[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Dear Martyn, Obviously everything is possible. We could invent lots of scenarios on the spot. What I am trying to do however, is to simplify things. I can sense your reluctance in accepting that this particular instrument could have been the real thing and I can understand this as there are some features that are difficult to explain, but my attitude would be rather to find things that make sense and find what could be the reason for someone to do so. No one carefully restrings a lute in a very unusual but careful and logical way just to make a prop for a painting (or maybe she knew I would discover it and we will be talking about it and now she is laughing hearing it somewhere in the sky - it was just a pun of hers). If the picture was from 16th century Italy, I'd say it's a fake, but in 1745 Germany it seems to make sense. So what is that we don't like about it. As far as your objections are concerned I can see that it's mainly the angle of the strings and the bridge. Dealing with the ! bridge issue is easier as it is not as much off center as it may seem from the first impression. I measured the distance between the last bass string - top edge of the belly and compared to the distance from the first string - bottom edge of the belly. The difference isn't very significant, so it could be either painter's error or Eleonore moved all strings up from bass towards treble side. The angle of the strings is a little bit skewed, but again we could find many explanations for this too. One could be that Pesne didn't get it right because he didn't care if the strings show on the fingerboard or not. As for your and Louis's concerns about posing I can tell you (as my wife is a painter) that there are thousand ways to arrange a posing session without causing much fatigue for a model. As an Englishman probably you are familiar with the collection of the Royal family paintings in the National Portrait Gallery in London (close to Leicester Square tube station). Some of them have explanations underneath that the portrait was made only from the sketches made during very short posing sessions as the King was too busy to sit for a longer period of time. If I didn't read it I would never ever say it was made from some sketches. Some portraits look as if a painter spent many hours with the model. Absolutely unbelievable, but people knew their profession and ways to deal with difficult situations. Regards Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 21 lip 2012, o godz. 08:49: Dear Jaroslaw, It's clear that none us can present a definitive case about this instrument. But just one other thought: a noble sitter would not expect to pose indefinitely for their portrait and mostly only the face and general physique would have been taken from life. You suggest it would have been just the background: I suspect the clothes etc and any other appendages (such as an instrument) would probably also have been painted in separately. Is it not possible that even if the lute were Elizabeth's own instrument it was lent to Pesne in a state without the top two courses (possibly the strings had broken) - but he, realising that strings ought to come from the bridge, made his own corrections there but not at the nut.. All speculation of course. Mouton was a celebrated professional lutenist and we can reasonably expect him to be have been concerned about the precise depiction of his (sole?) means of income. regards Martyn --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 21:00 Luis, We live in very different times. In past people were accustomed to things that we wouldn't tolerate. As far as I know many people were portrait with real instruments, otherwise we could say that all iconography is rubbish. Is portrait of Moutton just a rubbish? Was he holding a prop? A very reputable lute maker made an exact copy of that instrument by making computer calculations on measurements taken from the very picture. As far as painting as an art is concerned there are ways to make things much easier for a model like taking some sketches and then assembling everything afterwards without a model. Then some corrections are made by confronting it with reality. I am sure she wasn't posing in her garden as can be seen on the picture. The whole background was added independently. The whole beauty of Rococo (obviously if you like it) is in that mixture of reality of figures and fantasy of landscapes. A little bit soppy it is, but this is the way people loved it at that time. About your concerns on the dirty soundboard I'd say that one has to be very cautious in making such statements as the texture
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
-continuo) was the main reason why things went wrong with Pesne's painting. I am almost sure that this instrument was used in the mentioned setting. All the best Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 21 lip 2012, o godz. 08:49: Dear Jaroslaw, It's clear that none us can present a definitive case about this instrument. But just one other thought: a noble sitter would not expect to pose indefinitely for their portrait and mostly only the face and general physique would have been taken from life. You suggest it would have been just the background: I suspect the clothes etc and any other appendages (such as an instrument) would probably also have been painted in separately. Is it not possible that even if the lute were Elizabeth's own instrument it was lent to Pesne in a state without the top two courses (possibly the strings had broken) - but he, realising that strings ought to come from the bridge, made his own corrections there but not at the nut.. All speculation of course. Mouton was a celebrated professional lutenist and we can reasonably expect him to be have been concerned about the precise depiction of his (sole?) means of income. regards Martyn --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 21:00 Luis, We live in very different times. In past people were accustomed to things that we wouldn't tolerate. As far as I know many people were portrait with real instruments, otherwise we could say that all iconography is rubbish. Is portrait of Moutton just a rubbish? Was he holding a prop? A very reputable lute maker made an exact copy of that instrument by making computer calculations on measurements taken from the very picture. As far as painting as an art is concerned there are ways to make things much easier for a model like taking some sketches and then assembling everything afterwards without a model. Then some corrections are made by confronting it with reality. I am sure she wasn't posing in her garden as can be seen on the picture. The whole background was added independently. The whole beauty of Rococo (obviously if you like it) is in that mixture of reality of figures and fantasy of landscapes. A little bit soppy it is, but this is the way people loved it at that time. About your concerns on the dirty soundboard I'd say that one has to be very cautious in making such statements as the texture of Rococo paintings is usually very uneven, impressionistic, unclear, colorful, without photographic gloss, and therefore it can't be taken as if it was a reality. I can't see any dirt, sorry. It's just shading. Jaroslaw WiadomoAAAe/= napisana przez Louis Aull w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 20:07: Jaroslaw, Just conjecture, but I would not use a working instrument to pose for many hours for a painting of this detail. I keep mine in a case at all times it is not being played to help keep it in tune. Do you think she would tolerate a lute of her own that dirty? In that dress? Louis Aull -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Dear Jaroslaw, It may be some sort of sport (in a modern biological sense), but I suspect either the painter didn't quite get it right - see how the first string is fastened not to the to the body of the bridge but to the treble point! - or the neck is indeed incorrectly set (maybe in converting from an instrument with fewer courses the neck was not canted over to ensure the bridge remained central... Do we know if she actually played the lute or is this just an example of an elegant pose adopted simply for pictorial delight? Martyn --- On Thu, 