[LUTE] Re: Melchior Neusidler
An opportunity to use thumb position in a rare moment of cello envy. It is so fun :) d At 11:03 PM 1/27/2009, you wrote: === 28-01-2009 05:04:31 === The vast majority of the early lutes had no body frets, and the high notes can be easily and with a nice but distinctively different sound played all the way up the B flat (imaginary fret 15) on the soundboard.. I particularly like the easily ... played speaking of frets up to imaginary 15, David... ;-))) Jean-Marie jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 28-01-2009 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: how to upload high quality video to YT
I thought you would set us right, David. Thanks as ever. Rob 2009/1/28 David Tayler [1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net The best way is to save your video in AVCHD (or H264, it is the same) in 720p, non interlaced, widescreen, square pixels, 11 mbps, 320kbs audio (preferably 44.1). That way, your video will be future proofed, in addition to looking good in full screen. In addition, you can then specify a custom window size. Also, HQ is not really HQ, you want HD. HQ is not a good way to save the video. It should not be 4:3, it should be 720p. dt At 06:17 AM 1/27/2009, you wrote: I picked this up from another discussion group, but haven't tried it yet. Lots of people on the group responded saying it made a big difference. Rob So ever since YouTube has added their High Quality feature, I tried doing some reasearch on how to upload videos that enables the HQ format for YOUR videos. I read somewhere that you have to save the format to 512 kbps broadband. For months I thought that was it. But no, its WRONG. So I've found a solution. It's easy and simple! * Upload video from camera and open video on Windows movie maker (should come with your computer) * When saving your movie file, make sure that instead of choosing 'Best quality for playback for my computer', choose 'other settings * Click on Local playback (2.1) mbps * Save it, watch it, upload on YT! It's as easy as that. I've noticed that your video format has to be in a 4:3 aspect ratio, not 16:9. That should be automatic though. 2.1 mbps is way larger than 512 kb, but it still shouldn't take up much space. Depending on the length of your video, the upload process will range from a few minutes to a lotta minutes. -- Ibarr -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Melchior Neusidler
Le 28 janv. 09 à 05:04, David Tayler a écrit : The vast majority of the early lutes had no body frets, and the high notes can be easily and with a nice but distinctively different sound played all the way up the B flat (imaginary fret 15) on the soundboard.. Some lutes either show body frets or curious decorative squiggles, but these are a minority report. We can rule out the orpharion for Neusidler, I think, since it hadn't been invented yet. The anhemitonic principle in fretting is well documented, for some composers, 12 came after 10. If we built the lutes to favor the fretless sound for the high positions, they would produce an even better sound. How would the soundboards differ? Would it be a question of thickness, or some sort of shaping? Stephen Gottlieb told me that the French Baroque lutenists shunned higher frets because of what they considered was the poor sound. Unfortunately, without checking, I assumed he meant that they did not use at all, whereas now, I suspect he meant they did not like their sound. I had body frets installed anyway, as my lute can also function as a 10c lute, but there again, I now suppose I could have done without. On my student lute I had cellotaped a piece of fret gut for top frets, and I imagine that would be a better solution. Anthony I suspect they had tastini or gluons as well, just for one or two notes. dt At 05:56 AM 1/27/2009, you wrote: Presumably he didn't have an 11th fret, so his 11th fret is our 12th, if you see what I mean. :-) Yes, that makes sense, as do the other responses about the reasons that there might not have been an eleventh fret. Wouldn't that mean all or most of the lutes at the time all were set up this way? Neusidler would have used the symbol that would have been useful to the most player, even if his own lute was idiosyncratic. A little later, Molinaro (Fantasia XII, 1599) uses 'X' (ten), 'n' (eleven) and '13' (thirteen), but I cannot find a twelfth fret marking! Does anyone know what the 'n' stands for? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Melchior Neusidler
I suppose you are talking about the fact that the wooden frets are fixed and may not correspond to the tuning that you are using, or do you mean that there is a difference of tone with a wooden fret? When I mentionned Stephen's having set my Baroque lute in 6th comma, many people here protested that French Baroque lute must have been very close to Equal, and yet Stephen told me that French Baroque players shunned wooden frets because of their poor sound. I am now wondering whether this might imply that they did vary their tuning, or simply that the sound of a gut fret and a wooden fret are distinct, and this was what they disliked, or again simply theu did not like the extreme high as they did tend to revel in the mid rather than top or bass. I would be glad to receive some enlightenment about that. Anthony Le 28 janv. 09 à 08:02, Daniel Winheld a écrit : I once tore the wooden frets off my six-course lute (got sick of bad intonation with gut midrange bass strings) and played it that way for a few years. One soon learns to fret those notes with correct intonation after a reasonable amount of proper practice, and a whole new sound register opens up. In fact, with or without body frets I recommend that all serious lute students- when the general level of competence permits- should spend time practicing scales improvised passagi beyond the frets. One toccata by Piccinini (Posthumous 2nd volume published in 1639 by his son Leonardo Maria Piccinini) goes to the 19th semitone- about 1/4 short of the rose on