Re: [lace] Chantilly lace: Grenadine d'Alais

[Bev Walker]

Another source for grenadine, "of Granada, Spain" (cf. Gage Dictionary) -
perhaps in silk gauze-like association with the Moors.. not sure if this
helps any with "Grenadine d'Alais."

On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 7:45 AM, Adele Shaak  wrote:

> And “grenade” itself comes from the word “grain” (same meaning as
in
> English). I wondered how it became associated with crepe fabric
>
> Hope this helps.
> ...
> >> On 11 Jun 2016, at 15:12, Nathalie  wrote:
> >>
> >> Thank you for the interesting reaction on my question on Grenadine
> >> d'Alais, the silk for Chantilly lace.
> >> The meaning of Alais became clear but what is Grenadine?
>
--
Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of
Canada

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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace: Grenadine d'Alais

[Adele Shaak]

And “grenade” itself comes from the word “grain” (same meaning as in English). 
I wondered how it became associated with crepe fabric, but I think it’s from 
the same concept as “seeds”. Pomegranates have seeds, the surface of a grenade 
has “seeds” and the surface of crepe fabric could also be described as having 
“seeds”.

Hope this helps.

Adele
West Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)


> On Jun 11, 2016, at 7:29 AM, Brenda Paternoster  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 11 Jun 2016, at 15:12, Nathalie  wrote:
>> 
>> Thank you for the interesting reaction on my question on Grenadine
>> d'Alais, the silk for Chantilly lace.
>> The meaning of Alais became clear but what is Grenadine?
>> 
>> Does anyone know what Grenadine means?
>> 
> Wikipedia says it’s from the french ‘grenade” which means pomegranate.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenadine
> but a grenade weapon which is thrown has a textured surface not dissimilar to
> the texture of crepe fabric which is what you get when highly twisted
> grenadine thread is closely woven into fabric.

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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace: Grenadine d'Alais

[Brenda Paternoster]

> On 11 Jun 2016, at 15:12, Nathalie  wrote:
>
> Thank you for the interesting reaction on my question on Grenadine
> d'Alais, the silk for Chantilly lace.
> The meaning of Alais became clear but what is Grenadine?
>
> Does anyone know what Grenadine means?
>
Wikipedia says it’s from the french ‘grenade” which means pomegranate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenadine
but a grenade weapon which is thrown has a textured surface not dissimilar to
the texture of crepe fabric which is what you get when highly twisted
grenadine thread is closely woven into fabric.

Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace: Grenadine d'Alais

[Nathalie]

Thank you for the interesting reaction on my question on Grenadine
d'Alais, the silk for Chantilly lace.
The meaning of Alais became clear but what is Grenadine?

Does anyone know what Grenadine means?

Thank you.

Nath

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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace: Grenadine d'Alais

[Brenda Paternoster]

>
>
> From other sources "grenadine d'alais" is the black silk used for Chantilly
> lace. It has a loose weave and is of a dull appearance rather than shiny.

Grenadine cloth is loosely woven, but the thread used for the weaving is
highly twisted.
>>
>> Chantilly lace is made of Grenadine d'Alais.
>> There are many descriptions of the thread, the material itself.
>>
>> But I wonder what exactly is grenadine?
>> Is Alais the place where the silk is made or dyed?

According to Wiki Alaise is "one of the most important markets for raw silk
 and cocoons
 in the south of France"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al%C3%A8s

which suggests that cocoons and grey-state silk fibres were imported into
Alais from the east rather than being where the silk moths were cultivated.
The reeling and spinning of the thread and weaving would have been done in
Alais

Grenadine thread is highly twisted, that’s what gives it the matte
appearance.  Used to make closely woven fabric it would make a crepe fabric.

Grenadine lacemaking thread is available from Bart & Francis in Belgium
http://www.bart-francis.be/index.php?item=silkorganza--grenadine--superia
&action=page&group_id=18&lang=EN

about ⅔ of the way down the page.


Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace: Grenadine d'Alais

[Judith Smith]

Natalie,
You provided a delightful topic to accompany my morning tea.

