Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 12:05 AM, rengel 
wrote:

Why is the tab bar with the open files right below the title bar, but above
> the menu bar and the tool bar?
>

​
​Let's end this conversation. ​
There are much more interesting and important matters to consider.

Regardless of our various opinions, Leo's main window
​will ​
remain as it is.
​

Edward

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

['Marcel Franke' via leo-editor]

Am Mittwoch, 18. April 2018 22:32:37 UTC+2 schrieb john lunzer:

That said, your argument appears to be based on something, the "conventions 
> and standards" of IDE GUIs, that if it exists at all is a rapidly changing 
> amorphous blob at best. 
>

Not true. There is strong core of established interface-Language that has 
emerged in the last 30-40 years. Most exceptions from it are really just 
single exceptions. Though, there is also an ongoing trend to evolve it even 
further. But even there it evolves without ignoring the old language.
 

> I say this because I spend about half my day using *emacs.*
>

Emacs is not a GUI. But even the small GUI-parts that emacs has, are 
following the established GUI-language.

emacs has seen many "conventions" and many "standards" come and go and yet 
> it has remained mostly as it was since it was young. 
>

Not really. Even emacs experience some fundamental itnerface-changes in the 
recent years. Helm, which-keys, hydra, God, they all are extrem 
changes from vanilla. Vanilla emacs only can remain as it is because it's 
not neccessary to change it, because everyone is using plugins to make 
their prefered interface, or using a starterkit to let other people do that 
cumbersome work for them.

To this day it is not the most popular editor/IDE, not by far, but it is 
> unarguably one of the most feature complete and powerful editors/IDEs in 
> existence.


Questionable. 

When I came to Leo I distinctly remember the top level tabs being odd, I 
> didn't really make sense of it at the time but now that you point it out I 
> realize it's because you are right that it isn't too common. However, not 
> being common is a poor indicator of desirability. and utility. 
>

It's not only the tabs being odd. Leo as a whole is very uncommon and 
dreadful for the established flows of people. It's very off-putting for 
first contacts, and even later it remains a tool that one must constantly 
fight to get things done. And many of those problems could be avoided with 
proper handling. The lazy or unprofessional (however you wanna see it) 
handling of interface-language is just the most visable sign of this.

 Over a decade ago Microsoft decided to break convention with the switch to 
> ribbon based menus and to this day they are cursed by many.
>

They are also praised by many. Fundamental changes always come with cursed 
and praises. But leos poblems are not because of fundamental changes.


The primary measure against which any software feature should be judged is 
> in it's utility. 
>

The primay measure for a tool is how fast and well you can adapt it into 
your workflow, and how big the overhead for it's usage is. Time is the 
essential part for anything.

To argue that top level tabs have markedly less utility than other layouts, 
> to the point of driving users away from Leo, borders on nonsense.


True. The impact of top-tabs is low. But for new Users it can be a nagging 
little point that adds another value to the list of reasons to avoid the 
tool.
For someone who test 10 different outliners to find a start somewhere, 
those little details bear a heavy weight. For someone who specifically went 
to leo because of someting only leo can offer, it doesn't matter much.

There is no doubt that Leo could be marketed more professionally, given 
> that Leo is not a commercial product it is hardly surprising. When somebody 
> steps up to volunteer their time to take on that role I suspect Leo will 
> attain greater use and visibility. 


Not really. The opposition against neccessary fundamental changes here is 
strong. I've seen many people here over the years trying to make an 
attempt. It usually ends all the same way. Every projects has the state it 
deserves and wishes for, and leo is not different there.

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[john lunzer]

Matt's reasoning is sound and explains the design decision well. 

That said, your argument appears to be based on something, the "conventions 
and standards" of IDE GUIs, that if it exists at all is a rapidly changing 
amorphous blob at best. I say this because I spend about half my day using 
*emacs. *If you invest in emacs like you invest in Leo you discover an 
amazing amount of power and configurability (and sometimes frustration). 
emacs strays perhaps even further from convention than Leo does but it is 
been around for 42 years and publicly available for 33 years! 

emacs has seen many "conventions" and many "standards" come and go and yet 
it has remained mostly as it was since it was young. To this day it is not 
the most popular editor/IDE, not by far, but it is unarguably one of the 
most feature complete and powerful editors/IDEs in existence. In emacs you 
can get top level tabs for context switching through several plugins (or 
through tmux), it is a desirable feature by many dedicated and talented 
programmers. 