my archlute- and most of us could certainly go to the 15th semitone. An added bonus from this practice is fluency within the standard one octave compass. Far too many of us suddenly shut down and stop when sight reading (duets, for instance) when the action goes beyond the 7th fret. Beyond the frets, there is neither hemitonic nor anhemitonic; a liberating tonic to the ear. But you got to learn precision, which pays dividends. Dan The vast majority of the early lutes had no body frets, and the high notes can be easily and with a nice but distinctively different sound played all the way up the B flat (imaginary fret 15) on the soundboard.. Some lutes either show body frets or curious decorative squiggles, but these are a minority report. We can rule out the orpharion for Neusidler, I think, since it hadn't been invented yet. The anhemitonic principle in fretting is well documented, for some composers, 12 came after 10. If we built the lutes to favor the fretless sound for the high positions, they would produce an even better sound. I suspect they had tastini or gluons as well, just for one or two notes. dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fun with Joy
Peter, there is nothing holy about that bass line. Here is a link to an mp3 of the cittern version in the Robert Edwards Commonplace Book, Dundee c.1650 [1]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/audio/index.html and there is a link on the same page to the tablature (in diatonic tuning). Rob MacKillop 2009/1/27 Peter Nightingale [2]n...@pobox.com Dear All, I am in the process of transcribing a version of Joy to the Person for archlute. This link points to what I am working from: [3]http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joy_to.pdf I guess the only original part is the melody and that all the rest was written by Steven Hendricks, whoever that may be. I have a problem with the A minor cord at the beginning of the penultimate measure of the second system. Originally, I had that as an E on the 8th course together with an open third course a, but I do not like the sound of that, and that is where my wild speculation starts. The game I think I should play is that I treat Hendrick's (?) bass line as holy, apart from octave liberties. If one were to play a realization of that bass line, I do not think one would play an A minor chord in second inversion on the first beat of measure 7, but possibly a first inversion C major chord would be OK given the stepwise motion of the bass. (This seems to have the blessing of Coprario, Simpson, Locke and Mace, which beats a blessing of the the Holy Trinity by one.) So far, this is what I have in tab: [4]http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joytab.pdf Obviously, I am way out of my physics depth here, so please straighten me out. Thanks, Peter. the next auto-quote is: In violence we forget who we are. (Mary McCarthy) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/audio/index.html 2. mailto:n...@pobox.com 3. http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joy_to.pdf 4. http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joytab.pdf 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net schrieb: Without wishing to go too far down this path, modern performance practice does not really reflect the historical sources for trills and other ornamnents. The appogiatura was as long or longer than the main note, and they had 23 or so basic types of agreements, Didn't know the exact number (or is that an estimated number like 3.785?), thanks! I know ornament tables by Rameau or Couperin, but would you say that applied, say, a hundred years earlier, too, like with Mesangeau, Gaultier, Bocquet? As opposed to 30 years ago, the source material is now readily available--even online--and the situation is starting to change, which creates lots of nice opportunities. So let's turn to a live object. I'm currently practising an allemande in A minor by Bocquet (Oeuvres des Bocquet, CNRS edition, piece # 8, p. 77 = Vm7 6214, fol.6v-7). If that is available to you, what do say about the execution of the ornaments? Mathias tablatures for d-minor tuning in the CNRS Bocquet volume are by a Mlle. Bocquet. Apparently, Monique Rollin did not have a single shred of evidence that this music was by one of the two lute-playing Mlles. Bocquet. The attribution was entirely speculative. One wishes it were so, but it is not. It was for want of any other suitable candidate. There's merely the name Bocquet, mentioned without given name, in tablatures of the 2nd half of the 17th century. Rollin says at the very beginning of her introduction (op. cit., p. xxiii-xxvi) that one cannot be sure. So, it remains her suggestion, and may I add, quite a convincing one IMO. The material she offers, and her arguments, possibly qualify as a bit more than a shred. Not of evidence, to be sure, but of plausibility. See the review by Henry L. Schmidt in Notes, Vol. 29, No. 4 (June, 1973) pp. 784-786. I don't have access to that review (it's not available at our local university library), unfortunately. Would you mind to give an abstract or something to that effect? Mathias Dear Collected Wisdom, in several threads, Stewart, David Tayler, Jorge, et al nicely sorted out this topic (Re: French Style, and Re: A very basic question), concluding that a trill consists of appogiatura (coule), which is necessary, trill (tremblement), which is desirable, and termination (cadence) in special cases. However, the comma (curved line right to the letter) is without further elaboration explained as simple trill in the CNRS edition of Bocquet (Monique Rollin, Corpus des luthistes franc,ais, Oeuvres des Bocquet, 1972, p. xxxiii), i. e. without appogiatura. And it makes sense with the music by Mlle. Bocquet. Could it be that appogiatura is not as essential to the French trill as it previously may have seemed? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