A search on "silk d'alais" provided some interesting results.
Google Books has a report of the House of Commons on the silk industry of
France.

https://books.google.com/books?id=JyJDcAAJ&lpg=RA1-PA27&ots=myHOSd5jC6&dq=silk%20d'Alais&pg=RA1-PA27#v=onepage&q=silk%20d'Alais&f=false

Alais is a place. And from the above, it apparently has a system of measure
that was used in the silk production. In "poids d'Alais" (Alais pounds used
for raw silk) 240 pounds make a kilogram.
The report was a fascinating time machine into the 1830's.

>From other sources "grenadine d'alais" is the black silk used for Chantilly
lace. It has a loose weave and is of a dull appearance rather than shiny.

Judy in S Louisiana on the Mississippi where it's clear and humid at sunrise

On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 4:25 AM, Nathalie  wrote:

> Dearest lace lovers,
>
> Chantilly lace is made of Grenadine d'Alais.
> There are many descriptions of the thread, the material itself.
>
> But I wonder what exactly is grenadine?
>  Is Alais the place where the silk is made or dyed?
>
> I hope someone has the answer on these questions.
>
> Thank you in advance for your time.
>
> Nath
>
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>

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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace

[Clay Blackwell]

Thanks, Sharon!  Now that you mention it, I remember that bit!  And it seems 
that any excuse to call it hand made is grabbed with gusto!

In browsing through the Internet, I an also struck with how liberally sellers 
use the descriptions, "Chantilly" and "Alencon"!  The fabrics being offered 
usually have no distinguishing features resembling either!

Clay


Sent from my iPad

> On May 9, 2014, at 4:46 PM, "Rick & Sharon Whiteley"  
> wrote:
> 
> It's my understanding that by the time Chantilly lace really became popular 
> it was no longer made in Chantilly.  At the height of popularity in the 
> mid-1800's it was made by machine but the gimps were still put in by hand. 
> It's probable that the modern Chantilly is still made this way and threading 
> the gimps allows it to be called "hand made".  Sharon on Vancouver Island 
> 

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Re: [lace] Chantilly Lace

[Adele Shaak]

Hi Clay -

A shop owner once told me that it was OK to say "hand made" when it was a
human hand that operating the knitting machine. I guess the same thing goes
for lace looms.

Adele
West Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)

>  Imagine my surprise when I discovered "Handmade bobbin lace from the city
of Chantilly France"!  Judging from the pictures, some of it is awful, some
not bad (but expensive), and I would wager that it is all machine made and
possibly hand-finished.
>
> http://www.housefabric.com/Chantilly-Lace-C285.aspx

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Re: [lace] Chantilly Lace

[Lyn Bailey]

I only looked at one picture, and it said, when you clicked on the picture 
for the details, that it was made on a Chantilly Lever machine.  lrb


Clay wrote:
David, some very stylish gowns these days feature "tulle" lace over beige, 
tan, pink, or other pastels.  So maybe hiding the obvious signs of machine 
made is also driving the fashions?



David Collyer wrote
 I discovered "Handmade bobbin lace from the city of Chantilly France"! 
Judging from the pictures, some of it is awful, some not bad (but 
expensive), and I would wager that it is all machine made and 
possibly hand-finished.


http://www.housefabric.com/Chantilly-Lace-C285.aspx


H. My first thought was "how come they've got pictures in a slightly 
blurry shade of pink. That's certainly no way to show off hand made lace 
these days. Or is it to hide the fact that it's machine made?


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Re: [lace] Chantilly Lace - HAND MADE?

[Catherine Barley]

Perhaps it's classified as 'hand made' because someone operates the 
machinery (using their hands) to produce the lace!


Catherine Barley
Henley-on-Thames
UK

Catherine Barley Needlelace
www.catherinebarley.com
- Original Message - 
From: "Jay Ekers" 


Subject: RE: [lace] Chantilly Lace



I  clicked on a couple of the Handmade bobbin laces from the city of
Chantilly, France. http://www.housefabric.com/Chantilly-Lace-C285.aspx

The descriptions of two only asserted that they are "made in France"; or 
are

"original Chantilly lace made in France".  But for a third,

"Please Note; This lace is produced on true Chantilly Lace Lever looms.
Pieces are 3.3 yards."

This is a definition of 'hand made'?

