date:20130723

The change I suggested sounds better in, well, 
East Slavonic languages.


Come to think of it, and thanks for reminding, 
the *_TITEL one also might be usefully expanded 
to smth. like Showname of the document.


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 08:57 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

Hi Yury, *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Yury Tarasievich
yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com wrote:

Just change the *_HEADLINE_BASE one to something like *, main one.
You do not commonly use that style from UI, anyway, that's the root node for
the headings settings.


Yes, but main one is misleading and IMHO wrong.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

2013-07-23 Thread Krunoslav Šebetić


On 07/23/2013 07:58 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

Hi *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:52 AM, Mihovil Stanic
mihovil.sta...@gmail.com wrote:

Changed Heading from Naslov to Glavni naslov and marked it fuzzy so I
know to return it back when this gets fixed.
Title keept old translation Naslov.

FYI: in an old copy of the translation hr used
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Zaglavlje
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Naslov
Well now we have Zaglavlje for Header, it's not a syle and maybe it 
can be reused for styles to but  we try to be consistent in terminology, 
I like Mihovil's solution more. Think that Zaglavlje is not a way to go.


Kruno

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

2013-07-23 Thread Mihovil Stanic


Kruno had better suggestion:
Header style insted of Header, so insted of Naslov, now it's Stil 
naslova which isn't incorrect and will not confuse users.


Best regards,
Mihovil

Dana 23.7.2013. 10:05, Krunoslav Šebetić je napisao:

On 07/23/2013 07:58 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

Hi *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:52 AM, Mihovil Stanic
mihovil.sta...@gmail.com wrote:
Changed Heading from Naslov to Glavni naslov and marked it fuzzy 
so I

know to return it back when this gets fixed.
Title keept old translation Naslov.

FYI: in an old copy of the translation hr used
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Zaglavlje
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Naslov
Well now we have Zaglavlje for Header, it's not a syle and maybe 
it can be reused for styles to but  we try to be consistent in 
terminology, I like Mihovil's solution more. Think that Zaglavlje is 
not a way to go.


Kruno




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of 
Heading Base Style.


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
be a good idea to change the English string from
Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

2013-07-23 Thread Niklas Johansson


Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
The style thats called Title is not the base style of the headings, it's 
rather the document/book title.
Since there are other styles based on Heading could we run into trouble 
if we change the name?


If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then what about other styles 
that serve as base styles?

For example: Index, Caption, List.
Other base styles that is used more as a normal styles includes Text 
body, Table Contents.


Should it be a question for UX-advise?

/Niklas

Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:

Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of Heading Base Style.

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
be a good idea to change the English string from
Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

...




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n


Actually, I mean changing both:
1) Heading - Heading Base Style
2) Title - Document title

And yes, other root (not-for-end-user) styles 
might be changed on the lines of (1), too. 
Wouldn't hurt, would reduce confusion. However, 
such change would quite an undertaking, as the 
basic set of stylenames is hardcoded in source. 
I don't see it happening...


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:54 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
The style thats called Title is not the base
style of the headings, it's rather the
document/book title.
Since there are other styles based on Heading
could we run into trouble if we change the name?

If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then
what about other styles that serve as base
styles?
For example: Index, Caption, List.
Other base styles that is used more as a normal
styles includes Text body, Table Contents.

Should it be a question for UX-advise?

/Niklas

Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:

Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of
Heading Base Style.

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
be a good idea to change the English string from
Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

...






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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

2013-07-23 Thread Tom Davies

Hi ~:)
Errr, not sure if this is relevant but the Docs Team have talked about getting 
rid of all their non-standard 'newly' named styles and get right back down to 
just using the defaults.  The 'new' ones have names such as ooo-heading1 so 
you can see why i'm being a bit sarcastic about the word new!  However their 
team is not large enough to do more than just work through the official user 
guides so i don't see anything that radical happening any time soon.
Regards from 
Tom :)  






 From: Yury Tarasievich yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com
To: l10n@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 23 July 2013, 11:25
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and 
Header in various l10n
 

Actually, I mean changing both:
1) Heading - Heading Base Style
2) Title - Document title

And yes, other root (not-for-end-user) styles 
might be changed on the lines of (1), too. 
Wouldn't hurt, would reduce confusion. However, 
such change would quite an undertaking, as the 
basic set of stylenames is hardcoded in source. 
I don't see it happening...

