RE: [lace] lappets, each pair unique? Honiton v. Flemish?-earliest tallies?

[devonthein]

I have sent Nancy and Lorelei some photos that I took that I can only share
privately for study purposes. (Anyone else?) They show rather elaborate tally
grounds such as I associate with Honiton. This  falls into the category of
something I never thought about before. But, when did tally grounds, by which
I mean lots of square tallies, in a ground like arrangement with other
stitches, first start to appear? Can we put a date on it? It is sort of hard
to tell from Levey if, for instance, the Benediction Veil dated 1716 in plate
318 might have tally grounds, because like these pieces, they appear to be
square, like five hole grounds in an overall picture.
To Nancy’s point that point d’Angleterre applies to two different laces in
different eras, it is sort of the case with Brussels bobbin lace as well. I
was reading the introduction to the 2004 book by Claire Browne about lace in
the V & A in order to observe her use of terminology and, although she is
trying to adopt the “Brussels bobbin lace” nomenclature for “point
d’Angleterre” at one point she has to start differentiating between the
Brussels part lace and the Brussels application lace when comparing it to a
different lace. One problem is that they made everything in Brussels. In fact
you might call Duchesse Brussels bobbin lace.
Devon

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Re: [lace] lappets, each pair unique? Honiton v. Flemish?

[Nancy Neff]

Devon,

I'm with Lorelei, I can't see tallies, so I'm not sure of this
identification, but if it's braids connecting the motifs, how about
mid-18th C Brussels? Laurie Waters identified a very similar piece for me
as "Brussels a Brides", probably Flemish given the quality.

Elizabeth Kurella makes a good argument for avoiding the label Point
d'Angleterre altogether because it was used for two distinctly different
kinds of lace. I'll check the details when I get home, so I don't muddle
the info.

Nancy

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 7:40 PM, Lorelei Halley <lhal...@bytemeusa.com>
wrote:

> Devon
> Very interesting. I couldn't get close enough to either piece to see
> tallies
> or other details. Stylistically these fit in the first 2 decades of the
> 1700s. I would think the label "Flemish" is appropriate, or possibly "early
> Brussels". This doesn't fit with the pieces usually called "point
> d'Angleterre" (which usually match mid 18th c style).
> As to whether they might be Honiton, the problem is that we don't have any
> external evidence of what Honiton laces looked like in the 18th century. We
> do know that 19th and 20th c Honiton Liked to use many different fillings
> in
> the same piece, and many of those are tally-based. But that does not give
> us
> certainty that 18th century Honiton did the same. In fact we don't even
> have
> any certainty that the Devon area made any part lace bobbin lace during
> that
> time. Levey seems to think there was some (she coined the term "Bath
> Brussels" to describe that kind). What I am sure of is that we can't assume
> that 18th century Honiton (if it existed) looked anything like 19th or 20th
> c Honiton.
> Going back to your 2 examples -- those braids which connect the motifs to
> each other are typical of laces from the early 18th c.
> Lorelei
>
>
> From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of
> devonth...@gmail.com
> Subject: [lace] lappets, each pair unique? Honiton v. Flemish?
> In my continuing study of whether the term point db
>
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RE: [lace] lappets, each pair unique? Honiton v. Flemish?

[Lorelei Halley]

Devon
Very interesting. I couldn't get close enough to either piece to see tallies
or other details. Stylistically these fit in the first 2 decades of the
1700s. I would think the label "Flemish" is appropriate, or possibly "early
Brussels". This doesn't fit with the pieces usually called "point
d'Angleterre" (which usually match mid 18th c style). 
As to whether they might be Honiton, the problem is that we don't have any
external evidence of what Honiton laces looked like in the 18th century. We
do know that 19th and 20th c Honiton Liked to use many different fillings in
the same piece, and many of those are tally-based. But that does not give us
certainty that 18th century Honiton did the same. In fact we don't even have
any certainty that the Devon area made any part lace bobbin lace during that
time. Levey seems to think there was some (she coined the term "Bath
Brussels" to describe that kind). What I am sure of is that we can't assume
that 18th century Honiton (if it existed) looked anything like 19th or 20th
c Honiton.
Going back to your 2 examples -- those braids which connect the motifs to
each other are typical of laces from the early 18th c.
Lorelei


From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of
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Subject: [lace] lappets, each pair unique? Honiton v. Flemish?
In my continuing study of whether the term point db

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[lace] lappets, each pair unique? Honiton v. Flemish?

