[LUTE] Re: String Height
Dear Martin, It's not the 'ledge' which determines the height at which a string leaves the bridge but, as the laws of statics tells us, the height of the bridge hole in relation to the height of the front edge (many lutes had forward sloping bridge tops). In short, the string leaves the bridge at a position half way between the front top and the top of the bridge hole. In practice this is frequently close to the 'ledge' mid point but not always. The purpose of the recess in the front of the bridge is: decorative and to reduce mass (looking at the relatievely small width of bridge, a clear concern of makers. Martyn --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: String Height To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 8 February, 2009, 10:09 PM Dear Tom, You don't say what your current string heights are, and there are many causes of buzzes I would say the string height (from the surface of the fingerboard to the underside of the string) should be about 2.6-2.8mm for the first course and about 3.5-3.75mm for the 8th course. It depends to some extent on the string length (greater height for longer string lengths). The fingerboard should not be perfectly flat - it should have a slight camber (even on a renaissance lute, and much more pronounced on a baroque lute) and should be slightly concave from end to end (perhaps .5mm). The camber is important because the fret must be in close contact with the fingerboard, even as it approaches the edge - if the edge is too sharp (not well-rounded) it can cause the fret to be flattened in the region of the edge and/or not tight to the fingerboard surface, either of which can lead to problems. Frets are usually graded from first to eighth, thickest at the fret nearest the nut and becoming progressively thinner as you go up the neck towards the body of the lute. If the string height is really too low overall, then you can (as you suggest) add a slip of wood to the top of the bridge (it doesn't have to be glued on), underneath the strings, to increase the height of the bridge. The height of the string holes in the bridge makes little difference to the string height, since the front of the bridge should have a ledge which tends to fix the height roughly halfway between the top of the bridge and the bottom of the ledge. Best wishes, Martin Tom Draughon wrote: Question 1: For an 8 course Renaissance lute, what would be considered an appropriate string height range measured where the neck joins the body? I'm new to lute, and although my teacher says he's surprised that my budget EMS lute is really pretty good, I feel the string height might be a millimeter or two low. We have re-fretted the instrument with gut frets, but there are still a few often used areas of the fingerboard where I am experiencing fret buzz. Question 2: Is there a way to raise string height without completely replacing the bridge (i.e. adding material to the top of the bridge...)? Question 3: Were the string holes in the bridge always drilled parallel to the plane of the belly, or is it possible they were sometimes angled higher at the rose side and lower on the other? I'll look forward to your responses. Thanks, Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Paul O'Dette Interview with Bruce Duffie . . . . .
Sorry, this was meant to be a private email. Slip of the finger. Please disregard. Gary - Original Message - From: gary digman magg...@sonic.net To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 2:44 AM Subject: [LUTE] Paul O'Dette Interview with Bruce Duffie . . . . . Dear Rat; I don't now if you'll be able to access this with your computer problemas, But if you are, I thought you might find this interview with Paul O'dette interesting if only for what he has to say about the way Beethoven is performed. Love, G [1]http://www.bruceduffie.com/odette2.html -- References 1. http://www.bruceduffie.com/odette2.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1940 - Release Date: 2/8/2009 5:57 PM
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
Dan; Did you read the aforementioned interview with Paul O'dette. I don't think anyone has ever been satisfied with their results. I play St. Colombe, Marais, and, occasionally Forqueray on the bass viol as well as Dowland, Terzi et al on the renaissance lute and Weiss, Falckenhagen, various Gaultiers etc. on the baroque lute as well as Guerau, Sans, de Murcia, Corbetta, et al on baroque guitar as well as Villa-Lobos, Rodrigo, Britten et al on modern guitar and Miles, Wes, Jim Hall, Charlie Byrd etc. on jazz guitar as well as Oscar Pettiford and Charlie Parker on double bass. I play 3 or 4 jazz guitar or double bass gigs a month, 4 or 5 classical and early music concerts a year with some pretty accomplished musicians. While it's true if I narrowed my focus a little I might be a little more polished, but I'm having too much fun and wouldn't change my approach. I leave judgements about how successful I am at what I do to others. So much great music to play and so little time. Got to go practice. Gary - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net To: gary digman magg...@sonic.net Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 10:25 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dilettantism What's your definition of doing better? Easy. If I had locked up all my viel ton instruments for two or three years, had a day job with fewer hours, I would have gained complete technical control of the 13-course d-minor lute. ALL the chord shapes positions, cross-string scale passage fingerings and ornaments would be solidly in the muscle-memory bank; about a dozen Weiss suites would be publicly playable, not to mention Reusner, Bittner, and the French dudes- unmeasured preludes would no longer be an eternal mystery- you see where this is going. On the viol, I might have progressed to St. Colombe, Marais, Forqueray et al. A lot of this is individual choice, influenced by individual circumstances- such as time talent. I have only limited amounts of both, plus some non-musical obsessions that are part of a full plate in life. No regrets, however, just enough whining to feel good about it all. Dan -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1940 - Release Date: 2/8/2009 5:57 PM To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements
David's is the only one I have measured that works, but perhaps some of the other ones work. dt At 11:58 AM 2/8/2009, you wrote: Charles Browne wrote: There is a fret placement spreadsheet on the LSA website that will provide you with all the information without re-calculation. It will give fret positions for a number of temperaments/and string lengths it is worth looking at! Charles Thanks. Found it and punched in the string length. Even easier than multiplying by 43. But - so much choice. Any advice on a temperament for second half of fifteenth century? Stuart No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1939 - Release Date: 02/06/09 17:28:00 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
