Re: Added ninth chord (symbol)

[mskala]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016, Brett Duncan wrote:
>   I coded g2:5.9 in chordmode and got G9, which isn't the right
>   chord. I'm pursuing pop-chords.ly.
>
> As Matthew said, you will need to override how the chord name is displayed,
> but this (or Matthew's suggestion) at least constructs a chord with the
> right notes.

We should probably step back and clarify what seems to be the real issue
every time someone asks about chord mode:

Chord mode is completely separate from typesetting chord names.

"Chord mode" is chord *input* mode.  When you enter a chord with chord
mode, it is immediately translated into a set of notes, and whatever code
you used to enter it is forgotten.  Then if you are typesetting chord
names, the chord names are determined by analysing that set of notes, not
by referring back to the forgotten input code. [*]

If you want the notes to be G-B-D-A, use g1:5.9 or g1:9^7 .  Then you get
the notes G-B-D-A.  But this will not cause the name printed on the page
to be "Gadd9".  You get the chord, not the name.

If you want to change the names printed by a ChordNames context, so
that G-B-D-A will print the name "Gadd9" on the lead sheet, then use an
override such as with pop-names.ly.  But you need to enter the notes
correctly first.  You get the name only if you already have the chord.

You can do both, and it sounds like that's what Henry actually wants.  His
initial question, which gave a bunch of examples of note sets and seemed
to imply he'd accept any syntax that generated the correct notes, made me
think it was a question primarily about input syntax.

[*] There may possibly be some extra information stored beyond the set of
notes and used in certain cases for disambiguation, but the statement is
true in general.  The gap between this behaviour and what users *expect*
when they think they're entering "chords" is yet another example of a
problem caused by Lilypond's design philosophy of evaluating all input
fully as soon as it's parsed.

-- 
Matthew Skala
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before principles.
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/

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Re: Choice of pitch input mode

[David Wright]

On Fri 29 Apr 2016 at 17:52:16 (-0300), Caio Giovaneti de Barros wrote:
> 
>  On 4/29/16 7:27 AM, "Carl Sorensen"  wrote:
> >>About a year ago, Kieren indicated that he has decided to go completely
> >>absolute mode, even to the point
> >>of redoing his historic code:
> >>
> >>https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-04/msg00846.html

One hopes that he is aware of the ly script that can make this a lot
easier than it otherwise might be (though I'd couple it with "find"
rather than involve Frescobaldi).

> I was not aware of Kieren's opinion, but after my last work on
> Lilypond I'm arriving at almost the same conclusion. At least for
> music that works outside the tonal (and in a way also modal)
> paradigm of pitch ranges and intervals it is preferable to use
> absolute mode almost always. What a pain it is to write, say, a line
> by Webern in relative mode. And if you make a mistake along the way
> (and you will make it) you have to be prepared to hunt the right
> note to correct the octave next. At least with Frescobaldi you can
> click on the pdf viewer and it puts your cursor directly where you
> want, which is awesome.
> 
> >>
> >>I find his arguments interesting.  And if I were engraving things as
> >>complex as his, I might also move to absolute.
> >>
> >>But I am working on simple, short, pieces.  The longest I have done to
> >>this point is about 8 pages.
> >>For my use case, the convenience of less typing (and to be fair, not
> >>having to worry about the octave
> >>I'm using) overrides the inconvenience of the occasional octave mistake.
> >>
> >>So I use relative.
> 
> I do believe that at the end this is a choice the engraver has to
> make based on the type of music she or he is working with. Many
> decisions in code organization comes down to convenience, your
> habits and comfort, but just like music engraving in general there
> are good practices to make your work more productive, and if you
> need to be read and understood by others, this is even more
> critical.

I certainly think that absolute mode suits LP archives because it
lacks any ambiguity, so Kieren's converting all his historic code is a
sensible move. But the Subject line says "input mode" and then it's a
matter of horses for courses. Most of my music input consists of vocal
lines written out conventionally, so I find relative far easier and
faster. (Thank goodness octavation ignores accidentals.)

However, I find absolute easier if a voice is fragmentary; for example,
I write vocal performing scores where the accompaniment is sketched in
only when noone is singing (so they don't get lost). Similarly, when
writing keyboard parts where you sometimes have to juggle the voices
to get LP to render it correctly. (I don't enjoy that.)

But it's no surprise that composing directly into LP is only really
possible in absolute mode. The nearest I ever get to that is
transcribing from a recording, and anyway I do this voice by voice in
relative mode (making many more mistakes).

I haven't yet used the new duration-only mode. I've never investigated
what ly is able to do with its reformat option, but it would be great
if it could convert into a canonical style, where canonical could be
defined in ways such as: every note with pitch duration (or
even pitch) on only the first note of each line (omitted elsewhere);
single or zero space between each pitch pair; and so on.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: attachments and digest mode

[David Wright]

On Fri 29 Apr 2016 at 17:05:05 (-0700), Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:

> I will note, however, that the suggestions about using images or
> attachments don't seem to work with the list in digest mode.
> 
> Choosing an example from the latest digest, the attachment link yeilds a
> 404 error.
> 
> Is that intentional, that attachments are neither included in the digest,
> nor are they available through links?

Some are available through links; just not the ones given in the digest.
I don't know the particulars of your example because I had already
deleted it (not interested in chord mode) by the time I read your posting.

But to take a different example, the posting shown at
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-04/msg00705.html
had two images as attachments which the digest gave as
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/attachments/20160427/51250681/attachment.png
and
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/attachments/20160427/51250681/attachment-0001.png
but they are actually located at
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-04/pngft2OJWNLXh.png
and
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-04/pngjr7tJK6b8c.png

I pointed this out to the powers that be at gnu.org a while back,
but that might have been sent too high up the chain of admin. So
I'll try copying David Linn into this email instead.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Choice of pitch input mode

[Jeff Olson]

On 4/29/2016 4:56 PM, Jeff Olson wrote:

< 41312

41340


Okay, now I know what you mean by the > problem and I've modified my
ways and the script (to insert a couple of leading blanks) to show e.g.

  < 41312
  > 41340

HTH,
Jeff
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attachments and digest mode

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

I certainly have my preferences about mailing list etiquette (text-only,
bottom-posting, code examples inline, publish images on an external web
site and include inline links to the images.)

However, I realize that these are only personal preferences and should have
no real effect on the discussion, and even less on the course of the actual
mailing list rules or guidelines.

I will note, however, that the suggestions about using images or
attachments don't seem to work with the list in digest mode.

Choosing an example from the latest digest, the attachment link yeilds a
404 error.

