KR> Pilots and Builders

[Dan Heath]

Yea, mine would fly in smooth air for quite a while hands off, but it would
fly hands off for a really long time after I turned on the auto pilot.  And,
if you want to reduce weight, leave that tail wheel where it belongs.  YUK
YUK.



See y'all in MMV.



See N64KR at   http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on
the pics 



2015 KR Gathering - McMinnville, OR.  September 3 - 6 -- See U There.



Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 



Best Interior and Panel at 2008 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN





Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC

KR> Pilots and Builders

[n357cj]

Good question Sid. And while Mark's notes are spot on and well thought out I 
think the ideas that are missing are the things you shouldn't do if you are set 
on building light and in range. One of the most glaring to me is the obsesion 
that a number of folks have with increasing the horizontal stab. along with 
that the additional mass balancing of the elevator. I flew 2 days ago for over 
an hour and the plane trimed and flew hands off for plenty long to fold maps, 
take pictures (that is what I was doing) or what ever other task is at hand. it 
really does not need to be larger than stock in my opinion for normal flying. 
keep it light back there and another thing back there is that silly tail 
wheel... move it up front where it belongs.
Joe Horton
- Original Message -
From: "Mark Langford via KRnet" 
To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 6:51:05 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Pilots and Builders

Sid Wood wrote:

 >> Ok, excellent suggestion on building the airplane to the forward end 
of the cg limit.  Just exactly how does one do that?  And still follow 
the plans? <<

There's an adequate page in my 1990 KR2 plans (page 114) that shows how 
to do the weight and balance, and an example on page 115.  That defines 
where the correct range is, although it's an accepted fact in the KR 
community that the last 2" of the 8" range should be avoided (to put it 
diplomatically). What the plans does NOT address is how to get there, 
but clearly it means shifting the heavy stuff around in whatever fashion 
is required to put the plane in the safe range, whether pilot and fuel 
only or fully loaded with  passenger and baggage (or whatever 
configurations are at the extremes of forward and aft CG).

Moving the engine forward is the most obvious way to get the CG forward, 
and spacers under the mount, 

KR> Pilots and Builders

[Mark Langford]

Sid Wood wrote:

 >> Ok, excellent suggestion on building the airplane to the forward end 
of the cg limit.  Just exactly how does one do that?  And still follow 
the plans? <<

There's an adequate page in my 1990 KR2 plans (page 114) that shows how 
to do the weight and balance, and an example on page 115.  That defines 
where the correct range is, although it's an accepted fact in the KR 
community that the last 2" of the 8" range should be avoided (to put it 
diplomatically). What the plans does NOT address is how to get there, 
but clearly it means shifting the heavy stuff around in whatever fashion 
is required to put the plane in the safe range, whether pilot and fuel 
only or fully loaded with  passenger and baggage (or whatever 
configurations are at the extremes of forward and aft CG).

Moving the engine forward is the most obvious way to get the CG forward, 
and spacers under the mount, or making a new mount to accomplish the 
task, is the "easy" way to make large changes.  To get the CG more aft 
(as I needed in my case), moving the battery from the firewall to 
somewhere like adjacent to the main spar is helpful, and it can even be 
put further aft of the aft spar a few bays (which is where I put my 
backup battery).  In general, I see the engine as the rough balance, and 
when everything else is done, the weight and balance shows where the 
battery, ELT, backup battery, and other stuff needs to go.  N891JF has 
2" spacers between the engine mount and firewall, which was the "common 
knowledge" solution for the aft CG problem for the KR2.

Really, the smart way to do it is build all of the airplane except the 
firewall forward, do a weight and balance, weigh the engine and mount, 
calculate where the CG of the engine needs to go, then redo the W to 
show where the mount/engine should go...shimming if necessary.  We have 
control over this, and we know to avoid the aft end of the CG range, so 
arranging for a  forward CG is the prudent way to go.  That's what I did 
on N56ML as well.  All of this stuff is detailed in the KR Newsletters, 
available at http://www.krnet.org/newsletter/.

