Re: [WSG] Problem with Navigation in IE 6

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Carolyn Diaz wrote:

Thanks so much! I should have seen that right off. Isn't that also known as
the Holly hack or some such thing?


That's right...

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Re: [WSG] Rewriting site - help, please.

[David Hucklesby]

Andrew Maben wrote:

> I'm rewriting my site in what I hope is the 'right' way - semantic, 
> standards-compliant, accessible.

[...]

> Any help with that (and any other comments) would be much appreciated:
 (just the index page, any deeper and you'll find 
PHP errors)

luiz gustavo aleagi nunes replied in part:
>
> Another tip, try to code your HTML with XHTML 1.1 Strict. It's a lot easier 
> to reache
> accessibility standards because it is very hard and demand semantics all the 
> time.
>
I think you mean XHTML 1.0 Strict, no? XHTML 1.1 is not for documents
sent as HTML. As the World's Favorite Browser won't deal with anything
else for your pages, I suggest you don't use it.

Re: your site, I don't seem to be able to reach it at the moment to help.

Cordially,
David
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Re: [WSG] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.

[Shlomi Asaf]

Please ignore my last email
the layout i sent is not valid

the one Tee presented to us is the correct one.

A Question:
using the layout above VS. the same layout except the row divs now will
clear the Row. clear:both.
what do you think is the better & correct layout?
a "table" like or a clearing one?

they r both semantic the same, and amount of code elements.

Sol


On 2/23/07, Shlomi Asaf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Ive uploaded a page describing my approach to "table" list design:
http://www.webcssdesign.34sp.com/me/aTableLikeList.htm

i think a List would be a much more semantic way to describe this kind of
layout

UL{
list-style:none;
margin:0;
padding:0;
display:table;
width:80%
}
DIV{
display:table-row;
zoom:1
}
LI{
display:cell;
float:left;
width: 32.9%;
border:1px dotted #000
}




Title
Text


Title
Text


Title
Text


   

Title
Text


Title
Text


Title
Text




i could have used UL to describe each row, but all the LI elements are
brothers so i sepereated them with the non semantic element- DIV.
i placed the unValid property- Zoom for IE6 support. to give the div a
layout. without it the table-row wouldn't had work.

thank you a lot Tee, u helped me a lot!

Solomon

On 2/23/07, Shlomi Asaf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> what do you think suppose to be in tables?
> does a list represent better a list of cloths and there details, ordered
> in a gallery layout?
> does a table represent a tabular data. what is that exactly? only
> numbers or maybe also cloths and there details?
>
>
>
> On 2/23/07, Christian Montoya < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On 2/23/07, Shlomi Asaf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Thanks a Lot Tee
> > > what i don't understand is- you create a table layout, so why not
> > using a
> > > Table if u already has the structure, and even a little more
> > expensive then
> > > table- you have another element- the clearing one.
> >
> > Because using the table wouldn't be semantically correct... it's for
> > things that aren't meant to be put in tables, but making it look like
> > a table would acheive the visual effect you want.
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Christian Montoya
> > christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com
> >
> >
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Re: [WSG] Please Help! Hover not working to trigger display:block in FF

['Scott Swabey']

Cole Kuryakin wrote:

Hello All –


Hi Cole

 > I’ve set one of the li’s as css trigger (via a class name) in order to

show a drop-down menu (a UL) that has a default value of display:none.

Unfortunately, nothing I try will initiate the declaration containing 
the display:block.


You will need to nest the #industry ul within the li you wish it to 
display under to target it with the css:


Industry

Immigration Information
POEA Regulations
Disciplinary Guidelines
POEA Sample Contract
Questions and Answers



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Re: [WSG] Please Help! Hover not working to trigger display:block in FF

[John Faulds]

The dropdown menu's s'posed to be nested within the  from which it's  
to drop down from - it can't be a completely separate ul.


On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:08:30 +1000, Cole Kuryakin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hello All -


I've done this successfully in one previous project, but can't for the  
life

of me understand what I'm doing wrong now.


I've got a UL nav bar with a number of li's.


I've set one of the li's as css trigger (via a class name) in order to  
show

a drop-down menu (a UL) that has a default value of display:none.


Unfortunately, nothing I try will initiate the declaration containing the
display:block.


My CSS and test.html page validates so I don't know where I'm going  
wrong.



Could someone please show me the error of my ways?


To see this live, please go here: http://www.x7m.us/_problems/test.htm  
and
hover over the "Industry" li . of course, you won't see anything happen  
as

this is the crux of my problem.


HTML and CSS copied below for convenience.


Appreciate any and all guidance on how to fix this


Cole


HTML




http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd";>

http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";>



/>















Home

Industry /*class .test is suppose to be
the trigger*/

Clientele

Partners

Careers

About

Contact






Immigration Information

POEA Regulations

Disciplinary Guidelines

POEA Sample Contract

Questions and Answers












CSS




/* --- Global Properties
--- */


* {

margin: 0;

padding: 0;

border: none;

}


html{

height: 100%;

}


body{

min-width: 770px;

min-height: 101%;

text-align: center;


font-family: Arial, Verdana, Tahoma, Helvetica, Geneva,
sans-serif;

font-weight: normal;

font-size: 100%;


background-color: #000;

color: #000;

}


#wrapper {

position: relative;

width: 770px;

height: 500px;

margin: 0px auto;

text-align: left;

color: inherit;


background-color: #FFF;

}


ul {

list-style: none;

}


/* --- Nav Top
 */


#navTop { /*THIS IS A UL*/

height: 42px;

padding-left: 10px;

padding-top: 3px;

background-color: #00CC00;

}


#navTop li {

display: inline;

border-right: 1px solid white;

padding-top: 12px;

padding-bottom: 24px;

padding-right: 26px;

padding-left: 6px;

font-weight: bold;

font-size: 0.75em;

}


#navTop li.noLeftPadding {

padding-left: 0;

}


/* --- Drop Down Menus
 */


#industry {

position: absolute;

top: 45px;

left: 70px;

display: none;  /*INDUSTRY UL IS HIDDEN BY DEFAULT*/

}


ul#navTop li.test:hover ul#industry { /*I THINK THIS IS THE PROBLEM
AREA*/

display: block;

}


li.test {

cursor: pointer;

}


.menu {

background-color: #FFCC99;

}


.menu li {

padding: 5px 10px;

font-size: 0.75em;

border-bottom: 1px solid black;

}






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Re: [WSG] Problem with Navigation in IE 6

[Carolyn Diaz]

Thanks so much! I should have seen that right off. Isn't that also known as
the Holly hack or some such thing?

On 2/23/07, Gunlaug Sørtun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Carolyn Diaz wrote:
> http://netprojx.com/STU/facts.htm.
>
> The problem is the left navigation in IE 6. The sub elements or 2nd
> level of
> the navigation loses its background, sometimes the color, sometimes the
> image...in other words, extremely buggy behavior!

Add...
li {height: 1%;}
...or another suitable 'hasLayout'[1] trigger, to those list-items.

That's one IE/win bug that is fixed in IE7.

regards
   Georg

[1]http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html
--
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Re: [WSG] Problem with Navigation in IE 6

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Carolyn Diaz wrote:

http://netprojx.com/STU/facts.htm.

The problem is the left navigation in IE 6. The sub elements or 2nd 
level of

the navigation loses its background, sometimes the color, sometimes the
image...in other words, extremely buggy behavior!


Add...
li {height: 1%;}
...or another suitable 'hasLayout'[1] trigger, to those list-items.

That's one IE/win bug that is fixed in IE7.

regards
Georg

[1]http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] with web standards

[TuteC]

And the link is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gmP4nk0EOE

It's been sent, anyway.
Best regards;
Eugenio Costa.

On 2/23/07, Rolf SF <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Someone just sent me this youtube link, titled "The machine is us/ing
us" - it's actually a celebration of web standards in a sense, so I
thought I'd pass it on. For those that prefer to separate fun from
work, in addition to separating content from presentation, you could
save it for later ;-)

Rolf



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Re: [WSG] alternative to target="_blank" in xhtml 1.1

[L. Robinson]

*/"Gallagher, Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:

Users of the search engine on my intranet site wold like to have the
results open in a new page. Can anyone suggest a valid method to do
this in xhtml 1.1?


http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200603/the_target_attribute_and_opening_new_windows/

http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200610/opening_new_windows_with_javascript_version_12/

lr


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Re: [WSG] alternative to target="_blank" in xhtml 1.1

[Minh D. Tran]

Hi Robin,

Another way to open a new window is

http://www.anotherlink.com";
 onclick="window.open(this); return false;" title="Sample Link">

Let me know if this works.

Minh Tran



"Gallagher, Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: sec: u alternative to 
target="_blank" in xhtml 1.1 Users of the search engine on my intranet site 
wold like to have the results open in a new page. Can anyone suggest a valid 
method to do this in xhtml 1.1?
  Thanks 
  Robin Gallagher  
DSTO Intranet & Internet Manager  
(03) 9626 7386 
 
 
  
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-
The fish are biting.
 Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

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Re: [WSG] Internationalization for hindi (data getting corrupted while sendng from jsp to action)

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 23 Feb 2007, at 06:55:01, Nisha Kumari wrote:


Hi

I have done all following changes in my jsp page. I am using struts  
and

even have saved my Hindi text in a application recourse file and have
save that file in a UTF-8 encoding format.

I can see in browser the encoding is getting set to UTF-8 because  
of the

jsp tag (<[EMAIL PROTECTED] encoding="UTF-8"
contentType="text/html;charset=UTF-8"%>).

But still its showing me something other than Hindi (may be garbag). I
tried commenting out the page encoding from jsp page and then I
explicitly changed the page encoding from browser then the text  
appears

perfectly in Hindi.

What could be the reason?


As manually changing the encoding in the browser shows the Hindi  
correctly, you are obviously sending the correct data, so that's not  
the problem.


When the browser attempts to identify the character set of the  
document, it looks first for a Content-Type HTTP header, and only if  
that isn't found does it look for a  element specifying the  
character set - see [1]. I don't know Struts, but a look at the JSP  
documentation suggests that you should be using "pageEncoding"  
instead of "encoding" in your @page directive. [2] I don't know if  
this affects the Content-Type header, or just creates a   
element, though.


If changing that doesn't work, then I would suggest looking at the  
raw HTTP headers for your page, to see if the Content-Type header is  
correctly specifying UTF-8. If you use Firefox, there are various  
ways to do this via extensions such as Firebug, although going to  
Tools menu->Page Info may tell you what you need to know. Assuming  
you're using Microsoft Windows, a free application called Fiddler,  
written by a chap at Microsoft, will allow you to examine the raw  
HTTP traffic between your browser and your server [3]. If it turns  
out that the Content-Type header in the HTTP response is overriding  
any Meta element in the document, then you need to change your server  
configuration; at that point, my lack of knowledge of your  
configuration leaves me unable to help any further :-(


[1] 
[2] 

[3] 

HTH,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Matthew Pennell]

On 2/22/07, Designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


So, my (genuine) question is, is this really so wrong?  So long as it's
kept really simple, which way is easier to read in a screen reader?
(Include the floated and hacked to death standards version as a third
alternative too).

It seems to me that pragmatism can sometimes outbenefit the religion of
standards - and I'd really like some real world feedback on when such a
table approach causes real problems.   (Yes, I know it's not truly
semantic, and I agree that it's a problem because of that).



