[LUTE] Re: prostitution
I doubt it. The lute was not a lower-class instrument, and a streetwalker would not likely have one. It would be an expensive way to advertise in any event. I suppose a courtesan might acquire one, but she wouldn’t be parading around with it on the street; her services were, in theory, exclusive. > On Aug 10, 2018, at 5:13 AM, Luca Manassero wrote: > > As far as I remember, a lady walking with a lute in Venezia (XVIth > century) was considered a prostitute. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
Good one, Roman! It is along the lines of Corneille's "l'effet se
recule" ("les fesses reculent"), or Swift's "Master Bates".
On 08/10/2018 04:06 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
Another Purcell item, priceless-
“On the night he was wedded quoth Inigo Jones etc,
...in I go Jones!”
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 10, 2018, at 5:37 AM, Alain Veylit wrote:
I seem to remember reading about Purcell being particularly targeted by this
kind of mirthy-ful mis-attribution. My memory can well be wrong. Most of
Purcell's music was published posthumously and it was very prolific (800 works
for someone who died at age 36). Playford, the publisher of the Orpheus
Britannicus, may have had an interest in stretching the attributions of
(particularly bawdy) pieces to a famous and respected musician, if only just
for fun and financial gain --
I am a little bit suspicious that such a high brow musician could also be the celebrated author of
so many popular tavern songs. It is not impossible that he actually wrote 200 songs and 50 catches,
all the while composing more serious stuff on the side just to make a living, but it does not seem
impossible either that among those 250 very profane works some popular tunes directly issued from
the taverns found their way under his name, for sheer publicity purposes. "Pox on you"
and the "Indian queen" might be the fruits of the same mind, but did he have time to do
both really? I admit I don't have any solid proof, but I am also highly suspicious of English
publishing practices at the time (before the first copyrights law) . I would be happy to be proven
wrong and recognize a truly ubiquitous genius. Also, theater music was definitely a source of
income, but catches were unlikely to provide much financial support to the composer, while they
would be for a publisher.
Just imagine if J.S. Bach was credited by a contemporary publisher with a song entitled
"Once, twice, thrice, I Julia tried", would that raise an eye brow?? Just curious: did
Mozart compose anything we'd consider "bawdy" or tavern material?? Or other composers,
besides Lasso??
On 08/09/2018 10:06 PM, howard posner wrote:
On Aug 9, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Alain Veylit wrote:
Like Henry Purcell, who seems to have found his name attached to a very large
number of bawdy songs in 17th century England, if I recall correctly.
Is there any reason to think he didn’t write the music for all those catches?
I’m not aware that his authorship has ever been questioned.
He lived in an age of relaxed sexual mores and worked a great deal in the
theater.
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
You're right Jim, and many paintings by renowned artists show bawdy stuff to back up your claim. Why would a musician not tackle the same stuff? Also, in such dire times some fun would surely have been welcome. I am surprised about the lack of common sense applied to history. These were not aliens, they were human beings, with sometimes very weird habits. Just like today. Am 10.08.2018 um 17:12 schrieb Jim Dunn: I'd say it's more than likely named for prostitutes, and Purcell very likely wrote the dirty stuff, especially after the Chapel Royal purge forced him to chase other income streams⦠Plus wan't he supposed to be rather fond of singing in the pub? I think we often underestimate the place of the bawdy in Early Modern life and its sense of humour â the ever prevalent protest of the pious can go some way to indicating how rude everyday life was for most but the very top strata of society. In a city you were pretty much pressed up against various bodily functions and those who service them, and the satire they inspire as well as the battle against them seem just as present. After all, Pepys is a lusty gent, and the British at least had a great love of saucy anatomical street names... When thinking of past sexual morality I'm often reminded of a 17th C German prayer sheet (on p. 106 here [1]https://bit.ly/2M6Guml ) where Christ's wounds and a nail are pretty unashamedly sexed up, as if to repurpose sexual feeling as devotion. I'm not saying that this reveals any pious motivation behind any naughty tunes by Purcell or Lasso or others, but I do think it's revealing about how both sacred and sexy were on people's minds enough that someone would try to reconcile them so awkwardly. Doesn't do it for me though *quietly vomits* On 10 Aug 2018, 13:07 +0200, r.turov...