Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Il 24/08/2012 22:12, Davide Liessi ha scritto: The main meaning of estensore is something that extends something else (also in anatomy) which seems better, but still isn't perfect: a spanner _does not_ extend something over notes, it is _itself_ extended; however it could be acceptable, since one could think of the spanner as a tool extending _a mark_ over notes. I can see the difference but I think that the second interpretation works anyway. So in the end I am left with indicazione estesa (Gianluca D'Orazio, extended mark/indication) and oggetto esteso (Francisco Vila, objeto de extensión, extended object), that both have the right meaning in our context. The former is more precise, but the latter sounds better to my ear. I'd really like to have one word, because the word spanner is often used along with the actual object which spans and a three (or more) word expression would be quite heavy. Also I'd like to use a word which gives the idea of an action, as in english: spanner - something which spans So I would use estensore or keep it untranslated. What do you prefer? Thanks for the feedback! -- Federico ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Il 25/08/2012 23:23, Davide Liessi ha scritto: What you observed is part of the reasons because I think that indicazione estesa or oggetto esteso would be the best choices: despite the fact that these are two-word terms, they convey the exact concept we need to describe, so if one tries to guess what they are, chances are he gets the right meaning, in my opinion. Furthermore, I think that they look technical enough to suggest to read the manual. I'm not convinced :) Think about slur spanner: Indicazione estesa della legatura di portamento. It's too long and also not straightforward. And I believe that estensore looks more technical because it is not related at all with music notation, while someone may be lead to think that indicazione estesa is a notation concept instead of a lilypond concept. So in the end I am convinced that they satisfy all the requirements (accurate meaning, easy to guess, technical appearance) with the only disadvantage of being two-word expressions. I changed my mind also about the order of preference: I would choose indicazione estesa and keep oggetto esteso as a substitution. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
2012/8/27 Federico Bruni: Il 24/08/2012 22:12, Davide Liessi ha scritto: The main meaning of estensore is something that extends something else (also in anatomy) which seems better, but still isn't perfect: a spanner _does not_ extend something over notes, it is _itself_ extended; however it could be acceptable, since one could think of the spanner as a tool extending _a mark_ over notes. I can see the difference but I think that the second interpretation works anyway. That's the reason because I originally kept estensore as a possible (although not preferred) translation. Actually I am quite ambivalent towards estensore. Reading again my previous message I noticed I was categorically excluding also estensore along with the other single-word terms, which I don't think I meant; my objection was mainly about tensore and the main meaning of estensore, but I still thought that the second interpretation of estensore could be valid. I'd really like to have one word, because the word spanner is often used along with the actual object which spans and a three (or more) word expression would be quite heavy. Think about slur spanner: Indicazione estesa della legatura di portamento. It's too long and also not straightforward. You're right: expressions like that would be really heavy and rather unclear. Also I'd like to use a word which gives the idea of an action, as in english: spanner - something which spans And I believe that estensore looks more technical because it is not related at all with music notation, while someone may be lead to think that indicazione estesa is a notation concept instead of a lilypond concept. These also are good points. So I would use estensore or keep it untranslated. What do you prefer? Given what we all said, both indicazione estesa and oggetto esteso are unsuitable, so I agree that these are the options. In the end I prefer estensore: I think the advantage of having a translation is worth the risk that the translation could be slightly misleading (given the fact that the term would be explained in detail in the manuals). Thanks for the feedback! I've been using Lilypond for a couple of years and I think it really is an amazing software. I think that having a good translation of the manual is the best way to help spreading the use of Lilypond, so I am happy this whole discussion was useful. As a side note, unfortunately in this period I don't have much spare time, but in the future I really would like to actively help with the translation. Best wishes, Davide P.S. By the way, I just recalled another meaning of estensore, in a legal context: estensore di un documento, di un atto, di una sentenza, which means the person who actually writes an official document, a certificate, the judgements of a court. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Il 27/08/2012 11:55, Davide Liessi ha scritto: So I would use estensore or keep it untranslated. What do you prefer? Given what we all said, both indicazione estesa and oggetto esteso are unsuitable, so I agree that these are the options. In the end I prefer estensore: I think the advantage of having a translation is worth the risk that the translation could be slightly misleading (given the fact that the term would be explained in detail in the manuals). Agreed. Thanks for the feedback! I've been using Lilypond for a couple of years and I think it really is an amazing software. I think that having a good translation of the manual is the best way to help spreading the use of Lilypond, so I am happy this whole discussion was useful. As a side note, unfortunately in this period I don't have much spare time, but in the future I really would like to actively help with the translation. Great, just write me an email when you have time to help. I already have a precious proofreading help from Luca (who reads this mailing list but didn't join this discussion.. maybe it's in vacation), but of course more help is welcomed. The maintenance of translated files has recently made easier and I hope I'll speed up the translation of Notation Reference in the coming months. Ciao -- Federico ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Federico Bruni fedel...