[LUTE] Re: Help requested !

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Got it !!! Thank you so much Arthur Ness !!!

Best wishes to all,
Jean-Marie


Le 13/06/2020 à 13:13, Jean-Marie Poirier a écrit :
I would be very grateful if a good soul among you all could send me 
(private mail of course)  a pdf copy of :


Philip Van Wilder, "Si vous voulez", chanson à 5.




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Help me please!!!

[Nicolau Espinosa]

   Dear Edward,
   I refer specifically to a kind of letter "t" that appears under a
   vertical chord of Am A (5) -E (4) -C · (3), and also to a kind of
   accent sign that sometimes indicates above and times down ...
   The piece is a Chaconne, La Montespan.
   Thanks for your kindness.

   Missatge de Edward Martin <[1]edvihuel...@gmail.com> del dia dv., 24 de
   gen. 2020 a les 14:09:

Dear Nicolau,
Your link did not come through at all (this list does not permit
attachments), so I cannot see the piece in question.However,
 I
suspect you are referring to an image of a piece from the
 Manuscrit
Barbe, Res. Vmb.ms.7 in Paris, ca 1690.The collection of
 pieces have
many red ciphers, which are various fingering suggestions and
 phrase
markings.It is a beautiful collection.
Best,
Ed Martin
On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 6:16 AM Nicolau Espinosa
<[1][2]nicolau.espin...@gmail.com> wrote:
  --4ef8f8059ce1b8b9
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
  Please ask the llaut Baroque sonadors for help ... would
 someone
  please
  explain to me the meaning of the symbols marked in red ink in
 the
  attached
  photograph?
  It is a piece by J.Gallot.
  Thank you very much and a hug to all.
  --
  Nicolau Espinosa
  --4ef8f8059ce1b8b9
  Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
  Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  Please ask the llaut Baroque sonadors for help
 ...
  would someone please explain to me the meaning of the symbols
 marked
  in red ink in the attached photograph?It is a piece by
  J.Gallot.Thank you very much and a hug to all.-- Nicolau Espinosa
 
  
 
  --4ef8f8059ce1b8b9--
  --
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [2][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
 References
1. mailto:[4]nicolau.espin...@gmail.com
2. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

   Nicolau Espinosa


   --

References

   1. mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:nicolau.espin...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. mailto:nicolau.espin...@gmail.com
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help finding a painting

[David Morales]

   Great! Thanks for your quick answer.
   Regards

   El 3 ene. 2017 10:14 a. m., "Matthew Daillie"
   <[1]dail...@club-internet.fr> escribió:

 The liner notes of Paul O'Dette's CD specify that it is the Portrait
 of a Young Man with a Lute which is in the Wallace collection in
 London:
 [2]http://www.artuk.org/discover/artworks/portrait-of-a-young-
 man-with-a-lute-209577#
 Best,
 Matthew

   > On Jan 3, 2017, at 2:06, David Morales
   <[3]dmorale...@cuerdaspulsadas.com> wrote:
   >
   >Dear list,
   >Could anybody help me finding an original painting / artist?
   >The painting appears on two excellent recordings:
   >  * Christopher Wilson ââ Fantasia de Mon Triste
   >  * Paul O'Dette -Molinaro: Fantasie, Canzoni e Balli
   >
   >[1][4]http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/136/
   2234136.jpg
   >
   >[2][5]http://direct-ns.rhap.com/imageserver/v2/albums/Alb.
   20699900/images/
   >500x500.jpg
   >
   >Thanks.
   >--
   >Cuerdas Pulsadas
   >[3][6]www.cuerdaspulsadas.com || [4][7]h...@cuerdaspulsadas.com
   >[5]BLOG || [6]AGENDA || [7]TIMELINE
   >
   > [8]blog [9]facebook [10]twitter [11]instagram
   >
   >--
   >
   > References
   >
   >1. [8]http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/136/
   2234136.jpg
   >2. [9]http://direct-ns.rhap.com/imageserver/v2/albums/Alb.
   20699900/images/500x500.jpg
   >3. [10]http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/
   >4. mailto:[11]h...@cuerdaspulsadas.com
   >5. [12]http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog
   >6. [13]http://cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog/agenda/
   >7. [14]http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/timeline
   >8. [15]http://.cuerdaspulsadas.com/blog
   >9. [16]http://www.facebook.com/cuerdaspulsadas
   >   10. [17]http://www.twitter.com/cuerdaspulsadas
   >   11. [18]http://www.instagram.com/cuerdaspulsadas
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
   2. 
http://www.artuk.org/discover/artworks/portrait-of-a-young-man-with-a-lute-209577
   3. mailto:dmorale...@cuerdaspulsadas.com
   4. http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/136/2234136.jpg
   5. http://direct-ns.rhap.com/imageserver/v2/albums/Alb.20699900/images/
   6. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/
   7. mailto:h...@cuerdaspulsadas.com
   8. http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/136/2234136.jpg
   9. 
http://direct-ns.rhap.com/imageserver/v2/albums/Alb.20699900/images/500x500.jpg
  10. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/
  11. mailto:h...@cuerdaspulsadas.com
  12. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog
  13. http://cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog/agenda/
  14. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/timeline
  15. http://.cuerdaspulsadas.com/blog
  16. http://www.facebook.com/cuerdaspulsadas
  17. http://www.twitter.com/cuerdaspulsadas
  18. http://www.instagram.com/cuerdaspulsadas
  19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help finding a painting

[Matthew Daillie]

The liner notes of Paul O'Dette's CD specify that it is the Portrait of a Young 
Man with a Lute which is in the Wallace collection in London:

http://www.artuk.org/discover/artworks/portrait-of-a-young-man-with-a-lute-209577#

Best,
Matthew

> On Jan 3, 2017, at 2:06, David Morales  wrote:
> 
>   Dear list,
>   Could anybody help me finding an original painting / artist?
>   The painting appears on two excellent recordings:
> * Christopher Wilson ââ Fantasia de Mon Triste
> * Paul O'Dette -   Molinaro: Fantasie, Canzoni e Balli
> 
>   [1]http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/136/2234136.jpg
> 
>   [2]http://direct-ns.rhap.com/imageserver/v2/albums/Alb.20699900/images/
>   500x500.jpg
> 
>   Thanks.
>   --
>   Cuerdas Pulsadas
>   [3]www.cuerdaspulsadas.com || [4]h...@cuerdaspulsadas.com
>   [5]BLOG || [6]AGENDA || [7]TIMELINE
> 
>[8]blog [9]facebook [10]twitter [11]instagram
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/136/2234136.jpg
>   2. 
> http://direct-ns.rhap.com/imageserver/v2/albums/Alb.20699900/images/500x500.jpg
>   3. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/
>   4. mailto:h...@cuerdaspulsadas.com
>   5. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog
>   6. http://cuerdaspulsadas.es/blog/agenda/
>   7. http://www.cuerdaspulsadas.com/timeline
>   8. http://.cuerdaspulsadas.com/blog
>   9. http://www.facebook.com/cuerdaspulsadas
>  10. http://www.twitter.com/cuerdaspulsadas
>  11. http://www.instagram.com/cuerdaspulsadas
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help with finding music

[Peter Kwasniewski]

   Thank you. That's fascinating!
   I have contacted Caius Hera.

   On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:49 PM, AJN <[1]arthurjn...@verizon.net>
   wrote:

   Diamandi, Saviana, et al., *Codex Caioni saeculi XVII*, Musicalia
   Danubiana, [vols.], 14/A, 14/B* & 14/B** (Budapest, 1994).
   This is an edition of a keyboard tablature compiled by the Translvanian
   Franciscan monk Joannis Caioni (d. 1687).   It contains sacred works,
   but much secular music, as well, including dances, such as your
   Heyduckentanz. He was also a folklorist. Caioni appears to have been
   revered, and for safekeeping his manuscript was buried for centuries as
   a holy relic in the walls of the monastery.   Excavated in 1988!
   I own volume 2 part 1 (14/B*), but have never been able to get vol. 2
   (14/B**), or vol. 1 (14A).   The first volume has the facsimile, the
   second volumes have the table of contents and transcriptions.
   In a quick look, I couldn't find the dance you want. Better would for
   you to order it on ILL so you have the entire package.

   Music from the codex is very popular in Romania.--Arthur
   On 11/27/15, Peter
   Kwasniewski<[2]peter.kwasniew...@wyomingcatholiccollege.com> wrote:

   I'm trying to find the following sheet music in tablature?
   Canaries 1 & 2 from the Straloch lute book
   Heyduck Dance from the Codex Kajoni
   Thanks for any help!
   --
   Peter A. Kwasniewski
   Wyoming Catholic College
   306 Main Street, Lander, WY 82520
   College offices: [3](307) 332-2930
   My direct line: [4](307) 335-4418
   Websites:
   [1]Wyoming Catholic College
   [2]The Aquinas Institute
   [3]Catholic Social Teaching
   [4]Sacred Music
   --
   References
   1. [5]http://www.wyomingcatholiccollege.com/
   2. [6]http://www.theaquinasinstitute.org/
   3. [7]http://www.thomasstorck.org/
   4. [8]http://www.ccwatershed.org/kwasniewski
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --
   Peter A. Kwasniewski
   Wyoming Catholic College
   306 Main Street, Lander, WY 82520
   College offices: (307) 332-2930
   My direct line: (307) 335-4418
   Websites:
   [10]Wyoming Catholic College
   [11]The Aquinas Institute
   [12]Catholic Social Teaching
   [13]Sacred Music

   --

References

   1. mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net
   2. mailto:peter.kwasniew...@wyomingcatholiccollege.com
   3. tel:%28307%29%20332-2930
   4. tel:%28307%29%20335-4418
   5. http://www.wyomingcatholiccollege.com/
   6. http://www.theaquinasinstitute.org/
   7. http://www.thomasstorck.org/
   8. http://www.ccwatershed.org/kwasniewski
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/
  10. http://www.wyomingcatholiccollege.com/
  11. http://www.theaquinasinstitute.org/
  12. http://www.thomasstorck.org/
  13. http://www.ccwatershed.org/kwasniewski

[LUTE] Re: Help with finding music

[AJN]

   Diamandi, Saviana, et al., *Codex Caioni saeculi XVII*, Musicalia
   Danubiana, [vols.], 14/A, 14/B* & 14/B** (Budapest, 1994).
   This is an edition of a keyboard tablature compiled by the Translvanian
   Franciscan monk Joannis Caioni (d. 1687).  It contains sacred works,
   but much secular music, as well, including dances, such as your
   Heyduckentanz. He was also a folklorist. Caioni appears to have been
   revered, and for safekeeping his manuscript was buried for centuries as
   a holy relic in the walls of the monastery.  Excavated in 1988!
   I own volume 2 part 1 (14/B*), but have never been able to get vol. 2
   (14/B**), or vol. 1 (14A).  The first volume has the facsimile, the
   second volumes have the table of contents and transcriptions.
   In a quick look, I couldn't find the dance you want. Better would for
   you to order it on ILL so you have the entire package.

   Music from the codex is very popular in Romania.--Arthur
   On 11/27/15, Peter
   Kwasniewski wrote:

   I'm trying to find the following sheet music in tablature?
   Canaries 1 & 2 from the Straloch lute book
   Heyduck Dance from the Codex Kajoni
   Thanks for any help!
   --
   Peter A. Kwasniewski
   Wyoming Catholic College
   306 Main Street, Lander, WY 82520
   College offices: (307) 332-2930
   My direct line: (307) 335-4418
   Websites:
   [1]Wyoming Catholic College
   [2]The Aquinas Institute
   [3]Catholic Social Teaching
   [4]Sacred Music
   --
   References
   1. [1]http://www.wyomingcatholiccollege.com/
   2. [2]http://www.theaquinasinstitute.org/
   3. [3]http://www.thomasstorck.org/
   4. [4]http://www.ccwatershed.org/kwasniewski
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

References

   1. http://www.wyomingcatholiccollege.com/
   2. http://www.theaquinasinstitute.org/
   3. http://www.thomasstorck.org/
   4. http://www.ccwatershed.org/kwasniewski
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/

[LUTE] Re: Help with finding music

[Geoff Gaherty]

On 2015-11-27 1:42 PM, Nancy Carlin wrote:

Ronn McFarlane has Canaries from Straloch in his Mel Bay edition The
Scottish Lute page 12 and 13. In addition to this edition he has
another called The Highland King - both available on the Mel Bay web
site.


The tab for the first volume at least is actually available free on the 
Mel Bay site as a PDF.  This is a wonderful resource, lovely music, easy 
to play.


Geoff

--
Geoff Gaherty
Foxmead Observatory
Coldwater, Ontario, Canada
http://www.gaherty.ca
http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help with finding music

[Nancy Carlin]

   Ronn McFarlane has Canaries from Straloch in his Mel Bay edition The
   Scottish Lute page 12 and 13. In addition to this edition he has
   another called The Highland King - both available on the Mel Bay web
   site.  John Robinson has also tab for a lot of Canaries in one of the
   supplements to Lute News - you can get these from the Lute Society
   (England)'s web site.
   Nancy

   I'm trying to find the following sheet music in tablature?
   Canaries 1 & 2 from the Straloch lute book
   Heyduck Dance from the Codex Kajoni
   Thanks for any help!
   --
   Peter A. Kwasniewski
   Wyoming Catholic College
   306 Main Street, Lander, WY 82520
   College offices: (307) 332-2930
   My direct line: (307) 335-4418
   Websites:
   [1]Wyoming Catholic College
   [2]The Aquinas Institute
   [3]Catholic Social Teaching
   [4]Sacred Music

   --

References

   1. [1]http://www.wyomingcatholiccollege.com/
   2. [2]http://www.theaquinasinstitute.org/
   3. [3]http://www.thomasstorck.org/
   4. [4]http://www.ccwatershed.org/kwasniewski


To get on or off this list see list information at
[5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--
Nancy Carlin
Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
[6]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

PO Box 6499
Concord, CA 94524
USA
925 / 686-5800

[7]www.groundsanddivisions.info
[8]www.nancycarlinassociates.com

   --

References

   1. http://www.wyomingcatholiccollege.com/
   2. http://www.theaquinasinstitute.org/
   3. http://www.thomasstorck.org/
   4. http://www.ccwatershed.org/kwasniewski
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org/
   7. http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/
   8. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/

[LUTE] Re: Help for installation of geared pegs.

[John Mardinly]

   Mel Wong will be installing these pegs in my 1968 Rubio as part of the
   restoration. He has used them in the past and reports excellent
   results. They are also relatively inexpensive. I am looking forward to
   the experience.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.

   Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer

   EMail: [1]john.mardi...@asu.edu

   Cell: [2]408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs)

   Titan Lab: [3]480-727-5651

   NION UltraSTEM Lab: [4]480-727-5652

   JEOL ARM 200 Lab: [5]480-727-5653

   2010F Lab: [6]480-727-5654

   Office: [7]480-965-7946

   John Cowley Center for HREM, LE-CSSS

   B134B Bateman Physical Sciences Building

   Arizona State University

   [8]PO Box 871704

   [9]Tempe, AZ 85287-1704

   On Nov 29, 2014, at 8:22 AM, "Herbert Ward"
   <[10]wa...@physics.utexas.edu> wrote:

   I'm considering installation of geared pegs on my lute.
   The website ([11]http://www.pegheds.com) says that any
   qualified repair person can do the installation.  But
   that is probably for violins, cellos, etc.
   Would a violin repair person be able to do the installation?
   Are there fundamental differences between a violin pegbox
   and a lute pegbox?
   Would a cello repair person be better than a violin repair
   person?
   Of my 13 pegs, 10 wind internally to the pegbox, and 3
   wind externally.  My understanding is that the external
   pegs require special attention.  So I will, at first,
   install only 10 geared pegs.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu
   2. tel:408-921-3253
   3. tel:480-727-5651
   4. tel:480-727-5652
   5. tel:480-727-5653
   6. tel:480-727-5654
   7. tel:480-965-7946
   8. x-apple-data-detectors://6/
   9. x-apple-data-detectors://6/
  10. mailto:wa...@physics.utexas.edu
  11. http://www.pegheds.com/
  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help on tuning

[Tom]

   David,
   I forgot to mention the lute is 63 cm. Thanks for your suggestions. I
   have had Chris at [1]catlines.com help calculate the tensions, but as
   I've only had a lute for 3 months, the tension is a bit of a mystery at
   this time.
   --
   Sincerely,
   Tom

   --

References

   1. http://catlines.com/


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re;: help on tuning

[Tom]

   Thanks for the suggestions. Here is the info David asked me to include:
   The strings are about a week old

   NNG52 - 8 course lute 5th octave c'

   NNG100 - 8 course lute 5th c

   NNG68 - 8 course lute 6th octave g

   KFG121 - 8 course lute 6th G

   NNG76 - 8 course lute 7th octave f

   KFG132 - 8 course lute 7th F

   NNG88 - 8 course lute 8th octave d

   KFG160 - 8 course lute 8th D
   As you can see, the srings are either New Nylgut and KFG
   --
   Sincerely,
   Tom

   --


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[LUTE] Re: help on tuning

[John Collingwood]

   Hi Tom
   Sounds like it could be a problem with the grooves in the nut.  If the
   octave string is set too high relative to the fundamental, it will need
   that much extra tension to be pressed down onto the fret, with the
   obvious tuning discrepancy that you describe.  It is complicated
   because of the different in thickness (and stiffness) between the two
   strings.
   If I were you, I would try inserting a very thin layer of card or
   plastic under the fundamental, at the nut groove, and see if it
   improves the tuning of your fretted octaves (in this case by raising
   the fundamental.  Forget the fact that the frets are now slightly out
   of position).  If so, the next step would be to consider whether the
   groove for the octave string can be made deeper without bringing the
   string too close to the frets.
   Good luck
   John

   On 10 October 2013 07:44, Tom <[1]tgw...@gmail.com> wrote:

I posted this to the lutening group but thought it wouldn't hurt
 to try
here, also.
Hello everyone,
I have what is probably a newbie question. I am unable to tune
 the 5th,
6th, and to a lesser degree the 7th and 8th courses to my
 satisfaction.
When tuned so that the octaves have no beats between the two
 strings,
the strings are out of tune when fretted. The octave course is
invariably sharp, or at least sharp enough to drive me batty
 (although
there are those who would argue that it's a drive...more like a
 putt).
My ears are pretty good to within 5 cents of a tone.
I've tried lowering the fundamental by a few cents, but it
 doesn't seem
to help until the the two strings of a course are out of tune
 when
open.
Help!!! (please)
--
Sincerely,
Tom
--
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:tgw...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help on tuning

[William Samson]

   Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
 __

   From: William Samson ;
   To: Tom ;
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] help on tuning
   Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 6:53:37 AM

   It sounds like your octaves are at a lower tension than their partners.
   Try replacing them with strings at the same tension and see if that
   helps.

   Good luck!

