[LUTE] Re: Capo use on early instruments
Hello All, and thanks for this discussion. I have an 8 course Renaissance lute which I recently used to play and record a piece a whole step higher. Instead of arduously fingered transposing, I strapped a nickel-silver section of a candle holder across the fingerboard at the 2nd fret with thick hair ties. This is no joke - it worked quite well. While it probably would have been better to acquire an instrument designed to be pitched higher, I don't have that kind of expendable income, so I improvised. A 1/4 x 5 or 6 machine screw with a solid shaft would probably work just as well. All the best, Tom From: Dan Winheld Subject:[LUTE] Re: Capo use on early instruments Another good point- the only lute for which I built my own capo (pain in the butt piece of fussy work) was a 72 cm SL "Division" bass lute that worked very well as an "E" lute (a-415 or 440) with a generous 10 fret neck, and narrow-ish sloping shoulders at the neck-body joint. But, in order to work, required equal tempered frets. Great instrument for accompaniment as well as a substantial amount of solo work. But a 58 - 62 cm SL, 8-fret neck tenor lute with meantone fretting? forget the damn capo! Dan On 9/25/2013 4:13 PM, R. Mattes wrote: >> He makes the point that they did it in this way because the vihuela >> >had only 10 frets and a capo on the fingerboard would have reduced >> >this to 9. > and lutes only had 7 or 8 frets ... > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists_tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] intavolations 45
Hi, there are new Lute Intavolations on IMSLP! http://lute-ensemble-tabulatures.npage.de/ There are, how promised, new FRONIMO layout versions! ===It is recommended to use these new versions!!!== ---2 Sopranos and 2 g-Lutes new fronimo layout: Vecchi, Orazio Or ch'ogni vento tace 2 Sopranos & 2 Lutes http://imslp.org/wiki/Or_ch'ogni_vento_tace_(Vecchi,_Orazio)#IMSLP279228 Vecchi, Orazio Gitene NinfeSopran, Alt & 2 Lutes http://imslp.org/wiki/Gitene_Ninfe_(Vecchi,_Orazio)#IMSLP281456 Vecchi, Orazio Al bel de tuoi capelli 2 Sopranos & 2 Lutes http://imslp.org/wiki/Al_bel_de_tuoi_capelli_(Vecchi,_Orazio)#IMSLP279300 Massaino, Tiburzio Mentre vaga Angioletta (prima parte)2 Sopranos & 2 Lutes http://imslp.org/wiki/Mentre_vaga_Angioletta_(prima_parte)_(Massaino,_Tiburtio)#IMSLP281417 Massaino, Tiburzio Tempra d'arguto suon (seconda parte)2 Sopranos & 2 Lutes http://imslp.org/wiki/Tempra_d'arguto_suon_(seconda_parte)_(Massaino,_Tiburtio)#IMSLP281334 Perini, AnnibaleCantate Domino 2 Sopranos, Tenor & 2 Lutes http://imslp.org/wiki/Cantate_Domino_(Perini,_Annibale)#IMSLP278999 Ferretti, Giovanni 18. Mettetevi in battaglia Sopran, Alt & 2 Lutes http://imslp.org/wiki/Mettetevi_in_battaglia_(Ferretti,_Giovanni)#IMSLP282979 Buel, Christoph Expurgate vetus fermentus 2 Sopranos & 2 Lutes http://imslp.org/wiki/Expurgate_vetus_fermentus_(Buel,_Christoph)#IMSLP279432 Wert, Giaches dePoi che con gl'occhi (Seconda parte)Sopran, Alt & 2 Lutes http://imslp.org/wiki/Poi_che_con_gl'occhi_(Secondo_Parte)_(Wert,_Giaches_de)#IMSLP283129 New! Canale, FlorianoQuem vidistis pastores 2 Sopranos, Alt & 2 Lutes http://imslp.org/wiki/Quem_vidistis_pastores_(Canale,_Floriano) ---2 Sopranos and g-Lute New! Merulo, Claudio Haec est dies 2 Sopranos & Lute http://imslp.org/wiki/Haec_est_dies_(Merulo,_Claudio) Merulo, Claudio O crux benedicta2 Sopranos & Lute http://imslp.org/wiki/O_crux_benedicta_(Merulo,_Claudio)#IMSLP298833 Monte, Philippe de Inclina cor meumSopran, Alt & Lute http://imslp.org/wiki/Inclina_cor_meum_(Monte,_Philippe_de) Good luck. Anton -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re;: help on tuning
Tom - I have a very similar set-up, and I can assure you that for long-distance, non-hands on stringing help Chris Hendriksen is the best; (I have used him for decades) but in the end each individual has to make the final tweaks & adjustments that work- and they may be a little off from any abstractly conceived parameters, however well-informed. Here is what I ended up with: (made final adjustment just yesterday, swapping out pure heavenly all-gut for practical concert performance strings that carry farther & don't have a "drinking problem" when it comes to humidity.) Daniel Larson 8-course "Frei" model tenor lute, 63.7 cm SL, nominal "G", a=415 g-1 .47 Savarez nylon d-2 .52 NNG a-3 .64 NNG f-4 .79 NNG c-5 .95 KFG (unison) g-6 .70 gut octave G-6 1.30 KFG fundamental f-7 .77 gut octave F-7 1.36 KFG fundamental d-8 .92 gut octave D-8 1.68 KFG fundamental I find - just by feel, as I have no tension chart that directly targets the KFGs- that my unison 5th course is a tad stiff, but is well in the tension ballpark and sounds fine. The next smaller diameter is the ultra slimy-shiny KF string which