@gmail.com wrote: Dear italian users, do you have any good idea about how to translate spanner? I had this doubt in the past, see end of this page: http://lists.linux.it/pipermail/tp/2011-February/021547.html stepping back for a bit: why do you want to translate this at all? It is a lilypond specific term, so whatever word you pick , you have to explain it to the user anyway. You might as well leave it in its original state and stop agonizing over it. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - han...@xs4all.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Han-Wen Nienhuys hanw...@gmail.com writes: On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Federico Bruni fedel...@gmail.com wrote: Dear italian users, do you have any good idea about how to translate spanner? I had this doubt in the past, see end of this page: http://lists.linux.it/pipermail/tp/2011-February/021547.html stepping back for a bit: why do you want to translate this at all? It is a lilypond specific term, so whatever word you pick , you have to explain it to the user anyway. You might as well leave it in its original state and stop agonizing over it. While this is not likely relevant to the topic of Italian, in German, ein Spanner is a Peeping Tom. That could be motivation to choose a less suggestive term in longer treatises. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Il 27/08/2012 15:06, Han-Wen Nienhuys ha scritto: On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Federico Brunifedel...@gmail.com wrote: Dear italian users, do you have any good idea about how to translate spanner? I had this doubt in the past, see end of this page: http://lists.linux.it/pipermail/tp/2011-February/021547.html stepping back for a bit: why do you want to translate this at all? It is a lilypond specific term, so whatever word you pick , you have to explain it to the user anyway. You might as well leave it in its original state and stop agonizing over it. I'm about to send the updated po file to the translationproject robot. I've not translated yet the documentation parts where spanners are explained. So if an italian user sees an output message about estensore, he won't understand what it is. So I'll leave it untranslated until I've translated the relevant parts of NR and the term has entered in the italian user's vocabulary. In general, a translator should try to translate as much as possible. At least this is what I've learned from other italian translators. I think it's also a kind of cultural matter: in North Europe you are more used to english words and language, while in Italy, France and Spain it's different (for example, we overdub any foreign movie). -- Federico ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Federico Bruni fedel...@gmail.com writes: In general, a translator should try to translate as much as possible. At least this is what I've learned from other italian translators. I think it's also a kind of cultural matter: in North Europe you are more used to english words and language, while in Italy, France and Spain it's different (for example, we overdub any foreign movie). A friend of mine once came across a PostScript tutorial which suffered significantly in usability by the translators not just translating all variable names in the examples, but also the standard operators. The point is that if spanner is mostly used to relate to things written in the LilyPond code base and corpus, translating it is not going to help. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
2012/8/27 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org: Federico Bruni fedel...@gmail.com writes: In general, a translator should try to translate as much as possible. At least this is what I've learned from other italian translators. I think it's also a kind of cultural matter: in North Europe you are more used to english words and language, while in Italy, France and Spain it's different (for example, we overdub any foreign movie). A friend of mine once came across a PostScript tutorial which suffered significantly in usability by the translators not just translating all variable names in the examples, but also the standard operators. We are good translators. We don't do that. The point is that if spanner is mostly used to relate to things written in the LilyPond code base and corpus, translating it is not going to help. 99 percent or more of computer languages use English keywords, and a manual for them can be translated. LilyPond has keywords, but spanner is not one, it's technical, it's specific, but it's not a keyword or operator. One could leave it untranslated for clarity or brevity only. -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Le 24/08/2012 16:59, Mike disait On 24 août 2012, at 16:52, Mogens Lemvig Hansen address@hidden wrote: I am not a native English speaker, but aren't the segments of a bridge between the vertical supports called spans? If that's right, one could find the Italian word for such segments and lift the lilypond word from there. Regards, Mogens On 2012-08-24, at 5:19 AM, Felipe Castro address@hidden wrote: A spanner (in this context) is something that spans. So we could call a bridge a river spanner (although I don't believe anyone ever actually would). It's a travée in French... Travée implies more of a space between things than the thing filling the space. That said, I don't see why not, but Jean-Charles would be better equipped than I to give an opinion on the subject. Don't you have in Italian such a tool as http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/trav%C3%A9e http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/extenseur that might help! Cheers, Jean-Charles ps: wrong list cc ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 20:56:03 -0400 John Link johnl...@nyc.rr.com wrote: Well, male water sheep is not Italian. Don't mind me. I had a rough rehearsal today and I'm in a weird mood, trying to make a joke with the Italian translation (via google translate) of the British meaning of spanner. I was in joke-land as well. Male water sheep was apparently an instruction-manual translation result, from English into some other language, for hydraulic ram. :) -- David ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re:[for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Message: 6 Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:38:58 -0300 From: Han-Wen Nienhuys hanw...@gmail.com extensor sounds good to me in Portuguese. I agree. And this makes me think about my translation to esperanto, where I used the word disigi (spread), and now I see I should change it to etendi (extend). Han-Wen, instead of spanner, in English, would you use extender? I'm not asking to change, just wondering if both words are equivalent in this case. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Re:[for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