Is that intentional, that attachments are neither included in the digest,
nor are they available through links?


(Are you ready for some top posting, doubled down with formatted text
inserted thanks to the default use of copying from a web page and pasting
into gmail?)

Here is the result of clicking on an attachment link from the digest:
Not Found

The requested URL
/archive/html/lilypond-user/attachments/20160430/e563edf7/attachment.html
was not found on this server.
--
Apache/2.2.14 Server at lists.gnu.org Port 80



And here is the message that has the attachment as link:

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 08:45:19 +1000
From: Brett Duncan 
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Added ninth chord (symbol)
Message-ID: <5723e3ff.8030...@bigpond.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

On 30/04/2016 8:24 am, Henry Law wrote:
> On 29/04/16 22:20, Brett Duncan wrote:
>> You can also use "c1:5.9", which just adds the 9th over the basic triad.
>
> I coded g2:5.9 in chordmode and got G9, which isn't the right chord.
> I'm pursuing pop-chords.ly.
>
As Matthew said, you will need to override how the chord name is
displayed, but this (or Matthew's suggestion) at least constructs a
chord with the right notes.

Brett
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/attachments/20160430/e563edf7/attachment.html
>



(If "scrubbed" means "removed without a trace", then I understand it
grammatically.  But in that case, why include a link?)



Thanks,

David Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
highly underrated*"
ela...@flaminghakama.com
self-immolation.info
skype: flaming_hakama
Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Re: Replying to posts

[Colin Campbell]

On 16-04-28 10:05 PM, Werner LEMBERG wrote:

As far as I know this particular list does not have a list owner,
and there are no published rules.

Of course there is a list owner.  However, up to now there wasn't a
single person who stomped our nuts too hard, so to say, forcing us to
banning him or her from the list.

In general, the list netiquette is quite simple.  Here's a small,
probably incomplete list.





In the dark days of yore, the newsgroup alt.callahans had a set of FAQ 
which were mailed automagically each month to all subscribers. Perhaps 
this set of items suggested by Werner could form the basis of a similar 
set of LP FAQ, also to be mailed automatically. Disclaimer: IANAlist 
manager!


Cheers,
Colin
--
I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his 
enemies, for the hardest victory is over self. -Aristotle, philosopher 
(384-322 BCE)


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Re: Choice of pitch input mode

[Jeff Olson]

On 4/29/2016 5:58 AM, Matt Hood wrote:

What does everyone prefer? Relative, absolute, or a mix of both?


Summary: For my work, a perl script confimed my choice of absolute
 mode in conjunction with judicious use of \transpose,
 but for other people it suggests relative is better.

Details:
I started with relative, to conserve line width and minimize input effort,
but soon realized that was a premature optimization.

In my transcriptions of Beethoven and Bach for guitar duos, most of the
input effort and line width is attributable to chords, fingerings, string
indications and other annotations.

And for the limited range of a guitar (3.5 octaves) I can \transpose c c'
to minimize the number of octave marks in absolute mode (so range is e, to b'').
Thus I never encounter long high runs of 32nds above c'''.

I also found that, for the limited range of the guitar, it was easier to think
in absolute (you're always aware of your octave on a guitar) than in relative
(especially in the frequent case where a pitch and its octave are in the same
chord or arpeggio, yet with identical pitch symbols).  Doing global replacements
in vi is also a bit easier in absolute than in relative.

To satisfy my curiousity about the "relative frequency" of octave marks,
both between files in relative vs files in absolute mode, and compared to
other annotations that seem to overwhelm octave marks, I wrote a little
perl script (included below) to count selected characters in ly files.

The script confirmed my intial impression that (a) octave marks are a trivial
contributor to line width (in my work) but also suprised me that (b) using
absolute mode on average only added one more octave mark per measure than
using relative mode (probably because I used \transpose to simplify input).

For fun, here are some specific test runs.

The first example is from when I used only relative mode.  FYI, I habitually
use measure marks (|) and try for one measure per line.  I also use lots
of abbreviations to shorten things where I can (see large number of "=" signs).

The results below for relative mode show only about 1 octave mark per measure
for a typical piece of about 6 pages:

$ ly-chars mypubs/pathetique-2-guitar-duo-2064/pathetique-2-guitar-duo.ly
In a file of 214 measure marks, 710 lines, 26458 characters and 3 \relatives ...
octave marks (,') are 1.0 per measure mark, 0.3 per line, 0.8 percent of file.

Here's a count of selected characters (X represents all others):
' 68
) 78
( 78
^ 121
# 124
_ 138
, 142
= 156
{ 204
} 204
| 214
[ 215
] 216
% 256
\ 735
< 940

940

- 998
X 20631
$


The second example is from recent one-page piece in absolute mode.
The surprise here is that there are only about 2 octave marks per measure.
While that's twice as many as for relative, it's still only one extra character
per measure:

$ ly-chars mypubs/lagrima-duo-2103/lagrima-duo.ly
In a file of 55 measure marks, 338 lines, 10634 characters and 0 \relatives ...
octave marks (,') are 2.1 per measure mark, 0.3 per line, 1.1 percent of file.

Here's a count of selected characters (X represents all others):
, 32
[ 33
] 33
_ 35
) 49
( 49
| 55
^ 63
' 85
# 86
% 89
{ 123
} 123
< 130

130

= 156
- 176
\ 351
X 8836
$

So that's just for my work.  To see an average over other people's work,
here are analogous runs over all the 455 Beethoven files in mutopia, first
on the ones that use relative (at least once) and then those that don't.

$ cd /f/MutopiaProject/ftp/BeethovenLv
$ ly-chars `find -type f -name '*.ly' -exec grep -q relative '{}' \; -print `
In 99 files of 11756 measure marks, 28834 lines, 752704 characters and 158 
\relatives ...
octave marks (,') are 1.6 per measure mark, 0.7 per line, 2.6 percent of file.

Here's a count of selected characters (X represents all others):
^ 841
= 1296
_ 1863
# 2374
{ 3327
} 3327
[ 4839
] 4842
) 8804
( 8805
% 8853
' 9625
, 9675
| 11756

11848

< 11890
- 14235
\ 18339
X 616165
$
$ ly-chars `find -type f -name '*.ly' ! -exec grep -q relative '{}' \; -print `
In 356 files of 1350 measure marks, 33854 lines, 2139195 characters and 0 
\relatives ...
octave marks (,') are 205.5 per measure mark, 8.2 per line, 13.0 percent of 
file.

