[BAROQUE-LUTE] Twelve Course Lutes
Dear All, Does anybody on this list have any experience with 12c lutes? I am considering getting one if I can get the funds together and I would be grateful for any counsel drawn from actual experience. I have never even laid finger to fret on one of these lutes before, so it is a bit of a leap of faith. That said, there is clearly so much music that could be played in either vieux ton or nouveau ton on this lute, and I think it is the ultimate historical continuo beast for so much 17c repertoire, in particular English music (Purcell, Lawes, etc.) Also: string lengths. I know they can be very small (around 55cm) to very big (perhaps 76cm or so). Any suggestions? I am kind of torn between having perhaps a smaller solo instrument and a larger one that I could use for accompaniment. Any thoughts? Best wishes, Benjamin -- [1]www.luthiste.com t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 -- References 1. http://www.luthiste.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Video of Archlute by Koch
Nom de l'oeuvre Archiluth Numero d'inventaire E.546 Numero Chouquet 1884 C.233 Collection Musee de la musique Facteur ou Auteur [1]Koch Christoph Lieu de creation VENISE Date d'execution 1654 Historique Collection Julien Fau Description Caisse `a 15 cotes de bois de violette (Dalbergia caerensis) separees de filets d'ivoire * Brague en 2 parties avec un filet d'ivoire * Fac-simile de la table pose en 1995 * Table originale separee en bois resineux en 2 les * Chevalet en hetre avec un dessus de marqueterie * Rose representant un aigle bicephale stylise * Manche en tilleul avec placage au dos d'un fond de bois de violette * Touche en ebene decoree de 3 cartouches d'ivoire de forme ellipsoide graves de scenes pastorales * Double cheviller en tilleul plaque sur ses quatre faces de bois de violette * Marques et inscriptions Etiquette manuscrite collee au fond de la caisse : ''Christoforo Cochs all insegna / Dall'Aquila d'Oro in Venetia / 1654'' * Inscription gravee dans un medaillon d'ivoire sur la crosse du chevillier : ''Cristofero / Cocko fecit / in Vinetia'' Decor Face du cheviller incrustes de 11 medaillons d'ivoire comportant des decors graves (scenes pastorales, paysages...) * Dos decore d'une marqueterie d'ivoire `a d''ecor de rinceaux et entrelacs * Manche decore d'une marqueterie d'ivoire aux motifs de rinceaux Longueur totale 1713 mm Longueur vibrante petit jeu : 1x1,5x2 = c.618 mm Longueur vibrante 2 grand jeu : 8x1 = c.1429 mm Oeuvre exposee Non Mode d'acquisition Achat Date d'acquisition 12/1873 Photographie(s) * [2]Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, vue de 3/4 face / Jean-Marc Angles [3]Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, vue de face / Jean-Marc Angles [4]Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, vue de dos / Jean-Marc Angles [5]Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, vue de profil / Jean-Marc Angles [6]Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, table d'origine, vue de face / Jean-Marc Angles [7]Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, table d'origine, vue de l'interieur / Jean-Marc Angles [8]Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, detail rose table d'origine / Jean-Marc Angles [9]Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, detail caisse, vue de profil / Jean-Marc Angles [10]Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, fond de caisse / Jean-Marc Angles [11]Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, vue de 3/4 dos / Jean-Marc Angles Livre(s) [12]Matiere et musique / ed. by Claire Chevallier, Jos van Immerseel [13]Violin and lute makers of Venice / Stefano Pio [14]Splendore a Venezia / Sous la direction de Hilliard T. Goldfarb [15]Catalogue des collections du Musee de la musique / sous la dir. scientifique de Joel Dugot [16]Bayern Italien / Rainhard Riepertinger, Evamaria Brockhoff, Ludwig Eiber, Michael Nadler, Shahab Sangestan, Ralf Skoruppa Document(s) sonore(s) [17]Corente, la sua spezzata / Bernardo Gianoncelli [18]11 pieces pour luth solo / John Dowland, composition [19]4 pieces pour luth solo / John Playford, composition [20]Here comes the sun / George Harrison, composition Dossier(s) en ligne [21]Les incontournables du musee : Archiluth de Christoph Koch Article(s) [22]Description des luths de la collection du musee du C.N.S.M.II / Joel Dugot [23]Les luths du Musee instrumental