Re: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay
Hello Laurie Maybe the seller would be better advised to describe the bobbins as 'possibly by' a certain maker and leave the decision open to the buyer. I also have noticed other bobbin sellers quoting the book by David and Christine - which I agree is excellent but not infallible. My own personal problem is when sellers (though of course it may not have been them) 'tamper' with bobbins i.e. replace wiring or beading (with beads totally inappropriate in size, colour etc), replace tinsel with bright shiny new or touch up the paintwork. OK when the old bobbins were new they would probably have been to our eyes quite garish but I prefer to see them in all their faded glory :o) Diana in Northants - Original Message - From: Laurie Waters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: arachne lace@arachne.com Cc: Laurie Waters [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 9:22 PM Subject: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay There is a nice bone bobbin on ebay 220138516687 which is attributed to maker David Haskins. The seller has several other bobbins up for sale attributed to specific old makers. I just wrote to her asking how she could be so sure of the maker, and she said that she's relying on the Springett book Success to the Lace Pillow. An excellent work, and I'm sure the Springetts have done their work very well. I haven't looked in detail at their description, but I'm sure the seller has. But I have a larger question. Bobbins aren't signed and she seems to be guessing that this is a Haskins bobbin based on the Springett book. Shouldn't this item, and similar ones, be marked as 'in the style of Haskins', with the Springett book given as a reference? Or something like that? It may be a perfect attribution for all I know, but then again it might be someone copying Haskins or a modern reproduction - fakers can be extremely clever. Without a more specific provinance, I don't see how this attribution can be listed. I'd like opinions before writing to her again, or maybe even to Ebay officials. This isn't the first seller that I have seen do this. Thanks, Laurie - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay
Hi Laurie, This is something which has perplexed me somewhat - witness my posting re. the 'William Worsley Hanging Bobbin' which occasioned messages, which would seem to suggest that I was worrying unnecessarily.But - however many people tell me they are definitely genuine, I still retain a few doubts, especially if I am buying without actually seeing the item concerned. Many years ago. at a large Antiques Fair which will remain nameless, I spotted a common-or-garden plastic bobbin - one of the white ones - labelled as bone/ivory, and with a price of £17.00 sterling on it. And this was about 25 years ago!I mentioned to the seller that it was, in my opinion, plastic, and made by Mr Hornsby and, although Mr Hornsby's bobbins were good quality plastic, they weren't bone, neither were they ivory.She argued with me that they were, and I trundled out to the car, to fetch in several of my own white, black and brown plastic bobbins; I told her that, as a special offer - as she compared her one to my several - that she could have them at a special price of £3.00 each.She declined, not much to my surprise!The bobbin was taken off the stall at that point but, when I went back after a cup of tea and a rest, there it was, back again, same label, and same price.If she was so convinced, why didn't she want to buy mine, at such a good price? Since then, I must admit to being a little cynical when it comes to claims which it would be very difficult to prove - and I also have a good friend, who showed me how to 'age' bone so that it looks antique. Need I say more ... Just my four pennorth!May your pins never bend. Carol - in Suffolk UK - Original Message - From: Laurie Waters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: arachne lace@arachne.com Cc: Laurie Waters [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 9:22 PM Subject: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay There is a nice bone bobbin on ebay 220138516687 which is attributed to maker David Haskins. The seller has several other bobbins up for sale attributed to specific old makers. I just wrote to her asking how she could be so sure of the maker, and she said that she's relying on the Springett book Success to the Lace Pillow. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay
Hi Carol, Interesting. I was going to reply to your hanging bobbin post but got distracted. I actually bought a Worsley hanging bobbin last year from the same seller you were writing about. However, it says W. Worsley Hung 1868 (first name not spelled out). Somebody said that there were only 10 of these made - I think that's wrong, this was actually one of the most common hanging bobbins, and as a special collector's item it might not be too surprising to see 3 of them show up within one year. Especially when major dealers tend to buy complete collections for resale. And if people think that bobbins aren't worth faking, I suggest you read the Lovejoy mystery series - in at least 2 of the books that I can remember you will find him faking lace bobbins. Wonderful series about an unscrupulous antiques dealer which was made into a TV series a few years ago. As I said before, the bobbins for sale may be absolutely, wonderfully correct. Or they may be old, but by another maker. Or maybe not. They are good enough that I'm not through trying for them. But if she had said something like - based on the characteristics described by Springett (and give details), I am of the opinion that this is a Haskell bobbin, I would be much happier. Laurie - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay
