[LUTE-BUILDER] Re:
Paul, Having built several western red tops I can at least comment. For your renaissance Dieff varying from 1.4mm to 1.8mm across the board should work. If it is properly dried it is hard enough to support those thicknesses. You must, however, have VERY sharp scrapers and mind the grain. Rob Dorsey -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Daverman Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 8:22 PM To: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Does anyone have experience using western red cedar for the lute sound board? (I'm building a 10-cs Ren. Dieffopruchar.) I'm guessing it would need to be thicker than a spruce top. However, I'm not sure how much thicker I should expect it to be. Thanks, Paul -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: cutting the rose.
All, I use scalpels exclusively. #5 handle(large mounting) and #25 blades. The blades may be had sterilized or un sterilized. The blades are inexpensive which is good because I go through 3 or 4 on a rose. Most any medical supply house will have both handles and blades. No sharpening ever required as they are much sharper, with all respect, than any builder can ever sharpen a tool. I once walked into a medical supply house and asked for the #25 blades. The salesman took a quick look at me and said Instrument builder? I replied in the affirmative and asked how he could tell. Well, only two people seem to use the #25 blade, instrument makers and Rabbis. You just don't look like a Moyle to me. Best, Rob Dorsey http://LuteCraft.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute/vihuela action....
Kerry, What probably happened is that the repairman took too much body wood off when removing the soundboard. Yes, I know that none should have been removed but if it was done awkwardly some of the side may have split and the body had to be planed smooth, in the repairman's view. The options, as I see it without seeing the instrument, would be: to make a new bridge with a bit more string clearance, or, saw a fine kerf cut into the neck/block joint and splint it to slightly raise the neck angle, or, relieve the fingerboard as you mentioned with a scraper preferably a scraper plane to maintain the lines of the fingerboard. Personally, I like the new bridge method as it attacks the disease, not the symptom. Your fingerboard method would be second. Best of Luck, Rob Dorsey http://LuteCraft.com -Original Message- From: Kerry Alt [mailto:ke...@nmsu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 2:26 PM To: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] lute/vihuela action Hello all, I'm a newbie to lute construction but I have built a couple of modern guitars. I'm in the dark about a lute builder's approach to setting the neck angle relative to the soundboard. I've seen contradicting info re. fingerboard relief vs. different fret sizes. I'd appreciate your thoughts. My specific problem is an old vihuela that I sent out for a top re-bracing a few years ago. It came back unplayable as the first course sits on the 7th fret when notes on the 1st and 2nd frets are played. I put it in the closet in frustration, but am now in the mood to play it again. From my guitar building, my first inclination is to take out a cabinet scraper and put some relief in the fingerboard (like I do on guitars) but I'm wondering what you pros do? Hope this isn't too elementary an issue; this is a great group! Best, -Kerry -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: glue
Honestly, I'm really not trying to start trouble but...you're saying that you know what the strength of your shop mixed, recycled (and don't try to tell us you don't re-heat the pot) dry hide crystals of also unknown age is?? By what measure and to what standard? Got data? Do share. Seriously a premium modern glue is at least equal to and arguably stronger than 400 year old ox hoof and fish head glue. And that includes Titebond liquid hide glue. A quick sniff of most glues satisfies the freshness and I would love to see empirical evidence of failures including creep which I reckon is a throwback to guitar making, particularly the steel stringed ones. Friends don't let friends use any glue on an instrument which cures to a plastic state and at lute tensions, creep is a theoretical phenomenon. The only hide glue I use is for the top. And this because it may needs be removed when - notice, not if - someone drops the thing on the hardwood floor. Best, Rob Dorsey http://LuteCraft.com -Original Message- From: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us [mailto:dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us] Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 12:14 PM To: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: glue On Thu, Feb 5, 2009, Brod Mac in_brod_we_tr...@hotmail.com said: for attaching a peg box, what gule would be best, hide or a really good cabinet makers glue such as titebond III. aslo, anyone used titebond hideglue? its liquid form, wondering if it is good at all. thanks __ Avoid comercial liquid hide glue; it has a shelf life and you have no idea how long it has been sitting before you walked into the store, you also have no clue as to what strength it is. I prefer hot hide glue to anything modern, except for ACC (Superglue) which has uses in fixing cracks. Hide glue made the originals... Dont like modern 'plastic' glues because of creep and repair issues. Glue is like religion... -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: glue
Any of the aliphatic resin emulsion (original Titebond) or so-called cross-linking polyvinyl acetate (Titebond II III) are ok. There's not really all that much stress on the pegbox joint on a standard Baroque or Renaissance lute. Lutes with extended bass riders are, of course, another thing. Personally I put the box on with T-88 epoxy, goosh it into place, clamp it lightly (a screw can be used for this if you must but do remove it and fill the hole when you are done) because I cannot reason why the pegbox would ever need to be removed unless it is severely damaged or the lute is being converted to another configuration. I know that it may seem counter intuitive for a maker but I reckon we do not do enough re-configuring of lutes. The ancients certainly did. I betcha' there are thousands of lutes of various types languishing in closets that could be reborn for the owner in an entirely different form. Anyway, epoxy that sucker on and it will never fall off. Best, Rob Dorsey http://LuteCraft.com -Original Message- From: Brod Mac [mailto:in_brod_we_tr...@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 7:33 PM To: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] glue for attaching a peg box, what gule would be best, hide or a really good cabinet makers glue such as titebond III. aslo, anyone used titebond hideglue? its liquid form, wondering if it is good at all. thanks __ Windows Live Messenger. [1]Multitasking at its finest. -- References 1. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute
I use a bandsaw to resaw the stock to approximate thickness (about 3.5mm) and then a thickness sander to take it down to 1.8mm. The biggest mistake an amateur makes in rib thicknessing is to make the too thin. They bend nicely but you have left no meat on the rib for scraping, sanding and edge corrections. For start leave them at 2.0mm until you have a number of lutes under your belt. Rob Dorsey http://LuteCraft.com -Original Message- From: robert fallis [mailto:robert.fal...@virgin.net] Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 3:43 AM To: Jon Murphy; lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Brod Mac Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute For my thicknesses I resawed on the bandsaw, then I tried both the Luthier's Friend sanding device and the Wagner Saf-T-Planer - both on the drill press. The final thickness probably should be with a cabinet scraper - one way to use a planner to thickness the ribs is, to plane a good face on the rib blank. then tape(double sided tape)this good side down to a piece of ply wood, mdf,so that you have a thicker piece of wood, it's planing 2mm thick bits of wood that the planer won't do.. then plane that till it is nearer the thickness you want and finish with a scraper.. bob -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute
Just remember to not try to get the ribs to final thickness before assembly of the body. Final thickness - and note, rib thickness is not all that important, it will play fine with a paper mache body, I know, I did it - is actually achieved after the body is glued up through scraping of the interior and sanding/scraping of the outside. Rob Dorsey [1]http://LuteCraft.com __ From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:00 AM To: Rob Dorsey; Lute builder Dmth Subject: Re: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute If you don't have a thickness sander (the Old Ones didn't either, so don't worry) simply clamp one end onto your flat bench top, and using a small plane (I use a low angle one-handed plane), plane to the required thickness (ie to allow some trimming and shaping on the mould). For rippled sycamore and other cross-grained woods plane at right angles (or thereabouts - you'll find the best angle by trial) to the direction of grain (ie across the width) using an old dummy rib tacked to the flat surface as an edge stop. Finish, of course, with a scraper. MH --- On Mon, 26/1/09, Rob Dorsey r...@dorseymail.com wrote: From: Rob Dorsey r...@dorseymail.com Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute To: 'robert fallis' robert.fal...@virgin.net, 'Jon Murphy' j...@murphsays.com, lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu, 'Brod Mac' in_brod_we_tr...@hotmail.com Date: Monday, 26 January, 2009, 2:32 PM I use a bandsaw to resaw the stock to approximate thickness (about 3.5mm) and then a thickness sander to take it down to 1.8mm. The biggest mistake an amateur makes in rib thicknessing is to make the too thin. They bend nicely but you have left no meat on the rib for scraping, sanding and edge corrections. For start leave them at 2.0mm until you have a number of lutes under your belt. Rob Dorsey http://LuteCraft.com -Original Message- From: robert fallis [mailto:robert.fal...@virgin.net] Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 3:43 AM To: Jon Murphy; lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Brod Mac Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: lute For my thicknesses I resawed on the bandsaw, then I tried both the Luthier's Friend sanding device and the Wagner Saf-T-Planer - both on the drill press. The final thickness probably should be with a cabinet scraper - one way to use a planner to thickness the ribs is, to plane a good face on the rib blank. then tape(double sided tape)this good side down to a piece of ply wood, mdf,so that you have a thicker piece of wood, it's planing 2mm thick bits of wood that the planer won't do.. then plane that till it is nearer the thickness you want and finish with a scraper.. bob -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://LuteCraft.com/
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Fillets (?) between ribs
1. I recommend that you not bend the spacer lumber before cutting into strips. Slice it up into 3mm or so slices (sticks) and then run it through the Luthiers Friend until thin enough. Don't be afraid of it but do keep a firm grip on the stick. Also, do not hesitate as you feed it through or you will have a thin spot. Also make sure to arrange the stick so that the most advantageous grain is available for bending. 2. Bend the thinned sticks on your iron. If you have not already, cut a 4mm deep slot on the edge of the iron to allow the sticks to be fed through and be heated all over. 3. You can dampen the sticks at the greatest point of bending to make it steam and bend a bit easier. Ebony is just...well, ebony and hard to work. Rob Dorsey http://LuteCraft.com -Original Message- From: tam...@buckeye-express.com [mailto:tam...@buckeye-express.com] Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 1:36 PM To: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Fillets (?) between ribs Does anyone have a good method of planing or smoothing the edges of thin ebony strips to go between ribs? I've bent wider pieces of ebony to the right shape and sliced off thin strips with a band saw. As I cut each piece I could hand plane the cut edge on what was left, but as a result one edge of each fillet (I don't know what to call them) is rough. I'm thinking of trying my Luthier's Friend, but I don't know if it will just grab the piece and mangle it. Bending the ebony was tough (it needed a LOT more heat than the maple I'm using for the bowl), so I don't want to go through all of that and have the strips ruined at the last step. Thanks, Tim Motz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: What to build.
Let me preface this post by saying that I consider Robert Lundberg the greatest American Lute maker, living or dead. He was a true master producing master works. I learned my building from Bob Lundberg in his shop during the 1980s. I was somewhat surprised by some of the offerings in the book as the processes were not all exactly as I had learned. Experience has made me alter my building procedures even more from that initial tuition to suit my own vision of the instrument. I found that Bob's fealty to exact historical precedent, while not slavish or dogmatic, carried an importance that I thought unnecessary to modern playing. He was, however, just what the HIP advocate ordered. I, therefore, have assumed a comfortable position of maverick or outright heretic in my building techniques and uses of modern available woods. I depart from Bob's teaching in adhesive choices and uses, hardwood applications and string tensions. My barring has matured with time and my top thicknessing scheme has evolved as well. Bob would be interested in some of those innovations, aghast at others. But, he might be gratified that I toast him often and keep a worn copy of his book right beside my own building notes on the shelf in the shop. From each according to his gifts. Read the book, it has much to offer if not everything. Rob Dorsey http://LuteCraft.com -Original Message- From: Timothy Motz [mailto:tam...@buckeye-express.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:05 PM To: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us Cc: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: What to build. Someone once told me that I needed to read the book, but that no one would really build lutes that way. Having read the book, I would agree. I'm glad he wrote the book and I refer to it a lot, but I wouldn't build a lute that way. Tim Motz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: What to build.
Like so many things in life, the best way to learn lute building is to do it. Build a lute. I most highly recommend Robert Lundberg's book Historical Lute Construction available through the Lute Society. First carve your mold (I do not personally believe in the skeletal molds but rather the solid forms) and then start building. A 6 course renaissance instrument is a good starter. Take your time and don't be afraid of mistakes, you will make them. And, in correcting them you will learn the real luthier's magic - a good recovery. A good recovery is worth a thousand first time completions. Build, it's how you learn to build, Rob Dorsey http://LuteCraft.com -Original Message- From: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us [mailto:dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us] Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:14 PM To: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: What to build. Hello Paul: I am considering building a lute. Unfortunately, I have little knowledge of the lute other that hearing the wonderful, mellow tone of the lute on various recordings. I see there are plans available for building various types of lutes. Does any one know of a resource that has a list of the various types of lutes and a sound sampling of each type? it is diffucult to list and describe instruments which failed to survive but are known to have existed. How the lute was used has changed considerably over the centuries it has been in use in europe. Three and four instruments of differant pitches, each a 5 or 6 course instrument might take the several parts of a motet, madrigal, partsong or what have you. An instrument for accompanying voice might have extra bass strings and benefit from a larger body, but could be tuned in the tenor range (G lute); or Alto (A lute). As we get later in the repetoire, lutes are more used for basso continuo with large body size and exended necks for bass string sets which came to resemble harps, and replicas begin to need their own tickets to fly. Laux Maler made excellent lutes in the late 1500's, much valued by later generations; worthy of being converted into 9,10,11,12+ course instruments; so much so that few if any survive today with original neck and top. Douglas Alton Smith has a book out on the history of the lute, Lundberg has another on Historical Lute Construction; both are complements to the Dave Van Edwards DVD course. Galpin Society Journal, Oxfords quarterly _Early Music_, Early Music America, the journals and magazines of Lute Society, Lute Society of America, and the numerous other lute societys are all of interest if you are seeking reading material. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Snakewood
Henry, Have not built one from snakewood but, given the little bit of playing with it that I've done, I would not hesitate in building a lute from it. Each wood brings its own challenges and none is dead easy, except maybe completely unfigured maple. Rib width does not really matter. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Henry Villca [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 4:56 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Snakewood Dear friends, Does anyone know or had experience with snakewood broad-ribbed lute back??... is snakewood a suitable timber for lute backs?? Warm Greetings Henry -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction
Hi Dana and All, With all respect for Dana's woodworking skills, which must be vast to build pipe organs, I must disagree on the tools necessary to build lutes, even in some quantity. My shop is currently a corner of our basement and measures 10'x8'. The only power tools I use are, a Delta 14 band saw (for general sawing and re-sawing with a 1/2 wide blade), a table top drill press, a corded and cordless drill, a disk sander and a dremmel tool. The one other big power item is a Jet mini wood lathe for pegs. Everything else is done with hand tools. I prefer to get my chisels from eBay since I can find vintage socket chisels which make it easy to replace the handles. I sharpen with Japanese water stones. I have a collection of small planes, several of which I made for a specific task such as cutting the shelf for a binding on a lute top. My most expensive hand tools are a couple from Lie Nielsen, a small scraper plane and a low angle smoothing plane. Otherwise it's Stanley all the way. I built me first lute on a drafting table in my apartment in Portland. While I did some of the work at Bob Lundeberg's shop I did most of it at home, even carving the mould, making huge mess. It's not so much the amount of equipment you can gather that makes the lute. It's having the fire in your belly to do it and the guts to get about it. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 1:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction Sorry all, I should have waited to reply, my previous posting was incomplete because of time constraints. To build from plans and use wood bought from commercial sources (rather than as a kit) you will want access to a general woodworking shop - resawing bandsaw, ordinary bandsaw, table saw, jointer, planer. Many large cities have woodworking clubs. I build pipe organs for a living, and have permission to use the shops tools for small home projects (I pay rent when doing work for sale). Sometimes you can find a medium or small size cabinet/millwork shop that resells excess wood and does small-scale millwork for a reasonable fee, or one that allows employees to earn tips for small amounts of ad-hoc millwork on provided wood. Do you and the shop the favor of providing a sketch showing precisely what you want done; also, be careful not to impose, friday at closing is not the best time, tho a half hour earlier may have been ideal. For soundboard tuning you want cabinet scrapers and small planes, spokeshaves, and gouges, look to the ample violin making literature for details on use. Sharpening equipment for all your tools, and a reference book for sharpening angles (in metals) which you will augment for the woods you use. A plate of glass plus wet/dry paper (scary-sharp system), traditional european oil stones, traditional japanese water stones, each of these systems has some advantage, and there are machines one can invest in to help with precision and speed. Dont assume any tool fresh from the store is ready for use, plane soles are ground flat, but may have sprung, and usually are only sorta flat; frogs need adjustment if not reshaping; irons and cap irons need resharpening and honeing, then bedding. The proper cutting angle for a chisel/gouge varys according to the nature of the wood to be worked. Woods with diffuse small pores can tolerate a stronger angled edge which will last longer (Maple, Apple..) Softer woods with larger pores (diffuse or not) will be more air than cellulose and need a more acute cutting angle which is more fragile (pine, spruce..). Woods which are hard in places but also have rings of large pores (Jatoba, Oak, Ash) are a compromise, some cuts will need one tool, others a different one. Ideally you should have double sets of tools, but that is costly. Sometimes you must work with a tool not ideal but which will do the job with care. Manufacturors will give you a compromise angle which may not suit the work you intend. Minimal kit is a concept that is difficult to establish, so much depends on personal preference. Plan to spend time at yard and estate sales, tools are not always present, but when they are its often a good buy if only for the steel. Careful with complex pieces like a plain, often the sole will be worn out or split (wooden body), perhaps the iron is not original and wrong, perhaps a steeltipped iron has been oversharpened, perhaps a steel-bodied plane is warped, dented, or badly rusted beyond redemption. Still, old Stanleys, Records, and Baileys are worth $15-20 for you to experiment on tuning the plane up. Wooden bodied planes are easy to fabricate, if you have a usable iron, so even if the iron was wrong for the plane you have, you can make something to use that iron. A forge with anvils hammers and tongs is the ultimate tool, assuming you have a country place, tolerant neighbors and firecode. Most