- Original Message - From: Felipe Castro fef...@gmail.com To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 12:35 PM Subject: Re:[for Italian users] how to translate spanner? Message: 6 Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:38:58 -0300 From: Han-Wen Nienhuys hanw...@gmail.com extensor sounds good to me in Portuguese. I agree. And this makes me think about my translation to esperanto, where I used the word disigi (spread), and now I see I should change it to etendi (extend). Han-Wen, instead of spanner, in English, would you use extender? I'm not asking to change, just wondering if both words are equivalent in this case. Replying as a native English speaker. No, I don't believe I would. An extender would be something that makes something extend - i.e. makes it longer. A spanner (in this context) is something that spans. So we could call a bridge a river spanner (although I don't believe anyone ever actually would). -- Phil Holmes ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Le 23/08/2012 21:36, Mike disait : On 23 août 2012, at 21:28, Tiresia GIUNO wrote: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:07:34 +0200 address@hidden address@hidden wrote: Chipping in as this issue came up in a talk I gave in France a few years ago. It seems that it'd be good to standardize this in Romance languages as much as possible. I believe that during the talk I francofied « spanner » into « spanneur » which, with explanation, passed. Other verbs for « span » in French would be : --enjamber --recouvrir --chevaucher The last two imply some sort of overlap whereas the first I'd only ever use to describe gothic vaults in cathedrals. Then again I'm not a native speaker, so perhaps a native speaker wants to chime in. There are other verbs that kinda work, but they're reflexive and would be difficult to turn into nouns. At any rate, I'm for vulgarizing English when appropriate. In English we say « piano », « andante » and « ciao » w/o batting an eyelid. I received an e-mail in Italian recently that used the work « link » for « the thing you click on to take you to a page », so I'm guessing that Italian is itself filled with anglicisms. Cheers, MS I'm sorry I switched to Italian without thinking that other people could be interested. I proposed the translation Tensore from tendere (in French tendre, then maybe Tenseur???) or to keep the english word (BTW, it looks like the Italian Spanna, also Span in english, has the same origin as Spanner) Right now I see that this word Tensore is used in mathematics (english Tensor, french Tenseur) - I don't know... Ciao, TG Hm...tendre in French is usually used with body parts to mean sort of reaching out or straining. It has a sense of motion towards something as well (tendre vers, tendre à). I'd never heard of tenseur or tensor, but both of them look mathy. I'm a fan of sticking to « spanner / spanneur / spannarizza / espannaro » or whatever. But other speakers of Spanish / French should chime in. As a matter of fact, I chose « extenseur » for these reasons: - I was not very good in mathematics, and I don't see a graph but a musical score when I read LilyPond's output, - a spanner is a graphic object that extends over other objects, - it is a substantive for the active form « s'étendre sur » - by analogy with muscles. Have a look at these threads (in French): http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user-fr/2005-10/msg5.html and http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user-fr/2008-12/msg7.html Cheers, Jean-Charles ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Re:[for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Phil Holmes wrote Friday, August 24, 2012 12:42 PM From: Felipe Castro fef...@gmail.com From: Han-Wen Nienhuys hanw...@gmail.com extensor sounds good to me in Portuguese. I agree. And this makes me think about my translation to esperanto, where I used the word disigi (spread), and now I see I should change it to etendi (extend). Han-Wen, instead of spanner, in English, would you use extender? I'm not asking to change, just wondering if both words are equivalent in this case. Replying as a native English speaker. No, I don't believe I would. An extender would be something that makes something extend - i.e. makes it longer. A spanner (in this context) is something that spans. So we could call a bridge a river spanner (although I don't believe anyone ever actually would). I agree. A spanner implies bridging between two equivalent end points. An extender would imply something already exists and is just made longer. A direction is often implied - the road was extended from A to B. Trevor ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re:[for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
2012/8/24, Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net: Han-Wen, instead of spanner, in English, would you use extender? I'm not asking to change, just wondering if both words are equivalent in this case. Replying as a native English speaker. No, I don't believe I would. An extender would be something that makes something extend - i.e. makes it longer. A spanner (in this context) is something that spans. So we could call a bridge a river spanner (although I don't believe anyone ever actually would). Ok, thanks. Just one more doubt: what about that extender-engraver thing, does it have something to do with dynamic spanners, text spanners, line spanners, volta spanners, etc? Or is that in a completely different context? There is a message to be translated, that uses explicitly the word extender (unterminated extender). So, for the case of Portuguese, for example, translating spanner with extensor would make colide both cases, so that spanner ~= extender. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