19/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 19 July, 2012, 20:45 here is a link if interested [1]http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-e leonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von- keyserlingk.jpg JL To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-eleonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von-keyserlingk.jpg 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Dear Martyn, It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into direct conclusions is another matter. First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing that is incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one has to take into consideration that the texture he used, especially to paint a background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different means of showing reality. He was a fine portraitist and had very good powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care, not knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of centuries later who would dispute about these archaic instruments). However what is of some interest to me i! s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing chantarelles, red strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and a longish neck. How the first string is attached to the bridge is difficult to say as I can't see anything apart from a whitish line over the bridge which could mean a normal way of tying a string. As I said before, we shouldn't expect the same level of clarity in details as in some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If you are concerned about asymmetry in placing the bridge I would say that we can not see where exactly it ends on the bass side as it's covered by Lady's forearm. If you judge it by the position of the last bass string it can be misleading as the Lady could have moved all courses towards treble side. Whether she played this instrument or not is not really important here. Then, what kind of instrument is this? My guess is that it could have been an example of a German D-minor theorbo (the one that Weiss talked about) rebuild from a normal 13 course lute. Why? 1/ The time and place is correct - the portrait was painted in Berlin in 1745 (some more info on Eleonore http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonore_von_Schlieben ). 2/ We can't see the whole instrument, but it's clear that diapasons are not attached in the 1st pegbox, so there must be another one somewhere up there. Conclusion - the instrument has a long neck and 2 pegboxes. Because of the time and place it is doubtful if it could be an archlute. Then a swan neck lute or theorbo is possible. 3/ The Lady took off trebles and the only reason for doing so could be a need of transforming the lute into continuo instrument. 4/ The octave stringing from the 3rd course down only confirm this supposition. 5/ The number of fingerboard frets can suggest that proportions of the body to neck could have been changed in favor of the neck. It is possible that the real proportions of this lute were not portrayed correctly intentionally because of the constraints caused by the composition of this painting. Lady's figure is centrally placed like an axis of the picture, so it is possible that Pesne wanted to fit the 1st pegbox within view. This in turn may suggest that it could be more theorbo-like. All in all it is a very interesting stringing idea - to use one D-minor instrument alternatively for continuo or solo just by rearranging a stringing. Obviously I can be totally wrong, but it gives me an idea though. All the best Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 09:07: Dear Jaroslaw, It may be some sort of sport (in a modern biological sense), but I suspect either the painter didn't quite get it right - see how the first string is fastened not to the to the body of the bridge but to the treble point! - or the neck is indeed incorrectly set (maybe in converting from an instrument with fewer courses the neck was not canted over to ensure the bridge remained central... Do we know if she actually played the lute or is this just an example of an elegant pose adopted simply for pictorial delight? Martyn --- On Thu, 19/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 19 July, 2012, 20:45 here is a link if interested [1]http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-e leonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von- keyserlingk.jpg JL To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Yes, I agree more or less. The only thing that I am not sure of is whether 2 first grooves on the nut are far apart because this is how they were in reality, or Pesne didn't bother to depict a proper spacing. So it could be either swan neck 13c (14c?) modified for continuo, or a German d-minor theorbo. Best wishes Jaroslaw P.S. I wonder if there is anyone living in Berlin who saw this painting in reality (Schloß Charlottenburg gallery). Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Mathias Rösel w dniu 19 lip 2012, o godz. 23:15: removed one or two top courses. It's ended up as an 11 course instrument and there is a fair amount of 11 course music intended for liuto attiorbato, I count four double courses on the extension and eight double course over the fret-board, totalling twelve courses. The coloured strings seem to be the fundamentals. There is more space between the 3rd to 9th courses on the lute than between the outer courses. So the 1st course, running from the groove of the 3rd course, probably is attached to the holes of the 1st course in the bridge. To my eyes, the spacing of the empty 1st and 2nd grooves in the nut points at single courses. To summarize, this seems to be a 14c baroque lute with a rather uncommon disposition of the strings, viz. ten courses on the fret-board, and four courses on the extension. She seems to use it, nevertheless, as a 12c theorbo (note the position of her right hand). Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Let us suppose, for a moment, that the two missing strings are replaced - Assuming that they are two single strings, that would give 10 courses on the first pegbox. That seems rather a lot to me - I'm not aware of any instrument of this kind (archlute, theorbo, swan-neck) that has 10 courses on the first pegbox. Also the nut looks rather short for 10 courses. Of course I could be wrong, but I'm still puzzled. Bill PS I love puzzles like this! From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 20 July 2012, 12:52 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten Dear Martyn, It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into direct conclusions is another matter. First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing that is incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one has to take into consideration that the texture he used, especially to paint a background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different means of showing reality. He was a fine portraitist and had very good powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care, not knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of centuries later who would dispute about these archaic instruments). However what is of some interest to me i! s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing chantarelles, red strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and a longish neck. How the first string is attached to the bridge is difficult to say as I can't see anything apart from a whitish line over the bridge which could mean a normal way of tying a string. As I said before, we shouldn't expect the same level of clarity in details as in some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If you are concerned about asymmetry in placing the bridge I would say that we can not see where exactly it ends on the bass side as it's covered by Lady's forearm. If you judge it by the position of the last bass string it can be misleading as the Lady could have moved all courses towards treble side. Whether she played this instrument or not is not really important here. Then, what kind of instrument is this? My guess is that it could have been an example of a German D-minor theorbo (the one that Weiss talked about) rebuild from a normal 13 course lute. Why? 1/ The time and place is correct - the portrait was painted in Berlin in 1745 (some more info on Eleonore [1]http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonore_von_Schlieben ). 