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction
Dana, I cut my rosettes with #5 scalpel blades. (A funny story. A medical supply house once said: You're an instrument maker. On query as to how he would know that he replied, Only two people buy these blades, instrument makers and Rabbis and you don't look like a Mohel to me.) The design is drawn on 100% rag, acid free paper and then glued to the back of the belly. Initial cuts, done mostly as piercing, are made through the back of the belly cutting along the drawing lines through the paper and wood. The area of the rose should have been thinned to 1mm or so or this process is very difficult. Final shaping and trimming, cutting of the facets etc. is done on the front of the rose having first stabilized the wood with a very thin, blond shellac wash. Different strokes, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 8:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute construction On Wed, Dec 5, 2007, Troy Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: So gentleman, if there is a minimum regarding tools needed to get started such as: work bench (any particular size?) I use a small carvers bench to produce componants, 24 x 4 ft, and auxilliary space on an old oks dinning table in the same room for staging parts. I recomend a larger workbench, 30 x 4 ft would do, more never hurts. carving tools Depends on what you are building, some lutes were heavily carved, others plain. The rose can be worked with scalpel and small drills, but some use punches which you would have to make. I have a small set of gouges and carving tools which ends up involved in most projects. measuring tools The usual, bevel guage, squares large and small, metric tapes and inch tapes. planes Block and something long for jointing. drills -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Jon, I've made molds from pine lumber which works fine albeit harder to carve but the best is bass wood or boxwood. Basswood carves like butter and is easy to finish. As an avant-garde touch, you can carve the mould without facets so that the number of ribs can be varied or a multi-rib (39 or so) can be made if you're feeling particularly industrious. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:08 AM To: lute-builder Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar All, I think Rob has convinced me to can my skeletal form and make a solid one. I like the idea of sculpting the air within the body, and as a woodcarver I have all the tools and skills for shaping a solid form. The confidence I'll gain from having the form fully shaped will probably get me off my butt to make the body of my incipient lute. Dan's method is attractive in the apparent speed of the process, but I doubt I could accomplish it without being hands on at his workshop (which is tempting, but June is a long time away). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Din, Here's how to do the magic. As you know, walking on water is actually quite easy if one knows where the rocks and stumps are. In this case they are composed of two or three card templates derived from a drawing. If you don't have plans with sectional views (vertical cuts through the body at precise points) then you will need construct them by drawing the body in side view and front view. Due to the shape of the body, a front view will be in perspective with the small block end in the foreground and the maximum girth making up the largest part of the drawing. On this view you have drawn the edges of the facets beginning at a point in front of the block and extending to the perimeter of the drawing. If you started your drawing with a smooth curve you may now connect the facet lines and, voila', the form of the ribs. From this perspective view so segmented you may now fashion templates which match the facets, i.e. an inside cutout with flats which correspond to the outline of the body at a certain point. One should be at the thickest point of the body shell - the faceted outline of your drawing - and another about half way, no precisely half way, between the drawing edge and the block. Now, as you carve the mould you can apply these templates to the shape. You will find that using a felt marker to draw the edges of the facets in as you go, understanding that you will most probably carve them away and need to redraw. Once you have the whole mold carved - and please, please do not get too anal here, this is really not rocket science. Believe it or not instrument build is a pretty forgiving medium - you cam saw off the block end creating a flat onto which you can screw the basswood block wood. Once you do, you can see how the facets on the block are merely extensions of the body facets. It is things like this which keep me carving solid moulds. Hope this helps, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Din Ghani [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:26 AM To: 'Rob Dorsey'; 'Jon Murphy'; 'lute-builder' Subject: RE: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Jon, I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute I'd like to try a solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with accurately curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies me! I'm sure with your experience of carving you will be able to work out how to go about it. I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate facets, following detailed instructions from David, and using the lines and facets from the completed mould to guide the carving. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Lundberg's book does not even mention how the facets on the mould are cut. Rob, I hope you might be able to give me a clue, having learnt directly from him. I assume there is a systematic method, not relying just on a steady hand and a sharp eye? At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman... Regards Din To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Jon, To answer your question. He probably could, but he wouldn't. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 10:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Rob Dorsey'; 'lute-builder' Subject: Re: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Din, Carving skills are a combination of craftsmanship and artistry. Artistry and craftsmanship when carving a free-form scupture - but craftsmanship in duplicating a fixed form. The craftsmanship can be considerably enhanced by the proper tools. Like you I note that Lundberg's book doesn't show the process of carving the facets - the photos jump from a smooth form to a faceted form with nice gullies to allow the ribs to sink into the facet (something David v.E. also recommends for his skeletal form). I had quite a time doing the neck block on my DvE mold also, but I was using free hand gouges from my carving tools, a small slip can screw it up. Most good woodworking catalogs (Lee Valley and Woodcraft come to mind) offer small planes as luthier's planes or finger planes some of which have laterally curved bases and blades - the same applies to small spokeshaves. They are not expensive, and being planes and spokeshaves they have the advantage of a controlled cut (and a bit of reshaping of the tool can adjust the radius to what you need). I have no fear of doing the facets with the small planes, but I'd be quite fearful of shaping them with the free hand gouges. I'm sure that Bob Lundberg could have shaped them with a kitchen knive (as Steve points out that Dan Larsen can shape a peg hole with a knife), but Rob will tell us that. The sharp eye is always needed, but the steady hand less so when the tool is taking a minimal cut. It may take a bit more time for the beginner than the expert, but the result can be the same. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: Din Ghani [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Rob Dorsey' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Jon Murphy' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'lute-builder' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:25 AM Subject: RE: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Jon, I wish I had your carving skills - next time I make a lute I'd like to try a solid mould, but the thought of producing a complex shape with accurately curved lines and surfaces out of a lump of wood terrifies me! I'm sure with your experience of carving you will be able to work out how to go about it. I just about managed to carve the neck block with fairly accurate facets, following detailed instructions from David, and using the lines and facets from the completed mould to guide the carving. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Lundberg's book does not even mention how the facets on the mould are cut. Rob, I hope you might be able to give me a clue, having learnt directly from him. I assume there is a systematic method, not relying just on a steady hand and a sharp eye? At heart, I guess I'm more of an engineer than a craftsman... Regards Din To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
All, I use the solid form for several reasons: 1) While it is a greater work load to build - fact is it is sculpture, plain and simple AND you are not sculpting the body but the air within the body - the solid mold can be used many times. I've my original mould from my first lute under Bob in 1985 and I still build lutes on it. 2) I use push-pins to pressure the ribs into place for gluing on the form http://robdorsey.com/building.htm - just everyday map type push pins. These at the edge of the rib plus over-straps to provide down tension keeps the body true to the form. 3) After each rib dries I run the thin butter knife - yes, one of the self-made tools any luthier needs, a large table knife which one has thinned to .2mm or so and which has therefore become quite flexible - under the joint the full length of the form, breaking it loose. Therefore, when the last rib is on and dry, removing the block screws allow you to pop the completed bowl off of the form easily, more or less. There are many ways to skin a cat and they're all valid so long as you wind up with a skinned cat. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Din Ghani [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 6:48 AM To: 'Jon Murphy' Cc: 'Rob Dorsey'; 'Troy Wheeler'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Jon, I splashed out on the Lundberg book fairly late - after the bowl was finished. As you say, it is a useful cross-reference, and informed the rest of the build. However, I think one should take great care if any cross-fertilization happens - it is not always possible to mix and match different parts of the process. David warns of this in one specific, critical area - the way the neck is fitted to the body to achieve the correct action height. I fell foul of this in a less critical area - while carving the (Gerle) rose I misinterpreted David's instructions as I had just read Lundberg's description of his process, and made larger cuts than I should have in certain areas. Luckily the result was still good enough, and possibly added to the liveliness of the carving! Similarly, regarding the mould (as it is called here in the UK :)), I'm not sure that the difference between the toastrack type and the solid form is as major as the difference in the processes involved in bending, shaping and fitting the ribs. Lundberg's method involves trimming and fitting the edges in situ, and cutting the bevel by eye using a rebate plane and a file. David's uses a planing desk to cut the bevelled edges on a pre-bent rib. Not having tried the Lundberg method, I can't comment on which is easier or better, but like everything else, it's a matter of practice - the later joints will probably come out better than the earlier ones! Yes, it was scary at first, and getting the joins right while having the rib flat all along the mould was quite a challenge - it takes a while to work out where to adjust next. I know you've already cut and thicknessed the ribs - hope you've got enough spare, and that you aren't too bothered about figure matching - having a margin for making mistakes and starting again is very important! One thing to watch for though, if you do carry on with the toastrack, is to check that the corners of the facets on each slice do line up properly. I was too impatient in building my mould and ended up with some misalignments which made the subsequent rib-fitting even more trying. Possibly this might be less of a problem with a solid mould? By the way, the planing desk also doubled as a jointing plane for the soundboard, just by adding a fence! The other bit of advice is - make sure the mould is well waxed! I don't think I put on enough (or it might have something to do with the fact that many of the ribs had been on the mould for four years!) as I had the classic problem of the bowl not wanting to come off the mould! This might be another advantage of the toastrack style of mould - I ended up breaking and removing the slices of the rack from inside (relatively easy with the MDF construction) until I was able to lift the bowl. I wasn't too dismayed at having to destroy the mould, given the misalignments I mentioned earlier - in any case my next project is going to be a vihuela! I've wondered since whether Lundberg's instruction to break loose any surplus glue under the last rib to be glued, just before gluring the next one, would have helped to avoid this happening... There's plenty to learn, from any source - you'll find out what works for you only when you start doing it! There'll be plenty of mistakes and mishaps along the way, but it is amazing what you can get away with - looking at my finished lute it would take a knowledgeable eye to spot my deliberate mistakes - and there were many... Best wishes Din -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 03 December 2007 05:50 To: Rob Dorsey; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Troy Wheeler
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
I studied building with Lundeberg for 5 years and found his methods sound and practical, if a bit fussy. Since then experience has tempered the fussy aspects and smoothed my own techniques to be not quite so anal. It is, in all, a more comfortable way to work. I've not audited the Van Edwards method but reckon that any method which gives a student the confidence to roll up his sleeves and cut wood is a good thing. Lundeberg's book is merely the intellectual approach and should, like a good menudo recipe, be taken as a guide line. Bob, for instance, didn't use enough glue in many cases in the interest of neatness. It's not neat when a seam opens after a few years so I make certain that my joints are fully saturated with glue. You can always wipe it off. The final outcome is just as tidy. Start cutting wood and you will learn. Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Jon Murphy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 1:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Troy Wheeler'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar Troy, You have two good suggestions from Din and Rob. My lute is temporarily on hold for medical reasons, but I invested in both the Lundberg book Historical Lute Construction and van Edwards CD-ROM. For Din, I only have two and a half years into my lute. A stroke two years ago left me with the mold made, and the ribs shaved to thickness. Like you it is a matter of belief - I'm scared to make that next step of forming and shaping the ribs over the mold. Once I get that done I think the rest will go quickly. The stroke is no longer relevant, now it is a matter of the guts to step into the making of the body. Troy, if you were to choose to buy one of the suggested instructionals I'd spend the extra and go with David van Edwards CD-ROM - it is in PDF format and you can print out the pages as you go along to keep them by your workplace. The Lundberg book is excellent, but not quite as step by step, yet a good reference for the experienced builder of stringed instruments. I'm not unhappy to have both, but were I to do it over again I'd go with van Edwards for my first try (I got Lundberg before I heard of van Edwards). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute - Baroque Guitar
Hi Troy, I also highly recommend the Robert Lundberg book Historical Lute Construction which is available from the Guild of American Luthiers( http://www.luth.org/ ) but may be found at less cost on eBay or Amazon. The GAL is primarily a guitar builder's group barely earning the name luthier but they occasionally have something of interest to the early instrument maker. Baroque guitar building is quite different from the skills and disciplines needed in lute building and the GAL might be of greater service in such an endeavor than for lutes. Best advice: Sharpen your tools and start cutting some wood. Rob Dorsey, Luthier http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Troy Wheeler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:23 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute - Baroque Guitar Hello, I am new to the list. Can anyone recommend any literature regarding Lute and or Baroque guitar constuction? Best Regards TW _ Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.! Join in. www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: toirtoiseshell fingerboards
Try to get some buffalo horn from SE Asia. It might be available in a large enough diameter to allow a fingerboard to be fashioned from the side of the lower horn. It polishes up well and may accept stain if allowed to soak in. Go to eBay and find one of the Vietnamese vendors. They are QUITE mercantile and will jump through their transverse colon for a sale. Good Luck, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Solaris Solarium [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: toirtoiseshell fingerboards I am trying to make a faithful reproduction of my 18th c. english guittar, and want to remain true to the redish hue of the toitoiseshell fingerboard but am unwilling to slay a tortoise, obviously. Any ideas on a non-plastic alternative to fake this? christopher davies, portland oregon - Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: more on mastic inlay
Clive,
Whichever you choose, I would recommend that you seal the inlay cavity with
dilute shellac, well dried, to preclude migration of the stains. Ebony black
will migrate quite badly when against a wood which provides enough wicking
power.
Best,
Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com
-Original Message-
From: Clive Titmuss Susan Adams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 2:58 PM
To: lute-builder
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] more on mastic inlay
Thanks all for those suggestions. Great to hear from you all and as always
profitable in the saving in time and effort.
The suggestions appear to come down to;
-A ground vegetable pigment to stain the mastic, rather than dye or ink, to
prevent absorption into the softwood grain. Vegetable pigment could be
charcoal, ebony dust coarsely ground (per Stradivari, no less). I also have
a substance referred to as vegetable black in a set of earth pigments,
which are clays ground finely.
-Mixing the ground mastic with turpentine by in a bath/filter bag, adding
the pigment when the paste is workable, say with a palette knife, then
evaporating to create the proper consistency. I expect there might be some
shrinkage and that a subsequent fill might be neccessary?
{I have also located a source from a lab supply company in the US for what
appears to be prepared mastic paste, though I could not confirm this with
the supplier, it's still on order. Cost is pretty high, $45 for 25 g.
versus about $17 for the raw tears from Celtic Moon, incense supply. I have
a feeling it may be used for preparing biological specimens such as insects
or microscope slides. Here is the listing and website address:
Mastic Gum, Tears
CAS: 61789-92-2
Consists of Approximately 2% Volatile Oil, Masticinic and Masticonic
Acids, Masticoresene
http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/10420/SLM3196}
-Sealing the rosette rabbett with some untinted resin before filling with
mastic and placing the squares, in this case paua abalone. I have a feeling
this one will be very good advice.
-Making a glue filler with thick hide glue and a (vegetable) pigment or wood
dust. I have done this often in the past, it's very workable and hard, does
not shrink, takes finish and scraping well and is easily prepared.
Only one question: is oil of turpentine the same as turpentine as one would
buy as paint solvent, in other words thin consistency and volatile, or oil
consistency?
[I'm making two Juan Pages six course guitars with all the decor in koa
(quite anachronistic, but beautiful). Very large body, lovely shape, long
string length, a great model.]
Clive Titmuss
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.earlymusicstudio.com
early music downloads and cd's
--
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[LUTE] Re: Aging wood outdoors.
