Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Claiming an extension

[Michael Bauer]

This one

https://extensions.libreoffice.org/en/extensions/show/an-dearbhair-beag-scottish-gaelic-spellchecker

Michael

PS: it's great that you can help, but if hostmaster@ is the wrong place 
to ask, then we should update the guidance


Sgrìobh Heiko Tietze na leanas 17/08/2022 aig 06:39:

You can ask me. What extension is it exactly?

On 16.08.22 20:09, Michael Bauer wrote:
Different question, I have a spellchecker extension but the whole 
setup seems to have been migrated to a new framework and I no longer 
seem to 'own' my own extension. On the extension site it says to 
contact hostmas...@documentfoundation.org which I did but it's been 
almost a week and I haven't had a response. Is that still the correct 
place to reclaim an extension or is there another way?


Michael





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[libreoffice-l10n] Claiming an extension

[Michael Bauer]

Different question, I have a spellchecker extension but the whole setup 
seems to have been migrated to a new framework and I no longer seem to 
'own' my own extension. On the extension site it says to contact 
hostmas...@documentfoundation.org which I did but it's been almost a 
week and I haven't had a response. Is that still the correct place to 
reclaim an extension or is there another way?


Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] machine translation error message

[Michael Bauer]

Thanks, message is gone in gd-GB!

Michael

Sgrìobh Christian Lohmaier na leanas 16/08/2022 aig 16:44:

Hi *,

should be fixed.

ciao
Christian




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[libreoffice-l10n] machine translation error message

[Michael Bauer]

Started on bringing the gd-GB localization back up to speed after a bit 
of a hiatus. I'll gloss over my thoughts on seeing a lot of 'new' 
strings where en-US has played with typography formatting ...


Question: we asked to have machine translation disabled for Gaelic 
because it's shite, but how do I get rid of the error message that pops 
up every time I move to a new unit. It goes "The request for machine 
translation using tmserver has failed: HTTPError: 500 Sever Error 
yadayadaya". It costs me several precious seconds to sit out this 
message so I'd like to get rid of it.


Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Websites in various languages that need updating

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Mike

I don't want to move gd to the any new design. We're using the old 
design deliberately because it allows custom content. We need the custom 
content because in 2019, the install process for non-English LO remains 
user-unfriendly. So we either make it clear to the end-user at the point 
of download HOW they get the product to appear in Scots Gaelic (which we 
do in the custom content) OR we end up with people either giving up in 
private or sending endless support requests to our Gaelic IT support 
service.


Until installation of the desired UI becomes simple, I don't see a way 
around this.


Michael

Sgrìobh Mike Saunders na leanas 20/10/2019 aig 12:16:

Hello everyone,

I've gone through various language versions of our website, and made a
list of those that are using the older design. If anyone would like to
give us a hand and update them, we'd really appreciate it! That's a
great way to help the project and spread the word.

I can also reach out via the blog and social media for help here too,
but I wanted to start on our own lists. So, the sites:


[...]

Scottish Gaelic: https://gd.libreoffice.org




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Re: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Weblate instance for testing purposes

[Michael Bauer]

I don't think that was the problem with Pootle though, that was just 
devs not commenting strings, which is a problem whatever the platform. 
Moving to Weblate won't solve that ;)


Am Michael Eile [The other Michael]

Sgrìobh Michael Wolf na leanas 30/08/2019 aig 11:31:

Hi,

I miss still a really important feature for translators: Localization 
notes that make the meaning of English strings clearer. there are e.g. 
simple things like: Is a word a noun or a verb, e.g. "download". Some 
words can have a different menaing in another context. There are those 
strange comments instead, with cryptic strings. I do not know what 
those cryptic strings shall mean.


Weblate would be a chance to bring this feature in. In the past, 
someone started to use localization notes on Pootle but they were a 
few only.


Then, I did not find the option to filter strings in the strings 
overview of a file anymore so I can display e.g. untranslated strings 
only.



Regards,

Michael Wolf



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Re: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Weblate instance for testing purposes

[Michael Bauer]

Then again I ask the question, what does Weblate *do* that Pootle 
*doesn't* do that we *need/want*?


Michael

Sgrìobh Ilmari Lauhakangas na leanas 29/08/2019 aig 11:59:
I am sure Pootle takes patches, there is no need to fork (it is not 
declared as abandoned, progress is just slow). The problem is having 
to do the work. With Weblate there is active development that does not 
require investment from us.


Ilmari 



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Re: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Weblate instance for testing purposes

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Sophie

Ah I must have missed that. Would it not be easier to simply fork 
Pootle? I mean, it's relatively mature as a platform so unless TDF is 
needing a whole host of features for translation that Pootle currently 
doesn't have, why not stick with what we know & have and tinker with it 
as needed?


Michael

Sgrìobh sophi na leanas 28/08/2019 aig 11:04:

Hi Michael,

As said, Pootle is no more developed nor maintained, we need to find
alternatives for the future.

Cheers
Sophie



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Re: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Weblate instance for testing purposes

[Michael Bauer]

Thank you but my point was less "how can I fix it" but rather more "I'm 
not sure about moving to a platform where we have to start by fixing 
fairly basic issues".


Michael

Sgrìobh Ilmari Lauhakangas na leanas 28/08/2019 aig 10:51:


Here are the language definitions: 
https://github.com/WeblateOrg/language-data


Ilmari




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Weblate instance for testing purposes

[Michael Bauer]

Very first impression is "Not sure I trust them to do the job properly". 
They list ga-IE as Irish (fine) but gd-GB as "Gaelic" rather than the 
much clearer "Scots Gaelic" or "Scottish Gaelic". Given the huge amount 
of confusion people have over Irish Gaelic, Manx Gaelic and Scots 
Gaelic, that suggests a lack of thought/research when language issues 
are concerned. We're going to have endless people ... ok not endless, a 
number of people signing up for the wrong language. Not fun for any 
locale manager either way.


I may have missed this but what's wrong with Pootle? It has worked for a 
long time? If you asked me to name ONE thing I'd like where I'd like to 
see major change, it would be to unpick Source Locale from en-US so that 
every time en-US plays with caps or typos, it doesn't affect all other 
locales. Moving to a new tool, however sexy their pitch, will just mean 
an entirely new set of headaches instead of the old set of headaches in 
my experience and I have accounts on most of them. Doesn't matter if 
it's Crowdin, Poole, Pontoon, DDG, WordPress, Launchpad etc etc, they 
all drive you nuts as a translator at some level.


Michael

Sgrìobh sophi na leanas 27/08/2019 aig 15:37:

Your feedback is very welcome of course, we will take it into account
before making a decision.



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] cui strings

[Michael Bauer]

Ah ok, many thanks!

Michael

Sgrìobh ml.nishibori.kiyot...@gmail.com na leanas 27/04/2019 aig 14:46:
These strings are tips displayed as "Tips of the day" which may be new 
feature of comming LibreOffice 6.3.

See the screenshot :
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OzqDFb4ijiiK9G_gzNYJmnXeuo___u5m



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[libreoffice-l10n] cui strings

[Michael Bauer]

There's about 5k words which have appeared in the cui folder. They look 
a bit like Help strings and I was wondering what they are (sorry if I 
missed an announcement) and if they should be part of the main UI 
project or sit apart?


Cheers

Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Spellchecking language names showing up as ISO code

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Eike

I copy-pasted that fromhttps://www.ethnologue.com/language/ktz
I'll use U+01C0
Thanks. Yeah, Ethnologue... it's neat (to have), but not tidy, probably 
the best way I can put it. They have (or at least had) rather opaque 
processes, pulling data from I-don't-know-where and once it's there, 
reviewing it seems to be almost impossible. I was one of many trying in 
vain to get an error fixed years ago (they had listed a province name as 
a dialect of Basque) and nothing since has convinced me they're too 
worried about the fine detail or fixing stuff, no matter how good your 
credentials or the references you provide.



Wait, now you wrote it with a straight ' apostrophe instead of ’ U+2019
... ;-)
Using Juǀ’hoan instead.

My bad, too many keyboard layouts in use :)

Many thanks!

Michael


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Re: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Spellchecking language names showing up as ISO code

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Eike

Sorry for the late reply, yesterday turned a bit crazy.

Right so both technically are wrong, Ju|'hoan means person and -si is a 
plural ending, the language is called Juǀ'hoan(si) kokxui "language of 
the people" in full but when referring to in English, native speakers 
prefer just the label Juǀ'hoan and this is indeed what the Literacy 
Project has been using as their preferred English term for the language. 
I think it would be good sticking with that, seeing they will be the 
primary users.


Also, could you change the pipe character to ǀ (U+01C0)? They look 
similar on screen but it's the wrong character.


Other than that, many many thanks for your help!

Michael

Sgrìobh Eike Rathke na leanas 08/05/2018 aig 19:03:

Hi,

On Tuesday, 2018-05-08 12:15:05 +0200, Eike Rathke wrote:


I can add Juǀ’hoan [ktz-NA] (https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ktz btw
lists it as Ju|’hoansi and https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/ktz gives
several names, with Juǀ'hoansi as latest addition) and Naro [nhr-BW]

I usually prefer to go with the name given in Ethnologue as "official"
English name so that would be Ju|’hoansi (also note the slight
difference | vs ǀ confusing stuff). Any objections?

And done with
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=6b2fa7792a8e4feafb6920f0b289bf2c525d14e5

   Eike



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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: Fixing new spell out numbering styles in LibreOffice 6.1

[Michael Bauer]

1. Are these numbers correct in your language?

You can check here, too: https://numbertext.github.io/
index.html#testimonials

2. Do we need to change the default format etc. according to the normal
usage of your country/language variant?

For example, in the recent implementation, British English and American
English differ with the “and”

101 -> “One hundred and one”: en-AU, en-GB, en-IE, en-NZ
101 -> “One hundred one”: en-US etc.
In Gaelic, there are "ands" all over the place in counting, so 101 would 
have to be

Ceud 's a h-aon
hundred and a-one (more on that a-one further down)


3. Is it enough to support only a single gender in Spanish etc. languages
to cover common outline and page number usage in publishing?

It's not really permissible to do First, Second, Third without stating 
the object (even usage like "first we need to do this, second comes 
that" does not exist in Gaelic).

Book/Part/Chapter/Section/Page/Paragraph One, or simply One (normal usage
in English outline numbering)
The number system in Gaelic (and Irish) has a special number set 1-10 (I 
think Irish may go higher) if you're just counting One, Two, Three 
without stating the object i.e. counting pages is

aon duilleag, dà dhuilleag, trì duilleagan
but counting one two three without an object is
a h-aon, a dhà, a trì
sort of "a-one, a-two, a-three" until you reach ten, then it's just
aon deug, dà dheug, trì deug ...
First Book/Part/Chapter/Section/Page/Paragraph (less common in 
English, but

default numbering styles cover this, too)
Here Scottish Gaelic and Irish will have the added complication that 
depending on the initial sound of the noun, the noun changes i.e. part = 
pàirt but

a' chiad phàirt (first part)
an dàrna pàirt (second part)
but with a dental
a' chiad duilleag (first page)
an dàrna duilleag (second page)

Irish in addition has a change with vowel initials e.g.
an chéad alt (first article)
an dara halt (second article)

So if these are presented for localization, they must come with the noun 
in question, otherwise the output will be ungrammatical. Unless a rule 
can be written for such locales.