If all the pictures show us that the RH was at the bridge, then many of the pictures have gone missing. dt At 12:33 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote: From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de All instruction from the period tell us and the pictures show us that the right hand was at the bridge. How seriously should we take this? Barto Perhaps like with a traffic sign when driving a car? I mean, not religiously, of course B) Mathias An unexpectedly Gallic opinion! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism (approaches to music)
Dear Jerzy I am really just trying to make a synthesis of what other people have explained to me. I have been very lucky in being able to discuss over the net with Mimmo Peruffo , and to have a small inkling of his historic research methods into historic strings. Charles Besnainou, the French CNRS string researcher also kindly opened his laboratory to me. I have also found many lute makers very open to discussion, among them, Martin Shepherd, Malcolm Prior, Wolfgang Emmerich, Carlos Gonzales. I have to thank them for their willingness to answer my stumbling questions. I think lutenists, lute makers and string makers would benefit from much more close dialogue. However, I have done absolutely no personal research, other than my own string tweaks. I merely make my own personal interpretation of other people's findings. I would think that a lute handbook would call for a little more than that, but thanks for the idea; For the second point you make, my tendancy is to see how different schools, and indeed musicians have contributed in terms of their great musical sensitivity (Hoppy, for example), or in taking a historic hypothesis to its logical conclusion (Satoh and the low tension string hypothesis). The former possibly looking for a sort of universal musicality, almost beyond the lute, the latter perhaps exploring textures very much constrained by a particular lute and string type. Although, I agree, historical authenticity is not to be judged just in one area: string type, or RH position, and not in another: the grammar of rhetoric, for example. And of course authenticity does not guarantee musicality. I have to say that I have very much enjoyed Satoh's compositions for voice and lute, and I wonder whether his approach might not be grounded in a Japanese tradition of approach to music and art. Living in France, I am very aware that varying traditions can have a strong influence on the way we approach music and theatre. French theatre and even cinema, for example tends to be universalist, to the extent that local accents and social situations are frequently completely disregarded, while in the English (central European influenced) cinema these can be almost the main subject of the film (yes, I am sure there are many counter examples). Well, I am off subject, but perhaps living in between two cultures makes me less willing to close the doors to any serious approach to baroque music. Anthony Le 8 févr. 09 à 20:37, Jerzy Zak a écrit : Anthony, On 2009-02-08, at 19:16, Anthony Hind wrote: Indeed, there are signs that there were disagreements, between lutenists of past times. About the practice of using Bologna lutes... Some lutenists like Mace and Jacques Gautier, who seem to... The description by Mace of J. Gautier showing... We see that the king, and one of Jacques Gaultier's students bought these lutes, not Gaultier, himself, who... While in Burwell, in contrast, we see a scathing attack on Gautier's 12c lute. This makes me think that even then, there could be controversy between ancients and moderns... Fantastic!!! I'd love to have all this in a book format. I think you are certainly able and qualified to do it. Anthony, please, write a handbook for lutenists. As for now, I'm struggling today for a bit of time to practice, as beside of having a good master and a talent, by all means one need a motivation for a hard work. Another truism (to annoy Roman ;-)). Am I wrong or not but all appogiaturas I hear are sharp ''backwords'', not to say about other ''nuances''... I am afraid I have not quite understood this last remark, so I can not tell you whether you are mistaken or not. This was seemingly out of this topic, but you've included the exemple here so I couldn't resist a reaction. But I should rather extract it and put into the ''French trill''. To put it simple, evidently Satoh, a master for more then one generation of lute players, since some time in avant-guard of research on stringing, an icon of a ''new'' right hand approach to baroque technique, playes the basic French appogiatura (notated with a coma after a letter) in such a unorthodox way??? And I know, his students do the same. You may take it as a critic, as I wolud do 5 or 25 years ago. But it is a wider thing. You can find questionable elements in playing of several people, including ''stars'', but in such cases it is never discused -- to delicate? Or perhaps it desn't matter, like single strung instruments, hybrids, toy-theorboes, prevailing renesans tuning on archlutes in most baroque continuo performances. etc, etc. I think the EM movement once was a stroke of genius, but from the start it had a concealed virus (or more then one) -- an immanent conflict between historical evidence and common musical sens. Now it is to obvious and hundreds of HIP cases testify to this, every
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
Le 9 févr. 09 à 11:45, David Tayler a écrit : If all the pictures show us that the RH was at the bridge, then many of the pictures have gone missing. dt You must address that question to Robert Barto. But I think these are recorded interviews, I imagine RB does not mean they are only at the bridge, but that many are so. I like the idea that Extreme thumb-out (Mouton) is a sort of hitch- hikers position. Anthony At 12:33 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote: From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de All instruction from the period tell us and the pictures show us that the right hand was at the bridge. How seriously should we take this? Barto Perhaps like with a traffic sign when driving a car? I mean, not religiously, of course B) Mathias An unexpectedly Gallic opinion! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position