Hi All, Had to weigh in. To paraphrase the great Guido Sarduci, Wood is'a my beat. I have had good results with kiln dried poplar for lute necks. It has proven quite stable. The bias against kiln drying I think stems mostly from tone woods. Most of the Pac NW tone wood cutters dry the splits outside in drying sheds where the splits are stacked at 90 degree layers separated by small blocks to keep them from touching. Here they may spend more than a year. Finish drying is mostly done inside but again only in a non-controlled shed. I try to additionally age any tops at least a year in my shop which seems to make the finished lute have a more mature sound, even when new. I have on my shelf two real German Spruce tops I bought from Bob Lundberg in 1985. At that time he said that they were about 30 years old. He had bought them from the estate of a luthier in Germany while lecturing in Erlangen. Don't nobody get excited. They are for instruments for myself. I'm selfish that way. They are slightly age darkened (they're in the rough so I expect them to be white inside) but ring like bells when tapped. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Guy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Aging wood outdoors. Indeed. Wood that's dried too rapidly can behave very strangely and is often unstable. I had some kiln-dried beech once that had been dried too quickly and was extremely unstable. Not something you'd want to use for a lute neck, to say the least. -Original Message- From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:46 AM To: 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Aging wood outdoors. Guy wrote: It's also common to put something on the ends of the boards (wax, shellac, ..) to seal the end grain and help keep the end from drying more quickly than middle. Otherwise, the ends of the board shrink too rapidly, which tends to cause checks. Yes indeed. There's also a rule of thumb that it takes one year per inch of thickness of a given board to dry properly. Regards, Craig _ Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Hi Alexander and All interested, Well, I restore and rebuild fine shotguns and rifles in addition to making instruments. I'm a lifelong hunter, shooter and gun owner (Lifetime NRA Member) and have done my own gunsmithing for quite a while. The parallels of fine gunsmithing to instrument building are manifold in that attention to detail, a procedural attitude and a desire for perfection in one's craftsmanship may be extended to either discipline. I've carved a number of stocks for both rifles and shotguns, the latter being the most difficult. An earlier poster got it right in saying that we look for a lovely and chaotic figure in the butt region of the stock but need a straighter grain in the wrist of the grip. Walnut is a traditional wood only because it is stable (accuracy in a rifle depends on this), water resistant (accentuated by an oil finish), and strong. However, laminated wood, other woods like maple and glass-fiber composites all work just as well. Most purists (something that should invoke at least some empathy from this crowd) prefer walnut, the American Walnut or Claro being the favorite although Circassian from Turkey is also becoming quite prevalent. Just another view, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Alexander Batov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:34 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc - Original Message - From: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc I just got an answer from a well-known Austrian gun manufacturer. In fact the walnut was used because of its dampening characteristics - in old times, when the shaft did enclose the barrel and had to transport backstroke energy to the shoulder... While in no way trying to undermine the expertise of the gun manufacturer, I find it difficult to grasp the idea that the dampening characteristics of walnut (bearing in mind that the backstroke energy is transmitted to the shoulder along, not across, the grain of the wood) are really at play here. Common sense suggests that the mass of the gunstock would certainly be more important in lessening the back stroke momentum of energy after the gun is fired (i.e. the heavier the gunstock the better)! ... Unless, of course, the gun manufacturer can present some damping rate figures demonstrating walnut's superiority against other common varieties of woods ... Modern weapons are contructed differently. For precison guns only aluminium, carbon fibre etc. are used to achieve supreme stiffness. Walnut is still used as a tradition in hunting weapons. I think tradition is the key to this issue ;) --- Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Hi All, I have often and long wondered why we do not use walnut for lutes as a body wood. It certainly is as hard as maple, particularly the birdseye, and has a beautiful nominally dark hue. I imagine a walnut body with holly spacers under a fairly clear varnish as being lovely. There are so many variations of walnut in color and figure so as to provide a pallet of choices from which the client and builder might choose. If time allowed I'd make one on spec for proof of concept. Perhaps before LSA next year. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:23 AM To: Martin Shepherd; Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] ebony etc Martin As you know I am not a specialist, but found a few sites where guitar makers are raising the same questions as you are. They appear to be looking at cherry, walnut, and redwood. I am not sure what woods they are hoping to replace with these. However, I heard that some lute makers might be using rifle stock wood to replace ebony. I think it is a form of walnut : Highly Figured Claro Walnut ~ Gun Stock Wood http://www.ca-walnutdesigns.com/products/products.htm Here are a few quotes about walnut, followed by remarks on persimmon ( a local American ebony-type) : Best Anthony http://crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/rebec.html The fingerboard, tail, endpeg, and bridge all are carved from black walnut wood to contrast with the body - cheaper for the model than the ebony I would have otherwise used, and definitely easier to find. The body was stained with a wood oil, both for color and sealing the wood, but no varnish was applied. However, there is a problem with walnut according to the following : http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/ browse_thread/thread/dee77fd44d6142a/562990314731bb57?lnk=stq=stained +woods+to+replace+ebonyrnum=2hl=fr#562990314731bb57 Well, recently I spoke to a (relatively new) luthier who worked for a large high-end guitar company. (I won't mention names or locations here, so as to avoid any flaming anyone.)He said that this company had a large run of Oregon walnut guitars in a number of sizes, and that they had mostly all been duds. He felt that walnut was an excellent sound absorber (kind of like teak), rather than a sound reflecter, and provided the example of rifle stocks, where walnut is the most common wood, ostensibly because of its ability to absorb vibration. For this reason, he does not offer walnut as a choice in his guitars. Reply I have a guitar that is made completely of Walnut. Walnut back and sides, walnut top, walnut neck, and even walnut tuning knobs. Believe me, it is not a dud. The walnut top is clear, distinct, cannot be overdriven, highs and lows are very seperate, each with great fundementals. The overtones are certainly not as dominant as one would find on redwood or englemen, but they are there. The hard one to replace will be ebony. The 'local' variety, persimmon, is most usually white, although you can find logs with some dark grey streaking. Look at Henry's myrtle/spruce classical in the 'Student Gallery' on my web site to see a nice piece of persimmon used as a fingerboard. The white stuff is nice and hard, we just have to figure out how to stain it. Have you tried Black saddle dye in coats? I am not a luthier but I bought a bum-around guitar-a Martin DM and stained the Indian rosewood fingerboard and bridge with this dye and it looks like ebony from a few feet away-of course, white wood may not take the dye. Alan Carruth / Luthier http://www.alcarruthluthier.com http://groups.google.com/group/alt.guitar/browse_thread/thread/ 39d81be8892a6b79/3444368f9a812342?lnk=stq=stained+woods+to+replace +ebonyrnum=5hl=fr#3444368f9a812342 You can use ebanol from http://www.stewmac.com it makes rosewood look like ebony. it probably wasn't a mahogany fingerboard, most likely rosewood, or one of the cheaper woods typically used. ebanol will stay on, stain wont stay on. Patrick K [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message http://www.bartruff.com/services.php Currently good stocks of ebony come from India which has a non- threatened status for its species of Diospyros. But obviously, if every instrument maker rushes out to buy the Indian stock, there will be a problem. So, I use a little trick. Ordinary US grown persimmon certified by the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) as sustainably grown can be stained to look as black as Indian ebony, and it is equally as fine and hard. Same Family, same Genus, different species. It even sinks in water like ebony because it is ebony. It makes no difference to the sound, performance or integrity of the violin and the beauty is just as lustrous. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/ browse_thread/thread/dee77fd44d6142a/562990314731bb57?lnk=stq=stained +woods+to+replace+ebonyrnum=2hl=fr#562990314731bb57
[LUTE] Re: ebony etc
Anthony, No, not to my knowledge but that doesn't mean it did not happen. My point is, as a confirmed lute heretic awaiting the gallows, what difference does it make if it was not used 400 years ago? It's here and available now, where we live, and could make nice instruments of perhaps lower cost whilst losing nothing in acoustics or appearance. In fact it might be nicer than some historically correct woods. One builder's opinion. I could be wrong. Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:30 AM To: Rob Dorsey; Martin Shepherd Cc: Lute Net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: ebony etc Rob et al Are there any known historical examples of this? Of course even if there aren't, that would not exclude the possibilty that some did exist, with none having survived. Regards Anthony Le 15 févr. 07 à 15:00, Rob Dorsey a écrit : Hi All, I have often and long wondered why we do not use walnut for lutes as a body wood. It certainly is as hard as maple, particularly the birdseye, and has a beautiful nominally dark hue. I imagine a walnut body with holly spacers under a fairly clear varnish as being lovely. There are so many variations of walnut in color and figure so as to provide a pallet of choices from which the client and builder might choose. If time allowed I'd make one on spec for proof of concept. Perhaps before LSA next year. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:23 AM To: Martin Shepherd; Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] ebony etc Martin As you know I am not a specialist, but found a few sites where guitar makers are raising the same questions as you are. They appear to be looking at cherry, walnut, and redwood. I am not sure what woods they are hoping to replace with these. However, I heard that some lute makers might be using rifle stock wood to replace ebony. I think it is a form of walnut : Highly Figured Claro Walnut ~ Gun Stock Wood http://www.ca-walnutdesigns.com/products/products.htm Here are a few quotes about walnut, followed by remarks on persimmon ( a local American ebony-type) : Best Anthony http://crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/rebec.html The fingerboard, tail, endpeg, and bridge all are carved from black walnut wood to contrast with the body - cheaper for the model than the ebony I would have otherwise used, and definitely easier to find. The body was stained with a wood oil, both for color and sealing the wood, but no varnish was applied. However, there is a problem with walnut according to the following : http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic/ browse_thread/thread/dee77fd44d6142a/562990314731bb57?lnk=stq=stained +woods+to+replace+ebonyrnum=2hl=fr#562990314731bb57 Well, recently I spoke to a (relatively new) luthier who worked for a large high-end guitar company. (I won't mention names or locations here, so as to avoid any flaming anyone.)He said that this company had a large run of Oregon walnut guitars in a number of sizes, and that they had mostly all been duds. He felt that walnut was an excellent sound absorber (kind of like teak), rather than a sound reflecter, and provided the example of rifle stocks, where walnut is the most common wood, ostensibly because of its ability to absorb vibration. For this reason, he does not offer walnut as a choice in his guitars. Reply I have a guitar that is made completely of Walnut. Walnut back and sides, walnut top, walnut neck, and even walnut tuning knobs. Believe me, it is not a dud. The walnut top is clear, distinct, cannot be overdriven, highs and lows are very seperate, each with great fundementals. The overtones are certainly not as dominant as one would find on redwood or englemen, but they are there. The hard one to replace will be ebony. The 'local' variety, persimmon, is most usually white, although you can find logs with some dark grey streaking. Look at Henry's myrtle/spruce classical in the 'Student Gallery' on my web site to see a nice piece of persimmon used as a fingerboard. The white stuff is nice and hard, we just have to figure out how to stain it. Have you tried Black saddle dye in coats? I am not a luthier but I bought a bum-around guitar-a Martin DM and stained the Indian rosewood fingerboard and bridge with this dye and it looks like ebony from a few feet away-of course, white wood may not take the dye. Alan Carruth / Luthier http://www.alcarruthluthier.com http://groups.google.com/group/alt.guitar/browse_thread/thread/ 39d81be8892a6b79/3444368f9a812342?lnk=stq=stained+woods+to+replace +ebonyrnum=5hl=fr#3444368f9a812342 You can use ebanol from http://www.stewmac.com it makes rosewood look like ebony. it probably wasn't a mahogany fingerboard, most likely rosewood
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Bending mother of pearl
All, Dan is right on. To fit MOP into a curved space, as in a border on the bass rider on a baroque lute, one has to select a piece of MOP long and wide enough to accommodate the whole curve. You then fit the edge to the contoured shelf, glue it on and then proceed to grind the rest of it of until flush. For this reason, makers tend to use MOP only for flat inlays, or at least I do. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Dan Larson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Bending mother of pearl Dear List, No, you can't bend mother of pearl. Bone and ivory will bend after being soaked in an acid such as vinegar because it softens the collagen present in these materials and allows a certain amount of deformation. However, mother of pearl is made largely of nacre, an altogether different material which does not respond to acid in quite the same way. I think you will find that, it you soak mother of pearl in vinegar, that it will cause particles in the nacre to separate and you will end up with a puddle of glimmer at the bottom of the container. In my experience, any shape that mother of pearl gets to has to be cut. Regards, Dan Larson To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: How has lute music survived?
Herbert, Answer: Yes. Plus many private collections created from the hand-downs of the estates of the musicians themselves, gentry and patrons. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Herbert Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 10:27 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] How has lute music survived? How, in general, has lute music from 1400-1750 survived? University libraries? People's attics? Publishers? Music teachers? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting
To All what deserve it, This is most tiring. I have placed Roman on my Spam blocked list. I defend free speech - one of our better American habits - but, Jeez-Louise, enough already. Ahhh...Peace. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Ron Fletcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 11:28 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sting Roman wrote... Why don't you write an article from scratch on the subject of Appropriate and authentic lute stringing with negative view of Burguete, Holzenburg, Stubbs, Junghaenel, Karamazov, Sting, et.al. rather than vandalizing other people's work? RT I doubt that Mark would even consider falling into this trap... Was it not Roman that openly insulted Michael Stitt and condemned his 'Bach-plucked' web-site for, - in his own words, 'inaccurate and dangerous content' and, ultimately caused it to be taken off the web? There was no remorse or apology forthcoming either. Could this be a prime example of vandalizing someone's work? Mmm? I rest my case. Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Shipping
Michal, I'm afraid there is not good answer. I ship most of my instruments and have had good luck, thus far, with UPS but with a caveat. I have a relationship with a local UPS Store owned by a retired couple my age, who box up the lutes and ship them for me UPS Ground. Air shipment, even domestically, is effectively unaffordable. The lute is in a case, usually, and they double box it with heavy cardboard and peanuts in between the walls. That pretty much protects it from impact damage but not from being impaled on a forklift tine. If properly packaged - the key - all the usual suspects probably would do with DHL being the best to many locations internationally. Security all comes down to how well it is boxed up. It should be in a good case (I put my lutes in a plastic bagsthen in the case and use bubble wrap as extra padding within the case) and with strong protective packaging around the case. Then you INSURE it for at least its value. I do not reimburse for an uninsured instrument. My shipper said that they had a fellow show up with a theorbo merely wrapped in bubble wrap wanting it shipped. He demanded minimum packaging and, over protests, got it. The t'bo was the worse for the experience I am told, pretty well smashed. That was UPS. It is all in the packaging. With full insurance and the packing mentioned above it costs pretty close to $180 bucks to ship a lute domestically in the US. Europe is about $500. Good Luck, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Michal Gondko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 1:18 PM To: [LUTE] Subject: [LUTE] Shipping Can anyone recommend a shipping company in the US, that has a reputation of shipping musical instruments safely from the US to Europe? I'd appreciate any hints, M To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss
Hi Nathan, I have the dissertation ms in old 1980s Xerox copy format. It's not pretty but readable. Perhaps I could get it copied (don't have the time or patience to stand at a copier for a couple of hours) and get it to you. I'm from Athens Texas originally and was in the music program at UT where early music was any recital before noon. No promises but I'll see what I can work up. Smith's dissertation on Weiss is so well constructed that it makes good reading unlike many other thesis and dissertations. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 5:28 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Weiss Greetings I am writing an undergraduate paper for a music literature class on Italian and French baroque styles in Weiss's works. I am aware of Dr. Douglas Alton Smith's doctoral dissertation on Weiss's late sonatas but it is unpublished and I am having much trouble contacting him/finding it. Additionally, are there other sources that any of you are familiar with that address the aforementioned topic? Best- Nathan Lindzey. This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Frei body renaissance lute
Hi All, I don't know if there is actually anyone on this list that is interestred but I'll fire a question into the ether and hope for a response. I am currently building an 8 course lute for a customer on a Frei body. I do not build many renaissance lutes and specialize in baroque instruments but took this commission anyway. He specified the Frei body but also specified a 62cm mensur. Now, the Frei is a long body, 52cm from block end to end cap, and the narrower neck/body juncture of the 8 course makes it even longer. The problem is, of course, that the body will not accommodate anything shorter than about 66cm without the neck being ridiculously short. I talked him into 65cm but renaissance players, and I'm not one, advise that anything longer than 62 is untenable for the solo repertoire. Any ideas? I'm cutting the rose now, the neck blank is on, and will have the soundboard glued on in a couple of days. I can't lengthen the neck by repositioning the bridge because, well, the bridge goes where it needs to go acoustically. He's probably going to wind up with a fingerboard about 28cm long which puts 4 frets on the soundboard. Is there precedent? I try to accommodate requests from clients but this neck sure looks short. Mind you, I usually build 70cm+ on the Frei for baroque lutes. Best, Rob Dorsey http://robdorsey.com/ http://RobDorsey.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Frei body renaissance lute
Many thanks to all who responded and there were some good ideas. Unfortunately the consensus was that the Warwick Frei body was too long for a renaissance lute in g. The almost universal suggestion was to build it on a smaller Frei body. I'm basically a baroque lute maker and I have to have my arm bent to accept a commission for a renaissance instrument therefore I don't see building a mold (I take a lot of pains in my molds) for one instrument. In answer to the query, it will have 8 frets on the neck and 4 on the soundboard. It is a very simple instrument, so done to accommodate the budget of the client, and has no frills, no half binding or veneers including the neck (I keep some lovely colored mahogany around for such necks) and the body is of lightly figured maple. I'm barring and thinning it for g at 65cm so we'll see. It's at 440 as well. It'll be a nice instrument if a bit short necked for my taste. I like big, honkin' baroque Deiffopruchars with 74cm on the board and 80 on the extension. Thanks again, you all confirmed my conclusions but the customer is usually if not always right. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey http://robdorsey.com/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Frei body renaissance lute
Many thanks to all who responded and there were some good ideas. I am curious however how this thread found its way onto the Lute list. I posted it on the Lute Builders and Baroque Lute lists but it seems to have migrated here. My comments were really intended for other builders but it either migrated to this list (automatically) or was forwarded. Either way, I will have to keep that in mind in future posts. Unfortunately the consensus was that the Warwick Frei body was too long for a renaissance lute in g. The almost universal suggestion was to build it on a smaller Frei body. I'm basically a baroque lute maker and I have to have my arm bent to accept a commission for a renaissance instrument therefore I don't see building a mold (I take a lot of pains in my molds) for one instrument. In answer to the query, it will have 8 frets on the neck and 4 on the soundboard. It is a very simple instrument, so done to accommodate the budget of the client, and has no frills, no half binding or veneers including the neck (I keep some lovely colored mahogany around for such necks) and the body is of lightly figured maple. I'm barring and thinning it for g at 65cm so we'll see. It's at 440 as well. It'll be a nice instrument if a bit short necked for my taste. I like big, honkin' baroque Deiffopruchars with 74cm on the board and 80 on the extension. Thanks again, you all confirmed my conclusions and as always, the customer is usually if not always right. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey http://robdorsey.com/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re:
Ron, If properly strung, an 11 course baroque lute of moderate string length (68cm or so) could probably be tuned for either g tuning (renaissance) or dm tuning (baroque). It won't be brilliant for either but would work in g as a 10 crs renaissance and an 11crs baroque lute for the French literature and some of the German. The stringing would be tricky and I would go to Chris Hendriksen at Boston Catlines for consultation. He supplies me my strings and is very knowledgeable. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:10 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] I'm new to the lute but have played guitar for many years. I would like to be able to play both renaissance and Baroque pieces. In purchasing an instrument would an 11 course lute work for both or would the D-minor tuning be a problem for the renaissance music. Ron To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lundberg book
All, It just goes to show that the American showman P. T. Barnum was right, there is one born every minute. A used copy of Robert Lundberg's excellent posthumously published treatise on historical lute construction, entitled oddly enough, Historical Lute Construction, just sold on eBay for $81US. It is available brand new from the Guild of American Luthiers for $60 to members and $65 to non-members. Moral: before buying, do some research or at least a Google search. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: s there a non-spruce topwood in your past/present/future lute?