In data giovedì 23 agosto 2012 19:05:39, Federico Bruni ha scritto: Dear italian users, do you have any good idea about how to translate spanner? I had this doubt in the past, see end of this page: http://lists.linux.it/pipermail/tp/2011-February/021547.html and I decided not to translate it. What do you think about it? Taking inspiration from the latin languages: - Spanish uses trazador... maybe like tracciatore in italian? - French uses extension Last year I chose estensore. Please let me have your feedback asap, because I think that the new stable may be released during the Waltrop meeting this weekend. Thanks in advance When I was translating the Frescobaldi interface, I had the same doubt. That time, I chose Indicazioni estese but I have never been satisfied with it. If you can come up with something better, I would love to change my ugly invention. :) Gianluca ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Re:[for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Felipe Castro wrote Friday, August 24, 2012 1:19 PM Ok, thanks. Just one more doubt: what about that extender-engraver thing, does it have something to do with dynamic spanners, text spanners, line spanners, volta spanners, etc? Or is that in a completely different context? It is different. The Entender_engraver engraves LyricExtenders which extend lyric syllables across multiple notes. There is a message to be translated, that uses explicitly the word extender (unterminated extender). So, for the case of Portuguese, for example, translating spanner with extensor would make colide both cases, so that spanner ~= extender. Yes, that's correct. Trevor ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Re:[for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Hi Instead of reinventing the Italian terminology for items in musical typography to our own tastes, I can point to on and ask an Italian classical musician what it is called in Italian. Yes, of course, literally it spans (in the sense of encompasses) something but, for all we know, the correct term could be anything. If someone can point me at a volta spanner I'll show it to an Italian typographer or musician and ask what's this called? M ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Re:[for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
- Original Message - From: martinwguy martinw...@gmail.com To: Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk Cc: Felipe Castro fef...@gmail.com; Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net; lilypond-user@gnu.org Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 2:40 PM Subject: Re: Re:[for Italian users] how to translate spanner? Hi Instead of reinventing the Italian terminology for items in musical typography to our own tastes, I can point to on and ask an Italian classical musician what it is called in Italian. Yes, of course, literally it spans (in the sense of encompasses) something but, for all we know, the correct term could be anything. If someone can point me at a volta spanner I'll show it to an Italian typographer or musician and ask what's this called? M Typographically, the thing on the page is referred to (in English) as a bracket by Gould. So going for an Italian version of this would end us up with the item on the page, rather than the computing item that describes where to put the bracket on the page. -- Phil Holmes ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:03:24 +0100 Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk wrote: A spanner implies bridging between two equivalent end points. An extender would imply something already exists and is just made longer. A direction is often implied - the road was extended from A to B. Therefore, in the musical situation, both senses are correct and/or useful - depending on whether you look at the indication that is extended, or the music that it spans. -- David ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 09:19:28 -0300 Felipe Castro fef...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/8/24, Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net: Han-Wen, instead of spanner, in English, would you use extender? I'm not asking to change, just wondering if both words are equivalent in this case. Replying as a native English speaker. No, I don't believe I would. An extender would be something that makes something extend - i.e. makes it longer. A spanner (in this context) is something that spans. So we could call a bridge a river spanner (although I don't believe anyone ever actually would). Ok, thanks. Just one more doubt: what about that extender-engraver thing, does it have something to do with dynamic spanners, text spanners, line spanners, volta spanners, etc? Or is that in a completely different context? There is a message to be translated, that uses explicitly the word extender (unterminated extender). So, for the case of Portuguese, for example, translating spanner with extensor would make colide both cases, so that spanner ~= extender. Hmm. You're right. The word spanner describes what the extender does to the underlying music - like what a bridge does to a river. -- David ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On 24 August 2012 15:53, Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net wrote: - Original Message - From: martinwguy martinw...@gmail.com If someone can point me at a volta spanner I'll show it to an Italian typographer or musician and ask what's this called? Typographically, the thing on the page is referred to (in English) as a bracket by Gould. So going for an Italian version of this would end us up with the item on the page, rather than the computing item that describes where to put the bracket on the page. Right. Thanks for the clarification. In fact, volta spanner is a term only used in lilypond (says google). I guess the at means that we should think who the message is directed at - Italian users of lilypond - and invent a term for that construct that invisibly embraces a bracket. Although Italian is full of anglicisms (link, mouse and email are the correct terms), spanner is unfortunate because confused italian user looking it up in a dictionary will get the ==[ type of spanner, a complete misnomer, unless we want to invent that as a technical term and let their confusion be the clue that there is a new concept here, nothing to do with wrenches. On 24 August 2012 16:07, David Rogers davidandrewrog...