@gmail.com, wrote: Another Purcell item, priceless- "On the night he was wedded quoth Inigo Jones etc, ..in I go Jones!" Sent from my iPhone On Aug 10, 2018, at 5:37 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: I seem to remember reading about Purcell being particularly targeted by this kind of mirthy-ful mis-attribution. My memory can well be wrong. Most of Purcell's music was published posthumously and it was very prolific (800 works for someone who died at age 36). Playford, the publisher of the Orpheus Britannicus, may have had an interest in stretching the attributions of (particularly bawdy) pieces to a famous and respected musician, if only just for fun and financial gain -- I am a little bit suspicious that such a high brow musician could also be the celebrated author of so many popular tavern songs. It is not impossible that he actually wrote 200 songs and 50 catches, all the while composing more serious stuff on the side just to make a living, but it does not seem impossible either that among those 250 very profane works some popular tunes directly issued from the taverns found their way under his name, for sheer publicity purposes. "Pox on you" and the "Indian queen" might be the fruits of the same mind, but did he have time to do both really? I admit I don't have any solid proof, but I am also highly suspicious of English publishing practices at the time (before the first copyrights law) . I would be happy to be proven wrong and recognize a truly ubiquitous genius. Also, theater music was definitely a source of income, but catches were unlikely to provide much financial support to the composer, while they would be for a publisher. Just imagine if J.S. Bach was credited by a contemporary publisher with a song entitled "Once, twice, thrice, I Julia tried", would that raise an eye brow?? Just curious: did Mozart compose anything we'd consider "bawdy" or tavern material?? Or other composers, besides Lasso?? On 08/09/2018 10:06 PM, howard posner wrote: On Aug 9, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Alain Veylit wrote: Like Henry Purcell, who seems to have found his name attached to a very large number of bawdy songs in 17th century England, if I recall correctly. Is there any reason to think he didn't write the music for all those catches? I'm not aware that his authorship has ever been questioned. He lived in an age of relaxed sexual mores and worked a great deal in the theater. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://bit.ly/2M6Guml
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
I'd say it's more than likely named for prostitutes, and Purcell very likely wrote the dirty stuff, especially after the Chapel Royal purge forced him to chase other income streams⦠Plus wan't he supposed to be rather fond of singing in the pub? I think we often underestimate the place of the bawdy in Early Modern life and its sense of humour â the ever prevalent protest of the pious can go some way to indicating how rude everyday life was for most but the very top strata of society. In a city you were pretty much pressed up against various bodily functions and those who service them, and the satire they inspire as well as the battle against them seem just as present. After all, Pepys is a lusty gent, and the British at least had a great love of saucy anatomical street names... When thinking of past sexual morality I'm often reminded of a 17th C German prayer sheet (on p. 106 here [1]https://bit.ly/2M6Guml ) where Christ's wounds and a nail are pretty unashamedly sexed up, as if to repurpose sexual feeling as devotion. I'm not saying that this reveals any pious motivation behind any naughty tunes by Purcell or Lasso or others, but I do think it's revealing about how both sacred and sexy were on people's minds enough that someone would try to reconcile them so awkwardly. Doesn't do it for me though *quietly vomits* On 10 Aug 2018, 13:07 +0200, r.turov...@gmail.com, wrote: Another Purcell item, priceless- "On the night he was wedded quoth Inigo Jones etc, ..in I go Jones!" Sent from my iPhone On Aug 10, 2018, at 5:37 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: I seem to remember reading about Purcell being particularly targeted by this kind of mirthy-ful mis-attribution. My memory can well be wrong. Most of Purcell's music was published posthumously and it was very prolific (800 works for someone who died at age 36). Playford, the publisher of the Orpheus Britannicus, may have had an interest in stretching the attributions of (particularly bawdy) pieces to a famous and respected musician, if only just for fun and financial gain -- I am a little bit suspicious that such a high brow musician could also be the celebrated author of so many popular tavern songs. It is not impossible that he actually