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> Pilots and Builders

[danrh at windstream.net]

Keep it within the design gross weight and / or fiddle with the engine 
placement.  Hard to do the first, much easier to do the second.  That is what I 
did, per recommendation from Jim Faughn, when I had the VW on the Black Bird.


On Thursday, March 26, 2015 1:23 PM, Sid Wood via KRnet  wrote: 

=
Ok, excellent suggestion on building the airplane to the forward end of the 
cg limit.  Just exactly how does one do that?  And still follow the plans? 

Sid Wood 
Tri-gear KR-2 N6242 
Mechanicsville, MD, USA 
--- 
I put another couple of hours on N891JF (a fairly stock KR2) late this 
afternoon, and I was thinking that there is nothing special about flying 
this plane.  Yes, it will run circles around a 172, and it takes more 
runway, but it's just not difficult at all. It's justdifferent! 
What gets people is when they try to fly it with a CG toward the aft end 
or aft of the safe range, and then it's not just a handful, it's trying 
to kill you. 

The solution is pretty dang simple...build it with the CG near the FRONT 
of the range, because as passengers and baggage are added, the CG is 
going to move aft.  Jim Faughn built N891JF to be right on the front end 
of the CG range with him and full fuel, and I'm even lighter.  There's 
no hint of instability, obviously, and it's really not twitchy in smooth 
air (which is where I climb to for any cross-country).  It will gain or 
lose a couple of hundred feet in a minute if you're not paying 
attention, so you need to pay attention! 

One common characteristic with KRs is a lack of longitudinal (roll) 
stability.  They will typically drift off left or right and just keep on 
increasing the bank into a dive...so don't fall asleep at the stick. 
Other than these details, they are very similar to "normal" airplanes, 
but the V numbers are different, of course. 

And has been said many times, stick movement is pretty much limited to 
just "thinking" about it, while at cruise speed...slight pressure 
exerted on the stick, with no discernible movement.  About the only time 
real stick movement happens is on takeoff or landing, unless you like to 
do the occasional roll. 

Stalls are very gentle, and give PLENTY of warning.  N891JF rattles the 
elevator hinges long before you get to the stall, and it doesn't break, 
it just mushes down a little.  You'd have to be oblivious for it to 
sneak up on you and lose more than 20' of altitude.  I did several 
today, most a little less than 50 mph TAS with the belly board down. 
Turns do not significantly alter the stall characteristics, just 
increase the speed a bit. And it slips beautifully...just stomp the 
rudder pedal and correct flight path with ailerons, and it's a real hoot 
of an elevator ride. 

But a KR can lull you to sleep in calm air and practically flies itself 
with minimal input.  But even in calm air you can't spend a lot of time 
to fold a map with no hands on the stick, because moving arms and legs 
changes the weight distribution, and the plane will react accordingly. 
But that shouldn't be a surprise.  With a dual stick setup, I fly with 
my knees when doing such things as taking sunset photos.  With one stick 
that's a lot more difficult, bordering on yoga. 

As Troy Petteway once told me, "taildragger KR's are the easiest of the 
taildraggers to land", and I see no reason to argue with that.  It's not 
like flying an F-16, but it is a different mindset than a C-150.  My EAA 
flight advisor had me fly a Cub (for the first time) the morning of my 
first KR flight, but my time would have been better spent flying the KR 
earlier in the day in the calm air of the early morning. 

I guess my best advice would be to get a little (even ten minutes would 
help) stick time in a KR before flying yours for the first time, and 
keep in mind to make very subtle stick movements.  And go to altitude to 
ascertain stall speed, then approach a long runway at maybe ten percent 
higher than that and just wait for the speed to bleed off and let the 
plane gently settle onto the ground. 