Here's a count of selected characters (X represents all others):
| 1350
% 2059
^ 2288
_ 2703
# 3533
- 4021
= 4519
{ 12864
} 12864
[ 15002
] 15033
) 16376
( 16406
, 25594
< 41312

41340

\ 69817
' 251807
X 1600307


Contrary to my personal experience, the above results show a 5 fold increase
in octave marks for absolute files (13.0 percent) vs relative (2.6 percent).
The authors using absolute are also much less likely to use measure marks
so ignore that number.  And who knows about one measure per line.

Perhaps the huge number of octave marks in the absolute files could be
reduced by judicious local use of \transpose.

Since I've already taken up so much space, I may as well include perl script:
$ cat ly-chars.pl
   $relatives = 0;
   $files = @ARGV;
   while (<>) {
  #/\|/ or 

Re: Added ninth chord (symbol)

[Brett Duncan]

On 30/04/2016 8:24 am, Henry Law wrote:

On 29/04/16 22:20, Brett Duncan wrote:

You can also use "c1:5.9", which just adds the 9th over the basic triad.


I coded g2:5.9 in chordmode and got G9, which isn't the right chord. 
I'm pursuing pop-chords.ly.


As Matthew said, you will need to override how the chord name is 
displayed, but this (or Matthew's suggestion) at least constructs a 
chord with the right notes.


Brett
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Re: Added ninth chord (symbol)

[Henry Law]

On 29/04/16 22:20, Brett Duncan wrote:

You can also use "c1:5.9", which just adds the 9th over the basic triad.


I coded g2:5.9 in chordmode and got G9, which isn't the right chord. 
I'm pursuing pop-chords.ly.


--

Henry LawManchester, England

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Re: Replying to posts

[Gianmaria Lari]

My guess is that a large part of Lilypond mailing list messages deals
with issues related to graphic output (lilypond is a sort of
typesetting system, isn't it?)
If this is correct I think emails would take advantage of inline
images because these elements can make more clear messages.

Attaching images at the end of messages is less effective for the
person that writes the msg. and for the person that reads the message.
When I attach an image to a message, then I need to refer the image
using the file name; when you have multiple attachment this is not
easy and error prone.  On the other side, the reader of the message
has to open each image and be sure to watch the correct one while read
the text.
Using inline images you see the image exactly where you discuss it,
you don't need to refer it by a file name. If you check the following
link you will see an example of what I'm saying (I didn't know yet it
was a bad practice!):
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/music-patterns-and-octave-td188281.html#a188313

The same thing is valid for the inline code vs attaching source code.

Text formatting probably it is a bit less important. I use it with
parsimony but it give me the possibility to better highlight the
important part of the message etc. etc. When I cannot use it I use
ascii symbol (_ * etc).

Obviously this is what I personally consider improving the quality of
the message for the specific case of the Lilypond ML. In other context
the needs are different and I could prefer more primitive instruments.

So, *if* available technology gives us the possibility to use inline
images etc. I would definitely go for it.

* * *

David Linn has written:

[...]
> 3) My personal choice of MUA is Heirloom mailx (formerly nail), an enhanced
> version of the Berkeley mail(1) program.  That said, the list manangement
> mail for the Lilypond lists goes to Gmail, precisely so that I am able to
> deal with the ... variety of formats people send to the Lilypond lists.

uhmm. what David Linn does with the ML looks very reasonable to
me. It is easy to do and it give him the possibility to handles all
the formats variety.

* * *

Even if I believe the previous mentioned things will improve the
quality of the conversations, I'm very happy of the ml like it is now.
There are a lot of real experts helping people to solve issues and
explaining things. The fact that they, the experts, use primitive
email instruments and force me to do the same is the lesser evil
:))
g.




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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

On 29 April 2016 at 22:06, David Bellows  wrote:
>. I know a lot of people avoid Reddit, and for very good reasons,

I think it's almost as bad a time-sink as TVTropes. Actually, Stack
sites can be too.

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Re: Added ninth chord (symbol)

[Brett Duncan]

On 30/04/2016 3:58 am, msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Henry Law wrote:

In a lead sheet I want to use the chord which I call an "added ninth". Using
the key of C as an example, I want the chord C-E-G-D: a plain major triad with
the ninth added on top.

Try "c1:9^7"
That is:  dominant ninth, delete the seventh.

I don't know how the chord *name* will display, but that can be adjusted
with overrides; this will at least get the notes right.


You can also use "c1:5.9", which just adds the 9th over the basic triad.
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Re: Replying to posts

[David Bellows]

And just to let people know, if anyone does want to carry on a massive
meta-discussion/RFC in a slightly more manageable form, there is a
subreddit devoted to Lilypond (which I happen to be the moderator
for): http://www.reddit.com/r/lilypond. We'd be totally fine with
having that, or any, kind of discussion there. I know a lot of people
avoid Reddit, and for very good reasons, I'm just throwing that option
out there.

On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 10:00 AM, David Linn  wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 11:14 PM Andrew Bernard 
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Werner,
>>
>> On 29 April 2016 at 14:05, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
>> >
>> >> As far as I know this particular list does not have a list owner,
>> >> and there are no published rules.
>> >
>> > Of course there is a list owner.
>>
>> Who, may one ask? Why are they taking no interest in this extensive
>> discussion?
>
>
> Perhaps because the "extensive discussion"  has occurred while my
> non-working hours are spent preparing to move from one location to another.
>
> For the record:
>
> 1) I am not David Kastrup, I am David Linn.  (I do not live in Europe, I
> live in the southeastern part of the United States of America).
>
> 2) I am a dinosaur and find use of HTML, top posting, and gratuitous
> assumptions about available bandwidth annoying.  I have strong views about
> appropriate use of mailing lists but choose not to impose them on you.
>
> 3) My personal choice of MUA is Heirloom mailx (formerly nail), an enhanced
> version of the Berkeley mail(1) program.  That said, the list manangement
> mail for the Lilypond lists goes to Gmail, precisely so that I am able to
> deal with the ... variety of formats people send to the Lilypond lists.
>
> 4) As David K. suggested, the simple way to get to the administrator of a
> GNU mailing list is to send mail to -owner.  Further, if you
> visit http://lists.gnu.org/ and follow the listinfo link, or just look at
> the footer of every message from both the regular list and the digest list,
> you'll find
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
> which lists my address at the bottom of the page.
>
> 5) Personal attacks against a list administrator (such as the ones launched
> against me for the work I done on this list and its cousins and their
> predecessors) make that administrator unlikely to do more than the absolute
> minimum to maintain a list.
>
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Re: Choice of pitch input mode

[Caio Giovaneti de Barros]

 On 4/29/16 7:27 AM, "Carl Sorensen"  wrote:

About a year ago, Kieren indicated that he has decided to go completely
absolute mode, even to the point
of redoing his historic code:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-04/msg00846.html


I was not aware of Kieren's opinion, but after my last work on Lilypond 
I'm arriving at almost the same conclusion. At least for music that 
works outside the tonal (and in a way also modal) paradigm of pitch 
ranges and intervals it is preferable to use absolute mode almost 
always. What a pain it is to write, say, a line by Webern in relative 
mode. And if you make a mistake along the way (and you will make it) you 
have to be prepared to hunt the right note to correct the octave next. 
At least with Frescobaldi you can click on the pdf viewer and it puts 
your cursor directly where you want, which is awesome.