wrote 200 songs and 50 catches, all the while composing more serious stuff on the side just to make a living, but it does not seem impossible either that among those 250 very profane works some popular tunes directly issued from the taverns found their way under his name, for sheer publicity purposes. "Pox on you" and the "Indian queen" might be the fruits of the same mind, but did he have time to do both really? I admit I don't have any solid proof, but I am also highly suspicious of English publishing practices at the time (before the first copyrights law) . I would be happy to be proven wrong and recognize a truly ubiquitous genius. Also, theater music was definitely a source of income, but catches were unlikely to provide much financial support to the composer, while they would be for a publisher. Just imagine if J.S. Bach was credited by a contemporary publisher with a song entitled "Once, twice, thrice, I Julia tried", would that raise an eye brow?? Just curious: did Mozart compose anything we'd consider "bawdy" or tavern material?? Or other composers, besides Lasso?? On 08/09/2018 10:06 PM, howard posner wrote: On Aug 9, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Alain Veylit wrote: Like Henry Purcell, who seems to have found his name attached to a very large number of bawdy songs in 17th century England, if I recall correctly. Is there any reason to think he didn't write the music for all those catches? I'm not aware that his authorship has ever been questioned. He lived in an age of relaxed sexual mores and worked a great deal in the theater. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://bit.ly/2M6Guml
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
well, there are still "two-bit" deals out there, but those are too risky, in this day and age. RT On 8/10/2018 10:41 AM, Daniel Winheld wrote: I can't even remember when 2 cents would get me anything at all, with a lady and her lute. DW On 8/10/2018 7:38 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: You have truly long reaching memories! RT Sent from my iPhone On Aug 10, 2018, at 8:13 AM, Luca Manassero wrote: As far as I remember, a lady walking with a lute in Venezia (XVIth century) was considered a prostitute. My 2 cents, Luca On ven, 10 ago 2018 12:57:44 +0200 r.turov...@gmail.com wrote Lute in a brothel was a large Dutch sarcasm, lute being a symbol of domestic harmony in the baroque visual symbolism. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 9, 2018, at 6:25 PM, Alain Veylit <[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote: There is a piece in Dd.2.11 entitled: "Catin" (by Orlando di Lasso!). Yesterday I saw one entitled "la pute". What are the odds that neither title would not refer to their modern meaning of "prostitute"? This also reminds me of the not so secret behind "green sleeves". Dutch paintings show many scenes of lute music with at least hints of seduction or prostitution. But it can also be easy to jump to conclusions. I thought Lasso was a rather serious composer... Alain To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
LOL
On ven, 10 ago 2018 16:38:14 +0200 wrote
You have truly long reaching memories!
RT
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 10, 2018, at 8:13 AM, Luca Manassero <[1]l...@manassero.net>
wrote:
>
> As far as I remember, a lady walking with a lute in Venezia (XVIth
> century) was considered a prostitute.
> My 2 cents,
> Luca
> On ven, 10 ago 2018 12:57:44 +0200
> [2]r.turov...@gmail.com<[3]r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> Lute in a brothel was a large Dutch sarcasm, lute being a symbol of
> domestic harmony in the baroque visual symbolism.
> Sent from my iPhone
>> On Aug 9, 2018, at 6:25 PM, Alain Veylit
> <[1][4]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
>>
>> There is a piece in Dd.2.11 entitled: "Catin" (by Orlando di
Lasso!).
> Yesterday I saw one entitled "la pute". What are the odds that
neither
> title would not refer to their modern meaning of "prostitute"?
>> This also reminds me of the not so secret behind "green sleeves".
> Dutch paintings show many scenes of lute music with at least hints of
> seduction or prostitution.
>> But it can also be easy to jump to conclusions. I thought Lasso was
a
> rather serious composer...
>> Alain
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [2][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[6]al...@musickshandmade.com
> 2. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. mailto:l...@manassero.net
2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
3. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
4. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
I can't even remember when 2 cents would get me anything at all, with a
lady and her lute.
DW
On 8/10/2018 7:38 AM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
You have truly long reaching memories!