The one killer thing that CSS allows you to do, but layout tables don't (and
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it yet) is that you can rewrite your CSS
to display the contents of the page in a completely different place without
touching the underlying markup  - and this is NOT possible when using a
table.

So, for example, you have used a single layout table to create a 3-column
layout, and built your 10,000 page site using that method. The day before
launch, the CEO decides that the left and right sidebars should be swapped
over; even with a CMS, you probably have dozens of template files to edit
and re-arrange - at worst, you have to edit 10,000 individual files! If
you'd used a pure CSS solution, the only change you have to make is in your
layout.css file. This is the key benefit of the separation of presentation
and content, and why you should avoid using tables for layout.

It is also relevant when you consider using alternative stylesheets, zoom
layouts, user-defined settings, etc. Look at www.adactio.com/journal and try
out the alternative styles - it would have been impossible to do this if he
was using a table (even a simple one) for layout.

Matthew.


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Designer]

Martin Heiden wrote:

Bob,

on Friday, February 23, 2007 at 12:19 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote:




content
different content




This can then be CSS'd of course, in the normal way.



The important point though, is that the number of cells in a grid should
be restricted to an agreed number (4?) AND most importantly, they cannot
be nested!  This would provide a solution to the often cumbersome markup
required to produce equal height columns, It would stop 'nestingitis' 
and - it would be semantic!  It isn't really presentational either, any

more than  is . . .


I don't think that grid nor gridcell are semantic. In fact it doesn't
say anything about semantics just about presentation. It is an much
cleaner approach to set a div to display: table/table-cell (but the
wording should be changed to grid or something like that...) The div
doesn't imply any semantics either, just structure, but that is what
is needed in this case.

regards

  Martin



Yeah, that'd do fine. (I told you I was making it up as I went along . . 
. :-))



--
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www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Designer]

Rimantas Liubertas wrote:

One of the (many) things I wish for is a  tag.   Something along
the lines of the following (made up as I go along, so don't nitpick too
much :-)):


content
different content


This can then be CSS'd of course, in the normal way.

<...>

(I can dream, can't I? :-))



http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-layout/


Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/


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Roll on!  (thanks)

--
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www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Rimantas Liubertas]

One of the (many) things I wish for is a  tag.   Something along
the lines of the following (made up as I go along, so don't nitpick too
much :-)):


content
different content


This can then be CSS'd of course, in the normal way.

<...>

(I can dream, can't I? :-))



http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-layout/


Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Martin Heiden]

Bob,

on Friday, February 23, 2007 at 12:19 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote:


> 
> content
> different content
> 

> This can then be CSS'd of course, in the normal way.

> The important point though, is that the number of cells in a grid should
> be restricted to an agreed number (4?) AND most importantly, they cannot
> be nested!  This would provide a solution to the often cumbersome markup
> required to produce equal height columns, It would stop 'nestingitis' 
> and - it would be semantic!  It isn't really presentational either, any
> more than  is . . .

I don't think that grid nor gridcell are semantic. In fact it doesn't
say anything about semantics just about presentation. It is an much
cleaner approach to set a div to display: table/table-cell (but the
wording should be changed to grid or something like that...) The div
doesn't imply any semantics either, just structure, but that is what
is needed in this case.

regards

  Martin

 





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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Designer]

Barney Carroll wrote:



But at the end of the day, {display: table} is just as ridiculous as 
div{display:inline} or span{display:block}. Besides, when I made 
table-based designs I often found myself nesting tables within tables, 
and I ended up with horribly deep code (a bit like Google ads, only for 
a reason). With modern CSS we can have table-cells without using table 
bodies or rows or even tables... It makes life a lot simpler.



Regards,
Barney



One of the (many) things I wish for is a  tag.   Something along 
the lines of the following (made up as I go along, so don't nitpick too 
much :-)):



content
different content


This can then be CSS'd of course, in the normal way.

The important point though, is that the number of cells in a grid should 
be restricted to an agreed number (4?) AND most importantly, they cannot 
be nested!  This would provide a solution to the often cumbersome markup 
required to produce equal height columns, It would stop 'nestingitis' 
and - it would be semantic!  It isn't really presentational either, any 
more than  is . . .


(I can dream, can't I? :-))

--
Bob

www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Barney Carroll]

TuteC wrote:

and a screen reader can read the contents.


Eugenio, screen readers have no problem with tables. What you are 
talking about is a myth.


Bob, remember that tables have all sorts of properties that are not down 
to style. For instance, there is the artificial (in that it isn't nested 
in the markup) grouping of columns, descriptive headings with clear 
reference, etc.


But at the end of the day, {display: table} is just as ridiculous as 
div{display:inline} or span{display:block}. Besides, when I made 
table-based designs I often found myself nesting tables within tables, 
and I ended up with horribly deep code (a bit like Google ads, only for 
a reason). With modern CSS we can have table-cells without using table 
bodies or rows or even tables... It makes life a lot simpler.



Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.

[Shlomi Asaf]

Ive uploaded a page describing my approach to "table" list design:
http://www.webcssdesign.34sp.com/me/aTableLikeList.htm

i think a List would be a much more semantic way to describe this kind of
layout

UL{
   list-style:none;
   margin:0;
   padding:0;
   display:table;
   width:80%
}
DIV{
   display:table-row;
   zoom:1
}
LI{
   display:cell;
   float:left;
   width:32.9%;
   border:1px dotted #000
}


   
   
   Title
   Text
   
   
   Title
   Text
   
   
   Title
   Text
   
   
  
   
   Title
   Text
   
   
   Title
   Text
   
   
   Title
   Text
   
   


i could have used UL to describe each row, but all the LI elements are
brothers so i sepereated them with the non semantic element- DIV.
i placed the unValid property- Zoom for IE6 support. to give the div a
layout. without it the table-row wouldn't had work.

thank you a lot Tee, u helped me a lot!

Solomon

On 2/23/07, Shlomi Asaf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


what do you think suppose to be in tables?
does a list represent better a list of cloths and there details, ordered
in a gallery layout?
does a table represent a tabular data. what is that exactly? only numbers
or maybe also cloths and there details?



On 2/23/07, Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 2/23/07, Shlomi Asaf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Thanks a Lot Tee
> > what i don't understand is- you create a table layout, so why not
> using a
> > Table if u already has the structure, and even a little more expensive
> then
> > table- you have another element- the clearing one.
>
> Because using the table wouldn't be semantically correct... it's for
> things that aren't meant to be put in tables, but making it look like
> a table would acheive the visual effect you want.
>
> --
> --
> Christian Montoya
> christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com
>
>
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Re: [WSG] alternative to target="_blank" in xhtml 1.1

[Thierry Koblentz]

Gallagher, Robin wrote:
> Users of the search engine on my intranet site wold like to have the
> results open in a new page. Can anyone suggest a valid method to do
> this in xhtml 1.1?

This solution requires no extra markup:
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/popup_window_with_no_extra_markup.asp

HTH,
---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com


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Re: [WSG] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.

[Shlomi Asaf]

what do you think suppose to be in tables?
does a list represent better a list of cloths and there details, ordered in
a gallery layout?
does a table represent a tabular data. what is that exactly? only numbers or
maybe also cloths and there details?



On 2/23/07, Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 2/23/07, Shlomi Asaf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks a Lot Tee
> what i don't understand is- you create a table layout, so why not using
a
> Table if u already has the structure, and even a little more expensive
then
> table- you have another element- the clearing one.

Because using the table wouldn't be semantically correct... it's for
things that aren't meant to be put in tables, but making it look like
a table would acheive the visual effect you want.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com


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Re: [WSG] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.

[Christian Montoya]

On 2/23/07, Shlomi Asaf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Thanks a Lot Tee
what i don't understand is- you create a table layout, so why not using a
Table if u already has the structure, and even a little more expensive then
table- you have another element- the clearing one.


Because using the table wouldn't be semantically correct... it's for
things that aren't meant to be put in tables, but making it look like
a table would acheive the visual effect you want.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com


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Re: [WSG] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.

[Shlomi Asaf]

Thanks a Lot Tee
what i don't understand is- you create a table layout, so why not using a
Table if u already has the structure, and even a little more expensive then
table- you have another element- the clearing one.


On 2/22/07, Tee G. Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On Feb 21, 2007, at 3:29 PM, Shlomi Asaf wrote:

> thanks alot Christian for your answer, u given me data that i
> wasent aware about.
>
>
> What you (and everyone else) need is display:table and
> display:table-cell, but unfortunately these features are just not
> supported in enough browsers yet.

Well, I used the method for a site. Doesn't work for  IE Mac 5.2 but
this browser support was not needed.

Work for IE 5.5 and above, all Gecko broswer except Netscape 4.x
which is expected. IE is given 100% height, overflow hidden, negative
paddings and float. I would say the browser support is good enough to
make it on commercial site.


http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=325739
http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/sh-all/home_loggedout-new.html


quick example for your desired layout

#wrap {display: table}
div.content {display: table-row}
div.float {display: cell }



 first column
 second column
 third  column






 first column second row
 second column second row
 third  column second row




Safari can be a bit tricky, it seems that without #wrap, other
browser stills display well. For some strange reason, padding didn't
seem to work for .float, as a result I was forced to use white thick
borders to seperate each block. There were times client requested
blocks position be shifted, thus messed up Safari quite a bit, any
inner content wrap (in my case, the table) without width declared
makes Safari wacky too.

Clear both absolutely needed for each row.

All credit goes to Georg as without his pointer and help, I was not
able to do my job for this layout.

Hope this helps!

tee





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Re: [WSG] alternative to target="_blank" in xhtml 1.1

[Steve Olive]

On Friday 23 February 2007 17:35, Tim wrote:
> Easy. Tell them to "Right click" the search button and open results in
> a new window.
> Anything else will fail to validate as a strict doctype and be less
> accessible.
>
> Tim
> ]
>
> On 23/02/2007, at 5:09 PM, Gallagher, Robin wrote:
> > Users of the search engine on my intranet site wold like to have the
> > results open in a new page. Can anyone suggest a valid method to do
> > this in xhtml 1.1?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Robin Gallagher

Hi,

The alternate is to use JavaScript:

window.open('url to open','window name','attribute1,attribute2')

IMHO, if a significant proportion of users are requesting this feature, you 
should offer users the option of a new window with one button and the same 
window or a tab with just a text link.

This option will get a number of standardistas upset - but look at the total 
site traffic, not just the requests for this "feature", and then make your 
decision.


-- 
Regards,

Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions
URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mobile: 0407 224 251
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consider intelligence the ability to
think about matters on your own and
ask a lot of skeptical questions to 
get at the real truth, not just what
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RE: [WSG] Internationalization for hindi (data getting corrupted while sendng from jsp to action)

[Nisha Kumari]

Hi 

I have done all following changes in my jsp page. I am using struts and
even have saved my Hindi text in a application recourse file and have
save that file in a UTF-8 encoding format. 

I can see in browser the encoding is getting set to UTF-8 because of the
jsp tag (<[EMAIL PROTECTED] encoding="UTF-8"
contentType="text/html;charset=UTF-8"%>).

But still its showing me something other than Hindi (may be garbag). I
tried commenting out the page encoding from jsp page and then I
explicitly changed the page encoding from browser then the text appears
perfectly in Hindi. 

What could be the reason? 

Regards,
Nisha.