When I came to Leo I distinctly remember the top level tabs being odd, I 
didn't really make sense of it at the time but now that you point it out I 
realize it's because you are right that it isn't too common. However, not 
being common is a poor indicator of desirability. and utility. 

Based on my extensive use of Leo and emacs I would argue that the fabled 
"conventions and standards" you spoke of are yet young and naive and if 
they have settled on anything it is more by chance than based on merit. If 
anything they need to be tested, to authenticate their utility. Over a 
decade ago Microsoft decided to break convention with the switch to ribbon 
based menus and to this day they are cursed by many.

The primary measure against which any software feature should be judged is 
in it's utility. To argue that top level tabs have markedly less utility 
than other layouts, to the point of driving users away from Leo, borders on 
nonsense. If any one thing drives people away from Leo it is by not giving 
themselves enough time to come to terms with outline based editing and the 
uncomfortable cognitive dissonance caused by the paradigm shift; in other 
words, *outlining itself*. To those ends Edward has put in countless hours 
trying to help new users understand how outlining works and how outlining 
can improve their workflow.

There is no doubt that Leo could be marketed more professionally, given 
that Leo is not a commercial product it is hardly surprising. When somebody 
steps up to volunteer their time to take on that role I suspect Leo will 
attain greater use and visibility. 

Until that time I would advise all to think carefully before posting doom 
and gloom topics. Ask yourself, "will this improve the tone and efficiency 
of the community?" Likely the answer will be no. A simple feature request 
will have sufficed. As Matt said perhaps the location of the tab bar will 
one day be configurable, perhaps when there is enough public support to 
warrant it or when someone with enough desire takes it upon themselves to 
implement. 

On Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 4:48:02 AM UTC-4, rengel wrote:
>
> Leo uses tabs to switch workspaces (contexts). Each .leo file can define 
> or redefine what menus, settings, plugins and so on are available within 
> it's context. So tabs are the highest level of containment.
>
> IMO this is only partly true. There are always menus, menu items, and 
> functions that are globally used (i.e. File, Help, View, the arrangement of 
> panes/windows) AND items that are context-specific, so it's not an 
> either-or question. Other IDEs (i.e. PyCharm) solve this dilemma by 
> providing two menus: one global menu bar and - within a tab - a 
> context-specific menu bar, sometimes even with an additional toolbar. I.e. 
> in the Web Development world this is exemplified by the CKEditor plugin for 
> web pages (https://docs.ckeditor.com/) or even the comment function of 
> this Google group.
>
>
> Reinhard
>

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[rengel]

Leo uses tabs to switch workspaces (contexts). Each .leo file can define or 
redefine what menus, settings, plugins and so on are available within it's 
context. So tabs are the highest level of containment.

IMO this is only partly true. There are always menus, menu items, and 
functions that are globally used (i.e. File, Help, View, the arrangement of 
panes/windows) AND items that are context-specific, so it's not an 
either-or question. Other IDEs (i.e. PyCharm) solve this dilemma by 
providing two menus: one global menu bar and - within a tab - a 
context-specific menu bar, sometimes even with an additional toolbar. I.e. 
in the Web Development world this is exemplified by the CKEditor plugin for 
web pages (https://docs.ckeditor.com/) or even the comment function of this 
Google group.


Reinhard

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Matt Wilkie]

I found this part of the exchange useful and am glad it happened 
(paraphrased for clarity):

*Why is the tab bar with the open files right below the title bar, but 
above the menu bar and the tool bar? *
*This is different from other IDE's and text editors and is confusing.*

Leo uses tabs to switch workspaces (contexts). Each .leo file can define or 
redefine what menus, settings, plugins and so on are available within it's 
context. So tabs are the highest level of containment.