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:03:24 +0100 Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk wrote: A spanner implies bridging between two equivalent end points. An extender would imply something already exists and is just made longer. A direction is often implied - the road was extended from A to B. Therefore, in the musical situation, both senses are correct and/or useful - depending on whether you look at the indication that is extended, or the music that it spans. In that case I suggest ponte, which is a literal bridge over a river, a metaphorical something that joins two things by linking them, and also can be used be a temporary support for something that you are constructing (though ponteggio would be the more precise term for this specific last meaning). M ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On 23 August 2012 21:36, m...@mikesolomon.org m...@mikesolomon.org wrote: On 23 août 2012, at 21:28, Tiresia GIUNO tires...@googlemail.com wrote: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:07:34 +0200 m...@mikesolomon.org m...@mikesolomon.org wrote: I believe that during the talk I francofied « spanner » into « spanneur » which, with explanation, passed. I'm a fan of sticking to « spanner / spanneur / spannarizza / espannaro » or whatever. But other speakers of Spanish / French should chime in. Rereading the thread, I'll go for spannatore. At least that way, Italian readers know they are in front of a technical term with a meaning of its own, and it harmonizes with the unified euro effort outlined above. I *still* haven't got over a scanner being uno scanner in Italian as scannare is to slay someone/thing by cutting their throat (!) M ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On 24 août 2012, at 16:29, martinwguy martinw...@gmail.com wrote: On 23 August 2012 21:36, m...@mikesolomon.org m...@mikesolomon.org wrote: On 23 août 2012, at 21:28, Tiresia GIUNO tires...@googlemail.com wrote: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:07:34 +0200 m...@mikesolomon.org m...@mikesolomon.org wrote: I believe that during the talk I francofied « spanner » into « spanneur » which, with explanation, passed. I'm a fan of sticking to « spanner / spanneur / spannarizza / espannaro » or whatever. But other speakers of Spanish / French should chime in. Rereading the thread, I'll go for spannatore. At least that way, Italian readers know they are in front of a technical term with a meaning of its own, and it harmonizes with the unified euro effort outlined above. I *still* haven't got over a scanner being uno scanner in Italian as scannare is to slay someone/thing by cutting their throat (!) M There have been many times where spanners have done the coding equivalent of scannare to me - I vote for that. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:03:24 +0100 Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk wrote: Phil Holmes wrote Friday, August 24, 2012 12:42 PM From: Felipe Castro fef...@gmail.com From: Han-Wen Nienhuys hanw...@gmail.com extensor sounds good to me in Portuguese. I agree. And this makes me think about my translation to esperanto, where I used the word disigi (spread), and now I see I should change it to etendi (extend). Han-Wen, instead of spanner, in English, would you use extender? I'm not asking to change, just wondering if both words are equivalent in this case. Replying as a native English speaker. No, I don't believe I would. An extender would be something that makes something extend - i.e. makes it longer. A spanner (in this context) is something that spans. So we could call a bridge a river spanner (although I don't believe anyone ever actually would). I agree. A spanner implies bridging between two equivalent end points. An extender would imply something already exists and is just made longer. A direction is often implied - the road was extended from A to B. Trevor ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user As I wrote (in Italian) in my previous post, you can translate both verbs in Italian this way: to extend = estendere to span = tendere For the nouns: Extender = Estensore Spanner = Tensore or Tenditore All these nouns are used in Italian, but in a quite specific way (you can have a look in Google Images). Tensore is used in Mathematics and in anatomy for Muscles (also in English): http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscolo_tensore_della_fascia_lata http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_fasciae_latae_muscle The same is true for French (Tenseur) and Spanish (Tensor), as it comes from Latin. While I can agree that Tensore/Tenseur/Tensor is not so used and understandable as Spanner, it looks to me that Estensore/Extenseur is wrong. An object has a certain Extension or can be extended, but spanning keep a Tension. I'm not sure that there is a similar Italian word in typography, but for sure no musician will know anything about it. Ciao, TG ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On 24 August 2012 16:29, martinwguy martinw...@gmail.com wrote: Rereading the thread, I'll go for spannatore. At least that way, Italian readers know they are in front of a technical term with a meaning of its own Oh dear. A spannatore is already a demister - the thing that makes the mist disappear from your car windows. So these things serve to demistify the brackets? Spannatrice is much rarer, the feminine form that doesn't collide with the demister. Tiresia, what effect would finding these words in a lilypond error message have on a normal Italian person? M ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:29:27 +0200 martinwguy martinw...@gmail.com wrote: I *still* haven't got over a scanner being uno scanner in Italian as scannare is to slay someone/thing by cutting their throat (!) You made me laughing... I never thought that a scanner could do something like that :-) Anyway in Italian you say uno scanner e scannerizzare ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On 24 August 2012 16:35, Tiresia GIUNO tires...