Re: SLES 15 - no help?
No emoji required: Linux and GNU/Linux are most definitely not UNIX. Linux and UNIX are separate, distinct, registered trademarks. These trademarks apply when they apply and don't when they don't. As a comparison, an Apple iPhone running iOS is not a Google Pixel running Android. However, they're both smartphones that both run operating systems. Even though they have much in common in terms of their actual codebase, Apple's iOS is not UNIX, but Apple's macOS is. As another example, IBM's z/OS is UNIX, but FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD are not UNIX. Are we having fun yet? :-) I applaud software distributors that support concise, parsimonious installations for those who choose them. Timothy Sipples IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: SLES 15 - no help?
Tim, > Linux is not UNIX Agreed. Linux is a kernel. GNU/Linux is UNIX (oh, wait, Gnu's *NOT* UNIX. :)) -Mike On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 1:01 AM Timothy Sipples wrote: > Michael MacIsaac wrote: > >I get my hands on a minimal SLES 15 for the first time. > >I try to edit a file: > ># *vi foo* > >-bash: vi: command not found > ># *vim foo* > >-bash: vim: command not found > >HUH? A UNIX with no vi? NEVER seen that before. > > If you haven't, you still haven't. SLES is Linux®, but Linux is not UNIX®. > > I've encountered many Linux distributions without vi/vim, man, info, and > help commands. > > > > Timothy Sipples > IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE > > > > E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com > > -- > For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or > visit > http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 > -- -Mike MacIsaac -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: SLES 15 - no help?
Michael MacIsaac wrote: >I get my hands on a minimal SLES 15 for the first time. >I try to edit a file: ># *vi foo* >-bash: vi: command not found ># *vim foo* >-bash: vim: command not found >HUH? A UNIX with no vi? NEVER seen that before. If you haven't, you still haven't. SLES is Linux®, but Linux is not UNIX®. I've encountered many Linux distributions without vi/vim, man, info, and help commands. Timothy Sipples IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: SLES 15 - no help?
On 6/9/19 5:44 PM, Michael MacIsaac wrote: > Thanks for the quick reply. If you can pass the word up the line that a few > paying customers expect 'vi' to be part of minimal, that would be great. That's been discussed internally. It's not going to change any time soon. Minimal really, really means minimal. You want more than that. > But how do I install the man pages? 'zypper install man' does not get it. > > Let me ask this - do you have a doc that states how to make a fairly useful > system out of 'minimal'? We are trying to get to a minimal system that has > basic function like editing files and getting help, then adding SaaS later. You need to take a look at what's in the "Packages" ISO image (SLE-15-Packages-s390x-GM-DVD1.iso). The man-pages and man-pages-posix packages are there, as well as a whole bunch of other things in the Module-Basesystem directories. Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: SLES 15 - no help?
On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 at 13:48, Michael MacIsaac wrote: > HUH? A UNIX with no vi? NEVER seen that before. > -bash: man: command not found Well, you did say "minimal". Neither of those are necessary to get the system multi-user. Somebody probably intended that particular configuration to be the basis for building a custom image for appliance use; if you don't explicitly add it, it ain't there for a reason. Makes perfect sense for a system intended to run one or two applications from EPROM. That kind of setup isn't all that uncommon from the pre-Linux days. BSDI, XENIX, HP/UX and SunOS (pre-Solaris) all had a minimum install setup that you were supposed to use for embedded or disk-constrained systems. AT 3B2s came that way by default (one of the main reasons why AT couldn't give those turkeys away). It'd be interesting to see if the "minimal" configuration is useful for creating a system to be run from a DCSS. -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: SLES 15 - no help?