-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:11 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Internationalization for hindi (data getting
corrupted while sendng from jsp to action)

On Feb 22, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Nisha Kumari wrote:
> I am trying to implement internationalization for my site. But when I
am
> trying to enter some Hindi text in a text box (struts html:text) the
> value I m getting in my action is not expected one. Getting some
> corrupted value rather than Hindi entered text.
>
> I have set charset to utf-8 in the jsp page. Do I need to do any thing
> more?

This is a little off topic for this list, but you need to check that you

have handled all the encoding issues correctly.  You need to declare 
both the encoding of the actual JSP file and the encoding served to 
browsers.  Unfortunately, JSP defaults to ISO-8859-1 instead of UTF-8, 
but it's relatively easy to handle using the @page directive at the top 
of every JSP file.

<[EMAIL PROTECTED] encoding="UTF-8" contentType="text/html;charset=UTF-8"%>

The encoding attribute specifies the actual encoding of the file (you 
need to ensure your editor is actually saving in UTF-8).  The 
contentType attribute specifies the HTTP Content-Type header to be sent 
to UAs.  If the  2 declared encodings differ, then JSP will transcode it

before sending.

Ideally, there should be a way to set these as defaults in web.xml for 
the application server, but I've never successfully found a way to do
it.

You should then verify that the document received by browses is actually

encoded in UTF-8.  If you've done the above correctly, it will be, but 
check anyway.

Browsers will submit form data in the same encoding as the page.  So 
unless the user explicitly changes it from UTF-8, then it will be UTF-8.

  Finally, you need to make sure your form processing on the server side

is actually accepting and interpreting the form submission as UTF-8.  It

should do so if you added the @page directive correctly.

-- 
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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Re: [WSG] alternative to target="_blank" in xhtml 1.1

[Lindsay Evans]

On 2/23/07, Gallagher, Robin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Users of the search engine on my intranet site wold like to have the results
open in a new page. Can anyone suggest a valid method to do this in xhtml
1.1?


Hi Robin,

Roger Johansson has a pretty good (and easy to implement) script:
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200610/opening_new_windows_with_javascript_version_12/

I'd also suggest having the open in new window functionality as an
option that the users can disable, if they feel so inclined. Or,
ideally, as something they can opt-in for.

--
Lindsay Evans
http://lindsayevans.com/


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Re: [WSG] alternative to target="_blank" in xhtml 1.1

[Tim]

Easy. Tell them to "Right click" the search button and open results in 
a new window.
Anything else will fail to validate as a strict doctype and be less 
accessible.


Tim
]
On 23/02/2007, at 5:09 PM, Gallagher, Robin wrote:

Users of the search engine on my intranet site wold like to have the 
results open in a new page. Can anyone suggest a valid method to do 
this in xhtml 1.1?


Thanks

Robin Gallagher
DSTO Intranet & Internet Manager
(03) 9626 7386



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The Editor
Heretic Press
http://www.hereticpress.com
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [WSG] IE footer problem at low resolution

[Lyn Patterson]

Check out footerStickAlt from the man in blue - 
http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2005/08/29/
Your css looks similar - you might read through his write-up and see 
if there are some clues. I notice that he uses position: relative for 
the footer, which you don't, and that might keep the footer in the 
normal flow. Just a thought.
Thanks Rolf - looked at several options for footer sticking - will start 
again.


Lyn



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Re: [WSG] IE footer problem at low resolution

[Lyn Patterson]

* html, body { height: 100%;}
* html #container {height: 1%;}

The first one is wrong because there's a comma in there and you're 
applying a rule that you already have on the body and the second one 
isn't needed because you've already applied a height to #container.

Thanks for that John - I can see that now!



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Re: [WSG] IE footer problem at low resolution

[Rolf SF]

Lynn,

Check out footerStickAlt from the man in blue - http:// 
www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2005/08/29/
Your css looks similar - you might read through his write-up and see  
if there are some clues. I notice that he uses position: relative for  
the footer, which you don't, and that might keep the footer in the  
normal flow. Just a thought.


Rolf

On Feb 22, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Lyn Patterson wrote:



It's margin-bottom: -40px on #container which is causing the  
problem. If it's there to make the footer stick to the bottom, you  
might want to look at a different implementation.

Thanks John but having removed it, the problem remains.





http://www.westernwebdesign.com.au/test/newindex.html

I am having more trouble with this relatively simple design than  
with far more complicated sites. . The problem only seems to  
occur in IE at res  800 x 600.   At res 1024 x 768 it is fine and  
in Fx at 800 x 600 it is fine but at the lower res in IE the  
footer jumps up and some of it disappears behind other content.   
Have tried all sorts of fixes but obviously not the right one.


Hope someone can spot the problem.  Thank you

Lyn

Western Web Design
www.westernwebdesign.com.au






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Re: [WSG] IE footer problem at low resolution

[John Faulds]

Looks OK at my end. The two other things I'd remove would be:

* html, body { height: 100%;}
* html #container {height: 1%;}

The first one is wrong because there's a comma in there and you're  
applying a rule that you already have on the body and the second one isn't  
needed because you've already applied a height to #container.


On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:08:39 +1000, Lyn Patterson  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




It's margin-bottom: -40px on #container which is causing the problem.  
If it's there to make the footer stick to the bottom, you might want to  
look at a different implementation.

Thanks John but having removed it, the problem remains.









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Re: [WSG] IE footer problem at low resolution

[Lyn Patterson]

It's margin-bottom: -40px on #container which is causing the problem. 
If it's there to make the footer stick to the bottom, you might want 
to look at a different implementation.

Thanks John but having removed it, the problem remains.





http://www.westernwebdesign.com.au/test/newindex.html

I am having more trouble with this relatively simple design than with 
far more complicated sites. . The problem only seems to occur in IE 
at res  800 x 600.   At res 1024 x 768 it is fine and in Fx at 800 x 
600 it is fine but at the lower res in IE the footer jumps up and 
some of it disappears behind other content.  Have tried all sorts of 
fixes but obviously not the right one.


Hope someone can spot the problem.  Thank you

Lyn

Western Web Design
www.westernwebdesign.com.au






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Re: [WSG] IE footer problem at low resolution

[John Faulds]

It's margin-bottom: -40px on #container which is causing the problem. If  
it's there to make the footer stick to the bottom, you might want to look  
at a different implementation.


On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:36:47 +1000, Lyn Patterson  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Good morning

http://www.westernwebdesign.com.au/test/newindex.html

I am having more trouble with this relatively simple design than with  
far more complicated sites. . The problem only seems to occur in IE at  
res  800 x 600.   At res 1024 x 768 it is fine and in Fx at 800 x 600 it  
is fine but at the lower res in IE the footer jumps up and some of it  
disappears behind other content.  Have tried all sorts of fixes but  
obviously not the right one.


Hope someone can spot the problem.  Thank you

Lyn

Western Web Design
www.westernwebdesign.com.au


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Re: [WSG] Internationalization for hindi (data getting corrupted while sendng from jsp to action)

[Lachlan Hunt]

On Feb 22, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Nisha Kumari wrote:

I am trying to implement internationalization for my site. But when I am
trying to enter some Hindi text in a text box (struts html:text) the
value I m getting in my action is not expected one. Getting some
corrupted value rather than Hindi entered text.

I have set charset to utf-8 in the jsp page. Do I need to do any thing
more?


This is a little off topic for this list, but you need to check that you 
have handled all the encoding issues correctly.  You need to declare 
both the encoding of the actual JSP file and the encoding served to 
browsers.  Unfortunately, JSP defaults to ISO-8859-1 instead of UTF-8, 
but it's relatively easy to handle using the @page directive at the top 
of every JSP file.


<[EMAIL PROTECTED] encoding="UTF-8" contentType="text/html;charset=UTF-8"%>

The encoding attribute specifies the actual encoding of the file (you 
need to ensure your editor is actually saving in UTF-8).  The 
contentType attribute specifies the HTTP Content-Type header to be sent 
to UAs.  If the  2 declared encodings differ, then JSP will transcode it 
before sending.


Ideally, there should be a way to set these as defaults in web.xml for 
the application server, but I've never successfully found a way to do it.


You should then verify that the document received by browses is actually 
encoded in UTF-8.  If you've done the above correctly, it will be, but 
check anyway.


Browsers will submit form data in the same encoding as the page.  So 
unless the user explicitly changes it from UTF-8, then it will be UTF-8. 
 Finally, you need to make sure your form processing on the server side 
is actually accepting and interpreting the form submission as UTF-8.  It 
should do so if you added the @page directive correctly.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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RE: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Jermayn Parker]

One I remember is the discussion about a persons dvd list. I remember because I 
personally use a table for my Phantom comic collection, so much easier than 
using anything else...



>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 23/02/2007 2:05:59 am >>>
"Could you elaborate on the misuse of s?"

I can't remember any specific instances but over the last year on this list
there have been numerous discussions where people were trying to shoehorn
tabular data into definition lists when they clearly should have been using
tables. Nick has obviously noticed the same trend. I don't have time to look
them up but I'll let you know if I remember any. I'll certainly shout the
next time someone does it!

Steve


-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Barney Carroll
Sent: 22 February 2007 16:24
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Subject: Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I would disagree with the statement "It is all semantics, and will be 
> seen by most designers as fundamentally incorrect and misleading". I 
> suspect the actual figure would be nearer 0.1% of designers, although 
> most on this list would likely agree with the statement.
> 
> Steve

Steve, you're probably a bit nearer the mark on that one. I was talking
within the context of markup nerd lists (which I occasionally forget are not
all that indicative of the real world).

Could you elaborate on the misuse of s?


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Internationalization for hindi (data getting corrupted while sendng from jsp to action)

[Tee G. Peng]

On Feb 22, 2007, at 4:53 AM, Nisha Kumari wrote:


Hi All.

I am trying to implement internationalization for my site. But when  
I am

trying to enter some Hindi text in a text box (struts html:text) the
value I m getting in my action is not expected one. Getting some
corrupted value rather than Hindi entered text.

I have set charset to utf-8 in the jsp page. Do I need to do any thing
more?


Hi Nisha,

I don't know Hindi, know no JSP so can't be of help!

But something you maybe overlook. Does your Hindi text unicode?  
Changing the charset to utf-8 directly from the header isn't good  
enough, you need the document to be utf-8 encoding. In Dreamwever and  
BBedit, I can change that from "Preferences" or 'properity'. And the  
Urdu/Hindi font needs to be Unicode font. If you use PC, Vista maybe  
come with Unicode fonts but I am not sure about XP though.


tee



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Re: [WSG] Is a span valid within a caption?

[Rolf SF]

Thanks Paul, and Eugenio

I did validate the code (no errors). I'm just checking to see if  
there's something I missed, trying to understand why Visual Studio  
would report an error.




On Feb 22, 2007, at 12:32 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


Rolf SF wrote:
I can't seem to find a definitive answer on whether it's valid to  
include a span within a caption in a table.
A colleague mentioned that Visual Studio has thrown a warning:  
Element 'span' cannot be nested within element 'caption'


According to the HTML 4.01 DTD, caption can contain inline  
elements. As span is an inline element, you should therefore be fine.




If you're unsure about this sort of thing, run your output through  
the W3C validator...


--
Patrick H. Lauke




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Re: [WSG] Is a span valid within a caption?