Michael

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[libreoffice-l10n] Spellchecking language names showing up as ISO code

[Michael Bauer]

I'm helping out with two new spell checkers and we're almost there, but 
there's one thing I can't figure. The .oxt installs and I can select the 
language and the spellchecker words as expected. But when I select the 
language for the paragraph, the show up as the respective ISO codes ktz 
(expecting Juǀ’hoan) and nhr (expecting Naro). Does LO pull the language 
names from the spellchecker files or is there something I'm missing?


Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LibreOffice Online instance to check your translation

[Michael Bauer]

Great, thanks Andras!

Michael

Sgrìobh Andras Timar na leanas 18/01/2018 aig 10:38:

Hi Michael,

Yesterday I was too tired to find the solution, but this morning I 
found it. Now Welsh and Scottish Gaelic are selectable[1], and you can 
test LibreOffice Online in these languages. I can add more locales at 
request.


[1] 
https://8de8bb4a-e089-44e4-9fc5-bc97b4c3eb89.pub.cloud.scaleway.com/nextcloud/index.php/settings/user


Best regards,
Andras


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Re: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LibreOffice Online instance to check your translation

[Michael Bauer]

I haven't had a chance to check it out yet but will we have the same 
problem for gd-GB? Perhaps it would be good to compare the list of 
locales on Nextcloud to that of LO locales?


Michael

Sgrìobh Andras Timar na leanas 17/01/2018 aig 21:25:

Hi Rhos,

This is embarrassing, but it seems that Nextcloud does not have Welsh
localization, while ownCloud has (on demo.collaboracloudsuite.com). I found
cy_GB files in the settings/l10n/ folder of Nextcloud, so in theory the
Welsh language should be selectable at Settings. Maybe it's a Nextcloud
bug. I'm sorry about that.

LO Online has the Welsh localization, but you cannot switch to that
currently. I hope that the situation will improve after some time, this is
a bleeding edge test server with latest versions of all components
(Nextcloud, LibreOffice, LibreOffice Online).

Best regards,
Andras



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Re: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] 50% of translations lost

[Michael Bauer]

I just gritted my teeth and started going through them while watching 
TV. I suspect nobody is going to do much about this batch but I 
*seriously* hope someone is taking the proposal further to tag source 
changes in future so locales can opt out of changes like Open file > 
Open File etc (if there's a bug, I'd like to subscribe?). Because I am 
really unhappy with LO right now about this and if I have to do this a 
3rd (or 4th?) time, I'm seriously going to question my future participation.


Michael

Sgrìobh Berend Ytsma na leanas 09/12/2017 aig 13:52:

Hello,

Is there any progress, in recovering of the translation.

It's been two weeks ago.
It would be nice if it's been restored before christmass.

Greetings

Berend Ytsma
Frisian translator



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Translation memory

[Michael Bauer]

Same here

Michael

Sgrìobh Olivier Hallot na leanas 22/10/2017 aig 11:08:

Hi

Please confirm that the Pootle translation memory does not pick the
strings from the current file into its TM.

sc/messages.po has dozens of repeated strings (e.g. Number, Alpha, Beta,
Mean, Value, Data, ...) and no memory for the 2nd occurrence and beyond.

The TM I get is either from another file or another project, but not
from the current file.

As translator, this is seen as a bug. Anyone confirm?

Cheers



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Re: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Michael Bauer]

I'm not sure if this is meant funny or serious. It's not funny. I don't 
expect paying for translating LO but I would consider it courteous if a 
project I'm donating *lifetime* to would not behave as if my donated 
lifetime is worth nothing.


If serious, then hooray for you, a lot of us are not getting paid for 
our time.


Michael

Sgrìobh Krunose na leanas 13/10/2017 aig 07:00:


Translating LibreOffice bought me a house.

Kruno





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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Michael Bauer]

Sometimes 'cosmetic' change could mean a difference. To me is 
indicative if string is 1) in all caps, if 2) first letter is 
capitalized and if 3) all letters are lowercased. 


Not a good reason Kruno. For one, not all scripts even entertain the 
idea of caps. CJK, Nagari, Amhara, Arabic-based ... non of them have 
caps. Yet somehow they manage to make their UI work.


Secondly, quite a lot of locales have strict lowercasing. Like ours. So 
caps in en-US don't make a blind bit of difference to our translations.


Thirdly, there is largely no rhyme, no reason, and apparently no season. 
In en-US, caps follow whatever the flavour of the month is. Evidence? 
Sure. Just as Microsoft was abandoning sentence case, LibreOffice went 
for it, or the other way round, I can't remember. Either way, round 
about the same time, their respective UI went *exactly* the opposite way.


If LO does not want to start treating en-US as a translatable locale, it 
really needs to introduce a new change category into Pootle of "cap 
change" which does not void existing translations but introduces a QA 
flag like "missing placeholder".


Right now, it feels like every time en-US play with their caps, they 
give 100 or so other locales the finger, as if our time didn't matter 
two hoots. And it's NOT like this is a novel issue, we've debated this 
ad nauseum and STILL you dump these on us volunteers. Do you know how 
much I'd charge for this kind of time?


Michael

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[libreoffice-l10n] 11k new?

[Michael Bauer]

Is the 11k new real in LO Master or is this like last time lots of 100% 
matches that ought to get matched automatically?


It looks to me, at a casual glance that it's the same silliness as last 
time, i.e. almost all matches that should be automated.


Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Addendum: LibreOffice survey translation

[Michael Bauer]

Could someone add gd pls? I'm not on redmine:

Co mheud bliadhna a chleachd thu LibreOffice agus na ro-theachdaireachd 
aige?


Thanks!

Michael

Sgrìobh Cor Nouws na leanas 13/08/2017 aig 11:15:

https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/2341

for that ("For how many years are you a user of LibreOffice and its
predecessor?").
Please just add the translation as comment (bg, cs,
es, fr, nl, zh are needed, and perhaps also it).



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Need your opinion on a feature

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Sophie

Would it not be better to arrange with the Unicode Consortium to have 
this done in conjunction with them? They are trying more and more to 
coordinate with companies like Microsoft to align data and if we do this 
"just by ourselves" I fear there will be a lot of extra work down 
stream. We had this recently with all the emoji and country names 
between CLDR and Microsoft.


It might also be worth checking where Wikipedia 
(https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicodeblock_IPA-Erweiterungen for 
example) get their names from?


Either way, I think for this feature to be useful the search needs to 
search at the same time for the localized name and the official unicode 
name, because otherwise if I search (for example) for "latin small 
character" and some have been localized to "Lateinischer Kleinbuchstabe" 
and some not, I get a strange list of results.


Plus of course there's my old pipe-dream of being able to assing a 
keyboard shortcut to the character (like you can in Word) once you found 
it, using the character map to search for chars is very time consuming 
if you have to do it a lot. It keeps popping up in enhancement bugs too 
now and then

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41981

Michael

Sgrìobh Sophie na leanas 03/08/2017 aig 14:42:

Hi all,

Wanted your opinion on this patch:
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/40563/

Soon it will be possible to search for unicode names, however this is
only possible in English. I don't think that maps exist in other
language (well it exists in French but it's the only language I'm aware of).
Translating all this is not possible. Would it be ok for you to
implement this feature anyway? I'm balanced because this is a very
useful feature, but on the other hand it won't be for some users.

Cheers
Sophie


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Saving impossible - Server Error

[Michael Bauer]

I'm also getting Server Error when trying to submit something

Michael

Sgrìobh Michael Wolf na leanas 10/06/2017 aig 20:20:

Hi,

I want to translate Libreoffice on Pootle but I can't save my 
translations. I get the error message "Server Error" instead.


Michael


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Spellchecking install loop?

[Michael Bauer]

Thanks Marco, bug filed, probably good if you comment in the bug that 
this happens to you too.


https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108460

Michael

Sgrìobh Marco A.G.Pinto na leanas 11/06/2017 aig 10:55:

Michael,

It has happened to me several times too.

Kind regards,
 >Marco A.G.Pinto
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] gettext and translations

[Michael Bauer]

Big +1 for what Martin and Mikhel have said about matching existing 
translations and not losing the ability to translate to different 
targets depending on the context.


If there is going to be wholesale re-organisation as to how the strings 
are presented for translation, two other considerations also spring to 
mind which I didn't see on the list:
1) Plurals? I think LO still doesn't do plurals properly (but I may be 
confusing projects here, apologies if it does). This would also tie in 
with the 1 source string » multiple target strings issue.
2) Turning en-US into a to-be-translated locale and making the source 
strings just en or some fake locale? That way, en-US can change case, 
correct en-US typos and other such stuff which is English specific to 
its heart's content without hitting all the other locales at the same time.


Michael


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Really 8,000 words more for Master%

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Sophie,

I know, sorry if you felt this was aimed at you - it wasn't - though I 
am quite certain your assessment was correct, which is why I "replied" 
to your post. It was aimed at whoever is letting this happen again and 
again and again. This has been a complaint for as long as I can remember 
on LO and I'm somewhere between gutted and furious that it's still 
happening. Sure, maybe a locale like German or French has the 
translators to throw at another 28k of work that was already done but 
most locales aren't that fortunate. Take Uyghur, it was at 97% when OO 
and LO split. There hasn't been much translation activity in this locale 
in both OO and LO since and there haven't been *that* many genuinely new 
strings in LO actually but that has left Uyghur on 61% and if I click 
through the strings on Uyghur, it's one 100% match after the other.


Yes, this is an angry post (not angry at Sophia) but before someone 
slaps me down for being angry, maybe ask yourself at which point getting 
angry is justified in a FOSS project when someone somewhere for some 
arcane reason keeps wasting your lifetime as if it didn't matter. Do we 
really want to burn out localizers like they were a dime a dozen?


Michael

Sgrìobh Sophia Schroeder na leanas 13/04/2017 aig 19:05:


Hi Michael, *

I am the wrong person to give you proper answers. Am just a translator 
like you.


I just wrote from my personal POV and vague knowledge from what I'm 
getting.


Christian Lohmaier is the right reference person for such things.

So look at his mails about this issues. :-)



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Really 8,000 words more for Master%

[Michael Bauer]

This is getting absurd. I had just about gotten the last batch of 
updates down to about 2k, most of which were I-don't-know-what changes 
which left a high number of translated strings fuzzy. Now Gaelic is back 
up to 28k and clicking through them, it looks like almost all are 100% 
TM matches somewhere.


How is this even vaguely respectful of translator time?