2/ We can't see the whole instrument, but it's clear that diapasons are not attached in the 1st pegbox, so there must be another one somewhere up there. Conclusion - the instrument has a long neck and 2 pegboxes. Because of the time and place it is doubtful if it could be an archlute. Then a swan neck lute or theorbo is possible. 3/ The Lady took off trebles and the only reason for doing so could be a need of transforming the lute into continuo instrument. 4/ The octave stringing from the 3rd course down only confirm this supposition. 5/ The number of fingerboard frets can suggest that proportions of the body to neck could have been changed in favor of the neck. It is possible that the real proportions of this lute were not portrayed correctly intentionally because of the constraints caused by the composition of this painting. Lady's figure is centrally placed like an axis of the picture, so it is possible that Pesne wanted to fit the 1st pegbox within view. This in turn may suggest that it could be more theorbo-like. All in all it is a very interesting stringing idea - to use one D-minor instrument alternatively for continuo or solo just by rearranging a stringing. Obviously I can be totally wrong, but it gives me an idea though. All the best Jaroslaw WiadomoAAAe/= napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 09:07: Dear Jaroslaw, It may be some sort of sport (in a modern biological sense), but I suspect either the painter didn't quite get it right - see how the first string is fastened not to the to the body of the bridge but to the treble point! - or the neck is indeed incorrectly set (maybe in converting from an instrument with fewer courses
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Thanks for this Jaroslaw, You may be right, but Pesne wouldn't be the first good painter to get a technical details wrong - perhaps of no real consequence to him. But if it is an absolutley precise depiction then some worrying things about the general disposition of the instrument make me a bit sceptical that any meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Noteably, the first string running to the edge of the fingerboard at the neck/body join even though the third nut grooves are used. Do we know is she actually played the lute or is this just an artistic pose? If the latter this might be a dud lute being used as a sort of stage prop. Martyn --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 12:52 Dear Martyn, It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into direct conclusions is another matter. First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing that is incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one has to take into consideration that the texture he used, especially to paint a background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different means of showing reality. He was a fine portraitist and had very good powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care, not knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of centuries later who would dispute about these archaic instruments). However what is of some interest to me i! s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing chantarelles, red strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and a longish neck. How the first string is attached to the bridge is difficult to say as I can't see anything apart from a whitish line over the bridge which could mean a normal way of tying a string. As I said before, we shouldn't expect the same level of clarity in details as in some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If you are concerned about asymmetry in placing the bridge I would say that we can not see where exactly it ends on the bass side as it's covered by Lady's forearm. If you judge it by the position of the last bass string it can be misleading as the Lady could have moved all courses towards treble side. Whether she played this instrument or not is not really important here. Then, what kind of instrument is this? My guess is that it could have been an example of a German D-minor theorbo (the one that Weiss talked about) rebuild from a normal 13 course lute. Why? 1/ The time and place is correct - the portrait was painted in Berlin in 1745 (some more info on Eleonore [1]http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonore_von_Schlieben ). 2/ We can't see the whole instrument, but it's clear that diapasons are not attached in the 1st pegbox, so there must be another one somewhere up there. Conclusion - the instrument has a long neck and 2 pegboxes. Because of the time and place it is doubtful if it could be an archlute. Then a swan neck lute or theorbo is possible. 3/ The Lady took off trebles and the only reason for doing so could be a need of transforming the lute into continuo instrument. 4/ The octave stringing from the 3rd course down only confirm this supposition. 5/ The number of fingerboard frets can suggest that proportions of the body to neck could have been changed in favor of the neck. It is possible that the real proportions of this lute were not portrayed correctly intentionally because of the constraints caused by the composition of this painting. Lady's figure is centrally placed like an axis of the picture, so it is possible that Pesne wanted to fit the 1st pegbox within view. This in turn may suggest that it could be more theorbo-like. All in all it is a very interesting stringing idea - to use one D-minor instrument alternatively for continuo or solo just by rearranging a stringing. Obviously I can be totally wrong, but it gives me an idea though. All the best Jaroslaw WiadomoAAAe/= napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 09:07: Dear Jaroslaw, It may be some sort of sport (in a modern biological
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
I understand that you would always have 8+4 setting. The only thing is that one would have to rearrange couple of courses when changing from continuo to solo and back. However after some time of examining very closely the pegbox I am more inclined to say that there is something on the treble side that may suggest a kind of a rider for the 1st course. As I said, Pesne had this Rococo style of painting so nothing is sharp in the background, but if it's true that there was something there it could explain why the first 2 grooves are sharper, more apart and sort of in the closer perspective to us. Who knows? Jaroslaw Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez William Samson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 14:05: Let us suppose, for a moment, that the two missing strings are replaced - Assuming that they are two single strings, that would give 10 courses on the first pegbox. That seems rather a lot to me - I'm not aware of any instrument of this kind (archlute, theorbo, swan-neck) that has 10 courses on the first pegbox. Also the nut looks rather short for 10 courses. Of course I could be wrong, but I'm still puzzled. Bill PS I love puzzles like this! From: Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 20 July 2012, 12:52 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten Dear Martyn, It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into direct conclusions is another matter. First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing that is incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one has to take into consideration that the texture he used, especially to paint a background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different means of showing reality. He was a fine portraitist and had very good powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care, not knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of centuries later who would dispute about these archaic instruments). However what is of some interest to me! i! s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing chantarelles, red strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and a longish neck. How the first string is attached to the bridge is difficult to say as I can't see anything apart from a whitish line over the bridge which could mean a normal way of tying a string. As I said before, we shouldn't expect the same level of clarity in details as in some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If you are concerned about asymmetry in placing the bridge I would say that we can not see where exactly it ends on the bass side as it's covered by Lady's forearm. If you judge it by the position of the last bass string it can be misleading as the Lady could have moved all courses towards treble side. Whether she played this instrument or not is not really important here. Then, what kind of instrument is this? My guess is that it could have been an example of a German D-minor theorbo (the one that Weiss talked about) rebuild from a normal 13 course lute. Why? 1/ The time and place is correct - the portrait was painted in Berlin in 1745 (some more info on Eleonore http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonore_von_Schlieben ). 