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Rolf SF wrote:
I can't seem to find a definitive answer on whether it's valid to 
include a span within a caption in a table.
A colleague mentioned that Visual Studio has thrown a warning: Element 
'span' cannot be nested within element 'caption'


According to the HTML 4.01 DTD, caption can contain inline elements. As 
span is an inline element, you should therefore be fine.




If you're unsure about this sort of thing, run your output through the 
W3C validator...


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Is a span valid within a caption?

[TuteC]

Caption and span are inline elements, I don't see any problems in merging them.
Checked an example code at W3C HTML validator, and it validated ok.
Best regards;
Eugenio Costa.

On 2/22/07, Rolf SF <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I can't seem to find a definitive answer on whether it's valid to include a
span within a caption in a table.
A colleague mentioned that Visual Studio has thrown a warning: Element
'span' cannot be nested within element 'caption'



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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[David Dorward]

Designer wrote:

However, this is like saying "I don't use tables, but I wish I could, so 
I'm going to do the next best thing and make some divs behave like a 
table with cells" - Isn't it? 


No, it is like saying "This isn't tabular data, but I want a tabular 
layout, so my markup is not going to claim tabular semantics, but my 
stylesheet is going to specify tabular display".



--
David Dorward   


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[TuteC]

I think it is a solution for preventing the use of layout tables. I
wish I could use it, so a modern browser can see a nicely organized
site, a palm a linearized site, and a screen reader can read the
contents. A sort of way to device independency.
Regards;
Eugenio Costa.

On 2/22/07, Designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Thanks to all who responded. I must say that I basically agree with most
of what was said, but a few things still bother me, semantic-wise.
Firstly, doing it 'properly' could be seen as using the following:

#grid {display : table; }

#colalpha { width : 28em; display : table-cell; padding : 10px;  }

#colbeta {  width : 14em; background : #f1f1f1; display : table-cell;
vertical-align : middle; padding : 10px;}

However, this is like saying "I don't use tables, but I wish I could, so
I'm going to do the next best thing and make some divs behave like a
table with cells" - Isn't it?   And, if so, that is no more semantic
than using a table, inasmuch as if the content isn't tabular, then don't
structure it in a tabular way - and if it is, then fine : use a table.

Which leaves me wondering what the point of 'display : table' actually is?

Anyone?

--
Bob



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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Designer]

Thanks to all who responded. I must say that I basically agree with most 
of what was said, but a few things still bother me, semantic-wise. 
Firstly, doing it 'properly' could be seen as using the following:


#grid {display : table; }

#colalpha { width : 28em; display : table-cell; padding : 10px;  }

	#colbeta {  width : 14em; background : #f1f1f1; display : table-cell; 
vertical-align : middle; padding : 10px;}


However, this is like saying "I don't use tables, but I wish I could, so 
I'm going to do the next best thing and make some divs behave like a 
table with cells" - Isn't it?   And, if so, that is no more semantic 
than using a table, inasmuch as if the content isn't tabular, then don't 
structure it in a tabular way - and if it is, then fine : use a table.


Which leaves me wondering what the point of 'display : table' actually is?

Anyone?

--
Bob

www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Barney Carroll]

Steve Green wrote:

"Could you elaborate on the misuse of s?"

I can't remember any specific instances but over the last year on this list
there have been numerous discussions where people were trying to shoehorn
tabular data into definition lists when they clearly should have been using
tables. Nick has obviously noticed the same trend. I don't have time to look
them up but I'll let you know if I remember any. I'll certainly shout the
next time someone does it!

Steve


Aha... No, I do understand - inappropriate use considering the context 
of the data, right? I've seen it as well, and tried to steer people away 
from it.


It's just that you often bring insights into screen reader issues. I 
thought you might hold some terrible secret as to a method for 
mutilating accessibility with  structures (which would have been 
great fun)!



Regards,
Barney


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RE: [WSG] re: please help me make this design work some way in firefox an ie

[Kepler Gelotte]

Hi,

It appears you are missing a closing quote:

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of varun krishnan
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 12:12 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] re: please help me make this design work some way in firefox
an ie

Hi Guys,

I am working on this design

http://www.vk123.com/modx/

The footer is  not rendering sometimes properly in firefox.

What Could  be the reason ?

thanks,

Varun


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RE: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Steve Green]

"Could you elaborate on the misuse of s?"

I can't remember any specific instances but over the last year on this list
there have been numerous discussions where people were trying to shoehorn
tabular data into definition lists when they clearly should have been using
tables. Nick has obviously noticed the same trend. I don't have time to look
them up but I'll let you know if I remember any. I'll certainly shout the
next time someone does it!

Steve


-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Barney Carroll
Sent: 22 February 2007 16:24
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I would disagree with the statement "It is all semantics, and will be 
> seen by most designers as fundamentally incorrect and misleading". I 
> suspect the actual figure would be nearer 0.1% of designers, although 
> most on this list would likely agree with the statement.
> 
> Steve

Steve, you're probably a bit nearer the mark on that one. I was talking
within the context of markup nerd lists (which I occasionally forget are not
all that indicative of the real world).

Could you elaborate on the misuse of s?


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[David Dorward]

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:48:21 -, Barney Carroll  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



David Dorward wrote:

Every cell in a row represents a day in a week.
Every cell in a column represents the same day of the week.
 Looks tabular to me.


Isn't the first precept of semantic markup that looks are no guide as to  
what things actually are?


The description of the data structure looks[1] tabular, the default  
presentation of that data structure is immaterial.


[1] in the sense "give a certain impression" not "the act of directing the  
eyes toward something and perceiving it visually"


--
David Dorward
   - Freshly redesigned


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Seb Neerman]

I think it depends how you'll lay it out.

If you're thinking about those ugly looking calendars on a blog's  
side column, or a funkier 2.oh calendar webapp, then yes. It's gonna  
be tabular.


If you're going to lay out a list item per month or week as one long  
scrolly page, with every day on a separate line, then it's gonna be a  
list.



Seb




On 22 Feb 2007, at 17:25, Andrew Maben wrote:


On Feb 22, 2007, at 9:56 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
It's similar to the fad from a couple of years ago for marking up  
calendars using floated s (or, possibly, s).


Perhaps you could chip in on a debate I'm having with myself: Is a  
calendar tabular data?


Andrew


109B SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."








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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Barney Carroll]

David Dorward wrote:

Every cell in a row represents a day in a week.
Every cell in a column represents the same day of the week.

Looks tabular to me.


Isn't the first precept of semantic markup that looks are no guide as to 
what things actually are?



Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Barney Carroll]

Andrew Maben wrote:
Perhaps you could chip in on a debate I'm having with myself: Is a 
calendar tabular data?


Andrew


Not in the truest sense.

A calendar relies on one axis alone - time. By putting it into a table, 
you are artificially constraining its info on false premises.


For instance, a small calendar might be the combination of two axes: 
time of day, and day:


  Mon Tue Wed ...
08:00
09:00
10:00
...

...or you could put it another way: day of the week, and week number:

   Mon Tue Wed ...
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3
...

...or day number, and month:

1  2  3  ...
Jan
Feb
Mar
...

But all these things are incompatible. If you have it as a highly styled 
list item:



 Jan
  
   1

 08:00
  ...

You leave all those options open, and you're being less deceptive in 
your grouping the only true [linear] factor, time, into two subjective 
and inter-related systems.


Of course, for any kind of convenience, you're probably better off with 
one of the table methods. But I still maintain than in purest concept, 
it is not tabular data.



Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[luiz gustavo aleagi nunes]

Hello Andrew,

I think a calendar could be a tabular data or not.

You can make a calendar without a table at all.

Semantics is all about this, discussion what is right or wrong (it
leads you to anywhere but hey, we're humand and this is what we do, we
arguee and discuss all the time).

I mean, if you would like to use a table to insert you calendar cells,
go ahead, there's nothing wrong with that, but if you're an extremist
and don't like tabless at all, make it tableless.

Of course, don't wrap a image or a form in a table, it really sux!

Best Regards from Brazil,
Luiz Gustavo Aleagi Nunes
-
http://sapiensdc.com.br
"Nosce te ipsum"



On 2/22/07, Andrew Maben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Feb 22, 2007, at 9:56 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
It's similar to the fad from a couple of years ago for marking up calendars
using floated s (or, possibly, s).

Perhaps you could chip in on a debate I'm having with myself: Is a calendar
tabular data?

Andrew



109B SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions."








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Re: [WSG] Rewriting site - help, please.

[luiz gustavo aleagi nunes]

Hello Andrew,

There's a free tool to show you how you site will look in different
browsers and plataforms:
http://browsershots.org/

Take a time and submit you URL in there.

About your design, I like it, it's light, clean but the code it's kind
of full of redundancies...

For instance:

home
services
portfolio
contact
login


You don't have to declare the classes for all LIs in this UL, because
they're not different and you'll economize some bytes with that and,
of course, will be more semantic

Another tip, try to code your HTML with XHTML 1.1 Strict. It's a lot
easier to reache accessibility standards because it is very hard and
demand semantics all the time.

Good luck with you projects!

Best Regards from Brazil,

Luiz Gustavo Aleagi Nunes
-
http://sapiensdc.com.br
"Nosce te ipsum"


On 2/22/07, Andrew Maben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

OK - time to take the plunge...

I'm rewriting my site in what I hope is the 'right' way - semantic,
standards-compliant, accessible.

I've got a small problem on the home page: The bottom borders of the nav
items don't show up in IE7 (and I don't have IE6).

Any help with that (and any other comments) would be much appreciated:
 (just the index page, any deeper and you'll
find PHP errors)


Andrew


109B SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions."
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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[David Dorward]

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:25:42 -, Andrew Maben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:



Perhaps you could chip in on a debate I'm having with myself: Is a
calendar tabular data?


Every cell in a row represents a day in a week.
Every cell in a column represents the same day of the week.

Looks tabular to me.


--
David Dorward
   - Freshly redesigned


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Andrew Maben]

On Feb 22, 2007, at 9:56 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
It's similar to the fad from a couple of years ago for marking up  
calendars using floated s (or, possibly, s).


Perhaps you could chip in on a debate I'm having with myself: Is a  
calendar tabular data?


Andrew


109B SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."









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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Barney Carroll]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I would disagree with the statement "It is all semantics, and will be seen by
most designers as fundamentally incorrect and misleading". I suspect the
actual figure would be nearer 0.1% of designers, although most on this list
would likely agree with the statement.

Steve


Steve, you're probably a bit nearer the mark on that one. I was talking 
within the context of markup nerd lists (which I occasionally forget are 
not all that indicative of the real world).


Could you elaborate on the misuse of s?


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 22 Feb 2007, at 12:07:21, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

A far bigger problem in my opinion is this recent fad for placing  
tabular data

in definition lists. Where did that come from? The result really is
incomprehensible because even the best screen readers can make  
little sense of
the resulting code, no matter how semantically perfect it might be,  
whereas
there are numerous tools for reading and navigating data tables if  
they are

marked up correctly.


The widespread abuse of definition lists is indeed a baffling  
phenomenon, and almost every example I've seen is best characterised  
as completely ignoring the semantics of such a list - although the  
person responsible will claim that it's "more semantic" than a table.


It's similar to the fad from a couple of years ago for marking up  
calendars using floated s (or, possibly, s).