I find his arguments interesting.  And if I were engraving things as
complex as his, I might also move to absolute.

But I am working on simple, short, pieces.  The longest I have done to
this point is about 8 pages.
For my use case, the convenience of less typing (and to be fair, not
having to worry about the octave
I'm using) overrides the inconvenience of the occasional octave mistake.

So I use relative.


I do believe that at the end this is a choice the engraver has to make 
based on the type of music she or he is working with. Many decisions in 
code organization comes down to convenience, your habits and comfort, 
but just like music engraving in general there are good practices to 
make your work more productive, and if you need to be read and 
understood by others, this is even more critical.


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Re: Choice of pitch input mode

[Carl Sorensen]

Putting it on the list (my mistake leaving it off earlier).

On 4/29/16 7:27 AM, "Carl Sorensen"  wrote:

>On 4/29/16 5:58 AM, "Matt Hood"  wrote:
>
>
>>I¹ve got a non-technical question regarding mode of pitch input. What
>>does everyone prefer? Relative, absolute, or a mix of both?
>
>About a year ago, Kieren indicated that he has decided to go completely
>absolute mode, even to the point
>of redoing his historic code:
>
>https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-04/msg00846.html
>
>
>I find his arguments interesting.  And if I were engraving things as
>complex as his, I might also move to absolute.
>
>But I am working on simple, short, pieces.  The longest I have done to
>this point is about 8 pages.
>For my use case, the convenience of less typing (and to be fair, not
>having to worry about the octave
>I'm using) overrides the inconvenience of the occasional octave mistake.
>
>So I use relative.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Carl
>

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Re: Added ninth chord (symbol)

[Malte Meyn]

Am 29.04.2016 um 19:22 schrieb Henry Law:

"add9" is not a valid chord designator in Lilypond, as far as I can see.
  I can ask for "9" or "maj9" or "sus2" but none of these is my chord:


LilyPond knows the difference between 9 and add9 but doesn’t display it 
by default.



Am I stuck?  I'm hoping there is some magic somewhere to help.


The magic is called additionalPitchPrefix. It can be found f. e. at 
section 2.7.2 of the Notation Reference. The following code prints “C9 
C9 Cadd9 C9”.


%
\version "2.18.2"

\new ChordNames {
  
  
  \set additionalPitchPrefix = "add"
  
  
}
%

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Re: Added ninth chord (symbol)

[Henry Law]

On 29/04/16 18:37, Tim McNamara wrote:

There is a file floating around called pop-chord.ly or pop-chords.ly that has a 
lot of these kinds of exceptions already done.  You use the \include command to 
utilize it; how to do that is also in the manual.


Aha ... that's all I need.  I'm good at manuals. (In fact I googled for 
"pop-chords.ly" and got the hits I need).


Thank you.  Were you typing your reply before I sent my question?

--

Henry LawManchester, England

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Re: Added ninth chord (symbol)

[mskala]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Henry Law wrote:
> In a lead sheet I want to use the chord which I call an "added ninth". Using
> the key of C as an example, I want the chord C-E-G-D: a plain major triad with
> the ninth added on top.

Try "c1:9^7"
That is:  dominant ninth, delete the seventh.

I don't know how the chord *name* will display, but that can be adjusted
with overrides; this will at least get the notes right.

-- 
Matthew Skala
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before principles.
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/

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Re: Added ninth chord (symbol)

[Tim McNamara]

> On Apr 29, 2016, at 12:22 PM, Henry Law  wrote:
> 
> I've searched the archives and the web generally; all that I have found on 
> this subject leads me to believe that the facility I need is not there, which 
> is perplexing since it's not particularly esoteric.  Can someone either 
> confirm my understanding or put me right?  (I'm using 2.18.2 on a 
> Debian-based system).
> 
> In a lead sheet I want to use the chord which I call an "added ninth". Using 
> the key of C as an example, I want the chord C-E-G-D: a plain major triad 
> with the ninth added on top.
> 
> "add9" is not a valid chord designator in Lilypond, as far as I can see.  I 
> can ask for "9" or "maj9" or "sus2" but none of these is my chord:
> 
> The ninth is a dominant ninth: C-E-G-Bb-D  Quite a different animal.
> Major ninth is C-E-G-B-D
> Sus2 is C-D-G, where the third is (temporarily, usually) /replaced/ by the 
> second.
> 
> Am I stuck?  I'm hoping there is some magic somewhere to help.

No magic as such but the answer is baked into LilyPond.  You need to create a 
chord exception; the instructions are somewhere in the LilyPond manual.  I am 
away from my laptop with all my LP stuff on it so I can't direct more 
specifically.  The exception can be formulated to produce Cadd9 as the 
chordname easily.  Just what you're looking for.

There is a file floating around called pop-chord.ly or pop-chords.ly that has a 
lot of these kinds of exceptions already done.  You use the \include command to 
utilize it; how to do that is also in the manual.  The file ought to be in the 
snippet repository, I would think.

Tim

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Added ninth chord (symbol)

[Henry Law]

I've searched the archives and the web generally; all that I have found 
on this subject leads me to believe that the facility I need is not 
there, which is perplexing since it's not particularly esoteric.  Can 
someone either confirm my understanding or put me right?  (I'm using 
2.18.2 on a Debian-based system).


In a lead sheet I want to use the chord which I call an "added ninth". 
Using the key of C as an example, I want the chord C-E-G-D: a plain 
major triad with the ninth added on top.


"add9" is not a valid chord designator in Lilypond, as far as I can see. 
 I can ask for "9" or "maj9" or "sus2" but none of these is my chord:


The ninth is a dominant ninth: C-E-G-Bb-D  Quite a different animal.
Major ninth is C-E-G-B-D
Sus2 is C-D-G, where the third is (temporarily, usually) /replaced/ by 
the second.


Am I stuck?  I'm hoping there is some magic somewhere to help.