Maybe not much help to people who don't redefine menus, but it does mean 
there's a reason. It's not just idiosyncrasy.

Many programs have tearable and dockable menus, toolbars, side panels and 
so on. Maybe some future version of Leo can leverage that so people who are 
1-file-per-context focussed can have their preferred cake flavour too.

matt

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Matt Wilkie]

Added as a tip:
https://github.com/leo-editor/leo-editor/issues/861

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 12:48 PM, rengel 
wrote:

>
> As far as flaunting convention, Leo isn't really like any other program.
>> I am not sure if the tyranny of the marketplace should apply to it.
>>
>
> Yeah, that's great, isn't is? This is a free world. In an open source
> world, nobody is forced to follow any conventions or standards or customs.
> But then don't wonder, why the market isn't embracing Leo.
>

​Enough.  This is not a constructive conversation.

Edward

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[rengel]

> As far as flaunting convention, Leo isn't really like any other program.  
> I am not sure if the tyranny of the marketplace should apply to it.
>

Yeah, that's great, isn't is? This is a free world. In an open source 
world, nobody is forced to follow any conventions or standards or customs. 
But then don't wonder, why the market isn't embracing Leo. I'm not saying: 
Leo should be so and so. I'm saying: If Leo wants more of the people 
suffering from the 'tyranny of the market', then it might possibly 
advisable to look at what the market is doing...
But then, this is only my personal opinion (and may be of some others who 
've been into marketing...). I mean, who care ss for potential customers or 
users?

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Chris George]

Heh.

I lived my entire life in one file for almost a decade. That file created 
and controlled over a thousand others in the file system, but only one Leo 
file.

I like context as an organizing principle. I learned to stop thinking in a 
file centric way when it comes to Leo. Now I have five or six different 
files, one for each of the different contexts I work in: Programming, 
Fiction, Non-Fiction, Websites, Meta (for stuff about Leo like the recent 
theming work), etc.

As far as flaunting convention, Leo isn't really like any other program.  I 
am not sure if the tyranny of the marketplace should apply to it.

Chris

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 8:40:36 AM UTC-7, rengel wrote:
>
> ... Leo doesn't use tabs to switch files...
>
>  
> Well, I do. 'workbook' in one tab, 'Settings' in a second tab, 
> and some application-specific Leo file in a third tab. 
> That way I might work on three or four Leo files in parallel.
> But thanks, for trying to explain.
>
> Reinhard
>
>
>
>

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Terry Brown]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 02:18:56 -0700 (PDT)
rengel  wrote:

> On Sunday, March 18, 2018 at 3:23:40 PM UTC+1, Terry Brown wrote:
> >
> > Firefox / Chrome / and I think at least one of the MS browsers have
> > tabs on top. Admittedly they don't really have menu bars, but they
> > have similarly critical elements under the tabs.  In both cases
> > (Leo and browsers) the tabs represent a complete change of context,
> > so I don't really see the tab positioning as surprising.  In Leo,
> > perhaps more than other apps., changing tabs can change the menus
> > and tools available. 
> 
> You might be missing my point.
> As I understood, Leo is not up against Firefox, Chrome, or Gimp, but 
> against full-fledged development environments for programmers like
> PyCharm, Eric, Eclipse, and I might add Atom or VSCode. They all
> follow the paradigm that I described in my original post. 
> 
> You only have a couple of minutes to make a first impression. The 
> impression Leo makes is: Doesn't honor/follow established standards. 
> Period. No time, to check out just another homegrown editor.
> 
> Reinhard

I think the examples you give (and Gimp is in that category too) are
using tabs to switch files.  Leo uses tabs to switch contexts, and in
that case browsers are the widespread familiar example.  Leo doesn't
use tabs to switch files.  You can use the bookmarks plugin to achieve
the same thing, and put the bookmarks in the position used by the file
switching tabs in your examples.  Leo also has other ways of collecting
"the subset of things I'm working on now", like clones.