Jay in Sydney 


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RE: [lace] Chantilly Lace

[Jay Ekers]

I  clicked on a couple of the Handmade bobbin laces from the city of
Chantilly, France. http://www.housefabric.com/Chantilly-Lace-C285.aspx

The descriptions of two only asserted that they are "made in France"; or are
"original Chantilly lace made in France".  But for a third, 

"Please Note; This lace is produced on true Chantilly Lace Lever looms.
Pieces are 3.3 yards."

This is a definition of 'hand made'?

Jay in Sydney

-Original Message-
From: Clay Blackwell; Arachne
Subject: Re: [lace] Chantilly Lace

I have been asked to make a wedding dress for my niece, and started 
looking on the Internet to see what fabrics might be available.  
Imagine my surprise when I discovered "Handmade bobbin lace from the 
city of Chantilly France"!  Judging from the pictures, some of it is 
awful, some not bad (but expensive), and I would wager that it is all 
machine made and possibly hand-finished.

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Re: [lace] Chantilly Lace

[Clay Blackwell]

David, some very stylish gowns these days feature "tulle" lace over beige, tan, 
pink, or other pastels.  So maybe hiding the obvious signs of machine made is 
also driving the fashions?

Clay

Sent from my iPad

> On May 9, 2014, at 9:32 AM, David C COLLYER  wrote:
> 
>>  I discovered "Handmade bobbin lace from the city of Chantilly France"!  
>> Judging from the pictures, some of it is awful, some not bad (but 
>> expensive), and I would wager that it is all machine made and possibly 
>> hand-finished.
>> 
>> http://www.housefabric.com/Chantilly-Lace-C285.aspx
> 
> H. My first thought was "how come they've got pictures in a slightly 
> blurry shade of pink. That's certainly no way to show off hand made lace 
> these days. Or is it to hide the fact that it's machine made?
> David in Ballarat, AUS
> 
> 

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Re: [lace] Chantilly Lace

[David C COLLYER]

Clay,
I have been asked to make a wedding dress for my niece, and started 
looking on the Internet to see what fabrics might be 
available.  Imagine my surprise when I discovered "Handmade bobbin 
lace from the city of Chantilly France"!  Judging from the pictures, 
some of it is awful, some not bad (but expensive), and I would wager 
that it is all machine made and possibly hand-finished.


http://www.housefabric.com/Chantilly-Lace-C285.aspx


H. My first thought was "how come they've got pictures in a 
slightly blurry shade of pink. That's certainly no way to show off 
hand made lace these days. Or is it to hide the fact that it's machine made?

David in Ballarat, AUS

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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace fan

[lbuyred]

Achim,
What a lovely fan.  It certainly looks handmade to me.
Liz Redford
Raleigh, NC, USA
 Achim Siebert  wrote: 
> I'd like to show (off to) you a recent ebay purchase and would like to know 
> your professional opinion about it.
> 
> It's a Chantilly fan and I think at least the lace is genuine. I'm not sure 
> about the fan sticks and their material - the length of the outmost ones is 
> 33 cm (13 inches), so the fan is quite huge opened. The sticks have quite 
> some gloss on the lower part, but the finer sticks for the lace are blunt and 
> even seem scratched (from cleaning?). The lace itself is in very good 
> condition, only a few of the picots have lost their shape and some silk ends 
> are showing on the outer border. The endings of the lace are different on 
> both sides (see on the right of the photo, it seems as if a second repetition 
> of the pattern was started to make it fit to the sticks - or to the original 
> sticks if those were different).
> 
> Maybe some of you could give me some information about the fan stick material 
> (the seller said "faux tortoise", but I think it might even be real 
> tortoiseshell), the probable time the lace was made etc. - and maybe even a 
> rough estimation of the fans worth today, since I have no idea if I payed too 
> much or if this was a bargain.
> 
> Here's a little gallery of it:
> 
> http://gallery.me.com/achims63#100063&bgcolor=black&view=mosaic
> 
> Thank you for watching and participating in the thrill I have over this nice 
> item!
> 
> Best, Achim.
> 
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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace fan

[Achim Siebert]

Thank you all for your replies - seems I really got lucky with the fan then. 
It's definitely worth the 95$ I paid to me - now I just have to find a display 
case for it to keep it save. Or maybe I find a museum in Berlin that would show 
it so others can admire that wonderful intricate craftmanship as well.