Whilst not disagreeing with the general thrust: that hand position generally moved back towards the bridge by the early 17thC (which also may, or may not, tell us omething about string tensions), could I ask you if the pictures were selected to make the point or did you choose them randomly? I think we need to be careful of self-selection. For example, a couple of depictions in Kinsky's ground breaking 'History of music in pictures' 1929 shows the hand quite low down towards the bridge and certainly not over the rose: 'The Lute player' engraving Brosamer 1537 (Kinsky p. 81); and, even earlier, 'Madonna enthroned' painting Montagna 1499 (Kinsky p.111) MH --- On Mon, 9/2/09, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 9 February, 2009, 10:56 AM May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with iconographical evidence about that very same point. You will find it there : for the renaissance : http://le.luth.free.fr/renaissance/index.html for the 17th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque/index.html for the 18th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque2/index.html I will let you choose your conclusion ;-)) Best, Jean-Marie === 09-02-2009 11:45:05 === If all the pictures show us that the RH was at the bridge, then many of the pictures have gone missing. dt At 12:33 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote: From: Mathias RD-sel mathias.roe...@t-online.de All instruction from the period tell us and the pictures show us that the right hand was at the bridge. How seriously should we take this? Barto Perhaps like with a traffic sign when driving a car? I mean, not religiously, of course B) Mathias An unexpectedly Gallic opinion! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 09-02-2009 NaNOTaCURa'D-YENaaCURNaCURaa+-a D-aa 1/4D--obA^2D-+aYENabavaaNiD--aD-0D-DEGD--oj a(c)faD-ayNA(c)D-DEGaYEN?aD-^iNaA.D-NOTauD-aaCURi --
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with iconographical http://le.luth.free.fr/ Nice pages, and not a lefty in sight! David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: J-Bar/fan-bar, was: Dilettantism
Le 8 févr. 09 à 20:39, Mathias Rösel a écrit : Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Thus J-barring=bass rider, and fan-barring=swan-necked lutes would be a tendency, but the two sets may not be identical. e.g. Wolfgang Emmerich who has made research on Railich, tells me that Railich's later productions did have fan-barring. Yet these are still rather early compared to Swannecked German lutes. As a lute amator that would be one area that interests me, the tonal colours that result from barring, wood choices, and lute shapes. I have communciated with a number of lute makers on that topic, who generally feel that it is difficult to make any exact predictions about whether a particular feature results in a specific sound trait. I regret that there is not more lute tastings, available, however, You can read with Robert Lundberg (http://www.luth.org/books/luteblrb.htm ) that J-bars served to brighten the sound of dull-sounding gut bass strings of renaissance lutes (the same goal as with octave strings) by breaking the fundamental. As opposed to that, fan barring allows fundamentals to sound unbroken which is what baroque lutes with their extended bass registers are supposed to feature. Playing a lute with a J-bar with overspun bass strings nullifies the effect of the bar, of course. Thank you Matthias, Yes , I do have that excellent and very informative book. I have not, however, had access to the Lundberg lectures on that topic, which I understand were very pertinent to our question. Wolfgang Emmerich gave me almost the same explanation, for J-barring versus fan-barring; however, he implied there could have been a musical taste issue beyond stringing. Generally the j-bars on Renaissancelutes were used to break the bass into its treble-parts to keep the leading role especially of the chantarelle - to have an optimal balance between treble and bass. With fan-barring the bass gets stronger and accordingly treble loses in relation towards a stronger bass. But in later baroque music it must have been more important to revel in chords. However, he also added: generally I would not overestimate the difference between the two barrings. On some models I tried both barrings achieving similar results - in the end I could compensate one disadvantage of one type of barring by other measures. But generally I would suggest a j-bar both for 10c and 11c lutes or both in one (for 10c music and 11c French Baroque music ). On the other hand -for example my first copy of the Raillich 1669 - was fantastic for the same purposes. What suited these kinds of music so well was the direct speaking and almost no echo. In this case also the fan-barring works. With this model I would recommend (against the rule! ) fan-barring. (The Lindberg Railich, also comes to mind in relation to the second part of Wolfgang's message). I think both explanations are compatible (musical motivation or string technology). Perhaps, fan-barring really took off when demi- filé began to be popular. However, I don't think that demi-filé are as bright as some full wirewounds. Although, Miguel claims that the sustain is greater than with Aquila type D Nylgut wirewounds. For the tonal difference, you can compare MP3 of loaded basses and Open-wound, here: 1) Loaded http://www.aquilacorde.com/loaded.mp3 2) Open wound http://www.aquilacorde.com/barocco.mp3 Do not consider that this is actually very close to the sound of these strings, but comparing the two, you do have some idea of a relative tonal difference (the lute in both cases, I believe is J- barred, however). I notice this is different from how Miguel Serdoura perceives the tonal difference between J-barring and Fan-barring Anthony -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
I like your comment very much. I might only add that if the sound
idea is ''before'' the instrument, then in between is the hand. So,
to put it a bit facetiously, if one has a 'heavy hand'', the tension
of strings, and therefore a hand position, is no problem... ;-))
There is of course no logic or science behind it, but quite human
observation.
J
___
On 2009-02-09, at 13:06, vance wood wrote:
Thank you for posting these images. I have never had a comment on
this subject before. What do I know? However; the Renaissance
images confirm what I have always done, and not because the
pictures say to do so but because the instrument sounds better if
played somewhere a bit South of the center of the Rose. I do not
play Baroque Lute but I understand the general consensus is to play
just North of the bridge, often with the little finger on or
behind the bridge. I think that the same result of it sounds
better is the reason. I think the probable reason is the tension
of the strings. I assume the strings on a Baroque Lute to be
lighter in tension and would buzz, rattle and become muddy in sound
if played closer to the Rose. Playing closer to the bridge adds
the effect of a higher tension to the strings. Just my conjecture
and means little---or maybe not, but I know of no one who has
pointed this out. The old proverb in discussions about who shot
John is always followed by the proverb follow the money. When it
comes to music I think the proverb should be, and probably is,
follow the sound.