To weigh in on this topic, I prefer to use Engelmann Spruce for many of the reasons given by Lou. He is right, the sound is effectively identical to German Spruce (the fact that there is no such thing any more notwithstanding. German Spruce all comes from the Moravian hills, the Carpathians and Ukraine.) in tone and appearance. It is, however, harder to work and its acoustical properties result in problems for the builder. Engelmann has a structure that is odd in that the annual grain lines (rings) are very hard and stiff while the material in between is an almost fluffy cellulous material. This soft filler will easily pull out of the grain structure or fracture along its line. For the maker it means that a carelessly pulled tape can rip shards of the cellulose out of the grain leaving a little ravine in the wood. These can easily be too deep to scrape out and only leaves the alternative of ignoring or filling. Anyone who has cut a rose or the shelf for a half binding in Engelmann knows the problem. The tone, however, is worth the effort. Handle it with great care and patience and it will reward you with good results. My most recent 13crs used a beautiful Engelmann top and brought out the best of the Frei body's characteristics. Sitka is theorbo wood. It is much stiffer than German or Engelmann and thinning is not the whole answer. Just wanting to take out mass is a simplistic approach and, like most simplistic approaches, doesn't tell the whole story. Yes, less mass is generally a good thing but not always. In thinning the top, or the bars, we change the tone of the whole top. In some cases removal of mass has the opposite effect than might be intuitively apparent. For instance, taking height and mass from the treble fan bars can make the top too free and decrease treble volume. Same with the bass bar. Thickness of the top is dictated by the top itself and the maker must know what he/she wants before picking up the scraper. Barring is the same and takes patience and an ear for tuning the top to achieve a desired tone in the final instrument. Clients have some input into the process and requests like, make it sweet and melodic or I want it to have some 'punch, etc. help guide the maker in making choices in top material or thicknessing. In general, I don't use Sitka for lute tops except theorbos where an almost strident and aggressive tone are often the request. You can make a t'bo with a hard Sitka top sound like a brass band. I have not experimented with members of the cedar family but would like to. I don't know about longevity but most lute tops crack or are damaged to the point of being unplayable or un-repairable long before they reach their acoustic life span. I've heard of recordings made on 300 year old instruments, although I've not personally heard one. It would, however, be a shame to put in all the effort of building a lute only to have it sound like a pasteboard box. For now, I'll stick with what works - German and Engelmann for lutes, Sitka for t'bos only. Best, Rob http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Louis Aull [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:50 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: s there a non-spruce topwood in your past/present/future lute? I have built lutes with both the cedar and sitka spruce tops. The cedar was tried in an attempt to get the thing to stay in tune better, with less expansion due to humidity. This was done on a light instrument with a thin top. It produced a soft, damped tone and did stay in tune well. Within 5 years, all the spring was gone and the top was tonally dead as well as warped. This is why aircraft spars are spruce and not cedar. The sitka spruce tops produced a very strong bright tone, make excellent rosettes, and crack easier. These seem to me to be better suited for bright ren. lutes. The last top I put on this summer was softer engelmann spruce, this produced a rich full tone for the bar. lute. I like the brilliant white apperance, I don't like the fuzzing while cutting the rosette. This one had a definite break in of about 4 weeks, during which it sounded tight. Now I like it just fine. I'm not rich enough in time to keep a set of lutes with different tops for side-by-side comparison. I make my lutes for myself, and this represents only my opinion. The swan neck Brunner I've started will have the engelmann top. Lou Aull -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting
Gary, The reasons you outlined below are why I build my baroque lutes for a slightly higher tension, around 4.0kg rather than the historically correct 3.2 or so. The difference is transparent to the player except that projection and all over volume is much enhanced. Simply put, my lutes tend to be louder (not harsh or strident) than others I've owned or heard. It's all in the barring and thickness profile of the soundboard. They play as softly as one of lower tension which is a function of correct setup and stringing. Lutes can be heard, if purpose built. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 4:40 AM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting Dear Caroline; I've attended concerts sponsored by the San Francisco Early Music Society which has a large number of season ticket holders who get preferred seating at their concerts and fill their concerts with audiences of 2-300 people. After attending two lute concerts, one featuring David Tayler and one solo concert performed by Hopkinson Smith, I resolved never to attend another lute concert sponsored by Sfems because the lute simply could not be heard from more the 6 or 7 rows back where all the lute players (who cannot afford season tickets) were forced to sit. I refuse to pay $40 for a ticket to watch someone play a lute I cannot also hear. I've also attended Julian Bream concerts in which he played guitar and lute. Bream's guitar could be heard fine throughout the hall, but when he picked up the lute, even his heavy lute, no one passed the 6th row could hear it. There were many complaints. So, the idea that volume is not an issue with the lute in these situations is wishful thinking, in my opinion. I did not mean to imply that volume was the only issue leading to the disappearance of the soft-voiced instruments, but I think it was a very significant factor. The reason one increases the string tension on an instrument is to get more bang for the buck, i.e. more volume out of the instrument. And that's the reason, I believe, for the changes that led from the baroque guitar to the modern guitar. These changes had to be made so the guitar could handle the increased string tension. And, why increase string tension? Volume, volume, volume. The Torres guitar is significantly louder than either the lute or the baroque guitar. I don't think it is simplistic to argue that the appearance of the concert hall was a significant element motivating these changes. I also don't believe these changes occurred because of the unhistorical early music principles of lutenists, gambists and keyboardists. All the Best, Gary To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
David, Or, perhaps, it isn't dead; merely resting awaiting a reawakening. If you had heard Chris Wilke play the 1987 suite by Carlo Domeniconi you would certainly not think it dead. Chris, you gotta record that!! No resurrection is needed, only use. Even at my pitiful playing level I've never had anyone for whom I've played look at a baroque lute and say, Why bother? The visual and tonal impact of the instrument is enthralling to any musician. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 10:52 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Too soft to live Okay, here's what we have so far in a nutshell to account for the demise of the lute: The lute died: 1. Because it wasn't able to maintain its primary function as an accompaniment instrument due to the decline of continuo 2. Because it wasn't loud enough to fill a concert hall 3. Because it was too hard to play, and was consequently ignored during the great dumbing-down which followed the decline of the patronage system 4. Because of something Linda Sayce said about the mandora 5. Because it was not able to move beyond the single-affect system characteristic of the Baroque period 6. Because it not able to handle the wider tonal palette required by the new music 7. Because it became unfashionable Any other ideas? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Back to music, maybe?
Luca, To paraphrase the late and malevolently great Darth Vader Luke, never underestimate the dork side of the force. I reckon many on the list are actually closet rockers and Sting let them down. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Luca Manassero [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:37 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Back to music, maybe? Dear all, while is surely interesting to see how much passion can be poured in such an irrelevant (for us) marketing issue, do you see any chance to get back to music discussions or is this list going to be talking about Sting ONLY forever? ;-) Luca To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
David, Not mention Jethro Tull doing the BWV 996 Bouree' on flute. Now, that's interpretation! Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 5:45 PM To: Howard Posner Cc: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting On Oct 9, 2006, at 3:34 PM, Howard Posner wrote: That's too bad. You missed Ronn and Mick Jagger doing Ferrabosco. Uh, which Ronn Wood that be...??? Hah! Sir Mick, accompanied on period instruments by master Ronnie and master Keith, wth master Charles beating out the tactus. But, wait a minute...don't we already have that? DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Last night's concert by Chris Wilke
To the List: For those who were not fortunate enough to attend, the baroque lute and theorbo concert by list member Chris Wilke last night was a triumph on several levels. First, Chris is a really nice and gentle guy and that's enough in so gifted a musician but his playing has a wonderful, precise aggressiveness that does credit to the music and the instrument. Chris' choices are also a lesson in 17th century European musicology. He began self effacingly in consort with baroque guitarist Rodney Stucky on Ferrarese's Sonata de camara in dm in which he pulled the mighty t'bo back to balance the delicate strumming of the baroque guitar but then he left the theorbo strapped on for 5 solo movements of the Pieces in C Major by little known instrument maker and theorbist, Charles Hurel which showed the instrument well - which I judged from the first row to be a 74/140cm strung in Nylgut - and displayed Chris' comfort and command of both the axe and the repertoire. Still on t'bo he was joined on stage by soprano Esther Nam and accompanied her on the Strozzi L'amante segreto and Sances Usurpator tiranno demonstrating well to the audience that most effective and historical use of the Italian theorbo. Then out came a 13 theorboed baroque lute after Martin Hoffmann and he eased into the Falckenhagen Concerto for lute solo in Eb major whose final Vivace is as good and lively - Chris appears to like the piece given his energetic rendition - as the German 17th century lute repertoire has to offer. He then continued with pieces from the Robarts Lute Book - which many of us may have available - including a lovely Chaconne by Ennemond Gaultier. It was his finale though that stunned the house. His own arrangement of a remarkable guitar suite by Carlo Domeniconi (1987) which was penned after the composer spent some time in Turkey was a revelation and showed that, as I say on my web site, The baroque lute is far from dead. It is merely misunderstood. Intertwined into the stimulating and sometimes frenzied piece are elements from music for the oud and saz, recognizable in the tonalities and rhythms, which flow into elements of Moorish influence on the Flamenco style. These diverse but linked forms alternate throughout the work ending in a wild ride of Flamenco rhythms supporting a most modern repeated theme overlaid on the fireworks with steady and pointed emphasis. In it Chris displays a fearless ability to maintain the frenetic tempo with unvarying clean technique. While the entire program was marvelous, in this piece we saw true virtuosity emerge and it left this listener amazed by what was just heard from a baroque lute. I bought his cd then and there. You can find it at: http://cdbaby.com/cd/cwilke http://cdbaby.com/cd/cwilke and includes the Composee pour Mademoiselle de la Balme The Theorbo Music of Charles Hurel. You Should'a Been There, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Concert by Chris Wilke, NKU
To the List: For those who were not fortunate enough to attend, the baroque lute and theorbo concert by list member Chris Wilke last night was a triumph on several levels. First, Chris is a really nice and gentle guy and that's enough in so gifted a musician but his playing has a wonderful, precise aggressiveness that does credit to the music and the instrument. Chris' choices are also a lesson in 17th century European musicology. He began self effacingly in consort with baroque guitarist Rodney Stucky on Ferrarese's Sonata de camara in dm in which he pulled the mighty t'bo back to balance the delicate strumming of the baroque guitar but then he left the theorbo strapped on for 5 solo movements of the Pieces in C Major by little known instrument maker and theorbist, Charles Hurel which showed the instrument well - which I judged from the first row to be a 74/140cm strung in Nylgut - and displayed Chris' comfort and command of both the axe and the repertoire. Still on t'bo he was joined on stage by soprano Esther Nam and accompanied her on the Strozzi L'amante segreto and Sances Usurpator tiranno demonstrating well to the audience that most effective and historical use of the Italian theorbo. Then out came a 13 theorboed baroque lute after Martin Hoffmann and he eased into the Falckenhagen Concerto for lute solo in Eb major whose final Vivace is as good and lively - Chris appears to like the piece given his energetic rendition - as the German 17th century lute repertoire has to offer. He then continued with pieces from the Robarts Lute Book - which many of us may have available - including a lovely Chaconne by Ennemond Gaultier. It was his finale though that stunned the house. His own arrangement of a remarkable guitar suite by Carlo Domeniconi (1987) which was penned after the composer spent some time in Turkey was a revelation and showed that, as I say on my web site, The baroque lute is far from dead. It is merely misunderstood. Intertwined into the stimulating and sometimes frenzied piece are elements from music for the oud and saz, recognizable in the tonalities and rhythms, which flow into elements of Moorish influence on the Flamenco style. These diverse but linked forms alternate throughout the work ending in a wild ride of Flamenco rhythms supporting a most modern repeated theme overlaid on the fireworks with steady and pointed emphasis. In it Chris displays a fearless ability to maintain the frenetic tempo with unvarying clean technique. While the entire program was marvelous, in this piece we saw true virtuosity emerge and it left this listener amazed by what was just heard from a baroque lute. I bought his cd then and there. You can find it at: http://cdbaby.com/cd/cwilke http://cdbaby.com/cd/cwilke and includes the Composee pour Mademoiselle de la Balme The Theorbo Music of Charles Hurel. You Should'a Been There, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com http://robdorsey.com/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
Howard et al, Actually there is apparently, reading Narvey, considerable evidence that English theorbists adopted the Dm tuning despite it being a French initiative. Go figger' huh? Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Howard Posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:26 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question On Thursday, Oct 5, 2006, at 22:21 America/Los_Angeles, LGS-Europe wrote: After 1680 the tuning nuveau in Dm spread with the Enlightenment movement to include lutes and theorbos played in northern Europe. Don't forget the mandora, very nortern Europe, too, that stayed in old tuning. David And the English theorbo. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question
David and All, The article by Narvey is excellent, scholarly and, given that it is factual and not opinion, definitive. After 1680 the tuning nuveau in Dm spread with the Enlightenment movement to include lutes and theorbos played in northern Europe. Only the Italians and those under their influence - aka Vienna - are reported to have stuck with the renaissance tuning. Very large theorbos and chittarone handled the problems of string length - 89cm on the fingerboard not unusual - by either adopting a mock reentrant tuning and lowering the first or first and second course an octave or, more inventively, just dropping out the first course tuning and opting for d,a,f,D,A,G, etc. Having played continuo in Dm tuning on my 76/120 theorbo lute, I can say that it falls readily to hand and many chords (in keys popular with the bowed instruments, barokflaute and recorders, like F,C G, are easier in the Dm tuned lute. All this is my opinion, I could be wrong. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Nancy Carlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:46 PM To: David Rastall; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another Theorbo Question The Lute Society of America just published a nice article on this subject written by Benjamin Narvey. Some of you who are not members might not have seen it. Anyone who thinks they might want to join the LSA can email me off the list and will send them a copy of this issue. Nancy Carlin LSA Administrator To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [Re: EMS lutes Good or Bad
Ron and All, Interesting. The theorbo and lute kit, does anyone have any idea what the soundboard is made of. It looks like some sort of cedar, very wide gain with tons of runout. I've heard that they used select packing crates to source their tops but this is the first visual confirmation. I'm curious why, as it would only take a decent board to make it so much better, why they didn't put a $40 A grade soundboard (let's see that's about 35 quid) on the thing and it might have been quite usable with adjustment of nut, bridge - even redrilling the holes if necessary. You can enlarge the existing holes and then glue in small dowels then re-drill lower and re-finish - or frets to get a decent action. Pegs and peg holes can be cleaned out and burnished to get better action. A lot can be done to make even an indifferently built instruments work. But, the soundboard has to be of at least some quality. It is the heart and soul of the instrument and no amount of pretty lacquer can make up for a badly set up board. Also, all the above mentioned things can be done to one of their other lutes, even by a savvy amateur. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Ron Fletcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 4:03 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [Re: EMS lutes Good or Bad This will help...(So many businesses called EMS!) http://www.e-m-s.com/front/emsframes.html Best Wishes Ron (UK) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 October 2006 20:18 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [Re: EMS lutes Good or Bad Anyone had a look at the new EMS theorbo? Cheers, Jim -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Venezia
Ah Venice, Of all the cities of the world to which I have been exposed, it is the most lovely. The Venetians are the most handsome people in Europe, raven haired, blue eyed and with noble long bridged noses, and are also remarkably friendly - even to Americans - and easy going. Crime seemed to be almost non-existent and I swear that you could leave you wallet on the curb while having dinner and retrieve it unmolested after the coffee. Seek out the music and instruments, but don't fail to spend some time lazily wandering the streets and canals or sipping a coffee in the Piazza San Marco. In this world of rough ugliness and McFastFood, it remains a wonderful, genteel and elegant city. Regards, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Manolo Laguillo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 8:13 AM To: LUTELIST; LUTE BAROQUE; LUTE VIHUELA Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Venezia Hi, In one month I will stay for 3 days in Venice (Italy). Not so much time, considering what a city it is, so I want to ask you about those things (besides the usual ones) that somebody belonging to this lutelist should unavoidably see/hear/smell/taste/sense. Thank you in advance for your guide! Saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single strung archlute !!!
All, I've followed this thread at a great distance and with some trepidation. In all, it is sad when scholarly minds wander so far from the path and no longer follow the best angels of our nature. Passion is the impetus that drives greatness, for sure, but the easy and slippery slope from passion to acrimony is always there and ready to foul the party. While not as learned as many of those who posted here, I have an idea that all this talk of HIP and authentic performance is, ultimately, for bupkis. If you take a simple man who cannot read into the Sistine Chapel, he is still stunned by its beauty. (I know. I took flight attendants there and no more simple creature exists on this earth.) Likewise, the Mozart Requiem engulfs the football rowdy in its all enveloping pathos, just like a human. Scholarly criticisms aside, doesn't Sting at least get credit for trying? And, aren't we a bit disloyal to the music in not believing that it can stand on its own? This music has endured for 4 centuries. It can surely stand up to some perhaps misguided interpretation by Sting, me, or any other person who sees beauty in it and tries to give it life. We toil at Bach because when it works, in that rare, fleeting moment, it is miraculous. This music is the very heart and soul of beauty and transcends the centuries to become relevant today. Hopefully, that's why we play it, not just to satisfy some academic hunger to recreate the past. This is music folks, not archeology. I reckon that the music is greater than its interpreters. I listened to the cuts from the CD. I probably won't buy it but, damn, old Sting tried and took a real chance in doing so. That the critical harpies want to pick him apart is too bad. Quite frankly, it was like watching someone being picked to death by crows. The music is the thing, its preservation essential, and shame on us for not loudly encouraging anyone who attempts to play it. Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute stand???
It does not appear to be a chair at all but rather some sort of stool, triangular with 3 legs of which one protrudes above the seat plane and upon which he seems to be resting the body of the lute. Historians, could there have been a lute stool (no potty jokes please) made to support the corpus organum (also no organ jokes)? Inquiring Minds, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Doctor Oakroot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 7:49 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute stand??? Looks to me like he's sitting with his left leg through the back of the chair (maybe the back is just the two extensions from the back legs) and that's one side of the back... but that would be even more uncomfortable than the dagger and unstable. Greetings All, A friend sent me a link to this enggraving by Meckenem the Younger. http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24901 Now I have seen this engraving before but she mentioned a lute stand and upon looking more closely I see she was referring to something that is sticking up under the lute between the player's legs. Now in looking further this appears to extend below the stool he's sitting on and I'm not convinced it's a lute stand but instead a dagger on a belt. Why the player would have this in the position it's in is beyond me as it seems that it would be most uncomfortable and the hilt would tend to scratch the lute. Also he appears to be leaning on the table to support the lute and thus an additional stand might not be necessary. So I ask you all, what do you think it is? Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars. --
[LUTE] Re: Lute stand???