Right now, I'm not so sure that it's worth my time translating further 
cause I'm not translating, am I? I'm a human TM-match-insertion-tool.


Michael

Sgrìobh Sophia Schroeder na leanas 13/04/2017 aig 17:04:

Some of them are already translated somewhere and are still in the translation 
memory system.

Unfortunately there is no automatic tool (yet) to put these given translations 
into the new strings and be done.

Yes it is worth to translate even further.;-)



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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: LibreOffice 5.3 projects created in pootle - copyright year bumped in 5.2 as well

[Michael Bauer]

Why can't we handle version numbers and copyright years by placeholder?

Michael


Please also note that there have been string changes in LibreOffice
5.2 UI projects due to bumping the copyright year to 2017.



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Succession of Breton translation

[Michael Bauer]

Demat Gwnn,

I have given you Reviewer rights for now (that's just short of admin) 
because I don't know if DenisArnaud is still active at all or not.


Happy translating

Michael

Sgrìobh Gwenn MEYNIER na leanas 21/02/2017 aig 12:19:

Hello,


Alan, the previous libreoffice translator for Breton language has 
stopped working on the project and I will take his place.


Can I have the translator rights on Pootle ? ( 
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/br/ )



Thank you,

Gwenn 


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle downtime

[Michael Bauer]

I wasn't suggesting switching tools either, they all come with their own 
annoyances. Transifex doesn't have the greatest UI and adding new 
locales can take forever. Pontoon is hardly a TMS, it matches 100% 
matches but other than that, I find it highly ineffective as a TM. 
There's nothing wrong with Pootle, it's pretty much the best I reckon of 
the FOSS TMs out there, it's just the way these updates take place that 
is ineffective on LO.


Michael

Sgrìobh Sophie Gautier na leanas 14/02/2017 aig 09:02:

I'm not sure this is right now about switching to another tool, but rather
about maybe changing the setup:
As Michael hinted at, maybe it's better running updates/upgrades on a
parallel system instead of the current live instance. Then switch
IP-addresses or virtual machines once the maintenance is done (and tested).


Yes this is the lesson learned:(  that should not be long now, Dwayne and
his team should be over soon and Cloph will proceed. I'll keep you informed
with the info I get.
Cheers
Sophie



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[libreoffice-l10n] Pootle downtime

[Michael Bauer]

Pardon my French but the Pootle downtimes are getting ridiculous. Surely 
to goodness there must be a way of running upgrades without bringing 
down a live system for a month or two at a time...


Michael

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[libreoffice-l10n] Pootle upgrades - a suggestion

[Michael Bauer]

Given we seem to be experiencing extended downtimes every time the 
system is upgraded (incidentally, why does this not seem to happen 
elsewhere e.g. Mozilla's Pootle?), isn't there a way of running two 
instances which can be upgraded and switched on/off independently so if 
there is a need for an upgrade, it happens in the background and when 
it's done, the new version is switched live and then the other can be 
upgraded too?


From the translators' perspective, the way it's currently done is very 
annoying. I would have had the time this week to bring us back to 100% 
but guess what, it's down...


Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Number of new strings in master

[Michael Bauer]

They're not all new. I had the same and I suspect it's another round of 
"oh look the devs played with the en-US string names" which makes a 
string "new" even if the text hasn't actually changed. There are a lot 
of 100% matches in those 5000 words.


Michael

Sgrìobh Veneto ABC na leanas 03/01/2017 aig 06:45:

Hi all,
the same problem seem to affect Venetian language in pootle: we have >5000
new words to teanslate in Master UI, where before the upgrade we had only
600 words to translate. Are new words all to be translated?




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle upgrade and migration finished

[Michael Bauer]

Firefox on Windows 10, I'm getting it on my desktop and laptop. 
Michael 

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On 26 Dec 2016 16:42, Sophie <gautier.sop...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Michael,
Le 24/12/2016 à 20:22, Michael Bauer a écrit :
> The files are all in order but is anyone else having problems with the
> page scrolling? I get so far down the page and then the edit box, rather
> than being visible, starts dropping off the bottom of the screen. I
> scroll down, commit and boom, it's back down at the bottom off the
> screen. Very annoying. The only workaround I've found is to translate
> till I hit the bottom of the screen, then reload the page which removes
> the translated strings from the UI.

Strange behavior, I just checked and can't reproduce, it's just as
usual. I'm using Firefox and Ubuntu, what is your browser?

Cheers
Sophie

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle upgrade and migration finished

[Michael Bauer]

The files are all in order but is anyone else having problems with the 
page scrolling? I get so far down the page and then the edit box, rather 
than being visible, starts dropping off the bottom of the screen. I 
scroll down, commit and boom, it's back down at the bottom off the 
screen. Very annoying. The only workaround I've found is to translate 
till I hit the bottom of the screen, then reload the page which removes 
the translated strings from the UI.


Michael


On 21 December 2016 at 22:52, Sophie  wrote:


Hi all,

The upgrade to the new Pootle version and the migration is over. Really
sorry for the inconvenience, but it's a very big database we have there.

Please check that all is in order for you, I've visited all the
interface but I may have miss something. I'll document the new features
on the wiki next week.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localizing the "Notebookbar"

[Michael Bauer]

Well, LO allows user choice here, so I don't think it will invoke the 
same feelings - I know some people like it but I just find it hugely 
frustrating to work with personally. But that's going off topic.


Over and out

Michael

Sgrìobh Sophie na leanas 21/12/2016 aig 13:25:

I'm just going to call it "ribbon" in Gaelic, not sure why LO had to go
with a new word here anyway, everyone hates it as "the ribbon";)
lol, I'm sure you don't want your users to hate LibreOffice;-)  


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localizing the "Notebookbar"

[Michael Bauer]

I'm just going to call it "ribbon" in Gaelic, not sure why LO had to go 
with a new word here anyway, everyone hates it as "the ribbon" ;)


Interestingly, originally it seems to have been called "non-tabbed 
toolbar", dunno if that creates issues with those translations that 
called it "tabbed/with tabs something"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_(computing)

Michael

Sgrìobh Mihkel Tõnnov na leanas 21/12/2016 aig 10:41:

Hi,

I'm considering (and will most likely go for) the equivalent of "hybrid
(tool)bar" in Estonian translation.
Nowadays, "hübriid-" has positive connotations and sounds progressive (at
least in Estonian), so maybe similar translation could work for some other
language as well.

Br, Mihkel

2016-12-21 12:13 GMT+02:00 Martin Srebotnjak :


Hi,

we are now thinking about naming it "Zloženka", a term for something
constructed/combined/layered together from different parts (a compound) ...

Lp, m.

14. dec. 2016 1.04 AM je oseba "Mikhail Balabanov" 
napisala:


Hello,
In Bulgarian, I translated it as ‘Лента с раздели’, which is literally
‘bar with tabs’ (vrstica z zavihki?).

On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 1:14 AM Martin Srebotnjak 
wrote:


Hi,

how have you localized the new "Notebookbar" in 5.3?

I see some teams have not localized it word by word (like German
"Symbolband"); are there any other translations like that?

I am searching for something with different wording, because in

Slovenian

connecting it to a notebook really sounds awfully.

Thanks, m.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Error special characters

[Michael Bauer]

I've added upper and lowe-case g̃, it should now appear in the 
translation UI but let me know if it's not showing up


Michael

Sgrìobh Giovanni Caligaris na leanas 25/11/2016 aig 12:57:

Hello

I managed to get all the special character I needed for the l10n-gug team.
I am having one issue trying to get "g̃" (also in uppercase) to work. I
think that's a unicode issue.

When they were translating Firefox to Guarani in Pootle, they had that same
issue and they had to ask Mozilla to solve that letter issue.

Can it be done the same for the LO Poolte?

-Gio


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] How to Edit "Language Instructions" on Pootle

[Michael Bauer]

I've set it to "..." for now, I have to put something in apparently

Michael

Sgrìobh Kevin Suo na leanas 22/11/2016 aig 10:53:

Just set the text to blank for now, thanks.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] How to Edit "Language Instructions" on Pootle

[Michael Bauer]

Ken

If you send me the new text, I should be able to update that for you.

Michael

Sgrìobh 锁琨珑 na leanas 22/11/2016 aig 02:31:
I have asked this several times before but I did not get any response, 
so I am asking again: How to edit the "Language Instructions" on 
pootle (as shown on the right-side of 
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/zh_CN/ )?


I have to revised it because the language instructions on this link is 
outdated and misleading.


Thanks and best regards.

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LibreOffice L10n zh_CN team


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle proposes old incorrect translations

[Michael Bauer]

It's a problem with the offline TM (in Virtaal too), there's no way of 
editing the TM, not even just deleting stuff, which reduces the 
usefulness of the program the longer you use it. I think mainly they're 
(the Pootle/Virtaal people) under-resourced, they know this is a 
problem. Perhaps if there was someone to volunteer to improve that aspect?


Michael

Sgrìobh Osoitz E na leanas 20/11/2016 aig 09:29:

I have been told that this is because of the way translation memories work
in Pootle, so I understand that this is not something easy to fix in the
short term.

Osoitz



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Menu item wording

[Michael Bauer]

It may be less error prone on Linux but on Windows, at one point I just 
stopped using LO for creating documents because between my German 
keyboard, the Gaelic OS (which is really en-US with a partial langpack) 
and 3 installed keyboard layouts, it was setting the text language any 
which way. Including random ones. I once got Icelandic :/


Michael

Sgrìobh Yury Tarasievich na leanas 16/11/2016 aig 13:36:
Does keyboard layout actually affect the (new) text paragraphs 
language setting?
On my Linux system I have three keyboard layouts set up and no check 
in the 'Ignore...' box and LO sets the text language just as it's set 
in the config. 



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[libreoffice-l10n] Menu item wording

[Michael Bauer]

Hi folks

Ok so it seems that one of my long-standing bugbears has actually been 
fixed - the one where LO keeps changing the language of the text 
regardless of the default document language or what you just set the 
page/paragraph to :D


I'm pondering filing another bug though for two reasons but I was 
wondering what you thought.
1) The wording. "Ignore system input language" makes sense to a dev no 
doubt but I really don't think our target users would get that. Giving 
there are oodles of space in that window, I think this could be expanded 
a little, for example to "Ignore system input language (prevents your 
keyboard settings from affecting the language settings of text)"
2) Should this not be selected by default, rather than having to tick 
it? The user cases that spring to mind are mainly two:
a) Monolingual user using LO in the same languages as their hardware 
keyboard, their OS and LO UI language. Why would they need the input 
language to control the text language?
b) Multilingual user with a more complex mix of hardware, OS and LO 
language. Why would they want LO to drive them insane by default? If a 
French/English bilingual on a French hardware setup writes in English , 
then why would they want the fact that their keyboard is French to 
override their selection for the text?