Have you looked at the Principes de musique of Monteclair, because that I think is one of the most important sources for ornamentation practice, and then the airs avec doubles of Lambert for the brouderie style you can feather in. dt the 17th centurtyairs avec doubles of Lambert At 02:16 AM 1/28/2009, you wrote: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net schrieb: Without wishing to go too far down this path, modern performance practice does not really reflect the historical sources for trills and other ornamnents. The appogiatura was as long or longer than the main note, and they had 23 or so basic types of agreements, Didn't know the exact number (or is that an estimated number like 3.785?), thanks! I know ornament tables by Rameau or Couperin, but would you say that applied, say, a hundred years earlier, too, like with Mesangeau, Gaultier, Bocquet? As opposed to 30 years ago, the source material is now readily available--even online--and the situation is starting to change, which creates lots of nice opportunities. So let's turn to a live object. I'm currently practising an allemande in A minor by Bocquet (Oeuvres des Bocquet, CNRS edition, piece # 8, p. 77 = Vm7 6214, fol.6v-7). If that is available to you, what do say about the execution of the ornaments? Mathias tablatures for d-minor tuning in the CNRS Bocquet volume are by a Mlle. Bocquet. Apparently, Monique Rollin did not have a single shred of evidence that this music was by one of the two lute-playing Mlles. Bocquet. The attribution was entirely speculative. One wishes it were so, but it is not. It was for want of any other suitable candidate. There's merely the name Bocquet, mentioned without given name, in tablatures of the 2nd half of the 17th century. Rollin says at the very beginning of her introduction (op. cit., p. xxiii-xxvi) that one cannot be sure. So, it remains her suggestion, and may I add, quite a convincing one IMO. The material she offers, and her arguments, possibly qualify as a bit more than a shred. Not of evidence, to be sure, but of plausibility. See the review by Henry L. Schmidt in Notes, Vol. 29, No. 4 (June, 1973) pp. 784-786. I don't have access to that review (it's not available at our local university library), unfortunately. Would you mind to give an abstract or something to that effect? Mathias Dear Collected Wisdom, in several threads, Stewart, David Tayler, Jorge, et al nicely sorted out this topic (Re: French Style, and Re: A very basic question), concluding that a trill consists of appogiatura (coule), which is necessary, trill (tremblement), which is desirable, and termination (cadence) in special cases. However, the comma (curved line right to the letter) is without further elaboration explained as simple trill in the CNRS edition of Bocquet (Monique Rollin, Corpus des luthistes franc,ais, Oeuvres des Bocquet, 1972, p. xxxiii), i. e. without appogiatura. And it makes sense with the music by Mlle. Bocquet. Could it be that appogiatura is not as essential to the French trill as it previously may have seemed? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fun with Joy
Peter: I agree with Rob. The entirely serviceable harmonization you are working from is the work of Kenneth Elliott, editor of _Music of Scotland 1500-1700_, from the Musica Britannica series, and originally set as a keyboard accompaniment to the orphan melody. The cittern setting offers sparse alternatives but so does the lute setting from the Balcarres ms. I've always loved this melody but the text becomes tiresome after a few stanzas of monumental self-pity. Good luck. Best wishes, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:04:58 + To: n...@pobox.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: luteplay...@googlemail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Fun with Joy Peter, there is nothing holy about that bass line. Here is a link to an mp3 of the cittern version in the Robert Edwards Commonplace Book, Dundee c.1650 [1]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/audio/index.html and there is a link on the same page to the tablature (in diatonic tuning). Rob MacKillop 2009/1/27 Peter Nightingale [2]n...@pobox.com Dear All, I am in the process of transcribing a version of Joy to the Person for archlute. This link points to what I am working from: [3]http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joy_to.pdf I guess the only original part is the melody and that all the rest was written by Steven Hendricks, whoever that may be. I have a problem with the A minor cord at the beginning of the penultimate measure of the second system. Originally, I had that as an E on the 8th course together with an open third course a, but I do not like the sound of that, and that is where my wild speculation starts. The game I think I should play is that I treat Hendrick's (?) bass line as holy, apart from octave liberties. If one were to play a realization of that bass line, I do not think one would play an A minor chord in second inversion on the first beat of measure 7, but possibly a first inversion C major chord would be OK given the stepwise motion of the bass. (This seems to have the blessing of Coprario, Simpson, Locke and Mace, which beats a blessing of the the Holy Trinity by one.) So far, this is what I have in tab: [4]http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joytab.pdf Obviously, I am way out of my physics depth here, so please straighten me out. Thanks, Peter. the next auto-quote is: In violence we forget who we are. (Mary McCarthy) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/audio/index.html 2. mailto:n...@pobox.com 3. http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joy_to.pdf 4. http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joytab.pdf 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail(R) goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. [1]See how. -- References 1. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208
[LUTE] Re: Fun with Joy
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Rob MacKillop wrote:
Peter, there is nothing holy about that bass line.