2/ We can't see the whole instrument, but it's clear that diapasons are not attached in the 1st pegbox, so there must be another one somewhere up there. Conclusion - the instrument has a long neck and 2 pegboxes. Because of the time and place it is doubtful if it could be an archlute. Then a swan neck lute or theorbo is possible. 3/ The Lady took off trebles and the only reason for doing so could be a need of transforming the lute into continuo instrument. 4/ The octave stringing from the 3rd course down only confirm this supposition. 5/ The number of fingerboard frets can suggest that proportions of the body to neck could have been changed in favor of the neck. It is possible that the real proportions of this lute were not portrayed correctly intentionally because of the constraints caused by the composition of this painting. Lady's figure is centrally placed like an axis of the picture, so it is possible that Pesne wanted to fit the 1st pegbox within view. This in turn may suggest that it could be more theorbo-like. All in all it is a very interesting stringing idea - to use one D-minor instrument
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Let us suppose, for a moment, that the two missing strings are replaced - Assuming that they are two single strings, that would give 10 courses on the first pegbox. That seems rather a lot to me - I'm not aware of any instrument of this kind (archlute, theorbo, swan-neck) that has 10 courses on the first pegbox. Also the nut looks rather short for 10 courses. Of course I could be wrong, but I'm still puzzled. The only lute instrument with ten courses on the fret-board, that I can think of, is the angélique, German type (see www.accordsnouveaux.ch Angelique). Surviving instruments are single-strung, though. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Hello Martyn, It is just a painting, so we can't judge its credibility by making measurements . In a praxis of painting sometimes it's just a matter of adding a little bit more of a dark paint beneath the string (and there is already a dark background there so he might have thought it satisfied him artistically) however, as said before I doubt very much if Pesne would care about this kind of detail. Did he mind what exact angle the string goes at? It doesn't matter what this instrument was used for and by whom. Painters could err obviously, but I wouldn't ignore some details that can make sense in this particular painting especially that they are not against the evidence. All the best Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 14:24: Thanks for this Jaroslaw, You may be right, but Pesne wouldn't be the first good painter to get a technical details wrong - perhaps of no real consequence to him. But if it is an absolutley precise depiction then some worrying things about the general disposition of the instrument make me a bit sceptical that any meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Noteably, the first string running to the edge of the fingerboard at the neck/body join even though the third nut grooves are used. Do we know is she actually played the lute or is this just an artistic pose? If the latter this might be a dud lute being used as a sort of stage prop. Martyn --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 12:52 Dear Martyn, It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into direct conclusions is another matter. First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing that is incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one has to take into consideration that the texture he used, especially to paint a background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different means of showing reality. He was a fine portraitist and had very good powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care, not knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of centuries later who would dispute about these archaic instruments). However what is of some interest to me i! s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing chantarelles, red strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and a longish neck. How the first string is attached to the bridge is difficult to say as I can't see anything apart from a whitish line over the bridge which could mean a normal way of tying a string. As I said before, we shouldn't expect the same level of clarity in details as in some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If you are concerned about asymmetry in placing the bridge I would say that we can not see where exactly it ends on the bass side as it's covered by Lady's forearm. If you judge it by the position of the last bass string it can be misleading as the Lady could have moved all courses towards treble side. Whether she played this instrument or not is not really important here. Then, what kind of instrument is this? My guess is that it could have been an example of a German D-minor theorbo (the one that Weiss talked about) rebuild from a normal 13 course lute. Why? 1/ The time and place is correct - the portrait was painted in Berlin in 1745 (some more info on Eleonore [1]http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonore_von_Schlieben ). 2/ We can't see the whole instrument, but it's clear that diapasons are not attached in the 1st pegbox, so there must be another one somewhere up there. Conclusion - the instrument has a long neck and 2 pegboxes. Because of the time and place it is doubtful if it could be an archlute. Then a swan neck lute or theorbo is possible. 3/ The Lady took off trebles and the only reason for doing so could be a need of transforming the lute into continuo instrument. 4/ The octave stringing from the 3rd course down only confirm this supposition. 5/ The number of fingerboard frets can suggest that proportions of the body to neck could have been changed in favor of the neck
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Jarislow, Certain things do stand out as accurate: 1) Lay a ruler down the edge of the fingerboard on both sides, these coincide with edges of the bridge. The neck was originally a baroque lute with a bent neck. The artist does not bother to correct the un-esthetic crossing of the neck angle with the extended bass strings. This concept is reinforced by the strap connecting to the body of the lute. This could not have been a theorbo or arch lute, the strap would then likely be attached to the back of the lower pegbox. The weight of the upper pegbox would have been too great to use a shoulder strap. 2) She could not have played the instrument at that angle because she would have to support the weight of the neck with her left hand, despite the articulate looking pose. 3) Strings placed on the unused nut slots would not lie on the fretboard unless moved over toward the center of the bridge on the other end. The bridge was intentionally re-drilled for this configuration. I would conjecture that this was done because the real user found the top string too close to the side of the fretboard, or wanted more string spacing on the bridge. 4) The entire string set is centered on the rosette. Someone altered the bridge holes to get the string set centered, and most likely to get more strings on the bridge. We can't see if the bridge extends beyond the bass strings, I think it might. 