   Bill

   Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
 __

   From: Tom ;
   To: ;
   Subject: [LUTE] help on tuning
   Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 6:44:16 AM
 I posted this to the lutening group but thought it wouldn't hurt to
   try
 here, also.
 Hello everyone,
 I have what is probably a newbie question. I am unable to tune the
   5th,
 6th, and to a lesser degree the 7th and 8th courses to my
   satisfaction.
 When tuned so that the octaves have no beats between the two strings,
 the strings are out of tune when fretted. The octave course is
 invariably sharp, or at least sharp enough to drive me batty
   (although
 there are those who would argue that it's a drive...more like a
   putt).
 My ears are pretty good to within 5 cents of a tone.
 I've tried lowering the fundamental by a few cents, but it doesn't
   seem
 to help until the the two strings of a course are out of tune when
 open.
 Help!!! (please)
 --
 Sincerely,
 Tom
 --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help on tuning

[David van Ooijen]

   Tom
   First a return question: what is you string material, brand, diameters
   ('numbers' for some brands)/tenison and last but certainly not least,
   age? All these factors play a role. If strings are old, replace and
   you'll feel better. If strings are gut, you might have a tough time
   adjusting. If strings are metalwounds and plastics (nylon or
   otherwise), ditch the octaves on courses 5 and 6 and you'll be fine.
   David

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   On 10 October 2013 08:44, Tom <[3]tgw...@gmail.com> wrote:

I posted this to the lutening group but thought it wouldn't hurt
 to try
here, also.
Hello everyone,
I have what is probably a newbie question. I am unable to tune
 the 5th,
6th, and to a lesser degree the 7th and 8th courses to my
 satisfaction.
When tuned so that the octaves have no beats between the two
 strings,
the strings are out of tune when fretted. The octave course is
invariably sharp, or at least sharp enough to drive me batty
 (although
there are those who would argue that it's a drive...more like a
 putt).
My ears are pretty good to within 5 cents of a tone.
I've tried lowering the fundamental by a few cents, but it
 doesn't seem
to help until the the two strings of a course are out of tune
 when
open.
Help!!! (please)
--
Sincerely,
Tom
--
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   3. mailto:tgw...@gmail.com
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help, please!

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Thank you so much Ken ! I do appreciate your kind and fast gesture.
Hope I can help you back some time !

All the best,

Jean-Marie Poirier

=
  
== En réponse au message du 16-03-2012, 22:04:58 ==

>I've attached the article for you.
>
>Ken Brodkey
>
>On 3/16/2012 1:53 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Would there be anyone affiliated with JSTOR who would be kind enough to get 
>> the following article for me and forward it (as pdf) :
>> http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20532033?uid=2134&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=47698767830877
>>
>> It's an article about A. Holborne and unfortunately it can't be bought, 
>> contrary to many others...
>>
>> Thank you in advance if you can help !
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Jean-Marie Poirier
>> jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>

[LUTE] Re: Help with Verdelot

[Edward Martin]

Martin,

I can help. as I have both of those editions.  It seems from your 
request that you need just the voice and tablature parts.  I shall 
scan and send in a few minutes.

ed

At 05:23 PM 3/12/2012, Martin Eastwell wrote:
>Hi!
>Years ago, my copy of the London Pro Musica edition of Verdelot madrigals,
>set for lute and voice by Willaert, disappeared. I don't think the promised
>reprinted is yet available and the SPES facsimile is also out of print, but
>I need a copy of "Quanto sia liet' il giorno" for a concert as soon as
>possible. Is there an online copy, or can any kind person help with a scan
>or a Fronimo file?
>
>
>Many thanks
>
>Martin
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
http://www.myspace.com/edslute
http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin

[LUTE] Re: Help for a lapsed lutenist

[Leonard Williams]

Al--
I can't help with a teacher recommendation, but based on my own
experience (10 yr hiatus), I would encourage you to at least get started
working from what you already know.  It will come back!

Regards,
Leonard Williams
  
   /[ ]
   /   \
  |  *  |
  \_=_/



On 2/11/12 4:29 PM, "A.J. Padilla MD"  wrote:

>  Having been distracted by an absurdly hectic schedule, (and after my
>  teacher relocated to the DC area), my lute playing/practice has been
>  sidelined for a number of years.
> 
>  Can anybody recommend a teacher in the Westchester, NY area (north of
>  NYC, though I frequently go to "the city"  and would have no problem
>  with lessons there).
> 
>  Used to be "early-intermediate" now deteriorated to "beginner plus" I
>  think.
> 
> 
>  Al Padilla
> 
>  --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help finding Respighi's source for Siciliana

[T.Kakinami]

Hello Julia and all,

You can find on Oscar Chilesotti's Book.
"Spagnoletta" is introduced as Nr.64 (Titolo indecifrabile) on the book "Da
un Codice Lauten-Buch del Cinquecento".
These books are introduced on my blog.
http://kakitoshilute.blogspot.com/2011/04/oscar-chilesotti.html

*
  Toshiaki Kakinami
  E-mail :  tk...@orchid.plala.or.jp
  Blog   : http://kakitoshilute.blogspot.com
*



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Julia Seager-Scott
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 3:53 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] help finding Respighi's source for Siciliana

   Hello all,

   I am a triple-harp player looking for the original source of Respighi's
   "Siciliana" from "Ancient Airs and Dances".  I have found out it is a
   "Spagnoletta" by Anonymous, of course.  It is also recorded by Paul
   Odette and there are very helpful writings about it
   here: [1]http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDH55146

   I am wondering if anyone has music they could share with me, either
   modern notation or manuscript.  I would even take tablature as a kind
   friend has offered to transcribe it for me.

   It is for a good cause-- the Respighi version is my childhood friend's
   favourite piece.  She is getting married next month and I would like to
   surprise her with the original, performed on baroque harp.

   Any help would be greatly appreciated.

   Julia Seager-Scott

   --

References

   1. http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDH55146


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help finding Respighi's source for Siciliana

[Julia Seager-Scott]

Thank you Howard, Lex and Ed for your help and very quick responses!   
What a wonderful resource to have stumbled upon!

Take care,
Julia

On 24-Apr-11, at 8:41 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote:


  This can be found in Caroso's dance treatise 1600. There is a modern
  transcription by Julia Sutton, I think.

  On Apr 25, 2011, at 3:52 AM, Julia Seager-Scott wrote:

Hello all,
I am a triple-harp player looking for the original source of
  Respighi's
"Siciliana" from "Ancient Airs and Dances".  I have found out it  
is a
"Spagnoletta" by Anonymous, of course.  It is also recorded by  
Paul

Odette and there are very helpful writings about it
here: [1][1]http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDH55146
I am wondering if anyone has music they could share with me,  
either
modern notation or manuscript.  I would even take tablature as a  
kind

friend has offered to transcribe it for me.
It is for a good cause-- the Respighi version is my childhood
  friend's
favourite piece.  She is getting married next month and I would  
like

  to
surprise her with the original, performed on baroque harp.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Julia Seager-Scott
--
  References
1. [2]http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDH55146
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  Ed Durbrow
  Saitama, Japan
  [4]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
  [5]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

  --

References

  1. http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDH55146
  2. http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDH55146
  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  4. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
  5. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

[LUTE] Re: help finding Respighi's source for Siciliana

[Ed Durbrow]

   This can be found in Caroso's dance treatise 1600. There is a modern
   transcription by Julia Sutton, I think.

   On Apr 25, 2011, at 3:52 AM, Julia Seager-Scott wrote:

 Hello all,
 I am a triple-harp player looking for the original source of
   Respighi's
 "Siciliana" from "Ancient Airs and Dances".  I have found out it is a
 "Spagnoletta" by Anonymous, of course.  It is also recorded by Paul
 Odette and there are very helpful writings about it
 here: [1][1]http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDH55146
 I am wondering if anyone has music they could share with me, either
 modern notation or manuscript.  I would even take tablature as a kind
 friend has offered to transcribe it for me.
 It is for a good cause-- the Respighi version is my childhood
   friend's
 favourite piece.  She is getting married next month and I would like
   to
 surprise her with the original, performed on baroque harp.
 Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 Julia Seager-Scott
 --
   References
 1. [2]http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDH55146
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   Ed Durbrow
   Saitama, Japan
   [4]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
   [5]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

   --

References

   1. http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDH55146
   2. http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDH55146
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
   5. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

[LUTE] Re: help finding Respighi's source for Siciliana

[Lex van Sante]

Hi Julia,
Respighi based "ancient Airs and Danses"  on Oscar Chilesotti's "Da un Codice 
del Cinquecento" for guitar which is republished by Editions Orphee.
The Spagnoletta should be in there.
Check out http://www.editionsorphee.com/lute/codice.html
Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Lex
Op 24 apr 2011, om 20:52 heeft Julia Seager-Scott het volgende geschreven:

>   Hello all,
> 
>   I am a triple-harp player looking for the original source of Respighi's
>   "Siciliana" from "Ancient Airs and Dances".  I have found out it is a
>   "Spagnoletta" by Anonymous, of course.  It is also recorded by Paul
>   Odette and there are very helpful writings about it
>   here: [1]http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDH55146
> 
>   I am wondering if anyone has music they could share with me, either
>   modern notation or manuscript.  I would even take tablature as a kind
>   friend has offered to transcribe it for me.
> 
>   It is for a good cause-- the Respighi version is my childhood friend's
>   favourite piece.  She is getting married next month and I would like to
>   surprise her with the original, performed on baroque harp.
> 
>   Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
>   Julia Seager-Scott
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?al=CDH55146
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help finding Respighi's source for Siciliana

[howard posner]

Try one of these:

http://www.sca.org.au/del/ddb/music/caroso_spagnoletta_transcribed.pdf

http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel/phaedria/SPAGNOLE.pdf

On Apr 24, 2011, at 11:52 AM, Julia Seager-Scott wrote:

>  Hello all,
>
>  I am a triple-harp player looking for the original source of Respighi's
>  "Siciliana" from "Ancient Airs and Dances".  I have found out it is a
>  "Spagnoletta" by Anonymous, of course.  It is also recorded by Paul
>  Odette and there are very helpful writings about it
>  here: [1]http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?alÍH55146
>
>  I am wondering if anyone has music they could share with me, either
>  modern notation or manuscript.  I would even take tablature as a kind
>  friend has offered to transcribe it for me.
>
>  It is for a good cause-- the Respighi version is my childhood friend's
>  favourite piece.  She is getting married next month and I would like to
>  surprise her with the original, performed on baroque harp.
>
>  Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
>  Julia Seager-Scott
>
>  --
>
> References
>
>  1. http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/al.asp?alÍH55146
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: Help, please !

[Andrew White]

sent to your email.. 

Andrew 
On 31/03/2011, at 7:02 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

> Dear all,
> 
> Would anyone affiliated with JSTOR be kind enough to forward the following 
> article : http://www.jstor.org/pss/20532372 (Some "Liturgical Motets" for the 
> French Royal Court: A Reconsideration of Genre in the Sixteenth-Century Motet
> John T. Brobeck, Musica Disciplina, Vol. 47, (1993), pp. 123-157) to my 
> private mailbox : jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
> 
> It's funny how some articles can be paid for and some not. THis one is only 
> avilable to peaople affiliated with JSTOR which is not my case, alas !
> 
> Thank you in advance with all my gratefulness,
> 
> Jean-Marie Poirier
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!

[Edward Martin]

I purchased my first lute in 1977, used.  it was an East German lute, 
by a builder named, "Meinl".  It was a heavily constructed lute, and 
it appears very similar to the one in your photos.

It had many guitar-like features, including metal frets and a bridge 
saddle.  If my memory serves me correctly, it may have had an 
engraving on the belly, where the neck meets the belly, with 
initials.  Perhaps the "M" is for Meinl.

Is there anyone on the list familiar with these old lutes?

ed



At 03:48 PM 5/12/2010, Samuel Jacques wrote:
> Thanks Steve, that's why I did not include any pictures in the reply.
>I know I myself have parused the list archive many a ties for answers
>about lutes, and I am sure someone else will buy a lute similar to mine
>and will want more information on it... now the information will be on
>the archive!  I will no longer forward emails to the list though.
>Thank you for that museum address!!!  I will recieve the instrument
>shortly.  Once I get it, or once i get more information on it, I will
>post here.
>--- On Wed, 5/12/10, Steve Ramey  wrote:
>
>  From: Steve Ramey 
>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!
>  To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>  Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 12:43 PM
>
>   No, I don't mind that you've reposted my reply.  I sent it off-list
>due
>   to its length and the fact I'd included several photos, which won't
>   post to the list.
>   Yes, my Penzel lute has a label inside.  It reads:
> Guenter Penzel
> Zupfinstrumentmachermeister
> Markneukirchen
>   Made in Germany  1993
>   On the label, his first name is spelled with an umlaut, not the "ue"
>   convention used with keyboards without an umlaut.  The label has the
>   19__ printed on it and the 93 filled in in blue ball point.
>   On the back side of the peg box is a black ink on white paper label
>   with the numbers 9993260, which I take to mean the instrument may
>have
>   been begun on 9 September, 1993 and would be the 260th
>instrument/item
>   built in the shop that year.  That's just a rather uneducated guess
>on
>   my part.  The numbers 1093 are stamped into the wood on the treble
>side
>   of the peg box right where the peg box joins the neck.  Again, just
>a
>   wild guess, but I believe this may indicate the lute was completed
>in
>   October, 1993.
>   Check out www.museum-markneukirchen.de.  It's a place where you can
>ask
>   questions about instruments from Markneukirchen and maybe (or maybe
>   not) get some answers.  Send them a good, clear photo of the maker's
>   mark on your lute--  pull the strings aside before you take this
>photo.
>   Hope this helps an additional bit.
>   Steve
> ______
>   From: Samuel Jacques <[1]dei...@yahoo.com>
>   To: [2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:26:09 AM
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!
> I received a very thorough reply from Steve Ramey, which I've
>   included
> below.  I hope it is okay for me to repost his email so that the
>list
> may see it?  He replied to my email only.  This is my first
>mailing
> list subscription and I am not sure on protocol.
> I thought I would forward his reply as it has given me a very good
> indication of where this lute was made.  Althought he pictures are
>   not
> included here, he is right - the case is VERY similar to his. My
>lute
> also has some very big similarities to his, indicating that
>perhaps
>   the
> lute was made in Germany.  Steve, does your german lute have a
>label
> inside?
> I find it odd that the maker simply left initials on the
>instrument
> rather than placing a label inside with more information.  If the
>   lute
> was made in Germany, that would complicate things for me, as i do
>not
> speak german and the lute was made many years ago.  I will perhaps
> contact that maker you reffered to.
> Also very good information on the strings - thank you.  that is an
>   area
> I have not researched yet.  I do not mind having the instrument
> sounding like a guitar at this point, I am still learning the
>basic
> hand movements.
> cheers, and many thanks
> --- On Wed,

[LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!

[Samuel Jacques]

Thanks Steve, that's why I did not include any pictures in the reply.
   I know I myself have parused the list archive many a ties for answers
   about lutes, and I am sure someone else will buy a lute similar to mine
   and will want more information on it... now the information will be on
   the archive!  I will no longer forward emails to the list though.
   Thank you for that museum address!!!  I will recieve the instrument
   shortly.  Once I get it, or once i get more information on it, I will
   post here.
   --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Steve Ramey  wrote:

 From: Steve Ramey 
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 12:43 PM

  No, I don't mind that you've reposted my reply.  I sent it off-list
   due
  to its length and the fact I'd included several photos, which won't
  post to the list.
  Yes, my Penzel lute has a label inside.  It reads:
Guenter Penzel
Zupfinstrumentmachermeister
Markneukirchen
  Made in Germany  1993
  On the label, his first name is spelled with an umlaut, not the "ue"
  convention used with keyboards without an umlaut.  The label has the
  19__ printed on it and the 93 filled in in blue ball point.
  On the back side of the peg box is a black ink on white paper label
  with the numbers 9993260, which I take to mean the instrument may
   have
  been begun on 9 September, 1993 and would be the 260th
   instrument/item
  built in the shop that year.  That's just a rather uneducated guess
   on
  my part.  The numbers 1093 are stamped into the wood on the treble
   side
  of the peg box right where the peg box joins the neck.  Again, just
   a
  wild guess, but I believe this may indicate the lute was completed
   in
  October, 1993.
  Check out www.museum-markneukirchen.de.  It's a place where you can
   ask
  questions about instruments from Markneukirchen and maybe (or maybe
  not) get some answers.  Send them a good, clear photo of the maker's
  mark on your lute--  pull the strings aside before you take this
   photo.
  Hope this helps an additional bit.
  Steve
__
  From: Samuel Jacques <[1]dei...@yahoo.com>
  To: [2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:26:09 AM
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!
I received a very thorough reply from Steve Ramey, which I've
  included
below.  I hope it is okay for me to repost his email so that the
   list
may see it?  He replied to my email only.  This is my first
   mailing
list subscription and I am not sure on protocol.
I thought I would forward his reply as it has given me a very good
indication of where this lute was made.  Althought he pictures are
  not
included here, he is right - the case is VERY similar to his. My
   lute
also has some very big similarities to his, indicating that
   perhaps
  the
lute was made in Germany.  Steve, does your german lute have a
   label
inside?
I find it odd that the maker simply left initials on the
   instrument
rather than placing a label inside with more information.  If the
  lute
was made in Germany, that would complicate things for me, as i do
   not
speak german and the lute was made many years ago.  I will perhaps
contact that maker you reffered to.
Also very good information on the strings - thank you.  that is an
  area
I have not researched yet.  I do not mind having the instrument
sounding like a guitar at this point, I am still learning the
   basic
hand movements.
cheers, and many thanks
--- On Wed, 5/12/10, Steve Ramey <> wrote:
  From: Steve Ramey <>
  Subject: Re: [LUTE] Help identifying 40 year old lute!
  To: "Samuel Jacques" <[1][3]dei...@yahoo.com>
  Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 1:59 AM
Hi Samuel,
I have a 7C ren lute that is somewhat similar to yours in
   appearance.
String length (known as "mensur") on mine is 62 cm.  It was made
   by
"Zupfinstrumentmachermeister" (plucked instrument master maker)
  Guenter
Penzel (you can google him) (or at least it was made in his shop)
   in
Markneukirchen Germany, probably in 1993.  I've included some
   photos.
The points of similarity begin with the case--  mine would appear
   to
  be
virtually an exact duplicate of yours.  The treatment of the sound
hole--  different color--  like smoked box wood is similar, as is
   the
"rider" for the chanterelle (highes

[LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!

[Steve Ramey]

   No, I don't mind that you've reposted my reply.  I sent it off-list due
   to its length and the fact I'd included several photos, which won't
   post to the list.
   Yes, my Penzel lute has a label inside.  It reads:
 Guenter Penzel
 Zupfinstrumentmachermeister
 Markneukirchen
   Made in Germany  1993
   On the label, his first name is spelled with an umlaut, not the "ue"
   convention used with keyboards without an umlaut.  The label has the
   19__ printed on it and the 93 filled in in blue ball point.
   On the back side of the peg box is a black ink on white paper label
   with the numbers 9993260, which I take to mean the instrument may have
   been begun on 9 September, 1993 and would be the 260th instrument/item
   built in the shop that year.  That's just a rather uneducated guess on
   my part.  The numbers 1093 are stamped into the wood on the treble side
   of the peg box right where the peg box joins the neck.  Again, just a
   wild guess, but I believe this may indicate the lute was completed in
   October, 1993.
   Check out www.museum-markneukirchen.de.  It's a place where you can ask
   questions about instruments from Markneukirchen and maybe (or maybe
   not) get some answers.  Send them a good, clear photo of the maker's
   mark on your lute--  pull the strings aside before you take this photo.

