subject:"RMS"

> From: Anton Amirian 
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 21:23:54 +0300
> Cc: Omer Zak , linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
> 
> This is a literal quote from RMS
> >I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The 
> >arguments that it causes harm
> seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by 
> parents who are horrified by
> the idea that their little baby is maturing

So?  Those are words of a skeptic, who questions the validity of
someone else's arguments, because the basis of those arguments seems
to him to be shaky.  He didn't even say what his opinions were, just
that he was "skeptical".  Since when do we condemn people who question
views of others?  And it's also taken out of context: you should read
the whole text, not just 2 sentences from its middle.  Needless to
say, there are no deeds here.  Pedophilia is deeds, not skepticism
about opinions of others.

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Re: (BDS OFFTOPIC) Re: Venue for RMS

2022-05-18 Thread Anton Amirian

This is a literal quote from RMS
>I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children.
The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't
voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the
idea that their little baby is maturing

If you want to believe that it's all a slander invented by some mean people
who don't like poor RMS then sure whatever makes you sleep better at night
I don't really care

Was just shocked that what people have problem with is his stance on the
palestinian/israeli conflict and not this

real gamer moment, good job

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 9:12 PM Eli Zaretskii  wrote:

> > From: Anton Amirian 
> > Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:56:25 +0300
> > Cc: Omer Zak , linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
> >
> > Honestly I'm kinda shocked that some people are more mad at him for not
> liking israeli treatment of
> > palestinians than the whole pedophilia thing
>
> There's no pedophilia thing.  There's a hostile campaign initiated by
> people with an agenda and unclean conscience, and propagated by people
> who cannot be bothered to read the original emails and posts and make
> up their own minds.
>
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Re: (BDS OFFTOPIC) Re: Venue for RMS

> From: Anton Amirian 
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:56:25 +0300
> Cc: Omer Zak , linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
> 
> Honestly I'm kinda shocked that some people are more mad at him for not 
> liking israeli treatment of
> palestinians than the whole pedophilia thing

There's no pedophilia thing.  There's a hostile campaign initiated by
people with an agenda and unclean conscience, and propagated by people
who cannot be bothered to read the original emails and posts and make
up their own minds.

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Re: (BDS OFFTOPIC) Re: Venue for RMS

On Wed, 2022-05-18 at 20:36 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> If you distinguish between his views and deeds, you don't know RMS.
> This is the man who never uses a smartphone, or a Web browser with
> JavaScript support, because that could cause him to use non-Free
> software.  His views and his deeds are inseparable: he acts on his
> views immediately and without any compromises.  Thus, if some of his
> views are incorrect or silly, so will be the deeds.  I don't always
> agree with his radical approach to these matters, but I admire his
> ability to live 110% according to his principles; you won't find many
> people capable of that.

It only makes his decision, to boycott Israeli institutions not
approved by the Palestinian, worse. Much worse.

> > I don't think we'll lose by this.
> 
> Your opinion, to which you are entitled.  I don't think it's based on
> anything substantial, but even if it is, why should you take upon
> yourself to decide for others whether they will hear something new
> and
> useful, and might lose by not hearing that?  IME, one can usually
> take
> something useful out of hearing a smart person, even if one disagrees
> with some of his views.

Personally, I am not affiliated with TAU or HUJI and cannot organize a
venue for him. I can only urge people in those institutions not to
cooperate with the BDS supporter. You are free to encourage those
people to cooperate with him.

I base my opinion about novelty of RMS's opinions upon the lack of
anything substantially new from him (except for scandals) during the
last few years. I cannot recall anything really new he created or led
since the GPLv3 effort.

Other people now maintain Emacs. Other people maintain GCC. Other
people work on GNU/Hurd.

-- 
Any legal limit to self defense means that there is no right for self
defense at all.  This is because the aggressors would exploit those
legal limits to render their victims totally defenseless.
My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
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Re: (BDS OFFTOPIC) Re: Venue for RMS

2022-05-18 Thread Anton Amirian

Honestly I'm kinda shocked that some people are more mad at him for not
liking israeli treatment of palestinians than the whole pedophilia thing

what the hell, assess your values

jeez

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 8:37 PM Eli Zaretskii  wrote:

> > From: Omer Zak 
> > Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:10:59 +0300
> >
> > > And yes, his views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are skewed and
> > > sometimes border on the silly, but if you think boycotting us is
> > > wrong, then why do you suggest boycotting him?  Why is it that a
> > > single point of disagreement is enough to call for an ostracism?
> >
> > I would not boycott him due to his views on the Israeli-Palestinian
> > conflict. Not even if he'd advocate for the DS part of BDS.
> > My issue with him is that HE BOYCOTTED ISRAELI INSTITUTIONS not
> > approved by the Palestinians. He supported, by his actions, the B part
> > of BDS.
>
> If you distinguish between his views and deeds, you don't know RMS.
> This is the man who never uses a smartphone, or a Web browser with
> JavaScript support, because that could cause him to use non-Free
> software.  His views and his deeds are inseparable: he acts on his
> views immediately and without any compromises.  Thus, if some of his
> views are incorrect or silly, so will be the deeds.  I don't always
> agree with his radical approach to these matters, but I admire his
> ability to live 110% according to his principles; you won't find many
> people capable of that.
>
> > He chose to boycott. He should bear the consequences of this choice.
>
> He already have: by refusing to talk in our institutions back then he
> was deprived of our attention and our support, and heard some quite
> unfriendly remarks, which were well deserved.  Now he does want to
> talk (or so it seems; I have no knowledge about his purposes except
> what I've read here).  We should encourage people to reassess their
> views, not try "punishing" them out of pure vengeance.
>
> > I don't think we'll lose by this.
>
> Your opinion, to which you are entitled.  I don't think it's based on
> anything substantial, but even if it is, why should you take upon
> yourself to decide for others whether they will hear something new and
> useful, and might lose by not hearing that?  IME, one can usually take
> something useful out of hearing a smart person, even if one disagrees
> with some of his views.
>
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Re: (BDS OFFTOPIC) Re: Venue for RMS