--

Henry LawManchester, England

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Fwd: Replying to posts

[David Linn]

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 11:14 PM Andrew Bernard 
wrote:

> Hi Werner,
>
> On 29 April 2016 at 14:05, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
> >
> >> As far as I know this particular list does not have a list owner,
> >> and there are no published rules.
> >
> > Of course there is a list owner.
>
> Who, may one ask? Why are they taking no interest in this extensive
> discussion?
>

Perhaps because the "extensive discussion"  has occurred while my
non-working hours are spent preparing to move from one location to another.

For the record:

1) I am not David Kastrup, I am David Linn.  (I do not live in Europe, I
live in the southeastern part of the United States of America).

2) I am a dinosaur and find use of HTML, top posting, and gratuitous
assumptions about available bandwidth annoying.  I have strong views about
appropriate use of mailing lists but choose not to impose them on you.

3) My personal choice of MUA is Heirloom mailx (formerly nail), an enhanced
version of the Berkeley mail(1) program.  That said, the list manangement
mail for the Lilypond lists goes to Gmail, precisely so that I am able to
deal with the ... variety of formats people send to the Lilypond lists.

4) As David K. suggested, the simple way to get to the administrator of a
GNU mailing list is to send mail to -owner.  Further, if you
visit http://lists.gnu.org/ and follow the listinfo link, or just look at
the footer of every message from both the regular list and the digest list,
you'll find

https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

which lists my address at the bottom of the page.

5) Personal attacks against a list administrator (such as the ones launched
against me for the work I done on this list and its cousins and their
predecessors) make that administrator unlikely to do more than the absolute
minimum to maintain a list.
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Re: Replying to posts

[Noeck]

Links to the discussion in 2014 have already been posted.

For reference, the discussion from 2012 is here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2012-11/msg00018.html

Joram

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Re: Replying to posts

[Noeck]

Am 29.04.2016 um 12:20 schrieb Andrew Bernard:
> Since this is the longest thread in recent memory ... I wonder if we should 
> consider
> using some forum type software for lilypond matters?

Mentioning that this is an extraordinarily long thread and then starting
a new subject, which led to very long threads at least twice in the
past, contains some irony :)

Best,
Joram

PS: I said enough on this topic, when I startet it back then...

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Re: Choice of pitch input mode

[Ralph Palmer]

On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 7:58 AM, Matt Hood  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I’ve got a non-technical question regarding mode of pitch input. What does
> everyone prefer? Relative, absolute, or a mix of both?
>

I always use relative.


> I’ve always stuck to relative, but I feel like I’ve hit a brick wall as
> far as fluency goes. I’m still quite slow at it, and I spend half of my
> time trying to work out whether I need to change octave or not - usually
> getting it wrong, and watching half of a page disappear into ledger lines.


Fluency should come with use. I still make mistakes, but mine often come
from copy and paste. That being said, it's usually not too hard to figure
out where the mistake occurred.


> Add in temporary polyphonic passages, chords, etc, and it all just becomes
> an exercise in trial and error. Any tips for keeping control?
>

Only tip : on chords, look first at the first note in each chord; those are
the notes that determine the octave. The following notes within the chord
are related *only* to the preceding note within that chord. So, I make sure
the first note of a chord is correctly related to the preceding note (the
last one before the chord) or the *first* note of the preceding chord.

Happy and rewarding engraving to you,

Ralph

-- 
Ralph Palmer
Brattleboro, VT
USA
palmer.r.vio...@gmail.com
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Re: Choice of pitch input mode

[Malte Meyn]

Am 29.04.2016 um 13:58 schrieb Matt Hood:

What does everyone prefer? Relative, absolute, or a mix of both?


I always use \relative without reference pitch because reference pitches 
confused me every single time I used them. In RhythmicStaffs I use only 
durations without pitch (possible in 2.19).



Add in temporary polyphonic passages, chords, etc, and it all just becomes an 
exercise in trial and error. Any tips for keeping control?


I use LilyPond for composing and arranging so I often have to insert 
notes before others. This could change the following notes. But there is 
simple solution (which also is suitable for polyphonic music): Use 
octave checks.


\relative {
  c'4 d e f
  s1*3 % this will be filled in the future
  g=''8 a b g c2
}

This generates warnings but I ignore them until the piece is finished; 
only then I add , and ' before the =.


Concerning chords: I always input the pitches in the same order (upwards 
or downwards but not both). Whether upwards or downwards depends on 
where some sort of melody is but you could also stick to one single 
direction.


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Re: Replying to posts

[Malte Meyn]

Am 29.04.2016 um 15:50 schrieb Alexander Kobel:

There's one single reason why I sometimes prefer even small code pieces
in attachments, despite the fact that I usually like to read them
inline: If there is a lone ">>" (which happens quite often in LilyPond
code, for obvious reasons), it messes up with many mail client's idea of
what a quote is.


Thunderbird sees a quote in a quote here, for example. But if you select 
and copy the text, this is copied as >> so no problem here ;) Maybe 
other clients ‘think’ the same way?


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Re: Replying to posts

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> . Use the `reply-to-all' button so that the discussion stays on the
>>   list.  It is not helpful if answers are suddenly sent to
>>   individuals only.  Additionally, it helps to properly build up
>>   e-mail threads.
> 
> Remove all non-list addresses from the reply list.

No.  Sometimes, people write to the list who aren't subscribed, and
the list owner (or some automatic algorithm) accepts the mail; in such
cases the OP e-mail address should stay.  This is probably one of the
most trivial tasks an e-mail program should be able to handle, namely
to display only one copy if there are multiple instances.

I sometimes even insert a list member's e-mail address to the `CC' or
`To' field to indicate that he or she is the primary recipient.

>>   . Use hard line breaks to have a line length of less than 80
>> characters.
>>   . Avoid tab characters.
> 
> In LilyPond source, ...

No, in e-mail also.  IMHO, it greatly enhances readability if all
lines of an e-mail are short, and if there are no tabs.


Werner

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Re: Replying to posts

[Alexander Kobel]

On 2016-04-29 12:30, Urs Liska wrote:

Am 29.04.2016 um 12:28 schrieb Federico Bruni:

Il giorno ven 29 apr 2016 alle 10:50, Simon Albrecht
 ha scritto:

On 29.04.2016 10:11, Johan Vromans wrote:



. Provide a minimal working example (or a minimal not-working
  example).  The stress lies on *minimal*.  This shows us that you
  have at least tried to look into the manual before asking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_Working_Example

Do not include the example in the text, but attach it to the message.


That’s not always sensible or necessary. If the e-mail is plain text
anyway, then there’s little problem with inline code.