RT
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 10, 2018, at 8:13 AM, Luca Manassero wrote:
As far as I remember, a lady walking with a lute in Venezia (XVIth
century) was considered a prostitute.
My 2 cents,
Luca
On ven, 10 ago 2018 12:57:44 +0200
r.turov...@gmail.com wrote
Lute in a brothel was a large Dutch sarcasm, lute being a symbol of
domestic harmony in the baroque visual symbolism.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 9, 2018, at 6:25 PM, Alain Veylit
<[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
There is a piece in Dd.2.11 entitled: "Catin" (by Orlando di Lasso!).
Yesterday I saw one entitled "la pute". What are the odds that neither
title would not refer to their modern meaning of "prostitute"?
This also reminds me of the not so secret behind "green sleeves".
Dutch paintings show many scenes of lute music with at least hints of
seduction or prostitution.
But it can also be easy to jump to conclusions. I thought Lasso was a
rather serious composer...
Alain
To get on or off this list see list information at
[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
You have truly long reaching memories! RT Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 10, 2018, at 8:13 AM, Luca Manassero wrote: > > As far as I remember, a lady walking with a lute in Venezia (XVIth > century) was considered a prostitute. > My 2 cents, > Luca > On ven, 10 ago 2018 12:57:44 +0200 > r.turov...@gmail.com wrote > > Lute in a brothel was a large Dutch sarcasm, lute being a symbol of > domestic harmony in the baroque visual symbolism. > Sent from my iPhone >> On Aug 9, 2018, at 6:25 PM, Alain Veylit > <[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote: >> >> There is a piece in Dd.2.11 entitled: "Catin" (by Orlando di Lasso!). > Yesterday I saw one entitled "la pute". What are the odds that neither > title would not refer to their modern meaning of "prostitute"? >> This also reminds me of the not so secret behind "green sleeves". > Dutch paintings show many scenes of lute music with at least hints of > seduction or prostitution. >> But it can also be easy to jump to conclusions. I thought Lasso was a > rather serious composer... >> Alain >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com > 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
As far as I remember, a lady walking with a lute in Venezia (XVIth
century) was considered a prostitute.
My 2 cents,
Luca
On ven, 10 ago 2018 12:57:44 +0200
r.turov...@gmail.com wrote
Lute in a brothel was a large Dutch sarcasm, lute being a symbol of
domestic harmony in the baroque visual symbolism.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 9, 2018, at 6:25 PM, Alain Veylit
<[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
>
> There is a piece in Dd.2.11 entitled: "Catin" (by Orlando di Lasso!).
Yesterday I saw one entitled "la pute". What are the odds that neither
title would not refer to their modern meaning of "prostitute"?
> This also reminds me of the not so secret behind "green sleeves".
Dutch paintings show many scenes of lute music with at least hints of
seduction or prostitution.
> But it can also be easy to jump to conclusions. I thought Lasso was a
rather serious composer...
> Alain
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
Another Purcell item, priceless- “On the night he was wedded quoth Inigo Jones etc, ..in I go Jones!” Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 10, 2018, at 5:37 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: > > I seem to remember reading about Purcell being particularly targeted by this > kind of mirthy-ful mis-attribution. My memory can well be wrong. Most of > Purcell's music was published posthumously and it was very prolific (800 > works for someone who died at age 36). Playford, the publisher of the Orpheus > Britannicus, may have had an interest in stretching the attributions of > (particularly bawdy) pieces to a famous and respected musician, if only just > for fun and financial gain -- > > I am a little bit suspicious that such a high brow musician could also be the > celebrated author of so many popular tavern songs. It is not impossible that > he actually wrote 200 songs and 50 catches, all the while composing more > serious stuff on the side just to make a living, but it does not seem > impossible either that among those 250 very profane works some popular tunes > directly issued from the taverns found their way under his name, for sheer > publicity purposes. "Pox on you" and the "Indian queen" might be the fruits > of the same mind, but did he have time to do both really? I admit I don't > have any solid proof, but I am also highly suspicious of English publishing > practices at the time (before the first copyrights law) . I would be happy to > be proven wrong and recognize a truly ubiquitous genius. Also, theater music > was definitely a source