VW
- Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier
jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:56 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand
position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with
iconographical evidence about that very same point. You will find
it there :
for the renaissance : http://le.luth.free.fr/renaissance/index.html
for the 17th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque/index.html
for the 18th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque2/index.html
I will let you choose your conclusion ;-))
Best,
Jean-Marie
=== 09-02-2009 11:45:05 ===
If all the pictures show us that the RH was at
the bridge, then many of the pictures have gone missing.
dt
At 12:33 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote:
From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de
All instruction from the period tell us and the pictures
show us that the right hand was at the bridge. How
seriously should we take this? Barto
Perhaps like with a traffic sign when driving a car? I mean, not
religiously, of course B)
Mathias
An unexpectedly Gallic opinion!
RT
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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09-02-2009
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[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
Goddamit ! David, you're right, which is a great achievement for a lefty ;-))) Jean-MArie === 09-02-2009 13:25:59 === On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with iconographical http://le.luth.free.fr/ Nice pages, and not a lefty in sight! David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 09-02-2009
[LUTE] Re: RH position
Dear Martyn, In fact I was annoyed by a lot af criticisms following Hopkinson Smith's recording of Dowland. People sort of looked down at it saying he played too close to the rose, which was not historically correct and that sort of things... Incidentally I have always had a great respect for Hoppy's work and having also worked with him occasionally, I know how committed he is to his musical and thechnical choices and how honest and intellectually deep his approach to music is. So I just wanted to use iconography to get a more precise idea of what the pictures revealed about hand position and that is how I first set these pages up. It is quite clear, through this choice (very limited I admit, but I could have selected hundreds of other pictures as well pointing in the same directions), that in the 16th century lute players tended to play closer to the rose than afterwards. Of course there could be some exceptions then as now and it does not mean the people who played closer to the bridge were wrong or bad, then as now. I agree with Jerzy in one of his posts when he comes to the conclusion that what matters most is the musical value of what players try to express. The rest is a essentially a matter of controversy and speculation, as Anthony pointed out, and, even though it may be intellectually satisfying, this is not absolutely indispensable for musical achievement, or is it ? To be HIP or nor to be, is that really the question ? ;-) Best wishes, Jean-Marie === 09-02-2009 13:02:36 === Whilst not disagreeing with the general thrust: that hand position generally moved back towards the bridge by the early 17thC (which also may, or may not, tell us omething about string tensions), could I ask you if the pictures were selected to make the point or did you choose them randomly? I think we need to be careful of self-selection. For example, a couple of depictions in Kinsky's ground breaking 'History of music in pictures' 1929 shows the hand quite low down towards the bridge and certainly not over the rose: 'The Lute player' engraving Brosamer 1537 (Kinsky p. 81); and, even earlier, 'Madonna enthroned' painting Montagna 1499 (Kinsky p.111) MH --- On Mon, 9/2/09, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 9 February, 2009, 10:56 AM May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with iconographical evidence about that very same point. You will find it there : for the renaissance : http://le.luth.free.fr/renaissance/index.html for the 17th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque/index.html for the 18th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque2/index.html I will let you choose your conclusion ;-)) Best, Jean-Marie === 09-02-2009 11:45:05 === If all the pictures show us that the RH was at the bridge, then many of the pictures have gone missing. dt At 12:33 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote: From: Mathias R?sel mathias.roe...@t-online.de All instruction from the period tell us and the pictures show us that the right hand was at the bridge. How seriously should we take this? Barto Perhaps like with a traffic sign when driving a car? I mean, not religiously, of course B) Mathias An unexpectedly Gallic opinion! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 09-02-2009 N---?+¦?-+v+-¦?++?b²?+=+b+v++?i??0??j-f+?ay?©?-?v?^i?+÷?+u?a-i --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 09-02-2009 N ¶è®ß¶¬+-±ç¥Ëbú+«b¢vÛiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?ë^iÙ¢ø§uìa¶i
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Diletantism
@ Jean Marie Nice collection of pics. I would have put the Le Sueur Reunion d'amis in the 17th century period though. Cheers! Lex van Sante To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Diletantism
Thank you Lex for your comment. I decided to place the Le Sueur in the renaissance because the man is playing a transitionnal 10 course lute... I think But you're right he might be in the 17th century as well ! Best, Jean-Marie === 09-02-2009 14:07:25 === @ Jean Marie Nice collection of pics. I would have put the Le Sueur Reunion d'amis in the 17th century period though. Cheers! Lex van Sante To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 09-02-2009
[LUTE] Pinging Dennis Franco
- Original Message - From: Dr. David C. Ehrenfeld drd...@kdental.com I stumbled across this wesite by Googling Dennis Franco. We played guitar in Tuscon in 1972. Lost track of him. If this is same guy in your society please have him contact me. Thanks David Ehrenfeld drd...@kdental.com 302 656 6343 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position (Hoppy)