   Hope this helps an additional bit.
   Steve
 __

   From: Samuel Jacques 
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:26:09 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!
 I received a very thorough reply from Steve Ramey, which I've
   included
 below.  I hope it is okay for me to repost his email so that the list
 may see it?  He replied to my email only.  This is my first mailing
 list subscription and I am not sure on protocol.
 I thought I would forward his reply as it has given me a very good
 indication of where this lute was made.  Althought he pictures are
   not
 included here, he is right - the case is VERY similar to his. My lute
 also has some very big similarities to his, indicating that perhaps
   the
 lute was made in Germany.  Steve, does your german lute have a label
 inside?
 I find it odd that the maker simply left initials on the instrument
 rather than placing a label inside with more information.  If the
   lute
 was made in Germany, that would complicate things for me, as i do not
 speak german and the lute was made many years ago.  I will perhaps
 contact that maker you reffered to.
 Also very good information on the strings - thank you.  that is an
   area
 I have not researched yet.  I do not mind having the instrument
 sounding like a guitar at this point, I am still learning the basic
 hand movements.
 cheers, and many thanks
 --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Steve Ramey <> wrote:
   From: Steve Ramey <>
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Help identifying 40 year old lute!
   To: "Samuel Jacques" <[1]dei...@yahoo.com>
   Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 1:59 AM
 Hi Samuel,
 I have a 7C ren lute that is somewhat similar to yours in appearance.
 String length (known as "mensur") on mine is 62 cm.  It was made by
 "Zupfinstrumentmachermeister" (plucked instrument master maker)
   Guenter
 Penzel (you can google him) (or at least it was made in his shop) in
 Markneukirchen Germany, probably in 1993.  I've included some photos.
 The points of similarity begin with the case--  mine would appear to
   be
 virtually an exact duplicate of yours.  The treatment of the sound
 hole--  different color--  like smoked box wood is similar, as is the
 "rider" for the chanterelle (highest pitch string).  My Penzel lute
   has
 numerous guitar-like features--  the raised fingerboard--  it's not
 level with the top of the lute; plywood top (spruce over pine);
 guitar-style bridge with saddle; and you can't see them, but
 guitar-style braces inside on the top.  The neck on my lute is
   thicker
 than it should be for comfortable playing.  My Penzel lute weighs
   1415
 gm.  By way of contrast, my 61 cm 8C Dan Larson lute weighs only 677
 gm.  My Larson lute sounds like a lute should, even though I'm
   strictly
 a rank amateur at it.  My Penzel lute sounds good, but it sounds a
   lot
 like a guitar, no matter who plays it.
 You may note that the position of the bridge on mine is farther "up"
 the top than correct lute bridge position (much closer to the bottom
 end of the lute)--  see the photo of my 8C Dan Larson lute for
   correct
 placement of the bridge and sound hole.  It appears your bridge is
 similar to mine, except your bridge d

[LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!

[Samuel Jacques]

   I received a very thorough reply from Steve Ramey, which I've included
   below.  I hope it is okay for me to repost his email so that the list
   may see it?  He replied to my email only.  This is my first mailing
   list subscription and I am not sure on protocol.
   I thought I would forward his reply as it has given me a very good
   indication of where this lute was made.  Althought he pictures are not
   included here, he is right - the case is VERY similar to his. My lute
   also has some very big similarities to his, indicating that perhaps the
   lute was made in Germany.  Steve, does your german lute have a label
   inside?
   I find it odd that the maker simply left initials on the instrument
   rather than placing a label inside with more information.  If the lute
   was made in Germany, that would complicate things for me, as i do not
   speak german and the lute was made many years ago.  I will perhaps
   contact that maker you reffered to.
   Also very good information on the strings - thank you.  that is an area
   I have not researched yet.  I do not mind having the instrument
   sounding like a guitar at this point, I am still learning the basic
   hand movements.
   cheers, and many thanks
   --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Steve Ramey <> wrote:

 From: Steve Ramey <>
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Help identifying 40 year old lute!
 To: "Samuel Jacques" 
 Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 1:59 AM

   Hi Samuel,
   I have a 7C ren lute that is somewhat similar to yours in appearance.
   String length (known as "mensur") on mine is 62 cm.  It was made by
   "Zupfinstrumentmachermeister" (plucked instrument master maker) Guenter
   Penzel (you can google him) (or at least it was made in his shop) in
   Markneukirchen Germany, probably in 1993.  I've included some photos.
   The points of similarity begin with the case--  mine would appear to be
   virtually an exact duplicate of yours.  The treatment of the sound
   hole--  different color--  like smoked box wood is similar, as is the
   "rider" for the chanterelle (highest pitch string).  My Penzel lute has
   numerous guitar-like features--  the raised fingerboard--  it's not
   level with the top of the lute; plywood top (spruce over pine);
   guitar-style bridge with saddle; and you can't see them, but
   guitar-style braces inside on the top.  The neck on my lute is thicker
   than it should be for comfortable playing.  My Penzel lute weighs 1415
   gm.  By way of contrast, my 61 cm 8C Dan Larson lute weighs only 677
   gm.  My Larson lute sounds like a lute should, even though I'm strictly
   a rank amateur at it.  My Penzel lute sounds good, but it sounds a lot
   like a guitar, no matter who plays it.
   You may note that the position of the bridge on mine is farther "up"
   the top than correct lute bridge position (much closer to the bottom
   end of the lute)--  see the photo of my 8C Dan Larson lute for correct
   placement of the bridge and sound hole.  It appears your bridge is
   similar to mine, except your bridge does not appear to have a saddle
   (the piece of wood or bone over which the strings pass)(real lute
   bridges have no saddle, rather, the strings extend from the bridge to
   the nut).  Your sound hole appears to be in a more nearly correct
   location.
   The treatment of the area around the end clasp of our lutes differ--
   yours has no clasp.
   Shortly after I bought my Penzel lute, also on eBay, another of his
   instruments appeared on eBay.  It was a 9C ren lute.  I've included a
   couple of photos of it, for your comparison, as well.
   My bottom line on the genesis of your lute is that it was made in an
   instrument factory or workshop in what used to be East Germany, quite
   possibly back when it was East Germany, based on the metal frets.  The
   initials on the top of your instrument would provide definitive
   information on either the actual maker, or the master in the shop in
   which it was made.  Unfortunately, I have no info to help you on that
   point.
   On to strings--  Generally, string tension for lutes begins at about 35
   Newtons for the chanterelle, and decreases slightly as one moves to the
   lower pitch strings.  Some folks consider 50 Newtons as beyond the
   upper limit of string tension.  If your lute weighs in at something
   over 1000 gm, my unsubstantiated guess would be that it is of
   sufficiently strong construction that it could sustain string tensions
   beginning around 45 Newtons, possibly more.  You might do well to
   contact Curtis at [1]www.AquilaUSA.com for particular guidance.  He
   sells the Nylgut strings which do sound more like gut than nylon
   strings and although they take a longer time to stabilize when new, are
   not so affected by variation in temp and humidity as nylon strings.
   You can tell him what you have and what you want to achieve and he can
   guide you in the right direction.  Chris Henrickson at Boston Catlines
   can do the same.
   Ho

[LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!

[Christopher Stetson]

   I agree with Howard.  I remember meeting Robert Meadow in the mid-70's,
   and he seemed fairly committed to historical construction, so barring a
   special order, I would doubt that's one of his.
   >>> howard posner  5/11/2010 11:41 PM >>>
   On May 11, 2010, at 7:47 PM, Samuel Jacques wrote:
   >  Does anyone know where I can find pictures of lutes made by either
   >   Robert Meadows or Anthony Murphy?
   I don't think Meadow made heavy lutes with metal frets.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute

[LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!

[howard posner]

On May 11, 2010, at 7:47 PM, Samuel Jacques wrote:

>  Does anyone know where I can find pictures of lutes made by either
>   Robert Meadows or Anthony Murphy?


I don't think Meadow made heavy lutes with metal frets.  



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!

[Samuel Jacques]

   Does anyone know where I can find pictures of lutes made by either
   Robert Meadows or Anthony Murphy? Google is not very forthcoming about
   giving me any information.  I guess that is what happens when one is
   trying to track an obscure instrument that was made almost half a
   decade ago.  I was hoping to see pictures of lutes made by them to
   compare.
   --- On Tue, 5/11/10, gonzornumpl...@roadrunner.com
wrote:

 From: gonzornumpl...@roadrunner.com 
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, "Samuel Jacques" 
 Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 8:06 PM

   Dear Samuel,
   Though I cannot be definitive, years ago I purchased on ebay a 13 cs
   baroque lute having similar features and price which was made by a
   highly skilled Englishman or Irishman named A.(Anthony) Murphy.  It had
   unique not entirely historical features including a laterally doubled
   pegbox (this innovation halved the length of the pegbox) and similar
   fixed metal frets with very deep or high relief wood frets on the
   soundboard.  The lute was somewhat heavy, and I tried a variety of
   stringings but could never obtain anything close to the resonance of my
   1976 Lundberg (a very light instrument made specifically for my
   hands).  The Murphy 13 cs lute was in perfect condition, and in
   retrospect I should have attempted to use high tension (guitar-like)
   strings in order to improve sound projection.  Instead, needing a tax
   deduction at the time, I donated the instrument to a local university
   where most of the students have never before seen a lute of any kind,
   and it remains in the college art museum like a piece of furniture
   students can gawk at.
   If I'm not mistaken, your Renaissance instrument has a Padoan
   soundboard shape.  Your 8th course may rattle due to the fractured nut
   underneath, but I would prefer having a seven as opposed to an 8-course
   lute anyway, there being much more extant music tabulature for seven as
   compared to eight courses.   There are vastly more knowledgeable people
   on this list who may be able to correct my own misconceptions or
   misstatements, but I fully appreciate your concern and need for
   information.  Wish I could provide more.
   Mark Seifert M.D.
    Samuel Jacques <[1]dei...@yahoo.com> wrote:
   >
   >Hello!  I have to admit I am new to the list, and to lute playing
   in
   >general.  I started off by practicing on a cheap paki flat back
   lute
   >(300$) just to see if I would like it, and I do!  So today I found
   a
   >beautiful lute on ebay that was still relatively cheap (900$).
   >Now, I know from reading the archive that there are alot of
   purists on
   >the list - but you know, I love my paki lute since without it, I
   would
   >never have been able to attempt to play this beautiful music.  The
   >sound might not be good, but considering I have never played
   guitare or
   >any instrument, I'm sure I could even make a $12,000 lute sound
   like a
   >sick duckling.
   >So with that in mind, I bought this new lute today.  It's a step
   up
   >from what I have now, I am sure.  But now I would like to know
   more
   >about the instrument.  The seller could not identify the maker's
   mark,
   >and there is no label inside.  The craftmanship seems pretty good
   >though.  here are the pictures:
   >[2]http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/
   >and the description (sorry for the size):
   >* Vintage 8 Course Renaissance Lute w/ original case and wooden
   peg
   >tuner * 640 mm scale * The action at the 8th fret measures .181
   inches
   >or 4.60 mm * Ebony, ivory dotted tuners * Neck is curly maple w/
   ebony
   >filets * 15 gorgeous brazilian rosewood ribs w/ an aged german
   spruce
   >top * Rosewood bridge, ebony fretboard and mahogany rose * Curly
   maple
   >and mahogany peg head * This lute sounds fantastic, but there are
   >issues that have been high-lighted in the pics * The nut has
   damage to
   >the 8th course section * It is chipped, but the strings still stay
   >where they should * There are various cracks in the spruce top :
   below
   >the bridge, next to the high frets, between the bridge and rose *
   What
   >is nice about these cracks is that they have been there a while
   and
   >have remained very tight * There is an excellent binding on this
   >instrument * There is no reason to repair these cracks and a
   repair
   >could diminish the sound quality which is superb * The metal frets
   show
   >little wear and are firmly seated * Not sure of the exact age, but
   is
   >at least 40 years old *
   >So, could anyone here help me to try and find out a l

[LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!

[Samuel Jacques]

Wow, thank you for the reply... I will note down that name and do some
   research - it is somewhat difficult to find any information without a
   starting point.  so thank you!
   About the fractured nut, yes I rarely use the 8th course so I figured
   this would not affect me as much.  And, besides, I imagine it would be
   a very easy fix (gluing on a piece of the material to fill the crack).
   I have not weighed the instrument, but I am expecting it to be heavy.
   The resonance issue could be a problem however... but seeing as I am
   using a 300$ lute-ish instrument with very little semblance to a real
   lute now, It will still be an improvement.
   What would I use then for "high tension strings"?  Right now my packi
   uses pyramid strings... and I cannot afford gut.  I would be very
   aprehensive at using metal strings as that could also put too much
   pressure on the instrument, no?
   again, thank you for the thoughful reply.
   --- On Tue, 5/11/10, gonzornumpl...@roadrunner.com
wrote:

 From: gonzornumpl...@roadrunner.com 
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, "Samuel Jacques" 
 Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 8:06 PM

   Dear Samuel,
   Though I cannot be definitive, years ago I purchased on ebay a 13 cs
   baroque lute having similar features and price which was made by a
   highly skilled Englishman or Irishman named A.(Anthony) Murphy.  It had
   unique not entirely historical features including a laterally doubled
   pegbox (this innovation halved the length of the pegbox) and similar
   fixed metal frets with very deep or high relief wood frets on the
   soundboard.  The lute was somewhat heavy, and I tried a variety of
   stringings but could never obtain anything close to the resonance of my
   1976 Lundberg (a very light instrument made specifically for my
   hands).  The Murphy 13 cs lute was in perfect condition, and in
   retrospect I should have attempted to use high tension (guitar-like)
   strings in order to improve sound projection.  Instead, needing a tax
   deduction at the time, I donated the instrument to a local university
   where most of the students have never before seen a lute of any kind,
   and it remains in the college art museum like a piece of furniture
   students can gawk at.
   If I'm not mistaken, your Renaissance instrument has a Padoan
   soundboard shape.  Your 8th course may rattle due to the fractured nut
   underneath, but I would prefer having a seven as opposed to an 8-course
   lute anyway, there being much more extant music tabulature for seven as
   compared to eight courses.   There are vastly more knowledgeable people
   on this list who may be able to correct my own misconceptions or
   misstatements, but I fully appreciate your concern and need for
   information.  Wish I could provide more.
   Mark Seifert M.D.
    Samuel Jacques <[1]dei...@yahoo.com> wrote:
   >
   >Hello!  I have to admit I am new to the list, and to lute playing
   in
   >general.  I started off by practicing on a cheap paki flat back
   lute
   >(300$) just to see if I would like it, and I do!  So today I found
   a
   >beautiful lute on ebay that was still relatively cheap (900$).
   >Now, I know from reading the archive that there are alot of
   purists on
   >the list - but you know, I love my paki lute since without it, I
   would
   >never have been able to attempt to play this beautiful music.  The
   >sound might not be good, but considering I have never played
   guitare or
   >any instrument, I'm sure I could even make a $12,000 lute sound
   like a
   >sick duckling.
   >So with that in mind, I bought this new lute today.  It's a step
   up
   >from what I have now, I am sure.  But now I would like to know
   more
   >about the instrument.  The seller could not identify the maker's
   mark,
   >and there is no label inside.  The craftmanship seems pretty good
   >though.  here are the pictures:
   >[2]http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/
   >and the description (sorry for the size):
   >* Vintage 8 Course Renaissance Lute w/ original case and wooden
   peg
   >tuner * 640 mm scale * The action at the 8th fret measures .181
   inches
   >or 4.60 mm * Ebony, ivory dotted tuners * Neck is curly maple w/
   ebony
   >filets * 15 gorgeous brazilian rosewood ribs w/ an aged german
   spruce
   >top * Rosewood bridge, ebony fretboard and mahogany rose * Curly
   maple
   >and mahogany peg head * This lute sounds fantastic, but there are
   >issues that have been high-lighted in the pics * The nut has
   damage to
   >the 8th course section * It is chipped, but the strings still stay
   >where they should * There are various cracks in the spruce top :
 

[LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!

[Samuel Jacques]

   Yes, although it is roughly similar to what I am using now (the paki
   lute).  I know my fingers will get a bit more tired but as stated
   before, it is only a beginner lute.  I am sure there is alot more about
   it that isnt "up to spec".  I thought the metal frets would be the
   first thing pointed out to me... which would open the can of worms I've
   seen in many other messages on the list.
   When I have played for a few years, I will likely upgrade to a better
   lute.  right now, I am struggling with the standard "greensleves".
   --- On Tue, 5/11/10, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

 From: Roman Turovsky 
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Help identifying 40 year old lute!
 To: "Samuel Jacques" , "Lutelist"
 
 Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 7:42 PM

   From: "Samuel Jacques" <[1]dei...@yahoo.com>
   >   though.  here are the pictures:
   >   [2]http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/
   >   and the description (sorry for the size):
   >   * Vintage 8 Course Renaissance Lute w/ original case and wooden peg
   >   tuner * 640 mm scale * The action at the 8th fret measures .181
   inches
   >   or 4.60 mm *
   This action is a goodly 1.10mm over what it should be - 3.50mm.
   RT

   --

References

   1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=dei...@yahoo.com
   2. http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!

[gonzornumplatt]

Dear Samuel,
Though I cannot be definitive, years ago I purchased on ebay a 13 cs baroque 
lute having similar features and price which was made by a highly skilled 
Englishman or Irishman named A.(Anthony) Murphy.  It had unique not entirely 
historical features including a laterally doubled pegbox (this innovation 
halved the length of the pegbox) and similar fixed metal frets with very deep 
or high relief wood frets on the soundboard.  The lute was somewhat heavy, and 
I tried a variety of stringings but could never obtain anything close to the 
resonance of my 1976 Lundberg (a very light instrument made specifically for my 
hands).  The Murphy 13 cs lute was in perfect condition, and in retrospect I 
should have attempted to use high tension (guitar-like) strings in order to 
improve sound projection.  Instead, needing a tax deduction at the time, I 
donated the instrument to a local university where most of the students have 
never before seen a lute of any kind, and it remains in the college art museum 
like a piece of furniture students can gawk at.  

If I'm not mistaken, your Renaissance instrument has a Padoan soundboard shape. 
 Your 8th course may rattle due to the fractured nut underneath, but I would 
prefer having a seven as opposed to an 8-course lute anyway, there being much 
more extant music tabulature for seven as compared to eight courses.   There 
are vastly more knowledgeable people on this list who may be able to correct my 
own misconceptions or misstatements, but I fully appreciate your concern and 
need for information.  Wish I could provide more.

Mark Seifert M.D.