@googlemail.com wrote: you can translate both verbs in Italian this way: to extend = estendere to span = tendere For the nouns: Extender = Estensore Spanner = Tensore or Tenditore All these nouns are used in Italian, but in a quite specific way (you can have a look in Google Images). Tensore is used in Mathematics and in anatomy for Muscles (also in English): The same is true for French (Tenseur) and Spanish (Tensor), as it comes from Latin. While I can agree that Tensore/Tenseur/Tensor is not so used and understandable as Spanner, it looks to me that Estensore/Extenseur is wrong. An object has a certain Extension or can be extended, but spanning keep a Tension. I like Tensore. If a LilySpanner does what I think, it is also delicately precise: Something that applies the correct tension to other objects as well as signalling tthat it is a new, technical meaning, rather than evoking demisters or wrenches. nice M ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
I am not a native English speaker, but aren't the segments of a bridge between the vertical supports called spans? If that's right, one could find the Italian word for such segments and lift the lilypond word from there. Regards, Mogens On 2012-08-24, at 5:19 AM, Felipe Castro fef...@gmail.com wrote: A spanner (in this context) is something that spans. So we could call a bridge a river spanner (although I don't believe anyone ever actually would). ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:37:24 +0200 martinwguy martinw...@gmail.com wrote: On 24 August 2012 16:29, martinwguy martinw...@gmail.com wrote: Rereading the thread, I'll go for spannatore. At least that way, Italian readers know they are in front of a technical term with a meaning of its own Oh dear. A spannatore is already a demister - the thing that makes the mist disappear from your car windows. So these things serve to demistify the brackets? Spannatrice is much rarer, the feminine form that doesn't collide with the demister. Tiresia, what effect would finding these words in a lilypond error message have on a normal Italian person? M Well, I would not really understand that. I would think that comes from spannare, to take away the panna, i.e. cream or vapor steam - which wouldn't be so bad for a trill... :-) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On 24 août 2012, at 16:52, Mogens Lemvig Hansen mog...@kayju.com wrote: I am not a native English speaker, but aren't the segments of a bridge between the vertical supports called spans? If that's right, one could find the Italian word for such segments and lift the lilypond word from there. Regards, Mogens On 2012-08-24, at 5:19 AM, Felipe Castro fef...@gmail.com wrote: A spanner (in this context) is something that spans. So we could call a bridge a river spanner (although I don't believe anyone ever actually would). ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user It's a travée in French... Travée implies more of a space between things than the thing filling the space. That said, I don't see why not, but Jean-Charles would be better equipped than I to give an opinion on the subject. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Il 24/08/2012 16:51, martinwguy ha scritto: I like Tensore. If a LilySpanner does what I think, it is also delicately precise: Something that applies the correct tension to other objects as well as signalling tthat it is a new, technical meaning, rather than evoking demisters or wrenches. Me too, I think I'll use tensore ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Il 24/08/2012 16:52, Mogens Lemvig Hansen ha scritto: I am not a native English speaker, but aren't the segments of a bridge between the vertical supports called spans? If that's right, one could find the Italian word for such segments and lift the lilypond word from there. I think they are called campata. But it is not a good choice, IMO. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Il 23/08/2012 20:59, Tiresia GIUNO ha scritto: Non conosco Lilypond in modo tale da valutare la corretta funzionalità della traduzione, ma mi sembra che nel caso di text spanner o trill spanner c'è appunto l'idea di tendere (nel senso di tirare) più che quella di dilatare o allungare - ma ripeto non posso metterci la mano sul fuoco... Hai centrato il problema, come ha chiarito Trevor qui: Il 24/08/2012 14:03, Trevor Daniels ha scritto: I agree. A spanner implies bridging between two equivalent end points. An extender would imply something already exists and is just made longer. A direction is often implied - the road was extended from A to B. Se non ci sono altri suggerimenti, lunedì invio il file .po aggiornato. Tanto ormai è tardi per la prima release stabile, entrerà nella 2.16.1 Grazie a tutti -- Federico ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
Hi all. As a native Italian speaker, I would like to comment on the possible translations that emerged so far. It is a rather long message, I apologize in advance. My preferences about the possible translation are at the end. I think that neither tensore nor estensore are good translation for Lilypond's spanner, for the following reasons. Notation Reference 5.4.6. defines spanners as objects that «extend over several notes or even several bars». The word tensore has two main meanings: the first is something which stretches/tightens something else (also in anatomy), which doesn't seem correct to me in this case; the second is the mathematical concept of tensor which definitely has nothing to do with Lilypond spanners. The main meaning of estensore is something that extends something else (also in anatomy) which seems better, but still isn't perfect: a spanner _does not_ extend something over notes, it is _itself_ extended; however it could be acceptable, since one could think of the spanner as a tool extending _a mark_ over notes. (For the same reason, as noted by Phil Holmes, also in English spanner and extender aren't synonyms at all.) The concept of k-spanners in graphs is indeed very similar to Lilypond's spanners. Unfortunately, although I studied some graph theory, I don't remember having encountered the Italian version of (k-)spanners and I don't have an Italian graph theory book at home right now, so I can't find the Italian translation for it. The Italian for «the segments