du CNSM / Joel Dugot Video(s) [24]La restauration des instruments de musique [25]Archiluth, Christoph Koch, Venise, 1654 Plan(s) [26]Archiluth, Christoph Koch, Venise, 1654, Paris, France, Musee de la Musique NDEG inv. E 546 / Joel Dugot Note(s) Photo. restauration neg.991.24.1, neg.991.30.1, neg.991.33.2 * Photo. de travail nDEG9244-9246, nDEG111 374-111 385, nDEG103 936-103 944, nDEG104 338-104 342, nDEG104 393-104 394, nDEG105 103-105 105, nDEG105 150-105 151, nDEG105 252-105 254, nDEG105 259-105 261, nDEG108 928-108 930, nDEG111 372-111 385, nDEG119 438-119 441, N129 470-129 483 0161217 -- References Visible links 1. http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID28352 2. http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID50780EIDSIM=CMIM19496 3. http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID50759EIDSIM=CMIM19475 4. http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID50760EIDSIM=CMIM19476 5. http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID50761EIDSIM=CMIM19477 6. http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID50762EIDSIM=CMIM19478
[LUTE] Re: Video of Archlute by Koch
Magnificent instrument and impressive playing, thank you Benjamin for posting this! I hadn't seen it. Regards Anthony On 16 mai 2014, at 22:39, BENJAMIN NARVEY luthi...@gmail.com wrote: http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/masc/?INSTANCE=CITEMUSIQUEURL=/M ediaComposite/CMFM/CMFM04800/default.htm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Video of Archlute by Koch
--001a11c1e0786e649604f997b9c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting, the petit jeu is pretty short in comparisson with the grand jeu. Would this kind of instrument have enough power in an ensemble situation? Is it desirable to have such a gap between both the stopped and unstopped strings? Thanks. 2014-05-17 5:20 GMT-03:00 Bernd Haegemann b...@symbol4.de: Nom de l'oeuvre ArchiluthNuméro d'inventaire E.546Numéro Chouquet 1884 C.233Collection Musée de la musiqueFacteur ou Auteur Koch Christophhttp://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0128352 Lieu de création VENISEDate d'exécution 1654Historique Collection Julien FauDescription Caisse à 15 côtes de bois de violette (Dalbergia caerensis) séparées de filets d'ivoire * Brague en 2 parties avec un filet d'ivoire * Fac-similé de la table posé en 1995 * Table originale séparée en bois résineux en 2 lés * Chevalet en hêtre avec un dessus de marqueterie * Rose représentant un aigle bicéphale stylisé * Manche en tilleul avec placage au dos d'un fond de bois de violette * Touche en ébène décorée de 3 cartouches d'ivoire de forme ellipsoïde gravés de scènes pastorales * Double cheviller en tilleul plaqué sur ses quatre faces de bois de violette *Marques et inscriptions Etiquette manuscrite collée au fond de la caisse : â³Christoforo Cochs all insegna / Dall'Aquila d'Oro in Venetia / 1654â³ * Inscription gravée dans un médaillon d'ivoire sur la crosse du chevillier : â³Cristofero / Cocko fecit / in Vinetiaâ³Décor Face du cheviller incrustés de 11 médaillons d'ivoire comportant des décors gravés (scènes pastorales, paysages...) * Dos décoré d'une marqueterie d'ivoire à dâ³Ã©cor de rinceaux et entrelacs * Manche décoré d'une marqueterie d'ivoire aux motifs de rinceaux Longueur totale 1713 mmLongueur vibrante petit jeu : 1x1,5x2 = c.618 mmLongueur vibrante 2 grand jeu : 8x1 = c.1429 mmOeuvre exposée NonMode d'acquisition AchatDate d'acquisition 12/1873 Photographie(s) *http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250780EIDSIM=CMIM19496 Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, vue de 3/4 face / Jean-Marc Anglèshttp://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250780EIDSIM=CMIM19496 http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250759EIDSIM=CMIM19475 Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, vue de face / Jean-Marc Anglèshttp://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250759EIDSIM=CMIM19475 http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250760EIDSIM=CMIM19476 Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, vue de dos / Jean-Marc Anglèshttp://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250760EIDSIM=CMIM19476 http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250761EIDSIM=CMIM19477 Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, vue de profil / Jean-Marc