If this plane were so difficult to fly, I wouldn't climb into it at 
every opportunity and just fly around the neighborhood for two hours 
like I did today.  Eight takeoffs and landings, some stall and cruise 
speed testing, a great sunset unfolding, and more dinosaurs liberated. 
See attached image... 

Mark Langford 
ML at N56ML.com 
http://www.n56ml.com 




___ 
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options 

KR> Pilots and Builders

[Sid Wood]

Ok, excellent suggestion on building the airplane to the forward end of the 
cg limit.  Just exactly how does one do that?  And still follow the plans?

Sid Wood
Tri-gear KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA
---
I put another couple of hours on N891JF (a fairly stock KR2) late this
afternoon, and I was thinking that there is nothing special about flying
this plane.  Yes, it will run circles around a 172, and it takes more
runway, but it's just not difficult at all. It's justdifferent!
What gets people is when they try to fly it with a CG toward the aft end
or aft of the safe range, and then it's not just a handful, it's trying
to kill you.

The solution is pretty dang simple...build it with the CG near the FRONT
of the range, because as passengers and baggage are added, the CG is
going to move aft.  Jim Faughn built N891JF to be right on the front end
of the CG range with him and full fuel, and I'm even lighter.  There's
no hint of instability, obviously, and it's really not twitchy in smooth
air (which is where I climb to for any cross-country).  It will gain or
lose a couple of hundred feet in a minute if you're not paying
attention, so you need to pay attention!

One common characteristic with KRs is a lack of longitudinal (roll)
stability.  They will typically drift off left or right and just keep on
increasing the bank into a dive...so don't fall asleep at the stick.
Other than these details, they are very similar to "normal" airplanes,
but the V numbers are different, of course.

And has been said many times, stick movement is pretty much limited to
just "thinking" about it, while at cruise speed...slight pressure
exerted on the stick, with no discernible movement.  About the only time
real stick movement happens is on takeoff or landing, unless you like to
do the occasional roll.

Stalls are very gentle, and give PLENTY of warning.  N891JF rattles the
elevator hinges long before you get to the stall, and it doesn't break,
it just mushes down a little.  You'd have to be oblivious for it to
sneak up on you and lose more than 20' of altitude.  I did several
today, most a little less than 50 mph TAS with the belly board down.
Turns do not significantly alter the stall characteristics, just
increase the speed a bit. And it slips beautifully...just stomp the
rudder pedal and correct flight path with ailerons, and it's a real hoot
of an elevator ride.

But a KR can lull you to sleep in calm air and practically flies itself
with minimal input.  But even in calm air you can't spend a lot of time
to fold a map with no hands on the stick, because moving arms and legs
changes the weight distribution, and the plane will react accordingly.
But that shouldn't be a surprise.  With a dual stick setup, I fly with
my knees when doing such things as taking sunset photos.  With one stick
that's a lot more difficult, bordering on yoga.

As Troy Petteway once told me, "taildragger KR's are the easiest of the
taildraggers to land", and I see no reason to argue with that.  It's not
like flying an F-16, but it is a different mindset than a C-150.  My EAA
flight advisor had me fly a Cub (for the first time) the morning of my
first KR flight, but my time would have been better spent flying the KR
earlier in the day in the calm air of the early morning.

I guess my best advice would be to get a little (even ten minutes would
help) stick time in a KR before flying yours for the first time, and
keep in mind to make very subtle stick movements.  And go to altitude to
ascertain stall speed, then approach a long runway at maybe ten percent
higher than that and just wait for the speed to bleed off and let the
plane gently settle onto the ground.

If this plane were so difficult to fly, I wouldn't climb into it at
every opportunity and just fly around the neighborhood for two hours
like I did today.  Eight takeoffs and landings, some stall and cruise
speed testing, a great sunset unfolding, and more dinosaurs liberated.
See attached image...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> Pilots and Builders

[bjoenunley]

What could or would you sky write? ?

KR2??


'Looking at your map. ?I think would be pretty neat if you could spell so thing 
out up in the air and have it show up on the map."