 Samuel Jacques  wrote: 
> 
>Hello!  I have to admit I am new to the list, and to lute playing in
>general.  I started off by practicing on a cheap paki flat back lute
>(300$) just to see if I would like it, and I do!  So today I found a
>beautiful lute on ebay that was still relatively cheap (900$).
>Now, I know from reading the archive that there are alot of purists on
>the list - but you know, I love my paki lute since without it, I would
>never have been able to attempt to play this beautiful music.  The
>sound might not be good, but considering I have never played guitare or
>any instrument, I'm sure I could even make a $12,000 lute sound like a
>sick duckling.
>So with that in mind, I bought this new lute today.  It's a step up
>from what I have now, I am sure.  But now I would like to know more
>about the instrument.  The seller could not identify the maker's mark,
>and there is no label inside.  The craftmanship seems pretty good
>though.  here are the pictures:
>http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/
>and the description (sorry for the size):
>* Vintage 8 Course Renaissance Lute w/ original case and wooden peg
>tuner * 640 mm scale * The action at the 8th fret measures .181 inches
>or 4.60 mm * Ebony, ivory dotted tuners * Neck is curly maple w/ ebony
>filets * 15 gorgeous brazilian rosewood ribs w/ an aged german spruce
>top * Rosewood bridge, ebony fretboard and mahogany rose * Curly maple
>and mahogany peg head * This lute sounds fantastic, but there are
>issues that have been high-lighted in the pics * The nut has damage to
>the 8th course section * It is chipped, but the strings still stay
>where they should * There are various cracks in the spruce top : below
>the bridge, next to the high frets, between the bridge and rose * What
>is nice about these cracks is that they have been there a while and
>have remained very tight * There is an excellent binding on this
>instrument * There is no reason to repair these cracks and a repair
>could diminish the sound quality which is superb * The metal frets show
>little wear and are firmly seated * Not sure of the exact age, but is
>at least 40 years old *
>So, could anyone here help me to try and find out a little bit more
>about this lute?  I already know is it probably from the 70's, so it
>would be heavy, more like a guitare, and the metal frets are quite
>typical of a lute made from that era.  I can't seem to make out the
>makers initials... DM?  EM?  I wish I knew more about it.
>Thank you for any help you could provide!!!
> 
>--
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!

[Edward Martin]

Could the initials be RM?  Robert Meadow?  he was building 30 years ago.

ed

At 07:28 PM 5/11/2010, Samuel Jacques wrote:

>Hello!  I have to admit I am new to the list, and to lute playing in
>general.  I started off by practicing on a cheap paki flat back lute
>(300$) just to see if I would like it, and I do!  So today I found a
>beautiful lute on ebay that was still relatively cheap (900$).
>Now, I know from reading the archive that there are alot of purists on
>the list - but you know, I love my paki lute since without it, I would
>never have been able to attempt to play this beautiful music.  The
>sound might not be good, but considering I have never played guitare or
>any instrument, I'm sure I could even make a $12,000 lute sound like a
>sick duckling.
>So with that in mind, I bought this new lute today.  It's a step up
>from what I have now, I am sure.  But now I would like to know more
>about the instrument.  The seller could not identify the maker's mark,
>and there is no label inside.  The craftmanship seems pretty good
>though.  here are the pictures:
>http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/
>and the description (sorry for the size):
>* Vintage 8 Course Renaissance Lute w/ original case and wooden peg
>tuner * 640 mm scale * The action at the 8th fret measures .181 inches
>or 4.60 mm * Ebony, ivory dotted tuners * Neck is curly maple w/ ebony
>filets * 15 gorgeous brazilian rosewood ribs w/ an aged german spruce
>top * Rosewood bridge, ebony fretboard and mahogany rose * Curly maple
>and mahogany peg head * This lute sounds fantastic, but there are
>issues that have been high-lighted in the pics * The nut has damage to
>the 8th course section * It is chipped, but the strings still stay
>where they should * There are various cracks in the spruce top : below
>the bridge, next to the high frets, between the bridge and rose * What
>is nice about these cracks is that they have been there a while and
>have remained very tight * There is an excellent binding on this
>instrument * There is no reason to repair these cracks and a repair
>could diminish the sound quality which is superb * The metal frets show
>little wear and are firmly seated * Not sure of the exact age, but is
>at least 40 years old *
>So, could anyone here help me to try and find out a little bit more
>about this lute?  I already know is it probably from the 70's, so it
>would be heavy, more like a guitare, and the metal frets are quite
>typical of a lute made from that era.  I can't seem to make out the
>makers initials... DM?  EM?  I wish I knew more about it.
>Thank you for any help you could provide!!!
>
>--
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
http://www.myspace.com/edslute

[LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute!

[Roman Turovsky]

From: "Samuel Jacques" 

  though.  here are the pictures:
  http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/
  and the description (sorry for the size):
  * Vintage 8 Course Renaissance Lute w/ original case and wooden peg
  tuner * 640 mm scale * The action at the 8th fret measures .181 inches
  or 4.60 mm * 

This action is a goodly 1.10mm over what it should be - 3.50mm.
RT




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help in reading a French text fragment

[wikla]

Thanks Val!

The piece of this poem  (see below) is now in
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-kXRdzDrBs
and also
  http://www.vimeo.com/9646790

And the translation provided by you by the help of google is also there. My
google wasn't so clever...;-)

Thanks!

Arto

On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:44:31 +0100, "Valéry Sauvage" 
wrote:
> The french text is a poem :
> 
> A que je sens de penchant à me rendre
> Si mon Berger savait par où me prendre
> Hélas ! comment pourrais-je me défendre
> Contre un amant si fidèle et si tendre
> 
> Google translation give 
> Ah,  I feel inclined to surrender
> If my Shepherd knew where to take me
> Alas! how could I defend myself
> Against a lover so true and so tender
> 
> 
> -Message d'origine-
> De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la
> part
> de Arto Wikla
> Envoyé : jeudi 18 février 2010 08:16
> À : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Objet : [LUTE] Help in reading a French text fragment
> 
> 
> Dear Collective Wisdom, this time especially the French section,
> 
> I would like to find out, what certain 4 lines of French text say. The 
> handwriting is not very clear, not to speak of the meaning... ;-)
> 
> The text is in ms. Saizenay 279.153, page 3 at the end of "Sarabande La 
> Mignone", and here is the link:
>   
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/11_courseLute/words_of_Mignone.jpg
> 
> And is it just a poem or the words of some song that perhaps was the 
> model for the piece?
> 
> Many thanks already in advance!
> 
> Arto
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help in reading a French text fragment

[Arto Wikla]

Thanks Val and Dennis!

Now I know, what should be the mood in that piece! :-)

Arto



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[LUTE] Re: Help in reading a French text fragment

[dc]

Arto Wikla écrit:

I would like to find out, what certain 4 lines of French text say. The 
handwriting is not very clear, not to speak of the meaning... ;-)


The text is in ms. Saizenay 279.153, page 3 at the end of "Sarabande La 
Mignone", and here is the link:

  http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/11_courseLute/words_of_Mignone.jpg


This is what I read:

ah! que je sens de penchant à me rendre
si mon Berger sçavoit par où me prendre
hélas! comment pourrois-je me deffendre
contre un amant si fidelle et si tendre.

Dennis





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[LUTE] Re: Help in reading a French text fragment

[Valéry Sauvage]

The french text is a poem :

A que je sens de penchant à me rendre
Si mon Berger savait par où me prendre
Hélas ! comment pourrais-je me défendre
Contre un amant si fidèle et si tendre

Google translation give 
Ah,  I feel inclined to surrender
If my Shepherd knew where to take me
Alas! how could I defend myself
Against a lover so true and so tender


-Message d'origine-
De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part
de Arto Wikla
Envoyé : jeudi 18 février 2010 08:16
À : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Objet : [LUTE] Help in reading a French text fragment


Dear Collective Wisdom, this time especially the French section,

I would like to find out, what certain 4 lines of French text say. The 
handwriting is not very clear, not to speak of the meaning... ;-)

The text is in ms. Saizenay 279.153, page 3 at the end of "Sarabande La 
Mignone", and here is the link:
   http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/11_courseLute/words_of_Mignone.jpg

And is it just a poem or the words of some song that perhaps was the 
model for the piece?

Many thanks already in advance!

Arto



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help with LH fingering

[David Tayler]

I play the B flat chord striking the D only on the octave string of 
the 5th course, or I play it as writ on a smaller lute
dt


At 06:24 PM 1/20/2010, you wrote:
>I've been working on Capirola's "Baleto da balar bello".  The middle section
>has some simple looking but tricky chord shifts which I've been trying in
>various ways to make a smooth transition.  Any recommendations?  The section
>is below in ascii tab (use a monospace font).  The tricky palces are marked
>with an *, but I'm not sure of the accuracy of the marking (e.g., the dotted
>note toward the end belongs at the end--can't seem to find the right font on
>my machine!).  It's a Bb chord going to an Em?
>Thanks and regards,
>Leonard Williams
>
>
>
>   |  |\
>   |  |  *
>   |  |
>  __ _a__c__a_ _c__a _a_a_ a
>|_c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|
>|_d__f_|_|___f_|f|_f_f_|
>|__|_|_|_|_|
>|_a|_a___|_a___|_a___|_|
>|__|_|_|_|_d___|
>
>
>*
>  _ _ _ a _
>|_c__a|_a_a_|_c__a__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__a|
>|_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_f_f_|_d__c__d_|
>|___e_|e|_|_|___e_|
>|_a___|_|_a___|_|_a___|
>|_|_a___|_|_d___|_|
>
>
> |
> |
>   *|.
>  _ _ a _ _ ___
>|_a_a_|_c__a__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__a|_a_a_|_c_|
>|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_f_f_|_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d_|
>|e|_|_|___e_|e|___|
>|_|_a___|_|_a___|_|_a_|
>|_a___|_|_d___|_|_a___|___|
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help with LH fingering

[Martin Eastwell]

I've always played this Capirola passage with my thumb stopping the Bb on
course 6. Also some passages in Newsidler and Francesco da Milano.

As Stephen says, it is a question of having the right 6 course, as this
technique is only possible on a narrow neck. Most modern makers who produce
copies of the Gerle, which has (I think) a width at the nut of 42mm (and
therefore a string band at the nut of less than 40 mm) , widen it to keep
their customers happy. I wish they wouldn't, as this makes them much less
comfortable for the sort left hand positions often seen in early paintings.

Also, I feel left and right hand techniques are related here. Thumb over the
top of the neck means that the lute can be comfortably held at a much lower
angle, thus making it easier for the early RH position with the forearm
nearly parallel to the centreline of the lute.

As well as being used by modern electric players, the LH thumb technique was
widely used by C19th guitarists, notably Giuliani, who often notates it. The
slow movement of his sonata is a very good example. It allows the player to
avoid barres, and thus use open strings or stopped notes lower than the fret
at which the barre would be placed. Sor speaks disapprovingly of the
technique, however, in (I think) his tutor..


Martin E

On 21/1/10 19:08, "Stephen Fryer"  wrote:

> Leonard Williams wrote:
>> I've been working on Capirola's "Baleto da balar bello".  The middle section
>> has some simple looking but tricky chord shifts which I've been trying in
>> various ways to make a smooth transition.  Any recommendations?  The section
>> is below in ascii tab (use a monospace font).  The tricky palces are marked
>> with an *, but I'm not sure of the accuracy of the marking (e.g., the dotted
>> note toward the end belongs at the end--can't seem to find the right font on
>> my machine!).  It's a Bb chord going to an Em?
>> Thanks and regards,
>> Leonard Williams
> 
> The problem of fretting the sixth string pretty much goes away if you
> have the right 6-course lute and can stop it with your thumb.  This is a
> common technique with electric guitar and seems to be indicated as a
> possibility in the introduction to the Capirola MS (
> http://www.marincola.com/lutebot1.txt ).
> 
> Stephen Fryer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help with LH fingering

[Christopher Stetson]

   Hi, all,



   I agree, a great link to the Capirola translation.



   Just a note -- the LH thumb technique mentioned has only recently been
   universally frowned on in the classical guitar world, and primarily
   since the Segovia revolution (I know -- here he goes again!).  For one
   example, J. K. Mertz specifically notates for it in several places (see
   his "Kuckuck"); I don't know off-hand about other, more Spanish
   sources, but it's also called for in several of the American 19th/early
   20th c. guitar books I work from.  I'm sure some current composers are
   using it again.



   I've used it for this guitar music, though it takes getting used to
   (like any modification of one's established technique), and I find that
   usually I can go either way without seriously affecting the music.  My
   lute is 10-course, so I can't try it out with Capirola.



   As a probably OT aside, brushing several strings with the RH thumb is
   also far more common in the 19th c. guitar repertoires mentioned (see
   the thumb rest stroke thread) than other classical genres, as are huge
   "slides," like 2nd fret to 10th fret, and sometimes back -- potentially
   disastrous with tied frets!



   I bet Eugene knows a lot more about this than I do.



   In re:  Dave van Ronk:  I'd have to take a closer look, but I think
   Richie Havens frets at least 3 strings, maybe 4, with his thumb.  He's
   using an "open-chord" tuning, of course, with lots of strummed chords.



   Best to all, and keep playing.

   Chris.
   >>> Daniel Winheld  1/21/2010 3:04 PM >>>
   Thank you Stephan for this link. Great to have all this info. As to
   using that left thumb effectively, I appreciate how you mention "the
   right" 6 course lute. Mine sure isn't, and it is not a particularly
   wide neck. On the other hand, coming from (originally) classical
   guitar which frowned vehemently on such LH usage, I have no skill or
   experience with this technique- which I have seen used by
   non-classical guitarists ONLY on very narrow neck guitars; but some
   of them do it with exquisite skill, rolling the hand into the neck
   and slipping that thumb over and onto the 6th string quickly, neatly,
   and accurately- then rolling right off it, and coming around almost
   instantly to do a full and very correct bar chord. I read somewhere
   that David van Ronk, (very large hands) could even fret the 5th
   string with his thumb.
   Different story for me, and of course anyone with 7 or more courses.
   I dug out my Capirola and tried out the fingering that I posted
   hastily last night, (the essence of which involves using the 2nd,
   middle finger instead of the putative thumb) and all works very
   smoothly for me at any reasonable tempo. Nice piece, too- I hadn't
   noticed it before.
   I hope we can look forward to the day when some lute players- perhaps
   specialists in 5 and very early 6 course lutes- can show us these
   techniques in use.
   Dan
   >The problem of fretting the sixth string pretty much goes away if
   >you have the right 6-course lute and can stop it with your thumb.
   >This is a common technique with electric guitar and seems to be
   >indicated as a possibility in the introduction to the Capirola MS (
   >http://www.marincola.com/lutebot1.txt
   ).
   >
   >Stephen Fryer
   --
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References

   Visible links
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   Hidden links:
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[LUTE] Re: Help with LH fingering

[Leonard Williams]

OK--I've had a chance to try out Dan's solution (YMMV--I happen to be a
little inept).  Works a lot better than the barring I was attempting.  The
second and third occurrences present a different shift to the d6f3d2.
Middle finger on the previous d3 moves to d6, while index slides from c2 to
d2?  I'm trying to keep my ring finger out of the way in all this!  It's a
bit of a digital workout.

Leonard

On 1/21/10 2:45 AM, "Daniel Winheld"  wrote:

>  This is the fingering I sent to Leonard. Any thoughts, improvements? Is
>  it clear?
>__
> 
>  In the 4th measure, 2nd beat, prepare by fingering the c-a with the
>  index finger, then the d-f with either index sliding up to "d" or
>  middle finger, (I prefer sliding index) but little finger on "f" fret
>  3rd course in any case and KEEP IT DOWN!
> 
>  Last beat of that measure, the "c" fret, 2nd course, under the first *
>  top line, use index finger. KEEP THE INDEX FINGER ON THAT 2nd COURSE!
>  Next measure, slide the index to the "d" fret, middle finger takes the
>  low 6th course B flat, "d" fret, little finger "f" fret, 3rd course-
>  where it has been since the last measure.
> 
>  Keep middle finger and little finger in place as you slide index finger
>  BACK to 2nd course "c" fret, then back up to "d" fret for last
>  beat/chord of measure 5. Next line, complete position change and back
>  to more normal fingerings.
> 
>  Hope this is clear, it may feel a touch counter-intuitive or weird at
>  first, but it works- and I can't see a smoother way. Please let me know
>  how this works for you, and if I've explained adequately.
> 
>  Dan
> 
>  |  |\
>  |  |  *
>  |  |
> __ _a__c__a_ _c__a _a_a_ a
>|_c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|
>|_d__f_|_|___f_|f|_f_f_|
>|__|_|_|_|_|
>|_a|_a___|_a___|_a___|_|
>|__|_|_|_|_d___|
> 
>   *
> _ _ _ a _
>|_c__a|_a_a_|_c__a__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__a|
>|_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_f_f_|_d__c__d_|
>|___e_|e|_|_|___e_|
>|_a___|_|_a___|_|_a___|
>|_|_a___|_|_d___|_|
> 
> 
>|
>|
>  *|.
> _ _ a _ _ ___
>|_a_a_|_c__a__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__a|_a_a_|_c_|
>|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_f_f_|_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d_|
>|e|_|_|___e_|e|___|
>|_|_a___|_|_a___|_|_a_|
>|_a___|_|_d___|_|_a___|___|
> 
> 
> 
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> --
> 
>  Rachel Winheld
>  820 Colusa Avenue
>  Berkeley, CA 94707
>  rwinh...@comcast.net
>  Tel 510.526.0242
> 
>  Cell 510.915.4276
> 
>  --
> 

[LUTE] Re: Help with LH fingering

[Martin Shepherd]

Hi Dan and All,

I think Dan's fingering is good, and it follows a good principle - the 
further you have to reach, the longer the finger you use.  We have 
mostly been taught to play two notes on the same fret by turning the 
hand to use the first finger for the note nearest the bass and the 
second for the note nearest the treble, but sometimes it makes sense to 
do it the other way round.  Consider c1a2a4c5: if you use the first 
finger for the c5 it is very difficult for it to clear the open 4th 
course, but if you use the first finger for c1 and the second (longer) 
finger for c5 it gets easier.  If I remember correctly, this fingering 
is given somewhere in Newsidler.  I often use the third finger for the 
c1, but it depends on context.


Another alternative for the passage in question from Capirola is to just 
not attempt to hold the bass - it's surprising how effective (inaudible) 
this can be if done well.


Using the thumb over the top of the neck is a technique regularly used 
by jazz and electric guitarists generally, and if paintings are anything 
to go by, 16th C lutenists as well.  It's great if you can do it.  
Personally, I find my thumb too short, it's not worth the struggle.


Best to all,

Martin



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[LUTE] Re: Help with LH fingering

[Daniel Winheld]

Thank you Stephan for this link. Great to have all this info. As to 
using that left thumb effectively, I appreciate how you mention "the 
right" 6 course lute. Mine sure isn't, and it is not a particularly 
wide neck. On the other hand, coming from (originally) classical 
guitar which frowned vehemently on such LH usage, I have no skill or 
experience with this technique- which I have seen used by 
non-classical guitarists ONLY on very narrow neck guitars; but some 
of them do it with exquisite skill, rolling the hand into the neck 
and slipping that thumb over and onto the 6th string quickly, neatly, 
and accurately- then rolling right off it, and coming around almost 
instantly to do a full and very correct bar chord. I read somewhere 
that David van Ronk, (very large hands) could even fret the 5th 
string with his thumb.

Different story for me, and of course anyone with 7 or more courses. 
I dug out my Capirola and tried out the fingering that I posted 
hastily last night, (the essence of which involves using the 2nd, 
middle finger instead of the putative thumb) and all works very 
smoothly for me at any reasonable tempo. Nice piece, too- I hadn't 
noticed it before.

I hope we can look forward to the day when some lute players- perhaps 
specialists in 5 and very early 6 course lutes- can show us these 
techniques in use.