> From: Omer Zak 
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 20:10:59 +0300
> 
> > And yes, his views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are skewed and
> > sometimes border on the silly, but if you think boycotting us is
> > wrong, then why do you suggest boycotting him?  Why is it that a
> > single point of disagreement is enough to call for an ostracism?
> 
> I would not boycott him due to his views on the Israeli-Palestinian
> conflict. Not even if he'd advocate for the DS part of BDS.
> My issue with him is that HE BOYCOTTED ISRAELI INSTITUTIONS not
> approved by the Palestinians. He supported, by his actions, the B part
> of BDS.

If you distinguish between his views and deeds, you don't know RMS.
This is the man who never uses a smartphone, or a Web browser with
JavaScript support, because that could cause him to use non-Free
software.  His views and his deeds are inseparable: he acts on his
views immediately and without any compromises.  Thus, if some of his
views are incorrect or silly, so will be the deeds.  I don't always
agree with his radical approach to these matters, but I admire his
ability to live 110% according to his principles; you won't find many
people capable of that.

> He chose to boycott. He should bear the consequences of this choice.

He already have: by refusing to talk in our institutions back then he
was deprived of our attention and our support, and heard some quite
unfriendly remarks, which were well deserved.  Now he does want to
talk (or so it seems; I have no knowledge about his purposes except
what I've read here).  We should encourage people to reassess their
views, not try "punishing" them out of pure vengeance.

> I don't think we'll lose by this.

Your opinion, to which you are entitled.  I don't think it's based on
anything substantial, but even if it is, why should you take upon
yourself to decide for others whether they will hear something new and
useful, and might lose by not hearing that?  IME, one can usually take
something useful out of hearing a smart person, even if one disagrees
with some of his views.

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Re: (BDS OFFTOPIC) Re: Venue for RMS

On Wed, 2022-05-18 at 18:59 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > From: Dan Yasny 
> > Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 11:38:36 -0400
> > Cc: Israel Linux Mailing list 
> > 
> >  Is he the same RMS who boycotted Israeli universities at 2011
> > happily
> >  surrendering to demands of Palestinians - without even making a
> > token
> >  effort to ask if Israelis are willing to take over his trip's
> > finances
> >  so that Palestinians won't have to pay for his non-boycotting trip
> > to
> >  Israel and Palestine?
> > 
> >  If yes, I urge the TAU and HUJI people not to help him.
> > 
> > +1 there should be no room for hypocrisy. 
> 
> Such a harsh judgment, based on pure hearsay, without even hearing
> the
> "guilty" side's story, and of a person whom you most probably never
> met...

I personally corresponded with RMS by E-mail at 2011 concerning his
decision to boycott Israeli universities.
I believe that several Linux-IL members (not me) had the opportunity to
meet him in person in a previous visit to Israel.

Boycotting a boycotter is a just judgment, not an overly harsh
judgment. If he has not been willing to communicate with us and argue
with us, we have no reason to listen to him later.

(If he repents and persuades his Palestinian colleagues to repent, too,
it would be a different matter. Then we'll have to verify that the
remorse is genuine.)

-- 
Your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins.
Your freedom of expression ends where my freedom of expression begins.
Your freedom of religion ends where my rights for equality and
accessibility begin.
My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with
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Re: (BDS OFFTOPIC) Re: Venue for RMS

On Wed, 2022-05-18 at 18:54 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > From: Omer Zak 
> > Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 18:34:58 +0300
> > 
> > Is he the same RMS who boycotted Israeli universities at 2011
> > happily
> > surrendering to demands of Palestinians - without even making a
> > token
> > effort to ask if Israelis are willing to take over his trip's
> > finances
> > so that Palestinians won't have to pay for his non-boycotting trip
> > to
> > Israel and Palestine?
> > 
> > If yes, I urge the TAU and HUJI people not to help him.
> 
> He's also the same RMS who single-handedly jump-started the GNU
> project and the whole Free Software movement, and wrote some of the
> tools me and you are running every day on our GNU/Linux systems.

Several people ignored this history when they threw him out of FSF due
to some attitudes that he had and which are unacceptable to today's
Cancel culture.

We do not have to follow their footsteps. It is enough to ask if he has
anything new to tell us about his stuff.

> And yes, his views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are skewed and
> sometimes border on the silly, but if you think boycotting us is
> wrong, then why do you suggest boycotting him?  Why is it that a
> single point of disagreement is enough to call for an ostracism?

I would not boycott him due to his views on the Israeli-Palestinian
conflict. Not even if he'd advocate for the DS part of BDS.
My issue with him is that HE BOYCOTTED ISRAELI INSTITUTIONS not
approved by the Palestinians. He supported, by his actions, the B part
of BDS.

When there is a boycott, it is impossible to discuss, to argue, to
express disagreement (or even agreement).