Thanks, I suspected as much, but it's good to hear it confirmed. I am
still curious about what that infamous chord should be if one pretends
that the bass line is given. After all, I am a theoretical physicist and
hypotheticals are the air I breathe. My admittedly totally inadequate
understanding, based mostly on what Nigel North has to say about continuo
playing, is that a 6/4 chord does not agree with what would have been
expected in the first part of the 17th century, a period derived from my
instrument not necessarily the tune itself.
I am also a practical person, if I can steal without modification, that
is a lot less work. From that point of view, changing the middle voices
is easier than changing the bass line, and then the question is should I
change anything at all?
Here is a link to an mp3 of the cittern version in the Robert Edwards
Commonplace Book, Dundee c.1650
http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/audio/index.html and there is a link
on the same page to the tablature (in diatonic tuning).
I had already found your cittern tablature and mp3; and I like to take the
opportunity to thank you for your generosity in posting all this marvelous
music on your web sites (e.g. http://www.songoftherose.co.uk/); I marvel
at the beauty of your playing.
Wayne drew my attention to yet another version of this tune. It's from
in the Balcarres ms
(http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tablature.cgi?Balcarres/031_Joy.pdf)
All of this tablature sounds really interesting with Renaissance tuning,
which is all I have. {Sigh!}
Peter.
Rob MacKillop
2009/1/27 Peter Nightingale n...@pobox.com
Dear All,
I am in the process of transcribing a version of Joy to the Person for
archlute. This link points to what I am working from:
http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joy_to.pdf
I guess the only original part is the melody and that all the rest was
written by Steven Hendricks, whoever that may be. I have a problem with
the A minor cord at the beginning of the penultimate measure of the second
system. Originally, I had that as an E on the 8th course together with an
open third course a, but I do not like the sound of that, and that is
where my wild speculation starts.
The game I think I should play is that I treat Hendrick's (?) bass line
as holy, apart from octave liberties. If one were to play a realization
of that bass line, I do not think one would play an A minor chord in
second inversion on the first beat of measure 7, but possibly a first
inversion C major chord would be OK given the stepwise motion of the bass.
(This seems to have the blessing of Coprario, Simpson, Locke and Mace,
which beats a blessing of the the Holy Trinity by one.)
So far, this is what I have in tab:
http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joytab.pdf
Obviously, I am way out of my physics depth here, so please straighten me
out.
Thanks,
Peter.
the next auto-quote is:
In violence we forget who we are.
(Mary McCarthy)
/\/\
Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882
Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380
University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
the next auto-quote is:
The peace I am thinking of is the dance of an open
mind when it engages an equally open one.