Dan


>The problem of fretting the sixth string pretty much goes away if 
>you have the right 6-course lute and can stop it with your thumb. 
>This is a common technique with electric guitar and seems to be 
>indicated as a possibility in the introduction to the Capirola MS ( 
>http://www.marincola.com/lutebot1.txt ).
>
>Stephen Fryer

-- 



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[LUTE] Re: Help with LH fingering

[Stephen Fryer]

Leonard Williams wrote:

I've been working on Capirola's "Baleto da balar bello".  The middle section
has some simple looking but tricky chord shifts which I've been trying in
various ways to make a smooth transition.  Any recommendations?  The section
is below in ascii tab (use a monospace font).  The tricky palces are marked
with an *, but I'm not sure of the accuracy of the marking (e.g., the dotted
note toward the end belongs at the end--can't seem to find the right font on
my machine!).  It's a Bb chord going to an Em?
Thanks and regards,
Leonard Williams 


The problem of fretting the sixth string pretty much goes away if you 
have the right 6-course lute and can stop it with your thumb.  This is a 
common technique with electric guitar and seems to be indicated as a 
possibility in the introduction to the Capirola MS ( 
http://www.marincola.com/lutebot1.txt ).


Stephen Fryer



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Help with LH fingering

[Daniel Winheld]

   This is the fingering I sent to Leonard. Any thoughts, improvements? Is
   it clear?
 __

   In the 4th measure, 2nd beat, prepare by fingering the c-a with the
   index finger, then the d-f with either index sliding up to "d" or
   middle finger, (I prefer sliding index) but little finger on "f" fret
   3rd course in any case and KEEP IT DOWN!

   Last beat of that measure, the "c" fret, 2nd course, under the first *
   top line, use index finger. KEEP THE INDEX FINGER ON THAT 2nd COURSE!
   Next measure, slide the index to the "d" fret, middle finger takes the
   low 6th course B flat, "d" fret, little finger "f" fret, 3rd course-
   where it has been since the last measure.

   Keep middle finger and little finger in place as you slide index finger
   BACK to 2nd course "c" fret, then back up to "d" fret for last
   beat/chord of measure 5. Next line, complete position change and back
   to more normal fingerings.

   Hope this is clear, it may feel a touch counter-intuitive or weird at
   first, but it works- and I can't see a smoother way. Please let me know
   how this works for you, and if I've explained adequately.

   Dan

   |  |\
   |  |  *
   |  |
  __ _a__c__a_ _c__a _a_a_ a
 |_c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|
 |_d__f_|_|___f_|f|_f_f_|
 |__|_|_|_|_|
 |_a|_a___|_a___|_a___|_|
 |__|_|_|_|_d___|

*
  _ _ _ a _
 |_c__a|_a_a_|_c__a__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__a|
 |_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_f_f_|_d__c__d_|
 |___e_|e|_|_|___e_|
 |_a___|_|_a___|_|_a___|
 |_|_a___|_|_d___|_|


 |
 |
   *|.
  _ _ a _ _ ___
 |_a_a_|_c__a__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__a|_a_a_|_c_|
 |_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_f_f_|_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d_|
 |e|_|_|___e_|e|___|
 |_|_a___|_|_a___|_|_a_|
 |_a___|_|_d___|_|_a___|___|



 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

   Rachel Winheld
   820 Colusa Avenue
   Berkeley, CA 94707
   rwinh...@comcast.net
   Tel 510.526.0242

   Cell 510.915.4276

   --

[LUTE] Re: Help in reading the name of a piece?

[wikla]

Hi all,

thanks again to Andreas and others for clearing the name of a piece:

> ou este Vous allé = J.-B.Lully, Trios de la Chambre: LWV 35/11 SMT I, p.84

Now I've made a (modest) version of that piece (see the tab in
  http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Tiorba/Res1106/OuEsteF36.pdf)
to the YouTube (also in Vimeo after their long lasting processing...), see
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzxj1ZQgN9g

The piece is not so easy to play, while it still is "easy to listen"
stuff in the real "rococo" style... Especially some bass lines are a
little tricky... ;-)

Anyhow thanks to everyone who helped! And BTW, if you find out more clues
of the origins of the song, let me know! At least I can hear something
familiar in some sections of the melody, some song already from 16th
century?

Well, the best to all,

Arto



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[LUTE] Re: Help in reading the name of a piece?

[Mathias Rösel]

Funny, the mark of my copy reads Paris, Bibliothéque Nationale, Rés.
1575 (not 1106). Andreas is certainly correct with Ou este vous allé.

Blessed are those who speak French. When I got my copy, I transcribed
the words as "Air - Elle voul aller". My oh my...

Mathias

 schrieb:
> 
> Thanks to everyone for help!
> 
> Andreas suggested:
> 
> > ou este Vous allé = J.-B.Lully, Trios de la Chambre: LWV 35/11
> > SMT I, p.84
> 
> This could be the piece. I tried to google by this idea, but could not
> find any written music.  This seems to be a French popular song anyhow.
> And at least also Hotteterre seems to have been arranging it. Also there
> seems to be a Playford connection to this piece! But I couldn't find
> the music.
> 
> Anyhow, if Andreas has the LWV 35/11, could you compare the melody to the
> theorbo version? Or anyone else? See the tab in:
>   http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Tiorba/Res1106/OuEsteF36.pdf
> 
> Arto



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[LUTE] Re: Help in reading the name of a piece?

[wikla]

Thanks to everyone for help!

Andreas suggested:

> ou este Vous allé = J.-B.Lully, Trios de la Chambre: LWV 35/11
> SMT I, p.84

This could be the piece. I tried to google by this idea, but could not
find any written music.  This seems to be a French popular song anyhow.
And at least also Hotteterre seems to have been arranging it. Also there
seems to be a Playford connection to this piece! But I couldn't find
the music.

Anyhow, if Andreas has the LWV 35/11, could you compare the melody to the
theorbo version? Or anyone else? See the tab in:
  http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Tiorba/Res1106/OuEsteF36.pdf

Arto



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[LUTE] Re: Help in reading the name of a piece?

[Bernd Haegemann]

letter really looks more like an a than an e).  Note the tail on the end
of alle~, could be shorthand for a longer word.


accent aigu.,,, drifted a little bit to the right

makes it "allé".

B





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[LUTE] Re: Help in reading the name of a piece?

[demery]

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009, Andreas Schlegel  said:

> ou este Vous allé = J.-B.Lully, Trios de la Chambre: LWV 35/11
> SMT I, p.84

Possible, comparision of the music would confirm, but the title in artos
facsimile differs from that.

o(s)i  a(fl)e Vous alle~

is my reading, more examples of the same hand would help, unambiguous
examples of h,s,f,t at least, also some initial e (the second words first
letter really looks more like an a than an e).  Note the tail on the end
of alle~, could be shorthand for a longer word.
-- 
Dana Emery




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[LUTE] Re: Help in reading the name of a piece?

[David van Ooijen]

Wow, you beat me with a quicker answer. And more complete!

David

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Andreas Schlegel  wrote:
> ou este Vous allé = J.-B.Lully, Trios de la Chambre: LWV 35/11
> SMT I, p.84
>
> Andreas
>
> Am 03.06.2009 um 09:43 schrieb Arto Wikla:
>
>> Dear Collective Wisdom,
>>
>> I try to interprete a handwritten name of a piece in ms. Rés-1106,
>> but I cannot be sure, how it really reads. To me it could be "ohi
>> este Vous allé" or "ohi affe Vous allé". Could someone help? I have
>> a photo of the name in file
>>   http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Tiorba/deVisee/OhiAlles.jpg
>>
>> Perhaps someone also knows a French song of baroque or renaissance
>> by a name that looks something like this?
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Arto
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> Andreas Schlegel
> Eckstr. 6
> CH-5737 Menziken
> +41 (0)62 771 47 07
> lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
>
>
> --
>



-- 
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***

[LUTE] Re: Help in reading the name of a piece?

[David van Ooijen]

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Arto Wikla  wrote:
> Dear Collective Wisdom,
>
> I try to interprete a handwritten name of a piece in ms. Rés-1106, but I
> cannot be sure, how it really reads. To me it could be "ohi este Vous allé"
> or "ohi affe Vous allé". Could someone help? I have a photo of the name in
> file
>  http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Tiorba/deVisee/OhiAlles.jpg

Folio 36 r. Not everyone's copy is as good or bad. I can read in mine:
ou este Vous allé.

David
-- 
***
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davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: Help in reading the name of a piece?

[Arto Wikla]

Great Andreas! Thanks!

It did not take many minutes to get the answer! Lutelist is marvellous!

Thanks again!

Arto


Andreas Schlegel wrote:

ou este Vous allé = J.-B.Lully, Trios de la Chambre: LWV 35/11
SMT I, p.84

Andreas

Am 03.06.2009 um 09:43 schrieb Arto Wikla:


Dear Collective Wisdom,

I try to interprete a handwritten name of a piece in ms. Rés-1106, but 
I cannot be sure, how it really reads. To me it could be "ohi este 
Vous allé" or "ohi affe Vous allé". Could someone help? I have a photo 
of the name in file

  http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Tiorba/deVisee/OhiAlles.jpg

Perhaps someone also knows a French song of baroque or renaissance by 
a name that looks something like this?


Thanks in advance!

Arto



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Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch 

[LUTE] Re: Help in reading the name of a piece?

[Andreas Schlegel]

ou este Vous allé = J.-B.Lully, Trios de la Chambre: LWV 35/11
SMT I, p.84

Andreas

Am 03.06.2009 um 09:43 schrieb Arto Wikla:

> Dear Collective Wisdom,
>
> I try to interprete a handwritten name of a piece in ms. Rés-1106,  
> but I cannot be sure, how it really reads. To me it could be "ohi  
> este Vous allé" or "ohi affe Vous allé". Could someone help? I have  
> a photo of the name in file
>   http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Tiorba/deVisee/OhiAlles.jpg
>
> Perhaps someone also knows a French song of baroque or renaissance  
> by a name that looks something like this?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Arto
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch


--

[LUTE] Re: help, please !

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Thank you Eugene and Dana for trying to find this article online. In fact David 
van Ooijen joined me and proposed to send a copy of the article. So 
everything's OK !

Thank you and all the best,

Jean-Marie

>
>On Thu, May 28, 2009, "Eugene C. Braig IV"  said:
>
>> There seem to be many articles online to cite the Levy article, but I can't
>> seem to find the Levy article itself, Including on JSTOR.
>
>The suffolk county library system used to be a client of JSTOR, with
>access open to all cardholders in the county, sadly that must have proven
>too expensive because it ended last year.  Many large librarys are still
>subscribers, including colleges with music programs, perhaps osu?  worth a
>tal with an information desk librarian.
>
>Even with access to the article itself blocked, I believe JSTOR allows the
>search engines access to its index pages, should be possible to at least
>know if JSTOR does in fact catalog it.
>
>-- 
>Dana Emery
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>---
>Orange vous informe que cet  e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. 
>Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.
>
>



jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
http://poirierjm.free.fr

[LUTE] Re: help, please !

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
> Behalf Of dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 9:56 AM
> To: 'Lute'
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: help, please !
> 
> On Thu, May 28, 2009, "Eugene C. Braig IV"  said:
> 
> > There seem to be many articles online to cite the Levy article, but I
> can't
> > seem to find the Levy article itself, Including on JSTOR.
> 
> The suffolk county library system used to be a client of JSTOR, with
> access open to all cardholders in the county, sadly that must have proven
> too expensive because it ended last year.  Many large librarys are still
> subscribers, including colleges with music programs, perhaps osu?  worth a
> tal with an information desk librarian.
> 
> Even with access to the article itself blocked, I believe JSTOR allows the
> search engines access to its index pages, should be possible to at least
> know if JSTOR does in fact catalog it.
> 

[Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, OSU, where I work, does give me full access to
JSTOR.  I simply cannot find the Levy article itself on a direct search of
the JSTOR system or reference to the article itself on JSTOR with google or
even google scholar.  What I can find is a multitude of articles to have
cited Levy.

Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: help, please !

[demery]

On Thu, May 28, 2009, "Eugene C. Braig IV"  said:

> There seem to be many articles online to cite the Levy article, but I can't
> seem to find the Levy article itself, Including on JSTOR.

The suffolk county library system used to be a client of JSTOR, with
access open to all cardholders in the county, sadly that must have proven
too expensive because it ended last year.  Many large librarys are still
subscribers, including colleges with music programs, perhaps osu?  worth a
tal with an information desk librarian.

Even with access to the article itself blocked, I believe JSTOR allows the
search engines access to its index pages, should be possible to at least
know if JSTOR does in fact catalog it.

-- 
Dana Emery




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help, please !

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

There seem to be many articles online to cite the Levy article, but I can't
seem to find the Levy article itself, Including on JSTOR.

Sorry,
Eugene

> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
> Behalf Of Jean-Marie Poirier
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 2:09 AM
> To: Lute
> Subject: [LUTE] help, please !
> 
> Dear collective wisdom,
> 
> I am desperately lookinf for tis article : Keneth Jay LEVY. "Susanne un
> jour" : the history of a 16th century chanson. which appeared in Annales
> Musicologiques, Volume I, 1953p. 375-408.
> If someone on the list had access to this article and was willing to
> forward it to me, I would be terribly grateful !
> Unfortunately I have no access to JSTOR... :-(
> 
> Thanks in advance for any possible help.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Jean-Marie
> 
> 
> 
> jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help, please !

[David van Ooijen]

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier
 wrote:
> I am desperately lookinf for tis article : Keneth Jay LEVY. "Susanne un jour" 
> : the history of a 16th century chanson. which appeared in Annales 
> Musicologiques, Volume I, 1953p. 375-408.

It's in the library here in The Hague, so if nobody sends it to you
today, I'll go and copy/scan it for you.
Let me know!

David

-- 
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[Ed Durbrow]

On May 22, 2009, at 1:29 AM, 
 wrote:

>
>Roman,
>
>Pat is indeed a great pedagogue, but only available
> regularly to
>those in NYC.  Word has it that he's been working on a method
> book for
>the past 30 years or so.  No plans for release in the foreseeable
>future, (or ever?) I'm afraid.


 From my interview with POD (http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
PODinterview.html):
How's that lute technique book with Pat Obrien coming along?

Very slowly. We have both been so busy the past ten years, we just
have not had time to finish it. I hope we can get back to work on it
next fall and get it finished in a year or so. But I am an eternal
optimist!


Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/





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[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[demery]

On Thu, May 21, 2009, angevin...@att.net said:

> What the lute world
> lacks is a great pedagogue.  

not entirely convinced of that.

We have some folk who are paying their dues and earning my respect, Ron
McFarlane being just one.  His column in the LSA Q, his videos, and his
dedication to not only regular students all accross the US, but also new
ones (I was one briefly), his work at seminars...

Woudlnt be at all surprised if he someday pulled together a tutorial; but
again, it takes time to formulate and prove your theories (studenti
testees!) and someone with pockets deep enough to underwrite the edition.

as to the online and for free business, the indexing part is pretty easy,
when we have a large enough collection maybe that will happen - hypertext
es wunderbar (Wun-der-bar!  What a per-fect...)
-- 
Dana Emery




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[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[David Tayler]

   I think there is a shortage of great teachers, but there is a basic
   inherent problem in the lute world in the larger sense that will defeat
   any attempt at a systematic attempt to raise the universal level of
   play, which is the adoption of standard music practices. Change will
   have to come to from the students and the conservatories, and there are
   some big changes now along those lines. A fast change would be the
   establishment of a workshop dedicated to musicianship and professional
   training, but there might not be takers as far as students, then again,
   there might. Someone would have to fund it, and the first few years of
   training would have to be free--most candidates for students can't
   afford this kind of training. A starting point would be the simple
   adoption of the curriculum routinely given to organists as far as
   musical skills, continuo & figures, style, ornamentation,
   improvisation, transposition, score reading, and so on. You would have
   to find qualified teachers outside of the lute world, which in a
   conservatory setting would be fairly easy.
   Evaluating the current teachers is very easy, just take the number of
   students and factor the ones who are professionals. And by
   professionals, one would have to apply a reasonable but not draconian
   standard. For example, there are only a handful of players who make
   their living exclusively by playing concerts, so that standard is too
   high. A fifty/fifty split of playing and teaching plus say at least 50
   concerts per year is a reasonable standard that almost anyone can
   achieve. Applying this loose but reasonable standard the lute world has
   a very, very low rate of conversion. And I leave it up to the reader to
   go through any list of teachers to see what their rate is. A good
   conservatory might hit ten percent, and that means that anyone, no
   matter how bad, or how bad the teacher, is included in that figure. I
   would be surprised if the lute world hit 4 percent, and I suspect the
   figure is probably around 2 percent. On the other hand, a highly rated
   harpsichord teacher that I know is way, way, higher. So it is possible,
   and people are doing it, but I don't see anyone in the lute world doing
   this, except in the case of teachers who audition students and only
   take the best, and then only take one or two per year. Then you can get
   up to 40 to 50 percent. Often teachers are recommended without anyone
   looking at their overall track record. Any teacher with 100 students is
   going to crank out a few pros even if the give no lessons, a certain
   number of people will always succeed. The true test is to get that
   percentage higher. The talent base of students would easily support ten
   percent--lute students tend to be smart.  However, it is not as simple
   as as a new curriculum. There are, for example, very few students
   willing to go to Indiana, where there is a comprehensive
   program--which, however, does not require the students to do the basic
   studies required of an organist.  Until this--the student motivation
   issue--is understood and resolved, the problem will remain the same or
   be slow to change. Lute players should set the standard, and that is
   not the case.
   Another simple fix is to require basic musical skills at all lute
   workshops in musicianship, sight singing, score reading, notation,
   ligatures, hexachords and so on. Everyone takes a morning class in it.
   You could take the curriculum from Morley's book. It would be
   historical, and mirror the basic training that renaissance and baroque
   musicians had. Or it could be modeled on a really good program in a
   modern conservatory, but I prefer the historical model because, after
   all, singing from the hexachord gives a great insight into the music,
   and a rudimentary knowledge of Medieval, Renaissance, and Baroque
   paleography is also very important. The problem here is that the
   workshops are super competitive nowadays because there are lots of them
   and few students. So the curriculum has to be attractive but not
   demanding, and that is basically true of all workshops now.
   The good news is one can easily remedy the holes in one's training. My
   daily chore is to simply improve on the things I'm not good at. Today
   it was reading transposing horn parts from Handel's Opera Admeto. Can't
   say I got much better, but I took a whack at it. Tomorrow is the review
   of all the seven-based figured chords including sharp sevens and flat
   sevens. I've done it  hundreds of times, but I easily forget
   dt
 __

   From: "chriswi...@yahoo.com" 
   To: angevin...@att.net; [1]lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
   ; Roman Turovsky 
   Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 6:29:44 PM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela p

[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[angevinews]

I don't really disagree with any of this.  But just because lute
method books are not adequate in and of themselves without some
form of guided instruction from a teacher, does NOT mean that they
would not be of benefit, even very great benefit, to people between
their lessons 2 or 3 times a year.  

In particular I have had in mind the sort of graded
method book series that would *also* supply the
lack of music at appropriate levels of difficulty.  I've listened
to plenty of well meaning folks play in seminar master classes,
struggling with a piece of music that was too hard for their
technical level, and therefore completely unable to make musical
sense of it.  This is the result of thinking that the available
music, which is generally too hard for beginners and early
intermediate players, is what must be played.  Certainly it can
and should be studied.  But nobody starts off a beginning piano
player with a Scarlatti sonata, much less a Beethoven sonata.

I was thinking of a great pedagogue as one who was willing and
able to produce materials, programs of study, whatever, that would
spread the master's knowledge much more widely.  For example, think
how widely the methods of Suzuki have penetrated in the string
world.  And nobody can fault the level of musical playing if you
hear a recital by young students using that method.  Imagine what
similarly informed lute instruction could produce in the way of
heavenly music.