Dear Clay, But considering how many people are collecting old bobbins, and how many old lacemakers existed 150 years ago... it doesn't take a giant leap to question whether all of these antiques are really so I fully agree with all you've written, expect perhaps for the above quote. I would have, that is until last week when I finished reading a wonderful book called Thomas Lester, his Lace and the East Midlands Industry 1820 - 1905 by Anne Buck, 1981 1982 ISBN 0 903585 09 X. Perhaps you have it too. In that book the author has gone to the trouble to check the numbers of people who offered lacemaker as their occupation in the various censuses petitions of the UK in the 19th century. Here are the statistics as she quoted them:- Buckinghamshire, Bedfordshire Northamptonshire- 1881 - 12,480 - 1871 - 20,587 - 1861 - 23,450 - 1851 - 26,670 (5,725 under 15 yrs of age) - 1830 - petition of lace-manufacturers - 150,000 - 1815 - over 150,000 Now, you will recall that it was about 1820 that the machine lace industry became firmly entrenched and began to have a significant effect on the numbers of lace-makers, as evidenced by the above figures. However, IF there were around 150,000 lace-makers in 1815 working point ground, it would not seem unreasonable to me that each would own at least 100 bobbins, giving us 15,000,000 antique bobbins for which to keep out an eye on Ebay :) Even if only half have survived, that's still ample for the numbers collecting them today, without forgers ever having to go to all that trouble. Just thoughts David in Ballarat - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay
Yes, your figures are compelling... but consider also that some of those lacemakers were making shoelaces! Remember that lots and lots of wonderful old things are chucked into the trash each year when people die and their heirs are overwhelmed with disposing of the detritus of a someone else's life. And we have to take into account that the bone bobbins were the prized items... mostly, people worked with wooden bobbins, which are also plentiful. So I'm still skeptical when I see so many antique bone bobbins on the market. And certainly lots of them are genuine... but some may not be. Clay -- Clay Blackwell Lynchburg, VA USA -- Original message -- From: David in Ballarat [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Clay, But considering how many people are collecting old bobbins, and how many old lacemakers existed 150 years ago... it doesn't take a giant leap to question whether all of these antiques are really so I fully agree with all you've written, expect perhaps for the above quote. I would have, that is until last week when I finished reading a wonderful book called Thomas Lester, his Lace and the East Midlands Industry 1820 - 1905 by Anne Buck, 1981 1982 ISBN 0 903585 09 X. Perhaps you have it too. In that book the author has gone to the trouble to check the numbers of people who offered lacemaker as their occupation in the various censuses petitions of the UK in the 19th century. Here are the statistics as she quoted them:- Buckinghamshire, Bedfordshire Northamptonshire - 1881 - 12,480 - 1871 - 20,587 - 1861 - 23,450 - 1851 - 26,670 (5,725 under 15 yrs of age) - 1830 - petition of lace-manufacturers - 150,000 - 1815 - over 150,000 Now, you will recall that it was about 1820 that the machine lace industry became firmly entrenched and began to have a significant effect on the numbers of lace-makers, as evidenced by the above figures. However, IF there were around 150,000 lace-makers in 1815 working point ground, it would not seem unreasonable to me that each would own at least 100 bobbins, giving us 15,000,000 antique bobbins for which to keep out an eye on Ebay :) Even if only half have survived, that's still ample for the numbers collecting them today, without forgers ever having to go to all that trouble. Just thoughts David in Ballarat - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay
Laurie, I don't know if others are having the same trouble as me, but all emails to you are bouncing. That's why6 I have to write to you care of Arachne. Please tell us if we need to alter your email address in order to reply David in Ballarat I have bought dozens of bobbins from this seller and she is a wonderful dealer who always says that she relies on Springett's book in the description of each bobbin. I have no complaints about her whatsoever. David in Ballarat There is a nice bone bobbin on ebay 220138516687 which is attributed to maker David Haskins. The seller has several other bobbins up for sale attributed to specific old makers. I just wrote to her asking how she could be so sure of the maker, and she said that she's relying on the Springett book Success to the Lace Pillow. An excellent work, and I'm sure the Springetts have done their