He chose to boycott. He should bear the consequences of this choice.
I
don't think we'll lose by this. If he has anything really new to tell
the world, we'll get to know it some way or other.
-- 
Any legal limit to self defense means that there is no right for self
defense at all.  This is because the aggressors would exploit those
legal limits to render their victims totally defenseless.
My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
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Re: (BDS OFFTOPIC) Re: Venue for RMS

> From: Dan Yasny 
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 11:38:36 -0400
> Cc: Israel Linux Mailing list 
> 
>  Is he the same RMS who boycotted Israeli universities at 2011 happily
>  surrendering to demands of Palestinians - without even making a token
>  effort to ask if Israelis are willing to take over his trip's finances
>  so that Palestinians won't have to pay for his non-boycotting trip to
>  Israel and Palestine?
> 
>  If yes, I urge the TAU and HUJI people not to help him.
> 
> +1 there should be no room for hypocrisy. 

Such a harsh judgment, based on pure hearsay, without even hearing the
"guilty" side's story, and of a person whom you most probably never
met...

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Re: (BDS OFFTOPIC) Re: Venue for RMS

> From: Omer Zak 
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 18:34:58 +0300
> 
> Is he the same RMS who boycotted Israeli universities at 2011 happily
> surrendering to demands of Palestinians - without even making a token
> effort to ask if Israelis are willing to take over his trip's finances
> so that Palestinians won't have to pay for his non-boycotting trip to
> Israel and Palestine?
> 
> If yes, I urge the TAU and HUJI people not to help him.

He's also the same RMS who single-handedly jump-started the GNU
project and the whole Free Software movement, and wrote some of the
tools me and you are running every day on our GNU/Linux systems.

And yes, his views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are skewed and
sometimes border on the silly, but if you think boycotting us is
wrong, then why do you suggest boycotting him?  Why is it that a
single point of disagreement is enough to call for an ostracism?

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Re: (BDS OFFTOPIC) Re: Venue for RMS

2022-05-18 Thread Dan Yasny

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 11:35 AM Omer Zak  wrote:

> Is he the same RMS who boycotted Israeli universities at 2011 happily
> surrendering to demands of Palestinians - without even making a token
> effort to ask if Israelis are willing to take over his trip's finances
> so that Palestinians won't have to pay for his non-boycotting trip to
> Israel and Palestine?
>
> If yes, I urge the TAU and HUJI people not to help him.
>

+1 there should be no room for hypocrisy.


>
>
> On Wed, 2022-05-18 at 17:43 +0300, Julian Daich wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > RMS is coming to Tel Aviv. I am receving him. He is looking for a
> > place to give  a prentation in a mayor university on Msy 31 st or
> > June 1st. Is there here somebody from TAU or HUJI that can help to
> > organize it? He will no chsrge for his talk.
> >
> > Please, contact me in private.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Julian
> --
> Any legal limit to self defense means that there is no right for self
> defense at all.  This is because the aggressors would exploit those
> legal limits to render their victims totally defenseless.
> My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/
>
> My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
> They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
> I may be affiliated in any way.
> WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at https://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
>
>
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(BDS OFFTOPIC) Re: Venue for RMS

Is he the same RMS who boycotted Israeli universities at 2011 happily
surrendering to demands of Palestinians - without even making a token
effort to ask if Israelis are willing to take over his trip's finances
so that Palestinians won't have to pay for his non-boycotting trip to
Israel and Palestine?

If yes, I urge the TAU and HUJI people not to help him.

On Wed, 2022-05-18 at 17:43 +0300, Julian Daich wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> RMS is coming to Tel Aviv. I am receving him. He is looking for a
> place to give  a prentation in a mayor university on Msy 31 st or
> June 1st. Is there here somebody from TAU or HUJI that can help to
> organize it? He will no chsrge for his talk.
> 
> Please, contact me in private.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Julian
-- 
Any legal limit to self defense means that there is no right for self
defense at all.  This is because the aggressors would exploit those
legal limits to render their victims totally defenseless.
My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at https://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html

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Venue for RMS

2022-05-18 Thread Julian Daich

Hi,

RMS is coming to Tel Aviv. I am receving him. He is looking for a place to
give  a prentation in a mayor university on Msy 31 st or June 1st. Is there
here somebody from TAU or HUJI that can help to organize it? He will no
chsrge for his talk.

Please, contact me in private.

Thanks,

Julian
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Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Guy Sheffer

Hey all,
I just spoke to the organizer, Sami Abu-Schada. Talk is in the
Hebrew-Arab theater in Yafo.
They sound like good folks. And they would be happy to have people come
(and don't want to get in to the politics).


What: A talk by Richard Stallman sponsored by the jaffa youth movement
Where: the Al Saraya Theater courtyard Mifratz Shlomo St. 10Ancient
Jaffa (Near the HAMAM)
When: July 22nd at 3pm (sharp)

PDF with the full info:
http://pdfcast.org/pdf/invitation-to-a-talk-by-richard-stallman-in-tel-aviv-israel-july-22nd











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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Nadav Har'El

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011, Guy Sheffer wrote about Finally - A RMS talk in
Tel-Aviv. Including details:
Hey all,
I just spoke to the organizer, Sami Abu-Schada. Talk is in the
Hebrew-Arab theater in Yafo.
They sound like good folks. And they would be happy to have people come
(and don't want to get in to the politics).
...
PDF with the full info:
http://pdfcast.org/pdf/invitation-to-a-talk-by-richard-stallman-in-tel-aviv-israel-july-22nd

They sure *do* want to get into the politics :(
Did you see the emphasized text in the end of that invitation?

the organizers of the event would like it to be known that they are
in full support of the rights of Palestenians. In particular, the
organizers support the call for boycott of complicit Israeli
institutions. Richard Stallman is following the boycott during this
trip out of respect to the Palestinians hosts who invited him to the
region

Do people who don't want to get in to the politics normally include such
texts on invitations to talks about software?