I think that when people get the idea that "tables shouldn't be used  
for layout" they somehow end up translating that into their heads as  
"tables should never be used for any purpose whatsoever". When faced  
with clearly tabular data, they then scratch around in Google looking  
for some "semantically pure" way of representing it, and finish up  
following articles with all these crazy s, never truly  
understanding what they're doing and why it's so wrong. In fact, I  
think some people believe "semantically correct" is a synonymous term  
for "not having any  elements."


Given the range of accessibility features built into the   
model (things like colgroup, and the axis, scope and headers  
attributes) it's clearly of great potential benefit to users of  
assistive devices if tables are used properly as needed (i.e. for  
tabular data). I believe that many current assistive technologies  
make little use of such features, but that's probably because those  
features are so seldom used in the wild. Perhaps if we abandoned our  
shenanigans with definition lists and started marking up our tables  
correctly, we could make it worthwhile for the manufacturers of such  
technologies to support those features.


(End rant.)

Regards,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Site Issue - opinions please

[Charles Eaton]

On Feb 21, 2007, at 2:28 AM, David Dorward wrote:

Invisible text is hard to read against any background colour, and  
you can't depend on images being loaded. This thread started  
because of issues with alt text on image maps not showing up when  
images weren't there.


... that will teach me to read the whole thread!
Have a look in my sandbox, i think i found a solution. www.eatons.net/sandbox/no-map.html>


The OBJECT model

Two ref's: 


It tested well in Firefox and Opera on the Mac (Note: OK, but not as  
well in Safari???)

I don't know how it handles on Explorer in Windows???

-chuck


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Designer wrote:
It seems to me that pragmatism can sometimes outbenefit the religion 
of standards - and I'd really like some real world feedback on when 
such a table approach causes real problems.   (Yes, I know it's not 
truly semantic, and I agree that it's a problem because of that).


If web standards is a religion, then I'm out of here :-)

As long as you know - and have gone through - all pros and cons, then it
comes down to "taking the heat" for using that 'HTML table'. No browsers
will ever cause real problems because of it.

The only problem I can see is that one may start feeling so "safe" with
that old 'HTML table' solution that one stop exploring the various "pure
CSS" solutions (with workarounds and all) for a while. Browsers and
standards are improving - albeit slowly, so one may have a bit of
"catching up" to do one day in the future.
Less experienced web designers may also be lead to think that there are
fewer options at hand than there really are, and that won't help on
progress.

I'm pragmatic, and pretty agnostic, when it comes to standards and
"standard-compliant" browsers. I don't think I will fall back to using
'HTML tables' as layout tools though, as I think it is safer to hack
IE/win and other old browsers to pieces in CSS and keep the source-code
relatively free from such hacks, while I'm waiting for standards to work
as intended across the board.

Now, if only I knew the _intentions_ behind the various parts of those
standards, so I knew what to expect ;-)

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[stevegreen]

Barney is right about screen readers and tables. The behaviour varies insofar
as some screen readers (such as Fire Vox) announce the presence of all the
tables, some don't announce them at all and some (such as JAWS) announce some
tables and not others. I am not sure how it decides which it does and does not
announce. In any case users can usually identify and ignore the markup for
layout tables very easily.

A far bigger problem in my opinion is this recent fad for placing tabular data
in definition lists. Where did that come from? The result really is
incomprehensible because even the best screen readers can make little sense of
the resulting code, no matter how semantically perfect it might be, whereas
there are numerous tools for reading and navigating data tables if they are
marked up correctly.

I would disagree with the statement "It is all semantics, and will be seen by
most designers as fundamentally incorrect and misleading". I suspect the
actual figure would be nearer 0.1% of designers, although most on this list
would likely agree with the statement.

Steve



Barney Carroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Bob,
> 
> As long as you have an audio-only disclaimer just before stating "The 
> following object does not contain tabular data". Otherwise screen 
> readers (supposedly) and standardist developers browsing your site in 
> view-source mode (as one does) will get halfway through the content of 
> your first  and suddenly come to the horrifying realisation "What's 
> going on?! This isn't cross-referencing data!" and will lose all sense 
> of context, suffer psychotic episodes, and never visit your site again.
> 
> If you can live with that, go ahead. Just remove that beautiful-looking 
> W3 tick logo from the bottom of your pages.
> 
> [/joke]
> 
> It is all semantics, and will be seen by most designers as fundamentally 
> incorrect and misleading. However your page will still be valid and 
> accessible, and it's very hard to conceive of a realistic user persona 
> whose experience would suffer from this.
> 
> There is a lot of mythology about screen-readers being utterly thrown by 
> tables, but at the end of the day tables operate as you'd expect, in a 
> linear fashion (as they are written in the code) - which is just how 
> your layout would be written anyway. The name in and of itself of the 
> tags is the only real contention here.
> 
> So practically, you wouldn't be inconveniencing your users, but in 
> theory you're wrong wrong wrong. Be warned.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Barney
> 
> 
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> 
> 





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Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[Barney Carroll]

Bob,

As long as you have an audio-only disclaimer just before stating "The 
following object does not contain tabular data". Otherwise screen 
readers (supposedly) and standardist developers browsing your site in 
view-source mode (as one does) will get halfway through the content of 
your first  and suddenly come to the horrifying realisation "What's 
going on?! This isn't cross-referencing data!" and will lose all sense 
of context, suffer psychotic episodes, and never visit your site again.


If you can live with that, go ahead. Just remove that beautiful-looking 
W3 tick logo from the bottom of your pages.


[/joke]

It is all semantics, and will be seen by most designers as fundamentally 
incorrect and misleading. However your page will still be valid and 
accessible, and it's very hard to conceive of a realistic user persona 
whose experience would suffer from this.


There is a lot of mythology about screen-readers being utterly thrown by 
tables, but at the end of the day tables operate as you'd expect, in a 
linear fashion (as they are written in the code) - which is just how 
your layout would be written anyway. The name in and of itself of the 
tags is the only real contention here.


So practically, you wouldn't be inconveniencing your users, but in 
theory you're wrong wrong wrong. Be warned.



Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.

[Tee G. Peng]

On Feb 21, 2007, at 3:29 PM, Shlomi Asaf wrote:

thanks alot Christian for your answer, u given me data that i  
wasent aware about.



What you (and everyone else) need is display:table and
display:table-cell, but unfortunately these features are just not
supported in enough browsers yet.


Well, I used the method for a site. Doesn't work for  IE Mac 5.2 but   
this browser support was not needed.


Work for IE 5.5 and above, all Gecko broswer except Netscape 4.x  
which is expected. IE is given 100% height, overflow hidden, negative  
paddings and float. I would say the browser support is good enough to  
make it on commercial site.



http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=325739
http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/sh-all/home_loggedout-new.html


quick example for your desired layout

#wrap {display: table}
div.content {display: table-row}
div.float {display: cell }



 first column
 second column
 third  column






 first column second row
 second column second row
 third  column second row




Safari can be a bit tricky, it seems that without #wrap, other  
browser stills display well. For some strange reason, padding didn't  
seem to work for .float, as a result I was forced to use white thick  
borders to seperate each block. There were times client requested  
blocks position be shifted, thus messed up Safari quite a bit, any  
inner content wrap (in my case, the table) without width declared  
makes Safari wacky too.


Clear both absolutely needed for each row.

All credit goes to Georg as without his pointer and help, I was not  
able to do my job for this layout.


Hope this helps!

tee





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Re: [WSG] Article: creating drop cap on the fly

[Thierry Koblentz]

Kevin McMonagle wrote:
>> I'd appreciate any comment that would help me improve this article:
>> http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/the_perfect_drop_cap.asp

> Looks good, if you decrease the font size by one or two than the drop
> cap indent goes way in. 
> Is there a way to fix that.

This is just a matter of clearing the images; check the demo again:
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/TJK_dropCap_demo.asp

(thanks for the heads-up)

---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com


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Re: [WSG] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.

[Shlomi Asaf]

thanks alot Christian for your answer, u given me data that i wasent aware
about.

secondly, you should consider using DIV as a Clearing Element.
a BR is a semantic element.
if youl try to reuse your layout again (or part of him that includes the BR
element), and you'll no longer need a clearing element there, youll notice a
problem- youll have a Line Break element.
if youll define the clear inside a DIV, and then delete the clear out of
him, ull have just a div and nothing else.

BR will hurm your layout. a div is just a div- no effect at all on the
layout.

Solomon

On 2/22/07, Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 2/21/07, Shlomi Asaf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi
> i have a "table" like layout.
> here is a live example:
> http://www.webcssdesign.34sp.com/me/floatingDivs.htm
>
> all the floating divs has the same height. i haven't written the height
in
> the css- the content is the same.
> all the titles are one line height.
> but what happens when one title is longer? the layout breaks and the
lower
> float element looks for his position in a the next empty space - after
the
> high element.

What you (and everyone else) need is display:table and
display:table-cell, but unfortunately these features are just not
supported in enough browsers yet. Therefore, you'll probably have to
settle for a less than perfect solution.

> how can i solve this problem?
> i can find few suggestion but none of them satisfy me:
>
> an Element with clear:both after each ending line.

honestly, this isn't that bad. Just spitting out a  after every
third item (count%3) will take only a couple lines of code, and is
probably the lightest way to achieve this for what works today.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com


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--
www.webcssdesign.34sp.com


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RE: [WSG] trying to justify webstandards

[John Horner]

>I agree entirely with Rachel, web standards are (or should be)
independent 
>of server-side technology. It's the HTML/CSS that gets outputted to the

>browser that matters, regardless of what creates that output.

I agree too. It's a puzzling attitude. I've seen people speak about web
standards before, identify a piece of inaccessible or problematic code,
say dismissively that "the content management system does that" and move
on.

A CMS does what you tell it to, and it doesn't matter what's on the back
end.

Or, to put it the other way around, if you can't output valid
standards-based code with your system, then it's not a CMS. 

==
The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and
may contain legally privileged or copyright material.   It is intended only for
the use of the addressee(s).  If you are not the intended recipient of this
email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or
any attachments.  If you have received this message in error, please notify the
sender immediately and delete this email from your system.  The ABC does not
represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free.   Before
opening any attachment you should check for viruses.  The ABC's liability is
limited to resupplying any email and attachments
==


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Re: [WSG] Layout Problem: Floating Elements with different heights breaks the flow.

[Christian Montoya]

On 2/21/07, Shlomi Asaf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi
i have a "table" like layout.
here is a live example:
http://www.webcssdesign.34sp.com/me/floatingDivs.htm

all the floating divs has the same height. i haven't written the height in
the css- the content is the same.
all the titles are one line height.
but what happens when one title is longer? the layout breaks and the lower
float element looks for his position in a the next empty space - after the
high element.


What you (and everyone else) need is display:table and
display:table-cell, but unfortunately these features are just not
supported in enough browsers yet. Therefore, you'll probably have to
settle for a less than perfect solution.


how can i solve this problem?
i can find few suggestion but none of them satisfy me:

an Element with clear:both after each ending line.


honestly, this isn't that bad. Just spitting out a  after every
third item (count%3) will take only a couple lines of code, and is
probably the lightest way to achieve this for what works today.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com


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Re: ADMIN THREAD CLOSED Re: [WSG] Check server logs for fraud and site duplication!

[Lea de Groot]

Discussing off list (you're welcome).
Thread still closed

Lea de Groot
-- 
WSG Core Member

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:56:36 +1100, Tim wrote:
> 
> Moderator, my W3C standards have been trashed by another site, this 
> is why we are all here, can standards be taken away with no recourse 
> and no discussion allowed. This is the web standards group, anyway we 
> can uphold standards is relevant material.
> 
> Please moderator it is on topic, to the pithy heart of standards and 
> will only take a few posts to resolve for this group to help keep 
> standards high.