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:54 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:
 Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
 The style thats called Title is not the base
 style of the headings, it's rather the
 document/book title.
 Since there are other styles based on Heading
 could we run into trouble if we change the name?

 If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then
 what about other styles that serve as base
 styles?
 For example: Index, Caption, List.
 Other base styles that is used more as a normal
 styles includes Text body, Table Contents.

 Should it be a question for UX-advise?

 /Niklas

 Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:
 Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of
 Heading Base Style.

 -Yury

 On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:
 Hi

 For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
 be a good idea to change the English string from
 Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it
 ...




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

2013-07-23 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a particular language 
has had it's translations broken or corrupted in some way.  Obviously the 
example of French was a bit daft because the French translation is always 
excellent.  However, it's difficult to see a good example of when a veto might 
be needed or might have been good.  You always seem to fix any problems.  
Perhaps having a formal veto option written up as a rule might encourage the 
very problem it's trying to forestall?
Regards from
Tom :)  






 From: Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com
To: Martin Srebotnjak mi...@filmsi.net 
Cc: l10n@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Monday, 22 July 2013, 21:56
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and 
Header in various l10n
 

Le 22/07/2013 22:26, Martin Srebotnjak a écrit :
 I do believe that l10n language leaders should have a right to veto
 the release in certain language (i.e. yes, you can have 4.1.0, but
 without French packages etc.).

Yes I agree with you

 So the first release gets released, but no damage is made to a certain
 language community.

Well, I don't like it in fact, I want my language to be part of the 
release party ;) So I prefer we be all together to release our version.

Kind regards
Sophie

 Lp, m.

 2013/7/22 Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com:

 Hi all,
 So here is the answer coming from Christian, it seems that lot of us are
 affected by this bug. I hope we will have a rc4 where we will be able to
 have it corrected, but I'm not sure however it's important enough to stop a
 release. Anyway, please fix for translation asap as it's corrupting
 documents, the sooner it's fixed, the better. Even if it doesn't make it in
 4.1.0 (and it's not a production version), 4.1.1 is next month. What I
 really don't like is the poor quality it renders for our translation.
 Kind regards
 Sophie
  Message original 
 Sujet: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n
 Date : Mon, 22 Jul 2013 21:39:25 +0200
 De : Christian Lohmaier lohmaier+libreoff...@googlemail.com
 Pour : Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com
 Copie à : libreoffice-dev libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org

 Hi Sophie, *,

 On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote:


 I've seen this patch
 https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/4994

 correcting this issue for French
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67093

 But much more locale than French seems to be affected from the tests made
 by
 the FR team (PT, RU, IT, SP, CN...)


 I did some grepping and applied some old translations from the time of
 the 4.1 branch where the translations did differ between the two.

 (13 languages) - but still 23 remain with the problem.

 The issue here is that data are lost because the style structure is
 modified.
 Has it been modified also for the other languages, or should I send a head
 up on the l10n list?


 after the fix for french and https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5038/
 , the following languages still have the problem:

 egrep -A3 (STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)
 */sw/source/ui/utlui.po |grep msgstr | uniq -d
 be/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Загаловак
 bn-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr শিরোনাম
 bn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr শিরোনাম
 bo/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr ཁ་བྱང་།
 bs/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Naslov
 hi/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr शीर्षक
 hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Naslov
 id/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Judul
 kok/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr मथळो
 ko/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr 제목
 mai/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr शीर्षक
 mni/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr মিংথোল
 mn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Гарчиг
 my/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr ခေါင်းစဉ်
 ne/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr शीर्षक
 nn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Overskrift
 oc/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Títol
 om/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Mataduree
 or/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr ଶୀର୍ଷକ
 sa-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr शीर्षकः
 sid/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Umo
 tg/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Сарлавҳа
 ug/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr ماۋزۇ

 kl and ky don't have a translation. So that leaves 23 languages where
 the strings are the same.