As it stands, because this text is so boldly included in the *invitation*,
it looks like just *attending* this talk means you support this statement
by its hosts. And if I consider that complicit Israeli institutions
include, according to their definition, almost all Israeli institutions
(and not just those directly involved with the occupied territories), certainly
even insitution I ever worked at or studied at, I frankly don't see how I can
attend this talk.

--
Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Jul 17 2011, 15 Tammuz 5771
n...@math.technion.ac.il |-
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Linux *is* user-friendly. Not
http://nadav.harel.org.il |idiot-friendly, but user-friendly.

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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda

Stallman asked me to inform people about his two talks:


Haifa:
Copyright vs Community in the Age of the Computer Networks
July 21 at 5pm (sharp).
Baladna Youth Club
Zion Street 3-A
Haifa

Tel Aviv area:
For a Free Digital Society
July 22, 15:00
Al Saraya Theater
Mifratz Shlomo St. 10 (near the hamam)
Ancient Jaffa

And I guess also about his explanation:
http://stallman.org/articles/palestine-trip.html

Orna

2011/7/17 Guy Sheffer guysof...@gmail.com

 **
 Hey all,
 I just spoke to the organizer, Sami Abu-Schada. Talk is in the Hebrew-Arab
 theater in Yafo.
 They sound like good folks. And they would be happy to have people come
 (and don't want to get in to the politics).


 What: A talk by Richard Stallman sponsored by the jaffa youth movement
 Where: the Al Saraya Theater courtyard Mifratz Shlomo St. 10Ancient Jaffa
 (Near the HAMAM)
 When: July 22nd at 3pm (sharp)
 PDF with the full info:

 http://pdfcast.org/pdf/invitation-to-a-talk-by-richard-stallman-in-tel-aviv-israel-july-22nd










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-- 
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http://ladypine.org
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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

On 07/17/2011 04:35 PM, Nadav Har'El wrote:

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011, Guy Sheffer wrote about Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv.
Including details:

Hey all,
I just spoke to the organizer, Sami Abu-Schada. Talk is in the
Hebrew-Arab theater in Yafo.
They sound like good folks. And they would be happy to have people come
(and don't want to get in to the politics).
...
PDF with the full info:
http://pdfcast.org/pdf/invitation-to-a-talk-by-richard-stallman-in-tel-aviv-israel-july-22nd

They sure *do* want to get into the politics :(
Did you see the emphasized text in the end of that invitation?

Do people who don't want to get in to the politics normally include such
texts on invitations to talks about software?

It isn't necessary to read the invitation to the end. Right at the top,
you can ask yourself about the probabilities of the reasons that would
bring someone named Sawyer (the submitter) to Yafo. The organization
is a dry-land flotilla. It was very foolish to arrange to meet in their
premises. In face, it was very foolish indeed to try to cater to Mr
Stallman's prejudices.

To be more general, it is unheard of for a prospective guest to set
political conditions for his hosts. Aside of any other aspects, the man
is a boor, and should have been ignored.

Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel

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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Michael Shiloh




On 07/17/2011 09:15 AM, Stan Goodman wrote:



To be more general, it is unheard of for a prospective guest to set
political conditions for his hosts. Aside of any other aspects, the man
is a boor, and should have been ignored.



I'm not sure that's true. Haven't musicians and other performers used 
their platform as a way to express agreement or disagreement with 
particular political positions for ages?


Michael

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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Orr Dunkelman

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 7:19 PM, Michael Shiloh
michaelshiloh1...@gmail.com  To be more general, it is unheard of
for a prospective guest to set
 political conditions for his hosts. Aside of any other aspects, the man
 is a boor, and should have been ignored.


 I'm not sure that's true. Haven't musicians and other performers used their
 platform as a way to express agreement or disagreement with particular
 political positions for ages?

 Michael

It is very rare in computer science to mix politics and work.
Actually, this is true for most exact sciences.

As for RMS, who is an advocate of freedom of rights, he has just
agreed to accept money (travel costs) in exchange for giving away his
freedom of speech.
Tz'e Wolmad...

-- 
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orr.dunkel...@gmail.com

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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Dima (Dan) Yasny

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Orr Dunkelman orr.dunkel...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 7:19 PM, Michael Shiloh
 michaelshiloh1...@gmail.com  To be more general, it is unheard of
 for a prospective guest to set
  political conditions for his hosts. Aside of any other aspects, the man
  is a boor, and should have been ignored.
 
 
  I'm not sure that's true. Haven't musicians and other performers used
 their
  platform as a way to express agreement or disagreement with particular
  political positions for ages?
 
  Michael

 It is very rare in computer science to mix politics and work.
 Actually, this is true for most exact sciences.

 As for RMS, who is an advocate of freedom of rights, he has just
 agreed to accept money (travel costs) in exchange for giving away his
 freedom of speech.
 Tz'e Wolmad...


/me don't see what the argument is about. I'll simply vote against RMS's and
his politically inclined friends bs with my feet by _not_ going. End of
story

--
 Orr Dunkelman,
 orr.dunkel...@gmail.com

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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Mordecha Behar

2011/7/17 Dima (Dan) Yasny dya...@gmail.com



 On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Orr Dunkelman orr.dunkel...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 7:19 PM, Michael Shiloh
 michaelshiloh1...@gmail.com  To be more general, it is unheard of
 for a prospective guest to set
  political conditions for his hosts. Aside of any other aspects, the man
  is a boor, and should have been ignored.
 