Suzanne
 
  -- Original message from David Rastall : 
--


> On May 21, 2009, at 12:02 PM, angevin...@att.net wrote:
> 
> > The lute world has great performers.  The lute world has great
> > teachers
> > for those in the more advanced states of learning.  What the lute
> > world
> > lacks is a great pedagogue.  Some one with the depth of teaching
> > experience and knowledge to put together the graded series of method
> > books that would enable lute learning to become available to many,
> > instead of the diehard dedicated few.
> 
> There is no shortage of great lute teachers eminently capable of
> teaching at any level of instruction.  Similarly, the level of lute
> pedagogy is not lacking in any way.  The problem is that the United
> States and Europe are both very large places, and one cannot always
> have access to the great teachers.  Two or three lessons a year at an
> annual seminar with one of the "lute gods" might not be enough to
> provide the basis for sound learning throughout the year.  But what
> else can one do!?  If you play the lute, you have to be willing to
> travel.
> 
> Take piano pedagogy, a subject in which some people have Phd's.  Yet
> would any of them advise going out and buying the method books by
> Alfred, Bastien, the Fabers etc., and simply telling people that that
> is all they need to learn the basics of piano playing?  Of course
> not!  They would all agree that pedagogy is useless without the more-
> than-occasional presence of a teacher.  So it is with the lute.
> 
> There are great teachers in every area of music, and yes, they do
> travel around a lot.  But you have to be willing to travel also.
> This is true of any instrument, and any type of musical study.  The
> teachers don't come to you;  you have to go to them.  The way to find
> out about lute pedagogy is as follows:  take a recording device to
> the next seminar workshop you go to.  Record every master class,
> private lesson you take, house concert, if it's allowed, and any
> other event, for example where question-and-answer sessions are going
> on.  Don't just go just with the attitude of taking a week off in
> order to groove on the lute for a week.  And most importantly, keep
> in mind the operative word is workshop, not worship.  Don't go in
> order to worship!  Worshipping the lute gods will avail you nothing.
> To make the most of a seminar workshop week, go armed with specific
> questions, based on clear ideas of YOUR OWN short-term and long-term
> goals on the lute.  Go armed with questions concerning technique,
> performance practice, whatever else you need to know.  I have the
> impression that lute players do not advance as quickly as they could,
> because they spend too much time being in awe of the lute gods.  The
> gods are not there to be adored;  well, one or two of them are, but
> the only ones who are worth anything as teachers are the ones who are
> there for you to pick their brains.
> 
> Also, as a supplemental benefit, the lute mailing list is a fantastic
> source of pedagogical insight.
> 
> David R
> dlu...@verizon.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[David Rastall]

On May 21, 2009, at 12:02 PM, angevin...@att.net wrote:

> The lute world has great performers.  The lute world has great
> teachers
> for those in the more advanced states of learning.  What the lute
> world
> lacks is a great pedagogue.  Some one with the depth of teaching
> experience and knowledge to put together the graded series of method
> books that would enable lute learning to become available to many,
> instead of the diehard dedicated few.

There is no shortage of great lute teachers eminently capable of
teaching at any level of instruction.  Similarly, the level of lute
pedagogy is not lacking in any way.  The problem is that the United
States and Europe are both very large places, and one cannot always
have access to the great teachers.  Two or three lessons a year at an
annual seminar with one of the "lute gods" might not be enough to
provide the basis for sound learning throughout the year.  But what
else can one do!?  If you play the lute, you have to be willing to
travel.

Take piano pedagogy, a subject in which some people have Phd's.  Yet
would any of them advise going out and buying the method books by
Alfred, Bastien, the Fabers etc., and simply telling people that that
is all they need to learn the basics of piano playing?  Of course
not!  They would all agree that pedagogy is useless without the more-
than-occasional presence of a teacher.  So it is with the lute.

There are great teachers in every area of music, and yes, they do
travel around a lot.  But you have to be willing to travel also.
This is true of any instrument, and any type of musical study.  The
teachers don't come to you;  you have to go to them.  The way to find
out about lute pedagogy is as follows:  take a recording device to
the next seminar workshop you go to.  Record every master class,
private lesson you take, house concert, if it's allowed, and any
other event, for example where question-and-answer sessions are going
on.  Don't just go just with the attitude of taking a week off in
order to groove on the lute for a week.  And most importantly, keep
in mind the operative word is workshop, not worship.  Don't go in
order to worship!  Worshipping the lute gods will avail you nothing.
To make the most of a seminar workshop week, go armed with specific
questions, based on clear ideas of YOUR OWN short-term and long-term
goals on the lute.  Go armed with questions concerning technique,
performance practice, whatever else you need to know.  I have the
impression that lute players do not advance as quickly as they could,
because they spend too much time being in awe of the lute gods.  The
gods are not there to be adored;  well, one or two of them are, but
the only ones who are worth anything as teachers are the ones who are
there for you to pick their brains.

Also, as a supplemental benefit, the lute mailing list is a fantastic
source of pedagogical insight.

David R
dlu...@verizon.net




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[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[Roman Turovsky]

Not only great, but often called to undo damage inflicted by supposedly 
greater pedagogues.

RT

- Original Message - 
From: 
To: ; "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" ; 
"Roman Turovsky" 

Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players


Roman,

Pat is indeed a great pedagogue, but only available regularly to those in 
NYC. Word has it that he's been working on a method book for the past 30 
years or so. No plans for release in the foreseeable future, (or ever?) I'm 
afraid.



Chris

--- On Thu, 5/21/09, Roman Turovsky  wrote:


From: Roman Turovsky 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
To: angevin...@att.net, "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" 
Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 12:18 PM


Have you ever heard of Pat O'Brien?
RT


From: 

The lute world has great performers. The lute world has great teachers
for those in the more advanced states of learning. What the lute world
lacks is a great pedagogue. Some one with the depth of teaching
experience and knowledge to put together the graded series of method
books that would enable lute learning to become available to many,
instead of the diehard dedicated few.

But indeed, perhaps there is no market. And perhaps what market there
might be has grown to expect all their lute music on line and for free

Suzanne





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[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[chriswilke]

   Roman,

   Pat is indeed a great pedagogue, but only available regularly to
   those in NYC.  Word has it that he's been working on a method book for
   the past 30 years or so.  No plans for release in the foreseeable
   future, (or ever?) I'm afraid.


   Chris
   --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

 From: Roman Turovsky 
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
 To: angevin...@att.net, "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu"
 
 Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 12:18 PM

   Have you ever heard of Pat O'Brien?
   RT
   From: <[1]angevin...@att.net>
   > The lute world has great performers.  The lute world has great
   teachers
   > for those in the more advanced states of learning.  What the lute
   world
   > lacks is a great pedagogue.  Some one with the depth of teaching
   > experience and knowledge to put together the graded series of method
   > books that would enable lute learning to become available to many,
   > instead of the diehard dedicated few.
   >
   > But indeed, perhaps there is no market.  And perhaps what market
   there
   > might be has grown to expect all their lute music on line and for
   free
   >
   > Suzanne
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc550.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=angevin...@att.net
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[Roman Turovsky]

Have you ever heard of Pat O'Brien?
RT


From: 

The lute world has great performers.  The lute world has great teachers
for those in the more advanced states of learning.  What the lute world
lacks is a great pedagogue.  Some one with the depth of teaching
experience and knowledge to put together the graded series of method
books that would enable lute learning to become available to many,
instead of the diehard dedicated few.

But indeed, perhaps there is no market.  And perhaps what market there
might be has grown to expect all their lute music on line and for free

Suzanne





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[angevinews]

> A major problem is that those who would do this best are struggling to
> stay awake at the wheel as they drive from one gig to another, paying
> bills and eating the small profits.  
> 
> Frederick Noads books for Guitar come to mind, 

The lute world has great performers.  The lute world has great teachers
for those in the more advanced states of learning.  What the lute world
lacks is a great pedagogue.  Some one with the depth of teaching
experience and knowledge to put together the graded series of method
books that would enable lute learning to become available to many,
instead of the diehard dedicated few.

But indeed, perhaps there is no market.  And perhaps what market there
might be has grown to expect all their lute music on line and for free

Suzanne



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[demery]

On Thu, May 21, 2009, chriswi...@yahoo.com said:

>  here's 150 pieces, including virtuoso fantasias by Dowland and Milano; 

Some of that is useful, both as a challenge, and giving notes to what you
have memorized from recordings.  Also, often times its what makes the book
interesting to a publisher.  Scales dont sell (yes, I know there are books
of them in staff nottion, students dont buy them on impulse, only when
teacher requires it; well, I know I didnt, and I am reminded every time I
move just how much I have invested in music).  Trick is for the student
with the virtuoso stuff is to be shown how to approach it, perhaps
simplifying it in places; perhaps focusing on an easy section for now,
rest to be mastered later.

Yes, there is also a need for drill, but books of scales, parallel thirds,
chords, and other material for drill is out there, maybe in score, maybe
for other instruments (even voice) but its there.

Morleys canzonets a2 and a3 are excellent practice material, so is
susato's dancerie (schott edition for recorders).  American Recorder
Society has one small collection of pieces taken from the works of H Issac
which provide very challenging studies on rhythmic issues (playing 4
against 3, proportional change with pickup note...).

Yes, best if it comes from the teacher who can judge what is useful to the
student, but not essential, I too have had an ecclectic set of lessons,
weekly in several sessions over three years for voice  as a boy
choirister; couple months of lessons in folk guitar style; about a year on
clarinet; two for fiddle; couple months consort coaching preceded by some
months on recorder (the ensemble needed it more than I, so I played patron
for the first and only time in my life, nice to be well employed); odd
ones here and there on lute.

Formal lessons cost both money and preparation time, largely wasted if you
dont, wont, or cant practice on points raised in the lesson.

>Rarely do I see invented modern exercises
>or etudes to help with finding notes, much less fineries like tone
>production.  

tone production is a really hard thing to get from prose.  Should be
mentioned in all tutors as something to be worked on, perhaps with tape
recorder (or computerized microphone) for playback and comparisons.  Ron
McFarlane has touched on aspects of it in his LSA columns.

LH fingering is for many a personal thing, both for guitar and lute,
probably all fretedd strings (yes, even the bowed ones),  the topic came
up in discussions at the collegium musicum I playedd with for some time,
the gamba players were mostly modern string players too, and for them
fingering was mostly a thing long ago learned by rote.  Their challenge is
easier tho, mostly monophonic.  Our challenge is much harder, especially
when virtuoso passages take youup the neck into unfamiliar territory where
open strings entice you into passagi not practiced often enough (often
seen in works of Torrega for guitar)

> I dream that someday someone will publish

Niche market, doubt anyone with deep resources is gonna take an interest.

LS or LSA comes to mind, the LS does have a start on that with a bunch of
publications aimed at beginning and intermediate skilled players.

A major problem is that those who would do this best are struggling to
stay awake at the wheel as they drive from one gig to another, paying
bills and eating the small profits.  

Frederick Noads books for Guitar come to mind, I worked with those,
Carulli, "100 World Favorites for Classical Guitar", and selected Sor
etudes for years, augmented with the odd Villa-lobos etude, flamenco
collection, and other material.  Noad showed me the way to the lute
repetoire, after that I retuned my guitar and tried (vainly) to save up
the cost of a proper instrument...
-- 
Dana Emery




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[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[chriswilke]

Stephen,
You've hit the nail on the head as far as lute tutors.  I never
   used a method book.  Instead, I sought out some very good teachers.
   Even though I would often drive for hours to take a lesson, I was
   fortunate to live so close to people who knew what they were doing.
   Unfortunately, my instruction was always sporadic and there are still
   huge gaps in my technique, which I'm only now beginning to close since
   I'm finally in a regular lesson situation.
   I didn't start out with Damiani's book, but I believe its OK.  Most
   other lute methods proceed from an extremely faulty pedagogical base.
   They will usually begin something like this: here's how to tune the
   lute; here's how to read tab; here's how to play a note; here's 150
   pieces, including virtuoso fantasias by Dowland and Milano; now here's
   how to read German tab, etc.  Rarely do I see invented modern exercises
   or etudes to help with finding notes, much less fineries like tone
   production.  That's really what most tutors for other instruments are
   about.  The situation gets worse with the instruments with loads of
   basses.
Videos are a start.  Sadly, most of us are never aware of what
   we're actually doing, (Its so easy to convince yourself, "I'm doing it
   exactly like the guy in the vid," - or worse, "Why don't I sound like
   the guy in the vid?  I'm doing it exactly like him!") so there simply
   is no substitute for finding a qualified teacher.
   Chris
   --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Stephen Arndt  wrote:

I dream that someday someone will publish a lute
   method with systematic, step-by-step video instructions to supplement
   as far
   as possible the absence of a live teacher.

   --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[Steve Ramey]

   David,
   Those are great!  They're just about my speed.  I'd have given anything
   when I started learning by myself for a few lute videos like your
   guitar videos explaining thumb under and some other things.
   Thanks!
   Steve
 __

   From: David van Ooijen 
   To: Rob MacKillop 
   Cc: angevin...@att.net; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 5:46:31 PM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players
   Two days a week I teach guitar. For my really young pupils and their
   mothers (fathers?) I made a few videos explaining and showing basic
   techniques and exercises. These children are too young to remember my
   instructions for the week in between lessons, are often awed or
   distracted in the lessons anyway, and when mothers want to help at
   home they are at a loss because they don't know what or how either.
   The results are pretty good so far: little kids starting a discussion
   on correct guitar technique with me in stead of talking about their
   game computer, they at least _know_ how it should be done and will
   produce correct technique when asked (it's not that hey suddenly have
   become great guitar players, of course), I can skip some of the
   repetitive explanations in the lessons and somehow the upils take me
   more seriously when I ask them to play with 'correct' technique.
   YouTube is their world and they take that more seriously than some
   adult who is trying to teach them guitar. Even if the guy on YouTube
   is the same adult who's trying to teach them guitar ... Weird world.
   If I take the trouble of telling them even on YouTube how it how it
   should be done, I must be right after all, something like that.  And,
   for many, I'm suddenly 'cool' because I'm on YouTube. ;-) Some of the
   little older kids (10 to 12ish) think I'm silly and make a fool of
   myself, though they still see the point, and some adults definitively
   think I am making a fool of myself. I can't blame them, looking at
   myself, but it's an experiment and I'm willing to be the fool if it
   serves a good purpose.
   The videos are in Dutch, aimed at kids of 6 to 8 (max) years old, but
   you can get an idea of what it's about:
   [1]http://www.youtube.com/user/MeesterDavidGitaar
   enjoy
   David
   On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Rob MacKillop
   <[2]luteplay...@googlemail.com> wrote:
   >   This is all good food for thought. I'm sure there are players on
   this
   >   list who could help. For thumb under technique I would look at
   Valerie
   >   Sauvage's videos. I don't play thumb under myself, in fact I find
   it
   >   impossible. A close up video would indeed be helpful. I'll try to
   do
   >   some videos later, although my technique is probably not worth
   looking
   >   at too closely. No matter how many treatises I read on technique,
   no
   >   matter how much sound advice I get from professional players and
   >   teachers, I still end up, for better or worse, playing and sounding
   >   like me - I'm stuck with me. So maybe I won't be making technique
   >   videos, but I hope to help in other areas.
   >
   >
   >
   >   Rob MacKillop
   >
   >   --
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   --
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

References

   1. http://www.youtube.com/user/MeesterDavidGitaar
   2. mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[David van Ooijen]

Two days a week I teach guitar. For my really young pupils and their
mothers (fathers?) I made a few videos explaining and showing basic
techniques and exercises. These children are too young to remember my
instructions for the week in between lessons, are often awed or
distracted in the lessons anyway, and when mothers want to help at
home they are at a loss because they don't know what or how either.
The results are pretty good so far: little kids starting a discussion
on correct guitar technique with me in stead of talking about their
game computer, they at least _know_ how it should be done and will
produce correct technique when asked (it's not that hey suddenly have
become great guitar players, of course), I can skip some of the
repetitive explanations in the lessons and somehow the upils take me
more seriously when I ask them to play with 'correct' technique.
YouTube is their world and they take that more seriously than some
adult who is trying to teach them guitar. Even if the guy on YouTube
is the same adult who's trying to teach them guitar ... Weird world.
If I take the trouble of telling them even on YouTube how it how it
should be done, I must be right after all, something like that.  And,
for many, I'm suddenly 'cool' because I'm on YouTube. ;-) Some of the
little older kids (10 to 12ish) think I'm silly and make a fool of
myself, though they still see the point, and some adults definitively
think I am making a fool of myself. I can't blame them, looking at
myself, but it's an experiment and I'm willing to be the fool if it
serves a good purpose.
The videos are in Dutch, aimed at kids of 6 to 8 (max) years old, but
you can get an idea of what it's about:

http://www.youtube.com/user/MeesterDavidGitaar

enjoy

David

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Rob MacKillop
 wrote:
>   This is all good food for thought. I'm sure there are players on this
>   list who could help. For thumb under technique I would look at Valerie
>   Sauvage's videos. I don't play thumb under myself, in fact I find it
>   impossible. A close up video would indeed be helpful. I'll try to do
>   some videos later, although my technique is probably not worth looking
>   at too closely. No matter how many treatises I read on technique, no
>   matter how much sound advice I get from professional players and
>   teachers, I still end up, for better or worse, playing and sounding
>   like me - I'm stuck with me. So maybe I won't be making technique
>   videos, but I hope to help in other areas.
>
>
>
>   Rob MacKillop
>
>   --
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>



-- 
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***

[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[Rob MacKillop]

   This is all good food for thought. I'm sure there are players on this
   list who could help. For thumb under technique I would look at Valerie
   Sauvage's videos. I don't play thumb under myself, in fact I find it
   impossible. A close up video would indeed be helpful. I'll try to do
   some videos later, although my technique is probably not worth looking
   at too closely. No matter how many treatises I read on technique, no
   matter how much sound advice I get from professional players and
   teachers, I still end up, for better or worse, playing and sounding
   like me - I'm stuck with me. So maybe I won't be making technique
   videos, but I hope to help in other areas.



   Rob MacKillop

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[angevinews]

I guess I would consider myself more of an early intermediate player
   now, but I remember clearly the time of being a beginner - one living
   far away from a teacher or anybody else who played lute really.  These
   are the things that I wanted, or that I think would have helped me
   more.
   Good music!  There is more beginner stuff around now than there was
   then largely because of the publications of the Lute Society.  But even
   some of that is uninteresting fluff of what seems to me rather low
   quality musically.  Just because it was in some historical beginner's
   book/manuscript doesn't mean its either really suitable for a beginner
   or very good music.  As something of a composer, I supplied my lack by
   writing my own little pieces, often based on historical models, at the
   level I could play.  But not everybody can do that.
   A good method book.  The Damiani book is pretty good, but wasn't out
   when I was at that point.  But still, the average person needs more
   pieces that illustrate whatever the point is than are usually contained
   in the book.
   Somebody knowledgeable to watch.  Here is where video clips can now be
   a real help.  I'd read about thumb under, but it was really when I went
   to my first seminar that I actually understood what was being said by
   watching people doing it.  So I think short, well-focused videos on
   particular technical points would be helpful.  Teaching material on
   musical interpretation is also a possibility, but much harder to work
   logistically and get something from for the student.
   Summer seminars.  I just want to add this to my list because I think
   its really, really helpful for beginners to connect up with other
   people, hear music played live, maybe have an opportunity to take a
   beginners' class, and that sort of thing.  The LSA seminars here in the
   States are very good, and highly recommended for beginners.  But in the
   meantime, working with the above things would still be helpful.
   Suzanne

   --


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[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[Ron Fletcher]

Stephan has said my thoughts exactly.  I'm sure a lot of us only play for
our own pleasure, but would love to be able to improve and play properly.
Thanks to Rob and a few others who are willing to bring beginners and
students on to a more competent level.  
Sharing video-clips is an excellent method.  Though equally, I would like to
see that used alongside tablature, or to say which source it is from, that
we may follow and understand the fingering better. As Rob says, his way may
not always be the best way.  But anything will be better than muddling
through on our own.