Mark, Thanks for the quick reply. If you can pass the word up the line that a few paying customers expect 'vi' to be part of minimal, that would be great. But how do I install the man pages? 'zypper install man' does not get it. Let me ask this - do you have a doc that states how to make a fairly useful system out of 'minimal'? We are trying to get to a minimal system that has basic function like editing files and getting help, then adding SaaS later. Thanks. -Mike On Sun, Jun 9, 2019 at 1:17 PM Mark Post wrote: > On 6/9/19 7:47 AM, Michael MacIsaac wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I get my hands on a minimal SLES 15 for the first time. I try to edit a > > file: > > > > # *vi foo* > > -bash: vi: command not found > > # *vim foo* > > -bash: vim: command not found > > > > HUH? A UNIX with no vi? NEVER seen that before. > > You're the one that selected minimal, and nothing else. ;) As Rob > pointed out, "minimal" is a changing concept. With SLES15 that happened. > The minimal pattern is intended to be used by people who want a truly > small footprint that they can add to and get what they want, with the > least amount of unwanted packages. Think embedded systems. > > I can't say I like the way SLES15 (and now SLES15 SP1) is packaged, but > I didn't have any say over that. (Big surprise.) > > > Mark Post > > -- > For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or > visit > http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 > -- -Mike MacIsaac -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: SLES 15 - no help?
On 6/9/19 7:47 AM, Michael MacIsaac wrote: > Hi, > > I get my hands on a minimal SLES 15 for the first time. I try to edit a > file: > > # *vi foo* > -bash: vi: command not found > # *vim foo* > -bash: vim: command not found > > HUH? A UNIX with no vi? NEVER seen that before. You're the one that selected minimal, and nothing else. ;) As Rob pointed out, "minimal" is a changing concept. With SLES15 that happened. The minimal pattern is intended to be used by people who want a truly small footprint that they can add to and get what they want, with the least amount of unwanted packages. Think embedded systems. I can't say I like the way SLES15 (and now SLES15 SP1) is packaged, but I didn't have any say over that. (Big surprise.) Mark Post -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: SLES 15 - no help?
Oh sure, we can do online help away and direct to kc of just the global home page where someone flashes “are you considering a purchase” Rob (biting his tongue) On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 at 14:13, Michael MacIsaac wrote: > Rob, > > > We could argue that a server can do without, > Yeah, maybe z/VM should deprecate XEDIT and HELP in v8 and have people use > something more modern (hehe). > > -Mike > > On Sun, Jun 9, 2019 at 7:56 AM Rob van der Heij wrote: > > > We could argue that a server can do without, and I’ve always complained > the > > minimal was too much. The container stuff likely focus them. It may be > too > > minimal for manual sysadmin work. I think it lacks sudo as well. > > And I hate they put ifconfig cs in nettools-very-much-deprecated in some > > other repository. > > > > Rob > > > > On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 at 13:48, Michael MacIsaac > wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I get my hands on a minimal SLES 15 for the first time. I try to edit > a > > > file: > > > > > > # *vi foo* > > > -bash: vi: command not found > > > # *vim foo* > > > -bash: vim: command not found > > > > > > HUH? A UNIX with no vi? NEVER seen that before. > > > > > > So I install it: > > > > > > # *zypper install -y vim* > > > ... > > > > > > > > > Now I need to check a flag: > > > > > > #* man vim * > > > -bash: man: command not found > > > > > > > > > So I try to install man: > > > > > > # *zypper install -y man* > > > ... > > > No provider of 'man' found. > > > > > > > > > HUH? A UNIX with no man pages at all? NEVER seen that before either. > > > Hopefully there's another way to install man. > > > > > > So I try to get help another way: > > > > > > # *info vim* > > > info: No menu item 'vim' in node '(dir)Top' > > > # *help vim* > > > -bash: help: no help topics match `vim'. Try `help help' or `man -k > vim' > > > or `info vim'. > > > > > > > > > No 'info', no 'help' (which suggests to use man or info - hehe) > > > > > > Am I just spoiled with the backward compatibility baked into the > > mainframe? > > > > > > -- > > > -Mike MacIsaac > > > > > > -- > > > For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > > send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 > or > > > visit > > > http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 > > > > > > > -- > > For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or > > visit > > http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 > > > > > -- > -Mike MacIsaac > > -- > For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or > visit > http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 > -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: SLES 15 - no help?