I think that inline minimal examples are much better:

- you can easily comment its contents in the reply
- in the archives they appear immediately and you can read them
quickly instead of downloading .bin files



I think this needs some clarification:

Inserting *code* examples within the text is usually very good for
communication. I think the suggested ban on inline examples referred to
*images*


There's one single reason why I sometimes prefer even small code pieces 
in attachments, despite the fact that I usually like to read them 
inline: If there is a lone ">>" (which happens quite often in LilyPond 
code, for obvious reasons), it messes up with many mail client's idea of 
what a quote is. I know, it's well-specified that such a construct can 
be escaped with whitespace at the beginning of the line, but not every 
client implements that.


So my relaxed suggestion is: feel free to write small code pieces 
inline, but if you do so, place no ">>" on lines of themselves. As if 
anyone (including myself) were to remember that...



Best,
Alexander

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Re: Choice of pitch input mode

[Anthonys Lists]

On 29/04/2016 12:58, Matt Hood wrote:

Hi all,

I’ve got a non-technical question regarding mode of pitch input. What does 
everyone prefer? Relative, absolute, or a mix of both?


Relative. Every time. Alhough I'm sure other people will disagree with 
me :-)


I’ve always stuck to relative, but I feel like I’ve hit a brick wall as far as 
fluency goes. I’m still quite slow at it, and I spend half of my time trying to 
work out whether I need to change octave or not - usually getting it wrong, and 
watching half of a page disappear into ledger lines.


The problem isn't applying the rule (the rule is easy). The problem is 
*remembering* to apply the rule. If it's a fourth away or less then no 
modifier is needed. I actually find it more effort keeping note 
*lengths* accurate.



  Add in temporary polyphonic passages, chords, etc, and it all just becomes an 
exercise in trial and error. Any tips for keeping control?


Mmmm. I don't tend to do chords ... I can see where that makes life 
difficult ... I think if I had to do a lot of chords I probably would 
switch to absolute. But for entering voices - and even when combining 
them - to me relative just seems so much simpler.




Any anecdotes or mildly related musings are welcome, I feel like it would be 
good to facilitate a general discussion.



Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Embedding eps over staff lines and music as graphical notation

[Caio Giovaneti de Barros]

I think I solved it. The trick was removing the the vertical-skylines 
property:


impMrkp =
%\tweak staff-padding #'() %% not sure if needed
%\tweak staff-padding #'()
\tweak outside-staff-priority #'()
\tweak layer #-30
\tweak Y-offset #-3
\tweak vertical-skylines #'()
-\markup { \hspace #3 \vcenter \epsfile #X #25 #"improv.eps" }

<<
  \new Staff = "UP" {
\relative c''' {
  \stemDown
  \textLengthOn b32[ \impMrkp \change Staff = "DOWN" b,,]
}
  }
  \new Staff = "DOWN" {
\relative c''' {
  s16
}
  }
>>

Em 29-04-2016 10:27, Caio Giovaneti de Barros escreveu:

Well, actually... Now I have another problem I didn't realize before.
In the piece I'm actually engraving the dots must cross staves and in 
the solution below the eps does ignore the staff above, but avoids 
collision with the staff below. Any suggestions?


\version "2.19.35"

impMrkp =
%\tweak staff-padding #'() %% not sure if needed
\tweak staff-padding #'()
\tweak outside-staff-priority #'()
\tweak layer #-30
\tweak Y-offset #'()
-\markup { \hspace #3 \vcenter \epsfile #X #25 #"improv.eps" }

<<
  \new Staff = "UP" {
\relative c''' {
  \stemDown
  \textLengthOn b32[ \impMrkp \change Staff = "DOWN" b,,]
}
  }
  \new Staff = "DOWN" {
\relative c''' {
  s16
}
  }
>>




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Re: Embedding eps over staff lines and music as graphical notation

[Caio Giovaneti de Barros]

Well, actually... Now I have another problem I didn't realize before.
In the piece I'm actually engraving the dots must cross staves and in 
the solution below the eps does ignore the staff above, but avoids 
collision with the staff below. Any suggestions?


\version "2.19.35"

impMrkp =
%\tweak staff-padding #'() %% not sure if needed
\tweak staff-padding #'()
\tweak outside-staff-priority #'()
\tweak layer #-30
\tweak Y-offset #'()
-\markup { \hspace #3 \vcenter \epsfile #X #25 #"improv.eps" }

<<
  \new Staff = "UP" {
\relative c''' {
  \stemDown
  \textLengthOn b32[ \impMrkp \change Staff = "DOWN" b,,]
}
  }
  \new Staff = "DOWN" {
\relative c''' {
  s16
}
  }
>>


Em 29-04-2016 10:01, Caio Giovaneti de Barros escreveu:



Em 28-04-2016 18:01, Thomas Morley escreveu:
2016-04-28 15:35 GMT+02:00 Caio Giovaneti de Barros 
:

How can I insert an EPS file over the staff lines, ignoring collisions?


Is the below of some help?

\version "2.19.35"

impMrkp =
  %\tweak staff-padding #'() %% not sure if needed
  \tweak staff-padding #'()
  \tweak outside-staff-priority #'()
  \tweak layer #-30
  \tweak Y-offset #'()
  -\markup { \hspace #3 \vcenter \epsfile #X #25 #"improv.eps" }

\relative c''' {
   \textLengthOn b32[ \impMrkp b,,]
}
Yes, that did the trick. Thank you! I was not aware of \textLengthOn. 
Awesome.


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Re: Embedding eps over staff lines and music as graphical notation

[Caio Giovaneti de Barros]

Em 28-04-2016 18:01, Thomas Morley escreveu:

2016-04-28 15:35 GMT+02:00 Caio Giovaneti de Barros :

How can I insert an EPS file over the staff lines, ignoring collisions?


Is the below of some help?

\version "2.19.35"

impMrkp =
  %\tweak staff-padding #'() %% not sure if needed
  \tweak staff-padding #'()
  \tweak outside-staff-priority #'()
  \tweak layer #-30
  \tweak Y-offset #'()
  -\markup { \hspace #3 \vcenter \epsfile #X #25 #"improv.eps" }

\relative c''' {
   \textLengthOn b32[ \impMrkp b,,]
}
Yes, that did the trick. Thank you! I was not aware of \textLengthOn. 
Awesome.


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Re: Replying to posts

[Federico Bruni]

Il giorno ven 29 apr 2016 alle 12:59, Johan Vromans 
 ha scritto:
 There's some Lilypond questions on the tex StackExchange forum, and 
you'll

 find some on the StackOverflow too.