Am 05.02.2011 um 20:41 schrieb Lorelei Halley:

> But if the
> fan sticks had been damaged, requiring re-mounting, the lace would most likely
> have been damaged as well.

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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace fan

[Ilske Thomsen]

Hello Achim,
it looks as a fine and old fan, over and over with motives not big parts only 
ground, the thread looks fine and unboiled silk too. The parts of lace over the 
sticks stand straight.
What belonged the sticks it's not possible to judge if the tortoise is real or 
faux.
Good purchase.

Ilske

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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace fan

[Agnes Boddington]

Hi Achim

I am not an expert, so dare not comment on the "technical" side.
However authentic it is or not, it is a beautiful fan, and for its age in 
excellent condition.


Agnes Boddington Elloughton UK


I'd like to show (off to) you a recent ebay purchase and would like to 
know your professional opinion about it.




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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace ruffs

[Ilske Thomsen]

David,
some of the things are chemical lace as they make for example in  
Plauen and St. Gallen.


Ilske

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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace ruffs

[Lora]

It is a beautifull collar either way. Thanks for the help. 

On 5 Dec 2009, at 00:53, David C COLLYER  wrote:


The pictures arnt great, can anyone knowledgable about such things tell if the 
lace is genuine?

http://www.kambriel.com/chantillyruff.html

Looks like it could be genuine to me.
Shame about the lipstick!!!
David in Ballarat

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Re: [lace] Chantilly lace ruffs

[David C COLLYER]

The pictures arnt great, can anyone knowledgable about such things 
tell if the lace is genuine?


http://www.kambriel.com/chantillyruff.html


Looks like it could be genuine to me.
Shame about the lipstick!!!
David in Ballarat

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RE: [lace] Chantilly lace ruffs

[Patricia Dowden]

Well, the pictures do not display the lace well, so I cranked up the 
magnification on my computer to about 400% and decided that it may be silk, it 
may be antique, and it may be handmade, but it isn't Chantilly.  The holes in 
the point ground should not be discernable from a photograph that is not a 
tight closeup.  I suspect that it is more probably a Point de Paris grounded 
piece which can have quite large (relatively) holes in the paris ground or a 
guipure (Beds, Cluny or Maltese) where the holes in the ground can be seriously 
large.  Both paris and guipure grounded laces were made in black silk.


-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of Lora
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 12:25 PM
To: Lace Arachne
Subject: [lace] Chantilly lace ruffs

Didn't know if any lacemakers would be interested in this. The clothing 
designer selling them has been around for a while and is quite respected as well

The pictures arnt great, can anyone knowledgable about such things tell if the 
lace is genuine?

http://www.kambriel.com/chantillyruff.html

Either way I thought it interesting when I stumbled across it in my inbox!

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Re: [lace] Chantilly Lace book on Ebay

[RicTorr8]

In a message dated 7/22/2005 4:33:34 PM Mountain Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> I too have been outbid by the buyer of this book in the past
> Jean - I notice she paid over $US54 for an old copy of Tina
> the Little Lace Maker - I wonder if she's got a copy of the
> reprint?
> 
> Boy, she must be wealthy!  I've seen her pay
> over 80 English Pounds for a modern bone bobbin by
> Tony Archer.
> 


Wouldn't be surprised if she's on Arachne! (No - it's not me! :<))

Ricki
Utah USA

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RE: [lace] Chantilly Lace book on Ebay

[Clay Blackwell]

Ah yes...  I checked Jean's link and discovered that the winner of the
auction is someone who has outbid me on at least one occasion!!  I'd be
curious to know what the person's interest is... is s/he a collector, a
lacemaker, both??  I doubt we'll learn, but would love to know that they're
assembling a wonderful collection for the love of lace!!

Clay

Clay Blackwell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



> [Original Message]
> From: Noelene Lafferty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Lace 
> Date: 7/22/2005 6:31:59 PM
> Subject: [lace] Chantilly Lace book on Ebay
>
> I too have been outbid by the buyer of this book in the past
> Jean - I notice she paid over $US54 for an old copy of Tina
> the Little Lace Maker - I wonder if she's got a copy of the
> reprint?
>
> Boy, she must be wealthy!  I've seen her pay
> over 80 English Pounds for a modern bone bobbin by
> Tony Archer.
>
> Noelene in Cooma
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~nlafferty/
>
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