 List of languages:

 be bn-IN bn bo bs hi hr id kok ko mai mni mn my ne nn oc om or sa-IN sid tg
 ug

 ciao
 Christian



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

2013-07-23 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
Ah, i didn't realise this thread was about a particular problem that has 
happened!  

Please ignore my previous posts in this thread!
Apols and regards from 
Tom :






 From: Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com
To: l10n@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Monday, 22 July 2013, 21:22
Subject: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header 
in various l10n
 


Hi all,
So here is the answer coming from Christian, it seems that lot of us are 
affected by this bug. I hope we will have a rc4 where we will be able to 
have it corrected, but I'm not sure however it's important enough to 
stop a release. Anyway, please fix for translation asap as it's 
corrupting documents, the sooner it's fixed, the better. Even if it 
doesn't make it in 4.1.0 (and it's not a production version), 4.1.1 is 
next month. What I really don't like is the poor quality it renders for 
our translation.
Kind regards
Sophie
 Message original 
Sujet: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n
Date : Mon, 22 Jul 2013 21:39:25 +0200
De : Christian Lohmaier lohmaier+libreoff...@googlemail.com
Pour : Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com
Copie à : libreoffice-dev libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org

Hi Sophie, *,

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com wrote:

 I've seen this patch
 https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/4994

 correcting this issue for French
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67093

 But much more locale than French seems to be affected from the tests made by
 the FR team (PT, RU, IT, SP, CN...)

I did some grepping and applied some old translations from the time of
the 4.1 branch where the translations did differ between the two.

(13 languages) - but still 23 remain with the problem.

 The issue here is that data are lost because the style structure is
 modified.
 Has it been modified also for the other languages, or should I send a head
 up on the l10n list?

after the fix for french and https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5038/
, the following languages still have the problem:

egrep -A3 (STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)
*/sw/source/ui/utlui.po |grep msgstr | uniq -d
be/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Загаловак
bn-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr শিরোনাম
bn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr শিরোনাম
bo/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr ཁ་བྱང་།
bs/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Naslov
hi/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr शीर्षक
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Naslov
id/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Judul
kok/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr मथळो
ko/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr 제목
mai/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr शीर्षक
mni/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr মিংথোল
mn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Гарчиг
my/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr ခေါင်းစဉ်
ne/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr शीर्षक
nn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Overskrift
oc/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Títol
om/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Mataduree
or/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr ଶୀର୍ଷକ
sa-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr शीर्षकः
sid/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Umo
tg/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr Сарлавҳа
ug/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr ماۋزۇ

kl and ky don't have a translation. So that leaves 23 languages where
the strings are the same.

List of languages:

be bn-IN bn bo bs hi hr id kok ko mai mni mn my ne nn oc om or sa-IN sid 
tg ug

ciao
Christian



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[libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

2013-07-23 Thread Krunoslav Šebetić


On 07/23/2013 01:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a particular language has had it's 
translations broken or corrupted in some way.  Obviously the example of French was a 
bit daft because the French translation is always excellent.  However, it's difficult to see a good 
example of when a veto might be needed or might have been good.  You always seem to fix any 
problems.  Perhaps having a formal veto option written up as a rule might encourage the 
very problem it's trying to forestall?
Regards from
Tom :)


Is it possible to just send an announce mail to the announcement list 
and worn translator to check their translations and then pool fixed 
translations from Pootle before official rc, so that all languages can 
get valid (the bug free) release?


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com

Actually, I mean changing both:
1) Heading - Heading Base Style
2) Title - Document title

If the only problem is same translation for Heading and Title my
proposal is change only Title to Document Title. The other should stay
as is.