It is always fascinating to me what differences in perception can bring forth. As this thread has developed, I have gone back to the drawing and, with the observations of the correspondents in mind, saw exactly what they saw. It also makes me wonder why I didn't see that myself. Our visual cortex seems to operate mostly as a pattern recognition device and, given that you don't know what you don't know, you often see only what you expect to see. It is probably why experienced detectives are prone to disregard the testimony of eye witnesses. A triangular stool, a sword or dagger in its scabbard slung between the thighs and tied round the waist of a slim young man playing a lute with a plectrum, all are quite visible now. There is no beating several sets of eyes. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Stephen Fryer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 2:38 PM To: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute stand??? Doctor Oakroot wrote: Wouldn't he be playing with a plectrum in that period? Looks like he's grasping something between thumb and index - but can't really see at this resolution. He is holding what looks like a quill between index and thumb, roughly at right angles to the strings. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo question
David, The body of the lute/theorbo - particularly the t'bo - affects the sound profile immensely. By body shape we actually mean the shape and volume of the air cavity within the body and how its volume and distribution affect the propagation of the vibrations of the sound board. Likewise, the size and placement of the rosette, the barring of the board and location and mass of the bridge pose their own effects not to mention the MOL (modulus of elasticity) and directional stiffness characteristics of the soundboard material itself. For instance, comparing three bodies with which I have some experience, the Frei body, the big Dieffopruchar and the little Dieffopruchar. The big Dieff has a rounder and more mellow sound in which the basses can become muddy if the sustain is too great. The soundboard must therefore be carefully barred to preclude this. It seems to provide adequate projection if sufficient string length and tension are used and certainly provides a stunning visual effect if the traditional 86/160cm lengths are used. The Frei, in contrast, tends to have a more complex tonal profile with a strong core tone reminiscent of a good guitar but with a coppery, bright overtone floating over the core. This slightly imposing brightness gives the little Frei a presence that belies its physical size and t'bos of 74/140cm are quite loud and useful in ensemble (not to mention much easier to transport). The little Dieffopruchar fall somewhere in between. The popular Hoffmann, in my observation, is too deep so as to provide sufficient brightness for penetration without silver overspuns in the bass and all the way up to the 4th crs. Again, there is a risk of the basses becoming muddy if the instrument is not barred for a shorter sustain in these grand piano basses. All that's the long way around saying that size does matter, particularly in the body cavity. Each body seems to have a tonal profile and a Frei is a Frei regardless of whether it's an 11crs or a t'bo. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 1:14 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] theorbo question Dear collective wisdom. I'm finding out about some of the size variants available in theorboes. For example, I've been looking at one which is 79 cm playing length on the fingerboard, and 159 cm on the diapasons. That seems quite a long neck extension since, with 10 frets on the fingerboard, the body is not exactly huge. I've also seen theorboes with larger bodies with eight or nine frets on the fingerboard and around 120 cm.diapasons: large body, short neck extension. So my question is: which is more important to the production of a full, substantial theorbo sound...long playing length, or a large body? Or is it a combination of both? Another continuo question: is it appropriate to ornament the bass line? Either in basso continuo situations, or as part of the bass part of a Baroque lute piece? Thanks for your thoughts on this, David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Galant Continuo
Chris, When I lived in Portland, Oregon, in the mid-eighties I got immersed in the early music scene there. It was marvelous. I found myself on the board of the Portland Baroque Orchestra and was active with them even doing some t'bo playing. Also, I was part of a free form ensemble that had a regular gig at Powell's Book Store (a converted warehouse, 3 stories of used books and a great coffee room) where we played each Tuesday night. The flautist of that group - whose husband was the Poet Laureate of Oregon - and I did weddings, churches, wineries and some hippeoisie garden parties. I accompanied her by taking the sheet music and realizing the continuo on my kitchen table with tab. I could take my Lundberg ebony ivory t'bo to any park in the city, sit down and draw a small appreciative crowd just by playing. It seemed everyone not only knew what the instrument was - hey, that's the longest lute I've ever seen - and some even recognized the pieces. It was a great time. In 1989 I moved to Louisville, Kentucky. Culture shock is too gentle a word for what I found. Early music there means bluegrass played before noon. Shortly after I arrived, I took my t'bo and went to a nice park in a lovely little college not far from my house. It was a fresh spring day and I set up on a stone bench and started playing. The reaction could not have been greater if I had just stepped from a flying saucer. All I got was stares that said what a bozo and one comment, Damn man, that there is the biggest taterbug mandolin I done ever seen. I think he was one of the professors. If you live in a place where what you do is understood by 10% of the public and appreciated by 2%, revel in your time and treasure it. Now, in Cincinnati, there is at least some understanding if not overt interest. Luting is a lonely business. Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 5:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Galant Continuo Taco, My first response is usually an awkward silence. I'm not SURE if the person is joking and so I stand there with a dumb smile on my face for a moment. Then I think to myself Oh God, should I correct him/her? Is this person going to take it as an insult? Then I usually say something like, Um... its a little later than that, more of a late renaissance/early baroque thing... As you can tell, I've had this happen more than once. Usually I'm taken aback because I'm dealing with folks that I assume know a thing or two about music. (You know what happens when you assume...) Anybody have any good comebacks for this type of situation? Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lute cases
All, Some time back I brashly offered to build lute cases. Well, I was fairly deluged with enquiries, so many that I could spend some months building cases buy having no time for lutes. The empirical me says: Either the offer was much too cheap or, there are many who need a case or a better case. I withdrew from the offer with regret since everyone needs a decent case. However, as I assemble a case for a customer's lute, I had an idea, not quite a brain storm, more of a drizzle. For $20 USD I will supply drawings instructions (email or traditional) and a detailed material list for making your own lute case. The drawings are cad renditions in PDF format. The case fits most lutes with a mensur of 62 - 76cm. I have worked long to simplify my cases (I hate building the bloody things) to keep my time at a reasonable minimum whilst still providing a good, attractive and - most importantly - sturdy case. My case is built of items available from any woodworking shop (if not Lowes or Home Depot) with a quick trip to the fabric shop and I would include part numbers for the hardware. Tools required are a mechanized saw of some sort - table saw, saber saw (handheld) or band saw - appropriate screwdrivers, rasp and file along with the usual household tools (hammer-pliers-etc.) and a place to do it. The kitchen table will do. Materials will cost under $100 US and with a bit of scrounging, quite a bit less. It will take you a weekend or two to put a case together and it will work for all everyday protection and storage. For an additional $15 I will include plan modifications for outsized lutes or long neck/pegbox variants. They're all equally easy to build just a bit more awkward. This case, and mine, are NOT intended to thwart the airline gorillas. If anyone wants a case like that, it is much heavier and more expensive. In fact, to check your instrument as luggage it needs to meet the requirements of other delicate instruments (musical or scientific) for a travel container. I suggest an outer case for your usual case, either a purpose built sarcophagus case or an aluminum/wood/composite sipping trunk large enough to hold your lute case and with appropriate padding within. If there is any interest, you may contact me at this email address. I prefer payments by PayPal at robdorsey.com but a check is ok. The mailing address is at http://robdorsey.com/Lute_contact.htm . Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Galant Continuo
I would like to know the opinion of the educated many on this list of the article by Benjamin Narvey in the current LSA Quarterly entitled Galant Continuo: Towards an Informed Approach to Accompaniment in the Accord Nouveau. It is a good read and the idea is to me, being strictly a baroque lute player in Dm tuning, both logical and attractive. All of the continuo I have played has been in Dm but sometimes required that I transpose existing tab or realize my own. The argument that the chord shapes fall readily to hand is true in my admittedly one sided view. What is the group's read? Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Finishes
Dana, I use a couple of very thin coats of clear (as close as it gets) shellac for the belly followed by a light sanding with 600 paper once it is completely dry (over night). Then 6 or 7 coats of really good wax. I prefer the Renaissance Wax to simple bees wax (Bob Lundberg had a long and involved formula of which I've used some wax but never attempted myself). The belly remains quite bright and white, depending on the original wood, and is protected from moisture, finger prints (dirty pinky syndrome) and light bumps. At the very great risk of starting the foolishness up again, I would never use oil on any tone wood. I do use it, in the form of a polymerized oil varnish, on the neck and fingerboard. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 1:58 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Finishes On Sat, Sep 2, 2006, Rob Dorsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Hi Rebecca, I French polish my lute bodies. Note, he said bodies, not tops. Both top and the rest of the instrument want finish of some kind, but each part of the lute has somewhat different requirements of a finish. The top must remain musically responsive, a heavy finish would dampen the high frequencys and make the instrument sound dull. It is desirable to have some coating to keep dirt and skin-oils from staining and to allow cleaning with a damp top, but nothing more than that. Historical finishes for the top are conjectured at today, we can make pretty good guesses, but are not 100% certain cause it was a trade secret, and very few surviving instruments have tops that are original. Iconographical evidence suggests the color of the top was only slightly darkened by whatever was used; the egg-based finish used on contemporary paintings has been tried modernly - it has proven useful and satisfactory. A lute left out of its case atracts dust, it settles/gathers under the strings (most of the rest of the lute gets handled). Plain linseed or walnut will not fully dry to hard and it is most difficult to build up a filling finish with them. I use a polymerized oil varnish which dries relatively quickly and can be built up so as to fill grain. Note that Walnut, Linseed, and other natural oils were used historically for finishing all manner of wooden objects - spoons, tool handles, harpsichord keys. We have more practical alternatives today. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Finishes
Hi Rebecca, I French polish my lute bodies. I've tried other finishes but find the finish produced by polishing more durable, thinner, acoustically superior and prettier. The luthier may also incorporate dyes and coloring agents into the shellac of the polish. You may see the product of a just finished (either connotation) lute at http://robdorsey.com/instruments.htm . I use oil finish on the neck and fingerboard. Plain linseed or walnut will not fully dry to hard and it is most difficult to build up a filling finish with them. I use a polymerized oil varnish which dries relatively quickly and can be built up so as to fill grain. My suggestion is French polishing if your luthier knows how to apply it properly. It is very hard and strong, resisting scratches just as well as many sprayed finishes. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Rebecca Banks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 12:59 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Finishes September 2nd, 2006 Dear Lutenists: Thanks for the help with Fret type . . . what is your opinion of finishes on a Lute? Is it possible or historically correct to have a French polish? What is your opinion of oil varnish? I tend to be a little hard on my guitar with the occasional bump, I think the high polish saves it from a baneful existence. Thanks for any advice, Sincerely, Rebecca Banks Tea at Tympani Lane Records www.tympanilanerecords.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] 9 frets?????
All, A question to the corpus intelligentia. I put usually put 9 frets on my baroque lutes, forgoing the 2 or three on the soundboard. They are fragile, always out of tune and, (here's the nut) to my knowledge completely unnecessary and unused in the baroque repertoire. Anybody know of a the 10th - 12th frets being used in any, even obscure, baroque tab?? Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] A new lute finished.
For anyone who might be tired of debating how a string vibrates or the proper thickness of frets, I've finished a new 13 crs baroque lute which is the star of a somewhat unusual photo suite showing the entire building process from first rib to the finished lute. I strung it up yesterday with a new set of strings from Olaf Chris Hendriksen and completed the adjustment of the nut and friction adjustment of the pegs this morning. It plays great but there's something odd that this esteemed body might be able to shed light on. The lute is a 70cm mensur (74 on the extension) instrument on a Frei body. The sound is remarkably similar, in fact almost identical, to my old 11 crs Frei which was the first full sized lute I built some 20 years ago. In fact they came off the same mold. It has the same thick textured tonal qualities and is remarkably loud (don't know how else to put it) and has good sustain making hammers something that need not be rushed and trills quite easy to sustain for a couple of beats. If interested, take a look of the building at http://RobDorsey.com/building.htm or the just pix of the instrument at http://RobDorsey.com/instruments.htm By the way, I took every lute around here (7 I think) and plucked the strings parallel to the soundboard and vertically to the board with the flesh of my finger, some nail and a plectrum. Now, I'm an old guy and half deaf from 37 years in the airline cockpit but I could discern absolutely no difference. No, that's too unscientific, the cube root of no difference. Sorry but I couldn't resist jumping into this one. Best Regards, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] A new lute finished.
For anyone who might be tired of debating how a string vibrates or the proper thickness of frets, I've finished a new 13 crs baroque lute which is the star of a somewhat unusual photo suite showing the entire building process from first rib to the finished lute. I strung it up yesterday with a new set of strings from Olaf Chris Hendriksen and completed the adjustment of the nut and friction adjustment of the pegs this morning. It plays great but there's something odd that this esteemed body might be able to shed light on. The lute is a 70cm mensur (74 on the extension) instrument on a Frei body. The sound is remarkably similar, in fact almost identical, to my old 11 crs Frei which was the first full sized lute I built some 20 years ago. In fact they came off the same mold. It has the same thick textured tonal qualities and is remarkably loud (don't know how else to put it) and has good sustain making hammers something that need not be rushed and trills quite easy to sustain for a couple of beats. If interested, take a look of the building at http://RobDorsey.com/building.htm or the just pix of the instrument at http://RobDorsey.com/instruments.htm By the way, I took every lute around here (7 I think) and plucked the strings parallel to the soundboard and vertically to the board with the flesh of my finger, some nail and a plectrum. Now, I'm an old guy and half deaf from 37 years in the airline cockpit but I could discern absolutely no difference. No, that's too unscientific, the cube root of no difference. Sorry but I couldn't resist jumping into this one. Best Regards, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute straps
Chris et al, I'm going to take a chance and cut to the chase. All arcane and archaic solutions aside, a good and wide guitar strap hanging from proper strap buttons at the end cap and under the extreme forward end of the body is a most secure and comfortable solution. I've tried lap chamois, ribbons, gut and string, all pale in comparison to a good strap. They are relatively inexpensive, most luthiers will put strap buttons on your lute for a reasonable charge and they are so solid that one can play standing as easily as sitting. I've stood behind a small consort and hammered away with my little 120 theorbo hanging from a strap with no problem. It also aids consistency in playing for a beginner in that it pulls the lute into a consistent position every time, regardless of what you are sitting on (park bench or soft sofa). Put strap buttons on your lute if it doesn't have them. If you don't have access to a luthier, you can order a couple of buttons from LMI (http://www.lmii.com ) or Stewart-MacDonald (http://www.stewmac.com) get out the old drill and put them in. A 1/4 (6mm) drill will probably get it (measure it before you drill). Wax the shaft, no glue is needed usually, and stick it in firmly. Of course, the button's shaft is usually built at a 1/30 taper like a peg so if you can get a peg reamer or an industrial reamer at or near 1/30 taper, it's infinitely better. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: d minor theorbo tuning
Henner and All, While this may not exactly answer your query, I have used my 76/120 theorbo in continuo playing and it is in normal Dm tuning. Due to the manageable string length of 76cm on the fingerboard re-entrant tuning was not required or desired. The instrument has double course for the first 6 and single strung basses thereafter. The 7th course is on the board and may be fingered but is a single string. Not being an ace at continuo, I've have muddled through by taking the score and tabbing out a suitable part for the Theorbo. This is cheating I know, but in my case, the better of all choices if the music was to be realized. As an adjunct, keeping the theorbo in Dm tuning makes for a spectacular instrument upon which to play solo music as well. Regards, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Dr. Henner Kahlert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 9:25 AM To: Baroquelute net Cc: Lutenet Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] d minor theorbo tuning Dear all, we know that German lutenists in the 18th century like Weiss an Baron played continuo on their theorbos in d-minor tuning too (cf. Ernst Gottlieb Baron, Historisch-Theoretisch und Practische Untersuchung des Instruments der Lauten, Nürnberg 1727 p. 131, who also wrote that their theorbos had double courses on the fingerboard, not with the basses). When using really big theorbos with a greater string length, e.g. 76 cm and more, not theorboed baroque lutes, I think they had to use a re-entrant tunig with at least the first course tunend in a lower octave. What do we know about the tuning of d-minor theorbos, which sources do exist? Henner -- Dr. Henner Kahlert In der Tasch 2a D 76227 Karlsruhe (Durlach) Tel. 0721-403353 Büro: Tel. 0721-23084 Fax 0721-20978 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hypothetical lute bldg question.
David, I agree with one exception. Most all builders use hide glue for the soundboard, since it is the most likely to be removed for repairs and yes, hide glue is strong and relatively easy to soften for opening the soundboard. However, many things cry out for other adhesives. I, for instance, use epoxy to attach the fingerboard and pegbox. After selecting a piece of wood for the neck core and testing it's moisture content for proper dryness, I see little sense in introducing water (hide glue and all the various resin glues are water based) into the wood at 4 places, the end grain of the neck-body juncture, the end grain of the pegbox attachment, the back of the neck with the veneer and the flat with the attachment of the fingerboard. In all, that's a lot of water to trowel onto the nice dry core. Also, I have had Gabon ebony, particularly the lovely flat black variety, warp under water based glue so badly that it bowed up at the edges and bent a clamp. Epoxy introduces no water into the wood, bonds with the high oil content woods perfectly and is invisible, having very much the color of hide glue (most people would think it is hide glue) and has, as its only detracting characteristic, that it was not available in the 17th century. From what I know, if it had been it would have been used extensively. They used hide glue (as well as rabbit, bone and fish glues) because that was all they had. So, hide glue is great stuff (although a true pain to use) and acoustically sound, however, I see no reason not to use modern adhesives where they are applicable and do not interfere with the historical viability of the instrument. The proof comes in how the lute matures and develops with playing. Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: LGS-Europe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 2:48 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hypothetical lute bldg question. Glue, even old fashioned hide glue, is wonderful stuff. Just think, Why the _even_ ? I should think hide glue superior because, if applied thinly, it established a true bond between the pieces of wood, so a perfect transmition of vibration. And lute makers using modern glues give the future repair men of their instruments a terribly hard time. Hide glue will dissolve using heat and water, modern glue will need brute force. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hypothetical lute bldg question.