I have a very strong preference for one single place where all 
information

lives. And I'm very happy with this mailing list.


I think that everybody should decide freely. I feel the same that was 
expressed here:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2014-12/msg00413.html



The last time I tried to ask a question on StackWhatever I was 
(un)kindly
directed to another sub-StackWhatever, and then to another, and to 
another,

so I just gave up.


What happened once doesn't mean anything. Most of people like Q 
sites. Personally I think that they are way more effective than mailing 
lists for helping and get help.


Anyway, one might also argue about the idea of using some third-party 
service. If some lilypond user set up a nice forum (as for example¹) I 
would be able to follow only what I'm interested in. Right now I delete 
90% of emails in this list without even reading them. But filtering is 
time consuming and annoying and I'll have to quit this list sooner or 
later.


You must be very motivated and involved to stay in an medium/high 
volume mailing list like this one. On the other hand Q allows more 
participation from "free riders" or "seldom helpers".


¹ https://discuss.gohugo.io/




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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

On 29 April 2016 at 11:59, Johan Vromans  wrote:
>
> I have a very strong preference for one single place where all information
> lives. And I'm very happy with this mailing list.

Yes, although I personally find StackOverflow a far better way of
asking, answering and recalling questions, there's a heap of history
here that's very valuable.

> The last time I tried to ask a question on StackWhatever I was (un)kindly
> directed to another sub-StackWhatever, and then to another, and to another,
> so I just gave up.

Well, From reading StackOverflow a **lot** for work purposes, that's
usually because the question's in the wrong forum (or at least someone
thinks it is).

One downside to SO is that there are people who take great pleasure in
closing questions that "aren't a proper question", and so on. It's
better than the traditional kind of forum for coding questions (which
is 95% of this list). Whether it's better than a mailing list is a
different argument.

Whilst a Lilypond SO forum would be more publicly available than this
list, it wouldn't be as technically accessible to all concerned
(particularly the terminal window fans! :-) ).

However, I think it could only make Lilypond more accessible to the
general user. Does anyone actively object to the idea of having one?

cheers,

Chris

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Choice of pitch input mode

[Matt Hood]

Hi all,

I’ve got a non-technical question regarding mode of pitch input. What does 
everyone prefer? Relative, absolute, or a mix of both? 

I’ve always stuck to relative, but I feel like I’ve hit a brick wall as far as 
fluency goes. I’m still quite slow at it, and I spend half of my time trying to 
work out whether I need to change octave or not - usually getting it wrong, and 
watching half of a page disappear into ledger lines. Add in temporary 
polyphonic passages, chords, etc, and it all just becomes an exercise in trial 
and error. Any tips for keeping control?

Any anecdotes or mildly related musings are welcome, I feel like it would be 
good to facilitate a general discussion.

Cheers,
Matt.
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Re: Replying to posts

[Alberto Simões]

On 29/04/2016 11:59, Johan Vromans wrote:

>There's some Lilypond questions on the tex StackExchange forum, and you'll
>find some on the StackOverflow too.

I have a very strong preference for one single place where all information
lives. And I'm very happy with this mailing list.

+1 for good old mailing lists.
ambs
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Re: Replying to posts

[Johan Vromans]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 11:45:12 +0100
Chris Yate  wrote:

> There's some Lilypond questions on the tex StackExchange forum, and you'll
> find some on the StackOverflow too. 

I have a very strong preference for one single place where all information
lives. And I'm very happy with this mailing list.

The last time I tried to ask a question on StackWhatever I was (un)kindly
directed to another sub-StackWhatever, and then to another, and to another,
so I just gave up.

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Re: Replying to posts

[Johan Vromans]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:20:12 +1000
Andrew Bernard  wrote:

> > ... but since [David] is the list owner he's to decide.  
> 
> Is he? We do not know.

An other branch of this discussion tree indicates so.

> Werner’s guidelines are only one personal view and suggestion, and
> they have not been ‘voted on’ or necessarily accepted yet.

Since David is the one doing (most of) the hard work, I assign him
superpowers to unilaterally decide.

> To put my money where my mouth is I am prepared to make a draft
> recommendation for people to examine. An RFC, no less. :-)

That is, of course, always a good idea. 

-- Johan

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Re: Replying to posts

[Federico Bruni]

Il giorno ven 29 apr 2016 alle 12:20, Andrew Bernard 
 ha scritto:

I wonder if we should consider
using some forum type software for lilypond matters? The mailing list
has a flat structure, and I have long thought that we ought to have a
separate area for Scheme topics, Guile topics, installation issues,
engraving questions, and so on and so forth. Such sub specialities
which are not of interest to all users could have their own forum
topic area. Not a totally crazy idea. And dear me people could use
Markdown to format HTML posts. The forum could have the forum
guidelines posted permanently as per normal forum software. As to the
standard list question who would do the work, I would be happy to.


If you are thinking about using tools like stackexchange, this has been 
discussed before several times. See for example:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2014-12/msg00404.html




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Re: Replying to posts

[Chris Yate]

On 29 April 2016 at 11:20, Andrew Bernard  wrote:
>
> Since this is the longest thread in recent memory - interesting
> because it is a meta-thread really - I wonder if we should consider
> using some forum type software for lilypond matters?

There's some Lilypond questions on the tex StackExchange forum, and you'll
find some on the StackOverflow too. But that is a *very* good
alternative medium for what we do here. It's also easily searchable
when you're looking for answers (better than the mailing lists).

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Re: Replying to posts

[Johan Vromans]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:30:25 +0200
Urs Liska  wrote:

> I think this needs some clarification:
> 
> Inserting *code* examples within the text is usually very good for
> communication. I think the suggested ban on inline examples referred to
> *images*

Too often I encounter code samples in mail bodies that have been mangled by
mailers. Sending sources as attachment is (usually) fail safe.

Of course, one can cite parts of the code samples in the message to clarify
the problems.