of income, but catches were unlikely to provide much > financial support to the composer, while they would be for a publisher. > > Just imagine if J.S. Bach was credited by a contemporary publisher with a > song entitled "Once, twice, thrice, I Julia tried", would that raise an eye > brow?? Just curious: did Mozart compose anything we'd consider "bawdy" or > tavern material?? Or other composers, besides Lasso?? > > > > On 08/09/2018 10:06 PM, howard posner wrote: >>> On Aug 9, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Alain Veylit wrote: >>> >>> Like Henry Purcell, who seems to have found his name attached to a very >>> large number of bawdy songs in 17th century England, if I recall correctly. >> Is there any reason to think he didn’t write the music for all those >> catches? I’m not aware that his authorship has ever been questioned. >> >> He lived in an age of relaxed sexual mores and worked a great deal in the >> theater. >> > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
Once, Twice, Thrice has unmistakable Purcell musicality. So... Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 10, 2018, at 5:37 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: > > I seem to remember reading about Purcell being particularly targeted by this > kind of mirthy-ful mis-attribution. My memory can well be wrong. Most of > Purcell's music was published posthumously and it was very prolific (800 > works for someone who died at age 36). Playford, the publisher of the Orpheus > Britannicus, may have had an interest in stretching the attributions of > (particularly bawdy) pieces to a famous and respected musician, if only just > for fun and financial gain -- > > I am a little bit suspicious that such a high brow musician could also be the > celebrated author of so many popular tavern songs. It is not impossible that > he actually wrote 200 songs and 50 catches, all the while composing more > serious stuff on the side just to make a living, but it does not seem > impossible either that among those 250 very profane works some popular tunes > directly issued from the taverns found their way under his name, for sheer > publicity purposes. "Pox on you" and the "Indian queen" might be the fruits > of the same mind, but did he have time to do both really? I admit I don't > have any solid proof, but I am also highly suspicious of English publishing > practices at the time (before the first copyrights law) . I would be happy to > be proven wrong and recognize a truly ubiquitous genius. Also, theater music > was definitely a source of income, but catches were unlikely to provide much > financial support to the composer, while they would be for a publisher. > > Just imagine if J.S. Bach was credited by a contemporary publisher with a > song entitled "Once, twice, thrice, I Julia tried", would that raise an eye > brow?? Just curious: did Mozart compose anything we'd consider "bawdy" or > tavern material?? Or other composers, besides Lasso?? > > > > On 08/09/2018 10:06 PM, howard posner wrote: >>> On Aug 9, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Alain Veylit wrote: >>> >>> Like Henry Purcell, who seems to have found his name attached to a very >>> large number of bawdy songs in 17th century England, if I recall correctly. >> Is there any reason to think he didn’t write the music for all those >> catches? I’m not aware that his authorship has ever been questioned. >> >> He lived in an age of relaxed sexual mores and worked a great deal in the >> theater. >> > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
Lute in a brothel was a large Dutch sarcasm, lute being a symbol of domestic harmony in the baroque visual symbolism. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 9, 2018, at 6:25 PM, Alain Veylit wrote: > > There is a piece in Dd.2.11 entitled: "Catin" (by Orlando di Lasso!). > Yesterday I saw one entitled "la pute". What are the odds that neither title > would not refer to their modern meaning of "prostitute"? > This also reminds me of the not so secret behind "green sleeves". Dutch > paintings show many scenes of lute music with at least hints of seduction or > prostitution. > But it can also be easy to jump to conclusions. I thought Lasso was a rather > serious composer... > Alain > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 at 17:38, Alain Veylit <[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote: Just imagine if J.S. Bach was credited by a contemporary publisher with a song entitled "Once, twice, thrice, I Julia tried", would that raise an eye brow?? Just curious: did Mozart compose anything we'd consider "bawdy" or tavern material?? Or other composers, besides Lasso?? 'Leck mich im Arsch' comes to mind. [2]http://mentalfloss.com/article/55247/3-dirty-songs-mozart On 08/09/2018 10:06 PM, howard posner wrote: >> On Aug 9, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Alain Veylit <[3]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote: >> >>Like Henry Purcell, who seems to have found his name attached to a very large number of bawdy songs in 17th century England, if I recall correctly. > Is there any reason to think he didn't write the music for all those catches? I'm not aware that his authorship has ever been questioned. > > He lived in an age of relaxed sexual mores and worked a great deal in the theater. > To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 2. http://mentalfloss.com/article/55247/3-dirty-songs-mozart 3. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