(Toni Morrisson)
/\/\
Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882
Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380
University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881
[LUTE] Re: Fun with Joy
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Ron Andrico wrote: Peter: I agree with Rob. The entirely serviceable harmonization you are working from is the work of Kenneth Elliott, editor of _Music of Scotland 1500-1700_, from the Musica Britannica series, and originally set as a keyboard accompaniment to the orphan melody. Thanks! Now at least I know where Hendricks got his inspiration. As I just explained to Rob, I still have a theoretical question. In addition to the fact that my ears tell me that something ain't right, but I a ready to fix my ears if so instructed by those who know more than I do. The cittern setting offers sparse alternatives but so does the lute setting from the Balcarres ms. I've always loved this melody but the text becomes tiresome after a few stanzas of monumental self-pity. Yes, I agree; I know about the three stanzas, the ones the Baltimore Consort have one their CD. They seem to come from From The Roxburghe Ballads edited by Charles Hindley. I was considering adding the third one of those, but even that may already be pushing it, unless I add a coffee break of sorts. Thanks again, Peter. Good luck. Best wishes, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:04:58 + To: n...@pobox.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: luteplay...@googlemail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Fun with Joy Peter, there is nothing holy about that bass line. Here is a link to an mp3 of the cittern version in the Robert Edwards Commonplace Book, Dundee c.1650 [1]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/audio/index.html and there is a link on the same page to the tablature (in diatonic tuning). Rob MacKillop 2009/1/27 Peter Nightingale [2]n...@pobox.com Dear All, I am in the process of transcribing a version of Joy to the Person for archlute. This link points to what I am working from: [3]http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joy_to.pdf I guess the only original part is the melody and that all the rest was written by Steven Hendricks, whoever that may be. I have a problem with the A minor cord at the beginning of the penultimate measure of the second system. Originally, I had that as an E on the 8th course together with an open third course a, but I do not like the sound of that, and that is where my wild speculation starts. The game I think I should play is that I treat Hendrick's (?) bass line as holy, apart from octave liberties. If one were to play a realization of that bass line, I do not think one would play an A minor chord in second inversion on the first beat of measure 7, but possibly a first inversion C major chord would be OK given the stepwise motion of the bass. (This seems to have the blessing of Coprario, Simpson, Locke and Mace, which beats a blessing of the the Holy Trinity by one.) So far, this is what I have in tab: [4]http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joytab.pdf Obviously, I am way out of my physics depth here, so please straighten me out. Thanks, Peter. the next auto-quote is: In violence we forget who we are. (Mary McCarthy) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/audio/index.html 2. mailto:n...@pobox.com 3. http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joy_to.pdf 4. http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joytab.pdf 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail(R) goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. [1]See how. -- References 1. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208 the next auto-quote is: The wise man belongs to all countries, for the home of a great soul is the whole world. (Democritus) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881
[LUTE] Re: Melchior Neusidler
Anthony-Yes- as well as difficulty compensating for variability of fingering for correct intonation among differing diameter strings, particularly thick basses- no matter what the tuning system.. The tone color is another point I forgot to mention- it is different with wooden frets, not always unacceptable but never an improvement. Having tied gut 10th frets on my vihuela and my archlute really feels sounds right. Can't help out on the French Baroque, except that the comments you offer sound about right. The famous portrait of Charles Mouton, the epitome of a top professional French lute player- excruciatingly correct in all its details- exhibits a most definitive absence of wooden body frets. Dan I suppose you are talking about the fact that the wooden frets are fixed and may not correspond to the tuning that you are using, or do you mean that there is a difference of tone with a wooden fret? When I mentionned Stephen's having set my Baroque lute in 6th comma, many people here protested that French Baroque lute must have been very close to Equal, and yet Stephen told me that French Baroque players shunned wooden frets because of their poor sound. I am now wondering whether this might imply that they did vary their tuning, or simply that the sound of a gut fret and a wooden fret are distinct, and this was what they disliked, or again simply theu did not like the extreme high as they did tend to revel in the mid rather than top or bass. I would be glad to receive some enlightenment about that. Anthony Le 28 janv. 09 à 08:02, Daniel Winheld a écrit : I once tore the wooden frets off my six-course lute (got sick of bad intonation with gut midrange bass strings) and played it that way for a few years. One soon learns to fret those notes with correct intonation after a reasonable amount of proper practice, and a whole new sound register opens up. In fact, with or without body frets I recommend that all serious lute students- when the general level of competence permits- should spend time practicing scales improvised passagi beyond the frets. One toccata by Piccinini (Posthumous 2nd volume published in 1639 by his son Leonardo Maria Piccinini) goes to the 19th semitone- about 1/4 short of the rose on my archlute- and most of us could certainly go to the 15th semitone. An added bonus from this practice is fluency within the standard one octave compass. Far too