It's great of course to have this to switch off/on but I could probably 
be tweaked. I also admit to not having such a French/English setup (mine 
is a lot more complicated) so I'm not sure how that actually pans out.


Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] localization of ui in traditional mongolian

[Michael Bauer]

Oh... I didn't know that. Just learnt something, thanks Sophie!

Michael

Sgrìobh Sophie na leanas 28/10/2016 aig 16:34:

That's why I sent the link, you can follow/post from Nabble and don't
have to subscribe to yet another list:)
Cheers
Sophie



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] localization of ui in traditional mongolian

[Michael Bauer]

Thanks Sophie - I'm not on that list though I'm afraid, I'm on too many 
as is :D But they seem to be getting there too.


Michael

Sgrìobh Sophie na leanas 28/10/2016 aig 16:10:

The discussion is on-going on the dev list, see:
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/localization-of-ui-td4198350.html

Cheers
Sophie



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] localization of ui in traditional mongolian

[Michael Bauer]

Sgrìobh jonathon na leanas 28/10/2016 aig 15:57:

Mea culpa.
I've been playing with Arabic for the last week.

No worries


What font will be used?

Pass

More significantly, when did LibO change its display engine to correct
display that writing system?
Looking at the buglist I pulled of Bugzilla (see my post from yesterday 
or search Bugzilla for 'Mongolian'), it hasn't. I think what *may* be 
working is the horizontal display of text content but it's in effect 
displaying the text turned at 90°. And I think that's the reason his 
build isn't working cause even if the translation is in the right script 
etc in the po files, I'm sure that during building that just gets 
jumbled somehow.


Waiting for him to respond we are, I think.

Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] localization of ui in traditional mongolian

[Michael Bauer]

It's not Arabic, it's a variant of Old Uyghur. And I'm pretty sure 
that's the one he means, the top-to-bottom one.


Michael

Sgrìobh jonathon na leanas 27/10/2016 aig 18:23:

Traditional Mongolian, as in the modified Arabic that is written vertically?

Or do you mean the modified Arabic that is written horizontally, right
to left?

Or do you mean the Cyrillic writing system, when used for writing Mongolian?

jonathon



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] localization of ui in traditional mongolian

[Michael Bauer]

I think the problem is something entirely different. Traditional 
Mongolian requires a top-to bottom layout of the UI (a bit like 
classical Chinese which was top-to-bottom and right-to-left) and the UI 
is not equipped to do that. In effect, you'd have to have the toolbar at 
the left hand edge of the screen with the menus coming out to the right, 
a bit like this


F N O
i  e  p
l  w e
e n

See http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Test/Mongolian.html for some samples.

There are several bugs filed regarding traditional Mongolian script
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=mongolian

in particular this one seems relevant
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61846_from=fdo
but it doesn't seem to show much progress

Michael

Sgrìobh Sophie na leanas 27/10/2016 aig 15:59:

Le 27/10/2016 à 09:43, baigali a écrit :

>I'm now working on libreoffice user interface localization in
>traditional Mongolian, and I followed this wiki
>https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice_Localization_Guide/Adding_a_New_Language_or_Locale
>
>

built libreoffice with traditional Mongolian resource  ,but on windows10
,traditional Mongolian translation of ui is empty ,on windows7 is
tofo.Can someone tell me where is the problem?



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[libreoffice-l10n] Translation site unavailable?

[Michael Bauer]

I've been unable to get to the translation site since last night, did I 
miss an announcement about downtime?


Michael
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: LibreOffice master – Help project for Lithuanian

[Michael Bauer]

I think Christian is the only one who can do that kind of thing since 
the admin panel lost the capacity for updating projects against 
templates by just ticking and clicking (which allowed low-tech admins 
like myself to do this kind of thing).


Sorry I can't help :(

Michael

Sgrìobh Modestas Rimkus na leanas 27/06/2016 aig 19:19:

Anyone?

2016-06-22 15:11 GMT+03:00 Modestas Rimkus :


Hi,

could someone please add "LibreOffice master – Help" project for
Lithuanian language in Pootle? Thanks!

Regards,
Modestas




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: No-break space between number and percent sign done for locales listed in CLDR

[Michael Bauer]

gd should have that too

Michael

Sgrìobh Martin Srebotnjak na leanas 14/06/2016 aig 12:36:

Hi,

please add a non-breaking space between number and percent sign for
Slovenian (sl), too.

Thanks, m.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: LibreOffice Online translation

[Michael Bauer]

If there are that many ways of integrating LO Online though, I think LO 
Online needs its own UI locale selection system. ownCloud happens to 
have such a thing but I would imagine that many don't (I vaguely recall 
someone posting to the list a year ago or so about some online 
integration like this which only offered 4 or 5 locales). Otherwise LO 
users will end up with a very inconsistent user experience where you get 
different locales on offer (or not) depending on so many random factors, 
most of which the end user has no control over. And that's bad for our 
users and ultimately the product.


I think we should file a bug. Thoughts?

Michael

Sgrìobh Andras Timar na leanas 31/05/2016 aig 11:41:


Yes, log in to ownCloud, and at owncloud/index.php/settings/personal 
there is the language selector dropdown. But ownCloud is just one 
example. There are unlimitied possibilities to integrate LibreOffice 
Online with any web application. Think about LibreOffice Online as a 
component, not as a standalone application. It is up to the 
integrator, how to use localizations of LibreOffice Online. It is not 
restricted by any means at LibreOffice Online's side in theory.


Best regards,
Andras


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: LibreOffice Online translation

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Andras,

I don't have the skills (I wish I did) of doing that but thanks for 
explaining how the process works. Which raises the question though of 
how ownCloud selects the languages it offers. Is there a list somewhere?


Michael

Sgrìobh Andras Timar na leanas 28/05/2016 aig 22:07:
Have you tried LO Online? Of course you can build and install it 
yourself, but probably it is easier to try the CODE VM 
(https://www.collaboraoffice.com/code/). In CODE VM LO Online is 
integrated with ownCloud. ownCloud provides the cloud storage backend 
for LO Online, in this case. So, with my patch, it will be possible to 
use the language that the user set in ownCloud. I think it makes a lot 
of sense. In this case, language selection is in ownCloud settings. 
Loading the LO Online iframe with the lang parameter gives the chance 
to integrators to change the UI language. Note: it does not work in 
CODE VM at the moment, it will get this update later.


Naturally, localized LO Online is only possible, if the strings are 
translated. Incomplete translations will result in mixed 
English/localized UI, just like in desktop LO.


Best regards,
Andras


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: LibreOffice Online translation

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Andras

That's good news though I don't quite see how the lang parameter 
translates into a manual selection option but maybe there's some other 
black magic connected to that which I'm not aware of :)


I don't think it's a massive problem if it defaults to English - though 
again I don't actually see how that would happen? I mean, surely the 
interface would only offer LO Online in locales which actually have 
translations?


Michael

Sgrìobh Andras Timar na leanas 28/05/2016 aig 10:41:

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 1:42 AM, Michael Bauer<f...@akerbeltz.org>  wrote:


>Why can LO Online not deal with locales which are not in the
>browser-accept locales? It cannot possibly be in the realm of the
>impossible to implement a locale selection feature.
>

No, it's not impossible. In fact I've just implemented it.
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/online/commit/?id=62abb2533dab121156c8a5eef9db6d27e25cde65
It adds an optional 'lang' parameter, and if it is present, then it will
take precedence. It it's missing, the Accept-Language header will be used,
which is sent by the browser. The problem with this approach, that if user
asks for a localization in the 'lang' parameter, that is not present, then
the UI will fall back to English, and not to the next preferred language in
the Accept-Language header. (Or maybe not. I did not try.)





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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: LibreOffice Online translation

[Michael Bauer]

Congratulations on the most absurd set of numbers ever to justify a 
bonkers approach. I bet some dev at the Pentagon made a similar brief 
for retaining 8" floppies in the nuclear launch program last year.


There isn't enough material in Primitive Irish to write a shopping list, 
never mind a website. It's mostly names of people so that's not a use 
case, it's a joke. Especially when you consider that, for example, this 
system leaves Yoruba (65 million *living* speakers capable of writing 
more than X ERECTED THIS STONE) or Kurdish (est. 15 million speakers) 
royally buggered...


In the words of Victor Meldrew "I don't believe it" - we're sitting here 
in 2016 debating an version of LibreOffice, with its long history of 
l10n, which is seemingly incapable of enabling users to access the 
software in their chosen language... I expect this kind of thing from 
Apple or Google, not TDF...


Michael

Sgrìobh toki na leanas 27/05/2016 aig 09:16:

On 25/05/2016 23:42, Michael Bauer wrote:


but there is no such thing as "Scottish Gaelic (gd) - Ireland (ie)". Scottish 
Gaelic is not an Irish locale.

Whilst one has to go back in time, there is a use case for gd-IE that
that fails when one uses ga-IE as a workaround. One does have to go
further back in time, for pgl-ie-212 to be the required setting.
(Gaeilge Ársa in Ireland using the Ogham writing system.)

This is where the UI designer has to decide what percentage of the user
base can be pissed off, because the UI doesn't support their specific
use-case. Do you aim at a minimal 1,000,000 combinations (^1), or the
basic core of 275 million combinations (^2), or go to the full
1,188,137,600,000 theoretically possible combinations (^3).

^1:  Minimal setup: 1,000 languages, 100 countries, 10 writing systems,
no modifier.

^2: Basic Core: 2,500 languages, 110 countries, 100 writing systems, 10
modifiers.

^3: Full: 17,576 languages, 676 countries, 1,000 writing systems, 100
modifiers

jonathon



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[libreoffice-l10n] hyphen breaking behaviour

[Michael Bauer]

How we've managed to fix the smart quote issue for our locale (many 
thanks to Mikhel and Eike!) I've got another headache I would like to 
tackle. I've asked Eike but he's not entirely sure and suggested I ask 
the list.


The problem is this: Gaelic restricts the breaking of hyphens across 
lines if there are less than two letters before the hyphen. In effect, 
this affects a finite number of prefixes, mostly:

n-WORD (e.g. ar n-aran)
t-WORD (e.g. an t-aran)
h-WORD (e.g. na h-aran)
an-WORD (e.g. seall an-seo)
eu-WORD
mì-WORD
dì-WORD
(and a few more, I can, if necessary supply a full list).

At the moment, at the end of a line a word like an-seo just gets broken 
into an-
seo. The only known fix is that once you're done writing, you do a 
global replace of  to  (i.e. a NON-BREAKING HYPHEN) etc.


Is there something one could exploit to force specific instance of 
HYPHEN to the  NON-BREAKING HYPHEN? The main problem I can see would be 
that if one cannot distinguish between single t and t word finally, 
something like cat-ghrìosaich might also end up with a non-breaking hyphen.


