone has
> > > freedom, privacy and control over their digital life", and whether
"KDE
> > > creates technology to enable everyone resp. the users of our
technology
> > > to enjoy or experience this freedom, etc." isn't already part of our
> > > mission. Just wondering (and maybe repeating myself :-)).
> >
> > So:
> >
> > "KDE envisions a world in which everyone has freedom, privacy and
control
> > over their digital life."
>
> This one completely avoids stating whether KDE does technology, software,
GUI,
> or whatever, so no conflict there.
> Maybe "envisions" is a bit passive ? E.g. something like "works for" or
> "fights for" ?
>
> still my favourite KDE T-shirt is "KDE - digital freedom".

How about:
KDE - Be in control of your digital life.

Greetings, Clemens.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 22:59:35 Riccardo Iaconelli wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 07:37:07 PM Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom,
> > privacy and control over their digital life."
> > 
> > isn't a conflation of vision and mission. I wondered whether the actual
> > vision isn't just the second part, i.e. "a world in which everyone has
> > freedom, privacy and control over their digital life", and whether "KDE
> > creates technology to enable everyone resp. the users of our technology
> > to enjoy or experience this freedom, etc." isn't already part of our
> > mission. Just wondering (and maybe repeating myself :-)).
> 
> So:
> 
> "KDE envisions a world in which everyone has freedom, privacy and control
> over their digital life."

This one completely avoids stating whether KDE does technology, software, GUI, 
or whatever, so no conflict there.
Maybe "envisions" is a bit passive ? E.g. something like "works for" or 
"fights for" ?

still my favourite KDE T-shirt is "KDE - digital freedom".
But that's now probably really too short. ;-)

Alex
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 16:50:16 Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
...
> After reading all of the above, which put into words my inchaote
> thoughts, I would like to offer the following version:
> 
> KDE: control your digital life

just a nitpick: worded like this, isn't this an order ?
"control your digital life !"


Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Valorie Zimmerman]

Oooo, Steve! Thank you for capping off an excellent discussion.

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Stephen Kelly  wrote:
> Ingo Klöcker wrote:
>
>> I had very similar thoughts when I read the above. I immediately thought
>> "No, I don't want only all users of _our_ technology to enjoys freedom,
>> etc." I want all 7+ billion human beings living on this planet
>> (including the ISS) to enjoy freedom, privacy and control.
>
> Thanks Ingo for your contributions in these threads! You've really helped
> me to realize what this discussion is all about. In particular, in
>
>  http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.kde.devel.community/2422
>
> you made the point that a vision statement can be something which is not
> achievable by that organization alone (or even at all!).
>
> It also doesn't make a reference to the organization itself (that would be
> a self reference).
>
>> "a world in which everyone has freedom, privacy and control over their
>> digital life"
>
> I think the form
>
>  "A world in which everyone has  their digital life"
>
> is fantastic!
>
> The exact expression and placement of commas in the  part needs to be
> considered to make it as universally understandable as possible and easily
> remembered as possible.
>
> Things I like about this:
>
> 1) It is 'non-exclusive'
>
> It doesn't mention KDE. It doesn't have a 'subject' at all.
>
> It's 'the vision from nowhere', so it is easy to attach to without feeling
> like subscribing to some organizations entire agenda.
>
> It doesn't even have an action verb like 'working towards' or such, so it's
> 'something to keep in mind as a guiding principle' that you can just
> meditate on instead of 'doing something about this problem in the world'.
>
> Because there is no 'action', there is no method prescribed to achieve the
> vision. That's good, because the method is the realm of the mission.
>
> 'KDE envisions' is redundant because it 'KDE envisions KDEs vision'.
>
> Notice that almost none of the examples at
>
>  https://topnonprofits.com/examples/vision-statements/
>
> use a self reference.
>
> A vision isn't a place to put a brand.
>
> 2) It is easily shared
>
> A vision seems to be something that could be mistakenly for the vision of
> any number of organizations. Without checking the list, you can read these
> and guess any of about 5 organizations that could have it as their vision:
>
>  * A just world without poverty
>  * To become a world leader at connecting people to wildlife and
> conservation.
>  * A world where everyone has a decent place to live.
>  * Equality for everyone
>  * For every child, life in all its fullness; Our prayer for every heart,
> the will to make it so
>
> 3) It has a very-inclusive object: 'everyone'
>
> Compare with:
>
>  * ... *everyone* has a decent place to live ...
>  * ... connecting *people* to wildlife ...
>  * Equality for *everyone* ...
>  * For *every child* ...
>  * *all animals*
>  * *future generations*
>  * *Every person* has the opportunity ...
>  * *every child* attains the right ...
>  * *all people* – even in the most remote areas of the globe ...
>
> The counter examples are for organizations which are inherently exclusive,
> describing the subset of 'all' people who they address:
>
>  * A hunger-free America
>  * people with intellectual disabilities
>  * eligible youth in America
>  * veterans
>
> KDE is not inherently exclusive, so those don't seem to be good examples
> for
> KDE to follow.
>
> 4) It relates to a universally relateable aspect of being a human in 2016
>
> That is, 'digital life'.
>
> Compare with other aspects of 'being a human' that appear in the list:
>
>  * poverty - even if you don't know it, you can't avoid it, and you know
> what you do to keep yourself out of it.
>  * hunger-free
>  * Equality
>  * a decent place to live
>  * the power of a wish
>  * life in all its fullness
>  * the opportunity to achieve his/her fullest potential
>  * the power to create opportunity for themselves and others
>
> 5) It has a recognizable, idealistic, completely unachievable goal
>
> Something along the lines of
>
>  * control - over digitally 'social' presence, absence etc
>  * control - over availability of digital services
>  * privacy - choosing what to share, knowingly
>  * freedom - to be forgotten
>  * freedom - to have, share, learn, modify, teach
>
> Though I'm not sure 'freedom' should be in the vision - I think that's the
> means/prerequisite to achieve personal control and choice of privacy.
> Having
> freedom in the vision makes it overlap with the 4 freedoms.
>
> But what are the 4 freedoms attempting to achieve? Something like the
> answer
> to that could be the vision.
>
> Compare:
>
>  * A just world without poverty
>  * everyone has a decent place to live
>  * a sustainable world
>  * save a planet
>  * survival, protection, development and participation
>
> 7) It is hard to disagree with the content of it
>
> Who would counter it with a claim that 

Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Stephen Kelly]

Ingo Klöcker wrote:

> I had very similar thoughts when I read the above. I immediately thought
> "No, I don't want only all users of _our_ technology to enjoys freedom,
> etc." I want all 7+ billion human beings living on this planet
> (including the ISS) to enjoy freedom, privacy and control.

Thanks Ingo for your contributions in these threads! You've really helped 
me to realize what this discussion is all about. In particular, in 

 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.kde.devel.community/2422

you made the point that a vision statement can be something which is not 
achievable by that organization alone (or even at all!).

It also doesn't make a reference to the organization itself (that would be 
a self reference).

> "a world in which everyone has freedom, privacy and control over their 
> digital life"

I think the form 

 "A world in which everyone has  their digital life"

is fantastic!

The exact expression and placement of commas in the  part needs to be 
considered to make it as universally understandable as possible and easily 
remembered as possible.

Things I like about this:

1) It is 'non-exclusive'

It doesn't mention KDE. It doesn't have a 'subject' at all. 

It's 'the vision from nowhere', so it is easy to attach to without feeling 
like subscribing to some organizations entire agenda. 

It doesn't even have an action verb like 'working towards' or such, so it's 
'something to keep in mind as a guiding principle' that you can just 
meditate on instead of 'doing something about this problem in the world'. 

Because there is no 'action', there is no method prescribed to achieve the 
vision. That's good, because the method is the realm of the mission.

'KDE envisions' is redundant because it 'KDE envisions KDEs vision'.

Notice that almost none of the examples at 

 https://topnonprofits.com/examples/vision-statements/

use a self reference.

A vision isn't a place to put a brand.