many of us suddenly shut down and stop when sight reading (duets, for instance) when the action goes beyond the 7th fret. Beyond the frets, there is neither hemitonic nor anhemitonic; a liberating tonic to the ear. But you got to learn precision, which pays dividends. Dan The vast majority of the early lutes had no body frets, and the high notes can be easily and with a nice but distinctively different sound played all the way up the B flat (imaginary fret 15) on the soundboard.. Some lutes either show body frets or curious decorative squiggles, but these are a minority report. We can rule out the orpharion for Neusidler, I think, since it hadn't been invented yet. The anhemitonic principle in fretting is well documented, for some composers, 12 came after 10. If we built the lutes to favor the fretless sound for the high positions, they would produce an even better sound. I suspect they had tastini or gluons as well, just for one or two notes. dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Rachel Winheld 820 Colusa Avenue Berkeley, CA 94707 rwinh...@comcast.net Tel 510.526.0242 Cell 510.915.4276
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's knight of the lute
Dear Lex, I have found this file, but i saw this piece in other formation, actually, I'm sure i saw it in other format... But I can handle it, i think... Thank you for your help! On Jan 27, 2009, at 10:50 AM, Lex van Sante wrote: Hi Omar, This piece isn't by Dowland at all. Equus Romanus aka the knight of the lute was possibly identical with Laurencini of Rome. Richard Civiol; has put a PDF of the variety of lute lessens 1610 on the net in which this piece is to be found. Happy hunting! Lex van Sante To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net schrieb: Have you looked at the Principes de musique of Monteclair, because that I think is one of the most important sources for ornamentation practice, There's certainly no argument about the importance of Montéclair's book. 1736 is a bit late, though, regarding composers of Mesangeau's generation (1638), don't you think? and then the airs avec doubles of Lambert for the brouderie style you can feather in. That was a bit too colloquial for me, I'm afaid. What is brouderie, and what does feather in mean? And how do airs de court by Michel Lambert (several volumes 1660-1710), father-in-law to Lully, elucidate, and relate to, ornaments in French baroque lute music (with French lute composers trying to differ from contemporary mainstream music-making as much as they could)? Mathias the 17th centurtyairs avec doubles of Lambert At 02:16 AM 1/28/2009, you wrote: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net schrieb: Without wishing to go too far down this path, modern performance practice does not really reflect the historical sources for trills and other ornamnents. The appogiatura was as long or longer than the main note, and they had 23 or so basic types of agreements, Didn't know the exact number (or is that an estimated number like 3.785?), thanks! I know ornament tables by Rameau or Couperin, but would you say that applied, say, a hundred years earlier, too, like with Mesangeau, Gaultier, Bocquet? As opposed to 30 years ago, the source material is now readily available--even online--and the situation is starting to change, which creates lots of nice opportunities. So let's turn to a live object. I'm currently practising an allemande in A minor by Bocquet (Oeuvres des Bocquet, CNRS edition, piece # 8, p. 77 = Vm7 6214, fol.6v-7). If that is available to you, what do say about the execution of the ornaments? Mathias tablatures for d-minor tuning in the CNRS Bocquet volume are by a Mlle. Bocquet. Apparently, Monique Rollin did not have a single shred of evidence that this music was by one of the two lute-playing Mlles. Bocquet. The attribution was entirely speculative. One wishes it were so, but it is not. It was for want of any other suitable candidate. There's merely the name Bocquet, mentioned without given name, in tablatures of the 2nd half of the 17th century. Rollin says at the very beginning of her introduction (op. cit., p. xxiii-xxvi) that one cannot be sure. So, it remains her suggestion, and may I add, quite a convincing one IMO. The material she offers, and her arguments, possibly qualify as a bit more than a shred. Not of evidence, to be sure, but of plausibility. See the review by Henry L. Schmidt in Notes, Vol. 29, No. 4 (June, 1973) pp. 784-786. I don't have access to that review (it's not available at our local university library), unfortunately. Would you mind to give an abstract or something to that effect? Mathias Dear Collected Wisdom, in several threads, Stewart, David Tayler, Jorge, et al nicely sorted out this topic (Re: French Style, and Re: A very basic question), concluding that a trill consists of appogiatura (coule), which is necessary, trill (tremblement), which is desirable, and termination (cadence) in special cases. However, the comma (curved line right to the letter) is without further elaboration explained as simple trill in the CNRS edition of Bocquet (Monique Rollin, Corpus des luthistes franc,ais, Oeuvres des Bocquet, 1972, p. xxxiii), i. e. without appogiatura. And it makes sense with the music by Mlle. Bocquet. Could it be that appogiatura is not as essential to the French trill as it previously may have seemed? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