I don't like on this lute. My repertoire for this instrument precludes an 8ve string, and I do not like the NNG at the 5th course in Renaissance tuning. Fine for open D-5th course on Baroque lute, however. My 6-G fundamental is a touch stiff as well, ideally would be about 1.25- but transitions well to the 7th course on down; and matches the very strong resonant response of that 7th course F. Another thing, these strings actually have to break in a little, could take a week or even longer to finally stabilize, and you have to learn the nuances of touch that bring out the best in them- then sometimes more tweaking & swapping out for slightly different tension/intonation levels & responses. Best of luck to you- Dan On 10/10/2013 1:40 AM, Tom wrote: Thanks for the suggestions. Here is the info David asked me to include: The strings are about a week old NNG52 - 8 course lute 5th octave c' NNG100 - 8 course lute 5th c NNG68 - 8 course lute 6th octave g KFG121 - 8 course lute 6th G NNG76 - 8 course lute 7th octave f KFG132 - 8 course lute 7th F NNG88 - 8 course lute 8th octave d KFG160 - 8 course lute 8th D As you can see, the srings are either New Nylgut and KFG -- Sincerely, Tom -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help on tuning
David, I forgot to mention the lute is 63 cm. Thanks for your suggestions. I have had Chris at [1]catlines.com help calculate the tensions, but as I've only had a lute for 3 months, the tension is a bit of a mystery at this time. -- Sincerely, Tom -- References 1. http://catlines.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Juxtaposition
Thank you for posting these. I enjoyed listening to both of them. I am not sure that there is any point in people saying which they prefer because personal tastes differ today and probably did in the 17th century. De gustibus non disputandum. I will venture to say that the passage work and the descending bass line seemed clearer with the re-entrant tuning and that the low bass strings in the other version sounded muddy and muffled. Foscarini looked puzzled by both of them. But that may well be due to the recording - not to mention my equipment. All the best Monica - Original Message - From: "dominic robillard" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 10:26 PM Subject: [LUTE] Juxtaposition Hello Luters, Thanks for being so informative on a daily basis. Here is what Marionas sounds like in reentrant and non-reentrant from Sanz. Same tuning, same temperament, same fingering, all strung out on gut. My extended version. Reentrant [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_uTHGiNQ10&featureAe-overview&list=U Utc7YBbamzi74FMleVtceaA Basses [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y78QfsZcgvA&list=UUtc7YBbamzi74FMleVt ceaA Dominic -- References Visible links 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_uTHGiNQ10&feature%C3%84-overview&list=UUtc7YBbamzi74FMleVtceaA 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y78QfsZcgvA&list=UUtc7YBbamzi74FMleVtceaA Hidden links: 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y78QfsZcgvA&list=UUtc7YBbamzi74FMleVtceaA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re;: help on tuning
Tom An earlier poster already suggested your octaves might be higher in tension than your fundamentals. This was a good guess. Course 5 you have 28N (2.8kg if you prefer) for your octav and 25N for your fundamental. Courses 6 to 8 are around 25N for the octaves and around 20N for the fundamentals. All this assuming you have it tuned to 440Hz. Each to his own, but for a 60cm 8-course I would suggest around 28N for the basses and around 25/26N for the octaves. On an 8-coourse with metalwound basses I would not use an octave string on course 5 and probably not on 6 either. But again, each to his own and opinions differ. David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 10 October 2013 10:40, Tom <[3]tgw...@gmail.com> wrote: Thanks for the suggestions. Here is the info David asked me to include: The strings are about a week old NNG52 - 8 course lute 5th octave c' NNG100 - 8 course lute 5th c NNG68 - 8 course lute 6th octave g KFG121 - 8 course lute 6th G NNG76 - 8 course lute 7th octave f KFG132 - 8 course lute 7th F NNG88 - 8 course lute 8th octave d KFG160 - 8 course lute 8th D As you can see, the srings are either New Nylgut and KFG -- Sincerely, Tom -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:tgw...@gmail.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re;: help on tuning
Thanks for the suggestions. Here is the info David asked me to include: The strings are about a week old NNG52 - 8 course lute 5th octave c' NNG100 - 8 course lute 5th c NNG68 - 8 course lute 6th octave g KFG121 - 8 course lute 6th G NNG76 - 8 course lute 7th octave f KFG132 - 8 course lute 7th F NNG88 - 8 course lute 8th octave d KFG160 - 8 course lute 8th D As you can see, the srings are either New Nylgut and KFG -- Sincerely, Tom -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help on tuning