[devonthein]

In my continuing study of whether the term point d’Angleterre should be
used, or Brussels bobbin lace, I decided to consult the on line catalogs of
other museums. I started with the Philadelphia Museum of Art, searching
“point d’Angleterre”. Several things came up but one looked strangely
familiar. I realized I had seen a virtually identical piece last month at my
museum.
The Philadelphia piece, 1942-63-1can be found here:
http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/permanent/193507.html?mulR=2110731174|
4
The Met piece 46.166 here:
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/227246?sortBy=Relevanceft
=46.166offset=0rpp=20pos=2
Also, there is a lot of use of tallies, which I find reminiscent of Honiton,
although both are identified as Flemish and point d’Angleterre.
The Met piece is two lappets joined in the middle. The Phildelphia piece
begins to diverge and may be mended at the top of the lappet, then the rest is
not in the picture. The design appears to be flipped, but that could just be
the photo since photographers often can’t tell the back from the front.
Any thoughts?
Devon
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[lace] Lappets/Fine thread

[devonthein]

I sent Catherine via email a photo of a spool of thread that I studied during
a demonstration of Alencon by the school in Alencon in 2014. It seemed like a
normal spool of fine cotton thread to me, not anything unavailable on the
market. I noted that in a video they showed at the museum the thread was in
skein form. So, I don’t know if this means that they used to use a thread in
skein form, and now have to get spools. Laurie Waters, who taught an Alencon
class at the convention had obtained skeins of antique thread on ebay and that
is the format that they used in about 1980 when she visited Alencon.
 Another possibility I suppose is that they could use different threads in
different formats, but they didn’t bother to bring a skein to the
demonstration. For readers of the Bulletin, this was the demonstration in
which under my persistent questioning about materials, it was revealed that
the horsehair is not from the tail of the male horses, but rather from the
forelock! This was fascinating because we in Laurie Waters’ class had
measured the horse hair, using a computer microscope, in the antique Alencon
and found it was thinner than any of the horse hair in any of the whisks, etc,
that Laurie had collected as horsehair samples. In fact the hair was closer in
size to our own hair. So that was quite puzzling until I was told in Alencon
that the hair was from the forelock of the horse and the horse was from the
Royal Stables of Le Pen and this had always been the case!
However, in the endless search for suitable thread, I encountered another
interesting idea. Kumiko Nakazaki was teaching Binche in NJ. I was making a
piece in cotton and it didn’t look much like the sample Kumiko had made.
Kumiko told me that there is a kind of cotton thread, and I think she said it
was available in Bruges, that had a hand, or somehow behaved like the old
linen thread. I think it was an antique thread and she didn’t seem to know
how old it might be. When I threw out suggestions like 1950, and 1910, she
couldn’t even give me a ball park type of answer. So, I am totally intrigued
with the idea that you could make a cotton thread that behaved like the old
linen thread.
Has anyone else heard of this? This sounds like a challenge for Bart and
Francis.

Devon

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Re: [lace] lappets

[Catherine Barley]

Hi Nancy

Thank you so much for the video links and I've watched them all this morning.  
However, like yourself, my French is pretty much non-existent so not able to 
know if they divulged the brand of thread that they use to make their Alencon 
lace, but I doubt very much that they would have done!  I really don't think 
the Tourist Board would be willing to share this information either.  I'm 
inclined to agree with you about the lace on the heading of their page but the 
image is so poor that I couldn't really be certain as some of the areas do look 
very similar to some of the needlelace filling - surely they wouldn't make such 
a dreadful error, but who knows!

Many thanks once again for the time and trouble you have taken on my behalf.