=== 28-01-2009 19:21:00 === David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net schrieb: Have you looked at the Principes de musique of Monteclair, because that I think is one of the most important sources for ornamentation practice, There's certainly no argument about the importance of Montéclair's book. 1736 is a bit late, though, regarding composers of Mesangeau's generation (1638), don't you think? I think such a late source as Montéclair, interesting as i may be, is rather irrelevant in that case. Mersenne or the lute tutor for Mary Burwell (Boethius Press facsimile)are certainly much more reliable sources of information if you are into Mesangeau's music and the other lutenists of that period. and then the airs avec doubles of Lambert for the brouderie style you can feather in. That was a bit too colloquial for me, I'm afaid. What is brouderie, and what does feather in mean? I have a feeling that the word intended was broderie, i.e. the art of embroidery in French. When applied to music I suppose David means the art of making divisions and ornamenting a given musical text. I believe feather is a technical term in rowing and in this case would mean something like dig. But I may be totally wrong of course ;-) ! And how do airs de court by Michel Lambert (several volumes 1660-1710), father-in-law to Lully, elucidate, and relate to, ornaments in French baroque lute music (with French lute composers trying to differ from contemporary mainstream music-making as much as they could)? A good read on that comparative appoach of lute and harpsichord music is David Ledbetter's book Harpsichord and Lute Music in Seventeenth Century France, Indiana University Press, 1987. You probably know this one already. Mathias Best wishes, Jean-Marie jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 28-01-2009 N ¶è®ß¶¬+-±ç¥Ëbú+«b¢vÛiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?ë^iÙ¢ø§uìa¶i
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr said: I believe feather is a technical term in rowing and in this case would mean something like dig. But I may be totally wrong of course ;-) ! rather the opposite, one feathers an oar by twisting the wrists during the recovery stroke making the blade parallel to the water so it wont dig in. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fun with Joy
You can hear my harmonization of Joy to the Person here http://tinyurl.com/JoytothePerson I used chords that I found for similar pieces in English and Dutch collections of tune arrangements To my ear, the Musica Britannica harmonization does not reflect the shape of the line--Rob is right, it is serviceable :) dt dt At 06:09 AM 1/28/2009, you wrote: Peter: I agree with Rob. The entirely serviceable harmonization you are working from is the work of Kenneth Elliott, editor of _Music of Scotland 1500-1700_, from the Musica Britannica series, and originally set as a keyboard accompaniment to the orphan melody. The cittern setting offers sparse alternatives but so does the lute setting from the Balcarres ms. I've always loved this melody but the text becomes tiresome after a few stanzas of monumental self-pity. Good luck. Best wishes, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:04:58 + To: n...@pobox.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: luteplay...@googlemail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Fun with Joy Peter, there is nothing holy about that bass line. Here is a link to an mp3 of the cittern version in the Robert Edwards Commonplace Book, Dundee c.1650 [1]http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/audio/index.html and there is a link on the same page to the tablature (in diatonic tuning). Rob MacKillop 2009/1/27 Peter Nightingale [2]n...@pobox.com Dear All, I am in the process of transcribing a version of Joy to the Person for archlute. This link points to what I am working from: [3]http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joy_to.pdf I guess the only original part is the melody and that all the rest was written by Steven Hendricks, whoever that may be. I have a problem with the A minor cord at the beginning of the penultimate measure of the second system. Originally, I had that as an E on the 8th course together with an open third course a, but I do not like the sound of that, and that is where my wild speculation starts. The game I think I should play is that I treat Hendrick's (?) bass line as holy, apart from octave liberties. If one were to play a realization of that bass line, I do not think one would play an A minor chord in second inversion on the first beat of measure 7, but possibly a first inversion C major chord would be OK given the stepwise motion of the bass. (This seems to have the blessing of Coprario, Simpson, Locke and Mace, which beats a blessing of the the Holy Trinity by one.) So far, this is what I have in tab: [4]http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joytab.pdf Obviously, I am way out of my physics depth here, so please straighten me out. Thanks, Peter. the next auto-quote is: In violence we forget who we are. (Mary McCarthy) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://cittern.theaterofmusic.com/audio/index.html 2. mailto:n...@pobox.com 3. http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joy_to.pdf 4. http://www.phys.uri.edu/~nigh/Joy/joytab.pdf 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail(R) goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. [1]See how. -- References 1. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
On Jan 28, 2009, at 4:19 PM, dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: On Wed, Jan 28, 2009, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr said: I believe feather is a technical term in rowing and in this case would mean something like dig. But I may be totally wrong of course ;-) ! rather the opposite, one feathers an oar by twisting the wrists during the recovery stroke making the blade parallel to the water so it wont dig in. So, erm...what's that got to do with Baroque ornamentation? David Taylor's expression feathering them in, referring to certain kinds of ornaments, is a bit vague, but might have the connotation of touching the music very lightly with the ornaments. At least, touching something very lightly is one definition I read for feathering as a verb. Only DT knows for sure... David R dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] OT: Help at University of Amsterdam
I think we have some members from this area, so maybe someone can help a grad student. This is from another list, so if you can help, please contactA myron.patter...@utah.edu , TIA, Brad Little : Dear Colleagues, There is a graduate student here at the University of Utah trying to obtain a dissertation from the University of Amsterdam. A Is there anyone on this list who can supply a name of a librarian to contact in the Music Library at that institution. A My attempts through the regular channels have not been fruitful. A The graduate student needs the sought material rather urgently and would be most grateful for any help provided. Many thanks in advance. Myron Dr. Myron Patterson Music Dance Librarian Marriott Library Adjunct Associate Professor of Music School of Music University of Utah -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fourier measurements of lute sound. [Scanned]