2) It is easily shared

A vision seems to be something that could be mistakenly for the vision of 
any number of organizations. Without checking the list, you can read these 
and guess any of about 5 organizations that could have it as their vision:

 * A just world without poverty
 * To become a world leader at connecting people to wildlife and 
conservation.
 * A world where everyone has a decent place to live.
 * Equality for everyone
 * For every child, life in all its fullness; Our prayer for every heart, 
the will to make it so

3) It has a very-inclusive object: 'everyone'

Compare with:

 * ... *everyone* has a decent place to live ...
 * ... connecting *people* to wildlife ...
 * Equality for *everyone* ...
 * For *every child* ...
 * *all animals*
 * *future generations* 
 * *Every person* has the opportunity ...
 * *every child* attains the right ...
 * *all people* – even in the most remote areas of the globe ...

The counter examples are for organizations which are inherently exclusive, 
describing the subset of 'all' people who they address:

 * A hunger-free America
 * people with intellectual disabilities
 * eligible youth in America
 * veterans

KDE is not inherently exclusive, so those don't seem to be good examples 
for 
KDE to follow.

4) It relates to a universally relateable aspect of being a human in 2016

That is, 'digital life'.

Compare with other aspects of 'being a human' that appear in the list:

 * poverty - even if you don't know it, you can't avoid it, and you know 
what you do to keep yourself out of it.
 * hunger-free
 * Equality
 * a decent place to live
 * the power of a wish
 * life in all its fullness
 * the opportunity to achieve his/her fullest potential
 * the power to create opportunity for themselves and others

5) It has a recognizable, idealistic, completely unachievable goal

Something along the lines of 

 * control - over digitally 'social' presence, absence etc
 * control - over availability of digital services
 * privacy - choosing what to share, knowingly
 * freedom - to be forgotten
 * freedom - to have, share, learn, modify, teach

Though I'm not sure 'freedom' should be in the vision - I think that's the 
means/prerequisite to achieve personal control and choice of privacy. 
Having 
freedom in the vision makes it overlap with the 4 freedoms. 

But what are the 4 freedoms attempting to achieve? Something like the 
answer 
to that could be the vision.

Compare:

 * A just world without poverty
 * everyone has a decent place to live
 * a sustainable world
 * save a planet
 * survival, protection, development and participation

7) It is hard to disagree with the content of it

Who would counter it with a claim that everyone shouldn't have 
control/privacy/freedom by default?

8) It is vague and non-specific

This is good! If it's specific it's divisive!

9) It is completely un-dangerous

It won't help us make difficult decisions. It's not useful in that sense at 
all. 

And that's a good thing! That would be like a CEO micromanaging an some 
workers' tools. The 

Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Monday, February 15, 2016 18:36:18 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the
> community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and
> have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows:
> "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom,
> privacy and control over their digital life."
> If there is anything that you disagree with about that vision, please
> speak up. Otherwise, expressing your agreement is helpful as well!
> 
> There seems to be significant agreement on the principles encoded in
> this vision. Therefore I'd like us to give this a final polish now and
> if needed go for a third draft (which then should be the last one to
> not stall this forever). This is a draft for a vision for what kind of
> world the community aims for, it's not a product vision. As there
> still seems to be disagreement on the product vision, Thomas will
> address that in a separate email.

there's no strong disagreement with your proposal among the supporters of the 
"focused" draft, given that it'll be accompanied by a product vision/mission.

So, can we try to get that done in one go ?


Having said that, here's a slightly different version:
"KDE creates free software to enable everyone to manage his digital life
with freedom, privacy and full control using state-of-the-art user
interfaces".


It differs in three things:

1. "creates ... for a world" -> "creates ... to enable everyone"
This is a bit more active, it makes more clear that we actually want to build 
(a part of) this world.

2. "technology" -> "software"
This still includes all kinds of stuff which is currently happening in KDE. If 
it happens that in the future "hard- and software will be so much intertwined" 
we can still update it, but I doubt this will happen, to me it seems as CPUs 
are getting more and more powerful development is becoming actually more 
generic, less hardware-specific. And for the time being, it is a little bit 
more specific, tangible.

3. + "...with state-of-the-art user interfaces"
That's kind of what we do, and includes also all the possible future 
developments Martin pointed out. Not sure whether it's necessary to mention 
that if we'll additionally have a product vision/mission, but maybe that's 
actually what we want to be proud of, so it may be a good thing to state it ?