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Re: ADMIN THREAD CLOSED Re: [WSG] Check server logs for fraud and site duplication!

[Tim]

Please Lea,

Moderator, my W3C standards have been trashed by another site, this is 
why we are all here, can standards be taken away with no recourse and 
no discussion allowed. This is the web standards group, anyway we can 
uphold standards is relevant material.


Please moderator it is on topic, to the pithy heart of standards and 
will only take a few posts to resolve for this group to help keep 
standards high.


Tim

On 21/02/2007, at 8:37 PM, Lea de Groot wrote:


On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:01:13 +1100, Tim wrote:

If there were a legal standards group I would post this there, but  I
believe this of concern to all members that their work is not stolen
and that legal standards are relevant to compliance with W3C
standards as with Disability Discrimination laws?


Unfortunately this is not on-topic for this list.
We're about web standards (and associated technologies, such as email
and rss), not the sociological complex that is the law of the land.
I think you will find this is completely on topic for just about any
general web design list around, such as WD-L and Evolt.
Perhaps you could post on one of those?

Everyone, if you wish to discuss this with Tim would you reply directly
to him?
Thanks!

warmly,
Lea
--
Lea de Groot
WSG Core Member


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The Editor
Heretic Press
http://www.hereticpress.com
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [WSG] Check server logs for fraud and site duplication!

[David Dorward]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 09:47:28 -, Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Keeping it relevant to standards but only on Linux servers, I hope is OK  
for this one.



In your htacces file put


Apache /does/ run on platforms other than Linux (including Windows).

--
David Dorward
   - Freshly redesigned


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Re: [WSG] Site Issue - opinions please

[Tim]

I work so hard to have all pages validated XHTML 1.0 Strict and AAA 
accessible.


Thanks for that 210 validation errors. Really gross. Any of my real 
pages validate, I feel so cheated apart for the loss of income, the 
defacement of W3C standards I try to hold high.


My beloved authors would be distraught and embarrassed to see the 
errors and all loss of formatting.
This is an abomination on any artist. Thanks Al I am waiting a bit 
before changing it to the graphic, just biding my time.


Tim

On 21/02/2007, at 8:25 PM, Al Kendall wrote:

only a few validation issues...  Failed validation, 210 errors in the 
new site with 191 in the old one




On 2/20/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I am in a desperate state. I am working for a .com.au and they are
struggling with some of the more forward-thinking web development
features that are around...

Please take a look at www.cataloguecentral.com.au

If you think it is poorly programmed, take a look at what it used to 
be

(2 months ago):
www.cataloguecentral.com.au/default5.asp

I am trying my hardest to drag this business into 2007 but there is
solid resistance

Unfortunately, Catalogue Central have received some poor advice in the
past and seem to still be receiving poor advice now.

The issue at the moment is to do with the red drop down list/menu at
the top left hand corner of the site

People here want to expand the menu so that the contents of each list
are printed down under each heading. Your thoughts pleaseIt's
alright if you think the same way but I think a drop down menu, in 
this

case, runs rings around the alternative

Thanks for your thoughts.

Christian Fagan.
Fagan Design.
 www.fagandesign.com.au




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--
Cheers!

Al Kendall
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Re: [WSG] Check server logs for fraud and site duplication!

[Tim]

I almost put One Windoze group member to sleep last time I mentioned 
this. Sorry
Keeping it relevant to standards but only on Linux servers, I hope is 
OK for this one.


Make an ugly image graphic of text stolen from yourdomain.com, red and 
white looks dramatic.
Save it as file extension jpe or something so you don't ruin other jpg 
files

Replace the 00.00.00.00 with your IP
RewriteRule .*\.(cgi|wav) Add the file extensions here add any file 
type, each needs a "|" before the file extension

In your htacces file put

RewriteEngine on
RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} ^-?$
RewriteCond %{HTTP_USER_AGENT} ^-?$
RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} !^$
RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} !^http://(www\.)?yourdomain.com(/)?.*$
RewriteCond %{HTTP_REFERER} !^http://(www\.)?00.00.00.00(/)?.*$
RewriteRule .*\.(cgi|wav)$ http://www.yourdomain.com/Stolen.jpe

Tim

The Editor
Heretic Press
http://www.hereticpress.com

On 21/02/2007, at 8:21 PM, Al Kendall wrote:


Hi Tim,
   Shocking thing to do by these people.   Just out of 
interest how can I put the 'Stolen from' graphic on my site just 
incase it happens to me.? 


 Cheers Al

 On 2/21/07, Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


If there were a legal standards group I would post this there, but  I
believe this of concern to all members that their work is not stolen
and that legal standards are relevant to compliance with W3C standards
as with Disability Discrimination laws?

I have a number of paypal buttons on my account  for
http://www.hereticpress.com.
Most recently I have added paypal buttons for animations and ringtones
for mobile phones.

http://www.hereticpress.com/Phone/index.html
http://www.hereticpress.com/Phone/Anim/index.html

Under each animation there is a paypal button.

My entire site is being stolen by this site: Everything except the
stylesheets for some reason? At least I can see how it all looks with
zero formatting.
http://www.skweezer.net/ask/s.aspx/2/www.hereticpress.com/Phone/Anim/
index.html

When I click on the paypal button in the stolen copy of my pages it
goes to a fake paypal payment page that is also on the server
https://www.skweezer.net/ask/s.aspx/2/www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr

I have checked the whois database and it is registered to a US company
Administrative Contact: Greenlight Wireless Corporation 22651 Lambert
Street, Suite 106 Lake Forest, CA 92630 US

I have not contacted the server admin yet but have contacted paypal 
and

asked them to contact any US laws enforcement police would be
interested in such fraud?

This has happened to me before so I know some other steps I can take
with my htaccess file, but I wanted to let them go for a bit and see 
if

I can get a legal solution which protects the copyright of members
work?  It there anyone prosecuting anyone for the theft of members
work? Who else should I inform before I fill their site with ugly
"stolen from" graphics?

I would prefer they are caught by US law enforcement and prevented 
from

theft in the future.

Please pass on this email to any fraud investigation department in the
US.

Yours Faithfully

Tim Anderson
The Webmaster
http://www.hereticpress.com
Melbourne
Australia





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 --
Cheers!

Al Kendall
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ADMIN THREAD CLOSED Re: [WSG] Check server logs for fraud and site duplication!

[Lea de Groot]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:01:13 +1100, Tim wrote:
> If there were a legal standards group I would post this there, but  I 
> believe this of concern to all members that their work is not stolen 
> and that legal standards are relevant to compliance with W3C 
> standards as with Disability Discrimination laws?

Unfortunately this is not on-topic for this list.
We're about web standards (and associated technologies, such as email 
and rss), not the sociological complex that is the law of the land.
I think you will find this is completely on topic for just about any 
general web design list around, such as WD-L and Evolt.
Perhaps you could post on one of those?

Everyone, if you wish to discuss this with Tim would you reply directly 
to him?
Thanks!

warmly,
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
WSG Core Member


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Re: [WSG] Site Issue - opinions please

[Al Kendall]

only a few validation issues...  Failed validation, 210 errors in the new
site with 191 in the old one



On 2/20/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hello list,

I am in a desperate state. I am working for a .com.au and they are
struggling with some of the more forward-thinking web development
features that are around...

Please take a look at www.cataloguecentral.com.au

If you think it is poorly programmed, take a look at what it used to be
(2 months ago):
www.cataloguecentral.com.au/default5.asp

I am trying my hardest to drag this business into 2007 but there is
solid resistance

Unfortunately, Catalogue Central have received some poor advice in the
past and seem to still be receiving poor advice now.

The issue at the moment is to do with the red drop down list/menu at
the top left hand corner of the site

People here want to expand the menu so that the contents of each list
are printed down under each heading. Your thoughts pleaseIt's
alright if you think the same way but I think a drop down menu, in this
case, runs rings around the alternative

Thanks for your thoughts.

Christian Fagan.
Fagan Design.
www.fagandesign.com.au




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--
Cheers!

Al Kendall


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Re: [WSG] Check server logs for fraud and site duplication!

[Al Kendall]

Hi Tim,
  Shocking thing to do by these people.   Just out of interest how
can I put the 'Stolen from' graphic on my site just incase it happens to
me.?

Cheers Al

On 2/21/07, Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Dear Members,

If there were a legal standards group I would post this there, but  I
believe this of concern to all members that their work is not stolen
and that legal standards are relevant to compliance with W3C standards
as with Disability Discrimination laws?

I have a number of paypal buttons on my account  for
http://www.hereticpress.com.
Most recently I have added paypal buttons for animations and ringtones
for mobile phones.

http://www.hereticpress.com/Phone/index.html
http://www.hereticpress.com/Phone/Anim/index.html

Under each animation there is a paypal button.

My entire site is being stolen by this site: Everything except the
stylesheets for some reason? At least I can see how it all looks with
zero formatting.
http://www.skweezer.net/ask/s.aspx/2/www.hereticpress.com/Phone/Anim/
index.html

When I click on the paypal button in the stolen copy of my pages it
goes to a fake paypal payment page that is also on the server
https://www.skweezer.net/ask/s.aspx/2/www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr

I have checked the whois database and it is registered to a US company
Administrative Contact: Greenlight Wireless Corporation 22651 Lambert
Street, Suite 106 Lake Forest, CA 92630 US

I have not contacted the server admin yet but have contacted paypal and
asked them to contact any US laws enforcement police would be
interested in such fraud?

This has happened to me before so I know some other steps I can take
with my htaccess file, but I wanted to let them go for a bit and see if
I can get a legal solution which protects the copyright of members
work?  It there anyone prosecuting anyone for the theft of members
work? Who else should I inform before I fill their site with ugly
"stolen from" graphics?

I would prefer they are caught by US law enforcement and prevented from
theft in the future.

Please pass on this email to any fraud investigation department in the
US.

Yours Faithfully

Tim Anderson
The Webmaster
http://www.hereticpress.com
Melbourne
Australia





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Cheers!

Al Kendall


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Re: [WSG] Site Issue - opinions please

[David Dorward]

Charles Eaton wrote:




I doubt that http://dorward.me.uk/tmp/fake-image-map.png is the effect 
you are after.



background-image: url(callforentries.gif);
color:transparent;


Invisible text is hard to read against any background colour, and you 
can't depend on images being loaded. This thread started because of 
issues with alt text on image maps not showing up when images weren't there.




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Now those really aren't definitions of that term.


--
David Dorward   


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Re: [WSG] (Georg) equal heights within equal heigh wraper

[Tee G. Peng]

On Feb 20, 2007, at 4:12 AM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

Georg,



- #left is an independent container, so it will, and should, only  
affect

height of its parent - #wrap.
- #right is on its own, and will not be affected by, or have an effect
on, #left.
- #right - and all containers inside #right - will of course affect
height of #wrap, since both #left and #right are children of #wrap.
This makes it appear as if #right is affecting the height of #left,  
but

not the other way around. It's just an illusion though.

Now, if you want #left to affect the height of #right, #left must be a
child of #right.



OK, your explanation makes perfect sense and brings clarity for me. I  
thought since both #left and #right are childeren of #wrap, therefor  
they must have effect on each other.