Attempting to use Leo's context tabs to switch files the way PyCharm
etc. do would be very inefficient, requiring one .leo file per source
file.

Cheers -Terry

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[rengel]

On Sunday, March 18, 2018 at 3:23:40 PM UTC+1, Terry Brown wrote:
>
> Firefox / Chrome / and I think at least one of the MS browsers have tabs 
> on top. Admittedly they don't really have menu bars, but they have 
> similarly critical elements under the tabs.  In both cases (Leo and 
> browsers) the tabs represent a complete change of context, so I don't 
> really see the tab positioning as surprising.  In Leo, perhaps more 
> than other apps., changing tabs can change the menus and tools 
> available. 
>

You might be missing my point.
As I understood, Leo is not up against Firefox, Chrome, or Gimp, but 
against full-fledged development environments for programmers like PyCharm, 
Eric, Eclipse, and I might add Atom or VSCode. They all follow the paradigm 
that I described in my original post. 

You only have a couple of minutes to make a first impression. The 
impression Leo makes is: Doesn't honor/follow established standards. 
Period. No time, to check out just another homegrown editor.

Reinhard

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Chris George]

GammaRay is working again.

Did you have any specific questions?

Immediately below LeoTabbedTopLevel is 
QStackedWidget#qt_tabwidget_stackedwidget and QtTabBarWrapper. The only 
child of QtTabBarWrapper is a close button. The only child of 
QStackedWidget#qt_tabwidget_stackedwidget is DynamicWindow#MainWindow. I am 
not sure if I am using the # correctly. DynamicWindow is the type of 
widget, MainWindow is the object. I think I am doing it corectly as further 
down the tree is Type: LeoQTreeWidget and Object: treeWidget. I have 
successfully put these together LeoQTreeWidget#treeWidget and styled the 
result. In fact it is the only way I could style the outline tree. 
QTreeView works for most everything else in that window but the background 
and the font.

None of the top three types/objects are styleable. At least not using the 
type alone or the combination of type#object.

Chris




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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Chris George]

My system is haunted. GammaRay suddenly stopped working. I am
currently rebuilding it to reinstall.

GammaRay displays all of the attributes available for Qt widgets and
shows which ones have been enabled for that widget.

Was there anything specific you wanted to know? Once I get GammaRay up
and running again I can forward you the info. Or you could try it out
for yourself.


https://github.com/KDAB/GammaRay

Chris




On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 9:48 AM, Edward K. Ream  wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:44 AM, Chris George  wrote:
>
>> According to
>> Gammaray, LeoTabbedTopLevel has the StyleSheet attribute enabled, but not
>> the
>> StyledBackground attribute. Is there a reason for this?
>
>
> Almost certainly this is unplanned.
>
>>
>> Can it be enabled?
>
>
> I would imagine show, but I can find no info about w.
> StyledBackground.
>
> Is there any way to get more info from
> Gammaray.
>
> Edward
>
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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Edward K. Ream]

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 10:44 AM, Chris George  wrote:

According to
> ​​
> Gammaray, LeoTabbedTopLevel has the StyleSheet attribute enabled, but not
> the
> ​​
> ​​
> ​​
> StyledBackground attribute. Is there a reason for this?
>

​Almost certainly this is unplanned.
​


> Can it be enabled?
>

​I would imagine show, but I can find no info about w.
StyledBackground.

Is there any way to get more info from
​
Gammaray.

Edward

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Chris George]

I am working on a logical template for themes.

Part of this is working from the most general to the most specific for 
every visible widget. I should be able to style the top level widget and 
have that style flow down to all other widgets in the ui unless that style 
is overridden specifically for a descendant widget. ie. I can currently 
style a background image for QWidget and have that flow to all visible 
widgets, except for QTabBar. QTabBar will accept font-family, font-size 
etc. but will not accept a directly styled background-image or 
background-color. It inherits the background-color from QWidget, but not 
the background-image.

According to Gammaray, LeoTabbedTopLevel has the StyleSheet attribute 
enabled, but not the StyledBackground attribute. Is there a reason for 
this? Can it be enabled?