... Fourier analysis ... Very Good. But why? I guess it's like combing one's hair -- just a general desire for orderliness. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
Shorter DT: We are playing it backwards. The sources agree, the music agrees. You can see the differences, including the changed harmonies and changed position of the trill itself: http://voicesofmusic.org/trill.html Note that this is one example, there are a thousand ways to play this trill, but they mainly have this long appogiatura. I prefer the 2/3rds rule, but there are different ways to do Long Short, as long as it isn't Short Long. I look at this as a fantastic opportunity to be on the cutting edge, and the music sounds radically different when performed in this way. Skip the rest. It's dull. Long version: I only mention the Monteclair because it is so readily available, and explains the key points. I think that for most of the basic things, that is fine. It is translated into English, and so on. Experts will always prefer the primary sources--mainly the music itself. Most people will not want to read twenty books when they can look at one eight page document. Basically, when applying French ornamentation you are looking at the multiple sources for the theory, and then the multiple sources for the practice. For example, any ornamentation chart can be derived from the doubles The process is simple, you identify the interval, look in the double, paste it into the chart. The composers have left thousands of clear examples. If you don't want to use primary sources, you can rely on premixed recipes, such as the article in the Grove, In other words, the ornaments can be reverse engineered. The sources are easily reconciled. Brouderie is too big a topic to go into here. I don't think of it as colloquial, however. It is essential for playing lute music, and probably is related to earlier English and French styles. To say that the lute players differ from the mainstream is an interesting idea, but I look at it differently. Since most of the ornaments are written out in the doubles, using primary sources, one can see what the ornaments really are. We can then see if the music is different. And then you can say, well, there few examples of this kind of lute ornamnent in French music. The lute players were trying to be different. However, I don't see that. In fact, if you look at ornamentation charts they tend to be exhaustive--they cover almost all of the ways to get from note A to note B. Even the unmeasured preludes cover most of the ornamnents. But if you have looked at all the doubles, all the cadences, all the brouderie and say the lute ornaments are different, I would be very interested in the work. And then, we would know for sure--it would not be speculation. I've looked at thousands of these pieces--I'm always struck by the similarities. The real question revolves around the appogiatura: is everyone playing it backwards? Is it Sdrawkcab? And the answer is, yes. And here I cited Monteclair because most sources agree that the appogiatura is long--specifically 1/2 or 2/3 the note length. And in the performance of lute solos, lute players invariably perform these notes shorter than that--much shorter. In fact, 1/3 or less than the note length. And that is backwards, like a Scotch snap. Or a French snap, since they had it is well. I don't really care--I think people can play the solos however they want. If you have read all the primary sources, if you have looked at the doubles, cadences brouderie, and you say, you know, I just prefer to play it backwards, fine. Play it backwards. But I don't really think that is the case. I think this is simply a modern tradition and no one wants to change it--it is harder on the lute to play the appogiaturas longer, and you have to study the voice leading as well. It is slightly more work. Few people will do it; the best players will solve the technical problems--they always will. Here is a clear, parallel example: if you look at modern lute performance, the trills are most of the time played on the easy positions. Is that historical? Of course not. If I look back at all the ornamnentation classes over the last thirty years I cannot cite a single example of anyone who had read in may classes: Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period. (Paris: Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In French. See RILM 1987-00887-bs.Collection: Jean-Philippe Rameau and of the Monteclair--available in English--only two people in thirty years. And they read it in English, which is fine. And that is maybe 600-800 students on just that topic. So the info needs to be made easily accessible, and teachers of baroque lute need to at least tell their students about it even if they teach it differently. So I think it is, as far as the appogiatura--and that is only one point of many--we have recorded all the operas with the wrong ornaments and pronounciation-- we have it backwards. Since we now have youtube, you can see exactly how these notes are now being played, but you can hear them on the
[LUTE] Re: Fourier measurements of lute sound.
The width of the central peak ... increases as the interval decreases, but I could not come up with any simple mechanism that would shift the maximum of the curve noticeably. I verified this experimentally. In other words, determining frequencies with shorter time intervals in Fourier analysis is like reading a speedometer whose needle get wider -- you're OK if you use the middle of the needle as the hotspot. Maybe the following qualitative argument explains your observed shift to lower frequencies. Initially, all the vibrational energy is in the vibrating string. Then other parts of the lute start to vibrate too, which means that the the body of the lute drains energy out of the string, which provides an effective damping mechanism. If we can consider the vibrating string as a damped harmonic oscillator, it would indeed vibrate at a lower frequency than an undamped string. I find this plausible. We might even cast other harmonics within the same string as dampers (or even antidampers), since energy transfers between the harmonics due to string imperfections such as stiffness and finite stretchability. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