5) The artist has unusual dirt drawn on the top. There is the expected dirt where the higher frets are played, where they rest their head on the upper side of the belly, dirt around the bottom from handling it, and a faint line from the occasional pinky touch. The knee stain around the bottom looks like sweat that was cleaned off. The person who actually played this used the strap over the shoulder and rested the lute on the (at times sweaty) knee. In my opinion, this was a modified 10 or 11 course lute converted to a swan neck Louis Aull -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Thank you Martyn, No, I am sorry, unfortunately it is not known to me. Jaroslaw Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 18:46: Thank you Jaroslaw, You write 'There is a strong evidence that Eleonore very often accompanied Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis.' - is there any record of what instrument(s) Eleonore actually played at these little concerts? Martyn --- On Fri, 20/7/12, Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 17:35 Just another thought. Eleonore married Detrich von Keyserling who was a very close friend of Frederick II. In 1744 she gave birth to her daughter Adelaide. Frederick decided to be Adelaide's godfather and during the baptism ceremony he was keeping the child in his arms. Soon Keyserlings were moved to Schloss Schonhausen according to Frederick's will. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schönhausen_Palace This was the place were Frederick's wife Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick-Bevern resided, as a result of Frederick's animosity towards her (he couldn't accept her in Potsdam). There is a strong evidence that Eleonore very often accompanied Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis. If this information is correct it becomes apparent the the instrument on Eleonore's portrait is not a stage prop. If she was to accompany the Queen, and I believe this is what must have been the case (I couldn't imagine the Queen accompanying Eleonore) it is very possible that Eleonore decided to transfer her lute into a continuo instrument. In short, what we can observe on the painting must have been her endeavors to please the Queen. If she was successful is another matter. Jaroslaw Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 14:24: Thanks for this Jaroslaw, You may be right, but Pesne wouldn't be the first good painter to get a technical details wrong - perhaps of no real consequence to him. But if it is an absolutley precise depiction then some worrying things about the general disposition of the instrument make me a bit sceptical that any meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Noteably, the first string running to the edge of the fingerboard at the neck/body join even though the third nut grooves are used. Do we know is she actually played the lute or is this just an artistic pose? If the latter this might be a dud lute being used as a sort of stage prop. Martyn --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 12:52 Dear Martyn, It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into direct conclusions is another matter. First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing that is incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one has to take into consideration that the texture he used, especially to paint a background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different means of showing reality. He was a fine portraitist and had very good powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care, not knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of centuries later who would dispute about these archaic instruments). However what is of some interest to me i! s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing chantarelles, red strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and a longish neck. How the first string is attached to the bridge is difficult to say as I can't see anything apart from a whitish line over the bridge which could mean a normal way of tying a string. As I said before, we shouldn't expect the same level of clarity in details as in some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If you are concerned about asymmetry in placing the bridge I would say that we can not see where exactly it ends on the bass side as it's covered by Lady's forearm. If you judge it by the position of the last bass string
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Thank you Martyn, Sorry, I've pushed the button too early by mistake. No, I am sorry, unfortunately it is not known to me, but I can't see the reason for which she would take for a portrait an instrument that she didn't play instead of an instrument that she did. Jaroslaw Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 18:46: Thank you Jaroslaw, You write 'There is a strong evidence that Eleonore very often accompanied Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis.' - is there any record of what instrument(s) Eleonore actually played at these little concerts? Martyn --- On Fri, 20/7/12, Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 17:35 Just another thought. Eleonore married Detrich von Keyserling who was a very close friend of Frederick II. In 1744 she gave birth to her daughter Adelaide. Frederick decided to be Adelaide's godfather and during the baptism ceremony he was keeping the child in his arms. Soon Keyserlings were moved to Schloss Schonhausen according to Frederick's will. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schönhausen_Palace This was the place were Frederick's wife Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick-Bevern resided, as a result of Frederick's animosity towards her (he couldn't accept her in Potsdam). There is a strong evidence that Eleonore very often accompanied Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis. If this information is correct it becomes apparent the the instrument on Eleonore's portrait is not a stage prop. If she was to accompany the Queen, and I believe this is what must have been the case (I couldn't imagine the Queen accompanying Eleonore) it is very possible that Eleonore decided to transfer her lute into a continuo instrument. In short, what we can observe on the painting must have been her endeavors to please the Queen. If she was successful is another matter. Jaroslaw Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 14:24: Thanks for this Jaroslaw, You may be right, but Pesne wouldn't be the first good painter to get a technical details wrong - perhaps of no real consequence to him. But if it is an absolutley precise depiction then some worrying things about the general disposition of the instrument make me a bit sceptical that any meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Noteably, the first string running to the edge of the fingerboard at the neck/body join even though the third nut grooves are used. Do we know is she actually played the lute or is this just an artistic pose? If the latter this might be a dud lute being used as a sort of stage prop. Martyn --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 12:52 Dear Martyn, It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into direct conclusions is another matter. First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing that is incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one has to take into consideration that the texture he used, especially to paint a background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different means of showing reality. He was a fine portraitist and had very good powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care, not knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of centuries later who would dispute about these archaic instruments). However what is of some interest to me i! s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing chantarelles, red strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and a longish neck. How the first string is attached to the bridge is difficult to say as I can't see anything apart from a whitish line over the bridge which could mean a normal way of tying a string. As I said before, we shouldn't expect the same level of clarity in details as in some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If you are concerned about asymmetry