Happy lacemaking

Catherine 
Catherine Barley Needlelace
www.catherinebarley.com

Original message
>From : nancy.a.n...@gmail.com
Date : 11/02/2017 - 20:13 (GMTST)
To : catherinebar...@btinternet.com
Cc : lace@arachne.com
Subject : Re: [lace] lappets

Catherine,

I didn't see an answer to your question about Alencon lace, but I don't get
all the [lace] messages, so everybody forgive me if I duplicate someone
else's answer.

Yes, it is apparently still made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hI1uz0p9sk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_7lwhYEUCk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBws14YwHgw

My French is close to non-existent, so I don't know if there's enough info
in those to provide a lead to find out what thread they use.

Maybe write to the Tourism Bureau to see if they could put you in touch
with someone?
http://www.holidays-alencon.com/discover/point-dalencon-lacework  (The page
cracks me up, however--maybe I'm losing it, but the lace in the heading on
their page is not Alencon needle-lace but rather is Belgian bobbin-lace, if
I'm not mistaken.)

Nancy
Connecticut, USA

On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Catherine Barley <
catherinebar...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know what brand of thread is currently used in France to make
> their Alencon lace or even if anyone does actually still make Alencon lace?
>

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Re: [lace] lappets

[Nancy Neff]

Catherine,

I didn't see an answer to your question about Alencon lace, but I don't get
all the [lace] messages, so everybody forgive me if I duplicate someone
else's answer.

Yes, it is apparently still made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hI1uz0p9sk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_7lwhYEUCk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBws14YwHgw

My French is close to non-existent, so I don't know if there's enough info
in those to provide a lead to find out what thread they use.

Maybe write to the Tourism Bureau to see if they could put you in touch
with someone?
http://www.holidays-alencon.com/discover/point-dalencon-lacework  (The page
cracks me up, however--maybe I'm losing it, but the lace in the heading on
their page is not Alencon needle-lace but rather is Belgian bobbin-lace, if
I'm not mistaken.)

Nancy
Connecticut, USA

On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Catherine Barley <
catherinebar...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know what brand of thread is currently used in France to make
> their Alencon lace or even if anyone does actually still make Alencon lace?
>

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[lace] lappets

[Alex Stillwell]

Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 02:04:20 + (UTC)
From: Janice Blair <jbl...@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [lace] lappets

I am working on my second adaptation of a lappet from   


Hi Janice

Try www.bart-francis.be  I looked up their website a couple of months ago and
they still have 190/2, 200/2 and 240/2 Egyptian cotton, lovely thread, I have
been using it for several years. It only comes in ecru, the natural colour, as
bleaching would make such a fine thread too fragile.

Blow the dust

Alex

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[lace] Lappets

[Janice Blair]

Hi Catherine,I tried to send a private reply to your email but it was returned
as it was read as Spam at your end, so here it is.
Thank you for the compliment. If you look on my website, I have a needlelace
collar that I made a number of years ago and I was so new to the lace that I
did not realize I had to use a thinner thread for the net. Live and learn. I
made that one in Gutermann 100/3 silk and I am disappointed as it seems to be
more cream than white now. You probably have seen it before because I used
your flower designs for it and Liz's hankie corner for the centre back.
Janice Janice Blair Murrieta, CA, jblace.com

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Re: [lace] lappets

[Catherine Barley]

Janice your giraffe is exquisite!  Many congratulations and you must be 
delighted with the result.

I am faced with a similar problem in that I am currently working on an antique 
Point de Gaze pattern of a collar, given to me some 30 or so years ago by a 
Belgian lady.  At that time I didn't have the knowledge or expertise that I now 
have but always promised myself that I would work it one day.  I have been 
working on it for just over two years now and hope to complete it this year, 
but I have been faced with the same problem in that the threads that would have 
been used to work such a piece, are no longer available!  I have been using the 
Brok cotton threads which are also being discontinued and which worked well for 
needlelace but have had to resort to the Egyptian cotton threads which are 
produced in quite a variety of the different gauges that are required to work 
the Point de Gaze,  However, I find they don't have the 'body' of the antique 
threads and am doubtful that they would stand up to the 'wear and tear' that 
would be imposed on a collar?  I may wear it just the !
 once when finally completed and then have to resort to having it framed, as I 
would be devastated if the 170 Egyptian cotton that I have used for the fine 
net background should start to disintegrate into holes!