Regards

And yes, other root (not-for-end-user) styles might be changed on the
lines of (1), too. Wouldn't hurt, would reduce confusion. However, such
change would quite an undertaking, as the basic set of stylenames is
hardcoded in source. I don't see it happening...

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:54 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
The style thats called Title is not the base
style of the headings, it's rather the
document/book title.
Since there are other styles based on Heading
could we run into trouble if we change the name?

If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then
what about other styles that serve as base
styles?
For example: Index, Caption, List.
Other base styles that is used more as a normal
styles includes Text body, Table Contents.

Should it be a question for UX-advise?

/Niklas

Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:

Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of
Heading Base Style.

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
be a good idea to change the English string from
Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić kruno0...@gmail.com

 On 07/23/2013 01:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

 Hi :)
 I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a particular
 language has had it's translations broken or corrupted in some way.
  Obviously the example of French was a bit daft because the French
 translation is always excellent.  However, it's difficult to see a good
 example of when a veto might be needed or might have been good.  You always
 seem to fix any problems.  Perhaps having a formal veto option written up
 as a rule might encourage the very problem it's trying to forestall?
 Regards from
 Tom :)


 Is it possible to just send an announce mail to the announcement list and
 worn translator to check their translations and then pool fixed
 translations from Pootle before official rc, so that all languages can get
 valid (the bug free) release?



Usually when there are translation conflicts, Andras used to send a message.

If he didn´t do it, I suppose that all merge went fine, isn´t it?

Regards
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

2013-07-23 Thread Krunoslav Šebetić


On 07/23/2013 01:53 PM, Krunoslav Šebetić wrote:

On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:



2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić kruno0...@gmail.com 
mailto:kruno0...@gmail.com


On 07/23/2013 01:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a
particular language has had it's translations broken or
corrupted in some way.  Obviously the example of French was
a bit daft because the French translation is always
excellent.  However, it's difficult to see a good example of
when a veto might be needed or might have been good.  You
always seem to fix any problems.  Perhaps having a formal
veto option written up as a rule might encourage the very
problem it's trying to forestall?
Regards from
Tom :)


Is it possible to just send an announce mail to the announcement
list and worn translator to check their translations and then
pool fixed translations from Pootle before official rc, so that
all languages can get valid (the bug free) release?



Usually when there are translation conflicts, Andras used to send a 
message.


If he didn´t do it, I suppose that all merge went fine, isn´t it?



I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, 
and I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.


Also:

If the only problem is same translation for Heading and Title my
proposal is change only Title to Document Title. The other should stay
as is.
I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, 
if original differs heading from title, translators should be careful 
about that, it can not be translated the same.


We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...



It just can be two identical strings in same part/feature of the same 
module of LO, maybe in different parts, features or modules, but can't 
have two the same heading titles. I'm not sure is that even a bug...



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

2013-07-23 Thread Adolfo Jayme Barrientos

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Krunoslav Šebetić kruno0...@gmail.com wrote:
 We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...

I disagree: why is it our fault? Shouldn't LibreOffice handle styles
in a translation-agnostic way in the first place?

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić kruno0...@gmail.com

  On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:


 I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, and
 I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.


 Also:

 If the only problem is same translation for Heading and Title my
 proposal is change only Title to Document Title. The other should stay
 as is.

  I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, if
 original differs heading from title, translators should be careful about
 that, it can not be translated the same.


But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
we fix?





 We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...






-- 
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n


Better comprehensibility would also be good.
The Title-Name of the document variant might 
also be considered for (2).


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 02:42 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
Actually, I mean changing both:
1) Heading - Heading Base Style
2) Title - Document title
If the only problem is same translation for
Heading and Title my proposal is change only
Title to Document Title. The other should
stay as is.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

I have a solution.

PO files do have a comment field.

This was unused before because the actual strings resided in sdf files
and po files were just a derivative of sdf files. But now PO and POT
files are the true base.

So I guess it is job of authors of strings and documentation team to
write to those fields, as well as translation teams to warn co-workers
and other teams with a short notice that can prevent disaster (BEWARE:
this translation should not be the same as with style Title ...).