Making #left a descendent of #right will not achieve the visual  
layout I wish to achieve though, if content in the left gets longer  
than the children of #right - the illusion did work for a layout I  
made for a site - I need to pray days and nights that client never  
add extra stuff in the outer left column. All the equal height's  
examples I saw, do not seemed to have similar layout technique. Is   
it simply cannot done with table, table-row and table-cell?  I played  
with a few equal height layout technique, and I like yours most.


Best,
tee

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Re: [WSG] Site Issue - opinions please

[Charles Eaton]

On Feb 20, 2007, at 10:47 AM, David Dorward wrote:





a better setup (IMHO), is to use a "definition list",
drop your image in the background of the , giving it the image  
size,

use  and 3 's in a two row setup to overlay the image.
add text [no display] and links, ... your in business.


Suffers from the usual problems of FIR. i.e. No alt text if images  
are disabled and no content screen readers can get to.


==
It's in my sandbox and layed out below.
... you can add more " 's" to fill it out or use a hover.



=
dl{
width:250px;
height:248px;
background-image: url(callforentries.gif);
color:transparent;
}

dl a{color:transparent;}

dd:hover{border: 1px solid red; }

dt{
width:100%;
height:160px;
}
dd.one{
margin:12px 0px 0px 0px;
width:80px;
height:75px;
}

dd.two{
width:85px;
height:75px;
margin: 12px 0px 0px -2px;
}

dd.three{
width:80px;
height:75px;
margin: 12px 0px 0px -3px;
}

dd.one,dd.two,dd.three{
display:inline-block;
}


==


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Re: [WSG] Float Hell, or...?

[Joseph R. B. Taylor]

It's pretty obvious that you are coding for IE first, then checking 
firefoxthat never works.


Get it right in firefox first, them make an "IE only" stylesheet with 
the box model fixes.


*Joseph R. B. Taylor*
Sites by Joe, LLC
/Custom Web Design & Development/
Phone: (609) 335-3076
www.sitesbyjoe.com 



Lisa Benham wrote:

Pretty plase, see:

http://tinyurl.com/2gd54w 
 



and the css...

http://tinyurl.com/ynwq9d 
 



Float hell, or... collapsed margins or...? Can't see straight any 
more. Deadline, for a site I just inherited...


I have validated, studied hard over MANY of the greatest new CSS 
books, and busted tail on this thing all weekend, to get a good, sound 
cross-platform CSS standard banner template from which to grind out a 
bunch of prototype html for waiting developers.


The painful irony... without my trying for this, is...

IE 7: (IE x.x being my client's main standard, eeh... for their 
own VERY broad client base (support/customer service)
Not that I trust it from what I know, but... The page looks almost 
perfect in IE7, apart from the dropped/hidden 3-item Login menu, top 
right. A float issue, I assume...? You can see this little login menu 
on it's own next line down, with a click-dragged cursor over it, if 
you try, if you care... I have to.) (Note: Login menu is now a , 
not a  so as not to fight with the other two main menu lists and 
all their list properties, to simplify.)


But the BIG SUCK...

Firefox 2.: (my baby and golden standard) The whole darn banner 
collapses UP, all to heck. Gr!


Any and all help much appreciated... Hopefully much of it is a related 
issue.


Thank you!


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Re: [WSG] Float Hell, or...?

[John Faulds]

Is this spam?

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:18:31 +1000, Lisa Benham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Pretty plase, see:

http://tinyurl.com/2gd54w



and the css...

http://tinyurl.com/ynwq9d



Float hell, or... collapsed margins or...? Can't see straight any more.
Deadline, for a site I just inherited...

I have validated, studied hard over MANY of the greatest new CSS books,
and busted tail on this thing all weekend, to get a good, sound
cross-platform CSS standard banner template from which to grind out a
bunch of prototype html for waiting developers.

The painful irony... without my trying for this, is...

IE 7: (IE x.x being my client's main standard, eeh... for their own
VERY broad client base (support/customer service)
Not that I trust it from what I know, but... The page looks almost
perfect in IE7, apart from the dropped/hidden 3-item Login menu, top
right. A float issue, I assume...? You can see this little login menu on
it's own next line down, with a click-dragged cursor over it, if you
try, if you care... I have to.) (Note: Login menu is now a , not a
 so as not to fight with the other two main menu lists and all their
list properties, to simplify.)

But the BIG SUCK...

Firefox 2.: (my baby and golden standard) The whole darn banner
collapses UP, all to heck. Gr!

Any and all help much appreciated... Hopefully much of it is a related
issue.

Thank you!



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--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] hr won't turn black

[Mordechai Peller]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

As a comparison,
try removing all of your P tags, and see if the white space they give
you is purely presentational!
Paragraph elements only give white space because they are told to by 
CSS. Instead of paragraphs, I could use almost any other element 
(depending on the page, I could probably even use noscripts and even get 
it to validate) and in any even semi-modern browser I could make it look 
identical.  What gives paragraph elements their value isn't their white 
space (screen readers and search engines don't see the white space), 
it's that by excepted standards they denote a paragraph of text.




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Re: [WSG] Site Issue - opinions please

[David Dorward]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:36:18 -, Charles Eaton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:


I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the standards use of the  
 and  tags (like I'm doing here on the 2007 image of the  
left column:



W3C says: "try to avoid server-side image maps" [xhtml]


If it is using area elements, then its a client side image map.


a better setup (IMHO), is to use a "definition list",
drop your image in the background of the , giving it the image size,
use  and 3 's in a two row setup to overlay the image.
add text [no display] and links, ... your in business.


Suffers from the usual problems of FIR. i.e. No alt text if images are  
disabled and no content screen readers can get to.


It also uses the rather dubious practise of having of a definition list as  
a generic key/values list.


Also, I don't understand what content you expect to put in the term and  
what values you expect to put in the descriptions.


--
David Dorward
   - Freshly redesigned


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Re: [WSG] Site Issue - opinions please

[Charles Eaton]

W3C says: "try to avoid server-side image maps" [xhtml]

a better setup (IMHO), is to use a "definition list",
drop your image in the background of the , giving it the image size,
use  and 3 's in a two row setup to overlay the image.
add text [no display] and links, ... your in business.
-chuck
==
On Feb 20, 2007, at 9:32 AM, Patrick Bruno wrote:

I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the standards use of  
the 
and  tags (like I'm doing here on the 2007 image of the left  
column:




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Re: [WSG] Site Issue - opinions please

[David Dorward]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:32:15 -, Patrick Bruno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:


I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the standards use of the  
 and  tags (like I'm doing here on the 2007 image of the left  
column: http://www.heliosdg.com/mgcaf/)? I did some testing by turning  
images off in IE7 and Firefox but the alt tag


Attribute!

data doesn't appear. Does that mean screen readers can't find the  
information?


No (which is not to say that they can either), but it does mean that  
people using those browsers with images disabled (Gosh, bandwidth on  
Vodafone is expensive, I'll turn images off) will have problems.


http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/mapalt.html is a good document on the  
subject.



--
David Dorward
   - Freshly redesigned


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RE: [WSG] Site Issue - opinions please

[Patrick Bruno]

I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the standards use of the 
and  tags (like I'm doing here on the 2007 image of the left column:
http://www.heliosdg.com/mgcaf/)? I did some testing by turning images off in
IE7 and Firefox but the alt tag data doesn't appear. Does that mean screen
readers can't find the information? Would it be best to provide  tags
below the mapped image in case the image doesn't load? I also googled for
web standards and the map & area tags but didn't come up with much.

Regards,
 
Patrick Bruno
Art Director
Helios Design Group/JM Digital Corporation
John C. Stennis Space Center
Building 1210, Suite 116
Stennis Space Center, MS 39529
ph: 228-688-2522
cell: 601-425-4059
fax: 228-688-1566
www.heliosdg.com
www.jmdigicorp.com




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Re: [WSG] Opera 9.10 Margin

[Ben Buchanan]

However I already have a background image on the  elements (the
vertical pipe separating each link), and I have not found a way to add
this extra image as a background the the first element.


Have you tried adding it to the  instead? Just use a contextual
selector after that...

li.first a {
backgroundetc
}

cheers

--
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] Article: creating drop cap on the fly

[Rob O'Rourke]

Kevin McMonagle wrote:
 

  

I'd appreciate any comment that would help me improve this article:
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/the_perfect_drop_cap.asp




Looks good, if you decrease the font size by one or two than the drop cap indent goes way in. 
Is there a way to fix that. 
-best

kvnmcwbn


  


Nice work but using drop-caps you have to pay attention to line-height 
or you end up with unwanted space underneath the image. The image is 
about 57px tall so you want the line-height to be a multiple of that. 
Try adding the following to your example page to see the difference it 
makes:


p { line-height: 19px; clear: left; }

it might be better to use the em equivalent of 19px though.

Rob



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Re: [WSG] (Georg) equal heights within equal heigh wraper

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Tee G. Peng wrote:

http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/tee_test/4col.html

If you click 'open' in the outer left column, it get expanded and you
 can clearly see the inner column couldn't adjust its height


I only had a quick look on the source-code, but the layout seems to
behave as it should - given the relationship between those containers.
You have nested containers - which will behave the same as equivalently
nested HTML tables.

- #left is an independent container, so it will, and should, only affect
height of its parent - #wrap.
- #right is on its own, and will not be affected by, or have an effect
on, #left.
- #right - and all containers inside #right - will of course affect
height of #wrap, since both #left and #right are children of #wrap.
This makes it appear as if #right is affecting the height of #left, but
not the other way around. It's just an illusion though.

Now, if you want #left to affect the height of #right, #left must be a
child of #right.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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re: [WSG] Article: creating drop cap on the fly

[Kevin McMonagle]

 

> I'd appreciate any comment that would help me improve this article:
> http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/the_perfect_drop_cap.asp
> 

Looks good, if you decrease the font size by one or two than the drop cap 
indent goes way in. 
Is there a way to fix that. 
-best
kvnmcwbn





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RE: [WSG] hr won't turn black

[michael.brockington]

I thought that this 'discussion' had been done and dusted a week or two
ago, but it seems not.

In some cases (though certainly not all)  an HR  _does_ have semantic
value, that is why its name is being changed to 'seperator' in HTML5,
apparently.
By the sounds of it, the poster is using  an HR as a seperator,
therefore it has more than just presentational value. As a comparison,
try removing all of your P tags, and see if the white space they give
you is purely presentational!

Regards,
Mike

> -Original Message-
> From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mordechai Peller
> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:58 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] hr won't turn black
> 
> >   
> So granted, hr is /purely/ presentational, but if your 
> objective is to 
> show a separation between two sections, I can think of a 
> better element 
> to do that. In fact, I can think of six elements which can do 
> that and 
> all of them are much more semantically valuable then an hr, namely h1 
> through h6. Now you can hae the best of all worlds: text browsers get 
> text, screen readers get words, and graphical browsers can 
> get a textual 
> separator, a graphical separator, or both.
> 
> 
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> 


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Re: [WSG] Opera 9.10 Margin

[Sarah Peeke (XERT)]

Thanks David - look forward to the new release.

I've put in a dreaded  to solve the problem for now.