Eike suggested the following:


Maybe some rule for AutoCorrection could match this, but I'm not very
familiar with. However, the en-GB lists are under
extras/source/autocorr/lang/en-GB/ in the source tree, likely such rules
similar to the ones in
extras/source/autocorr/lang/en-GB/DocumentList.xml would go into
extras/source/autocorr/lang/gd-GB/DocumentList.xml and using something
like

   

where the second "‑" is a U+2011 NON-BREAKING HYPHEN.

The ".*" seems to indicate "any sequence of non-word-boundary characters
including none", so also "n-" without a following WORD would be matched.
Apparently there is no support for ".+" or other regular expressions.


Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Adding items to Autocorrection file

[Michael Bauer]

Ok, grand, many thanks!

Michael

Sgrìobh Mihkel Tõnnov na leanas 16/05/2016 aig 14:59:

I contacted him directly with a patch prepared and asked if he could commit
it (which he did).

Br, Mihkel


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Adding items to Autocorrection file

[Michael Bauer]

Ahhh you're a star :) What's the best way of doing that, do I file a 
normal bug or do I need to contact Eike directly?


Michael

Sgrìobh Mihkel Tõnnov na leanas 15/05/2016 aig 15:21:

Hi Michael,

Not sure if you have already figured this out, but if not, then here's 
a pointer: 
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=51fc602184ab8d1afbfb183a3d25b1122c8b1e29


Best regards,
Mihkel


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] English Dictionaries Project - Introduction by Marco Pinto

[Michael Bauer]

Sgrìobh toki na leanas 04/05/2016 aig 21:43:



On 03/05/2016 19:14, Kruno wrote:

And there is now way any language smaller then English build 
something like outside some institute or outside funded

  project of some sort.

Please either rephrase that sentence, or write it in your native 
language.


It's not that hard to understand. What he said is that unless you happen 
to be lucky and have an institute or some funding mechanism, as a small 
language you often don't have the means to go and do the really fancy 
stuff that would be really nice to have. English has a massive amount of 
research and resources to throw at its linguistic problems. A language 
like Scottish Gaelic mostly works on the back of dedicated volunteers 
(or just a volunteer in some cases) donating time and/or expertise.



For small languages even having a spell checker is huge. There's quite a


When working with evidential grammars, or noun class grammars, spell 
checking fall apart, because the entire word is rewritten according to 
the evidential particle, or noun class.


That's a strange and rather defeatist argument. Whatever those are 
(really never heard of evidential grammars, I'm guessing with noun class 
grammars you mean languages like Bantu) I have yet to come across a 
language for which spellchecking is practically or theoretically 
impossible. Ideographic scripts like Chinese perhaps where you need to 
take longer chunks or semantics into account to account for 水 vs 氷 being 
in the wrong place but there are few systems like that. Sure, coverage 
is an issue in morphologically complex languages but it's by no means 
impossible. Basque has a dozen or so cases and a myriad of suffixes 
which can be combined in lots of different ways but oddly enough, 
spellchecking is possible. You just have to be clever about how you go 
about creating them.


No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] English Dictionaries Project - Introduction by Marco Pinto

[Michael Bauer]

Totally disagree from experience. Of course, both is better but you try 
working in a language with not even a spellchecker and then get someone 
to count the errors. Even mediocre spellcheck coverage kills a good % of 
typos. I just have to take a random Gaelic page off the BBC and dump it 
in LO and count the hits.


Michael

Sgrìobh toki na leanas 03/05/2016 aig 19:35:
This goes back to my claim that spell checking without built-in 
grammar checking is useless. 



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] English Dictionaries Project - Introduction by Marco Pinto

[Michael Bauer]

There are many things about Hunspell that make me shake my head in 
disbelief ;) All the more so given how widely used it is. Like the lack 
of documentation to the outside world. I mean, like a user friendly 
"Here is how you make a spellchecker for your language" and "All about 
affixes" page. But their github space aside, there doesn't seem to be 
much. Not at a casual websearch anyway.


The old FOSS caltrop? Great idea, machinery and people, shaky end-user 
strategy?


M

Sgrìobh Kruno na leanas 03/05/2016 aig 17:26:

I see... (and we shall see).

It's always seemed logical to me for Hunspell project to host 
'official' dictionaries. Since it's lacking this feature -- here is a 
chance for LO to play this card right.


No doubt, it could become huge.

Thanks for clarifications,
Kruno 



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] English Dictionaries Project - Introduction by Marco Pinto

[Michael Bauer]

Sgrìobh Kruno na leanas 03/05/2016 aig 16:51:


will not and can not be resolved.

Who's dictionary to include to that single repository, how to merge 
them, how to resolve different concepts (what to include, what to 
exclude), how to merge affix files with different affix classes (that 
will be a mess). Why you think that included dictionary is 'standard' 
and is better then the other one? How to introduce those guys not 
knowing each other? The other guy will give up his work? Who will hunt 
all those 'other' guys telling them 'Yo, dude, leave that, do this shit!'


How will such a repository resolve competition between two English 
dictionaries?
I think this is less of a problem that it might seem at first glance. To 
begin with, there are not that many dictionaries which have active 
competing teams. Even en-GB (where you might expect a flurry of 
competition) only has a single maintainer.


First I think you gather in all those projects willing to participate, 
then you rescue the dead ones and then you try and work out arrangements 
with competing dictionaries. I don't see a reason which such a resource 
could not host multiple dictionaries for the same locale, even if it 
somehow selects one for default inclusion. Many locales have pre and 
post spelling reform variants anyway so you have to allow for multiples 
anyway so if you had 3 competing en-US dictionaries, you just label them 
differently if the differences cannot be reconciled.





My point: it should be repository for maintaining hunspell's 
dictionaries and building extensions for other project - that's fine, 
but don't expect it to be lively as Pootle and translations - it's 
just not gonna happen, that's not realistic.
It won't and that's a good thing, here too many cooks will certainly 
spoil the broth


Did I get it all wrong?

Hit me hard,
No, I think I had thoughts similar to your going through my head but I 
think the concept still has legs if we pull together.


Michael


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] English Dictionaries Project - Introduction by Marco Pinto

[Michael Bauer]

Appreciate your good work Marco, many thanks!

Michael

Sgrìobh Marco A.G.Pinto na leanas 01/05/2016 aig 15:25:

My forked en_GB is the best British dictionary around and I have even
bought a Gold Account in Oxford Dictionaries in order to test the words
so that I may add them if needed. I first paste texts into Thunderbird
and, if it appears as typos, I check them in Oxford and add them if they
are valid words. Since the en_GB that came with AOO was obfuscated, I
grabbed the one from Mozilla around three years ago.

I do monthly releases of en_GB.

This is what I have been doing for nearly three years.



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] [PROPOSAL] New project for dictionaries

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Dennis,

Sgrìobh Dennis Roczek na leanas 28/04/2016 aig 00:30:

I have no clear understanding which languages uses which kind of system
and scripts. But as far as I know: many who uses scripts to get the
extensions packed, simply use homegrown / self-made scripts in any
language or simply pack the extension manually.
Yes, we use a homegrown script because it has to parcel a very specific 
file which gets exported from the dictionary database

Do try to get the system running, provide a system (hosted / maintained
by TDF) and everybody would use the same system to create new
dictionaries - it will become superior after time. Additional systems
(e.g. Mozilla based products for the easiest example) can be added later
There will always be special cases and if the new centralised system is 
to draw in as many as possible, it must allow committing of ready 
dic/aff/xpi etc files by people who create their Hunspell stuff in other 
ways. There's no way I would ever start maintaining our files on another 
platform manually and I would imagine that not many people who have a 
dynamic setup like ours would either. We have grown the dic this way 
from 500k to 1.5m words this way in 4 years, that would simply not be 
feasible in another way (for us).

The point about the affix file: I imagined the system more on a much
lower base: Joe Average is computer affine and realized that the system
is based on volunteer work and sends his "customs"/unknown words to the
maintainer (either e.g. a web page, directly integrated within
libreoffice or whatever) and the maintainer (similar to the Language
Administrator in Pootle) decides if it goes in the dictionary or not.
That might work quite well for a very mature dictionary file or new 
locales where there is no existing data that one can draw on.

Moreover: that kind of system won't include that much resources (neither
human resource nor server source) to maintain. OTOH we might have
Hah. Nothing that involves spelling is ever easy :) Even if just because 
many languages have competing orthographies.


Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LibreOffice on the cloud - Open365

[Michael Bauer]

Well, the answer to both in a sense is "in circumstance which at the 
moment force you on to Google Docs or Office 365". While I agree that 
the cloud is over-hyped, it has it's uses. And as always, regular 
backups are the thing, because whether the cloud or your local system, 
stuff *will* get fried at the most inconvenient moment.


So yes, I'd love LO in an online form ... if the localizations come with it.

Michael

Sgrìobh anne-ology na leanas 24/04/2016 aig 20:13:

silly is as silly does;

   although now I have some questions:

  (1) when would one use LO on-line?
  (2) if one places everything on-line, then when these satellites
falter - or fail - how would one retrieve their data?

  to me, this 'only being on-line' thinking leaves me with the same
thought as when these skyscrapers - continually being built even taller -
are situated in the midst of concreted land ... what will they do if the
electricity should go off for whatever reason? - the elevators won't
operate, their 'phones won't operate, they don't have a pantry of food
staples, ... ... ... ???


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] LibreOffice on the cloud - Open365

[Michael Bauer]

Hm though it seems to be English only.

Michael

Sgrìobh Giovanni Caligaris na leanas 21/04/2016 aig 23:15:

Has anyone seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xqn14OtcuQ

Looks pretty cool, it has all the LO features.

https://open365.io/

-Gio



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] 4.3 and 4.4 projects removal from Pootle

[Michael Bauer]

gd can be taken off, focussing only on the latest

M

Sgrìobh Sophie na leanas 18/04/2016 aig 16:56:

Hi all,

To help Christian doing this once instead of a per language basis, who
is willing to have 4.4 and 4.3 projects removed from Pootle? Please, add
your language in this thread:
-

Thanks in advance!
Cheers
Sophie


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[libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: [The Document Foundation - Pootle server] Translating Kurdish Messages

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Erdal,

In addition, which form of Kurdish? Sorani (in Arabic script) or 
Kurmanji (in Latin script) or another variant altogether?


We currently seem to have Kurmanji 
(https://translations.documentfoundation.org/kmr-Latn/ which seems 
rather quiet) and a duplicate (by the looks of it) under 
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/ku/ which just has a 
partially translated terminology file in Latin script. Note to admins: 
we should really merge those or reduce them to one locale somehow.


Michael


Hi,
I would llike to translate the English Messages into Kurdish. I am not
able to translate the messages, because I need special translator
rights, which I don't have. I have contacted the Erdal Ronahi ( an
active user), but he didn' send me a response to get the right to
translate.

I hope you can help me.

Thanks in Advance
Best regards



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[libreoffice-l10n] Plural formatting issue

[Michael Bauer]

I filed a bug about missing plural formatting in a few of the new 
strings but it seems to have dropped below the radar?