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
There is a picture in the National Gallery of Scotland of a woman playing a theorbo, with the comment that she couldn't play, she borrowed it for the painting, and then she didn't return it. I didn't make a note of the details, but it was in a book catalog of the museum. Wayne Begin forwarded message: From: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten Date: July 20, 2012 1:04:43 PM EDT To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Thank you Martyn, Sorry, I've pushed the button too early by mistake. No, I am sorry, unfortunately it is not known to me, but I can't see the reason for which she would take for a portrait an instrument that she didn't play instead of an instrument that she did. Jaroslaw Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 18:46: Thank you Jaroslaw, You write 'There is a strong evidence that Eleonore very often accompanied Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis.' - is there any record of what instrument(s) Eleonore actually played at these little concerts? Martyn --- On Fri, 20/7/12, Jaros“aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: Jaros“aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 17:35 Just another thought. Eleonore married Detrich von Keyserling who was a very close friend of Frederick II. In 1744 she gave birth to her daughter Adelaide. Frederick decided to be Adelaide's godfather and during the baptism ceremony he was keeping the child in his arms. Soon Keyserlings were moved to Schloss Schonhausen according to Frederick's will. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schönhausen_Palace This was the place were Frederick's wife Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick-Bevern resided, as a result of Frederick's animosity towards her (he couldn't accept her in Potsdam). There is a strong evidence that Eleonore very often accompanied Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis. If this information is correct it becomes apparent the the instrument on Eleonore's portrait is not a stage prop. If she was to accompany the Queen, and I believe this is what must have been the case (I couldn't imagine the Queen accompanying Eleonore) it is very possible that Eleonore decided to transfer her lute into a continuo instrument. In short, what we can observe on the painting must have been her endeavors to please the Queen. If she was successful is another matter. Jaroslaw Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 14:24: Thanks for this Jaroslaw, You may be right, but Pesne wouldn't be the first good painter to get a technical details wrong - perhaps of no real consequence to him. But if it is an absolutley precise depiction then some worrying things about the general disposition of the instrument make me a bit sceptical that any meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Noteably, the first string running to the edge of the fingerboard at the neck/body join even though the third nut grooves are used. Do we know is she actually played the lute or is this just an artistic pose? If the latter this might be a dud lute being used as a sort of stage prop. Martyn --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 12:52 Dear Martyn, It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into direct conclusions is another matter. First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing that is incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one has to take into consideration that the texture he used, especially to paint a background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different means of showing reality. He was a fine portraitist and had very good powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care, not knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of centuries later who would dispute about these archaic instruments). However what is of some interest to me i! s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing chantarelles, red strings on the bass side from the 3rd
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Yes, but Eleonore was musical and could play, so the question is why she would borrow a strangely looking prop lute instead of the instrument that she new how to play. Normally a musician wants to be pictured with his own instrument. I am not saying that everything looks correct in this lute for me, but I would be far from jumping into a conclusion that it couldn't have been a real instrument of her in playing condition, because we are dealing here with a painting, not a photograph. To be clear, I have to say that I am not defending any theory, because we all can only be guessing. However I tried to draw your attention to some details which are interesting for me especially the idea of octave stringing with omission of chantarelles which might be good for continuo playing. Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez wayne cripps w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 19:20: There is a picture in the National Gallery of Scotland of a woman playing a theorbo, with the comment that she couldn't play, she borrowed it for the painting, and then she didn't return it. I didn't make a note of the details, but it was in a book catalog of the museum. Wayne Begin forwarded message: From: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten Date: July 20, 2012 1:04:43 PM EDT To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Thank you Martyn, Sorry, I've pushed the button too early by mistake. No, I am sorry, unfortunately it is not known to me, but I can't see the reason for which she would take for a portrait an instrument that she didn't play instead of an instrument that she did. Jaroslaw Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 18:46: Thank you Jaroslaw, You write 'There is a strong evidence that Eleonore very often accompanied Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis.' - is there any record of what instrument(s) Eleonore actually played at these little concerts? Martyn --- On Fri, 20/7/12, Jaros“aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: Jaros“aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 17:35 Just another thought. Eleonore married Detrich von Keyserling who was a very close friend of Frederick II. In 1744 she gave birth to her daughter Adelaide. Frederick decided to be Adelaide's godfather and during the baptism ceremony he was keeping the child in his arms. Soon Keyserlings were moved to Schloss Schonhausen according to Frederick's will. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schönhausen_Palace This was the place were Frederick's wife Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick-Bevern resided, as a result of Frederick's animosity towards her (he couldn't accept her in Potsdam). There is a strong evidence that Eleonore very often accompanied Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis. If this information is correct it becomes apparent the the instrument on Eleonore's portrait is not a stage prop. If she was to accompany the Queen, and I believe this is what must have been the case (I couldn't imagine the Queen accompanying Eleonore) it is very possible that Eleonore decided to transfer her lute into a continuo instrument. In short, what we can observe on the painting must have been her endeavors to please the Queen. If she was successful is another matter. Jaroslaw Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 14:24: Thanks for this Jaroslaw, You may be right, but Pesne wouldn't be the first good painter to get a technical details wrong - perhaps of no real consequence to him. But if it is an absolutley precise depiction then some worrying things about the general disposition of the instrument make me a bit sceptical that any meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Noteably, the first string running to the edge of the fingerboard at the neck/body join even though the third nut grooves are used. Do we know is she actually played the lute or is this just an artistic pose? If the latter this might be a dud lute being used as a sort of stage prop. Martyn --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 12:52 Dear Martyn, It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into