 
  I'm not sure that's true. Haven't musicians and other performers used
 their
  platform as a way to express agreement or disagreement with particular
  political positions for ages?
 
  Michael

 It is very rare in computer science to mix politics and work.
 Actually, this is true for most exact sciences.

 As for RMS, who is an advocate of freedom of rights, he has just
 agreed to accept money (travel costs) in exchange for giving away his
 freedom of speech.
 Tz'e Wolmad...


 /me don't see what the argument is about. I'll simply vote against RMS's
 and his politically inclined friends bs with my feet by _not_ going. End of
 story


Yes, there is that.
But thanks to the law passed last week we can also take affirmative action.
I don't think that suing RMS or the FSF will be a good idea, or even
feasible (IANAL and I'm pretty sure that this law doesn't hold for
people/groups from abroad) but we might be able to sue the group financing
his trip.
Again, I'm not sure that that's even a good idea. But it is possible.



 --

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 orr.dunkel...@gmail.com

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Fwd: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Mordecha Behar

-- Forwarded message --
From: Mordecha Behar mordecha.be...@mail.huji.ac.il
Date: Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details
To: Tzafrir Cohen tzaf...@cohens.org.il

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Tzafrir Cohen tzaf...@cohens.org.ilwrote:

 Written off-list,

 On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 08:26:39PM +0300, Mordecha Behar wrote:
  2011/7/17 Dima (Dan) Yasny dya...@gmail.com

   On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Orr Dunkelman 
 orr.dunkel...@gmail.comwrote:

   On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 7:19 PM, Michael Shiloh
   michaelshiloh1...@gmail.com  To be more general, it is unheard of
   for a prospective guest to set
political conditions for his hosts. Aside of any other aspects, the
 man
is a boor, and should have been ignored.

I'm not sure that's true. Haven't musicians and other performers
 used
   their
platform as a way to express agreement or disagreement with
 particular
political positions for ages?

Michael

   It is very rare in computer science to mix politics and work.
   Actually, this is true for most exact sciences.

   As for RMS, who is an advocate of freedom of rights, he has just
   agreed to accept money (travel costs) in exchange for giving away his
   freedom of speech.
   Tz'e Wolmad...

   /me don't see what the argument is about. I'll simply vote against
 RMS's
   and his politically inclined friends bs with my feet by _not_ going.
 End of
   story

  Yes, there is that.
  But thanks to the law passed last week we can also take affirmative
 action.
  I don't think that suing RMS or the FSF will be a good idea, or even
  feasible (IANAL and I'm pretty sure that this law doesn't hold for
  people/groups from abroad) but we might be able to sue the group
 financing
  his trip.
  Again, I'm not sure that that's even a good idea. But it is possible.

 While I find RMS's actions silly and damaging, I will take no part in
 such an action. I might even consider donating that group some money to
 cover their expences in case you actually go through with your actions.

 I'm for free speach here.

 Now, count to 10, relax a bit, read things through, and don't follow up
 on a flame fest.

Hey, I'm not saying we *should* sue, I'm just saying it's an option. And not
a good one.
We will alienate ourselves in the worldwide community of open software, and
probably burn several bridges which will be very hard to rebuild.
I too resent the whole idea of mixing computer science and politics. It
makes the whole thing stink like unwashed feet.
I'm just a little disappointed that the whole saga unraveled like this. I
had higher opinions of RMS before this.

 Oh, and: GetTheFacts: http://stallmanfacts.com/ .

 Cheers,

 --
 Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is
 http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's
 tzaf...@cohens.org.il ||  best
 tzaf...@debian.org|| friend

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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Etzion Bar-Noy

+1 to that.

Etzion
On Jul 17, 2011 8:07 PM, Dima (Dan) Yasny dya...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Orr Dunkelman orr.dunkel...@gmail.com
wrote:

 On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 7:19 PM, Michael Shiloh
 michaelshiloh1...@gmail.com  To be more general, it is unheard of
 for a prospective guest to set
  political conditions for his hosts. Aside of any other aspects, the
man
  is a boor, and should have been ignored.
 
 
  I'm not sure that's true. Haven't musicians and other performers used
 their
  platform as a way to express agreement or disagreement with particular
  political positions for ages?
 
  Michael

 It is very rare in computer science to mix politics and work.
 Actually, this is true for most exact sciences.

 As for RMS, who is an advocate of freedom of rights, he has just
 agreed to accept money (travel costs) in exchange for giving away his
 freedom of speech.
 Tz'e Wolmad...


 /me don't see what the argument is about. I'll simply vote against RMS's
and
 his politically inclined friends bs with my feet by _not_ going. End of
 story

 --
 Orr Dunkelman,
 orr.dunkel...@gmail.com

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 Regards,
 Dan Yasny
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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread geoffrey mendelson



On Jul 17, 2011, at 8:43 PM, Mordecha Behar wrote:
Hey, I'm not saying we should sue, I'm just saying it's an option.  
And not a good one.
We will alienate ourselves in the worldwide community of open  
software, and probably burn several bridges which will be very hard  
to rebuild.
I too resent the whole idea of mixing computer science and politics.  
It makes the whole thing stink like unwashed feet.
I'm just a little disappointed that the whole saga unraveled like  
this. I had higher opinions of RMS before this.