David, Sorry but I fear that I must disagree with just about all of your points. 1. Hide glue still makes a layer as do all glues. Yes it dries hard and is acoustically viable but to what result. All glues have a layer separating the two wood structures, even if it is minute. I use hide glue on the soundboard strictly as an accommodation to future repairs. Otherwise I would use an PVAC resin glue for its greater strength and ease of use. Some of these PVAC glues dry every bit as hard as hide glue and just as brittle (LMI's white instrument makers glue) resulting in equal vibration transmittal but do not facilitate repairs as well as the traditional hide glue. 2. Please don't tell me that you really think that the glue used in a fingerboard affects the sound of the instrument. What about the pegbox joint, there's a real opportunity for sound influence...or the strap buttons? 3. The sound of the instrument, or any chordophone for that matter, is entirely the result of the vibrating soundboard and the air cavity over which it vibrates. A lute could be made of fiberglass and, with a well barred and thicknessed German Spruce soundboard, sound great. What the structures which surround the board are made of, much less the glue with which they are put together, do not contribute to the sound. They do affect the playability and structural robustness of the whole but it stops there. 4. I know of no modern maker who glues on the bridge of his lutes with hide glue. Virtually all use polyvinyl acetate resin glues of one kind or another to put down the bridge. Since the bridge to soundboard joint is arguably the only one that could have any affect on the sound of the instrument and ideally must transmit vibrations without absorption, it would seem to be the only place where the supposed advantages of hide glue would be required. However, to my knowledge, it is not used there by anyone. As Alice said, Curiouser and curiouser. Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: LGS-Europe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 12:27 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hypothetical lute bldg question. its only detracting characteristic, that it was not available in the 17th century. From what I know, if it had been it would have been used extensively. They used hide glue (as well as rabbit, bone and fish glues) because that was all they had. In HIP music making we try to avoid this way of reasoning. We try to find the answers with the same tools as the people who wrote and first played the music had. Small deviations from this practise tend to add up and in the end greatly influence our performance. It's a non-progressive way of looking at things, I know, a luxury we can afford ourselves to escape the modern world and hide in timeless beauty and useless folly, but nevertheless it has become some sort of standard (time to run away again!). Some luthiers follow this practise, to some extend, and they come up with interesting new insights that will help us, the players. But more practical: what is the influence on the sound of epoxy in a lute? For glueing the pips on the tuning pegs: nothing I suppose. But for glueing fingerboard to neck: something, I guess. Hide glue connects the wood to the wood, am I right? I always understood epoxy to connect itself (on both sides) to the wood, forming a thin film of expoxy between the two pieces of wood: easier than hide glue, because there the glue is absorbed by the wood, making it neccecary to make an absolutely fitting connection. So with hide glue the wood touches wood everywhere, making a perfect acoustic connection. But with epoxy there's something beteeen the pieces of wood: epoxy. What does that do with the acoustic connection of fingerboard to neck? I think the neck influences the sound of the lute: type of wood, density, such things. So how does epoxy change this, if it does at all? If I'm wrong in my assumptions and preconceptions about hide glue and epoxy, please correct me. But actually, to put it more simple: why change something so basic when the existing way was used with good succes for ages? My ideal is to play a lute as it came out of the workshop of a 16th or 17th century lute maker. I'm not interested in a lute with all the latest modern techology added. I'd be playing classical guitar, if that were my ambition. Or liuto forte (shudder). David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hypothetical lute bldg question.
Herbert, EK! Glue, even old fashioned hide glue, is wonderful stuff. Just think, there are 400 year old instruments tuned up to tension and being played! Move then to modern resin glues, Titebond, LMI white stuff or the truly remarkable T-88 epoxy and it only gets better. Any mechanical attachment method, screws, nails, et al, leave one...well, screwed. Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Herbert Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 1:37 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Hypothetical lute bldg question. How good a lute could a builder make using screws instead of glue? What aspects (tone, tuning stability, durability, ...) of the lute would be especially impacted? Would screws be easier than glue? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute cases
Other caveats include examining the padding to ascertain just where it bears on the instrument. As Herbert said, make certain that it is not pushing down too hard on the soundboard and that the pegbox rides free supported by the neck. I have examined one of the Pakistani cases and it had virtually NO padding at all, just some velour-like fabric. However, they could be modified into a passable case with the addition of some foam padding and better hardwear. Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Herbert Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:20 AM To: marigold castle Cc: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute cases I need to find a case for my daughter's lute. I know Kingman (sp?) is fabulous, but I'd like to find ... My understanding is that the pegbox should be free within the case, so that it bears no weight. You also want to be careful that the soundboard does not get mashed (eg, at the bridge). I typed lute case into Google and found at least a few plausible results. An inexpensive case might benefit from installation of a secure latch from the hardware store. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute cases
Wow, When will I learn to keep my keyboard shut? I will make cases for lutes carries a modifier. I will make cases for the lutes I make for $250. I'll also do it for others strictly on a time-available basis. If I'm busy, it could take 60 - 90 days to get one out of me. If I'm not busy, a week. It all depends on lutes but I'll build my lutes first and cases when I have time. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression (and I'm pretty certain I did based on the responses) but I didn't know there was such a demand out there for cases. Perhaps I should get a case guy in here but hate to let anyone else build stuff to go out with my name on it. These aren't Kingham cases but are nice enough considering what cases go through. They are hell for stout and the Rhino Liner coating is tough stuff, much better than Nauga-hide. Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 10:47 PM To: 'marigold castle'; 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute cases Michal, I will make cases for lutes at $250US for a normal lute (non-theorbo). Mine are made of aircraft ply, lined with foam and velvet and rather than fabric or vinyl, coated with Rhino-Liner coating in black or dark green. I'm doing one soon for a customer and will put up a picture when it's finished. I would need dimensions for the lute. Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: marigold castle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 5:37 PM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] lute cases I need to find a case for my daughter's lute. I know Kingman (sp?) is fabulous, but I'd like to find something a bit more economical. (I hate spending half as much as the instrument cost on the case.) Does anyone have any recommendations? Thanks. Michal - See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute cases
Michal, I will make cases for lutes at $250US for a normal lute (non-theorbo). Mine are made of aircraft ply, lined with foam and velvet and rather than fabric or vinyl, coated with Rhino-Liner coating in black or dark green. I'm doing one soon for a customer and will put up a picture when it's finished. I would need dimensions for the lute. Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: marigold castle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 5:37 PM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] lute cases I need to find a case for my daughter's lute. I know Kingman (sp?) is fabulous, but I'd like to find something a bit more economical. (I hate spending half as much as the instrument cost on the case.) Does anyone have any recommendations? Thanks. Michal - See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: String Pitch
Bob, Good points all. Of course early musicians or builders didn't refer to pitch in Hz. I merely remember reading (perhaps from DAS) that pitch was very fluid and is estimated to have varied by the amounts I quoted. My playing in ensemble is quite dated being 20 years ago or so and what's available in contemporary wind instruments for early music is not something with which I have stayed current. A couple of years ago I sold a nice boxwood baroque oboe by Michael Seiford - 415 of course - on eBay to a woman in NY who seemed thrilled to acquire it so I probably decided that they were hard to find. Recorders I am more in tune with (sorry couldn't resist) since I play. My consort is at 415. Basically, as you know, A396, 415 and 440 are about a half step apart. When I put new stings on my lutes I use a little toy electric piano for the pitches and tune e, c#, b# for Dm tuning in 415. I wonder if this arrangement was intentional or happenstance. Thanks for the corrections, I agree with all, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Robert Clair [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 9:35 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: String Pitch The pitch was all over the place as indicated by contemporary texts being as low as A-329 and as high as A-460. Could you provide an example contemporary text that specifies the pitch in Hertz (I'll settle for cycles per second since it seems Mr. Hertz didn't get around to being born until 1847) ? Most assessments of historical pitch are made on the basis of surviving organs and woodwind instruments. A large number of surviving 16th C. woodwinds play at roughly 1/2 step above modern pitch (~ A460). There are current day ensembles that play at high pitch (due in significant part to Mr. Bob Marvin who makes superb copies of 16th C recorders and refuses to make them at A440). There are also written and pictorial accounts of lutes playing ensemble music with winds that are probably at high pitch. This of, course, says nothing about whether they were transposing at sight or considered their lute to be at some other pitch than G. 415 recorders, oboes, et al are getting harder to fin a Uhhh. Have you tried looking at the lists of serious woodwind makers (ie. individual builders, not Moeck, etc.)? I think you would find it hard to find a professional/serious amateur oboist, bassoonist, etc who would spend even a second considering an A440 instrument. Recorders are a different matter because of the large number of not so serious amateurs, but most good builders offer mainly low pitch instruments with a token modern pitch model or two. ..Bob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: String Pitch
Howard, With all respect, how do you know these things? Rob Dorsey -Original Message- From: Howard Posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 12:52 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: String Pitch Rob Dorsey wrote: Historical lute pitch varied throughout the instruments reign with the principal pitches being, in an overly simplified listing, A-396 (Renaissance), A-415 (Baroque) and A-440 (Classical/Modern. Not just oversimplified, but somewhat misleading inasmuch as it implies a steady rising of pitch over time and ignores regional variations that were much more significant. We know that pitch in parts of Northern Italy circa 1600 was around A=460, pitch in France in 1700 was around A=392, pitch in Handel's London was around A=410, and there were two pitches in Bach's Leipzig: low chamber pitch to accomodate the French-built oboes, bassoons and flutes, and church pitch a whole tone higher. In the later 19th century, the London Philharmonic played somewhere in the 450's. Was it Mersenne who said there were five different semitones in Italy? i.e. five different basic pitches from the low-pitched cities of the south to the high-pitched northern cities, amounting to a difference of a major third between Naples or Rome and Mantua or Venice. This, BTW, likely explains why the Roman Buchenburg's theorbos are so much larger than the theorbos of the Venetian Raillich. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: String Pitch
Hi Steve, I'll throw in for the good of perhaps starting a discussion since that seems to be one of my greater talents. Historical lute pitch varied throughout the instruments reign with the principal pitches being, in an overly simplified listing, A-396 (Renaissance), A-415 (Baroque) and A-440 (Classical/Modern. I say overly simplified because we: 1. Don't know completely know what pitch was used by the majority of players in various eras; 2. We don't know for sure at what pitch many of the greatest period players played when not accompanying fixed pitch instruments; and 3. The pitch was all over the place as indicated by contemporary texts being as low as A-329 and as high as A-460. There are normally a couple of reasons to pick a pitch for your lute other than to simply doggedly adhere to presumed historical accuracy. One is to make it sound the best with the strings currently installed (which can be changed which is perhaps the greatest affect the owner can have on the sound of his instrument) or, and most often, to accompany fixed pitch instruments like recorders or the obstreperous vocalist. Your reason is the third, that the instrument just won't hold the pitch desired due to structural or functional problems. Basically, if you are not playing with fixed pitch instruments (had to string my Dm Theorbo lute so that I could easily move it from A415 to 440 at the gig since 415 recorders, oboes, et al are getting harder to fin and I have a lovely consort of Merck rosewood recorders in 415 which have been regularly borrowed by professional players for 415-only gigs) then, what the hey? Tune it where it sounds best and holds tension. Bye the way, I applaud your choice of nylon or synthetic strings over gut. I have 4 lutes sitting in my music room, all up to tension and ready to play. Pick one up, even after a week, and only minor tweaking is needed for proper intonation and, on a couple of them the strings are almost 20 years old! Best, Let the Flames Begin, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://robdorsey.com/ http://RobDorsey.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Dearest Martyn, My dear fellow, I fear that we disagree on so many points that this forum fails to provide sufficient room or expediency to carry on the debate. I'm sure Mr. Van Edwards is a wonderful builder and having reflected on his advice I'm equally sure that someone has misunderstood him, in whole or in part. I'm quite certain in saying that no responsible maker would introduce oil into the tone wood. As for empirical evidence, over the years I/we have experimented with just about every varnish or coating imaginable on lutes (spirit varnishes, oil varnishes of the violin type, waxes and even bloody sprayed NC lacquer) so my opinions are base on direct observations, not whimsy. And, please don't assume that we don't know what stand oil is over here. We paint as well. To perhaps facilitate a conciliation, however, I did just read of a practice of putting a bit, a teeny, tiny bit, of proper stand oil (the real kind, linseed, walnut oil or such which has been exposed to the air and allowed to thicken whilst being regularly stirred to preclude formation of a skin) into the beeswax-turpentine paste used to wax the soundboard in order to color it and provide a bit of elasticity. This I have not experimented with but will do. I fear however, that what the soundboard least needs is elasticity. It wants protection of its light and brittle structure for brightness and projection, depending of course on the historical period of the instrument and style of playing. Remember, our lute tops are but 1.8mm in thickness at the thickest part and approach 1mm (the thickness of a halfpenny) at the thin parts. It takes little soaking to permeate the wood. In all, it sounds interesting and I'll make up a test batch and report to this forum on the findings although I'm skeptical of the results. As I said previously, I'll build 'em my way, you build 'em yours and we'll let the players decide. Right now I've got to go down and build a peg box and put some lovely thin shellac on a soundboard. All the Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com _ From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:31 AM To: Rob Dorsey; Lute Net Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) Dear Rob, Thank you again fr ths. Having pondered your views, I think you misunderstand the nature of Stand Oil: being so extremely viscous it does not penetrate the wood to any significant degree. Indeed, its characteristics are closer to a stiff varnish (be it oil or the spirirt based as you prefer to use) than to a low viscosity oil such as tool oil which may, indeed, soak into spruce to some depth (wether that is a good or bad thing is a different matter and needs some verifiable research). From your response I take it that you have not, in fact, tried proper Stand Oil; perhaps you might care experiment on off-cuts. Nonwithstanding the above, an earlier email mentions that David Van Edwards suggests using oil on bellies and, since he is widely recognised as being one of the finest lute makers around today, you may also care to reflect on this advice.. Linseed Oil has an ancient history of widespread use in painting, wood finishing and varnishes (including instrument varnishes) and was readily available to the Old Ones. Regarding spirit based finishes which you prefer to use, you may be aware that they have been castigated at various times for putting a hard and stiff coating onto instruments' bellies and stifling the sound. In fact, I know of no proper research which supports this view but neither of any which supports your own position of the superiority of spririt based coatings to oil based. rgds MH Rob Dorsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Martyn, I hate to be redundant all over again but, in my humble opinion (my wife cautions me against that phrase owing that she reckons I've never had a humble opinion) no oil of any kind should be used on the soundboard of a lute, period, full stop, poink! Only nothing, a practical inconvenience because you can't keep the board clean, or pure light shellac, seals the wood and dries glass hard, or wax, issuing either from the bee or the wily carnauba which I am made to understand is devilishly difficult to catch. Again, in great fear of ranting (another of my bride's accusations) I will reiterate ad nauseum, NO OIL ON THE SOUNDBOARD. As for others who counsel oil I'm afraid that if God himself told me to put an oil varnish on a lute belly, I'd reckon him wrong, gently forect him (he's...you know...after all) and hope I didn't get transformed into a newt for my arrogance. Oil and spruce, or cedar or redwood for that matter, don' mix unless you plan to live in it or sit on it. Thus endeth the rant, for the moment, Rob Dorsey http://robdorsey.com http://robdorsey.com/ _ From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 1:18 AM To: Rob Dorsey; Lute Net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Hi Martyn, I hate to be redundant all over again but, in my humble opinion (my wife cautions me against that phrase owing that she reckons I've never had a humble opinion) no oil of any kind should be used on the soundboard of a lute, period, full stop, poink! Only nothing, a practical inconvenience because you can't keep the board clean, or pure light shellac, seals the wood and dries glass hard, or wax, issuing either from the bee or the wily carnauba which I am made to understand is devilishly difficult to catch. Again, in great fear of ranting (another of my bride's accusations) I will reiterate ad nauseum, NO OIL ON THE SOUNDBOARD. As for others who counsel oil I'm afraid that if God himself told me to put an oil varnish on a lute belly, I'd reckon him wrong, gently forect him (he's...you know...after all) and hope I didn't get transformed into a newt for my arrogance. Oil and spruce, or cedar or redwood for that matter, don' mix unless you plan to live in it or sit on it. Thus endeth the rant, for the moment, Rob Dorsey http://robdorsey.com _ From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 1:18 AM To: Rob Dorsey; Lute Net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) True Stand Oil is extremely thick and viscous (rather like treacle) and hardens as a surface film rather than 'soaking into the wood'. It is applied with a stiff rubber and cannot be 'painted' on. Have you any experience of it? There is evidence that some violins (eg Joseph Michelmas ' Violin Varnish' et alia) were given a ground coat which was allowed to harden prior to varnishing. MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
All, I truly hate to muddy this arcane thread with an opinion but I would strongly counsel against introducing oil of any kind into the soundboard. The cellular and resin characteristics of something as fragile as spruce are substantially and irrevocably altered by introducing oils into the grain. And, it will soak in and permeate the structure, forever altering the soundboard. That is, you cannot get it out once it's in. Water or alcohol based coatings, like spirit varnish or plain shellac, remain brittle and hard so they are acoustically viable in a vibrating system. Wax, likewise, is hard and only microns thick, imparting little to the sound of the board. Oil, that's a different matter and I would not recommend that anyone introduce it into their soundboard without a lot of soul searching and sound research. Sorry to so strongly opine but I felt that, in this casem a gram of intervention was worth a kilo of cure. Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Ron, With all respect, that premise could not be more wrongheaded and I shudder to think of such soundboards. Oil is the enemy of spruce. The early violin makers who used an oil varnish invariably did so after applying a sealer of egg white or shellac. They used an oil based varnish only because of availability. I use an oil varnish, a simple drying oil based on linseed, walnut or such, only on the ebony or rosewood surfaces. I would never, never, use oil on the delicate and fragile surface of the speaking parts of the lute. These need the sealing power and acoustic properties of a hard and thin non-penetrating coating like shellac or wax. In short, oil and spruce do not mix. While I am a lute heretic and often advocate alternate and modern methods on this list, some things are beyond alteration. I'm sure that an oil varnish, lovingly applied LOOKS great but the alteration and damage to the sound of the soundboard are immense. I would hasten to dissuade anyone from such a practice. Cutting to the chase, you make'em your way and I'll make'em mine. See you at the recompense. Passion is the stuff life is made of, what, what? Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Ron Fletcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 6:44 PM To: 'Rob Dorsey' Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) Hi Rob, Several readers on this list have made their own lutes with guidance from David van Edwards. I am fairly sure he advocated the use of Danish Oil to seal the soundboard. Lightly rubbed over with a soft cloth. I think applying it this way is not going to saturate the fibres of the whole thickness of the soundboard. It dries like a very thin varnish. This is quite easily available in UK DIY stores. I think there was mention of it being called something else in the US, or an ingredient of it. China/Japanese Nut Oil? - I will have to look on the tin next time I go into my garage! Best Wishes Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Bruce, First, I'm a bit surprised that the soundboard had no finish. Lots of the historical instruments had a finish on the board to preclude handling stains and what we hope was wine/beer damage. However, the fix for yours is probably what most historical instruments in fact had, simple bees wax. Go to any art store and buy a small block of pure beeswax. Put it in a container and cover it with turpentine. In a day or so it will dissolve the wax into a creamy paste the color and constancy of whipped honey. Wipe the belly first with a cloth dampened in turpentine and try to clean up the oil stains and let it dry. Then, put a nice coat of the wax on the whole belly surface, buffing it out with a soft cloth immediately. No need to wait for it to dry. Repeat this about 4 times and you will have a fairly shiny coating that will resist your dirtiest hands. If it does discolor, just wipe the area with turpentine again and re-apply the wax. The paste has a shelf life measured in decades and is the best wax I've used. It rivals the product Renaissance Wax which is a bit better for cleaning and waxing the whole lute. This stuff is best for bare wood protection. Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Bruce O. Bowes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 8:20 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Protecting the unfinished top (table) Can anybody give me information on what and how this should be done. The raw wood is already becoming stained from the oils in my hand and arm. The lute is a Pakistani lute so we are not talking about a very fine or delicate instrument. The sound board is not the finest spruce either. Thank you. Bruce -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: LUTE] tying gut frets
Near as I can tell the direct translation is rubber lacquer. But in the text of some explanations it refers to rubber lacquer for French polish. This leads me to believe the term refers to plain shellac since rubber in this instance means lacquer for the rubber of the French polishing, not the latex material. One man's opinion, I could be wrong, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://robdorsey.com -Original Message- From: Manolo Laguillo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 5:36 AM To: LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: LUTE] tying gut frets Hello, Let me share with you a trick related with this topic, which I learned last week, when I visited Jaume Bosser, a luthier who lives 1 hour away from Barcelona. I went to have him build a new fretnut for my viola da mano, because I wanted different distances between the courses, and once there I took profit from his experience, and asked him to change all the frets... Now here is the trick: after fastening the gut tightly around the neck, the luthier pushes the fret downwards using a piece of wood on which he applies force with a hammer. Simple, but effective! In other words, he does not push with the fingernails. Another trick, as a bonus. Prior to making the knot, he applies a 10% solution of 'goma laca' (sorry, I don't know the word in english) to the gut, and so it becomes a little bit sticky (the knot holds better) and at the same is better protected against wear. Saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Humidity and the pegbox.
