[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-fil é
Le 4 juin 08 à 10:40, Martin Shepherd a écrit : Dear All, Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) says: "Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the lightest colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea-water, of Red the Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet." At this point he is talking about strings in general, not just bass strings, so it seems that all kinds of strings were made in different colours. I assume he recommends the lightest colours because a dark colour would make it harder to assess the quality of the string, but he doesn't say so explicitly. Martin I have a brown Venice which is just as good as the lighter yellow one. I actually prefer it for the appearance, but not the sound. It is true that colour is not a proof alone of anything. Indeed, loading can also result in various colours, but it sounds unlikely that this is exactly what Dowland is speaking about here. Nevertheless, this does seem to imply that string makers were experimenting in dyeing strings, and if that is so it is even more likely that they would have thought of using recipes designed, by the dyeing trade, for leathers, and these certainly did include dyeing with oxides (a form of loading), even if it might not have been called so. As I said previously, the leather dyeing trade in Italy (where these recipes were definitely applied) was situated in the same region from where the centre of the powerful string guild was situated (whose tentacles were to spread to Munich, to Spain, to Lyons and even Paris). If the string makers were trying out the various effects of dyeing strings, it seems probable that they would have tried these out. If they liked the effect they would have commercialized them. That does not necessarily mean that they did. However, Mace, in his time, does say that Pistoys dyed red, are the best. He could just be partial to the colour (I do like the appearance of those red strings), but it seems more likely that the effect the dyeing process had on these strings was what made him prefer them. As red dye on leather, was at that time brought about by a metal salt, it is at least plausible that an oxide was involved. I do agree that we can't just choose to give importance to Mace, and just to ignore Dowland, just because the one seems to confirm what we are looking for; but there may not be such a contradiction, if we consider that there was a period of intense experimentation in colouring processes on strings, but that the results initially, were not all particularly significant. Confronted with the variable results of these experiments, Dowland might have adopted the practical method of choice that you are suggesting, for the reason you suggest. However, string colour is not the main argument in favour of the existence of loading, although, it is perhaps the most attractive, as you can hope to actually see the trace of them in a painting, especially if they all happen to be bass register strings. It is, indeed, striking when you see the colour of a loaded string so like that of a string in a painting. However, a more conclusive proof, other than finding a "fossilized" loaded string, would perhaps be finding details about a stock of red oxide, in the inventory of a string maker's atelier. Anthony Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-fil é
Le 3 juin 08 à 16:32, howard posner a écrit : On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:24 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... -- But surely a harpist, can look at the strings, that is more difficult for a lutist? It could be that those top strings had undergone some special treatment, which still might not be loading, but that is pure speculation on my part. It could also be a whim of the painter, looking for some sort of symmetry with the basses, or a string maker could have become famous for his red basses, and be cashing in on that fact tby dyeing other strings red. That does of course mean that just the fact that some strings are coloured, does not form a sufficient argument in favour of the loaded gut string hypothesis (loading could exist that gives no colour whatsoever, or a yellow colour, indistinguishable from gut). The fact that these red or brown strings are frequently the basses that you would need to load today, is a small argument in that direction, but it is the accumulation of such arguments, in which no one is conclusive, that may lead us to prefer this hypothesis, to the alternatives, which I have discussed, particularly when we consider the existence of short Baroque lutes with very small bridge holes. Nevertheless, the other alternatives, as Martyn has said (low tension strings, and toroidal ropes), should not be brushed aside without due consideration. Please note that when I say, "should not be brushed aside", I am only talking about hypothese on historical strings. Even if we were to prove that one hypothesis was far weaker than the others, it does not necessarily mean that soundwise the solution is bad. Both Charles Besnainou and I think Satoh, have two-headed 14 course lutes. Perhaps, these did exist, but Charles told me he built his as an interesting experiment with no particular thought to authenticity. They may still be able to play superb music on these, by getting the maximum out of the strings they each prefer. I think there is an argument in favour of trying to rediscover the sound structures (string types, lute shapes, etc) around which a particular lute piece might have been constructed, especially when we are talking about a composer whose compositions search out the full potential a particular technology can produce, but that does not exclude other aproaches to the same material, including clever use of metal-wound basses, and lute shapes which allow the performer to acheive more with pure gut than perhaps any historical performer managed to do. I don't see anything wrong in that per se. Different approaches to the music are going to lead to less uniformity, and hopefully more interesting performances. Anthony Le 3 juin 08 à 16:32, howard posner a écrit : On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:24 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-fil é