Much appreciated
Sarah :)

> You could possibly use a dotted border instead of an image for the  
> vertical pipe, but the one pixel issue is a Opera bug as it works  
> correctly in our public builds of Opera 9.2.  Development is wrapping  
> up shortly on 9.2, so it should be out soon.  you can test the page  
> using this build by downloading the weekly at http://my.opera.com/ 
> desktopteam/blog/
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> David Storey
> Chief Web Opener
> Opera Software ASA
-- 
XERT Communications
email: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
mobile: 0438 017 416


web development : digital imaging : dvd production


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RE: [WSG] trying to justify webstandards

[Chris Taylor]

I agree entirely with Rachel, web standards are (or should be) independent
of server-side technology. It's the HTML/CSS that gets outputted to the
browser that matters, regardless of what creates that output. I split my
time between .net and PHP and web standards are perfectly possible in both
(although admittedly I've had to bash Visual Studio around a bit to do what
I want, rather than what it thinks I want :0)

 

There are enough heated open source/Microsoft discussions going on at the
moment (Windows/Linux for server/desktop, MS Office/Open Office, IE/FF etc).
It would be a huge shame for web standards - and the associated
accessibility issues - to be dismissed by the Windows crowd as another fad
of the pony-tailed lefties ;0)

 

Chris

 

  _  

From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rachel May
Sent: 20 February 2007 00:45
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] trying to justify webstandards

 

Hi Robin,

The first thing I notice is the different doctype between pages - the last
one you mentioned (.net) has a HTML4 strict, and the other one you developed
has XHTML transitional. I expect that this is a big part of the difference.
Also, because of the different doctype, the page doesn't validate.  Try
fixing these problems and see if that fixes the layout problems.

 

 

In regard to your larger issue of web standards on .net platform - I work
for a company that uses .net programming base; I do the design, html, css
front end stuff and am responsible for web standards stuff in our office.
The way I see it is that there should be no reason why web standards can't
be used in both types of environments (granted I am ignorant of programming
in either PHP or .net, but I achieve web standards front-ends in both
environments). If there is separation of content, functionality and
presentation which is best for programmers too, then you should be able to
work in a web standards front-end even if it is a .net back-end.  Web
standards should be separate from the programming language/platform used.

 

So it might pay to pitch it to them as a programming best practice for
.netters, instead of a LAMP vs. Microsoft thing.  If they can separate the
functionality from content and presentation then it will actually make their
programming lives easier too (or so our developer says - again I can't speak
from personal experience here) and enable you to develop web standard HTML
and CSS.

 

There are also .net developers on this list, so you could always ask someone
at your affiliated company to register to this list for advice.

 

Cheers,

Rachel

 

 

 

  _  

From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Robin @ Xplore.net
Sent: Tuesday, 20 February 2007 1:07 p.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] trying to justify webstandards

 

Hi Group,

 

Our web development company is a LAMP based company and we are affiliated
with another web development that is .Net based. I have been preaching to
our affiliated company about the benefits of developing using web standards
(which they see as pie in the sky) and best practices, but my bleating has
mainly fallen on deaf ears, so to try and prove a point I have taken one of
their recent site builds http://www.needanerd.co.nz
<http://www.needanerd.co.nz/>  and quickly rebuilt it in Lamp environment
(http://training.xtools.co.nz/need_a_nerd/index.htm ) to show how the code
can be leaner reducing band width more accessible etc, I have now been asked
to put this on to their cms (.net)
http://dev18.xplore.net:99/need_a_nerd_test_44.aspx  but even though I use
the same style sheet and the same html I am still having problems with the
page displaying in IE, could some one shed any light on this problem for me
please.

I know the test site still needs polishing but it's the concept I am trying
to prove at the moment.

 

Thanks for your comments

 

Robin Gorry

Senior Web Developer

Xplore Net Solutions 

d:  00 64 (0)6 834 24 84

f:  00 64 (0)6 834 24 86

e :  <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

w: www.xplore.net <http://www.xplore.net/>  

 

Take control of your website - ask me today about Xsite-tomorrows Content
Management System

CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may
also be privileged. 
If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and
do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or
store or copy the information in any medium.

 


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Re: [WSG] Opera 9.10 Margin

[David Storey]

You could possibly use a dotted border instead of an image for the  
vertical pipe, but the one pixel issue is a Opera bug as it works  
correctly in our public builds of Opera 9.2.  Development is wrapping  
up shortly on 9.2, so it should be out soon.  you can test the page  
using this build by downloading the weekly at http://my.opera.com/ 
desktopteam/blog/


Thanks,

David Storey
Chief Web Opener
Opera Software ASA

On 20 Feb 2007, at 10:09, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:


Hi Kepler,

Many thanks for your reply.

However I already have a background image on the  elements (the
vertical pipe separating each link), and I have not found a way to add
this extra image as a background the the first element.

Do you have any suggestions please?


Hi Sarah,

The problem appears to be the  tag you have embedded in the  
first

list
item. The img has a height of 12px and is enlarging the list item
containing
Home.

A better solution would be to remove the img tag from the first list
item
and use a background URL instead:

In mytest.css:
  #footer li.first { padding-left: 15px; background: url('home.gif')
no-repeat; }

In index.html:
  
  Footer Navigation
  
  Home
  About


--
XERT Communications
email: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
mobile: 0438 017 416


web development : digital imaging : dvd production


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David Storey
Chief Web Opener
Opera Software
Oslo, Norway

W: http://my.opera.com/dstorey
✉ : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
✆ : +47 24 16 42 26





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RE: [WSG] Opera 9.10 Margin

[Sarah Peeke (XERT)]

Hi Kepler,

Many thanks for your reply.

However I already have a background image on the  elements (the
vertical pipe separating each link), and I have not found a way to add
this extra image as a background the the first element.

Do you have any suggestions please?

> Hi Sarah,
> 
> The problem appears to be the  tag you have embedded in the first 
> list
> item. The img has a height of 12px and is enlarging the list item 
> containing
> Home. 
> 
> A better solution would be to remove the img tag from the first list 
> item
> and use a background URL instead:
> 
> In mytest.css:
>   #footer li.first { padding-left: 15px; background: url('home.gif')
> no-repeat; }
> 
> In index.html:
>   
>   Footer Navigation
>   
>   Home
>   About
> 
-- 
XERT Communications
email: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
mobile: 0438 017 416


web development : digital imaging : dvd production


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Re: [WSG] when i turn css off

[Dwain Alford]

lol.  sometimes i love sarcasm.

dwain

On 2/20/07, Tee G. Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On Feb 19, 2007, at 11:18 PM, Dwain Alford wrote:

> when i tiurn css off on a page i have done everything reverts to
> default (i.e. h1, h2, etc.) and lines up down the left side of the
> page.  without using tables, is there a way to maintain the layout
> when css is turned off?
>
> dwain
>
Hmmm Is there a way to make a over worked woman who constantly
get beatup up by clients ridiculours request to look radiant in the
afternoon when she woke up, without taking take a bath, have her cup
of black coffee and without putting up her makeup?

Sorry, I just can't resist.


tee


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--
dwain alford
p.o. box 145
winfield, alabama  35594
u.s.a.

tele:  205.487.2570
cell:  205.495.5619


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Re: [WSG] when i turn css off

[Tee G. Peng]

On Feb 19, 2007, at 11:18 PM, Dwain Alford wrote:

when i tiurn css off on a page i have done everything reverts to  
default (i.e. h1, h2, etc.) and lines up down the left side of the  
page.  without using tables, is there a way to maintain the layout  
when css is turned off?


dwain

Hmmm Is there a way to make a over worked woman who constantly  
get beatup up by clients ridiculours request to look radiant in the  
afternoon when she woke up, without taking take a bath, have her cup  
of black coffee and without putting up her makeup?


Sorry, I just can't resist.


tee


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RE: [WSG] Opera 9.10 Margin

[Kepler Gelotte]

Hi Sarah,

The problem appears to be the  tag you have embedded in the first list
item. The img has a height of 12px and is enlarging the list item containing
Home. 

A better solution would be to remove the img tag from the first list item
and use a background URL instead:

In mytest.css:
#footer li.first { padding-left: 15px; background: url('home.gif')
no-repeat; }

In index.html:

Footer Navigation

Home
About
...

Regards,
Kepler Gelotte
http://www.neighborwebmaster.com


-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Sarah Peeke (XERT)
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:43 PM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] Opera 9.10 Margin

One more query please:

Can anyone please explain why in Opera 9.10 (both WIN XP and Mac OSX)
that the first navigation list element sits a pixel lower than the
others.

They all line up perfectly in other browsers (despite the icon in the
first link).

URL: 
CSS: 

Many thanks folks...
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XERT Communications
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Re: [WSG] when i turn css off

[Aja Lorenzo Lapus]

I think there's no way to retain the layout when CSS is turned off
except for using presentational attributes which are already
deprecated and NOT recommended. That is why you have to consider the
flow of your content when creating your Web pages so that it would
still make sense even when viewed linearly.

On 2/20/07, Dwain Alford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

when i tiurn css off on a page i have done everything reverts to default
(i.e. h1, h2, etc.) and lines up down the left side of the page.  without
using tables, is there a way to maintain the layout when css is turned off?

dwain

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ADMIN: THREAD CLOSED Re: [WSG] RSS feeds

[Lea de Groot]

We're off topic with this thread - if any further responses could go 
back to the OP that would be great.
(As ever, if you have a way to drag it on topic, ie a discussion of how 
to implement it in standards, please go ahead!)

warmly,
Lea
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ADMIN: THREAD CLOSED Re: [WSG] Site Issue - opinions please

[Lea de Groot]

Hi guys,

This thread doesn't seem to be on topic - perhaps a design list would 
be more appropriate?
If you need help getting a drop down (etc) to work, we're here for you, 
but what sort of design element to use isn't on topic.
Sorry!

Any further responses should go straight to Christian

warmly,
Lea
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On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:24:46 +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The issue at the moment is to do with the red drop down list/menu at 
> the top left hand corner of the site
> 
> People here want to expand the menu so that the contents of each list 
> are printed down under each heading. Your thoughts pleaseIt's 
> alright if you think the same way but I think a drop down menu, in 
> this case, runs rings around the alternative


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Re: [WSG] hr won't turn black

[Mordechai Peller]

Hassan Schroeder wrote:

Your HR will show a logical separation exists without depending on
presentational styling via CSS.

But I won't see your pretty /non-semantic/ DIV border using Lynx,
for example...
  
So granted, hr is /purely/ presentational, but if your objective is to 
show a separation between two sections, I can think of a better element 
to do that. In fact, I can think of six elements which can do that and 
all of them are much more semantically valuable then an hr, namely h1 
through h6. Now you can hae the best of all worlds: text browsers get 
text, screen readers get words, and graphical browsers can get a textual 
separator, a graphical separator, or both.



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Re: [WSG] IE 6 Horizontal Menu Shift

[Sarah Peeke (XERT)]

Many thanks Philippe,

I managed to add a 40px left padding to the IE6 style sheet, and leave
it as 4% for other browsers. Not perfect, but workable.

Much appreciated :)

> > When you click on a link in Win XP IE6 the whole list moves
> > horizontally.
> >
> > I've tried lots of things, but can't seem to find the bug.
> >
> > URL: 
> > CSS: 
> 
> % margins bug
> 
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Re: [WSG] IE 6 Horizontal Menu Shift

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Feb 20, 2007, at 1:03 PM, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:


When you click on a link in Win XP IE6 the whole list moves
horizontally.

I've tried lots of things, but can't seem to find the bug.

URL: 
CSS: 


% margins bug


Philippe
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