All, It is conceivable that swelling due to humidity could cause a crack but not too likely. It depends on the type of woods used and whether the finish satisfactorily seals the wood. I laminate the cheeks of my peg boxes for strength and stability and seal my pegs with one wash of shellac followed by a beeswax polish. I've noted no problems due to humidity. If, perhaps, you had the lute living out of the case in Taos and moved to New Orleans you might see evidence of swelling but it would probably take extremes like that to get noticed. One way to preclude problems is to have the pegs working well with a minimum of stickiness. To control my pegs I've developed a process (no huge secret here so don't get excited) of waxing the pegs with a beeswax compound (beeswax dissolved/softened in turpentine), polishing them well and then applying a coating of Ivory soap to the bearing surface. Pure wax is sticky, but secure. Pure soap is like grease and won't hold tension. Since my peg holes are burnished (I take a special European pearwood peg shaft made for the purpose made so as to allow it to be chucked in the hand drill and then turn it in the holes to polish the surfaces) I wax the pegs then soap them and trial and error balance the two until I get a machine like peg action. If it's too slick, a damp cloth will wipe off some of the soap. If it's too sticky, add more soap. I've tried the so-called dopes with wax and graphite (quite messy and ugly) and find that a lightly varnished peg polished up with beeswax and soap eventually gives the best action. Got a beautiful, highly figured maple (outrageous fiddleback wood) 13crs baroque lute in build for a client in Texas. It's a 70/80 cm instrument on a Frei body. I'm putting up pix of the build on my site at http://RobDorsey.com/building.htm and will continue to put up pictures of each phase until done. He has been kind enough to allow me to take it to the LSA Festival if it's finished in time. I'd love for one of the greats to plunk on it. It's one man's opinion, I could be wrong, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Edward Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 11:19 PM To: Herbert Ward; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Humidity and the pegbox. In my experience, I have never cracked a pegbox from humidity, but I notice, with no exception, that the pegs do get tighter in the summer, and are more difficult to turn due to the swelling of the wood. So, it is a good idea to ease them out in the summer for easier tuning. ed To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Nice Veheula for sale
All, Again, sorry to bother with something so mercantile but there have been numerous inquiries on the Veheula offered so it is more efficient to answer on the list rather than a lot of emails. 1. The mensur is 66cm. 2. On tuning, the instrument has 6 double courses. I'm not into veheula so have not paid much attention to the tuning. I've been told that many tune it like a 6 crs lute and play the lute tab directly on it while other tunings are listed online which show a sort of re-entrant tuning. Also, it is easy to confuse the historical Veheula with the Viheula which is apparently used by Mariachi bands. There's lots of articles on that instrument and, being unfamiliar with it, I don't know how much relevance there is to the historical instrument. 3. The soundboard looks to be spruce but one question whether it is cedar is interesting. On examination it does have a slight reddish tint which I took to be age and a light blond shellac. So, rather than standing firm and being wrong, the soundboard is either German Spruce with a light blond varnish aged, or, it is cedar (hopefully Spanish) with little or no finish other than wax. Regardless, the board sounds very nice. I've corrected the web page to reflect the string length, thanks for your patience: http://robdorsey.com/forsale.htm Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Gregory C Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 8:17 AM To: Rob Dorsey Subject: Re: [LUTE] Nice Veheula for sale Rob, Could you tell me what the string-length is? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Nice Veheula for sale
Hi All, So sorry to bother the list with this but I have a very nice Veheula that is redundant to my inventory that I have decided to sell. It is by either David or Daniel Warwick [spelling?]. It's been a while since I acquired it (like 20 years) so memory does not serve. Anyway, it is one of 5 instruments built in an experiment on veheula body depth and the depth varies greatly on historical instruments. This was, I seem to remember, the 4th in the series and has a fairly deep body. I understand that the most shallow was like 6 cm deep. This one has a great, lute-like tone and easy playability. You can see it at http://www.robdorsey.com/forsale.htm Again, sorry to bother with this but I don't play veheula and it is a spectacular instrument that should be in a veheula picker's hands. Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA http://RobDorsey.com http://robdorsey.com/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: LSA Lute Festival 2006 in Cleveland
All, It sounds like a great experience but I have a few questions. Do most attendees stay in the dorm? I cannot imagine Cleveland in June without air-conditioning. That brings a dorm room to $600 for the 6 days, add 400 in tuition and it's a grand not counting lunch and beers. That's a pretty expensive week. That begs the question, in the mind of those who have attended previously, is it worth it? I've got chips flying trying to get a 13 course baroque instrument finished to take for the tasting. Will I be allowed to put it in? Is it mostly a renaissance festival? I see a couple of baroque players (Satoh, Barto) so it must have a fair and balanced baroque presence. Is that a good assessment? I've had a master class with Satoh before so I know it's most worthwhile. Will there be baroque folk for the private lessons? So many questions, so little money, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Sean Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:39 PM To: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: LSA Lute Festival 2006 in Cleveland Sounds like a good line-up to me: got the early and late covered, the long-time players, the johnny-come-latelys, serious big names, great teachers and some seriously above-average concerts from names you've always wondered about. Then there's the other folks who show up: folks who ask good questions in class, folks who've tried that string set-up you were going to, folks who scoot over and invite you over to their table, folks w/ a 'this' lute or a 'his' lute, folks w/ a cool duet, folks selling facsimiles, mod eds and cds, folks w/ edifying stories, awful jokes and dubious tuning tricks. Folks definitely getting the lute thing for a week. Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Material costs?
All, Ok, from an amateur maker who just turned full time, here's what I figure on an instrument. Example: A 13 crs baroque lute on a Dieffopruchar body (~ $472 in USD) * 11 ribs of nicely flamed maple ($50) * black spacers ($5) * poplar neck core with ebony veneer ($10) * beech or boxwood pegbox, ebony veneered ($25) * cherry pegs ($20) * ebony fingerboard ($35) * Master grade German Spruce jumbo top ($120) * bone nut ($5) * European pear bridge, ebony topped ($10) * Rosewood strap buttons ($12) * nylgut and overspun strings ($180) This instrument would take about 150 hrs to make (rose cutting is time consuming, making the bass rider/treble rider, etc.) At even a finish carpenters wage of $25 per hour that's $3,750 in skilled labor or $4,222 for a fair price (You may notice that this is amazingly close to what the name makers are asking for the same instrument). Damned few makers are able to demand that kind of price. My price on this instrument would be $2,500 or so. That makes I earn about $13.50 per hour for the job, about what I could make at the tool shed in Home Depot. If you build, it is for a reason other than money unless you have established a name. Hope this helps, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER
Juan, I too love this piece and work at it constantly. I'm not certain whether the tab I have is the JD Forget version but I don't remember needing to stop the 10th crs. However, as a maker, I can tell you pretty certainly that, of the lutes used in baroque, probably only the so called French 11 crs instruments allow fingering that course. I daily play a 14 crs theorbo (76/140cm in dm tuning) which only has 7 courses on the fingerboard and a 13 crs after Dieffopruchar/Edlinger which has enough neck cant to the bass side to also preclude such fingering or at least make it rediculously difficult. Mr. Barto is probably just correcting the tab (I've learned to do all my transcriptions and original ms in pencil to allow for the inevitable corrections)in the interest of rational playability. Surely, an instrument could be built to accommodate that fingering, but it would be non-standard if there is such a thing. My suggestion is, modify the fingering and bass placement as needed to produce playability. Heretical as that may sound, it is the music that emanates which counts, not dogmatic adherence to an archaic tablature or style. One man's opinion. I could be wrong, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: Juan Fco. Prieto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 6:33 AM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER Dear lute friends: Excuse me in case I'm boring you with too much newcomer questions, probably over-answered in the past. Well, let's go to the matter. It's said all around that the ideal lute to play S.L. Weiss is the know as swan neck or theorboed model and, really, the most of the recordings published till now are related to lutenists performing on a swan neck baroque lute. I'm now studying the Prelude from the Suite in d minor (Dresden Manuscript, Volume 1, Suite n. 7, in the Jean-Daniel Forget public domain edition), one of the best Weiss preludes, for my taste, -extraordinarily well performed by Robert Barto (Sonatas vol. 3 track 14)- and I'm realising that Mr. Barto raises one octave up some basses that demand to be played e.g. on the first fret of the 10th course (Eb). I'm sure the reason is he's playing on a swan neck preventing him to play these notes as originally were written. My personal question now is whether this point is showing that Weiss composed this piece -and many others, probably- with a simple bass rider baroque lute in mind, and not a theorboed one. What do you think about? Always giving thanks for your tolerance and kindness. -- Juan Fco. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER
Juan, One sort of correction. Many 13 crs instruments are merely augmentations of 11 crs instruments. Therefore, it's as easy to fret the 10 (or even 11th) crs on them as it is on the French 11crs. My point was that many builders did not seek that to be a requisite and even if the instrument allows such fretting, it's bloody difficult and not probably not good arrangement. Best, Rob Dorsey -Original Message- From: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 11:27 AM To: 'Juan Fco. Prieto'; 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER Juan, I too love this piece and work at it constantly. I'm not certain whether the tab I have is the JD Forget version but I don't remember needing to stop the 10th crs. However, as a maker, I can tell you pretty certainly that, of the lutes used in baroque, probably only the so called French 11 crs instruments allow fingering that course. I daily play a 14 crs theorbo (76/140cm in dm tuning) which only has 7 courses on the fingerboard and a 13 crs after Dieffopruchar/Edlinger which has enough neck cant to the bass side to also preclude such fingering or at least make it rediculously difficult. Mr. Barto is probably just correcting the tab (I've learned to do all my transcriptions and original ms in pencil to allow for the inevitable corrections)in the interest of rational playability. Surely, an instrument could be built to accommodate that fingering, but it would be non-standard if there is such a thing. My suggestion is, modify the fingering and bass placement as needed to produce playability. Heretical as that may sound, it is the music that emanates which counts, not dogmatic adherence to an archaic tablature or style. One man's opinion. I could be wrong, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: Juan Fco. Prieto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 6:33 AM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] SWAN NECK vs. BASS RIDER Dear lute friends: Excuse me in case I'm boring you with too much newcomer questions, probably over-answered in the past. Well, let's go to the matter. It's said all around that the ideal lute to play S.L. Weiss is the know as swan neck or theorboed model and, really, the most of the recordings published till now are related to lutenists performing on a swan neck baroque lute. I'm now studying the Prelude from the Suite in d minor (Dresden Manuscript, Volume 1, Suite n. 7, in the Jean-Daniel Forget public domain edition), one of the best Weiss preludes, for my taste, -extraordinarily well performed by Robert Barto (Sonatas vol. 3 track 14)- and I'm realising that Mr. Barto raises one octave up some basses that demand to be played e.g. on the first fret of the 10th course (Eb). I'm sure the reason is he's playing on a swan neck preventing him to play these notes as originally were written. My personal question now is whether this point is showing that Weiss composed this piece -and many others, probably- with a simple bass rider baroque lute in mind, and not a theorboed one. What do you think about? Always giving thanks for your tolerance and kindness. -- Juan Fco. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Memorization
On memorization: The Chinese pianist Liu Chi Kung was imprisoned by the Maoists for 7 years after the cultural revolution. During his imprisonment he had no access to a piano but, since the guards held him is some regard, was granted a cell with a window. After his release he, like so many of China's intelligentsia, departed for Taiwan and after only about a month played a concert with the symphony there. When asked how he accomplished such a feat, considering the lack of practice for 7 years, he replied that he had actually practiced daily. During meditation periods he would pull his chair up to the windowsill and close his eyes, imagining the keyboard before him. He would then play his entire memorized repertoire on the windowsill, hearing the notes in the ear of his mind. That constant visualization and reinforcement of the intellectual and muscle memory allowed him to get into performance shape in record time. I've always been a good memorizer and a poor sight reader (one probably affecting the other) and in high school band always had all the parts memorized in short order. In Texas, if you're in the band, you play at football games (a pervert in Texas is defined as someone who likes sex better than football) and one must march with the band at the halftime show. I remember many poor fellows marching around reading the little sheet music on a lyre before their eyes, sometimes smashing into each other in the process. Being a poor sight reader, I have most things memorized by the time I get the fingering and positions worked out and the piece up to speed. In recital, I usually have the music before me as a place to stare so as not to be so aware of the audience. I suffer from almost debilitating stage fright and it seems to help, a placebo security blanket. Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: Doctor Oakroot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:39 AM To: Roman Turovsky Cc: Doctor Oakroot; Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute straps In an orchestra the players are acting as a sequencer and their job is to reproduce the written music accurately. The musical value comes from the conductor - who usually has the score in front of him, but, if he's any good, he doesn't actually need it. That's why experiments with conductorless orchestras are generally flops. And, no, blues isn't memorized - it's created during the performance... a whole different art. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute straps
Sorry but I gotta weigh in with an anecdote. In the late sixties I was a music major at the University of Texas and was desperately trying to play cello in the school orchestra. Bloody awful but I was game. Anyway, a friend (a rather good oboe player who often gigged with the Dallas Symphony) introduced me to a cellist who had a Strad cello, the real thing. It was in pretty good shape for a 400 year old working instrument and the conversion to classical pitch, done in the 18th century, was most competent. The guy was so generous he let me play it, as best I could. On examining the instrument I was struck by an odd repair on the back. There, nicely grain matched to look just like the flamed maple of the back, was a repair of a knot hole of an odd shape. It was about 2 round at the bottom and perhaps 1 wide at the top, sort of an inverted pear shape. On inquiry I was told that it was used for marching. The player wore a leather belt with a brass knob on the front which was inserted into the larger portion of the pear shaped hole and then lodged in the upper, smaller portion of the hole. The player could then march along playing his cello. Sometime in the 19th century it was deemed redundant and a repair effected. So, Strad presumably made marching celli. How's that for a strap? Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: Katherine Davies [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 3:10 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute straps I think this is the article: Robert Spencer 'How to Hold a Lute: Historical Evidence from Paintings', Early Music, Vol. 3, No. 4. (Oct., 1975), pp. 352-354. Thanks to everyone who has replied with such useful information! Katherine Davies To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: videos deleted playing with straps
Thomas, Fortunately, I both enjoyed your videos and captured them to file. I am always respectful of anyone who plays and is willing to play before others. And, you play better than me. I have used the copied videos to check out your fingering on certain chords and passages. There is not enough of this about and you are to be commended. As regards playing with straps, how could anyone play otherwise? I just finished an extensive rebuild/repair of an 11 crs baroque lute this morning in my shop and sat down to play it as soon as the instrument came up to tension. I haven't installed the strap buttons as yet so I had to hold it in the conventional manner. Frankly, it's like trying to hug a greased fish. I play only baroque lute but use straps always. Besides, it's fun to stroll about the house playing. It must entertain the neighbors immensely. Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: Thomas Schall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 12:46 PM To: 'Juan Fco.'; 'lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: videos deleted Similar to my son - but he knows who is threatening with punishment and doesn't take it serious. Seems I have done something wrong :-) It's so smoothing that other parents have the same experience than I have. All the best Thomas To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: roses
Bill, While the outsourcing of rose cutting is certainly arguable as an option for the historical maker, the design of the rose had more to do with the period and attendant style than the maker himself. Numerous variations on the knot of Leonardo, Celtic themes in medieval and early renaissance lutes, included hearts in renaissance and early baroque chittarone and the lovely floriated and vine entangled versions of those (amongst my favorites, difficult to cut but worth it) abound. Whether it was the taste of the client (as is usually the case now) or the limited offerings of the maker (pick one will'ya?) the design probably had more to do with taste than trademark. I try to stay to four or five designs, choosing to get as good as I can on what I know, rather than flailing about attempting to learn a new cut on somebody else's lute. In short, like skydiving, I hate doing anything I have to do exactly right the first time. Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: bill kilpatrick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 2:50 AM To: lute list Subject: [LUTE] roses do rose designs indicate who made an instrument - are certain designs associated with specific luthiers? - bill early music charango ... http://groups.google.com/group/charango ___ Switch an email account to Yahoo! Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: HBO Movie Elizabeth I, P.S.