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

KR> Pilots and Builders

[Paul Visk]

Looking at your map. ?I think would be pretty neat if you could spell so thing 
out up in the air and have it show up on the map.

Paul Visk
Belleville I'll
618 406 4705


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S?4

 Original message 
From: Mark Langford via KRnet  
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date:03/25/2015  9:58 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: krnet at list.krnet.org 
Subject: Re: KR> Pilots and Builders 

Adam Tippin wrote:

>>?? I'm building a KR2S widened. 43 @ longeron shouldres.
I'm a builder, not a pilot as of yet. I told a friend I wanted to build 
a plane. Tim Stringer suggested the KR. So I researched all the quality 
and quirks. I fell in love. I know I will get my license. But Do you 
think I'm putting the kart in front of the horse?
I would enjoy your HO's<<

I put another couple of hours on N891JF (a fairly stock KR2) late this 
afternoon, and I was thinking that there is nothing special about flying 
this plane.? Yes, it will run circles around a 172, and it takes more 
runway, but it's just not difficult at all. It's justdifferent! 
What gets people is when they try to fly it with a CG toward the aft end 
or aft of the safe range, and then it's not just a handful, it's trying 
to kill you.

The solution is pretty dang simple...build it with the CG near the FRONT 
of the range, because as passengers and baggage are added, the CG is 
going to move aft.? Jim Faughn built N891JF to be right on the front end 
of the CG range with him and full fuel, and I'm even lighter.? There's 
no hint of instability, obviously, and it's really not twitchy in smooth 
air (which is where I climb to for any cross-country).? It will gain or 
lose a couple of hundred feet in a minute if you're not paying 
attention, so you need to pay attention!

One common characteristic with KRs is a lack of longitudinal (roll) 
stability.? They will typically drift off left or right and just keep on 
increasing the bank into a dive...so don't fall asleep at the stick. 
Other than these details, they are very similar to "normal" airplanes, 
but the V numbers are different, of course.

And has been said many times, stick movement is pretty much limited to 
just "thinking" about it, while at cruise speed...slight pressure 
exerted on the stick, with no discernible movement.? About the only time 
real stick movement happens is on takeoff or landing, unless you like to 
do the occasional roll.

Stalls are very gentle, and give PLENTY of warning.? N891JF rattles the 
elevator hinges long before you get to the stall, and it doesn't break, 
it just mushes down a little.? You'd have to be oblivious for it to 
sneak up on you and lose more than 20' of altitude.? I did several 
today, most a little less than 50 mph TAS with the belly board down. 
Turns do not significantly alter the stall characteristics, just 
increase the speed a bit. And it slips beautifully...just stomp the 
rudder pedal and correct flight path with ailerons, and it's a real hoot 
of an elevator ride.

But a KR can lull you to sleep in calm air and practically flies itself 
with minimal input.? But even in calm air you can't spend a lot of time 
to fold a map with no hands on the stick, because moving arms and legs 
changes the weight distribution, and the plane will react accordingly. 
But that shouldn't be a surprise.? With a dual stick setup, I fly with 
my knees when doing such things as taking sunset photos.? With one stick 
that's a lot more difficult, bordering on yoga.

As Troy Petteway once told me, "taildragger KR's are the easiest of the 
taildraggers to land", and I see no reason to argue with that.? It's not 
like flying an F-16, but it is a different mindset than a C-150.? My EAA 
flight advisor had me fly a Cub (for the first time) the morning of my 
first KR flight, but my time would have been better spent flying the KR 
earlier in the day in the calm air of the early morning.

I guess my best advice would be to get a little (even ten minutes would 
help) stick time in a KR before flying yours for the first time, and 
keep in mind to make very subtle stick movements.? And go to altitude to 
ascertain stall speed, then approach a long runway at maybe ten percent 
higher than that and just wait for the speed to bleed off and let the 
plane gently settle onto the ground.