Ron (UK) Not too shy lurker

 


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Stephen Arndt
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 3:18 PM
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

Dear Rob,

As one definitely in the not-so-advanced (yes, you may say that) category, I
greatly appreciate your efforts. It was very interesting and instructive to
get a glimpse of the kind of things you keep in mind when approaching a
piece, and I for one would welcome any and all forms of help from the
professionals among us. Never having had a teacher or a single lute lesson,
I have to struggle along the best I can, and I am afraid that the old
adage--"Whoever has himself for a teacher has a fool for a student"--is in
my case all too true. The worst part is the not-so-blissful ignorance of not
even knowing what I don't know or am doing wrong. I have no idea what a
teacher would teach me were I to study at a conservatory, since I have never
had such an experience, but I dream that someday someone will publish a lute
method with systematic, step-by-step video instructions to supplement as far
as possible the absence of a live teacher. In the meantime, instructional
videos, such as the one you made on baroque guitar strumming, are immensely
helpful, and a series that would cover all the basics (tone production,
articulation, phrasing, fingerings, etc.) would be an invaluable resource.
Thank you for your kindness and generosity in taking the time to make a
start on this initiative.

A not-so-sly lurker,

Stephen Arndt




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[Stephen Arndt]

Dear Rob,

As one definitely in the not-so-advanced (yes, you may say that) category, I
greatly appreciate your efforts. It was very interesting and instructive to
get a glimpse of the kind of things you keep in mind when approaching a
piece, and I for one would welcome any and all forms of help from the
professionals among us. Never having had a teacher or a single lute lesson,
I have to struggle along the best I can, and I am afraid that the old
adage--"Whoever has himself for a teacher has a fool for a student"--is in
my case all too true. The worst part is the not-so-blissful ignorance of not
even knowing what I don't know or am doing wrong. I have no idea what a
teacher would teach me were I to study at a conservatory, since I have never
had such an experience, but I dream that someday someone will publish a lute
method with systematic, step-by-step video instructions to supplement as far
as possible the absence of a live teacher. In the meantime, instructional
videos, such as the one you made on baroque guitar strumming, are immensely
helpful, and a series that would cover all the basics (tone production,
articulation, phrasing, fingerings, etc.) would be an invaluable resource.
Thank you for your kindness and generosity in taking the time to make a
start on this initiative.

A not-so-sly lurker,

Stephen Arndt

- Original Message - 
From: "Rob MacKillop" 

To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" 
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:40 PM
Subject: [LUTE] help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players



  [I'm cross-posting this from the vihuela list as some lute students
  might find it useful. Remember, the vihuela was tuned the same way as a
  6c lute, so you could play this music on your lute.]



  I don't think we do enough, generally speaking, for the maybe not-so
  advanced (if I may say that) players among us. I have had quite a few
  questions over the years from beginners, post-beginners, and those who
  have hit the brick wall and can't move forward, and maybe we should do
  more to help. Well, with this in mind I've started a page on the
  [1]www.vihuela.eu site which sets out to do just that. I've started
  with a 'duo' (for one instrument) by Fuenllana/Josquin, as, like
  Bermudo, I believe the articulation of vocal lines is one of the most
  crucial yet difficult things to achieve well on the vihuela or lute.
  The page is very much just beginning, so please let me know what you
  would like to see there. I can't promise I'll be able to do all you
  ask...Unfortunately, the vihuela I used for the recording needs some
  attention, and does tend to buzz occasionally...but it's not a CD.



  Anyway, hot foot it to [2]http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm I have the
  score in French tab, an mp3 performance, plus an mp3 of commentary as I
  explore the piece, discussing how I approach my interpretation.
  Doubtless, someone else would play it very differently, and you must
  find your own way eventually, but hopefully this will help.



  Rob MacKillop

  PS There are many good players on the lute list. Hopefully this will
  move them to improve on what I have done here. We should be helping
  younger and less-advanced players as much as we can.

  --

References

  1. http://www.vihuela.eu/
  2. http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[Rob MacKillop]

   2009/5/19 Martin Shepherd <[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>

 More, please!


   Sure, but we also need to hear from the shy lurkers here as to what
   they would like us to cover. And you yourself, Martin, could have
   something more tailored to lute players on your site, if time and
   energy allowed. But if no-one is interested, we would be wasting our
   time.

   Rob


   --

References

   1. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help for 'improving' lute and vihuela players

[Martin Shepherd]

Dear Rob,

You're right, we don't discuss these things enough, and these duos are 
the ideal place to start.  One of the frustrations of the lute net is 
how we get sidetracked by the complexities of technique, often of very 
difficult pieces, while ignoring the fundamentals of trying to make 
sense of the polyphony.  These duos in Fuenllana are perfect study material.


More, please!

Martin (aspiring member of Polyphonists Anonymous, but hoping never to 
be "dried out")


Rob MacKillop wrote:

   [I'm cross-posting this from the vihuela list as some lute students
   might find it useful. Remember, the vihuela was tuned the same way as a
   6c lute, so you could play this music on your lute.]



   I don't think we do enough, generally speaking, for the maybe not-so
   advanced (if I may say that) players among us. I have had quite a few
   questions over the years from beginners, post-beginners, and those who
   have hit the brick wall and can't move forward, and maybe we should do
   more to help. Well, with this in mind I've started a page on the
   [1]www.vihuela.eu site which sets out to do just that. I've started
   with a 'duo' (for one instrument) by Fuenllana/Josquin, as, like
   Bermudo, I believe the articulation of vocal lines is one of the most
   crucial yet difficult things to achieve well on the vihuela or lute.
   The page is very much just beginning, so please let me know what you
   would like to see there. I can't promise I'll be able to do all you
   ask...Unfortunately, the vihuela I used for the recording needs some
   attention, and does tend to buzz occasionally...but it's not a CD.



   Anyway, hot foot it to [2]http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm I have the
   score in French tab, an mp3 performance, plus an mp3 of commentary as I
   explore the piece, discussing how I approach my interpretation.
   Doubtless, someone else would play it very differently, and you must
   find your own way eventually, but hopefully this will help.



   Rob MacKillop

   PS There are many good players on the lute list. Hopefully this will
   move them to improve on what I have done here. We should be helping
   younger and less-advanced players as much as we can.

   --

References

   1. http://www.vihuela.eu/
   2. http://www.vihuela.eu/study.htm


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  

[LUTE] Re: Help, please !

[Ron Andrico]

   Hello Jean-Marie:
   Good luck on your duet concert.  We should point out that, while both
   Donna and I do enjoy a good curry, her surname is Stewart.
   Best wishes,
   Ron & Donna
   www.mignarda.com
   > Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 22:30:55 +0100
   > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   > From: jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
   > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Help, please !
   >
   > Thank you Arthur and Sean for your kindness but it won't be necessary
   to bother you as Ron Andrico and Donna Curry have kindly supplied the
   Van Wilder's song I was after.
 __

   Windows Live: Keep your life in sync. [1]Check it out. --

References

   1. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1b_explore_032009


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[LUTE] Re: Help, please !

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Thank you Arthur and Sean for your kindness but it won't be necessary to bother 
you as Ron Andrico and Donna Curry have kindly supplied the Van Wilder's song I 
was after.
In fact, I needed this version to understand the duet by Marchant mentioned by 
Ward (alas, no, I haven't got this volume...yet !). The surviving piece It is a 
first lute part of a duet (Edinburgh University Library, Dc. 5.125, ff. 77v - 
78) and David Humphries proposed a reconstruction of the missing part, which 
was published by the English Lute Society. This very nice duet is part of a 
programme we are to give in concert next Sunday in Angoulême, near Cognac (I 
suppose the latter name will be more evocative;-).

Thank you for your kind help and best wishes,

Jean-Marie 

>
>Can't help you with the chanson.  Because he makes such a fuss about 
>Wilder, I looked in Ward's _Music for Elizabethan Lutes, _ vol. 1, 
>page 64.  At the top there is listed a fantasia for two lutes by 
>Marchant.  The first few measures quote "Si vous voules."  Do you have 
>the Ward volumes?  I have to rush (Boston Sym concert) but can send 
>more later if you don';t.
>
>Sorry I can't help you with Jane Bernstein's edition.  I have one 
>edition by her but it doesn't have your piece.
>
>=AJN (Boston, Mass.)=
>  My Web Page: Scores
>http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
>Other Matters:
>http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
>http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/musexx/
>===
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" 
>To: "Lute" 
>Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 1:22 PM
>Subject: [LUTE] Help, please !
>
>
>| Dear collective Wisdom,
>|
>| Would some of you have a copy of Philip Van Wilder's works edited by 
>Jane Bernstein in the series "Masters ans Monuments of the 
>Renaissance" #4 ?
>| I am looking for the song 'Si vous voulés' which should be in the 
>second volume (Secular & Instrumental Works).
>| In case someone could send me a scan of this particular song I would 
>be very grateful indeed.
>|
>| Thanks in advance and all the best,
>|
>| Jean-Marie Poirier


jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
http://poirierjm.free.fr

[LUTE] Re: help wanted for correct pronounciation of "Det hev ei rose sprunge"

[Arne Keller]

Hey, who is the assertive perk around here!!

AK

- Original Message - 
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Charles Browne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lutelist" 


Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 9:57 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: help wanted for correct pronounciation of "Det hev ei 
rose sprunge"



All you have to do is mutter to yourself unintelligibly. It will sound 
Norwegian.
Be careful not to do the muttering perkily or assertively, because that 
would sound Danish.

RT

- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Browne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 3:50 PM
Subject: [LUTE] help wanted for correct pronounciation of "Det hev ei rose 
sprunge"




I am trying to get the correct norwegian pronounciation of  this carol
before Monday. I would be grateful if some kind Norwegian with a recorder
could possibly send me a sound file, off list, of the spoken text of the
following:
Det hev ei rose sprunge,
ut av ei rot så grann
det hev ei rose sprunge,
ut av ei rot så grann,
fedrane hev sunge,
Av Isais rot ho rann,
og var ein blome
blid mit i den kalde vinter
ved mørke midnattstid
ved mørke midnattstid.

Om denna rosa eine,
er sagt Jesajas ord,
om denne rosa eine,
er sagt Jesajas ord,
Maria møy, den reine,
bar rosa til vår jord;
Og Herrens miskunns makt
det store under gjorde,
som var i spådom sagt.

with grateful thanks
Charles

it's a long winding road without a map and compass. {MRY6STVMNzY9Gl7wis}




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[LUTE] Re: help wanted for correct pronounciation of "Det hev ei rose sprunge"

[Roman Turovsky]

All you have to do is mutter to yourself unintelligibly. It will sound 
Norwegian.
Be careful not to do the muttering perkily or assertively, because that 
would sound Danish.

RT

- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Browne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 3:50 PM
Subject: [LUTE] help wanted for correct pronounciation of "Det hev ei rose 
sprunge"




I am trying to get the correct norwegian pronounciation of  this carol
before Monday. I would be grateful if some kind Norwegian with a recorder
could possibly send me a sound file, off list, of the spoken text of the
following:
Det hev ei rose sprunge,
ut av ei rot så grann
det hev ei rose sprunge,
ut av ei rot så grann,
fedrane hev sunge,
Av Isais rot ho rann,
og var ein blome
blid mit i den kalde vinter
ved mørke midnattstid
ved mørke midnattstid.

Om denna rosa eine,
er sagt Jesajas ord,
om denne rosa eine,
er sagt Jesajas ord,
Maria møy, den reine,
bar rosa til vår jord;
Og Herrens miskunns makt
det store under gjorde,
som var i spådom sagt.

with grateful thanks
Charles

it's a long winding road without a map and compass. {MRY6STVMNzY9Gl7wis}




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: ...help !

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Dear Arthur,

Thank you again very sincerely for spending some time answering my initial 
query about the mysterious B.M. Yes, I was aware of the fact that Mariagrazia 
Carlone was Paul Beier's wife. By the way I like what Paul does very much. I 
will keep the possible Medici connection to myself until Mariagrazia publishes 
her work and carry on with the usual "Florentine gentleman" stuff, no problem 
of course.
In fact, I was wondering about B.M.'s identity because I am in the process of 
writing notes for a CD which is due to be released in December. With my 
colleague and good friend Thierry Meunier we have done a recording of lute 
duets in August and among them are Galilei's Contrapunti... It was a great 
experience, especially as the job was done without ANY editing, just live 
recording !  Honest and very demanding... I will be more than pleased to send 
you a copy when it is released. (You can see a few photos of the adventure 
there : http://adueliuti.free.fr/cd.htm if you like).

I am leaving for the week-end, heading to Normandy and the seaside. We have 
some gorgeous weather right now, much nicer than anything we had in the summer 
actually.

Thank you again for your precious help. Very best wishes.

Jean-Marie

=== 20-09-2008 13:08:09 ===
>
>>
>>Dear Jean-Marie,
>>
>>You may know that Mariagrazia Carlone is Paul Beier's wife.
>>
>>I was purposely vague about Mariagrazia's suggestion of an identification
>>of "B.M." on Galilei's "Fronimo."  That is because, I just had a short
>>mention and a reference to a section of her article that presumably
>>contains her thinking about why she selected the person. I didn't have
>>that part of her article.  So I thought I'd let the Lute List wait for her
>>article.  In it she suggests a Medici, as you guessed.  Namely Bernardetto
>>Medici.  There is a person with that name who was rather famous in the
>>15th century.  But we would need to know about the namesake who was active
>>in the middle of the 16th century.  I could not find any references to
>>him.
>>
>>Perhaps it would be best to hold this information from publication until
>>after her article appears.  It is also possible that she is just making a
>>guess.  Like Hoppy and Paul were doing.  We forget how popular was the
>>lute and how many professional players were around back then.  I have been
>>reading a book on musicians in 16th-century Milan.  The author (Christine
>>Suzanne Getz--Ashgate Publishers) has a list of musicians who committed
>>crimes (murder, assaults, carrying illegal weapons, etc.) and many were
>>professional lutenists whose names are unknown today.  She has a few new
>>information about  Pietro Paulo Borrono, who as you probably know was in
>>France.
>>
>>It was nice to hear from you.  Best regards, Arthur.
>>=AJN (Boston, Mass.)=
>>This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Chopin's 3
>>Mazurkas, Op. 59, performed by Abdel Rahman El Bacha, pianist.
>>To download, click on the CML link here
>>http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
>>
>>My Web Page:  Scores
>>http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
>>Other Matters:
>>http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
>>===
>>
>>- Original Message - 
>>From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: "lute" 
>>Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 2:01 AM
>>Subject: [LUTE] Re: ...help !
>>
>>
>>| Dear Arthur,
>>|
>>| Thank you very much for your kind and, as usual, very complete answer to
>>my query. Your argumentation comforts my own conclusion. I had taken a
>>look at the various sources I had at hand (your introductions to FdM's
>>works, to the Siena ms, your Herwart's thesis, H. C. Slim's biography of
>>FdM and also Suzanne Court's thesis on Terzi, plus Philipe Canguilhem's
>>book on Galillei) and I always came to the same conclusion : B.M. remains
>>the mystery man in "Fronimo" ! Hoppy and Paul were quite young at the time
>>they recorded this "Duetti Italiani" record (1979) and they may have been
>>a bit over enthusiastic about the attribution then... Never mind, their
>>record is still very pleasant to listen to !
>>| Well, now, B.M., a Florentine gentleman... Could he possibly be a member
>>of the Medici family ?
>>|
>>| Thank you again, Arthur, and have a very good day,
>>|
>>| Jean-Marie
>>|
>>|
>>| === 18-09-2008 02:48:19 ===
>>|
>>| >
&

[LUTE] Re: ...help !

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Dear Arthur,

Thank you very much for your kind and, as usual, very complete answer to my 
query. Your argumentation comforts my own conclusion. I had taken a look at the 
various sources I had at hand (your introductions to FdM's works, to the Siena 
ms, your Herwart's thesis, H. C. Slim's biography of FdM and also Suzanne 
Court's thesis on Terzi, plus Philipe Canguilhem's book on Galillei) and I 
always came to the same conclusion : B.M. remains the mystery man in "Fronimo" 
! Hoppy and Paul were quite young at the time they recorded this "Duetti 
Italiani" record (1979) and they may have been a bit over enthusiastic about 
the attribution then... Never mind, their record is still very pleasant to 
listen to !
Well, now, B.M., a Florentine gentleman... Could he possibly be a member of the 
Medici family ?

Thank you again, Arthur, and have a very good day,

Jean-Marie


=== 18-09-2008 02:48:19 ===

>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "lute" 
>Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 8:52 AM
>| Dear collective wisdom,
>|
>| Could anyone on this list give me some precisions about the attribution
>of some pieces in Galilei's Fronimo (1584 edition), namely 1 ricerecar and
>2 Contrapunti at the end of the book, to a certain "Bernardino Monzino".
>The table indeed gives the initials "B.M." for these pieces, but nowhere
>does a complete name ever appear. How did some people (Paul O'Dette and
>Hopkinson Smith among them) reached the equation BM = Bernardino Monzino ?
>| If you have clues on that mysterious attribution I would be very
>grateful for your help.  Arthur... ??? ;-)
>|
>| All the best,
>|
>| Jean-Marie
>|
>oo
>Dear Jean-Marie,
>
>I've been busy, so have had to put off responding to your question.
>
>The attribution Berdanrdino Monzino for pieces by "B.M." in Galilei's
>"Fronimo" pieces comes from the duet LP
>that Paul and Hoppy released in 1979.  I do not have it, so I do not know
>the thinking behind the attribution to "Bernardo Monzino", Francesco da
>Milano's brother. (Francesco was also known as "Monzino," after his
>birthplace, Monza in Milan, and some pieces of his are attributed to "F.M" 
>which
>could mean Francesco Monzino.)
>
>Pieces attributed to a composer with the initials
>"B.M." also occur in the Siena Lute Book and in the de Bellis Manuscript.
>On folio 24 of the Siena manuscript is a piece attributed to "Monzino,"
>which could refer to Francesco or to his brother.  The piece is included
>in the HUP Francesco edition, as Appendix No. 26.   Now a few folios
>earlier (folio 19v) is a piece attributed to "B.M." and it _appears_ to be
>the Monzino piece.  For that reason Hoppy and Paul may have concluded that
>the "M" of B.M. refers to Monzino, hence Bernardo (or Bernardino) Monzino.
>
>But it is only the first few measures of the two pieces that are alike,
>and both continue differently after measure 12.  In other words, the two
>works are likely parody ricercars based on the same model.  So the
>attribution to a person named Monzino is questionable.  Thanks to Franco 
>Pavan
>we now know a bit about Bernardo's biography.  Francesco's family was
>associated with the French faction in Milan, and Bernardo traveled with
>the Parisian composer Jean Conseil and was in Rome with him, when he was 
>in the Pope's private chapel, but otherwise Bernardo seems to have resided 
>in Milan.  He succeeded Francesco as canon at the basilica of San Nazaro 
>in Broglio, when Francesco married. I can find no
>reference to Bernardo ever being in Florence, except fleetingly.
>Certainly he was not there long enough to be considered a Florentine.
>
>Galilei described "B.M." as being a "gentiluomo fiorentino,"
>and that would exclude Bernardo being "B.M."  A Florentine gentleman might
>disguise his name, since the occupation of musician was beneath his
>station.
>
>Mariagrazia Carlone in a forthcoming article in JLSA suggests a member of
>a prominent Florentine dynastic family as being "B.M., which would surely
>fit the sobriquet "Florentine Gentleman."  Dinko Fabris (iirc) has 
>suggested another name,
>but I cannot find the reference.  And one must remember that there were
>surely a great many Renaissance gentleman-lutenists with those initials.
>
>But until the evidence is stronger, I would suggest the Fronimo pieces be
>designated "B.M., Florentine Gentleman."  It is always dangerous to make
>attributions based on shallow, speculative evidence.
>
>=AJN (Boston, Mass.)=
>This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
>Brahms' Academic Festival Overture in C minor, Op. 80,
>performed by the Orchestre National Bordeaux Aquitaine;
>Alain Lombard, conductor.
>
>To download, click on the CML link here
>http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
>
>My Web Page:  Scores
>http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
>Other Matters:
>http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
>

[LUTE] Re: ...help !