Anglèshttp://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250761EIDSIM=CMIM19477 http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250762EIDSIM=CMIM19478 Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, table d'origine, vue de face / Jean-Marc Anglèshttp://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250762EIDSIM=CMIM19478 http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250763EIDSIM=CMIM19479 Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, table d'origine, vue de l'intérieur / Jean-Marc Anglèshttp://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250763EIDSIM=CMIM19479 http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250764EIDSIM=CMIM19480 Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, détail rose table d'origine / Jean-Marc Anglèshttp://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250764EIDSIM=CMIM19480 http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250765EIDSIM=CMIM19481 Archiluth, Koch (Christoph), Venise, 1654, E.546, détail caisse, vue de profil / Jean-Marc Anglèshttp://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0250765EIDSIM=CMIM19481
[LUTE] Saturday morning quote - Substance
The first post of our fourth year of Saturday quotes is now available [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-11w Ron Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-11w To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] 12 Course Lutes
Dear All, Does anybody on this list have any experience with 12c lutes? I am considering getting one if I can get the funds together and I would be grateful for any counsel drawn from actual experience. I have never even laid finger to fret on one of these lutes before, so it is a bit of a leap of faith. That said, there is clearly so much music that could be played in either vieux ton or nouveau ton on this lute, and I think it is the ultimate historical continuo beast for so much 17c repertoire, in particular English music (Purcell, Lawes, etc.) Also: string lengths. I know they can be very small (around 55cm) to very big (perhaps 76cm or so). Any suggestions? I am kind of torn between having perhaps a smaller solo instrument and a larger one that I could use for accompaniment. Any thoughts? Best wishes, Benjamin -- [1]www.luthiste.com t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 -- References 1. http://www.luthiste.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 12 Course Lutes
I used to have one. There is a lot of repertoire for it, though arguably none of it 'big' repertoire. There is a little bit in the Wemyss ms, Panmure 4, and there is a large number of German pieces - Reusner, for example: the printed pieces in his books are for eleven courses, but the hand-written extras include a twelfth course. Many German mss (including Weiss) have music which uses just twelve courses, enough to make me wonder if there was in Germany a 12c instrument in currency. As for continuo, the instrument is closer to an 11c, but suitable for smaller ensembles. If you are serious about continuo playing of English songs, then perhaps an English theorbo would be better suited. I often felt one more course would give me the great 13c repertoire, while one fewer would be more apt for the French repertoire. It's a bit of an in-betweenie, so to speak. One word of warning, that extended peghead can be a nightmare when putting new strings on...I shed a few tears! Rob www.robmackillop.net On 17 May 2014, at 18:08, BENJAMIN NARVEY luthi...@gmail.com wrote: Dear All, Does anybody on this list have any experience with 12c lutes? I am considering getting one if I can get the funds together and I would be grateful for any counsel drawn from actual experience. I have never even laid finger to fret on one of these lutes before, so it is a bit of a leap of faith. That said, there is clearly so much music that could be played in either vieux ton or nouveau ton on this lute, and I think it is the ultimate historical continuo beast for so much 17c repertoire, in particular English music (Purcell, Lawes, etc.) Also: string lengths. I know they can be very small (around 55cm) to very big (perhaps 76cm or so). Any suggestions? I am kind of torn between having perhaps a smaller solo instrument and a larger one that I could use for accompaniment. Any thoughts? Best wishes, Benjamin -- [1]www.luthiste.com t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 -- References 1. http://www.luthiste.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 12 Course Lutes