of a bridge between the vertical supports [that are] called spans» in English (cited by Mogens Lemvig Hansen) is campata. Although the concept can be similar to what we are looking for, the Italian word campata only has the literal meaning of bridge span, so maybe it isn't so immediate to use it with a figurative meaning. I would definitely discourage names such as spannatore: they don't suggest the right meaning at all as martinwguy noted about demister. I also totally agree with him about (not) using spanner as an anglicism. Other neologisms based on span may sound even better and be equally not evocative. estensore would still be way better. The word ponte, i.e. bridge, is often used with figurative meanings, but in a musical context it already has the musical meaning of bridge in songs. Also, it conveys more the concept of something linking two parts, or extending from a point to another (i.e. with focus on the start and end points), rather than something that extends over something else. So in the end I am left with indicazione estesa (Gianluca D'Orazio, extended mark/indication) and oggetto esteso (Francisco Vila, objeto de extensión, extended object), that both have the right meaning in our context. The former is more precise, but the latter sounds better to my ear. If I had to vote, my preferences would be in first place oggetto esteso and in second place indicazione estesa. If for some reason they couldn't be used, my vote would go to estensore (despite the wrong literal meaning) or ponte (despite not being so evocative). I hope this helps, and not having bored you all :) Best wishes, Davide ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
2012/8/24 Davide Liessi dal...@gmail.com: Other neologisms based on span may sound even better and be equally not evocative. Of course I meant even worse instead of even better. Too long message, too hot weather... :) Best wishes, Davide ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 19:05:39 +0200 Federico Bruni fedel...@gmail.com wrote: Dear italian users, do you have any good idea about how to translate spanner? I had this doubt in the past, see end of this page: http://lists.linux.it/pipermail/tp/2011-February/021547.html and I decided not to translate it. What do you think about it? Taking inspiration from the latin languages: - Spanish uses trazador... maybe like tracciatore in italian? - French uses extension Last year I chose estensore. Please let me have your feedback asap, because I think that the new stable may be released during the Waltrop meeting this weekend. Thanks in advance Hi Federico, I think I may switch to Italian - I don't think anyone other than Italians is interested in it. Effettivamente non mi sembra facile tradurre spanner. Leggendo le possibili traduzioni di to span in italiano nel Dizionario Garzanti e online, sembra che venga dal Tedesco (dove si trova per esempio Spannung, tensione) E infatti in to span più che l'idea di estendere mi sembra ci sia l'idea di tendere. Quindi io escluderei estensore e preferirei piuttosto o conservare il termine inglese, magari traducendolo fra parentesi oppure userei _tensore_. Comunque escluderei sicuramente tracciatore. Non conosco Lilypond in modo tale da valutare la corretta funzionalità della traduzione, ma mi sembra che nel caso di text spanner o trill spanner c'è appunto l'idea di tendere (nel senso di tirare) più che quella di dilatare o allungare - ma ripeto non posso metterci la mano sul fuoco... Non ho molto tempo a disposizione né capacità tecniche adeguate, ma se posso aiutarti in un eventuale lavoro di revisione o di correzione, voglio dire in lavori più meccanici, non esitare a ricontattarmi. Grazie per il tuo lavoro di traduzione. Ciao, TG ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On 23 août 2012, at 19:05, Federico Bruni fedel...@gmail.com wrote: Dear italian users, do you have any good idea about how to translate spanner? I had this doubt in the past, see end of this page: http://lists.linux.it/pipermail/tp/2011-February/021547.html and I decided not to translate it. What do you think about it? Taking inspiration from the latin languages: - Spanish uses trazador... maybe like tracciatore in italian? - French uses extension Last year I chose estensore. Please let me have your feedback asap, because I think that the new stable may be released during the Waltrop meeting this weekend. Thanks in advance -- Federico ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user Chipping in as this issue came up in a talk I gave in France a few years ago. It seems that it'd be good to standardize this in Romance languages as much as possible. I believe that during the talk I francofied « spanner » into « spanneur » which, with explanation, passed. Other verbs for « span » in French would be : --enjamber --recouvrir --chevaucher The last two imply some sort of overlap whereas the first I'd only ever use to describe gothic vaults in cathedrals. Then again I'm not a native speaker, so perhaps a native speaker wants to chime in. There are other verbs that kinda work, but they're reflexive and would be difficult to turn into nouns. At any rate, I'm for vulgarizing English when appropriate. In English we say « piano », « andante » and « ciao » w/o batting an eyelid. I received an e-mail in Italian recently that used the work « link » for « the thing you click on to take you to a page », so I'm guessing that Italian is itself filled with anglicisms. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:07:34 +0200 m...@mikesolomon.org m...@mikesolomon.org wrote: Chipping in as this issue came up in a talk I gave in France a few years ago. It seems that it'd be good to standardize this in Romance languages as much as possible. I believe that during the talk I francofied « spanner » into « spanneur » which, with explanation, passed. Other verbs for « span » in French would be : --enjamber --recouvrir --chevaucher The last two imply some sort of overlap whereas the first I'd only ever use to describe gothic vaults in cathedrals. Then again I'm not a native speaker, so perhaps a native speaker wants to chime in. There are other verbs that kinda work, but they're reflexive and would be difficult to turn into nouns. At any rate, I'm for vulgarizing English when appropriate. In English we say « piano », « andante » and « ciao » w/o batting an eyelid. I received an e-mail in Italian recently that used the work « link » for « the thing you click on to take you to a page », so I'm guessing that Italian is itself filled with anglicisms. Cheers, MS I'm sorry I switched to Italian without thinking that other people could be interested. I proposed the translation Tensore from tendere (in French tendre, then maybe Tenseur???) or to keep the english word (BTW, it looks like the Italian Spanna, also Span in english, has the same origin as Spanner) Right now I see that this word Tensore is used in mathematics (english Tensor, french Tenseur) - I don't know... Ciao, TG ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On 23 août 2012, at 21:28, Tiresia GIUNO tires...