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99170

Would be good if someone could have a look.

Michael


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Language Support, Spelling Check, Grammar Check, Proofreading, Autocorrect.

[Michael Bauer]

Small addendum, I thought I'd filed one - I did but the guy trolling the 
other bug closed it as resolved even though it isn't so I re-opened it


https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86752

M

Sgrìobh Michael Bauer na leanas 29/02/2016 aig 10:59:
Plus, since were on the topic, I'll mention the other infuriating 
habit of LO (and other word processors) which is to actively pull the 
text locale from the users keyboard. It's driving me and anyone else 
using keyboard A for language B nuts. 



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Language Support, Spelling Check, Grammar Check, Proofreading, Autocorrect.

[Michael Bauer]

Ok, starting with spellchecking (if there is none for your language) 
you'd have to look into building a Hunspell extension 
https://hunspell.github.io/


At the most primitive level, it's just a wordlist of correctly spelled 
words at its heart but good spellcheckers get a bit more complex than that.


What language are you missing proofing tools for?

Michael

Sgrìobh Andyan G. Raharja na leanas 29/02/2016 aig 10:54:

Sorry,
What i mean is, i want to know how to create Spelling and Grammar Check, in 
other language, not just English.
  let's say it is like Proofreader and autocorrect featurein Ms Office.

:))



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Language Support, Spelling Check, Grammar Check, Proofreading, Autocorrect.

[Michael Bauer]

Sgrìobh toki na leanas 29/02/2016 aig 10:36:

On 29/02/2016 09:34, Michael Bauer wrote:


As is, LibO is perilously close to the maximum number of languages

that can be supported, without undergoing a major UI redesign.
Ah ok I get it, you don't mean locales LO is technically able to provide 
but in terms of practical handling by the end user.


Broadly agree with all your points. I think the whole locale handling of 
LO needs hauled over from start to finish. I haven't even gotten as far 
on my list of annoyances as smart locale selection (which is what you 
seem to be driving at) - just the pure selection of a locale during 
installation is nuts (even got a bug on it but apart from attracting a 
troll, not much action 
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82184_from=fdo)


I think if we moved to a langpack approach, we could do a lot more smart 
stuff i.e. the installer pings the OS for the country and based on that, 
presents a likely list of locales but with a visible prompt to suggest 
there is a full list available. But not in the infuriating automated way 
it does this currently.




By way of example, most people don't realize that "Greek, Ancient" is
not "Koine Greek", and that LibO doesn't formally support "Koine Greek".
Whilst using "Greek, Ancient" usually works, both the spell checker and
grammar checker will do a number on one, when one is not paying close
attention.

Couldn't that be fixed by a better name?

* Ability to utilize neighbouring, almost supported languages.
By way of example, the minority languages of France. Configure LibO for
one of them, and almost all of the other minority languages are
automatically excluded. (I'll grant that Ethnologue is at least
partially to be blamed for that situation.)

On a slightly more practical/political level, not all of the
semi-official languages of South Africa, can be configured in a single
LibO setup. The same thing applies to India, and its semi-official
languages. (Those two countries rank as having the second largest and
largest number of official languages, and semi-official languages,
respectively, in the world.)
This is one I've not run into - what do you mean they can't be 
configured in a single LO setup? As in, I can't pick French, Breton and 
Basque in one run of the installer or at all?


Plus, since were on the topic, I'll mention the other infuriating habit 
of LO (and other word processors) which is to actively pull the text 
locale from the users keyboard. It's driving me and anyone else using 
keyboard A for language B nuts.


Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Language Support, Spelling Check, Grammar Check, Proofreading, Autocorrect.

[Michael Bauer]

That is quite worrying - in what sense do you mean that?

Michael

Sgrìobh toki na leanas 29/02/2016 aig 09:18:

As is, LibO is perilously close to the maximum number of languages that
can be supported, without undergoing a major UI redesign.

jonathon



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Language Support, Spelling Check, Grammar Check, Proofreading, Autocorrect.

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Andyan,

Sgrìobh Andyan G. Raharja na leanas 28/02/2016 aig 02:45:

Hello guys, watssup.

I was wondering if there is a way to create Language Support, other than 
English.

Is there
Not sure what you mean, the Help files or live support i.e. where people 
ask question?

I am not programmer, i have no idea how to build such magic feature like that.
I am able to become language-content contributor, but not developing debuging, 
and tracking any program. :

Well, you might be able to help with translation

And maybe LibreOffice can initiate to create spelling and grammar check, for 
every single language. So it will save many lifes, for not depending  their 
activity on paid office software (If they paid, haha) :))
It's kind of up to each locale in question to handle that, mostly 
spelling and grammar checks for LO are developed outside LO but offered 
in LO i.e. the spellcheckers for example are Hunspell extensions.

Spelling and grammar check in every language, makes life easier. :
True but with 6000 languages on the planet, LO can't be the one which 
has to do them all.


Did you have any particular language in mind?

Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] permission to edit in pootle

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Noel,

I've given you permissions straight away since Afrikaans is a long way 
behind.


Happy translating!

Michael

Sgrìobh Noel Grandin na leanas 22/02/2016 aig 12:09:

Hi

I'm looking for permission to edit the Afrikaans translations in pootle.

Username on pootle is grandinj.

Thanks, Noel Grandin



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle rights request [Cy- Cymraeg (Welsh)]

[Michael Bauer]

I need to find out if that's actually possible within Pootle.

M

Sgrìobh Cymrodor na leanas 09/02/2016 aig 22:37:

Diolch for taking a look, Michael.

I'm also unable to remove my own suggestions. I can see the "remove 
suggestion" button, but it doesn't do anything. It would be handy if I 
could as I sometimes spot mistakes of my own and it seems a little 
counter-intuitive that the system makes me leave them there for 
someone else to have to check and remove.


Aled 


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle rights request [Cy- Cymraeg (Welsh)]

[Michael Bauer]

Ok grand

Cheers

Michael

Sgrìobh Aled Powell na leanas 08/02/2016 aig 12:25:
Diolch Michael. The ability to suggest changes is all I ask as I 
understand the value of having things checked by a second person.


Aled


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Pootle rights request [Cy- Cymraeg (Welsh)]

[Michael Bauer]

Not sure what option that comes bundled with to be honest. Nothing 
obvious in the admin panel.


Michael

Sgrìobh Cymrodor na leanas 08/02/2016 aig 18:35:
Actually, Rhos, it would be useful if I had access to the comment 
button as well.


Diolch.

Aled 


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Hello

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Juan,

Found your account; the Spanish locale does need some TLC, so I've given 
you some rights for translation and editing.


Happy translating!

Michael

Sgrìobh Juan C. Sanz na leanas 31/01/2016 aig 12:30:

Hello.
I was collaborating with LO some time ago, mainly translating doc into 
Spanish and in pootle translations (user name jucasaca).
Now I've seen that is necessary some translation in pootle, so I've 
decided to collaborate again, but now I don't have the edit grants 
that I use to have,  I can only suggest and not edit directly. 
Considering that pootle is not too active in Spanish I'd like  edit 
directly and see how my work makes progress.

I've ask for the grants in the Spanish lists but nobody answers.
Can somebody in this list give me the privileges to edit in the 
Spanish translations?

Regards
Juan C. Sanz


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] A question about the amount of translation strings

[Michael Bauer]

Did you upload folders to the wrong place by any chance? I think you 
need to be working on UI-master for now, not UI-5.0


Michael

Sgrìobh Berend Ytsma na leanas 29/01/2016 aig 15:32:

Hello,

I just was wondering why the Frisian language in Libreoffice 5.0 - UI 
has only
7589 strings to be translated and most other languages have more than 
99000.

What is the reason for that???


Greetings

Berend Ytsma
Frisian Translator 


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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: Angika / Garhwali / Bavarian

[Michael Bauer]

Hi everyone,

To make things easier for Christian (hopefully) I have set up

Garhwali (gbm)
Angika (anp)
Bavarian (bar)

on Pootle as far as I can but the last step is something Christian has 
to do. Shouldn't take too long.


Happy translating

Michael


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: Angika / Garhwali / Bavarian

[Michael Bauer]

Done :)

Are these also you, Yacine? If so, I can take them off if they're failed 
attempts at creating an account.


2Yacine-Bouklifyacine2953...
3YacineBouklifyacine2953...

Michael

Sgrìobh Sophie na leanas 19/01/2016 aig 14:40:

Could you also add Yacine to Kabyle, he is now subscribed to the list
and to Pootle, he said "my user is "Yacine_Bouklif" and and I have used
the following email address (yacine_tizi2...@yahoo.fr)".

Thanks a lot in advance
Cheers
Sophie



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Want to contribute for Angika Language (anp)

[Michael Bauer]

Christian, one for you, since you're the only one with access currently.

Michael

Sgrìobh Sangeeta Kumari na leanas 17/01/2016 aig 17:16:

Hi

I attended today LibreOffice India meetup in Delhi.


Angika is a language of India, a language unfortunately came in the list of 
UNESCO language atlas of endangered languages. It would be honour for me to 
contribute for the language Angika and for LibreOffice.


Could you please enable the language Angika (anp) on LibreOffice to translate? 
My user is 'sangeeta' and I have used the same emailID used here.

Regards,
Sangeeta

sangeetakumari.com



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Indonesia Translation

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Andy,

There is a project and there is an admin (sending bcc to dirgita). But 
the locale seems to have been very quiet so we could certainly give you 
the right to translate to begin with. If you're interested in 
translating, let me know what your account name is on the LO Pootle?


Michael

Sgrìobh Andyan G. Raharja na leanas 18/01/2016 aig 11:26:

Hello Guys.
I am new here, call me Andy.

I want to know if there is indonesian translation project here. Any coordinator?
i saw on libreoffice web, there is one person who is charge. but i cant make a 
contact with him.

Thanks.



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Adding new locales

[Michael Bauer]

I'm sorry this is taking so long, it's somewhat embarrassing... but 
while I have the rights to set up new locales, that's dependent on the 
system working, I can't fix problems like the one we're having.


Anyone else have a status update on this?

Michael

Sgrìobh Berend Ytsma na leanas 04/01/2016 aig 15:22:

Hello,

Any chance that Frisian get's translatable, now that the new year has 
began?

Would be nice that's translation could begin.

gr.

Berend Ytsma
Frisian Translator



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Default-Labels in Libre-Office (Writer)

[Michael Bauer]

You may be the first one to spot it missing in gtk. I must admit I've 
never noticed the discrepancy. I'd try filing a query on gnome.


Michael

Sgrìobh Martin Schneeweis na leanas 31/12/2015 aig 16:52:

Hi Michael,

thank you for the answer - may be I should clarify that I did not post
on this list because I wanted anybody to change something - I posted on
this list because I thought may be someone can help me understand the
whole text thingy a little better.

Yes, I know that the file dialogs are provided by the operating system,
but if I am not mistaken, some aspects of the dialog (window title,
field labels, ...) are parameterized by LO.