Rob, On Sat, 5/17/14, Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: Many German mss (including Weiss) have music which uses just twelve courses, enough to make me wonder if there was in Germany a 12c instrument in currency. Baron is pictured with a 12-course lute and I believe the majority of his music calls for 12 courses. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 12 Course Lutes
Well, there we go :-) I'd forgotten about the Baron. Thanks, Chris. No need to think of the instrument as an almost 13c or overgrown 11c. If Baron had one, is it out of the realms of possibility that Weiss had one? The London manuscript (if I remember correctly) has a number of sonatas requiring only 12 courses. Lots of interesting repertoire there. Rob www.robmackillop.net On 17 May 2014, at 21:56, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Rob, On Sat, 5/17/14, Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: Many German mss (including Weiss) have music which uses just twelve courses, enough to make me wonder if there was in Germany a 12c instrument in currency. Baron is pictured with a 12-course lute and I believe the majority of his music calls for 12 courses. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 12 Course Lutes
On 17.05.2014 22:56, Christopher Wilke wrote: Rob, On Sat, 5/17/14, Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com wrote: Many German mss (including Weiss) have music which uses just twelve courses, enough to make me wonder if there was in Germany a 12c instrument in currency. Baron is pictured with a 12-course lute and I believe the majority of his music calls for 12 courses. Well, I wouldn't by a twelve pointer to play that boring stuff :-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 12 Course Lutes
- Original Message - From: Bernd Haegemann b...@symbol4.de Well, I wouldn't buy a twelve pointer to play that boring stuff :-) So IYV Baron=Boring? G. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 12 Course Lutes
When I think of 12 course lutes, I think of the ones described by Mace, with two peg boxes. But the lute Baron is holding looks like a regular 11 course lute with an extra course, right? Seems like there were two types of 12 course lutes. Are On 2014-05-17 20:01, Rob MacKillop wrote: I used to have one. There is a lot of repertoire for it, though arguably none of it 'big' repertoire. There is a little bit in the Wemyss ms, Panmure 4, and there is a large number of German pieces - Reusner, for example: the printed pieces in his books are for eleven courses, but the hand-written extras include a twelfth course. Many German mss (including Weiss) have music which uses just twelve courses, enough to make me wonder if there was in Germany a 12c instrument in currency. As for continuo, the instrument is closer to an 11c, but suitable for smaller ensembles. If you are serious about continuo playing of English songs, then perhaps an English theorbo would be better suited. I often felt one more course would give me the great 13c repertoire, while one fewer would be more apt for the French repertoire. It's a bit of an in-betweenie, so to speak. One word of warning, that extended peghead can be a nightmare when putting new strings on...I shed a few tears! Rob www.robmackillop.net On 17 May 2014, at 18:08, BENJAMIN NARVEY luthi...@gmail.com wrote: Dear All, Does anybody on this list have any experience with 12c lutes? I am considering getting one if I can get the funds together and I would be grateful for any counsel drawn from actual experience. I have never even laid finger to fret on one of these lutes before, so it is a bit of a leap of faith. That said, there is clearly so much music that could be played in either vieux ton or nouveau ton on this lute, and I think it is the ultimate historical continuo beast for so much 17c repertoire, in particular English music (Purcell, Lawes, etc.) Also: string lengths. I know they can be very small (around 55cm) to very big (perhaps 76cm or so). Any suggestions? I am kind of torn between having perhaps a smaller solo instrument and a larger one that I could use for accompaniment. Any thoughts? Best wishes, Benjamin -- [1]www.luthiste.com t +33 (0) 1 44 27 03 44 p/m +33 (0) 6 71 79 98 98 -- References 1. http://www.luthiste.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