I seem to remember reading about Purcell being particularly targeted by this kind of mirthy-ful mis-attribution. My memory can well be wrong. Most of Purcell's music was published posthumously and it was very prolific (800 works for someone who died at age 36). Playford, the publisher of the Orpheus Britannicus, may have had an interest in stretching the attributions of (particularly bawdy) pieces to a famous and respected musician, if only just for fun and financial gain -- I am a little bit suspicious that such a high brow musician could also be the celebrated author of so many popular tavern songs. It is not impossible that he actually wrote 200 songs and 50 catches, all the while composing more serious stuff on the side just to make a living, but it does not seem impossible either that among those 250 very profane works some popular tunes directly issued from the taverns found their way under his name, for sheer publicity purposes. "Pox on you" and the "Indian queen" might be the fruits of the same mind, but did he have time to do both really? I admit I don't have any solid proof, but I am also highly suspicious of English publishing practices at the time (before the first copyrights law) . I would be happy to be proven wrong and recognize a truly ubiquitous genius. Also, theater music was definitely a source of income, but catches were unlikely to provide much financial support to the composer, while they would be for a publisher. Just imagine if J.S. Bach was credited by a contemporary publisher with a song entitled "Once, twice, thrice, I Julia tried", would that raise an eye brow?? Just curious: did Mozart compose anything we'd consider "bawdy" or tavern material?? Or other composers, besides Lasso?? On 08/09/2018 10:06 PM, howard posner wrote: On Aug 9, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Alain Veylit wrote: Like Henry Purcell, who seems to have found his name attached to a very large number of bawdy songs in 17th century England, if I recall correctly. Is there any reason to think he didn’t write the music for all those catches? I’m not aware that his authorship has ever been questioned. He lived in an age of relaxed sexual mores and worked a great deal in the theater. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
ok, you win *sigh* Am 10.08.2018 um 09:35 schrieb howard posner: On Aug 10, 2018, at 12:07 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: We already established that Lasso was a serious composer, and that serious does not mean stick up his ass. We established that you don’t know the meaning of the English word “serious.” I asked what adjective you wish to apply to describe Lasso. You did not. I told you that “serious” did not mean “stick up his ass,” and you then apologized for being German (presumably meaning that your understanding of English was limited) and asked "what word would you choose?” This clearly did not refer to Lassus, but to “stick up his ass.” It may not have been what you meant, but it is what you said. I gave you a list of potential synonyms, which I thought quite helpful. If I thought you wanted a one-word description of Lassus, I would not have responded. A great, and extremely prolific, composer, cannot be summed up in an adjective. I suggested dedicated, which can also imply dedication to humor once in a while. This makes no sense. You’re saying that if you tell me Lassus was a “dedicated” composer, I should assume you mean he was dedicated to humor once in a while? I would assume no such thing. “Dedicated” implies the opposite, inasmuch as it connotes single-mindedness. Let me suggest that we don’t burden the list with any more of this. Email me privately if, for some reason, you want to continue this discussion. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