[Arthur Ness]

- Original Message - 
From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute" 
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 8:52 AM
| Dear collective wisdom,
|
| Could anyone on this list give me some precisions about the attribution
of some pieces in Galilei's Fronimo (1584 edition), namely 1 ricerecar and
2 Contrapunti at the end of the book, to a certain "Bernardino Monzino".
The table indeed gives the initials "B.M." for these pieces, but nowhere
does a complete name ever appear. How did some people (Paul O'Dette and
Hopkinson Smith among them) reached the equation BM = Bernardino Monzino ?
| If you have clues on that mysterious attribution I would be very
grateful for your help.  Arthur... ??? ;-)
|
| All the best,
|
| Jean-Marie
|
oo
Dear Jean-Marie,

I've been busy, so have had to put off responding to your question.

The attribution Berdanrdino Monzino for pieces by "B.M." in Galilei's
"Fronimo" pieces comes from the duet LP
that Paul and Hoppy released in 1979.  I do not have it, so I do not know
the thinking behind the attribution to "Bernardo Monzino", Francesco da
Milano's brother. (Francesco was also known as "Monzino," after his
birthplace, Monza in Milan, and some pieces of his are attributed to "F.M" 
which
could mean Francesco Monzino.)

Pieces attributed to a composer with the initials
"B.M." also occur in the Siena Lute Book and in the de Bellis Manuscript.
On folio 24 of the Siena manuscript is a piece attributed to "Monzino,"
which could refer to Francesco or to his brother.  The piece is included
in the HUP Francesco edition, as Appendix No. 26.   Now a few folios
earlier (folio 19v) is a piece attributed to "B.M." and it _appears_ to be
the Monzino piece.  For that reason Hoppy and Paul may have concluded that
the "M" of B.M. refers to Monzino, hence Bernardo (or Bernardino) Monzino.

But it is only the first few measures of the two pieces that are alike,
and both continue differently after measure 12.  In other words, the two
works are likely parody ricercars based on the same model.  So the
attribution to a person named Monzino is questionable.  Thanks to Franco 
Pavan
we now know a bit about Bernardo's biography.  Francesco's family was
associated with the French faction in Milan, and Bernardo traveled with
the Parisian composer Jean Conseil and was in Rome with him, when he was 
in the Pope's private chapel, but otherwise Bernardo seems to have resided 
in Milan.  He succeeded Francesco as canon at the basilica of San Nazaro 
in Broglio, when Francesco married. I can find no
reference to Bernardo ever being in Florence, except fleetingly.
Certainly he was not there long enough to be considered a Florentine.

Galilei described "B.M." as being a "gentiluomo fiorentino,"
and that would exclude Bernardo being "B.M."  A Florentine gentleman might
disguise his name, since the occupation of musician was beneath his
station.

Mariagrazia Carlone in a forthcoming article in JLSA suggests a member of
a prominent Florentine dynastic family as being "B.M., which would surely
fit the sobriquet "Florentine Gentleman."  Dinko Fabris (iirc) has 
suggested another name,
but I cannot find the reference.  And one must remember that there were
surely a great many Renaissance gentleman-lutenists with those initials.

But until the evidence is stronger, I would suggest the Fronimo pieces be
designated "B.M., Florentine Gentleman."  It is always dangerous to make
attributions based on shallow, speculative evidence.

=AJN (Boston, Mass.)=
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is
Brahms' Academic Festival Overture in C minor, Op. 80,
performed by the Orchestre National Bordeaux Aquitaine;
Alain Lombard, conductor.

To download, click on the CML link here
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/

My Web Page:  Scores
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Other Matters:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
===





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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help request...

[Nancy Carlin]

Old LSA Journals are still available. There's a list of the contents 
on the LSA web site at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/publications/JLSA-Index.html
To get any of them contact Anne Burns at
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nancy Carlin



>Dear collective wisdom,
>
>I am looking for an article from an old Journal of the Lute Society 
>of America, vol. 5, 1972, by Daniel Heartz entitled " Mary Magdalen, Lutenist".
>
>If someone among you has this volume and is ready to help me, could 
>he/she scan it and send it to me on my personal mailbox, indicated 
>at the bottom of this message.
>
>Thank you in advance for your precious help and have a good day !
>
>Jean-Marie Poirier
>
>
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>23-05-2008
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Nancy Carlin Associates
P.O. Box 6499
Concord, CA 94524  USA
phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com
Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

--

[LUTE] Re: Help request...

[Bruno Fournier]

I may have it, I will look...

Bruno


On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Stewart McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear Jean-Marie,
>
> There is an article by Colin Slim in _Early Music_ on this subject. I
> can provide details if need be.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Stewart McCoy.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 23 May 2008 11:00
> To: lute
> Subject: [LUTE] help request...
>
> Dear collective wisdom,
>
> I am looking for an article from an old Journal of the Lute Society of
> America, vol. 5, 1972, by Daniel Heartz entitled " Mary Magdalen,
> Lutenist".
>
> If someone among you has this volume and is ready to help me, could
> he/she scan it and send it to me on my personal mailbox, indicated at
> the bottom of this message.
>
> Thank you in advance for your precious help and have a good day !
>
> Jean-Marie Poirier
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 23-05-2008
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>


-- 
Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
Luthiste, etc
Estavel
Ensemble de musique ancienne
www.estavel.org

--

[LUTE] Re: help request

[howard posner]

On Apr 29, 2008, at 8:19 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

A friend of mine is wring a short article on the state of affairs  
in contemporary composition for lutes/citterns, and he asked me to  
assist in gathering the information.
I don't know whether the planned new lute composition index by  
Lynda Sayce and David PArsons was ever published, so we are  
soliciting the Collective Wisdom for citations, as substantial as  
possible for the 14 composers mentioned in the Wikipedia Article (I  
am familiar with the work of 4-5 of these),  as as any others not  
mentioned there.

RT


Richard Darsie has written original works for lute duet.



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[LUTE] Re: help to find an artist?

[Roman Turovsky]

It would be helpful if the lady posted a scan of the postcard.
RT



- Original Message - 
From: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "tracy mcmenamin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:53 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: help to find an artist?


> Oh gosh, I forgot to give the link.  here it is:
>
> http://www.wga.hu/index1.html
>
> ed
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 09:35 PM 6/19/2007 +0100, tracy mcmenamin wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>   I wonder if anyone can help me. I have an old postcard with an
>> intriguing picture and would love to find out who the artist is.
>>
>>   The picture is called "The Rehearsal". My postcard is black and white,
>> but the original painting/drawing may have been coloured.
>>
>>   The picture is of a lady seated on an old wooden sofa. She has a floor
>> length dress with a scooped neckline and her shoes are visible. She has a
>> small heel and buckles on her shoes. Her feet are raised on a cushion.She
>> has a lute on her lap which she is playing although her head is turned
>> partially to a gentleman leaning over her shoulder. He has a white wig
>> on, a ruffle at his neck, a long frock coat, trousers to his knee and
>> white stockings beneath.
>>
>>   I have searched the pictures you have on your site but have not found
>> this one.
>>
>>   It is such a charming picture I would love to find more about the 
>> artist.
>>
>>   Any help would be most appreciated.
>>
>>   Tracy
>>
>>
>>-
>>  Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign
>> up for your freeaccount today.
>>--
>>
>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/853 - Release Date: 6/18/2007
>>3:02 PM
>
>
>
> Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd Street
> Duluth, Minnesota  55812
> e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> voice:  (218) 728-1202
>
>
>
> 

[LUTE] Re: help to find an artist?

[Edward Martin]

Oh gosh, I forgot to give the link.  here it is:

http://www.wga.hu/index1.html

ed






At 09:35 PM 6/19/2007 +0100, tracy mcmenamin wrote:
>Hi,
>
>   I wonder if anyone can help me. I have an old postcard with an 
> intriguing picture and would love to find out who the artist is.
>
>   The picture is called "The Rehearsal". My postcard is black and white, 
> but the original painting/drawing may have been coloured.
>
>   The picture is of a lady seated on an old wooden sofa. She has a floor 
> length dress with a scooped neckline and her shoes are visible. She has a 
> small heel and buckles on her shoes. Her feet are raised on a cushion.She 
> has a lute on her lap which she is playing although her head is turned 
> partially to a gentleman leaning over her shoulder. He has a white wig 
> on, a ruffle at his neck, a long frock coat, trousers to his knee and 
> white stockings beneath.
>
>   I have searched the pictures you have on your site but have not found 
> this one.
>
>   It is such a charming picture I would love to find more about the artist.
>
>   Any help would be most appreciated.
>
>   Tracy
>
>
>-
>  Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign 
> up for your freeaccount today.
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>3:02 PM



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202

[LUTE] Re: help to find an artist?

[Edward Martin]

Dear Tracy,

Thanks for asking.  I am uncertain as to the exact painting, but you can 
probably find it on this site, but it will require searching.  It sounds as 
though it is Dutch.

ed





At 09:35 PM 6/19/2007 +0100, tracy mcmenamin wrote:
>Hi,
>
>   I wonder if anyone can help me. I have an old postcard with an 
> intriguing picture and would love to find out who the artist is.
>
>   The picture is called "The Rehearsal". My postcard is black and white, 
> but the original painting/drawing may have been coloured.
>
>   The picture is of a lady seated on an old wooden sofa. She has a floor 
> length dress with a scooped neckline and her shoes are visible. She has a 
> small heel and buckles on her shoes. Her feet are raised on a cushion.She 
> has a lute on her lap which she is playing although her head is turned 
> partially to a gentleman leaning over her shoulder. He has a white wig 
> on, a ruffle at his neck, a long frock coat, trousers to his knee and 
> white stockings beneath.
>
>   I have searched the pictures you have on your site but have not found 
> this one.
>
>   It is such a charming picture I would love to find more about the artist.
>
>   Any help would be most appreciated.
>
>   Tracy
>
>
>-
>  Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign 
> up for your freeaccount today.
>--
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/853 - Release Date: 6/18/2007 
>3:02 PM



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202

[LUTE] Re: Help

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 02:40 PM 6/3/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>It is nice for both customer and for builder when an instrument in stock
>will suit the customer, avoiding the delay of a custom build.  However,
>the need to warehouse stock is an issue, both space and insurance.  There
>is also the hassle of customers desiring to experience the instrument
>first hand, if one has them visiting the shop one loses time, if one sends
>off the instrument on aprooval, one risks damage in shipping...
>
>There are many good reasons to engage a retail agent.

I agree, but pursuing instruments via retailer is more practical with more 
popular instruments or those not considered by the general musical populace 
to be the quaint realm of early-music specialists.  Retailers with a 
selection of quality lute-like things on hand are even more rare and sparse 
than those with quality classical guitars.  Yes, it is unfortunate, but it is.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Help

[demery]

On Sat, Jun 2, 2007, Craig Robert Pierpont <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

> In my experience, unless the builder is set-up to do only retail or do only 
> wholesale, the whole thing becomes somewhat of an awkward dance.

It is nice for both customer and for builder when an instrument in stock
will suit the customer, avoiding the delay of a custom build.  However,
the need to warehouse stock is an issue, both space and insurance.  There
is also the hassle of customers desiring to experience the instrument
first hand, if one has them visiting the shop one loses time, if one sends
off the instrument on aprooval, one risks damage in shipping...

There are many good reasons to engage a retail agent.
-- 
Dana Emery




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[LUTE] Re: Help

[Craig Robert Pierpont]

Sorry about that. Hit the wrong button. Anyhow, you will probably pay much the 
same from a store or from a builder. The store adds a mark-up to stay in 
business, but the builder, when he sells retail incurs many of the same 
expenses. Perhaps more significantly, the builder cannot afford to have a 
customer buy one of his from a store, then find his website on line and think 
that the store has "ripped him off".

In my experience, unless the builder is set-up to do only retail or do only 
wholesale, the whole thing becomes somewhat of an awkward dance.

Craig


Craig R. Pierpont
Another Era Lutherie
www.anotherera.com

Stewart McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Neil,

I'm afraid I do not share your experience. By and large you get what you pay 
for. If a lute is exceptionally cheap, it is likely that there is something 
wrong with it. I would advise going direct to a maker, rather than buy 
through a shop, if only because the shop will take its cut. The Lute Society 
provides a list of makers. Many of them have websites, which will provide 
useful information. Sometimes makers make instruments on spec, so you don't 
necessarily have to wait for an instrument to be made.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message - 
From: "Narada" 
To: "'Daniel F Heiman'" ; 
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 12:46 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: help


> Shumo,
>
> As Daniel say's you can buy a Lute from the Early Music Shop here in the
> UK. I purchased my 8 course from them and for the price it is
> exceptional quality, and their after sales support is superb. They have
> a shop on eBay and I believe that they dispatch worldwide. I would
> recommend that you have a look.
>
> Best Wishes
>
> Neil Woodhouse.
> Yorkshire, England



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[LUTE] Re: Help

[Craig Robert Pierpont]

Stewart and Neil,

   There are many reasons to but directly from a builder such as the chance to 
use the builder as a resource in your lute buying decisions and the opportunity 
to have a lute built for you rather than buying what is on hand now.
   However, if you buy through a store, the store will indeed take it's cut, 
but from the builder not you. In the age of the internet a builder who deals 
with shops almost always sells 

Stewart McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Neil,

I'm afraid I do not share your experience. By and large you get what you pay 
for. If a lute is exceptionally cheap, it is likely that there is something 
wrong with it. I would advise going direct to a maker, rather than buy 
through a shop, if only because the shop will take its cut. The Lute Society 
provides a list of makers. Many of them have websites, which will provide 
useful information. Sometimes makers make instruments on spec, so you don't 
necessarily have to wait for an instrument to be made.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message - 
From: "Narada" 
To: "'Daniel F Heiman'" ; 
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 12:46 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: help


> Shumo,
>
> As Daniel say's you can buy a Lute from the Early Music Shop here in the
> UK. I purchased my 8 course from them and for the price it is
> exceptional quality, and their after sales support is superb. They have
> a shop on eBay and I believe that they dispatch worldwide. I would
> recommend that you have a look.
>
> Best Wishes
>
> Neil Woodhouse.
> Yorkshire, England



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[LUTE] Re: help

[Daniel F Heiman]

Shiro:

Up front you need to realize that buying a lute is a serious financial
commitment.  They are not generally available over the counter except in
a place like the Early Music Shop in Bradford, England.  There are
several hundred luthiers around the world who can build you one, custom
made to your specifications, but that will take time (six months to four
or five years, depending on the demand for that builder's work) and $1500
to $6000 or more.

A very fundamental choice you must make is what kind of music you want to
play.   Many people use the term "medieval music" for anything old.  You
need to understand clearly the distinctions and stylistic differences
between Medieval, Renaissance and Baroque music.  The lutes required are
completely different.  (So you may end up buying several instruments.) 
Some nice samples can be found on YouTube:
Medieval:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB4CehJEK8A&NR=1
Renaissance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G23_pcCZkZg   (Played by a professional)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3lKc_JMmIg   (Played by a
non-professional)
Baroque solo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIANAfU2cS4   (Played by a professional)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVlFbu-0I3g(Played by a
non-professional)
or Baroque ensemble music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqkjkbSBHAs 

Finally, you need to realize that there is a significant time commitment
involved in learning to play.  All of the people who made these videos
have worked at it regularly for many years to achieve the level of
proficiency you see there (the shortest being around 4 years).

Regards,

Daniel Heiman

On Thu, 31 May 2007 20:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Shiro Okami
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> im trying to buy a lute for myself because i really enjoy listening 
> to its sounds..ive never touched one before and i was wondering if 
> somebody could help me choose the right one for me. i like listening 
> to lute music from the medevil ages or stuff like a song called 
> skalds and shadows by blind guardian.. help me please.. thank you
>
> -
> Got a little couch potato? 
> Check out fun summer activities for kids.
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> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
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> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: help finding theory book's

[Taco Walstra]

On Friday 13 April 2007 07:15, Omer katzir wrote:
> i mean theory from the medieval and earlier to the end of the
> romantic period
>
> i have enough books for modern and jazz music, but im looking for the
> "good old stuff"
> books in english or in hebrew.
>
> thank you all!
>

Donington - the interpretation of early music
superb book.
taco
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: help with Spanish translation -- Ay que si por mi dolor

[Daniel F Heiman]

Chris:

This is a small fragment of a significantly longer villancico that might
have been familiar to at least some potential purchasers of
Valderrábano's book.  The "Cancionero de Elvas" contains a slightly
longer setting with different music from that in Valderrábano.

Despososse tu amiga, 
Gil pastor,
Mi fé si por mi dolor.

Que sentiste qua[n]do viste
Al villano dar la mano?
Un mal triste q[ue] me viste
Me trae vano y no sano.
Muy te[m]prano Gil hermano
Burla Amor:
Mi fé si, por mi dolor.

The dialog continues from the point where Antonio translated it:

What did you feel when you saw
[her] give her hand to that guy?
A sad unease took me
vainly and without cure.
Very soon, brother Gil, 
love mocks you.
By my faith, yes, to my sorrow.

A version 12 strophes long is in MS 617 (185r-186r) in la Biblioteca Real
de Madrid, but this MS includes no music (transcription in El Cancionero
del Siglo XV, Brian Dutton, Salamanca, 1990)

Regards,
Daniel Heiman

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 14:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Christopher Schaub
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hello all. I've been wracking my brain to try and figure this lyric 
> out ...
> 
> Desposose te tu amiga Juan Pastor
> Ay que si por mi dolor
> 
> It's a short piece from Valderrabano's book. Any translation help 
> is
> appreciated.
> 
>  - Chris
> 
> -
> Christopher Schaub
> web: http://www.christopherschaub.com
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>