Dear Jean-Marie Yes these are great pages Jean-Marie, and they were the first to interest me in this topic. I have always enjoyed Hoppy's musicality, and humble approach to his music, however, I was a little disappointed in the Dowland Dream recording, although I enjoyed his performance of it, in Paris, I think too much reverb is part of the problem, but also the wirewounds, in this particular recording, did seem to blur the other voices. I think there is nothing wrong with nuanced criticsm (and stated preferences), but rejecting a person's life-work, because of one aspect of their performance, when there are so many other facets is quite another. Thank you Anthony Le 9 févr. 09 à 14:00, Jean-Marie Poirier a écrit : Dear Martyn, In fact I was annoyed by a lot af criticisms following Hopkinson Smith's recording of Dowland. People sort of looked down at it saying he played too close to the rose, which was not historically correct and that sort of things... Incidentally I have always had a great respect for Hoppy's work and having also worked with him occasionally, I know how committed he is to his musical and thechnical choices and how honest and intellectually deep his approach to music is. So I just wanted to use iconography to get a more precise idea of what the pictures revealed about hand position and that is how I first set these pages up. It is quite clear, through this choice (very limited I admit, but I could have selected hundreds of other pictures as well pointing in the same directions), that in the 16th century lute players tended to play closer to the rose than afterwards. Of course there could be some exceptions then as now and it does not mean the people who played closer to the bridge were wrong or bad, then as now. I agree with Jerzy in one of his posts when he comes to the conclusion that what matters most is the musical value of what players try to express. The rest is a essentially a matter of controversy and speculation, as Anthony pointed out, and, even though it may be intellectually satisfying, this is not absolutely indispensable for musical achievement, or is it ? To be HIP or nor to be, is that really the question ? ;-) Best wishes, Jean-Marie === 09-02-2009 13:02:36 === Whilst not disagreeing with the general thrust: that hand position generally moved back towards the bridge by the early 17thC (which also may, or may not, tell us omething about string tensions), could I ask you if the pictures were selected to make the point or did you choose them randomly? I think we need to be careful of self-selection. For example, a couple of depictions in Kinsky's ground breaking 'History of music in pictures' 1929 shows the hand quite low down towards the bridge and certainly not over the rose: 'The Lute player' engraving Brosamer 1537 (Kinsky p. 81); and, even earlier, 'Madonna enthroned' painting Montagna 1499 (Kinsky p.111) MH --- On Mon, 9/2/09, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 9 February, 2009, 10:56 AM May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with iconographical evidence about that very same point. You will find it there : for the renaissance : http://le.luth.free.fr/renaissance/index.html for the 17th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque/index.html for the 18th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque2/index.html I will let you choose your conclusion ;-)) Best, Jean-Marie === 09-02-2009 11:45:05 === If all the pictures show us that the RH was at the bridge, then many of the pictures have gone missing. dt At 12:33 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote: From: Mathias R?sel mathias.roe...@t-online.de All instruction from the period tell us and the pictures show us that the right hand was at the bridge. How seriously should we take this? Barto Perhaps like with a traffic sign when driving a car? I mean, not religiously, of course B) Mathias An unexpectedly Gallic opinion! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 09-02-2009 N---?+¦?-+v+-¦?++?b²?+=+b+v++?i??0??j-f+?ay?©?-?v?^i?+÷?+u?a-i - -- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti- virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
[LUTE] Was RH, now Rose
When I look at these pictures, what strikes me is that in many of them the rose is closer to the bridge than what I see in modern lute replicas! Wayne May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with iconographical evidence about that very same point. You will find it there : for the renaissance : http://le.luth.free.fr/renaissance/index.html I will let you choose your conclusion ;-)) Best, Jean-Marie To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Grammy awards tonight
Le 8 fevr. 09 `a 17:07, Rob MacKillop a ecrit : I would add Ed Martin's 'Allemande' recording to their list. One of the best I've heard in a long time. Rob MacKillop Yes! I agree. The label needs to be a member of the Recording Academy in order to submit for nominattion. Unfortunately, since it is already released, it's too late now. Did McFarlane win? Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Carlo Cecconi
Don't know if you found reply. In case not, I don't; however, Cecconi's instruments are distributed by Marco Onorati via www.mandolinoitaliano.com. Marco might be able to point you in the right direction. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Doc Rossi [mailto:ro...@cetrapublishing.com] Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:28 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Carlo Cecconi Has anyone got Carlo Cecconi's telephone numbers? I can't find them... Thanks, Doc Rossi To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
On Feb 9, 2009, at 5:56 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with iconographical evidence about that very same point. You will find it there : for the renaissance : http://le.luth.free.fr/renaissance/index.html for the 17th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque/index.html for the 18th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque2/index.html It's fascinating to examine those images of past players, just as it is to watch players today, but let's not forget what that examination teach us: that each player's right hand, living or dead, is different to all the others. There must be a message in that somewhere... davidr dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
Jimi Hendrix, Albert Collins, Elizabeth Cotton- wait... ALL post-18th century! Nice pages, and not a lefty in sight! David -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Grammy awards tonight
No, Ronn and POD/Stubbs didn't win. On the opera side it's no shame to lose to Conlon and Patti Lupone, but King's Singers? Ugh... On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Tom Draughon [1]...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: Le 8 fevr. 09 `a 17:07, Rob MacKillop a ecrit : I would add Ed Martin's 'Allemande' recording to their list. One of the best I've heard in a long time. Rob MacKillop Yes! I agree. The label needs to be a member of the Recording Academy in order to submit for nominattion. Unfortunately, since it is already released, it's too late now. Did McFarlane win? Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music [2]http://www.heartistry.com 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:t...@heartistrymusic.com 2. http://www.heartistry.com/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
One observation- notice how many are singing to their own accompaniment? for the renaissance : http://le.luth.free.fr/renaissance/index.html for the 17th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque/index.html for the 18th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque2/index.html I will let you choose your conclusion ;-)) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net schrieb: If all the pictures show us that the RH was at the bridge, then many of the pictures have gone missing. That quote by Barto was bearing on the baroque lute, distinctively. I'm not aware of even one painting / engraving / whatever of baroque lute players, showing a different position. Mathias At 12:33 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote: From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de All instruction from the period tell us and the pictures show us that the right hand was at the bridge. How seriously should we take this? Barto Perhaps like with a traffic sign when driving a car? I mean, not religiously, of course B) Mathias An unexpectedly Gallic opinion! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