> On Aug 10, 2018, at 12:07 AM, Tristan von Neumann > wrote: > > We already established that Lasso was a serious composer, and that serious > does not mean stick up his ass. We established that you don’t know the meaning of the English word “serious.” > I asked what adjective you wish to apply to describe Lasso. You did not. I told you that “serious” did not mean “stick up his ass,” and you then apologized for being German (presumably meaning that your understanding of English was limited) and asked "what word would you choose?” This clearly did not refer to Lassus, but to “stick up his ass.” It may not have been what you meant, but it is what you said. I gave you a list of potential synonyms, which I thought quite helpful. If I thought you wanted a one-word description of Lassus, I would not have responded. A great, and extremely prolific, composer, cannot be summed up in an adjective. > I suggested dedicated, which can also imply dedication to humor once in a > while. This makes no sense. You’re saying that if you tell me Lassus was a “dedicated” composer, I should assume you mean he was dedicated to humor once in a while? I would assume no such thing. “Dedicated” implies the opposite, inasmuch as it connotes single-mindedness. Let me suggest that we don’t burden the list with any more of this. Email me privately if, for some reason, you want to continue this discussion. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
I wonder how you always choose to misunderstand. It's not humorous, just annoying. We already established that Lasso was a serious composer, and that serious does not mean stick up his ass. I asked what adjective you wish to apply to describe Lasso. I suggested dedicated, which can also imply dedication to humor once in a while. You choose to connect this to s.u.t.a. instead of Lasso with no reason whatsoever, just to say "no" and make a pseudo-funny comment. Geez. I thought this list was "troll free". Am 10.08.2018 um 07:02 schrieb howard posner: On Aug 9, 2018, at 8:58 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Sorry, I'm German. What would you choose? "Dedicated" seems more like it? No, someone with a stick up his ass is not “dedicated.” Try stuffy, priggish, prim, rigid, pompous, prissy, stiff, starched, sanctimonious, prudish, inflexible, self-righteous, fussy, goody-goody, Victorian, puritanical, straightlaced, or holier-than-thou. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
> On Aug 9, 2018, at 8:58 PM, Tristan von Neumann > wrote: > > Sorry, I'm German. > > What would you choose? > "Dedicated" seems more like it? No, someone with a stick up his ass is not “dedicated.” Try stuffy, priggish, prim, rigid, pompous, prissy, stiff, starched, sanctimonious, prudish, inflexible, self-righteous, fussy, goody-goody, Victorian, puritanical, straightlaced, or holier-than-thou. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution / greensleeves
A propos "green sleeves" - I am not an expert, but the author's appeal to question ad hoc interpretations seems generally important to me. https://earlymusicmuse.com/greensleeves1of3mythology/ In any case, the verses of greensleeves really seem to speak of love or at least deep devotion, even a prayer to god is invoked. The idea that the addressee is a prostitute would actually be astonishing rather than a possible interpretation, at least at first sight. This is visible for everybody and does not require laborious research. It follows (also visible for everybody) that the "prostitute" interpretation needs an additional assumption: either the adored woman was a prostitute, but anyway adored as a wonderful person, or these verses are not original but a later addition to change the song from a frivolous one to a real ove song. (?) Dr. Franz Mechsner Zum Kirschberg 40 D-14806 Belzig OT Borne +49(0)33841 441362 franz.mechs...@gmx.de Gesendet: Freitag, 10. August 2018 um 00:25 Uhr Von: "Alain Veylit" An: "lutelist Net" Betreff: [LUTE] Re: prostitution There is a piece in Dd.2.11 entitled: "Catin" (by Orlando di Lasso!). Yesterday I saw one entitled "la pute". What are the odds that neither title would not refer to their modern meaning of "prostitute"? This also reminds me of the not so secret behind "green sleeves". Dutch paintings show many scenes of lute music with at least hints of seduction or prostitution. But it can also be easy to jump to conclusions. I thought Lasso was a rather serious composer... Alain To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
Sorry, I'm German. What would you choose? "Dedicated" seems more like it? Am 10.08.2018 um 05:48 schrieb howard posner: On Aug 9, 2018, at 8:37 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: I meant serious in the sense that he had a stick up his a**. That’s not what “serious” means. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
> On Aug 9, 2018, at 8:37 PM, Tristan von Neumann > wrote: > > I meant serious in the sense that he had a stick up his a**. That’s not what “serious” means. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