direct conclusions is another matter. First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Jaroslaw, Just conjecture, but I would not use a working instrument to pose for many hours for a painting of this detail. I keep mine in a case at all times it is not being played to help keep it in tune. Do you think she would tolerate a lute of her own that dirty? In that dress? Louis Aull -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Luis, We live in very different times. In past people were accustomed to things that we wouldn't tolerate. As far as I know many people were portrait with real instruments, otherwise we could say that all iconography is rubbish. Is portrait of Moutton just a rubbish? Was he holding a prop? A very reputable lute maker made an exact copy of that instrument by making computer calculations on measurements taken from the very picture. As far as painting as an art is concerned there are ways to make things much easier for a model like taking some sketches and then assembling everything afterwards without a model. Then some corrections are made by confronting it with reality. I am sure she wasn't posing in her garden as can be seen on the picture. The whole background was added independently. The whole beauty of Rococo (obviously if you like it) is in that mixture of reality of figures and fantasy of landscapes. A little bit soppy it is, but this is the way people loved it at that time. About your concerns on the dirty soundboard I'd say that one has to be very cautious in making such statements as the texture of Rococo paintings is usually very uneven, impressionistic, unclear, colorful, without photographic gloss, and therefore it can't be taken as if it was a reality. I can't see any dirt, sorry. It's just shading. Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez Louis Aull w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 20:07: Jaroslaw, Just conjecture, but I would not use a working instrument to pose for many hours for a painting of this detail. I keep mine in a case at all times it is not being played to help keep it in tune. Do you think she would tolerate a lute of her own that dirty? In that dress? Louis Aull -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Dear Jaroslaw, That's fascinating, I'd never looked for a high res image and had never noticed. I'm sure you're right that the coloured strings imply octave stringing, rare up as far as the 3rd course though it is. The empty nut grooves for 2 top strings are a bit more of a puzzle because the current top string goes to the extreme end of the bridge, so either the neck never was on at the right angle (unlikely for an instrument belonging to such a rich well-connected lady, and anyway why then the empty grooves) or she has spread the bridge courses as well as removed one or two top courses. It's ended up as an 11 course instrument and there is a fair amount of 11 course music intended for liuto attiorbato, and the double diapason courses are also a liuto attiorbato feature rather than an Italian theorbo feature, and imply a relatively short grand jeu. But that's rather early for this date and anyway the wrong country. Maybe it's a Baron style tuning for continuo of D min but omitting the top course, which wouldn't necessarily require tuning the whole instrument lower. All very intriguing! Also notice she is using a ribbon strap in a slightly modern round the shoulder style but going to a button on the neckblock rather than to the extension. Most of those neckblock buttons on surviving lutes are too small to function in this way and we normally assume they implied a tight gut cord between the buttons which was hooked onto a clothing button. This looks more like the style of ribbon/strap used in the Watteau painting of a similar period http://tinyurl.com/d95ag2a This usage implies that the main stability was created by a constant pressure forwards with the left-hand thumb. Maybe the French comparison of playing style and fashionable clothing might suggest that she is simply playing 11 course French music? Best wishes, David At 21:12 +0200 19/7/12, =?iso-8859-2?Q?Jaros^3aw_Lipski?wrote: The portrait of Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten is quite well known, I wonder however if anyone examined some details of her lute. There are two interesting details that are easily visible in closer magnification. 1/ There are 2 free grooves of the nut on the treble side 2/ Beginning from the 3rd course every string within a course on the bass side is red (octave tuning?). I just wonder if she got rid of chantarelles and tuned down all instrument to set it for continuo playing? Any ideas? JL To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk --
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Looks like eight double courses on the petit jeu and another four double diapasons. The red (loaded?) strings start at the third course, suggesting that it had a low pitch. The first course seems to start some distance away from the edge of the fingerboard at the nut, but passes closer to the edge where the neck meets the body. It also attaches near to the extreme end of the bridge. It's not any 'standard' lute type as far as I can see. I'm puzzled. It's a pity we can't see enough of the lute to count the pegs. Could there be any symbolism involved in the two empty grooves? What is the date of this painting? Bill PS Notice how the neck strap attaches at the neck end of the body of the lute, rather than at the pegbox. From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 19 July 2012, 20:45 Subject: [LUTE] Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten here is a link if interested [1]http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-e leonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von- keyserlingk.jpg JL To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-eleonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von-keyserlingk.jpg 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
According to Peter Greenaway all baroque painting is pure symbolism. RT On 7/19/2012 4:32 PM, William Samson wrote: Looks like eight double courses on the petit jeu and another four double diapasons. The red (loaded?) strings start at the third course, suggesting that it had a low pitch. The first course seems to start some distance away from the edge of the fingerboard at the nut, but passes closer to the edge where the neck meets the body. It also attaches near to the extreme end of the bridge. It's not any 'standard' lute type as far as I can see. I'm puzzled. It's a pity we can't see enough of the lute to count the pegs. Could there be any symbolism involved in the two empty grooves? What is the date of this painting? Bill PS Notice how the neck strap attaches at the neck end of the body of the lute, rather than at the pegbox. From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 19 July 2012, 20:45 Subject: [LUTE] Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten here is a link if interested [1]http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-e leonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von- keyserlingk.jpg JL To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-eleonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von-keyserlingk.jpg 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Sorry, correction, I miscounted the diapasons it's 12 course instrument, even odder. Though, if she was given to wholesale restringing, it could imply a restrung theorbo (or more likely archlute given the apparent size) with the normal 8 single diapasons becoming here four octave strung diapasons. Best wishes, David Dear Jaroslaw, That's fascinating, I'd never looked for a high res image and had never noticed. I'm sure you're right that the coloured strings imply octave stringing, rare up as far as the 3rd course though it is. The empty nut grooves for 2 top strings are a bit more of a puzzle because the current top string goes to the extreme end of the bridge, so either the neck never was on at the right angle (unlikely for an instrument belonging to such a rich well-connected lady, and anyway why then the empty grooves) or she has spread the bridge courses as well as removed one or two top courses. It's ended up as an 11 course instrument