If this plane were so difficult to fly, I wouldn't climb into it at 
every opportunity and just fly around the neighborhood for two hours 
like I did today.? Eight takeoffs and landings, some stall and cruise 
speed testing, a great sunset unfolding, and more dinosaurs liberated. 
See attached image...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com


___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
see http://list.krnet.org/ma

KR> Pilots and Builders

[Mark Langford]

Adam Tippin wrote:

 >>   I'm building a KR2S widened. 43 @ longeron shouldres.
I'm a builder, not a pilot as of yet. I told a friend I wanted to build 
a plane. Tim Stringer suggested the KR. So I researched all the quality 
and quirks. I fell in love. I know I will get my license. But Do you 
think I'm putting the kart in front of the horse?
I would enjoy your HO's<<

I put another couple of hours on N891JF (a fairly stock KR2) late this 
afternoon, and I was thinking that there is nothing special about flying 
this plane.  Yes, it will run circles around a 172, and it takes more 
runway, but it's just not difficult at all. It's justdifferent! 
What gets people is when they try to fly it with a CG toward the aft end 
or aft of the safe range, and then it's not just a handful, it's trying 
to kill you.

The solution is pretty dang simple...build it with the CG near the FRONT 
of the range, because as passengers and baggage are added, the CG is 
going to move aft.  Jim Faughn built N891JF to be right on the front end 
of the CG range with him and full fuel, and I'm even lighter.  There's 
no hint of instability, obviously, and it's really not twitchy in smooth 
air (which is where I climb to for any cross-country).  It will gain or 
lose a couple of hundred feet in a minute if you're not paying 
attention, so you need to pay attention!

One common characteristic with KRs is a lack of longitudinal (roll) 
stability.  They will typically drift off left or right and just keep on 
increasing the bank into a dive...so don't fall asleep at the stick. 
Other than these details, they are very similar to "normal" airplanes, 
but the V numbers are different, of course.

And has been said many times, stick movement is pretty much limited to 
just "thinking" about it, while at cruise speed...slight pressure 
exerted on the stick, with no discernible movement.  About the only time 
real stick movement happens is on takeoff or landing, unless you like to 
do the occasional roll.

Stalls are very gentle, and give PLENTY of warning.  N891JF rattles the 
elevator hinges long before you get to the stall, and it doesn't break, 
it just mushes down a little.  You'd have to be oblivious for it to 
sneak up on you and lose more than 20' of altitude.  I did several 
today, most a little less than 50 mph TAS with the belly board down. 
Turns do not significantly alter the stall characteristics, just 
increase the speed a bit. And it slips beautifully...just stomp the 
rudder pedal and correct flight path with ailerons, and it's a real hoot 
of an elevator ride.

But a KR can lull you to sleep in calm air and practically flies itself 
with minimal input.  But even in calm air you can't spend a lot of time 
to fold a map with no hands on the stick, because moving arms and legs 
changes the weight distribution, and the plane will react accordingly. 
But that shouldn't be a surprise.  With a dual stick setup, I fly with 
my knees when doing such things as taking sunset photos.  With one stick 
that's a lot more difficult, bordering on yoga.

As Troy Petteway once told me, "taildragger KR's are the easiest of the 
taildraggers to land", and I see no reason to argue with that.  It's not 
like flying an F-16, but it is a different mindset than a C-150.  My EAA 
flight advisor had me fly a Cub (for the first time) the morning of my 
first KR flight, but my time would have been better spent flying the KR 
earlier in the day in the calm air of the early morning.

I guess my best advice would be to get a little (even ten minutes would 
help) stick time in a KR before flying yours for the first time, and 
keep in mind to make very subtle stick movements.  And go to altitude to 
ascertain stall speed, then approach a long runway at maybe ten percent 
higher than that and just wait for the speed to bleed off and let the 
plane gently settle onto the ground.