This is from Stalman's posting:  So I decided to follow my  
Palestinians hosts' boycott policy in the trip they organized, and I  
cancelled my speeches at Israeli universities. I apologize for not  
anticipating that this issue would arise. I have arranged two speeches  
at other venues in Israel, one in Haifa and one in Jaffa. Details can  
be found in fsf.org.


This pretty much says that he is supporting a boycott and that it's  
fsf.org's policy. IMHO he should be sued. I'm not going to do it, but  
if I were presented with a poll or petition would say so.


If he did not want to be offensive or politicize himself or the fsf,  
he could of said So I decided to not offend anyone.. but he did  
not he said that decided to follow ... the boycott.


To toss out some ad homynms, he's a blight on free speech and free  
software and he and his fsf have outlived their usefulness. He has  
crossed the line over which he should never cross, mixing free  
software with support of terrorists.



Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge.











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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Matan Ziv-Av


On Sun, 17 Jul 2011, geoffrey mendelson wrote:

To toss out some ad homynms, he's a blight on free speech and free software 
and he and his fsf have outlived their usefulness. He has crossed the line
over which he should never cross, mixing free software with support of 
terrorists.


You misspelled freedom fighters who wish to stop the occupation 
and the war crimes perpetrated by Israel.



--
Matan Ziv-Av. ma...@svgalib.org

Save Israel - Join the boycott on the settlements now.


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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Nadav Har'El

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011, Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda wrote about Re: Finally - A RMS 
talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details:
 And I guess also about his explanation:
 http://stallman.org/articles/palestine-trip.html

Unlike other people on this list (who already mentioned Hitler on this thread,
so I guess it should be officially over...), I personally do understand
Stallman's view - that basically this boycott isn't as terrible as terrorism,
so he'd rather see the Palestinians continue do things like this non-violent
boycott, instead of returning to violent terrorism.

That's all fine. But I don't understand why he seems to think that after
he supported this boycott, we (Israelis) would want to hear him talk -
whether he speaks in Jaffa, in Haifa, or in my back yard.

And I most of all don't understand the closing of his explanation:

  I hope that Free Software / Barmagiyat Horrah / Tochna Chofshit can
   provide an opportunity for Israelis and Palestinians to experience
   practical cooperation, and that this will make at least a small
   contribution to peace.

This is one of the ridiculous pieces of irony (sorry Richard if you're reading
this...) that I've read in a while.
Indeed - free software *can* and *should* bring Israelis, Palestinians,
Iranians, Indians, Pakistanis, Americans and everyone else together to do
something useful together. But you can't do this when suddenly some of these
free-software writers start to boycott the other free-softwre writers because
of the universities they study at, the place they work at, or just the place
they live in.

Richard, the boycott that your Palestinian hosts asked you to support may
sound to you justified, but no matter how you twist it around, it doesn't
help the cause of free software. It will mean fewer (if any) Israelis will
listen to your talk, it already means that many Israelis heard of free
software for the first time through this negative story (which already
appeared on the Israeli media), and it means that we lost a chance to
perhaps bring together Palestinian and Israeli free software software
writers and users - because now every such attempt will look to each side
as a loss in some sort of juvenile pissing contest - a failure of the
boycott or caving-in to one.

-- 
Nadav Har'El|  Sunday, Jul 17 2011, 16 Tammuz 5771
n...@math.technion.ac.il |-
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Learn from mistakes of others; you won't
http://nadav.harel.org.il   |live long enough to make them all yourself

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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Moish


On 17/07/2011 20:39, geoffrey mendelson wrote:


On Jul 17, 2011, at 8:43 PM, Mordecha Behar wrote:
Hey, I'm not saying we should sue, I'm just saying it's an option. 
And not a good one.
We will alienate ourselves in the worldwide community of open 
software, and probably burn several bridges which will be very hard 
to rebuild.
I too resent the whole idea of mixing computer science and politics. 
It makes the whole thing stink like unwashed feet.
I'm just a little disappointed that the whole saga unraveled like 
this. I had higher opinions of RMS before this.




This pretty much says that he is supporting a boycott and that it's 
fsf.org's policy. IMHO he should be sued. I'm not going to do it, but 
if I were presented with a poll or petition would say so.


If he did not want to be offensive or politicize himself or the fsf, 
he could of said So I decided to not offend anyone.. but he did 
not he said that decided to follow ... the boycott.


To toss out some ad homynms, he's a blight on free speech and free 
software and he and his fsf have outlived their usefulness. He has 
crossed the line over which he should never cross, mixing free 
software with support of terrorists.



Geoff.


Ad Hominem and Ad Rem:
  Have some of you gone mad ?!
  Gagging,  prosecution, do i hear execution ?

Perhaps he's an hypocrite feeble-minded-self-hating-jewish-leftists,  a 
member of J street, or god forbidden, a liberal,   SO WHAT?


BLOCKING free speech!  How DARE you!  Have you lost your mind !?

Some of you really frighten me because I know that most of my opinions 
should have been kept to myself :)



-- Moish

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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details


On 07/17/2011 07:19 PM, Michael Shiloh wrote:



On 07/17/2011 09:15 AM, Stan Goodman wrote:



To be more general, it is unheard of for a prospective guest to set
political conditions for his hosts. Aside of any other aspects, the man
is a boor, and should have been ignored.



I'm not sure that's true. Haven't musicians and other performers used 
their platform as a way to express agreement or disagreement with 
particular political positions for ages?