Lp, m.

2013/7/23 Sérgio Marques smarque...@gmail.com:
 2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić kruno0...@gmail.com

  On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:


 I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, and
 I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.


 Also:

 If the only problem is same translation for Heading and Title my
 proposal is change only Title to Document Title. The other should stay
 as is.

  I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, if
 original differs heading from title, translators should be careful about
 that, it can not be translated the same.


 But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
 we fix?





 We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...






 --
 Sérgio Marques

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com

Better comprehensibility would also be good.
The Title-Name of the document variant might also be considered for (2).

I don´t think so as Christian explained:

The TITEL one is for the Document Title, The title of a book that
usually only appears once at the beginning/on the cover of the
document, or also used as chapter title.

So if this is document title, it´s not de document name. That might even be
confuse because of I also understand Name of document as Filename.

Regards

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 02:42 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
Actually, I mean changing both:
1) Heading - Heading Base Style
2) Title - Document title
If the only problem is same translation for
Heading and Title my proposal is change only
Title to Document Title. The other should
stay as is.

...

--
Sérgio Marques

Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

2013/7/23 Martin Srebotnjak mi...@filmsi.net

 I have a solution.

 PO files do have a comment field.

 This was unused before because the actual strings resided in sdf files
 and po files were just a derivative of sdf files. But now PO and POT
 files are the true base.

 So I guess it is job of authors of strings and documentation team to
 write to those fields, as well as translation teams to warn co-workers
 and other teams with a short notice that can prevent disaster (BEWARE:
 this translation should not be the same as with style Title ...).


Agreed but please notice that those strings came from OO and never was the
need to change. To add those comments we need to review strings and know
what they are used for.

I must say even tough I´m fluent in English, I don´t use all suite so I
really can´t tell which one are fine or not.

Nor do I have the ability to produce code cause I´m not a developer.

What I can do is spot when some string is wrong and propose a correction
but also as bug report and not coding.

Regards



 Lp, m.

 2013/7/23 Sérgio Marques smarque...@gmail.com:
  2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić kruno0...@gmail.com
 
   On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:
 
 
  I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, and
  I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.
 
 
  Also:
 
  If the only problem is same translation for Heading and Title my
  proposal is change only Title to Document Title. The other should
 stay
  as is.
 
   I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, if
  original differs heading from title, translators should be careful about
  that, it can not be translated the same.
 
 
  But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
  we fix?
 
 
 
 
 
  We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...
 
 
 
 
 
 
  --
  Sérgio Marques
 
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

2013-07-23 Thread Christian Lohmaier

Hi Sérgio, *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Sérgio Marques smarque...@gmail.com wrote:
 2013/7/23 Martin Srebotnjak mi...@filmsi.net

Why was there no announcement when getting the changes from pootle?
→ because there was no check that triggered a warning. Also there was
no merge-conflict, as the problem is not with the translated strings,
but how they are used.

And yes, a comment in the po file is one way to avoid that. And yes,
not using the translated names as internal IDs of course is better. It
will confuse the heck out of users to have two styles with the same
name, with no way to distinguish them. But at least the document state
would stay consistent. So you would still need the additional
checks/hint for translators.

 Agreed but please notice that those strings came from OO and never was the
 need to change.

No need for change was always there - but probably nobody complained
for that language. This time round, large language communities were
affected that did spot the inconsistency. So call it luck that the
bigger groups did make that mistake to take this problem into focus.

 2013/7/23 Sérgio Marques smarque...@gmail.com:
  2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić kruno0...@gmail.com
   On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:
  [...]
  But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
  we fix?

I thought this was pretty clear: You must not use the same string for
those two IDs. The Heading style must have a different translation
than then Title style.

  We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...

At least nobody did spot that problem in all the time where the
strings were the same for over 30 languages...

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing


Would such comment be a solution, really?

For one, PO fileset is local. Work put there is 
being constantly lost, if slowly.


Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the root 
source of English strings?

Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 05:35 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
...

And yes, a comment in the po file is one way to avoid that. And yes,
not using the translated names as internal IDs of course is better. It
will confuse the heck out of users to have two styles with the same
name, with no way to distinguish them. But at least the document state
would stay consistent. So you would still need the additional
checks/hint for translators.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

'Title', 'Heading', 'Name of the document' -- 
all these are good and bad. That string (being 
the label for the 1st field on the 2nd tab 
'Description' in Document properties) is too 
vague in its purpose and use, anyway. And it 
seems it's a rudiment from times of restrictive 
filenames, never set deliberately.


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 04:46 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:



2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com
mailto:yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com

Better comprehensibility would also be good.
The Title-Name of the document variant
might also be considered for (2).


I don´t think so as Christian explained:

The TITEL one is for the Document Title, The
title of a book that
usually only appears once at the beginning/on
the cover of the
document, or also used as chapter title.

So if this is document title, it´s not de
document name. That might even be confuse
because of I also understand Name of document
as Filename.

Regards


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 02:42 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
 Actually, I mean changing both:
 1) Heading - Heading Base Style
 2) Title - Document title
If the only problem is same translation for
Heading and Title my proposal is
change only
Title to Document Title. The other
should
stay as is.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

2013-07-23 Thread Sophie


Le 23/07/2013 17:39, Yury Tarasievich a écrit :

Would such comment be a solution, really?


I don't know, we find the bug because we use the same set of docs during 
the tests of FR versions. Then we narrow that the EN version was ok and 
the bug appears between beta1 and beta2 and was present in other 
languages. So may be yes, having some comments in the po file would help 
to not propagate that sort of error.


For one, PO fileset is local. Work put there is being constantly lost,
if slowly.

Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the root source of English strings?
Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?


The latest pot file is published here by Andras
http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/

Some of us do not use Pootle for translation or as a repository.
Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing



On 07/23/2013 06:48 PM, Sophie wrote:
...

Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the
root source of English strings?
Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?


The latest pot file is published here by Andras
http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/

Some of us do not use Pootle for translation or
as a repository.


Yes, us for one. :) That's why I'm asking: what 
is the definitive source for the English strings 
and their context? E.g., in the pre-split days 
there was SDF root source and POT fileset was a 
derivative.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com:
 Would such comment be a solution, really?

 For one, PO fileset is local. Work put there is being constantly lost, if
 slowly.

 Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the root source of English strings?
 Is one Andras publishes such root source?
 Or is there one more root-ish than that?

A pot file can contain an English/source comment, a po file keeps that
comment and can add/edit a localized version or comment to that
comment.
So I think that would be the solution for those few tricky strings.

I just hope that when pot files are generated they would also get the
comment from the code i.e. the comment for pot file should be included
with the original string in the code. Someone correct me if I am
wrong.

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing


On 07/23/2013 07:23 PM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:

SDF is deprecated - POT files are generated directly from code, and PO
files are directly checked back into code.


So where would the comment come from after the 
re-generation?


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com:

 So where would the comment come from after the re-generation?


I have written that already in another mail - from the code, from the
same place where the string comes. There should be some refactoring of
the toolkit to get pot files generated, of course.

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

2013-07-23 Thread Christian Lohmaier

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Yury Tarasievich
yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com wrote:
 'Title', 'Heading', 'Name of the document' -- all these are good and bad.

No - in this context Name of the document is simply wrong for either
of the two strings.

And honestly: What is your point? You throw in random strings from
other places, but I seriously fail to see your point.

ciao
Christian

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[libreoffice-l10n] Bug 67227: longer-than-in-English strings won't fit

2013-07-23 Thread Mihkel Tõnnov

Hi all,

I found a regression caused by converting dialogs to the new Glade UI,
whereby strings that are considerably longer than their English originals,
are cut off at the end. On my setup, it affects Estonian, Finnish, French,
and sometimes German strings (and most likely others that I didn't test).