The missing "File type:" label on linux (gnome) may well be a gtk
error, in any case, this would be the wrong list (I just thought maybe
someone knows about that probleme (or if that is intentional) - it's a
missing text after all (I did not find any bug mentioning that missing
text)).

Thanks again and happy new year,
Martin




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Default-Labels in Libre-Office (Writer)

[Michael Bauer]

Hi Martin,

In general I agree with the need for clarity in the UI but I think on 
this occasion, I don't think this is a LO issue. Once past File > Save 
(As), I think the UI passes to the operating system. I opened mine (Win 
10) and spotted a truncation in the "Save a file of this type" string so 
I figured I'd fix it but it's not part of LibreOffice at all but Windows 10.


So I suspect to fix this, you'd have to look at getting the Linux UI 
tweaked.


But better wait for someone else to chip in, this is just a suspicion, I 
might have missed something.


Michael

Sgrìobh Martin Schneeweis na leanas 31/12/2015 aig 15:59:

Hi,

today I read an interesting article (1) about very specific problems of
school children (project Reglue - Ken Starks).

Ken Starks suggested a little tweak in the "Save As" dialog and I
thought - well - that should be easy enough.

Please is there anyone who can answer the following questions:

1. US-english seems to be the "default translation" so in order to
change a label one has to download and edit the apropriate file from
http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/ (and convince the
community that this are important changes)

2. Does anybody know why the label "File type:" (in the Save-Dialog) is
only visible when the look'n feel is "gen" (=windows) or "kde4", but
invisible with "gtk" or "gtk3"?

I know, question (2) is a little bit technical but since the focus
point is exactly that label...


(1) http://fossforce.com/2015/12/getting-libreoffice-write-thing/



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Adding items to Autocorrection file

[Michael Bauer]

On the issue of autocorrection, I have a different question. I'm trying 
to alter the behaviour of smart single quotes in LO. In Gaelic, single 
quotes are almost never used as punctuation because their main function 
is as word characters e.g.

a' d' t' etc
and because this would land you with 'a'' when using single quotes, this 
is almost never done and people uses double quotes mostly "a'"


Problem arise when automatically turning these into smart quotes. Not 
the double, “” are always fine but turning ' > ’ creates problems 
because this is interpreted by LO (not just LO, most use the default 
"English" settings) as an opening single quote and turns this into a 
right curling quote ‘


Unfortunately, this single quote can occur at the beginning of words too 
e.g.

'gam 'gad 'ga
but when using formatted quotes, this must be a LEFT curling quote i.e.
’gam ’gad
but with the default behaviour, one ends up with
‘gam ‘gad

I guess this is a bit like the 'okina issue in Hawaiian, though I'm not 
sure if this has been fixed in LO.


Does anyone have any ideas how this could be fixed so
- the default smart quote conversion is always to left curling for gd-GB 
(unless the user manually inserts a right curling quote via the 
character chart or ALT+0145)
- this does not end up as a conflict between autocorrect and some system 
setting


Cheers

Michael


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[libreoffice-l10n] Adding new locales

[Michael Bauer]

Had a request for Frisian (fy) so I added UI_master and Website via the 
admin panel but nothing is showing. Is the system slow, buggy or did I 
forget to flick some switch? Did that yesterday so even if slow, would 
be expecting it to be done by now. Still not entirely at home with the 
new Pootle admin panel.


Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Help-files: Large-scale 'cosmetic' changes

[Michael Bauer]

Sgrìobh Rimas Kudelis na leanas 18/12/2015 aig 09:19:

This question keeps popping up, doesn't it...
Every time LO (or Mozilla or whoever) decides to go "From This Kind Of 
String" to "That kind of string" leading to a collective groan.

In my opinion, it's not a good idea.
I still think that while not a heal-all, separating out the source from 
en-US is a good idea. Admittedly it would require some folk to 
cross-check changes to en-US to see if those are linguistic/content 
fixes which need to be merged into the source but there are a LOT more 
en-US speakers/developers than in many of the other l10n teams, perhaps 
with the exception of German.


Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Need for a solid help content

[Michael Bauer]

Sgrìobh Sophie na leanas 16/12/2015 aig 08:56:
The help on the wiki is exactly the same as the built in help, it's 
just an export from what you find on Pootle. 

Seriously? Yikes...
As already said numerous times here, the aim is to have the ability to 
maintain the help in the wiki and still provide on line and off line 
help. Not everybody has a connection at low cost, not everybody is 
allowed to access the internet in his work, etc... For the moment, 
Olivier, Jay, Lera are working on simplifying the use of the help 
authoring extension, but it's until the remaining technical problems 
with the export to the wiki are solved. Cheers Sophie 
*to* the wiki? Shouldn't it be the other way round? I have seen in-built 
Help which was essentially a wiki export but never to date the other way 
round, at least not knowingly.


Michael


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] New language request

[Michael Bauer]

I see no reason to turn this down. LO should not be the arbiter over 
language vs dialect debates and we have never to date intervened saying 
"you must produce a standard first". Breton I'm sure was a come-first 
deal and nobody asked if it was Gwened, KLT, Peurunvan, Falc'huneg (L or 
Gw) or Etrerannyezhel.


And we have many locales which look "odd" to native speakers because the 
language is not commonly written yet, even less so in software UI. If we 
turn down Bavarian on that basis, we need to shut down virtually all 
native American and African language projects.


ISO bar sounds about right as you're suggesting a macrolanguage. What's 
your account name on LO Pootle?


Michael

Sgrìobh m...@boaric.eu na leanas 13/12/2015 aig 14:00:

Hi again,

I'm sorry to reply so late, work is demanding a lot before Christmas from me.
I agree that it is not very professional to have no Impressum on my page.
Sadly I don't have enough time right now to do it because of my work.
I will finish it as soon as I can though.

I wrote on the Bavarian Wikipedia page, but it got turned down because they 
don't seem to want to put any effort in creating a standard.
The way I see it is that we Bavarians have a chance to create a standard that 
actually fits our language, rather than taking what kinda (but not really) 
works and leave it at that because it doesn't require effort.
Reading Bavarian standard might be hard to do in the beginning, but so it is 
with every language you read for the first time.

I'm not alone, I have several people contributing with ideas and so far we 
discuss and decide what word should be written how.
Bavarian might be a collection of dialects and there is certainly no pleasing 
all of them, but the standard we create is pleasing most dialects most of the 
times.

As I said, due to work overflow I probably won't be able to contribute much 
this year, but after the holiday seasons are over I should have enough time 
once again. I know that as a one man team (with occasional helpers) I will be 
very slow, but I hope to achieve some sort of snowball effect by convincing 
more Bavarians that something is being done, which will draw in more people, 
which leads to the project being completed sooner.

In the end it's up to you to accept or not, but I really rather see a Bavarian 
standard created through active discussions and logic than one created by using 
standard German as template. I believe that there will be a Bavarian standard 
at some point and I just try my best to guide it in the right direction.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Need for a solid help content

[Michael Bauer]

Olivier,

What you wrote makes sense but seems to talk more about the online help 
rather than the inbuilt help. I can think of several commercial and OS 
tools off the top of my head which do not carry inbuilt help these days. 
Going to Help in Trados for example these days redirects you to the 
online Help whereas in the old days, there used to be inbuilt Help. 
Adobe also redirects to F1 user to online Help. MS Office only has 
vestiges of Help left ("Basic Help" in Word for example about using the 
Ribbon). Anything else you need to hit the Microsoft website for.


It may be that inbuilt Help was once the norm but I do not think it's 
going to be the norm for much longer and for obvious reasons 
(maintaining it seems to be a bit of a nightmare, in contrast to things 
like wikis).


Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that we need no form of 
documentation. It's just the inbuilt stuff which I personally feel is 
becoming more of a liability than a useful tool in LO. Perhaps 
other/most users *like* inbuilt Help, I don't know, I do not consider 
myself the arbiter of such things, which is why I said it would be nice 
if some research was done. But I get the feeling Help is shifting onto 
the web more and more and if that is the case and if there are good 
reasons, LO should contemplate this.


Michael

Sgrìobh Olivier Hallot na leanas 13/12/2015 aig 19:05:
There is a dimension where documentation get critical, and this is in 
the enterprise and in the development. A software that does not carry 
proper documentation is subject to several drawbacks. First, the help 
desk of the enterprise need to get trained into the issues of 
LibreOffice in the same way they need to addres MSOffice issues. For 
that they need to know how the software works to assist the users. 
Docs and references are crucial, together with proper professional 
support. Second, the help desk is often charged per call. Enterprises 
where user cannot find proper doc in their own language is facing a 
higher TCO, because users call HD to get what they don't have at hand. 
Third, in the way open source is developed and LibreOffice in 
particular, there are no specs written in the canonical form a priori 
before implementation (as it was in the OpenOffice.org times under 
SUN/Oracle) and this is a choice LibreOffice made to offload all 
hassle of development and rush into coding improvements long due. The 
trade-off is a bunch of nice features very few know how to work and 
the curious take much long time to figure it. Forth, by writing the 
help pages we have a minimum of a reference guide to address bugs and 
regressions. Without a reference, a regression is allway harder to 
understand for the developer and the QA guys. Think about shortcut 
ABC, that suddenty does not work anymore... how can the developer be 
sure the sortcut was inded supposed to do what ABC was designed 
originally So, users may not like the help content as we have 
today and don't like to press F1, but it is our pursuit of quality 
software to give them the best we can do in terms of documentation. 
Admitedly our help system is not a piece of literature easy to read 
(nor is MS Office too), but it must fullfill the mission to establish 
the landmark of the sofware behaviour. Yes, "RTFM" comes to my mind 
actually, but there must be an M somewhere. Finaly, other 
documentation tools like public forums, books, wikis and even Google 
are all stars of a documentation constellation but almost never figure 
in a help desk SLA. As more litterature we produce on LibreOffice, the 
best, because one of the steepest entry barrier we have to propagate 
LibreOffice is its lack of culture in the office suite marketplace, 
something MS already achieved long ago and is extremely hard to 
displace. Of course, there is room for improvement. The nice part of 
this is that it is well suited for the non-code-developer community of 
LibreOffice. Give Help a chance. Kind regards 



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Bavarian and Nipmuck - report

[Michael Bauer]

Sgrìobh toki na leanas 12/12/2015 aig 22:51:
That doesn't mean that work on spell checking and grammar checking 
should not be done. 

I didn't say that either.
It does mean that whoever creates the spell checker and grammar 
checker have a hardcopy (paper) copy of the printed dictionary and 
grammar checker of the language in question, and understands both what 
in the book is contentious, and why it is contentious.
Yes but these are skills different to those of a localizer. Not every 
localizer is a grammarian and vice verse and the same applies to the 
writing or even analysis of dictionaries.
How many people should be on a team is as dependent on cultural 
factors, as it is on practical factors. 