Michael
Expressing agreement or disagreement is not what I said. I said making 
political conditions for deigning to accept the invitation (and, 
parenthetically, taking the hosts money). I did not mention e.g. 
Barenboim, but that is a whole nuther story. Stallman has the chutzpa to 
announce that he won't come unless we endorse his politics, those of a 
man who lives 10,000km away, and doesn't have to be frisked before he 
goes into a supermarket, and who would laugh at you if you suggested 
that he do what it takes to vote here. If the invitation has already 
been issued and accepted, I can only hope that nobody shows up except 
the committee, and that those worthies be left to explain to him why he 
is speaking to an empty hall.


--
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel


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Re: Fwd: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

On 07/17/2011 08:43 PM, Mordecha Behar wrote:

-- Forwarded message --
From: *Mordecha Behar* mordecha.be...@mail.huji.ac.il 
mailto:mordecha.be...@mail.huji.ac.il

Date: Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details
To: Tzafrir Cohen tzaf...@cohens.org.il mailto:tzaf...@cohens.org.il

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Tzafrir Cohen tzaf...@cohens.org.il 
mailto:tzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote:

Written off-list,

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 08:26:39PM +0300, Mordecha Behar wrote:
 2011/7/17 Dima (Dan) Yasny dya...@gmail.com
mailto:dya...@gmail.com

  On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Orr Dunkelman
orr.dunkel...@gmail.com mailto:orr.dunkel...@gmail.comwrote:

  On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 7:19 PM, Michael Shiloh
  michaelshiloh1...@gmail.com
mailto:michaelshiloh1...@gmail.com  To be more general, it is
unheard of
  for a prospective guest to set
   political conditions for his hosts. Aside of any other
aspects, the man
   is a boor, and should have been ignored.

   I'm not sure that's true. Haven't musicians and other
performers used
  their
   platform as a way to express agreement or disagreement with
particular
   political positions for ages?

   Michael

  It is very rare in computer science to mix politics and work.
  Actually, this is true for most exact sciences.

  As for RMS, who is an advocate of freedom of rights, he has just
  agreed to accept money (travel costs) in exchange for giving
away his
  freedom of speech.
  Tz'e Wolmad...

  /me don't see what the argument is about. I'll simply vote
against RMS's
  and his politically inclined friends bs with my feet by _not_
going. End of
  story

 Yes, there is that.
 But thanks to the law passed last week we can also take
affirmative action.
 I don't think that suing RMS or the FSF will be a good idea, or even
 feasible (IANAL and I'm pretty sure that this law doesn't hold for
 people/groups from abroad) but we might be able to sue the group
financing
 his trip.
 Again, I'm not sure that that's even a good idea. But it is
possible.

While I find RMS's actions silly and damaging, I will take no part in
such an action. I might even consider donating that group some
money to
cover their expences in case you actually go through with your
actions.

I'm for free speach here.

Now, count to 10, relax a bit, read things through, and don't
follow up
on a flame fest.

Nobody has challenged his right to free speech. Speech is not the issue. 
Personally, I would not be offended if he where to visit each of the 
major cities and get up on a soapbox at main intersections to express 
his views. What he is trying to do is to inflict his opinions of a 
conflict of which he can't know very much, on an entire organization, 
and to extract the agreement of that public to the rectitude of his 
views -- although they may well have views that are quite different. 
That is what makes him a boor, ya'ani, Am haAretz, and offensive.

Hey, I'm not saying we *should* sue, I'm just saying it's an option. 
And not a good one.
We will alienate ourselves in the worldwide community of open 
software, and probably burn several bridges which will be very hard to 
rebuild.
I too resent the whole idea of mixing computer science and politics. 
It makes the whole thing stink like unwashed feet.
I'm just a little disappointed that the whole saga unraveled like 
this. I had higher opinions of RMS before this.

Oh, and: GetTheFacts: http://stallmanfacts.com/ .

Cheers,

--
Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org
mailto:tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's
tzaf...@cohens.org.il mailto:tzaf...@cohens.org.il |
   |  best
tzaf...@debian.org mailto:tzaf...@debian.org|  
 | friend

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Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details


On 07/17/2011 11:20 PM, Moish wrote:

On 17/07/2011 20:39, geoffrey mendelson wrote:


On Jul 17, 2011, at 8:43 PM, Mordecha Behar wrote:
Hey, I'm not saying we should sue, I'm just saying it's an option. 
And not a good one.
We will alienate ourselves in the worldwide community of open 
software, and probably burn several bridges which will be very hard 
to rebuild.
I too resent the whole idea of mixing computer science and politics. 
It makes the whole thing stink like unwashed feet.
I'm just a little disappointed that the whole saga unraveled like 
this. I had higher opinions of RMS before this.




This pretty much says that he is supporting a boycott and that it's 
fsf.org's policy. IMHO he should be sued. I'm not going to do it, but 
if I were presented with a poll or petition would say so.


If he did not want to be offensive or politicize himself or the fsf, 
he could of said So I decided to not offend anyone.. but he did 
not he said that decided to follow ... the boycott.


To toss out some ad homynms, he's a blight on free speech and free 
software and he and his fsf have outlived their usefulness. He has 
crossed the line over which he should never cross, mixing free 
software with support of terrorists.



Geoff.


Ad Hominem and Ad Rem:
  Have some of you gone mad ?!
  Gagging,  prosecution, do i hear execution ?

Perhaps he's an hypocrite feeble-minded-self-hating-jewish-leftists,  
a member of J street, or god forbidden, a liberal,   SO WHAT?