The proposal by Riccardo
"KDE envisions a world in which everyone has freedom, privacy and control over 
their digital life."
actually completely avoids stating what we are doing, so there's no need to 
decide whether we do hardware, software, whatever.
I don't know whether that's good or bad.
An even shorter form of this would be "KDE - digital freedom" ;-)


Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 22:59:35 Riccardo Iaconelli wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 07:37:07 PM Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom,
> > privacy and control over their digital life."
> > 
> > isn't a conflation of vision and mission. I wondered whether the actual
> > vision isn't just the second part, i.e. "a world in which everyone has
> > freedom, privacy and control over their digital life", and whether "KDE
> > creates technology to enable everyone resp. the users of our technology
> > to enjoy or experience this freedom, etc." isn't already part of our
> > mission. Just wondering (and maybe repeating myself :-)).
> 
> So:
> 
> "KDE envisions a world in which everyone has freedom, privacy and control
> over their digital life."

do the "freedom" and "privacy" refer to the "digital life", or to freedom and 
privacy in general, "real" life ?
That's not really clear from how it is worded.

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Riccardo Iaconelli]

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 07:37:07 PM Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom,
> privacy and control over their digital life."
> 
> isn't a conflation of vision and mission. I wondered whether the actual 
> vision isn't just the second part, i.e. "a world in which everyone has 
> freedom, privacy and control over their digital life", and whether "KDE 
> creates technology to enable everyone resp. the users of our technology 
> to enjoy or experience this freedom, etc." isn't already part of our 
> mission. Just wondering (and maybe repeating myself :-)).

So:

"KDE envisions a world in which everyone has freedom, privacy and control over 
their digital life."


?

I actually like this better!

-Riccardo

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Mittwoch, 17. Februar 2016 12:06:06 CET you wrote:
> On Wednesday, 17 February 2016 12:46:26 GMT Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> > On Dienstag, 16. Februar 2016 21:20:25 CET Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> > > I think it could be stated more gracefully. How about:
> > > 
> > > KDE aspires to a world where all users of our technology experience
> > > freedom, privacy and control over their digital lives.
> > 
> > But doesn't that mean we don't care how many users we have, as long as
> > those users have freedom, privacy and control? I don't see much ambition
> > in this, to be honest. It sounds like "Hey, let's improve the lives of a
> > tiny niche of people!" to me.
> 
>   This is, however, an important point, i feel. While i'm sure we'd all like
> to see KDE's software all over the world and so on, is world domination
> (said with my tongue stuck firmly in my cheek) actually something that's a
> part of our vision? For myself, i'm simply not sure, but this does seem to
> be a question that'd need to be considered.

Of course it is. 
I'm sorry if my comment came across as "Valorie's suggestion is wrong", I just 
meant that it doesn't reflect _my_ ambitions (or that of the rest of the team 
who produced that draft).

We don't think that KDE _alone_ can create a world where everyone enjoys 
freedom, privacy and control, that would be unrealistic.
"World domination", no matter how deeply burying our tongue in our cheeks, is 
not our goal, either. 

The problem is: If all we aim for is for our users to have freedom, privacy 
and control, then if our software provides all that, even if it were used only 
by a handful of people, we'd still have reached our goal and there would be 
nothing more for us to do (except keeping it that way). Actually, I think 
fulfilling this vision would be pretty easy. It doesn't take much to provide 
freedom, privacy and control, actually. The difficult part is providing it in a 
way that is _attractive to users_ . 
And to provide motivation for the second part, from my perspective the goal 
should be to reach as many users as possible.

So here's the thing: It might sound a bit counter-intuitive at first, but I 
firmly believe that a vision works best if it is, realistically, pretty much 
unreachable. It has to always be possible to measure _progress towards_ the 
goals in the vision so you can tell if you're on the right track, but if you 
make your goal easily reachable, it loses all its motivational value, and you 
can basically pack up and go home, maybe leave a few people to maintain that 
status.

As was already said in the vision discussions: Matthias Ettrich's original 
vision for KDE has been fulfilled now, and therefore has lost its value. Of 
course an alternative approach can be to create reachable visions, and once 
reached, define a new one.
However, given how much time and energy it's costing us to come up with our 
second vision, I don't know if I want to do that every few years.