Does anyone know what brand of thread is currently used in France to make their 
Alencon lace or even if anyone does actually still make Alencon lace?

Catherine Barley
UK

Catherine Barley Needlelace
www.catherinebarley.com

Original message
>From : jbl...@sbcglobal.net
Date : 10/02/2017 - 02:04 (GMTST)
To : lace@arachne.com
Subject : [lace] lappet

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/

[lace] Lappets

[lizlace]

Alice – I remember you wearing lappets at one (or 2) of the IOLI
conventions.  I seem to remember you had a different one from your collection,
each day!  Everyone was looking out for you to see what you were wearing that
day – lace-wise!!
Next Convention I went to, I wore my Beds Dress Cap (featured on the cover of
Barbara Underwood’s, Beds Lace book!)  I did mine in navy polycotton – I)
I have white hair, so a white lace cap would not show up – navy shows up
well!!!, and 2) Polycotton, although rotten to work with, at least never
creases, - so I can haul it out of my bag, or suitcase, and it is ‘ready to
wear”!!!
I then made a mauve cap working from the same outline/shape, but in Knotted
lace!  The 3 tails at the back were a challenge for me – so it was a good
learning piece!!!
I must bring them along – if we can organize our trip over there again this
year!

I worked the neck tie from Mincroff & Marriage book and it always gets nice
remarks, and last year I saw it made in pale colours – multi-coloured, and
it was Stunning.  A lot is the shape of the ends – I think it may have
originally been lappet ends.

Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz, where we have been having a heat wave.

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Re: [lace] lappets

[Sue Babbs]

She is spectacular, Janice!  Well done!! I remember conversing with Holly 
about that birth sac and what she was going to do with the design when she 
worked on it -   a plant was our favoured suggestion.


I've added her to your album in Flickr

I look forward to seeing the ostrich in due course.

Sue

suebabbs...@gmail.com

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[lace] lappets

[Janice Blair]

I am working on my second adaptation of a lappet from the book about Thomas
Lester. I have managed to put a photo on Flickr in the Photo Stream. I thought
I was putting it in my album but it did not show up there. Maybe Sue can move
it for me. :-) Anyway, take a look. Holly Van Sciver did the pricking for it
from photos from the book as there are no prickings provided. Thankfully she
changed the baby giraffe birth sac that was between the giraffes legs into a
leaf and vine design.  The piece is close to 14 inches tall and I doubt I
would ever wear it on my head. It did win the Best of the Lace Division last
summer at the San Diego County Fair.  
I am currently working on another adaptation of one of the ostrich lappets in
the same book. This one is bigger and wider. At the widest part I had on over
400 bobbins if you count all the gimp bobbins as well. I worked both pieces in
Egyptian 80/2 and enlarged them to 125% so that I could see what I was
doing.This one has a double plaited ground with lots of rolled tallies. I will
post a photo when it is finished.It will take ages to cut all the thrown back
threads and remove the pins. I hope to put it in the display at convention
this summer if it looks good enough. 
I should ask my daughter to put it on my revamped website. Just looked and
realized it was not there. 
Janice 

Janice Blair Murrieta, CA, jblace.com

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Re: [lace] Lappets versus collars and cuffs

[Clay Blackwell]

The most compelling argument that I can think of is that the history of lace 
had been traced back to the very early years after the dark ages, when totally 
dark clothing began to be lightened with white linen cuffs and collars, 
which...  over time...  began to be embroidered.  This eventually transitioned 
to embroidery with cut-outs, until finally someone realized how much expensive 
linen was being wasted, and that began the development of lace, as we know it.  
I believe that lappets are a later fashion development which happened to employ 
lace.