and there is a fair amount of 11 course music intended for liuto attiorbato, and the double diapason courses are also a liuto attiorbato feature rather than an Italian theorbo feature, and imply a relatively short grand jeu. But that's rather early for this date and anyway the wrong country. Maybe it's a Baron style tuning for continuo of D min but omitting the top course, which wouldn't necessarily require tuning the whole instrument lower. All very intriguing! Also notice she is using a ribbon strap in a slightly modern round the shoulder style but going to a button on the neckblock rather than to the extension. Most of those neckblock buttons on surviving lutes are too small to function in this way and we normally assume they implied a tight gut cord between the buttons which was hooked onto a clothing button. This looks more like the style of ribbon/strap used in the Watteau painting of a similar period http://tinyurl.com/d95ag2a This usage implies that the main stability was created by a constant pressure forwards with the left-hand thumb. Maybe the French comparison of playing style and fashionable clothing might suggest that she is simply playing 11 course French music? Best wishes, David At 21:12 +0200 19/7/12, =?iso-8859-2?Q?Jaros^3aw_Lipski?wrote: The portrait of Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten is quite well known, I wonder however if anyone examined some details of her lute. There are two interesting details that are easily visible in closer magnification. 1/ There are 2 free grooves of the nut on the treble side 2/ Beginning from the 3rd course every string within a course on the bass side is red (octave tuning?). I just wonder if she got rid of chantarelles and tuned down all instrument to set it for continuo playing? Any ideas? JL To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk --
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
removed one or two top courses. It's ended up as an 11 course instrument and there is a fair amount of 11 course music intended for liuto attiorbato, I count four double courses on the extension and eight double course over the fret-board, totalling twelve courses. The coloured strings seem to be the fundamentals. There is more space between the 3rd to 9th courses on the lute than between the outer courses. So the 1st course, running from the groove of the 3rd course, probably is attached to the holes of the 1st course in the bridge. To my eyes, the spacing of the empty 1st and 2nd grooves in the nut points at single courses. To summarize, this seems to be a 14c baroque lute with a rather uncommon disposition of the strings, viz. ten courses on the fret-board, and four courses on the extension. She seems to use it, nevertheless, as a 12c theorbo (note the position of her right hand). Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Dear David, Indeed it looks like 8+4 setting. The 1st string runs almost to the edge of the bridge, but when examined on a big screen it's difficult to say if there is any hole left on the bridge (treble side). As for a ribbon stripe attached to the neck block button it could be that this kind of arrangement was favored by ladies because of side hoops (panniers) of their robes, which probably used to give much better stability and support for a lute. Another extraordinary feature of this lute is the number of fingerboard frets. I am not sure as the paint is a little bit smudged, but it looks like there are 11 frets + 2 wooden on the soundboard. All in all very unusual. Best wishes Jaroslaw Wiadomość napisana przez David Van Edwards w dniu 19 lip 2012, o godz. 22:57: Sorry, correction, I miscounted the diapasons it's 12 course instrument, even odder. Though, if she was given to wholesale restringing, it could imply a restrung theorbo (or more likely archlute given the apparent size) with the normal 8 single diapasons becoming here four octave strung diapasons. Best wishes, David Dear Jaroslaw, That's fascinating, I'd never looked for a high res image and had never noticed. I'm sure you're right that the coloured strings imply octave stringing, rare up as far as the 3rd course though it is. The empty nut grooves for 2 top strings are a bit more of a puzzle because the current top string goes to the extreme end of the bridge, so either the neck never was on at the right angle (unlikely for an instrument belonging to such a rich well-connected lady, and anyway why then the empty grooves) or she has spread the bridge courses as well as removed one or two top courses. It's ended up as an 11 course instrument and there is a fair amount of 11 course music intended for liuto attiorbato, and the double diapason courses are also a liuto attiorbato feature rather than an Italian theorbo feature, and imply a relatively short grand jeu. But that's rather early for this date and anyway the wrong country. Maybe it's a Baron style tuning for continuo of D min but omitting the top course, which wouldn't necessarily require tuning the whole instrument lower. All very intriguing! Also notice she is using a ribbon strap in a slightly modern round the shoulder style but going to a button on the neckblock rather than to the extension. Most of those neckblock buttons on surviving lutes are too small to function in this way and we normally assume they implied a tight gut cord between the buttons which was hooked onto a clothing button. This looks more like the style of ribbon/strap used in the Watteau painting of a similar period http://tinyurl.com/d95ag2a This usage implies that the main stability was created by a constant pressure forwards with the left-hand thumb. Maybe the French comparison of playing style and fashionable clothing might suggest that she is simply playing 11 course French music? Best wishes, David At 21:12 +0200 19/7/12, =?iso-8859-2?Q?Jaros^3aw_Lipski?wrote: The portrait of Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten is quite well known, I wonder however if anyone examined some details of her lute. There are two interesting details that are easily visible in closer magnification. 1/ There are 2 free grooves of the nut on the treble side 2/ Beginning from the 3rd course every string within a course on the bass side is red (octave tuning?). I just wonder if she got rid of chantarelles and tuned down all instrument to set it for continuo playing? Any ideas? JL To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk --
[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
Bill, This portrait was painted by Antoine Pesne (1683-1757) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Pesne Symbolism in art was used since ancient times. Baroque period is no exception, however if a painter intended some kind of an allegory it would be more pronaunced and it wouldn't concern just one detail. At least I wouldn't need to use a magnifying glass or a computer to see a small element that no one normally seems to notice. For me it rather looks just like a portrait of a noble lady. Her instrument is surely a little bit unusual, but it could be explained in some ways, as we try to. All the best Jaroslaw Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez William Samson w dniu 19 lip 2012, o godz. 22:32: Looks like eight double courses on the petit jeu and another four double diapasons. The red (loaded?) strings start at the third course, suggesting that it had a low pitch. The first course seems to start some distance away from the edge of the fingerboard at the nut, but passes closer to the edge where the neck meets the body. It also attaches near to the extreme end of the bridge. It's not any 'standard' lute type as far as I can see. I'm puzzled. It's a pity we can't see enough of the lute to count the pegs. Could there be any symbolism involved in the two empty grooves? What is the date of this painting? Bill PS Notice how the neck strap attaches at the neck end of the body of the lute, rather than at the pegbox. From: Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 19 July 2012, 20:45 Subject: [LUTE] Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten here is a link if interested http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-eleonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von-keyserlingk.jpg JL To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