Agreed
The vice of a one-person team, is that there is nobody to hand off 
responsibility for the project off to, if the sole team member is no 
longer able to work on the project. 
Agreed. Or at least to the extent that if a single localizer fails to 
plan for the future once the project(s) have reached a degree of maturity.
The vice of multi-member teams, is death by paralysis. The inability 
to come to mutually acceptable solutions, when questions/problems 
arise. In the corporate world in Europe and North America, researchers 
have found that eight people on a team, is the most effective size, 
for a project to be successful
And my rough and ready analysis has told me you can expect about 1 
active localizer for each half million speakers or so. Like you seems to 
get an almost invariable proportion of lurkers to participants on 
forums, some ratio like that also seems to apply to l10n. Which means 8 
is an almost unachievable number for many languages. All the more reason 
to plan but also an argument for not just turning down folk because they 
haven't got a team.
a) The primary issue with translating the help file after the rest of 
the UI, is that it does not get done. (Take a look at the number of 
localizations of LibO, where the Help file is not translated into the 
target language.) 
That is one way of looking at it. The other is that of cost vs benefit. 
It would be nice if someone actually did any research but using the 
in-built help in my experience has almost become a joke, like the tools 
Windows includes for automatically fixing issues. In most cases, it does 
not have the answer you're looking for and/or is out of date. Even 
commercial projects with large development teams often product shoddy 
Help, even for key features/issues. Like the Help on using Hunspell in 
Trados.


To be honest I'm surprised LO has not tried to determine if the in-built 
help is actually worth the effort from the end-user POV in contrast to 
online help and/or active user forums etc.


For a small team, it is certainly the smallest bang for you buck in my 
view.
b) By starting with the Help File, one can incorporate it into the 
Documentation Work Flow, ensuring the documentation is consistent 
across the various mediums. Otherwise you end up with situations like 
the US English, where the written documentation and the help file 
contradict each other. Even worse, is when both the built-in help 
file, and written documentation are wrong

Which makes the Help stuff an even worse place to start.
The advanced/expert users of the software. 
No. They hit Google and find the answer on some forum, wiki or some such 
platform. I would bet the farm on it.
I realize that Apple pioneered "Prohibit documentation wherever and 
whenever possible", but all that really results in, is to ensure that 
the user is unable to use the product as designed
I'm not an Apple disciple, if that's what you're hinting at. If the 
software is well designed, you shouldn't have to resort to Help much.
It is no more heartbreaking to translate the Help file, as it is to 
translate the rest of the UI, or the documentation that is in other 
languages, into the target language.
Fundamentally disagree. The UI on the whole is not that bad and in some 
places, actually a lot of fun (with the Calc functions are probably the 
worst bit of the UI) - on the whole, they're manageable chunks and you 
can use TM to great effect. Help is full of big chunks with eye watering 
tags that confuse not only translators but also TMs. And like 
translating EULAs, all the while you're thinking "who's actually going 
to read this".


It's a bit of a cliché but "more research would be welcome" :)

Michael

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[libreoffice-l10n] Bavarian and Nipmuck

[Michael Bauer]

Sorry for the delay in responding, Im travelling.
I think I disagree with most things that have been said in this discussion 
so far.


Let me try and go through them one by one...


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[libreoffice-l10n] Bavarian and Nipmuck - report

[Michael Bauer]

Somehow the mail client ate most of my email, reposting, sorry...


---


Sorry for the delay in responding, Im travelling.


I think I disagree with most things that have been said in this discussion so 
far.


Let me try and go through them one by one...


1) Orthography


Terrible reason to turn down a project. Most l10n projects LO has involve 
languages where spellling is a potentially contentious issue. Perhaps the 
really big locales have very settled spelling systems but even they are not 
immune. For example, I doubt that anyone is enforcing either pre or post 
spelling reform spellings in the German project. Some locales actually 
deliberately use l10n to help standardize spelling.


2) Team size


Errr no. 1 dedicated locaizer is more than enough. I have a day job and I also 
do virtually all the l10n work on Mozilla, LO, WorPress (both), VLC, and 
several other projects. In fact, a single localizer can be more effective in 
some instances provided they put in sufficient time and effort. In fact having 
a team for Scottish Gaelic initially would have been a hindrance, not a help 
because there would have been ENDLESS debates around terminology and spelling. 
In a non-standardized language, a single translator can produce translations 
which are superior than those of a team, provided they are fluent and generally 
good with technology.


3) Its extinct or critically endangered
Well, so is Scottish Gaelic, less than 60k speakers is hardly a stadium full of 
people... l10n is a key part of any revitalization effort in a society which is 
not cut off from technology. It is perhaps the one way in which a marginalized 
language can gain a foothold on the screens of the next generation, small as it 
may be. A program with a UI in a marginalized language has a big wow factor if 
done well. If you localize Diablo III into German, people just expect that, its 
not news. Translate it into Nipmuck and itll be all over the airwaves.


Wikipedia or even Ethnologue are not the pinnacle of information when it comes 
to smaller languages. On several occasions have I come across languages marked 
as extinct in one, but not the other or vice versa or even where both were 
simply wrong. For example, they had a Basque Creole lumped in with a Romani 
language code in once instance.


4) Better to translate literature


Yes and no. Im a very good localizer but Im totally useless at translating 
literature or poetry or songs. Its called a specialism, no translator worth 
their money translate EVERYTHING. Id be equally useless at writing 
non-technical content.


5) Start with documentation/help

No.It would raise the wrong expectations, if you give the average user a screen 
that says Filte, unless highly cynical, they would expect the rest in the same 
lingo too.


As to the Help, who reads the Help? Ever? Unless they dont have web access. 
Even if some folk use it, its the worst starting point and a soul-destroying 
task.


6) Professors say to prioritise proofing


Maybe but that depends on the locale. To create a spellchecker you first need 
either really good dictionary or ody of well spelled texts, plus someone who 
can do code to some extent because doing a Hunspell package is not entirely 
straight forward. Grammar checkers are equally nice but not a priority to begin 
with I would say. Small languages often have not codified their grammar fully 
and thus if you just write some rules, youll just annoy everybody.


In the end, these are just opinions. They are neither uniform (I disagree for 
one) not are they based on research.


7) Firefox


That is actually the best alternative suggestion Ive heard in this debate. It 
might make sense to look into that. But either way, LO and Firefox are both 
must-haves really so it doesnt make that much of a difference which one you 
start with. Firefox, since it has Android and iOS versions now, would get you 
more bang for your buck faster though to begin with


8) Machine Translation


Worst idea ever. MT relies on massive bilingual corpora - and thats just the 
start of the headaches. The last thing a language like Nipmuck needs is a MT 
system that cost them huge resources to produce and which outputs 
semi-gibberish at best. Irish is in a much better position regarding 
English/Irish data and yet Google Translate produces Irish which either makes 
you laugh yourself silly or makes you cry.
Long story short, my view is, welcome to both, just have a moment to consider 
the implications regarding time/effort/other challenges and if you still think 
its a good idea, good on you.


Michael


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: Bavarian and Nipmuck - report

[Michael Bauer]

He doesn't need to hit the Dev list, I can help him set up the initial bit this 
weekend once I'm back at my desk. 
Michael


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 Original message 
From: Mihovil Stanić <miho...@miho.im> 
Date:09/12/2015  15:40  (GMT+01:00) 
To: l10n@global.libreoffice.org 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: Bavarian and Nipmuck - report 

dev-l...@lists.mozilla.org

09.12.2015 u 15:37, Greater Worcester Land Trust je napisao/la:
> I am not deterred from thinking that a practical daily use program in the
> language would be a great help to those working in it and on it.
>
> I will say that translating literature isn't my gift or talent, but I can
> break down technical concepts pretty well.
>
> I am interested in pursuing Firefox as a trial run, and if that doesn't
> break me, eventually return to LO and have a go at it.
>
> Thanks to everyone for the input, critique, and advice.
>
> If anyone knows folks on the Mozilla Firefox team I would be deeply
> appreciative of an introduction to their l10n effort.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Colin
> On Dec 9, 2015 9:31 AM, "Michael Bauer" <f...@akerbeltz.org> wrote:
>
>> Somehow the mail client ate most of my email, reposting, sorry...
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Sorry for the delay in responding, I'm travelling.
>>
>> I think I disagree with most things that have been said in this discussion
>> so far.
>>
>> Let me try and go through them one by one...
>>
>> 1) Orthography
>>
>> Terrible reason to turn down a project. Most l10n projects LO has involve
>> languages where spellling is a potentially contentious issue. Perhaps the
>> really big locales have very settled spelling systems but even they are not
>> immune. For example, I doubt that anyone is enforcing either pre or post
>> spelling reform spellings in the German project. Some locales actually
>> deliberately use l10n to help standardize spelling.
>>
>> 2) Team size
>>
>> Errr no. 1 dedicated locaizer is more than enough. I have a day job and I
>> also do virtually all the l10n work on Mozilla, LO, WorPress (both), VLC,
>> and several other projects. In fact, a single localizer can be more
>> effective in some instances provided they put in sufficient time and
>> effort. In fact having a team for Scottish Gaelic initially would have been
>> a hindrance, not a help because there would have been ENDLESS debates
>> around terminology and spelling. In a non-standardized language, a single
>> translator can produce translations which are superior than those of a
>> team, provided they are fluent and generally good with technology.
>>
>> 3) It's extinct or critically endangered
>>
>> Well, so is Scottish Gaelic, less than 60k speakers is hardly a stadium
>> full of people... l10n is a key part of any revitalization effort in a
>> society which is not cut off from technology. It is perhaps the one way in
>> which a marginalized language can gain a foothold on the screens of the
>> next generation, small as it may be. A program with a UI in a marginalized
>> language has a big wow factor if done well. If you localize Diablo III into
>> German, people just expect that, it's not news. Translate it into Nipmuck
>> and it'll be all over the airwaves.
>>
>> Wikipedia or even Ethnologue are not the pinnacle of information when it
>> comes to smaller languages. On several occasions have I come across
>> languages marked as extinct in one, but not the other or vice versa or even
>> where both were simply wrong. For example, they had a Basque Creole lumped
>> in with a Romani language code in once instance.
>>
>> 4) Better to translate literature
>>
>> Yes and no. I'm a very good localizer but I'm totally useless at
>> translating literature or poetry or songs. It's called a specialism, no
>> translator worth their money translate EVERYTHING. I'd be equally useless
>> at writing non-technical content.
>>
>> 5) Start with documentation/help
>>
>> No.It would raise the wrong expectations, if you give the average user a
>> screen that says Fàilte, unless highly cynical, they would expect the rest
>> in the same lingo too.
>>
>> As to the Help, who reads the Help? Ever? Unless they don't have web
>> access. Even if some folk use it, it's the worst starting point and a
>> soul-destroying task.
>>
>> 6) Professors say to prioritise proofing
>>
>> Maybe but that depends on the locale. To create a spellchecke