work very well. I haven't looked in detail at their description, but I'm sure the seller has. But I have a larger question. Bobbins aren't signed and she seems to be guessing that this is a Haskins bobbin based on the Springett book. Shouldn't this item, and similar ones, be marked as 'in the style of Haskins', with the Springett book given as a reference? Or something like that? It may be a perfect attribution for all I know, but then again it might be someone copying Haskins or a modern reproduction - fakers can be extremely clever. Without a more specific provinance, I don't see how this attribution can be listed. I'd like opinions before writing to her again, or maybe even to Ebay officials. This isn't the first seller that I have seen do this. Thanks, Laurie - - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay
Dear Susie All, Thanks for that information. Yes it would seem there should be plenty of old bobbins and I wonder how many of those are used on lace pillows today? Nothing could be prettier than a tool that has survived the ages...what stories they could tell. Exactly, And thanks to Ebay I now have enough antique bobbins, which I'm sure are genuine, to set up a pillow in point ground using them alone. Apart from the fact that it looks stunning, the stories just eke out of it as fast as the lace. David in Ballarat - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay
Dear Clay, Yes, your figures are compelling... but consider also that some of those lacemakers were making shoelaces! Now that's something I seriously doubt, for at that time, most shoes and boots were fastened with hooks and buttons (some of which ended up on spangles!! :) Remember that lots and lots of wonderful old things are chucked into the trash each year when people die and their heirs are overwhelmed with disposing of the detritus of a someone else's life. And we have to take into account that the bone bobbins were the prized items... mostly, people worked with wooden bobbins, which are also plentiful. So I'm still skeptical when I see so many antique bone bobbins on the market. And certainly lots of them are genuine... but some may not be. Fair enough, but I'm not. David - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay
Hi David and All. You numbers boggle the mind. I wonder how many lacemakers are in UK today and then, in the rest of the world? It is no where close to the 1881 figures I would imagine. Thanks for that information. Yes it would seem there should be plenty of old bobbins and I wonder how many of those are used on lace pillows today? Nothing could be prettier than a tool that has survived the ages...what stories they could tell. Susie Susie Johnson, Morris, IL Crafts Site: http://home.comcast.net/~cjohnson0969/ 815-942-1838 [EMAIL PROTECTED] DAVID WROTE: I fully agree with all you've written, expect perhaps for the above quote. I would have, that is until last week when I finished reading a wonderful book called Thomas Lester, his Lace and the East Midlands Industry 1820 - 1905 by Anne Buck, 1981 1982 ISBN 0 903585 09 X. Perhaps you have it too. In that book the author has gone to the trouble to check the numbers of people who offered lacemaker as their occupation in the various censuses petitions of the UK in the 19th century. Here are the statistics as she quoted them:- Buckinghamshire, Bedfordshire Northamptonshire - 1881 - 12,480 - 1871 - 20,587 - 1861 - 23,450 - 1851 - 26,670 (5,725 under 15 yrs of age) - 1830 - petition of lace-manufacturers - 150,000 - 1815 - over 150,000 Now, you will recall that it was about 1820 that the machine lace industry became firmly entrenched and began to have a significant effect on the numbers of lace-makers, as evidenced by the above figures. However, IF there were around 150,000 lace-makers in 1815 working point ground, it would not seem unreasonable to me that each would own at least 100 bobbins, giving us 15,000,000 antique bobbins for which to keep out an eye on Ebay :) Even if only half have survived, that's still ample for the numbers collecting them today, without forgers ever having to go to all that trouble. Just thoughts David in Ballarat - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay
I live in the county of Northamptonshire - the county was once considered the boot and shoe 'capital' of the UK ;o) As far as I am aware the laces used in the boot and shoe industry were/are not made in the area. In the north of the county women/children listed as 'lacemakers' were employed in machine made net embroidery under various titles - lace runner, lace embroiderer, frame lace maker, cotton winder, network embroiderer, purl/pearl worker. Diana in Northants - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay
There is a nice bone bobbin on ebay 220138516687 which is attributed to maker David Haskins. The seller has several other bobbins up for sale attributed to specific old makers. I just wrote to her asking how she could be so sure of the maker, and she said that she's relying on the Springett book Success to the Lace Pillow. An excellent work, and I'm sure the Springetts have done their work very well. I haven't looked in detail at their description, but I'm sure the seller has. But I have a larger question. Bobbins aren't signed and she seems to be guessing that this is a Haskins bobbin based on the Springett book. Shouldn't this item, and similar ones, be marked as 'in the style of Haskins', with the Springett book given as a reference? Or something like that? It may be a perfect attribution for all I know, but then again it might be someone copying Haskins or a modern reproduction - fakers can be extremely clever. Without a more specific provinance, I don't see how this attribution can be listed. I'd like opinions before writing to her again, or maybe even to Ebay officials. This isn't the first seller that I have seen do this. Thanks, Laurie - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay
Laurie, I have bought dozens of bobbins from this seller and she is a wonderful dealer who always says that she relies on Springett's book in the description of each bobbin. I have no complaints about her whatsoever. David in Ballarat There is a nice bone bobbin on ebay 220138516687 which is attributed to maker David Haskins. The seller has several other bobbins up for sale attributed to specific old makers. I just wrote to her asking how she could be so sure of the maker, and she said that she's relying on the Springett book Success to the Lace Pillow. An excellent work, and I'm sure the Springetts have done their work very well. I haven't looked in detail at their description, but I'm sure the seller has. But I have a larger question. Bobbins aren't signed and she seems to be guessing that this is a Haskins bobbin based on the Springett book. Shouldn't this item, and similar ones, be marked as 'in the style of Haskins', with the Springett book given as a reference? Or something like that? It may be a perfect attribution for all I know, but then again it might be someone copying Haskins or a modern reproduction - fakers can be extremely clever. Without a more specific provinance, I don't see how this attribution can be listed. I'd like opinions before writing to her again, or maybe even to Ebay officials. This isn't the first seller that I have seen do this. Thanks, Laurie - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.13/947 - Release Date: 11/08/2007 2:29 PM - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Bobbin maker attribution on Ebay
Hello, Laurie... I was really interested in what you said about the seller who attributed certain bobbins to specific bobbin makers. I agree that the Springetts have contributed tremendously to our body of knowledge about antique bobbins. My undergraduate degree is in Art History, and there is no doubt at all that many works, which are well known and admired (worldwide), are attributed to major artists of the time, but are not absolutely attributed to the artist. Many artists had followers who faithfully followed the style of the master, and so there is another tier of works which are after the style of The same *could* be true of bobbins. But I really doubt that the value of bobbins in their day were worth the trouble to have schools in the style of Which brings me to the most important point (IMO) in your message... that (hopefully just a few) modern bobbin makers are capable of forging copies of old bobbins. THIS, I believe, is entirely possible. Bone is the essential ingredient, and a reasonably turned bobbin can then be subjected to assorted chemicals and dyes, and similarly modified beads can be attached with chemically aged wires... resulting in a bobbin that looks to be 100 years old. I have no proof, and I dare say that you don't either. But considering how many people are collecting old bobbins, and how many old lacemakers existed 150 years ago... it doesn't take a giant leap to question whether all of these antiques are really so Sigh... This is, indeed, an ugly side of what is a wonderful hobby. But I agree with you that collectors should be very cautious about the claims that are made by unknown sellers. Still, I agree that the term, attributed to, is much more accurate and appropriate, even when we want to hear the absolute!! Clay -- Clay Blackwell Lynchburg, VA USA -- Original message -- From: Laurie Waters [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is a nice bone bobbin on ebay 220138516687 which is attributed to maker David Haskins. The seller has several other bobbins up for sale attributed to specific old makers. I just wrote to her asking how she could be so sure of the maker, and she said that she's relying on the Springett book Success to the Lace Pillow. An excellent work, and I'm sure the Springetts have done their work very well. I haven't looked in detail at their description, but I'm sure the seller has. But I have a larger question. Bobbins aren't signed and she seems to be guessing that this is a Haskins bobbin based on the Springett book. Shouldn't this item, and similar ones, be marked as 'in the style of Haskins', with the Springett book given as a reference? Or something like that? It may be a perfect attribution for all I know, but then again it might be someone copying Haskins or a modern reproduction - fakers can be extremely clever. Without a more specific provinance, I don't see how this attribution can be listed. I'd like opinions before writing to her again, or maybe even to Ebay officials. This isn't the first seller that I have seen do this. Thanks, Laurie - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