All this probably depends on font size, so could you see if this affects
your locale, too, and document your findings at
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67227 so the problem could be
fixed?

Best regards,
Mihkel
Estonian team

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

My cryptic point is: the terse string 'Title' 
(having ID *_TITEL) in this particular case is 
not only uninformative, but also is capable of 
producing an error after translation.


Hence, it'd be good not only to obtain 
divergence of English originals for this and for 
*_HEADLINE_BASE, but also to put into *_TITEL 
something more informative.


Therefore, suggestions to the tune of 'Name of 
the document' or even 'Heading of the document' 
(to clearly indicate it's not about filename, 
but about some sort of key entry).


BTW, Help, at least in 3.6.7, contains precious 
nothing on this string.


-Yury


On 07/23/2013 08:50 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Yury Tarasievich
yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com wrote:

'Title', 'Heading', 'Name of the document' -- all these are good and bad.


No - in this context Name of the document is simply wrong for either
of the two strings.

And honestly: What is your point? You throw in random strings from
other places, but I seriously fail to see your point.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

So effectively such placing of the comments is a 
thing of future, relying on several changes in 
the technological process (comments proper + 
toolkit refactored)?


I was more interested in what might be done in 
that matter sort of now and read your message 
from a wrong perspective.


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 07:40 PM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com:


So where would the comment come from after the re-generation?



I have written that already in another mail - from the code, from the
same place where the string comes. There should be some refactoring of
the toolkit to get pot files generated, of course.

Lp, m.



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com:
 So effectively such placing of the comments is a thing of future, relying on
 several changes in the technological process (comments proper + toolkit
 refactored)?

 I was more interested in what might be done in that matter sort of now and
 read your message from a wrong perspective.


As Sophie wrote, it might already be possible, the right person to ask
would be ... Andras?

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Bug 67227: longer-than-in-English strings won't fit

I´m using 4.0.x in Portuguese

The Portuguese strings are longer than English ones. But none of them are
cutted.

I will try it in 4.1 to check them.

Regards

2013/7/23 Mihkel Tõnnov mihh...@gmail.com

 Hi all,

 I found a regression caused by converting dialogs to the new Glade UI,
 whereby strings that are considerably longer than their English originals,
 are cut off at the end. On my setup, it affects Estonian, Finnish, French,
 and sometimes German strings (and most likely others that I didn't test).

 All this probably depends on font size, so could you see if this affects
 your locale, too, and document your findings at
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67227 so the problem could be
 fixed?

 Best regards,
 Mihkel
 Estonian team

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Sérgio Marques

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Bug 67227: longer-than-in-English strings won't fit

 2013/7/23 Mihkel Tõnnov mihh...@gmail.com
 I found a regression caused by converting dialogs to the new Glade UI,
 whereby strings that are considerably longer than their English originals,
 are cut off at the end. On my setup, it affects Estonian, Finnish, French,
 and sometimes German strings (and most likely others that I didn't test).

 All this probably depends on font size, so could you see if this affects
 your locale, too, and document your findings at
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67227 so the problem could be
 fixed?

I confirmed it for Slovenian and quoted some examples.

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Bug 67227: longer-than-in-English strings won't fit

2013-07-23 Thread Sophie


Le 23/07/2013 23:15, Martin Srebotnjak a écrit :

2013/7/23 Mihkel Tõnnov mihh...@gmail.com

I found a regression caused by converting dialogs to the new Glade UI,
whereby strings that are considerably longer than their English originals,
are cut off at the end. On my setup, it affects Estonian, Finnish, French,
and sometimes German strings (and most likely others that I didn't test).

All this probably depends on font size, so could you see if this affects
your locale, too, and document your findings at
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67227 so the problem could be
fixed?


I confirmed it for Slovenian and quoted some examples.


Did you tried with the last RC? I remember I reported this issue (that 
was on security options) and that was fixed. When I check in the RC3 FR 
I get currently I don't have strings truncated in the option dialogs you 
mention in the issue.

Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Bug 67227: longer-than-in-English strings won't fit