Clay

Clay Blackwell
Lynchburg, VA. USA

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 8, 2017, at 1:43 PM, Nancy Neff  wrote:
> 
> It may also be of interest to note that lace collars and cuffs were during
> much of their history worn by men as well as, or at times instead of,
> women, whereas lappets were worn only by women.
> 
> Nancy
> Connecticut, USA
> 
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Re: [lace] Lappets versus collars and cuffs

[Nancy Neff]

It may also be of interest to note that lace collars and cuffs were during
much of their history worn by men as well as, or at times instead of,
women, whereas lappets were worn only by women.

Nancy
Connecticut, USA

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[lace] Lappets versus collars and cuffs

[devonthein]

Jean asks, “Were separate lace collars and cuffs around as long as
lappets?” Interesting question. I certainly never thought about it before.

One could argue that lace collars and cuffs, although they predate lappets,
underwent more dramatic changes in size, shape, stiffness, and orientation
than lappets. From ruffs to falling bands, to engageants and berthas there
seems more diversity to the shape of collars and cuffs. While the lappet
changed in terms of width, exterior shape, rounded or squared ends, and of
course, interior design, it didn’t change all that much. Maybe the fact that
there are certain physical limitations to the area where lappets are worn is
the reason. A counter argument might be had in the existence of oddly shaped
Dutch caps in which side linen that could dangle is actually starched so it
projects sideways.

Devon

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RE: [lace] lappets in the 21st century

[devonthein]

Basically, the challenge is to get the lappets out of the lace conference and
onto the runways. How hard could that be? Fashion designers always borrow from
the past. I don’t think a simple expedient such as transforming lappets into
scarves is going to appeal to the fashion world which is always interested in
extremes. A full lappet ensemble with cap seems more likely. I think the
lappet style is rather flattering to the face. After all, it started in the
late 17th century and lasted until the late 19th century. Any style that
durable has to have genuine appeal.

There is no reason to think that Mark Jacobs, a man who once appeared at the
Costume Institute gala in a black (machine made) lace dress, would not try a
gender reversal on the lappet as well, as Adele suggests.

A larger problem that I see is that many of the best lappets required the fine
thread that is no longer available to make them in their historical
proportions. An attempt to recreate an antique lappet with the thread of today
might turn into more of a wall  hanging, or curtain, possibly a toga if it
were to be worn.

While Alice feels that it is the patterns that should be preserved, and they
are very pretty, perhaps lappet wearers of the 21st century would prefer
different themes than floral. Maybe they would like lappets with themes of
social commentary, or even abstract lappets.

Perhaps this would be a good topic for a lace contest. The Lappet of
Tomorrow.

Devon in dreary NJ

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Re: [lace] lappets books

[Ilske Thomsen]

Lorelei,
they are from a place named Hermannsburg which is in the northern part of
Germany, north of the town of Celle.
The lappets were worn for the confirmation. They are from black silk and a lot
of them in the technique of Erzgebirgische Guipure.

Ilske

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[lace] lappets books

[Lorelei Halley]

Alice
What style are the lappets?  Point ground, Mechlin?
Lorelei

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Re: [lace] lappets books

[lacelady]

- Original Message -
From: Lorelei Halley lhal...@bytemeusa.com

What style are the lappets?  Point ground, Mechlin?
Lorelei


The lappets of Hermannsburg, Germany, were mostly considered to be Erzgebirge 
Guipure.  The opinion of the people studying them were that they came from a 
variety of regions.  Unmarried girls wore a long, narrow double lappet (two 
lappets connected in the center) as a headband, tied in the back.  Most old 
lappets like this had damage in the area that would have been tied.

When married, they changed to a double lappet with a large diamond area at the 
top of the head, called a fanchon.  Since most ladies were buried with their 
marriage fanchons, not many remain to be studied.  The narrow lappets remained 
in the cupboards because they weren't worn after marriage.

The book has an interesting history on the bonnets and lappets that were worn, 
and why fashion changed from one to the other.  Even if you never want to make 
a lappet, the history part of the book makes a good read.

Alice in Oregon

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