Hi Tom Sounds like it could be a problem with the grooves in the nut. If the octave string is set too high relative to the fundamental, it will need that much extra tension to be pressed down onto the fret, with the obvious tuning discrepancy that you describe. It is complicated because of the different in thickness (and stiffness) between the two strings. If I were you, I would try inserting a very thin layer of card or plastic under the fundamental, at the nut groove, and see if it improves the tuning of your fretted octaves (in this case by raising the fundamental. Forget the fact that the frets are now slightly out of position). If so, the next step would be to consider whether the groove for the octave string can be made deeper without bringing the string too close to the frets. Good luck John On 10 October 2013 07:44, Tom <[1]tgw...@gmail.com> wrote: I posted this to the lutening group but thought it wouldn't hurt to try here, also. Hello everyone, I have what is probably a newbie question. I am unable to tune the 5th, 6th, and to a lesser degree the 7th and 8th courses to my satisfaction. When tuned so that the octaves have no beats between the two strings, the strings are out of tune when fretted. The octave course is invariably sharp, or at least sharp enough to drive me batty (although there are those who would argue that it's a drive...more like a putt). My ears are pretty good to within 5 cents of a tone. I've tried lowering the fundamental by a few cents, but it doesn't seem to help until the the two strings of a course are out of tune when open. Help!!! (please) -- Sincerely, Tom -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:tgw...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help on tuning
Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android __ From: William Samson ; To: Tom ; Subject: Re: [LUTE] help on tuning Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 6:53:37 AM It sounds like your octaves are at a lower tension than their partners. Try replacing them with strings at the same tension and see if that helps. Good luck! Bill Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android __ From: Tom ; To: ; Subject: [LUTE] help on tuning Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 6:44:16 AM I posted this to the lutening group but thought it wouldn't hurt to try here, also. Hello everyone, I have what is probably a newbie question. I am unable to tune the 5th, 6th, and to a lesser degree the 7th and 8th courses to my satisfaction. When tuned so that the octaves have no beats between the two strings, the strings are out of tune when fretted. The octave course is invariably sharp, or at least sharp enough to drive me batty (although there are those who would argue that it's a drive...more like a putt). My ears are pretty good to within 5 cents of a tone. I've tried lowering the fundamental by a few cents, but it doesn't seem to help until the the two strings of a course are out of tune when open. Help!!! (please) -- Sincerely, Tom -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: help on tuning
Tom
First a return question: what is you string material, brand, diameters
('numbers' for some brands)/tenison and last but certainly not least,
age? All these factors play a role. If strings are old, replace and
you'll feel better. If strings are gut, you might have a tough time
adjusting. If strings are metalwounds and plastics (nylon or
otherwise), ditch the octaves on courses 5 and 6 and you'll be fine.
David
***
David van Ooijen
[1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***
On 10 October 2013 08:44, Tom <[3]tgw...@gmail.com> wrote:
I posted this to the lutening group but thought it wouldn't hurt
to try
here, also.
Hello everyone,
I have what is probably a newbie question. I am unable to tune
the 5th,
6th, and to a lesser degree the 7th and 8th courses to my
satisfaction.
When tuned so that the octaves have no beats between the two
strings,
the strings are out of tune when fretted. The octave course is
invariably sharp, or at least sharp enough to drive me batty
(although
there are those who would argue that it's a drive...more like a
putt).
My ears are pretty good to within 5 cents of a tone.
I've tried lowering the fundamental by a few cents, but it
doesn't seem
to help until the the two strings of a course are out of tune
when
open.
Help!!! (please)
--
Sincerely,
Tom
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
[4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
3. mailto:tgw...@gmail.com
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