I meant serious in the sense that he had a stick up his a**. He certainly seems like a funny guy to hang around with. The output of Sacred music does not detract from that. :) Am 10.08.2018 um 05:13 schrieb howard posner: On Aug 9, 2018, at 7:34 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Lasso was *not* a serious composer. Does this mean he never wrote a closet raga? He composed the announcement music for the "Gümpelsbrunn Nose Dance" (an early teaser trailer for an event...), but the festival is probably legendary because no town named Gümpelsbrunn is known. :) Also, he wrote a letter to his Patron, the Duke of Bavaria, which would today read something like this: "Hey, Boss, I arrived in Munich. Thanks for the stockings. We sat around and made fun of everybody, including you." ..and for the closing words: "Okay Boss, now it's time to visit the Netherlands of my wife. I haven't fd in a while." No kidding. This is the guy. Also remember his hilarious Matona mia cara, where a German landsknecht tries to sing a cool song for his girl but in very bad Italian. The final stanza also uses the F-Word. This hardly makes a case for his not being serious, but there’s lots of other evidence: Like those hilarious Penitential Psalms. And the zany Lagrime di San Pietro. And the four highly risque “Passion” (you know what he means…) settings. And the goofy Lamentations Don’t forget the 100 Magnificats. Not a serious bone in his body. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
> On Aug 9, 2018, at 7:34 PM, Tristan von Neumann > wrote: > > Lasso was *not* a serious composer. Does this mean he never wrote a closet raga? > He composed the announcement music for the "Gümpelsbrunn Nose Dance" (an > early teaser trailer for an event...), but the festival is probably legendary > because no town named Gümpelsbrunn is known. :) > > Also, he wrote a letter to his Patron, the Duke of Bavaria, which would today > read something like this: > "Hey, Boss, I arrived in Munich. Thanks for the stockings. We sat around and > made fun of everybody, including you." > > ..and for the closing words: > "Okay Boss, now it's time to visit the Netherlands of my wife. I haven't > fd in a while." > > No kidding. This is the guy. > > Also remember his hilarious Matona mia cara, where a German landsknecht tries > to sing a cool song for his girl but in very bad Italian. > The final stanza also uses the F-Word. This hardly makes a case for his not being serious, but there’s lots of other evidence: Like those hilarious Penitential Psalms. And the zany Lagrime di San Pietro. And the four highly risque “Passion” (you know what he means…) settings. And the goofy Lamentations Don’t forget the 100 Magnificats. Not a serious bone in his body. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
Lasso was *not* a serious composer. He composed the announcement music for the "Gümpelsbrunn Nose Dance" (an early teaser trailer for an event...), but the festival is probably legendary because no town named Gümpelsbrunn is known. :) Also, he wrote a letter to his Patron, the Duke of Bavaria, which would today read something like this: "Hey, Boss, I arrived in Munich. Thanks for the stockings. We sat around and made fun of everybody, including you." ..and for the closing words: "Okay Boss, now it's time to visit the Netherlands of my wife. I haven't fd in a while." No kidding. This is the guy. Also remember his hilarious Matona mia cara, where a German landsknecht tries to sing a cool song for his girl but in very bad Italian. The final stanza also uses the F-Word. Am 10.08.2018 um 00:25 schrieb Alain Veylit: There is a piece in Dd.2.11 entitled: "Catin" (by Orlando di Lasso!). Yesterday I saw one entitled "la pute". What are the odds that neither title would not refer to their modern meaning of "prostitute"? This also reminds me of the not so secret behind "green sleeves". Dutch paintings show many scenes of lute music with at least hints of seduction or prostitution. But it can also be easy to jump to conclusions. I thought Lasso was a rather serious composer... Alain To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
Indeed. There is a famous alexandrin in one of Corneille's tragedies: "Et le desir s'accroit quand l'effet se recule". A line that is very, very ambiguous phonetically... On 08/09/2018 05:00 PM, howard posner wrote: obody’s serious all the time. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
> On Aug 9, 2018, at 3:25 PM, Alain Veylit wrote: > > I thought Lasso was a rather serious composer... Nobody’s serious all the time. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: prostitution
There is a piece in Dd.2.11 entitled: "Catin" (by Orlando di Lasso!). Yesterday I saw one entitled "la pute". What are the odds that neither title would not refer to their modern meaning of "prostitute"? This also reminds me of the not so secret behind "green sleeves". Dutch paintings show many scenes of lute music with at least hints of seduction or prostitution. But it can also be easy to jump to conclusions. I thought Lasso was a rather serious composer... Alain To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