Cheers,
Thomas
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen]

On Wednesday, 17 February 2016 12:46:26 GMT Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Dienstag, 16. Februar 2016 21:20:25 CET Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> > I think it could be stated more gracefully. How about:
> > 
> > KDE aspires to a world where all users of our technology experience
> > freedom, privacy and control over their digital lives.
> 
> But doesn't that mean we don't care how many users we have, as long as those
> users have freedom, privacy and control? I don't see much ambition in this,
> to be honest. It sounds like "Hey, let's improve the lives of a tiny niche
> of people!" to me.

  This is, however, an important point, i feel. While i'm sure we'd all like 
to see KDE's software all over the world and so on, is world domination (said 
with my tongue stuck firmly in my cheek) actually something that's a part of 
our vision? For myself, i'm simply not sure, but this does seem to be a 
question that'd need to be considered.

-- 
..dan / leinir..
http://leinir.dk/
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Dienstag, 16. Februar 2016 21:20:25 CET Valorie Zimmerman wrote:

> I think it could be stated more gracefully. How about:
> 
> KDE aspires to a world where all users of our technology experience
> freedom, privacy and control over their digital lives.

But doesn't that mean we don't care how many users we have, as long as those 
users have freedom, privacy and control? I don't see much ambition in this, to 
be honest. It sounds like "Hey, let's improve the lives of a tiny niche of 
people!" to me.

> Short version:
> 
> KDE: freedom, privacy, control of your digital life

I do like the short version, but I wouldn't change the long version to what 
you suggested, to be honest.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Valorie Zimmerman]

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Lydia Pintscher  wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the
> community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and
> have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows:
> "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom,
> privacy and control over their digital life."
> If there is anything that you disagree with about that vision, please
> speak up. Otherwise, expressing your agreement is helpful as well!

I think it could be stated more gracefully. How about:

KDE aspires to a world where all users of our technology experience
freedom, privacy and control over their digital lives.

Short version:

KDE: freedom, privacy, control of your digital life

> There seems to be significant agreement on the principles encoded in
> this vision. Therefore I'd like us to give this a final polish now and
> if needed go for a third draft (which then should be the last one to
> not stall this forever). This is a draft for a vision for what kind of
> world the community aims for, it's not a product vision. As there
> still seems to be disagreement on the product vision, Thomas will
> address that in a separate email.
>
> Cheers
> Lydia, Sebas, Thomas, Riccardo and Valorie
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Mittwoch, 17. Februar 2016 00:01:39 CET Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> > What I want to say, in my opinion a guiding statement like a vision
> > should emphasize the main strengths, the main direction, and doesn't
> > need to be worded as broad so that it really covers every nuance.
> 
> The vision is not a guiding statement, the mission is. It's the mission
> which details/specifies how we intend to fulfill the vision. IOW, the
> mission statement gives the direction you are seeking for. The mission
> statement would probably state that we will write software with focus on
> UI applications to reach this goal.

Yes, Ingo's interpretation of vision and mission fully matches mine. I'd still 
call a vision a "guiding statement", in the way that the goal itself does 
already provide "guidance". It's not a step-by-step guidance, however, that's 
what the mission is for.

> > On Monday, February 15, 2016 22:27:14 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > If, say, 10 years down the road, hard- and software is so much
> > > intertwined that we cannot influence the future with software alone
> > > anymore, we don't want people to say "But our vision says we only
> > > do software!".
> > 
> > Since we are talking about technology, especially a fast evolving
> > technology, I'm sure a vision for a technology project could also be
> > updated. :-)
> 
> Yes, but if we can avoid it (by using a broader vision in the first
> place), then we should avoid it. OTOH, the mission is supposed to be
> updated, e.g. if the world around us changes in a way which makes it
> unwise not to start creating hardware to fulfill our vision.

Yes, that's our intention, at least.
The vision is a long-term goal, so why not make our lives easier by defining it 
in a way that reduces the need for updating it?
The mission will change more often, anyway, because the strategy likely has to 
be adapted to changed circumstances or because we might have found that our 
current path isn't bringing us closer to our goal.