If this plane were so difficult to fly, I wouldn't climb into it at 
every opportunity and just fly around the neighborhood for two hours 
like I did today.  Eight takeoffs and landings, some stall and cruise 
speed testing, a great sunset unfolding, and more dinosaurs liberated. 
See attached image...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

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KR> Pilots and Builders

[Dan Heath]

Start as soon as you can.  Try to take your lessons in a tail wheel plane
and put a tail wheel on your KR.



The extra with is really the only real change that the KR needs to be a
comfortable aircraft, unless you always want to be the only one flying on
long trips.



See N64KR at   http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on
the pics 



2015 KR Gathering - McMinnville, OR.  September 3 - 6 -- See U There.



Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 



Best Interior and Panel at 2008 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN





Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC

KR> Pilots and Builders

[Sid Wood]

Adam,
Excellent choice on widening your KR-2S to 43 inches.  Wished I had the good 
sense to do something like that on my KR-2 back then.  34-inches is a bit 
tight for a two-place side by side.

Sid Wood
Tri-gear KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA
--

I'm building a KR2S widened. 43 @ longeron shouldres.
I'm a builder, not a pilot as of yet. I told a friend I wanted to build a 
plane. Tim Stringer suggested the KR. So I researched all the quality and 
quirks. I fell in love. I know I will get my license. But Do you think I'm 
putting the kart in front of the horse?
I would enjoy your HO's

Adam Tippin
A KR2S builder

--

KR> Pilots and Builders

[D. DUROSSETTE]

If you split your time evenly, you will finish your flight training long
before you will be able to finish your KR. Your time and financial resources
are engines pulling your train. As an A, you have the basic understanding
of need for safety and integrity. Although there are some great and creative
ideas online, but take your time in considering mods you read about online,
not all ideas pay out and you will be the one in the cockpit. If in doubt,
follow the plans.  Good luck and most of all, have fun with both goals.

Darry DuRossette

-Original Message-
From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-bounces at list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of Sid Wood via
KRnet
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 10:37 AM
To: krnet at list.krnet.org
Subject: Re: KR> Pilots and Builders

Adam,
Excellent choice on widening your KR-2S to 43 inches.  Wished I had the good
sense to do something like that on my KR-2 back then.  34-inches is a bit
tight for a two-place side by side.

Sid Wood
Tri-gear KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA
--

I'm building a KR2S widened. 43 @ longeron shouldres.
I'm a builder, not a pilot as of yet. I told a friend I wanted to build a
plane. Tim Stringer suggested the KR. So I researched all the quality and
quirks. I fell in love. I know I will get my license. But Do you think I'm
putting the kart in front of the horse?
I would enjoy your HO's

Adam Tippin
A KR2S builder

--




___
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To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
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http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change
options

KR> pilots and builders

[dfeiger]

Was half way through construction (1981-4) when I started my flight training 
(Piper Warrior II, ex-Navy WW-II Carrier Corsair pilot/instructor).  Had 9.2 
hours on my ticket when I made the first flight in my KR2, had a lot of RC 
flying so I understood the basics. Go for it.

KR> Pilots and Builders

[CraigW]

Go for it, the KR is a great choice...but, the KR is not for a novice pilot.
 You need to get the licence and progress to more advanced aircraft before
flying the KR.  I am sure others will chime in on this so I will just say
welcome and enjoy building the plane.  I'll actually be sad when mine is done.
 I love the building part.

Craig
www.kr2seafury.com
www.flightwidgets.com



ch 25, 2015 at 7:40 AM Adam via KRnet  wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I'm a builder, not a pilot as of yet. 

KR> Pilots and Builders

[Adam]

 I'm building a KR2S widened. 43 @ longeron shouldres. 
I'm a builder, not a pilot as of yet. I told a friend I wanted to build a 
plane. Tim Stringer suggested the KR. So I researched all the quality and 
quirks. I fell in love. I know I will get my license. But Do you think I'm 
putting the kart in front of the horse?  
 I would enjoy your HO's


Adam Tippin
A KR2S builder