BLOCKING free speech!  How DARE you!  Have you lost your mind !?


Arguably, he alone (in concert with his Palestinian hosts), is the one 
limiting free speech. Nobody here has intimated that he can't voice his 
views, whatever they are, although there was some talk about expressing 
them in the name of FSF. The discussion has nothing whatever to dowith 
free speech.


The fact is, by the way, that the right of free speech has nothing to do 
with individuals at all, but is entirely a fence against government. The 
government of a free country may not forbid expression of protected 
speech (there are limitations to that as well). Individuals or groups 
are certainly not obligated to listen. You can't holler free speech if 
somebody insists upon telling you his views that you don't want to hear. 
The only free-speech issue that would arise in connection with Stallman 
would be if the Government should forbid or punish him for expressing them.


The quotations above, beginning with Ad hominem and ending with Have 
you lost your mind!? were written by someone who never sat in a Civics 
class, and who has only the foggiest notion of what free speech 
actually means.


Some of you really frighten me because I know that most of my opinions 
should have been kept to myself :)





-- Moish

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--
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Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel


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[RMS11] Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Omer Zak

On Sun, 2011-07-17 at 22:58 +0300, Stan Goodman wrote:
 Arguably, he alone (in concert with his Palestinian hosts), is the one 
 limiting free speech.

This statement does not correspond to the facts of the case.

The principle that RMS is violating is not the principle of free speech.
The principle being violated is that of communications and cooperation
in pursuit of a worthwhile endeavor (academic research or Free Software
development) overriding political differences.

Granted, the principle of academic research/Free Software development
cooperation could force us to swallow rather giant foul-tasting frogs.
Such as hypothetical cooperation with the Hizbollah in development and
perfection of FriBidi or an hypothetical collaboration with Nazis in a
project of developing a Free genealogical software, with accompanying
database of freely-available genealogical information.

--- Omer
-- 
Palestinians did not firmly and vocally and strongly denounce the Hannover 
attack 
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/24/german-youths-attack-jewi_n_623922.html)
 but rather supported the attack, even though it is yet another proof why Jews 
need their own country in which they can live safely.
My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html


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[RMS11] Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details

2011-07-17 Thread Moish


  
  
On 17/07/2011 21:58, Stan Goodman wrote:
On
  07/17/2011 11:20 PM, Moish wrote:
  
  On 17/07/2011 20:39, geoffrey mendelson
wrote:


  
  On Jul 17, 2011, at 8:43 PM, Mordecha Behar wrote:
  
  Hey, I'm not saying we should sue, I'm
just saying it's an option. And not a good one.

We will alienate ourselves in the worldwide community of
open software, and probably burn several bridges which will
be very hard to rebuild.

I too resent the whole idea of mixing computer science and
politics. It makes the whole thing stink like unwashed feet.

I'm just a little disappointed that the whole saga unraveled
like this. I had higher opinions of RMS before this.


  
  
  This pretty much says that he is supporting a boycott and that
  it's fsf.org's policy. IMHO he should be sued. I'm not going
  to do it, but if I were presented with a poll or petition
  would say so.
  
  
  If he did not want to be offensive or politicize himself or
  the fsf, he could of said "So I decided to not offend
  anyone.." but he did not he said that "decided to follow
  ... the boycott".
  
  
  To toss out some ad homynms, he's a blight on free speech and
  free software and he and his fsf have outlived their
  usefulness. He has crossed the line over which he should never
  cross, mixing free software with support of terrorists.
  
  
  
  Geoff.
  
  

Ad Hominem and Ad Rem:

  Have some of you gone mad ?!

  Gagging,  prosecution, do i hear execution ?


Perhaps he's an hypocrite
feeble-minded-self-hating-jewish-leftists,  a member of J
street, or god forbidden, a liberal,   SO WHAT?


BLOCKING free speech!  How DARE you!  Have you lost your mind !?

  
  
  Arguably, he alone (in concert with his Palestinian hosts), is the
  one limiting free speech. Nobody here has intimated that he can't
  voice his views, whatever they are, although there was some talk
  about expressing them in the name of FSF. The discussion has
  nothing whatever to dowith free speech.
  
  
  The fact is, by the way, that the right of free speech has nothing
  to do with individuals at all, but is entirely a fence against
  government. The government of a free country may not forbid
  _expression_ of protected speech (there are limitations to that as
  well). Individuals or groups are certainly not obligated to
  listen. You can't holler "free speech" if somebody insists upon
  telling you his views that you don't want to hear. The only
  free-speech issue that would arise in connection with Stallman
  would be if the Government should forbid or punish him for
  expressing them.
  
  
  The quotations above, beginning with "Ad hominem" and ending with
  "Have you lost your mind!?" were written by someone who never sat
  in a Civics class, and who has only the foggiest notion of what
  "free speech" actually means.
  


So, free speech has nothing to do with individuals?  well,  isn't
you right of free speech allows you to say
that I only the foggiest notion of "free speech"?

Oh my oh my,  and I expected gushing intelect and shrewd arguments.

And that's the end of me trolling :) 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary

  1ad ho·mi·nem
   adj \(ˈ)ad-ˈhä-mə-ˌnem, -nəm\
Definition of AD HOMINEM

  
1
 :
appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect 
  
  
2
 :
marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character
rather than by an answer to the contentions made 
  



  ad rem
   adv or adj \(ˌ)ad-ˈrem\
Definition of AD REM

  
 : to
the point or purpose : relevantly
  
  


-- 
Moish
  



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Re: [RMS11] Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details