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Ingo Klöcker]

On Tuesday 16 February 2016 23:26:58 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2016 22:27:14 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> > On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 21:49:58 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > > On Monday, February 15, 2016 18:36:18 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> > > > Hi everyone,
> > > > 
> > > > A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the
> > > > community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful
> > > > feedback and
> > > > have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows:
> > > > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has
> > > > freedom,
> > > > privacy and control over their digital life."
> > > 
> > > just to make sure: this intentionally uses "technology" and not
> > > "software" ?
> > 
> > Yes, this is intentional. Since the vision is supposed to merely
> > outline the future we want to live in, not how to get there, we did
> > not want to restrict ourselves to software.
> 
> On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 19:53:47 Riccardo Iaconelli wrote:
> ...
> 
> > We explicitly re-labeled it "technology" to include icons,
> > wallpapers and other kind of content which might not be software.
> 
> Is this maybe the reason why we are having those weird discussions,
> and we actually have the same in mind ?
> 
> See, here is what the word "technology", used in this context, tells
> me: a community, which is well known as a *software* community, now
> doesn't use the term "software" anymore. Instead it now uses
> "technology".
> There must be a reason why they decided not to use "software" anymore.
> To me this means, this community decided not to emphasize that it
> does software anymore. So it probably also does hardware now,
> probably having stuff like Arduino, maybe RPi-based hardware and the
> maker-community in mind, maybe more. I would also expect then a plan
> for hardware in the mission then.
>
> What I want to say, in my opinion a guiding statement like a vision
> should emphasize the main strengths, the main direction, and doesn't
> need to be worded as broad so that it really covers every nuance.

The vision is not a guiding statement, the mission is. It's the mission 
which details/specifies how we intend to fulfill the vision. IOW, the 
mission statement gives the direction you are seeking for. The mission 
statement would probably state that we will write software with focus on 
UI applications to reach this goal.


> On Monday, February 15, 2016 22:27:14 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> > If, say, 10 years down the road, hard- and software is so much
> > intertwined that we cannot influence the future with software alone
> > anymore, we don't want people to say "But our vision says we only
> > do software!".
>
> Since we are talking about technology, especially a fast evolving
> technology, I'm sure a vision for a technology project could also be
> updated. :-)

Yes, but if we can avoid it (by using a broader vision in the first 
place), then we should avoid it. OTOH, the mission is supposed to be 
updated, e.g. if the world around us changes in a way which makes it 
unwise not to start creating hardware to fulfill our vision.


Regards,
Ingo


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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Ingo Klöcker]

On Monday 15 February 2016 19:29:32 Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> On Monday 15 February 2016 18:36:18 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> > 
> > A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the
> > community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback
> > and
> > have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows:
> > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom,
> > privacy and control over their digital life."
> 
> I like it. My only nitpick is with "freedom, privacy and control over
> their digital life", because when reading it, I automatically parsed
> it as "freedom over their digital life, privacy over their digital
> life and control over their digital life" which doesn't make sense.
> 
[snip]
>
> What about "[...] everyone has freedom and privacy and control over
> their digital life". It's a bit convoluted, but I think it better
> avoids the misreading.

One more idea: What about replacing "has" with "enjoys", i.e.
"KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone enjoys freedom and 
privacy and control over their digital life."

This could even be read two ways (at least by a non-native-English-
speaking German like me): Everyone enjoys freedom, etc. in itself. And, 
everyone enjoys using our technology while enjoying freedom, etc.


Regards,
Ingo


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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Monday, February 15, 2016 22:27:14 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 21:49:58 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > On Monday, February 15, 2016 18:36:18 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> > > Hi everyone,
> > > 
> > > A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the
> > > community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and
> > > have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows:
> > > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom,
> > > privacy and control over their digital life."
> > 
> > just to make sure: this intentionally uses "technology" and not "software"
> > ?
> Yes, this is intentional. Since the vision is supposed to merely outline the
> future we want to live in, not how to get there, we did not want to
> restrict ourselves to software.


On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 19:53:47 Riccardo Iaconelli wrote:
...
> We explicitly re-labeled it "technology" to include icons, wallpapers and
> other kind of content which might not be software.


Is this maybe the reason why we are having those weird discussions, and we 
actually have the same in mind ?

See, here is what the word "technology", used in this context, tells me: a 
community, which is well known as a *software* community, now doesn't use the 
term "software" anymore. Instead it now uses "technology".
There must be a reason why they decided not to use "software" anymore.
To me this means, this community decided not to emphasize that it does 
software anymore. So it probably also does hardware now, probably having stuff 
like Arduino, maybe RPi-based hardware and the maker-community in mind, maybe 
more. I would also expect then a plan for hardware in the mission then.