A wonderful collection of pictures and in the renaissance section there are quite a few really nice pictures of people using tables to hold and amplify their lutes. Nancy [1]http://le.luth.free.fr/ Nice pages, and not a lefty in sight! David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - [4]www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - [5]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- References 1. http://le.luth.free.fr/ 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/ 5. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
Help! I'm being Historically Informed! ...and I didn't want that to be in the lesson! While we're talking about different styles to learn in order to be a better all-around lutenist what are the chances of more than 1% of this readership adopting it? Sean On Feb 9, 2009, at 10:04 AM, Nancy Carlin wrote: A wonderful collection of pictures and in the renaissance section there are quite a few really nice pictures of people using tables to hold and amplify their lutes. Nancy [1]http://le.luth.free.fr/ Nice pages, and not a lefty in sight! David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - [4]www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - [5]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- References 1. http://le.luth.free.fr/ 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/ 5. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
Nice pages, and not a lefty in sight! David [Eugene C. Braig IV] ...Or potentially many lefties. You can't necessarily tell by the choice to place the neck of a stringed instrument in the left hand. I'm a lefty in spite of the strong evidence for my propensity to place a neck in my left hand portrayed in some relevant iconography. What does iconography reveal about left-handed keyboard players? I'm sure they were out there. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: guitar transform
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009, Brod Mac in_brod_we_tr...@hotmail.com said: hello i have an old nylon string guitar so, i am making it a 6 course. so i am going to cut the head off at the apropriate angle. and make a 12 string headstock. what angle are lute pegboxes on?. i want to make it on that angle primarily for looks. any comments on my idea? thanks The work on the neck is not hard, lute pegboxes are usualy mounted at a strong angle to the strings, something less than 90 degrees, maybe 85; not critical. You would cut a ledge under the end of the neck and glue a complete pegbox onto it. You say the guitar now has 6 strings, and you say you want to give it a 12-string pegbox. If you use the same string tension for twice as many stgrins you will have two problems; first, the bridge will be too narrow, second, if you use it anyway, the extra tension of doubled strings will tear it off the top. You will need to replace the bridge with one that has an appropriate surface area. Lutes made on historical principles employ lighter string tension than acoustical guitars. I dont know what your intension are in this matter, you can use heavier string tension if you like; but you need to consider what this change will do for the bridge. You also have a third issue. Neck width. Doubled courses need additional width between them for both the LH and so they dont buzz on each other. You could make a new wider neck, you could remove and replace the present fingerboard, saw the existing neck down its length and widen it with a contrasting wood (harder to match what is there, easier to do this artistically). You would then have to fit a new fingerboard and fret it (or use tied frets). Please note that if the existing neck it fitted into a dovetailed socket in the heel block you will need to inject steam with a needle to open the joint. I suspect it would be easier to make a new instrument than go thru all that unless you are experienced at this sort of thing, which it appears that you are not. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
I still contend there may have been a few to many left-handed lute players: perhaps as broadly represented as within the population at large, perhaps even more so. Nobody knows. Being right-handed and fretting with the left hand are not a perfect corollaries. It also is not mandatory for lefties to place the neck of a stringed instrument in their right hand. I don't, I never have, and I was never discouraged from expressing my inherent sinistral tendencies. I also don't dictate to my sinistral clan that my way (the standard way) is the only way. Make it work however you can. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: David Tayler [mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:18 PM To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism Obviously, because there were no lefty lute players. Except for Leonardo da Vinci. There are some nice lefty lute player images in the fabulous emblem collection that was posted here recently. dt At 04:25 AM 2/9/2009, you wrote: On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with iconographical http://le.luth.free.fr/ Nice pages, and not a lefty in sight! David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
I'm assuming the Vermeer doesn't count dt That quote by Barto was bearing on the baroque lute, distinctively. I'm not aware of even one painting / engraving / whatever of baroque lute players, showing a different position. Mathias At 12:33 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote: From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de All instruction from the period tell us and the pictures show us that the right hand was at the bridge. How seriously should we take this? Barto Perhaps like with a traffic sign when driving a car? I mean, not religiously, of course B) Mathias An unexpectedly Gallic opinion! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
The quid non sentit amor is the one I was thinking of http://emblems.let.uu.nl/c1627_facsimile.html?thumb=tekst254emblem=43 Lefty or reversi? 1627 or therabouts my Dutch is rusty. Use the ZOOM button at the bottom to see the OUD like plectrum. Ooops there is English too--not very helpful. dt I still contend there may have been a few to many left-handed lute players: perhaps as broadly represented as within the population at large, perhaps even more so. Nobody knows. Being right-handed and fretting with the left hand are not a perfect corollaries. It also is not mandatory for lefties to place the neck of a stringed instrument in their right hand. I don't, I never have, and I was never discouraged from expressing my inherent sinistral tendencies. I also don't dictate to my sinistral clan that my way (the standard way) is the only way. Make it work however you can. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: David Tayler [mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:18 PM To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism Obviously, because there were no lefty lute players. Except for Leonardo da Vinci. There are some nice lefty lute player images in the fabulous emblem collection that was posted here recently. dt At 04:25 AM 2/9/2009, you wrote: On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with iconographical http://le.luth.free.fr/ Nice pages, and not a lefty in sight! David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] NN's Continuo Book