-- Johan

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Re: Replying to posts

[Urs Liska]

Am 29.04.2016 um 12:28 schrieb Federico Bruni:
> Il giorno ven 29 apr 2016 alle 10:50, Simon Albrecht
>  ha scritto:
>> On 29.04.2016 10:11, Johan Vromans wrote:
>> >
>> >>. Provide a minimal working example (or a minimal not-working
>> >>  example).  The stress lies on *minimal*.  This shows us that you
>> >>  have at least tried to look into the manual before asking.
>> >>
>> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_Working_Example
>> > Do not include the example in the text, but attach it to the message.
>>
>> That’s not always sensible or necessary. If the e-mail is plain text
>> anyway, then there’s little problem with inline code.
>
> I think that inline minimal examples are much better:
>
> - you can easily comment its contents in the reply
> - in the archives they appear immediately and you can read them
> quickly instead of downloading .bin files
>

I think this needs some clarification:

Inserting *code* examples within the text is usually very good for
communication. I think the suggested ban on inline examples referred to
*images*

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Re: Replying to posts

[Federico Bruni]

Il giorno ven 29 apr 2016 alle 10:50, Simon Albrecht 
 ha scritto:

On 29.04.2016 10:11, Johan Vromans wrote:
>
>>. Provide a minimal working example (or a minimal not-working
>>  example).  The stress lies on *minimal*.  This shows us that 
you

>>  have at least tried to look into the manual before asking.
>>
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_Working_Example
> Do not include the example in the text, but attach it to the 
message.


That’s not always sensible or necessary. If the e-mail is plain text
anyway, then there’s little problem with inline code.


I think that inline minimal examples are much better:

- you can easily comment its contents in the reply
- in the archives they appear immediately and you can read them quickly 
instead of downloading .bin files





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Re: Replying to posts

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Johan,

On 29 April 2016 at 18:11, Johan Vromans  wrote:

> Well done. Now if David would be so kind to add this as the new subcribers
> welcome message. I have some remarks, but since he is the list owner he's
> to decide.

Is he? We do not know.

> Well done, Werner!
>

Werner’s guidelines are only one personal view and suggestion, and
they have not been ‘voted on’ or necessarily accepted yet. I for one
think a blend of the Debian mailing lists code of conduct, with
additions for lilypond specifics such as MWE’s, non-inline image
posting, what to do with code fragments, how to reply to digests and
so on is in order.

To put my money where my mouth is I am prepared to make a draft
recommendation for people to examine. An RFC, no less. :-)

Since this is the longest thread in recent memory - interesting
because it is a meta-thread really - I wonder if we should consider
using some forum type software for lilypond matters? The mailing list
has a flat structure, and I have long thought that we ought to have a
separate area for Scheme topics, Guile topics, installation issues,
engraving questions, and so on and so forth. Such sub specialities
which are not of interest to all users could have their own forum
topic area. Not a totally crazy idea. And dear me people could use
Markdown to format HTML posts. The forum could have the forum
guidelines posted permanently as per normal forum software. As to the
standard list question who would do the work, I would be happy to.

Andrew

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Re: Replying to posts

[Urs Liska]

Am 29.04.2016 um 10:11 schrieb Johan Vromans:
>>   . Use the `reply-to-all' button so that the discussion stays on the
>> > list.  It is not helpful if answers are suddenly sent to
>> > individuals only.  Additionally, it helps to properly build up
>> > e-mail threads.
> Remove all non-list addresses from the reply list.
>
Or use the 'reply-to-list' function if your email client supports it.
That will reply *only* to the list
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Re: Replying to posts

[Simon Albrecht]

On 29.04.2016 10:11, Johan Vromans wrote:



   . Provide a minimal working example (or a minimal not-working
 example).  The stress lies on *minimal*.  This shows us that you
 have at least tried to look into the manual before asking.

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_Working_Example

Do not include the example in the text, but attach it to the message.


That’s not always sensible or necessary. If the e-mail is plain text 
anyway, then there’s little problem with inline code.


Best, Simon

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Re: Replying to posts

[Michael Hendry]

> On 29 Apr 2016, at 06:26, Tim McNamara  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 28, 2016, at 11:45 PM, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> Reading your admonition to "don't use top-posting," I tried to
>>> locate the command in Outlook 2013 that sets this option as default.
>> 
>> What about this?
>> 
>> http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/
>> 
>> I'm not an outlook user, but this looks quite promising (and is
>> actively maintained)!
> 
> This is or used to be available for Mac as well, although the Mac Mail.app 
> now has settings to address most of this without adding a plug-in.  QuoteFix 
> used to break some other things on the Mac.

I use Quotefix on my Mac (El Capitan) and haven’t yet found out how to get Mac 
Mail to do the same magic - please tell me how to do it.

I don’t think there’s an equivalent for iPads and iPhones, which are part of 
the top-posting include-everything conspiracy…

Michael


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Re: Replying to posts

[David Kastrup]

Werner LEMBERG  writes:

> [David, please have a look to this e-mail.]
>
>
>> > Of course there is a list owner.
>>
>> Who, may one ask?  Why are they taking no interest in this extensive
>> discussion?
>
> Ah, bad wording of mine.  `List owner' is too big a word; the list was
> automatically created for the lilypond team by the Savannah people;
> there are only administrators who have access rights.  Looking into
>
>   https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/lilypond
>
> I think the following people have the right to manage e-mail list
> issues.
>
>   Jan Nieuwenhuizen
>   Han-Wen Nienhuys
>   Graham Percival
>   David Kastrup
>
> Jan, Han-Wen, and Graham are no longer active most of the time.  So we
> only have David.
>
> Hmm.  David, it's really only you who is active and has access to the
> mailing list as an administrator?

Mailing lists are administered separately from Savannah accounts as far
as I know.  No idea who is currently registered for that, probably
Graham.

Try sending a mail to lilypond-user-owner or something like that and see
who replies.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Replying to posts

[Johan Vromans]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 06:05:49 +0200 (CEST)
Werner LEMBERG  wrote:

> In general, the list netiquette is quite simple.  Here's a small,
> probably incomplete list.

Well done. Now if David would be so kind to add this as the new subcribers
welcome message. I have some remarks, but since he is the list owner he's
to decide.

>   . If you reply, properly cite to what you reply – and trim the
> e-mail so that everything you are not replying to gets removed.

Actually, this rule is broken many times more than the HTML rule :)

>   . Use the `reply-to-all' button so that the discussion stays on the
> list.  It is not helpful if answers are suddenly sent to
> individuals only.  Additionally, it helps to properly build up
> e-mail threads.

Remove all non-list addresses from the reply list.

>   . Provide a minimal working example (or a minimal not-working
> example).  The stress lies on *minimal*.  This shows us that you
> have at least tried to look into the manual before asking.
> 
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_Working_Example

Do not include the example in the text, but attach it to the message.

> Additionally, especially with lilypond, a picture often says more
> than thousand words, so it is incredibly helpful if you attach a
> small PNG image also – don't use the BMP image format, by the way!

Too strong.. "small PNG or JPG image also."

>   . Use hard line breaks to have a line length of less than 80
> characters.
>   . Avoid tab characters.

In LilyPond source, ...

Well done, Werner!

-- Johan

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