It was bloody marvelous! Some scenes look like Holbein stills, the darkened scenes moved from candle light to candle light. This imparted an element of realism that was pervasive. Dame Helen aged to match the dying EIs 68 summers and Essex was the snot I always imagined. One scene showed two courtesans playing what looked like a lyra da gamba and ?. Irons made a good Leicester but was more masculine than the period illustrations would suggest. But, in all a triumph. Saw it on HBO, will buy the DVDs. Rob Dorsey, luthier Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: bill kilpatrick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 7:23 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Caroline Usher Subject: [LUTE] Re: HBO Movie Elizabeth I, P.S. there was the most amazing interview with shekhar kapur - director of elizabeth I - on bbc world service the other day in which he says - amongst many highly astute and very interesting observations of a more modern nature - that elizabeth was a spin doctor supreme - founded the british empire as a consequence. so ... leicester, dudley, walsingham et al. whispering to her behind the curtains - so to speak - is probably not too far removed from the realms of possibility. haven't seen the helen mirren series yet (my 80 year-old mother just wrote to say how much she loved it) but i'll be very disappointed if they don't have her leaping about in part II with some grandee or other doing her galliard to the lute accompaniment of dowland-by-actor. - bill early music charango ... http://groups.google.com/group/charango ___ NEW - Yahoo! 360 - Your one place to blog, create, publish and share! http://uk.360.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Robert Lundberg Theorbo
All, Sorry to share something so trivial but I was just going through my copy of Robert Lundberg's wonderful book Historical Lute Construction and found something which gave me pause. I was lucky enough to study lute making with Bob during the mid-eighties and during that time I had him build me two lutes, a 13 crs Dieffenbrucher style baroque lute and a 74/140cm theorbo lute, for Dm tuning, spectacularly constructed of ebony and ivory (fellow greenies don't despair, it's all certified, CITES legal ivory) both of which I play today. In the introduction and QA section prior to the first lesson, on page xii, is Bob futzing with my theorbo, incorrectly called a chittarone by the writer. He mentions that I brought it over to Bob's house whilst he was there and I played it for him. In the brief account he waxes poetic about the sound of the instrument. He kindly did not mention my playing. It's a kick to see one's instrument, now standing proudly in my music room, in such a fine and well done volume. Regards, Rob Dorsey, Luthier Florence, KY USA -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 1733 ebay lute for a mere ...
Yes, curiouser and curiouser as Alice said. Rob Dorsey, Luthier Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: Ed Durbrow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 2:38 AM To: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Re: 1733 ebay lute for a mere ... On Apr 8, 2006, at 1:25 AM, Caroline Usher wrote: At 12:01 PM 4/7/2006, Rob Dorsey wrote: It is interesting, however, that a piece of paper glued above the label (a rib seam tape?) is what appears to be early tablature. The scrap of paper above the label looks like black notation to me, not tablature. Caroline I agree. What are the chances of using paper from a couple of centuries earlier for lute lining? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 1733 ebay lute for a mere ...
All, I have brightened, enhanced and enlarged the pictures and made them available at http://RobDorsey.com/Lutes/Hoffmann.htm . My comments are at the bottom of that page. If interested, take a look and draw your own conclusions. Best, Rob Dorsey, Luthier Florence, KY To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Predicting quality during construction.
Herbert, The answer is, Yes. Experience and empirical knowledge can do much to guarantee the outcome of any new instrument construction but there are so many tiny variables, wood variances board to board, tree to tree, differences in the applied technique of the builder, yadda yadda, which all lend a hand in the finished sound. Taken that a lute, or any other hand made instrument, is the product of nature's materials and a builder's skill, then clearly no two are exactly alike. If a client says, for instance, that they want a dark and mellow instrument then there are things which one's experience may indicate would contribute to that sound. Or, if a player wants a more strident voice to his lute there may be changes in the barring that could bring out or enhance that attribute. But, considering that, for many lute clients, the requirement for prettiness and fit and finish hold great importance (nobody wants to pay a heap of bread for an ugly lute), achieving a particular voice for the instrument sometimes seems to take a back seat. Moral: the prettiest lute is not always the best lute and plain or unadorned instruments are not always cheap student models. It may be that the client chose to put the money in the sound rather than the visuals. Likewise a gorgeous lute may be a real dud to play, hard of action and with a dull or tubby sound. That's why when a truly great builder, like the late Robert Lundberg, can deliver it all, their instruments are prized indeed. It's something to which the rest of us mere mortals may only aspire. Instruments from factories with careful QC processes come close to exact and continuous replication but one Martin D28 is not like all D28s. In the end, a lute is organic and is the sum of its parts, wood, love and skill plus a little varnish. The excellent builder makes each one a gem, possessing its own character and voice. It's one of the magical elements of lutherie. Sorry for all the waxing, Rob Dorsey, Luthier Florence, KY -Original Message- From: Herbert Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 8:24 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Predicting quality during construction. To what extent is the quality of a lute unknown and unpredictable during its construction? In other words, is there a moment of truth when the new lute is strung up and played for the first time? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Nigel North on CGA!
Alain, An interesting linguistic semblance but, if I remember correctly, the artistic renderings of the kithara are of a lyre like instrument, held in front of the player and plucked or strummed. Here's the story as I understand it: The Moors were kind enough to bring el oud to Spain, once those pesky Romans were through with it, from whence it crept across the Pyrenees into the waiting arms of the medieval Europeans. Being such as they were, they just had to corrupt the name into le oud..l'oud..l'out..lout..(where upon the dreaded and brutish English language is applied) and hence...lute. (or laute or liuto, yadda yadda) Irregardless - which is like REALLY, REALLY regardless - all of our myriad instruments of the lute family came from the oud. But, while our instrument basically died around 1800, the middle-eastern cultures have preserved the oud's popularity and oud playing figures strongly in currently popular music. To us on this list, we take considerable pride of artistic accomplishment in resurrecting and maintaining an arcane and ancient music form. With middle easterners, it's just what's on the radio. One man's opinion, I could be wrong, Rob Dorsey, Luthier Florence, KY -Original Message- From: Alain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 2:52 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nigel North on CGA! Some pretty good music from Kurdistan : http://www.issahassan.com/musique/chahnazeen5.mp3 . I am not a specialist but it sounds to me like the guy knows what he is doing. Could the Iranian tar be the origin of the Greek khitarra? Maybe with the same phonetic absorption of the leading article, like el oud becoming lute or luth? Alain To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Grain texture on soundboard.
Herbert, The easy answer is, yes. It can be due to either one or both of those things. You did not mention the species of the wood so I will imagine that it is spruce of some kind. The grain lines in quarter sawn spruce for a soundboard, or any wood for that matter, are annual annular (not a repeat) rings. The darker lines differ in density from the lighter areas between the lines. This is due to the changes brought about by the seasons. If the soundboard is too roughly sanded (I don't sand a soundboard, I plane and scrape only, even for final finishing) it can erode the softer material in the lighter streaks more than the more dense lines, resulting in what I call cupping of the surface. Also, in some species harvested and sawn in high humidity (the Pacific Northwest) the area between the annular lines tends to shrink more than the harder lines, likewise producing a cupping. However, if the soundboard is truly seasoned, dried properly and long, and then planed to within .5mm of thickness and carefully scraped the rest of the way, the cupping should not be present since the scraper removes the wood over a defined area regardless of its density. I have a theory (having one for almost any occasion) that really old soundboard tonewood does get more stable and better with time, if it has lots of it. Spruce and other tonewoods contain small amounts of volatile resins which, with long storage at the proper humidity, will gas off the volatile materials within the individual cells of the wood, producing a brighter and more acoustic material, sort of a super wood if you will, harder and more tonal at a molecular level. Sorry for the digressions. It's one man's opinion, I could be wrong. Best, Rob Dorsey, Luthier Florence, KY -Original Message- From: Herbert Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 10:54 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Grain texture on soundboard. In some areas of my soundboard the grain of the wood can be felt as slighly raised ridges. In other areas, the grain, though visually apparent, cannot be felt. Is this discrepancy due to an inherent difference in the wood, or is it due to the manner in which the lute was built? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Luthiers (wood)
Dana, Other than the obvious need to age wood sufficiently to stabilize the moisture content throughout the piece, the debate on aging of tonewoods can be a heated one. I have a couple of soundboard sets that are over 40 years old. They have been stored correctly and are in great shape. Even though I'm not sure of the aging issue, I would not build an instrument from them except for myself. Selfish? Yep, but they are irreplaceable. For others I'll use newer soundboard halves available to the trade. Mostly it is important that anything under varnish is well seasoned. Seasoned in this case means that the wood has completely stabilized in moisture content and that those included resins which improve with oxidation have reached their peak. This can take a bit of time. Not having the equipment to analyze my meager stocks, I like wood to be a couple of years in my shop, or on a trustworthy suppliers rack, before I feel really great about it. Like I said before, I hate cracks. Best, Rob Dorsey Florence, KY USA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 3:41 PM To: lute list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Luthiers Rebecca asks about luthier practice regarding wood aging. This holds for most workers in wood I suspect, not just instrument makers. Wood goes thru subtle changes over several years of climactic changes, it is good to store wood for several seasons against future need, but, only some of the wood used in an instrument actually benefits from prolonged ageing. There are limits to how many instruments a luthier can produce each year, so its not all that hard to plan ahead and stock the wood, but financing it could be a burden, and if demand grows you have to make a choice - stockpile orders, hire and train, out-source some of the work (eg - pegs, pegboxes, neckblanks) to somehow provide enough wood for an expanded workforce, while at the same time recruiting and paying the extra help. If your building exceeds yoru wood supply you have to somehow arrange for suitable wood. Thankfully there are firms that carry aged wood, albeit at a price. Dealers in 'tone wood' will have highly figured and otherwise interesting wood, some is recently kiln-dried, other will have been air-drying for a decade or longer. Sometimes you come across wood that is special, perhaps a tree locally felled by Hurricane or Tornado, perhaps some highly figured wood seen at a local lumberyard, perhaps your share of an estate. Such wood sits quietly in the attic/garage/odd corner awaiting that special project. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Heretical Thinking vis a vis Lutes
on the extension), 120-140 theorbo or a renaissance base lute. Being retired and not a terribly mercantile person to begin with, I prefer to build what pleases me and in which I believe. Ok, let me have it. Regardless of your outrage, you must concede that I've admitted these things freely. They say that's the first step toward recovery. Best Regards Rob Dorsey Florence, KY USA -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] New to the List
Hi All, My name is Rob Dorsey and I am a long time amateur instrument maker who is now retired from the day job and building full time. I play baroque lute and so my interest is mostly there although I have built renaissance lutes, an early mandolin (lute bodied mandola) a couple of vihuelas and a gamba or two. I had the great fortune of knowing Robert Lundberg and studying lute making with him for 5 years, off and on, when I lived in Portland during the eighties. Bob was a good friend and the most generous of teachers, never making the lesson seem like one but as if, rather, we were just working together on a project. I came away from that experience with some great tools, techniques that I've seen no reason to change so far, and an appreciation for Bob's organized work style. Bob was the master at that. His hands never moved unless something wonderful was about to happen. When we first began the tuition my first lesson was cleaning up the shop. After each session in his shop I was expected to stay until the place looked like no instruments had ever been built there. Bob was a very organized and neat guy. I'm not so organized or so neat but I keep trying. He set the bar high. Since then I've built instruments for myself and done some repair for friends, mostly on guitars which, compared to lutes, is, with all due respect, more like furniture repair. I have two lutes Bob built for me, a 13 crs Dieffopruchar style at 76cm and a 140/76cm Edlinger style theorbo. This theorbo is perhaps one of Bob's most spectacular instruments and we collaborated on the design. It is in ebony with ivory spacers, inlays and ivory pegs, all pre-moratorium and CITES legal stuff. I've been away from the lute scene for a while due to work (I've finished a 35 year career as an airline pilot) and am now re-immersed. I'm looking forward to being able to build and play without time constraints. In playing I like the late baroque, the Weiss of course and Gaultier, Conradi, some transcriptions I've done of Couperin, Les Barricades Mysterieux to mention one, and of course Johnny Bach. I also enjoy writing my own pieces for the baroque lute based on the period dance sonata structure. I got to do some ensemble work with a small group out in Portland and got to play my Theorbo in the St. Mathew Passion, realizing the basso continuo, with the Portland Baroque Orchestra. While I'm quite certain that no one could hear me even with a baroque orchestra on original instruments (A415 of course) I cheated and took the score home and wrote out a tab for the basso and played it the same every time, something that the conductor caught on to and gently chided me about. I couldn't tell him that it was the only way to overcome immense stage fright and be able to play it at all. Who did he think I was, Nigel North?? I also have an 11 crs baroque lute, a small lute bodied mandola, a small Medici arche-lute and a 120/71cm Hoffmann extension pegbox lute all from my bench. Projects in work are a 13 crs, Edlinger bodied lute at 74cm and a 13crs experimental lute on a Dieffopruchar/Edlinger shell, 65cm on fingerboard and an extension for the 7-14th courses. It'll be braced and hard fretted (metal) to accept single strings. It's meant for guitar players who want to play the vast corpus of Dm tuning tab without fully transitioning to baroque lute, something to which they seem to have an almost pathological aversion. Hope this doesn't smack of heresy and provoke cries of somebody get a rope but it looks like a worthwhile endeavour. If it works I'll try to sell some. Best Regards, Rob Dorsey Florence, KY USA -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] New to the List
Hi All, My name is Rob Dorsey and I am a long time amateur instrument maker who is now retired from the day job and building full time. I play baroque lute and so my interest is mostly there although I have built renaissance lutes, an early mandolin (lute bodied mandola) a couple of vihuelas and a gamba or two. I had the great fortune of knowing Robert Lundberg and studying lute making with him for 5 years, off and on, when I lived in Portland during the eighties. Bob was a good friend and the most generous of teachers, never making the lesson seem like one but as if, rather, we were just working together on a project. I came away from that experience with some great tools, techniques that I've seen no reason to change so far, and an appreciation for Bob's organized work style. Bob was the master at that. His hands never moved unless something wonderful was about to happen. Since then I've built lutes for myself and done some repair for friends, mostly on guitars which, compared to lutes, is, with all due respect, more like furniture restoration. I have two lutes Bob built for me, a 13 crs Dieffopruchar style at 76cm and a 140/76cm Edlinger style theorbo. This theorbo is perhaps one of Bob's most spectacular instruments and we collaborated on the design. It is in ebony with ivory spacers, inlays and ivory pegs, all pre-moratorium and CITES legal stuff. I also have an 11 crs baroque lute, a small lute bodied mandola, a small Medici arche-lute and a 120/71cm Hoffmann extension pegbox lute all from my bench. Projects in work are a 13 crs, Edlinger bodied lute at 74cm and a 14crs experimental lute on a Dieffopruchar/Edlinger shell, 65cm on fingerboard and an extension for the 7-14th courses. It'll be braced and hard fretted to accept single strings. It's meant for guitar players who want to play the vast corpus of Dm tuning tab without fully transitioning to baroque lute, something to which they seem to have an almost pathological aversion. Hope this doesn't smack of heresy and provoke cries of somebody get a rope but it looks like a worthwhile endeavour. If it works I'll try to sell some. Right now I'm looking for lute pegs. If I can't find a reasonable source (the ones I found on the web were in England and were about 6 bucks each, over there) I'll have to tool up to do them myself. I had a big collection of pegs I came away from Bob's shop with (I spent many hours at his little lathe making them) but I've used them up. If anyone has a link or address for reasonable pegs I would appreciate some direction. Best Regards, Rob Dorsey Florence, KY USA -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