Matthias This whole thread about the 12c lute interests many of us for a number of reasons. However, just for the moment, let us stay with this question of the strings on the Mest lute. I am not sure whether I have completely grasped your remarks about the demi-file strings. On the Kenneth Sparr pages, I read: "On the inside of the back is a printed label: 'Raphael Mest in Fiessen, Imperato / del Misier Michael Hartung in Pa- / dua me fecit, Anno 1633'. " I am not certain whether we should assume it was in its 12c form at that date, but there is certainly no reason to consider it was baroqued after 1700. In which case, I would not like to assume that the demi-file are the strings that were originally used on that lute. I am not sure if that was what you were suggesting Mathias, but demi-file are only mentioned after 1650, and don't seem to have caught on until about 1700, or later. On the other hand, the basses on the Mest lute are quite short for a 12c lute, not more than 71mm. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? PID=348 As Rob Mackillop found on his 69mm Maler, pure gut basses of that sort of length are very thick, and do present serious "intonation" problems with the octave strings and with the trebles. It seems more likely to me that the Mest lute would have had loaded strings, initially, as the colour of these strings seem to indicate for this other 12c lute, shown on the Aquila pages you mention: http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg but when this technology was replaced by demi-file, and the loaded strings worn out, the owner at that time could have changed to demi- file, as certainly pure gut strings would not have been ideal. Some other 12c lutes, such as the Wolf, have up to 80mm (see K. Sp.), and some possibly more. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? PIDF7 These models with very long basses could have been more suitable for pure gut, or for lesser quality loaded strings, although they could also have been developed for more sustain with loaded strings (depending on whether the musicans who chose to play the 12c instrument, revelled in the strong basses that the French Baroque musicians seem to have spurned, keeping, in some cases, only "the small eleventh", Burwell). Indeed, Stephen Gottlieb tells me that this Mest lute-type is not really successful when strung with pure gut (although this may not be just due to the relatively short basses); and he has preferred to construct a lute with basses up to 80mm, probably so as to have strong, but not over thick, Pistoy basses, but in this case with a stoppable string length of about 67mm. This "composite" lute was based on the Rauwolf body, and the peg-box arrangement of a Dutch painting in Glasgow, see the photos here: http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A1849 On the other hand, I very much doubt whether such a lute would be successful with full wire-wounds, as the basses would then become far too thin. I have no idea how demi-file would be on Stephen's lute. One possibility, is that the 12c lute (with long basses) remained popular in England and Holland, just because good loaded strings were not readily available in these countries. Another possibility is simply that the taste for French music under the influence of The French English Queen, Henrietta-Maria, was rather conservative, and that a fashion created in France (according to the author of Burwell), but later spurned, was carried on in England and Holland. In England this was certainly true for the Carolean Masque, which carried on the, by then, decadent French Masque form, "Le Ballet =E0 Entree", in which the Queen had performed herself, in her youth in France. We must remember that the Queen surrounded herself with French musicians, including Jacques Gaultier, who may or may not have been the inventor of the 12c lute, but certainly played one, and was influential in its diffusion. http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A112 It is possible that Jacques' name became so strongly associated with this lute-type that its invention was attributed to him (Burwell), but it in the prgramme for the Masque "Britannia Trumphans", in 1637, he is described as "maker of lutes for masques", so he could have been more directly involved in its creation. http://tinyurl.com/2kcpcg We may also note that he seems to have been an acquaintance of Mace, whose "Monument" gives a large place to the 12c lute, and we learn from an anecdote recounted by Mace, that if the 12c lute was spurned in France, Jacques, may well have derided the new fashion for old Bologna lutes, if we imagine the scene related here by Mace: " There are diversities of Mens Names in Lutes; but the Chief Name we most esteem, is Laux Maller, (...) Two of which Lutes I have seen (pittifull Old,Batter'd, Crac