Chris

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 7:30 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <
off...@riseup.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I share Terry's opinion on this. Even more considering how particular
> documents could load customizations to buttons and other GUI items.
>

​I have just closed #822.  It would be a lot of work for dubious/negative
gain.

Edward

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Hi,

I share Terry's opinion on this. Even more considering how particular
documents could load customizations to buttons and other GUI items.

Cheers,

Offray


On 18/03/18 09:23, Terry Brown wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 22:05:28 -0700 (PDT)
> rengel  wrote:
>
>> One thing I never understood about the Leo GUI :
>>
>> Why is the tab bar with the open files right below the title bar, but
>> above the menu bar and the tool bar?
>>
>> Imagine a car where the accelerator and the brake were switched.
>>
>> In almost every other application (I know of) the order is:
>>
>> title bar
>> menu bar
>> tool bar
>> breadcrumbs (if used)
>> tab bar (if used)
> Firefox / Chrome / and I think at least one of the MS browsers have tabs
> on top. Admittedly they don't really have menu bars, but they have
> similarly critical elements under the tabs.  In both cases (Leo and
> browsers) the tabs represent a complete change of context, so I don't
> really see the tab positioning as surprising.  In Leo, perhaps more
> than other apps., changing tabs can change the menus and tools
> available.  In that sense they're the highest level of containment, so
> that combined with the web browser example makes me thing this isn't
> really confusing users.
>
> Gimp the image editor is a good example of where a lower tab bar makes
> sense, because all it does is change the image being edited, not the
> tools / menus available.
>
> Cheers -Terry
>
>> An application that exemplifies this order very well is PyCharm.
>> Like Leo it has  an outline structure and several resizeable panes,
>> each with multiple tabs for open files and functions. 
>>
>> This order implies a natural hierarchy and reflects some of the
>> paramount principles of GUI design: 
>> - Don't surprise the user. 
>> - Utilize prior knowledge.
>>
>> If someone is interested, there is more on this topic in 'GUI
>> Bloopers 2.0: Common User Interface Design Don'ts and Dos' (just
>> google for 'GUI bloopers).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Terry Brown]

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 22:05:28 -0700 (PDT)
rengel  wrote:

> One thing I never understood about the Leo GUI :
> 
> Why is the tab bar with the open files right below the title bar, but
> above the menu bar and the tool bar?
> 
> Imagine a car where the accelerator and the brake were switched.
> 
> In almost every other application (I know of) the order is:
> 
> title bar
> menu bar
> tool bar
> breadcrumbs (if used)
> tab bar (if used)

Firefox / Chrome / and I think at least one of the MS browsers have tabs
on top. Admittedly they don't really have menu bars, but they have
similarly critical elements under the tabs.  In both cases (Leo and
browsers) the tabs represent a complete change of context, so I don't
really see the tab positioning as surprising.  In Leo, perhaps more
than other apps., changing tabs can change the menus and tools
available.  In that sense they're the highest level of containment, so
that combined with the web browser example makes me thing this isn't
really confusing users.

Gimp the image editor is a good example of where a lower tab bar makes
sense, because all it does is change the image being edited, not the
tools / menus available.

Cheers -Terry

> An application that exemplifies this order very well is PyCharm.
> Like Leo it has  an outline structure and several resizeable panes,
> each with multiple tabs for open files and functions. 
> 
> This order implies a natural hierarchy and reflects some of the
> paramount principles of GUI design: 
> - Don't surprise the user. 
> - Utilize prior knowledge.
> 
> If someone is interested, there is more on this topic in 'GUI
> Bloopers 2.0: Common User Interface Design Don'ts and Dos' (just
> google for 'GUI bloopers).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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Re: Basic Layout of the Leo GUI

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 12:05 AM, rengel 
wrote:

>
> Why is the tab bar with the open files right below the title bar, but
> above the menu bar and the tool bar?
>

​I never noticed that!  The present containment hierarchy may be tricky to
change.

I have just created #822: Put outline tabs below the main window bar
.

Edward

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