What I want to say, in my opinion a guiding statement like a vision should 
emphasize the main strengths, the main direction, and doesn't need to be 
worded as broad so that it really covers every nuance.
I mean, icons and wallpapers, which Riccardo mentioned, to me of course belong 
to software, without mentioning them explicitly, and also without the need to 
say "software and all related items".
The same way as "graphical user interfaces and applications" used in the 
vision "just" shows the main direction, and doesn't need to mention that this 
of course includes all supporting and related stuff.

On Monday, February 15, 2016 22:27:14 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> If, say, 10 years down the road, hard- and software is so much intertwined
> that we cannot influence the future with software alone anymore, we don't
> want people to say "But our vision says we only do software!".

Since we are talking about technology, especially a fast evolving technology, 
I'm sure a vision for a technology project could also be updated. :-)

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Mario Fux]

On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 19:29:32 CET Ingo Klöcker wrote:

Morning Ingo, Lydia and Co

> On Monday 15 February 2016 18:36:18 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> > 
> > A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the
> > community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and
> > have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows:
> > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom,
> > privacy and control over their digital life."
> 
> I like it. My only nitpick is with "freedom, privacy and control over
> their digital life", because when reading it, I automatically parsed it
> as "freedom over their digital life, privacy over their digital life and
> control over their digital life" which doesn't make sense.
> 
> What about "[...] everyone has control over their digital life, freedom,
> and privacy". Hmm, no. This can be misread as "control over their
> digital life, control over their freedom, and control over their
> privacy".
> 
> What about "[...] everyone has freedom and privacy and control over
> their digital life". It's a bit convoluted, but I think it better avoids
> the misreading.

+1 to this. Maybe this could still be improved/tuned a bit.

But in general I like the community vision and in particular the term 
"technology" rather than "just" software.

> Regards,
> Ingo

Thanks for this work everybody (all the groups!)
Mario


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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 21:37:49 CET Laszlo Papp wrote:
> In which case, what if digital life is not the future?

If the world goes completely back to pen and paper, I fear KDE becomes 
obsolete, because I don't think we could adapt to that world.

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Laszlo Papp]

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Thomas Pfeiffer 
wrote:

> On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 21:49:58 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > On Monday, February 15, 2016 18:36:18 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the
> > > community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and
> > > have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows:
> > > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom,
> > > privacy and control over their digital life."
> >
> > just to make sure: this intentionally uses "technology" and not
> "software" ?
>
> Yes, this is intentional. Since the vision is supposed to merely outline
> the
> future we want to live in, not how to get there, we did not want to
> restrict
> ourselves to software.
>
> If, say, 10 years down the road, hard- and software is so much intertwined
> that we cannot influence the future with software alone anymore, we don't
> want
> people to say "But our vision says we only do software!".
>

In which case, what if digital life is not the future?

(SCNR)
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 21:49:58 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2016 18:36:18 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> > 
> > A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the
> > community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and
> > have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows:
> > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom,
> > privacy and control over their digital life."
> 
> just to make sure: this intentionally uses "technology" and not "software" ?

Yes, this is intentional. Since the vision is supposed to merely outline the 
future we want to live in, not how to get there, we did not want to restrict 
ourselves to software.

If, say, 10 years down the road, hard- and software is so much intertwined 
that we cannot influence the future with software alone anymore, we don't want 
people to say "But our vision says we only do software!".
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Ingo Klöcker]

On Monday 15 February 2016 18:36:18 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the
> community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and
> have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows:
> "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom,
> privacy and control over their digital life."

I like it. My only nitpick is with "freedom, privacy and control over 
their digital life", because when reading it, I automatically parsed it 
as "freedom over their digital life, privacy over their digital life and 
control over their digital life" which doesn't make sense.

What about "[...] everyone has control over their digital life, freedom, 
and privacy". Hmm, no. This can be misread as "control over their 
digital life, control over their freedom, and control over their 
privacy".

What about "[...] everyone has freedom and privacy and control over 
their digital life". It's a bit convoluted, but I think it better avoids 
the misreading.


Regards,
Ingo


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