@googlemail.com wrote: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:07:34 +0200 m...@mikesolomon.org m...@mikesolomon.org wrote: Chipping in as this issue came up in a talk I gave in France a few years ago. It seems that it'd be good to standardize this in Romance languages as much as possible. I believe that during the talk I francofied « spanner » into « spanneur » which, with explanation, passed. Other verbs for « span » in French would be : --enjamber --recouvrir --chevaucher The last two imply some sort of overlap whereas the first I'd only ever use to describe gothic vaults in cathedrals. Then again I'm not a native speaker, so perhaps a native speaker wants to chime in. There are other verbs that kinda work, but they're reflexive and would be difficult to turn into nouns. At any rate, I'm for vulgarizing English when appropriate. In English we say « piano », « andante » and « ciao » w/o batting an eyelid. I received an e-mail in Italian recently that used the work « link » for « the thing you click on to take you to a page », so I'm guessing that Italian is itself filled with anglicisms. Cheers, MS I'm sorry I switched to Italian without thinking that other people could be interested. I proposed the translation Tensore from tendere (in French tendre, then maybe Tenseur???) or to keep the english word (BTW, it looks like the Italian Spanna, also Span in english, has the same origin as Spanner) Right now I see that this word Tensore is used in mathematics (english Tensor, french Tenseur) - I don't know... Ciao, TG ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user Hm...tendre in French is usually used with body parts to mean sort of reaching out or straining. It has a sense of motion towards something as well (tendre vers, tendre à). I'd never heard of tenseur or tensor, but both of them look mathy. I'm a fan of sticking to « spanner / spanneur / spannarizza / espannaro » or whatever. But other speakers of Spanish / French should chime in. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:28:58 +0200 Tiresia GIUNO tires...@googlemail.com wrote: I'm sorry I switched to Italian without thinking that other people could be interested. I proposed the translation Tensore from tendere (in French tendre, then maybe Tenseur???) or to keep the english word (BTW, it looks like the Italian Spanna, also Span in english, has the same origin as Spanner) Right now I see that this word Tensore is used in mathematics (english Tensor, french Tenseur) - I don't know... It the graph theory (a branch of mathematics), a k-spanner of the graph G if it is a subgraph of G in which every two vertices are no more than k times further apart as they are in G. That's something closer to the meaning of spanner in Lilypond than tensor. Tensors represent contiguous fields. k-spanners are graphs. One can walk over k-spanners from one point to another. Try asking Italian mathematicians how they call k-spanners. The Italian Wikipedia is not of much help: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossario_di_teoria_dei_grafi But the French Wikipedia uses the word spanner as is: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexique_de_la_th%C3%A9orie_des_graphes -- Regards, Pavel Roskin ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
2012/8/23 Federico Bruni fedel...@gmail.com: Dear italian users, do you have any good idea about how to translate spanner? I had this doubt in the past, see end of this page: http://lists.linux.it/pipermail/tp/2011-February/021547.html and I decided not to translate it. What do you think about it? Taking inspiration from the latin languages: - Spanish uses trazador... maybe like tracciatore in italian? I didn't remember it, but logs show that I translated into trazador back in 2007, in the file po/es.po only. Then, all along the docs I have not translated it again as trazador [drawer]. I have adopted objeto de extensión [ ~ an object with an extension, or a long object, or one which occupies space] now. - French uses extension Last year I chose estensore. I'd vote for that if my knowledge of French or Italian were greater. -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
How about chiave inglese? John Link___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Francisco Vila - French uses extension Last year I chose estensore. I'd vote for that if my knowledge of French or Italian were greater. extensor sounds good to me in Portuguese. When I invented the word, I was thinking of the mathemetical concept (a vector space is spanned by any basis) as well the colloquial version (a bridge that spans a river). I think there is no word in Portuguese that reflects both, since spanning in vector context is gerar (generate) and a bridge would atravessar (cross) a river. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - han...@xs4all.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: [for Italian users] how to translate spanner?
On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:34 PM, David Rogers wrote: On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 18:33:12 -0400 John Link johnl...@nyc.rr.com wrote: How about chiave inglese? In this particular context, male water sheep would do just as well, wouldn't it? grin Well, male water sheep is not Italian. Don't mind me. I had a rough rehearsal today and I'm in a weird mood, trying to make a joke with the Italian translation (via google translate) of the British meaning of spanner. John Link http://www.cdbaby.com/all/johnlink http://www.myspace.com/johnlinkproject ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