Rob, > We could argue that a server can do without, Yeah, maybe z/VM should deprecate XEDIT and HELP in v8 and have people use something more modern (hehe). -Mike On Sun, Jun 9, 2019 at 7:56 AM Rob van der Heij wrote: > We could argue that a server can do without, and I’ve always complained the > minimal was too much. The container stuff likely focus them. It may be too > minimal for manual sysadmin work. I think it lacks sudo as well. > And I hate they put ifconfig cs in nettools-very-much-deprecated in some > other repository. > > Rob > > On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 at 13:48, Michael MacIsaac wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I get my hands on a minimal SLES 15 for the first time. I try to edit a > > file: > > > > # *vi foo* > > -bash: vi: command not found > > # *vim foo* > > -bash: vim: command not found > > > > HUH? A UNIX with no vi? NEVER seen that before. > > > > So I install it: > > > > # *zypper install -y vim* > > ... > > > > > > Now I need to check a flag: > > > > #* man vim * > > -bash: man: command not found > > > > > > So I try to install man: > > > > # *zypper install -y man* > > ... > > No provider of 'man' found. > > > > > > HUH? A UNIX with no man pages at all? NEVER seen that before either. > > Hopefully there's another way to install man. > > > > So I try to get help another way: > > > > # *info vim* > > info: No menu item 'vim' in node '(dir)Top' > > # *help vim* > > -bash: help: no help topics match `vim'. Try `help help' or `man -k vim' > > or `info vim'. > > > > > > No 'info', no 'help' (which suggests to use man or info - hehe) > > > > Am I just spoiled with the backward compatibility baked into the > mainframe? > > > > -- > > -Mike MacIsaac > > > > -- > > For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or > > visit > > http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 > > > > -- > For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or > visit > http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 > -- -Mike MacIsaac -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
Re: SLES 15 - no help?
We could argue that a server can do without, and I’ve always complained the minimal was too much. The container stuff likely focus them. It may be too minimal for manual sysadmin work. I think it lacks sudo as well. And I hate they put ifconfig cs in nettools-very-much-deprecated in some other repository. Rob On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 at 13:48, Michael MacIsaac wrote: > Hi, > > I get my hands on a minimal SLES 15 for the first time. I try to edit a > file: > > # *vi foo* > -bash: vi: command not found > # *vim foo* > -bash: vim: command not found > > HUH? A UNIX with no vi? NEVER seen that before. > > So I install it: > > # *zypper install -y vim* > ... > > > Now I need to check a flag: > > #* man vim * > -bash: man: command not found > > > So I try to install man: > > # *zypper install -y man* > ... > No provider of 'man' found. > > > HUH? A UNIX with no man pages at all? NEVER seen that before either. > Hopefully there's another way to install man. > > So I try to get help another way: > > # *info vim* > info: No menu item 'vim' in node '(dir)Top' > # *help vim* > -bash: help: no help topics match `vim'. Try `help help' or `man -k vim' > or `info vim'. > > > No 'info', no 'help' (which suggests to use man or info - hehe) > > Am I just spoiled with the backward compatibility baked into the mainframe? > > -- > -Mike MacIsaac > > -- > For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or > visit > http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390 > -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
SLES 15 - no help?
Hi, I get my hands on a minimal SLES 15 for the first time. I try to edit a file: # *vi foo* -bash: vi: command not found # *vim foo* -bash: vim: command not found HUH? A UNIX with no vi? NEVER seen that before. So I install it: # *zypper install -y vim* ... Now I need to check a flag: #* man vim * -bash: man: command not found So I try to install man: # *zypper install -y man* ... No provider of 'man' found. HUH? A UNIX with no man pages at all? NEVER seen that before either. Hopefully there's another way to install man. So I try to get help another way: # *info vim* info: No menu item 'vim' in node '(dir)Top' # *help vim* -bash: help: no help topics match `vim'. Try `help help' or `man -k vim' or `info vim'. No 'info', no 'help' (which suggests to use man or info - hehe) Am I just spoiled with the backward compatibility baked into the mainframe? -- -Mike MacIsaac -- For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit http://www2.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