Hi all, Does anyone know where one can obtain a copy of Nigel North's book on continuo? David R dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
Cool and thank you for the reference. As you allude, of course, a reversal of original art in the engraving process was common comfortably into the 19th c. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: David Tayler [mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:46 PM To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism The quid non sentit amor is the one I was thinking of http://emblems.let.uu.nl/c1627_facsimile.html?thumb=tekst254emblem=43 Lefty or reversi? 1627 or therabouts my Dutch is rusty. Use the ZOOM button at the bottom to see the OUD like plectrum. Ooops there is English too--not very helpful. dt I still contend there may have been a few to many left-handed lute players: perhaps as broadly represented as within the population at large, perhaps even more so. Nobody knows. Being right-handed and fretting with the left hand are not a perfect corollaries. It also is not mandatory for lefties to place the neck of a stringed instrument in their right hand. I don't, I never have, and I was never discouraged from expressing my inherent sinistral tendencies. I also don't dictate to my sinistral clan that my way (the standard way) is the only way. Make it work however you can. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: David Tayler [mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:18 PM To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism Obviously, because there were no lefty lute players. Except for Leonardo da Vinci. There are some nice lefty lute player images in the fabulous emblem collection that was posted here recently. dt At 04:25 AM 2/9/2009, you wrote: On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with iconographical http://le.luth.free.fr/ Nice pages, and not a lefty in sight! David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
What about this picture from 1601 (by Philippe Galle) : http://le.luth.free.fr/lefties.htm When in the same picture you can see an right-handed player and a left-handed one, I suppose it adds up to admitting that lefties did exist, even in a very small proportion, just like now. And I don't really buy the moral justification to the representation of a lefty player... Best, Jean-Marie, one rather happy lefty in the oppressed minority ;-))) === 09-02-2009 21:45:56 === The quid non sentit amor is the one I was thinking of http://emblems.let.uu.nl/c1627_facsimile.html?thumb=tekst254emblem=43 Lefty or reversi? 1627 or therabouts my Dutch is rusty. Use the ZOOM button at the bottom to see the OUD like plectrum. Ooops there is English too--not very helpful. dt I still contend there may have been a few to many left-handed lute players: perhaps as broadly represented as within the population at large, perhaps even more so. Nobody knows. Being right-handed and fretting with the left hand are not a perfect corollaries. It also is not mandatory for lefties to place the neck of a stringed instrument in their right hand. I don't, I never have, and I was never discouraged from expressing my inherent sinistral tendencies. I also don't dictate to my sinistral clan that my way (the standard way) is the only way. Make it work however you can. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: David Tayler [mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:18 PM To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism Obviously, because there were no lefty lute players. Except for Leonardo da Vinci. There are some nice lefty lute player images in the fabulous emblem collection that was posted here recently. dt At 04:25 AM 2/9/2009, you wrote: On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with iconographical http://le.luth.free.fr/ Nice pages, and not a lefty in sight! David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 09-02-2009
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
But if it's a flopped engraving we don't know which is the true lefty-- might as well go back to the museum and puzzle over the shovel What about this picture from 1601 (by Philippe Galle) : http://le.luth.free.fr/lefties.htm When in the same picture you can see an right-handed player and a left-handed one, I suppose it adds up to admitting that lefties did exist, even in a very small proportion, just like now. And I don't really buy the moral justification to the representation of a lefty player... Best, Jean-Marie, one rather happy lefty in the oppressed minority ;-))) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
On Feb 9, 2009, at 1:48 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: of course, a reversal of original art in the engraving process was common comfortably into the 19th c. And well into the 20th, and for all I know, the 21st. It's always been a rule of newpaper layout that people in pictures shouldn't look off the page, so at least in my college journalism days, it was common to flop pictures. Every so often, someone in the production process who doesn't know better will flop a picture that shouldn't be flopped, and thus mislead the reader into thinking traffic is going the wrong way or a violinist is bowing with his left hand. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
If it's any consolation, two of the three fantods appear to be left-handed. On Feb 9, 2009, at 2:14 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: But if it's a flopped engraving we don't know which is the true lefty-- might as well go back to the museum and puzzle over the shovel What about this picture from 1601 (by Philippe Galle) : http://le.luth.free.fr/lefties.htm When in the same picture you can see an right-handed player and a left-handed one, I suppose it adds up to admitting that lefties did exist, even in a very small proportion, just like now. And I don't really buy the moral justification to the representation of a lefty player... Best, Jean-Marie, one rather happy lefty in the oppressed minority ;-))) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
=== 09-02-2009 23:27:07 === On Feb 9, 2009, at 1:48 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Every so often, someone in the production process who doesn't know better will flop a picture that shouldn't be flopped, and thus mislead the reader into thinking traffic is going the wrong way or a violinist is bowing with his left hand. ..which I do when playing my tenor viol ! JM jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 09-02-2009 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: NN's Continuo Book
Indiana University Press sells a POD version. Not quite as nice as the original, but readable and reasonably priced (IIRC, around $60). -Original Message- From: David Rastall [mailto:dlu...@verizon.net] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:32 PM To: lute Net Subject: [LUTE] NN's Continuo Book Hi all, Does anyone know where one can obtain a copy of Nigel North's book on continuo? David R dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:27 PM, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Feb 9, 2009, at 1:48 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: of course, a reversal of original art in the engraving process was common comfortably into the 19th c. And well into the 20th, and for all I know, the 21st. It's always I had a calendar with musical paintings and pictures, one for every day of the year, showing a young and handsome Julian Bream holding his guitar the wrong way round. And in a little booklet on Ponce there's a left handed twin-brother of Segovia. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
Excellent ! Thanks ;-) JM === 09-02-2009 23:32:51 === They were both lefties! One of them simply chose to go with the easily available instrument builds when learning. Ha! Eugene -Original Message- From: Daniel Winheld [mailto:dwinh...@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:14 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism But if it's a flopped engraving we don't know which is the true lefty-- might as well go back to the museum and puzzle over the shovel What about this picture from 1601 (by Philippe Galle) : http://le.luth.free.fr/lefties.htm When in the same picture you can see an right-handed player and a left-handed one, I suppose it adds up to admitting that lefties did exist, even in a very small proportion, just like now. And I don't really buy the moral justification to the representation of a lefty player... Best, Jean-Marie, one rather happy lefty in the oppressed minority ;-))) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 09-02-2009
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
I'm assuming the Vermeer doesn't count dt Well, okay, you might as well count Santa Cecilia (Saraceni) or Gaultier (de Reyn). I haven't found out which Vermeer you might have in mind. But wouldn't you say it's clear as the sun that close-to-the-bridge was the home position with baroque lutes? Mathias That quote by Barto was bearing on the baroque lute, distinctively. I'm not aware of even one painting / engraving / whatever of baroque lute players, showing a different position. Mathias At 12:33 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote: From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de All instruction from the period tell us and the pictures show us that the right hand was at the bridge. How seriously should we take this? Barto Perhaps like with a traffic sign when driving a car? I mean, not religiously, of course B) Mathias An unexpectedly Gallic opinion! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: NN's Continuo Book
David, It is available in the USA, through Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooksfield-keywords=nigel+northx=0y=0 ed At 04:32 PM 2/9/2009 -0500, David Rastall wrote: Hi all, Does anyone know where one can obtain a copy of Nigel North's book on continuo? David R dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1941 - Release Date: 02/05/09 11:34:00 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
Touché, my sinister- I mean, sinistral colleague! Maladroits to the right, please. They were both lefties! One of them simply chose to go with the easily available instrument builds when learning. Ha! Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
and, apparently that Bill-the-Kid was left-handed. JM __ From: howard posner [mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com] Sent: Mon 2/9/2009 5:27 PM To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism On Feb 9, 2009, at 1:48 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: of course, a reversal of original art in the engraving process was common comfortably into the 19th c. And well into the 20th, and for all I know, the 21st. It's always been a rule of newpaper layout that people in pictures shouldn't look off the page, so at least in my college journalism days, it was common to flop pictures. Every so often, someone in the production process who doesn't know better will flop a picture that shouldn't be flopped, and thus mislead the reader into thinking traffic is going the wrong way or a violinist is bowing with his left hand. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
and, apparently that Bill-the-Kid was left-handed. ...But he got flopped performing a duet with Pat Garret. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
I don't kniow what you mean by later-- the moral implications were added at least as early as the Roman Empire. It has to do with Augury. The augurs, interestingly enough, formed a collegium. dt At 02:31 PM 2/9/2009, you wrote: No stance on morality was intended to be implied. Sinistral literally means left handed/oriented. The moral implications were added later. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:07 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism What about this picture from 1601 (by Philippe Galle) : http://le.luth.free.fr/lefties.htm When in the same picture you can see an right-handed player and a left- handed one, I suppose it adds up to admitting that lefties did exist, even in a very small proportion, just like now. And I don't really buy the moral justification to the representation of a lefty player... Best, Jean-Marie, one rather happy lefty in the oppressed minority ;-))) === 09-02-2009 21:45:56 === The quid non sentit amor is the one I was thinking of http://emblems.let.uu.nl/c1627_facsimile.html?thumb=tekst254emblem=43 Lefty or reversi? 1627 or therabouts my Dutch is rusty. Use the ZOOM button at the bottom to see the OUD like plectrum. Ooops there is English too--not very helpful. dt I still contend there may have been a few to many left-handed lute players: perhaps as broadly represented as within the population at large, perhaps even more so. Nobody knows. Being right-handed and fretting with the left hand are not a perfect corollaries. It also is not mandatory for lefties to place the neck of a stringed instrument in their right hand. I don't, I never have, and I was never discouraged from expressing my inherent sinistral tendencies. I also don't dictate to my sinistral clan that my way (the standard way) is the only way. Make it work however you can. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: David Tayler [mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:18 PM To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism Obviously, because there were no lefty lute players. Except for Leonardo da Vinci. There are some nice lefty lute player images in the fabulous emblem collection that was posted here recently. dt At 04:25 AM 2/9/2009, you wrote: On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with iconographical http://le.luth.free.fr/ Nice pages, and not a lefty in sight! David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - -- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 09-02-2009
