Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings
I answer Gernot, and write to all. Two posters? Conveniently as the non lute topic was so long I reset my email list to subject so I could read the entire thread in sequence. Wow, there next to each other were exact duplicate messages from Rosinfiorino and Carlos Flores. The last time I connected those names was in long messages on some kind of internal imperative, or some such thing resembling the Force from Star Wars. I believe, I believe in that force now. Else how could both Rosin and Carlos have written the exact same words? I'm not much in favor of blocking on a list - I like being told I'm wrong so I can prove I'm right or change my opinion. But I've got to block at least one of these doppelgangers. Best, Jon Hi, you wouldn't believe how low my lutenet traffic is since I recently blocked two posters :-) Email filters are wonderful Best wishes g rosinfiorini wrote: Jon wrote: To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings
Arto, and all, I think we have been conned, as I mentioned in my message to Gernot. And I am embarrassed that I answered. But I confess to playing a number of instruments and being open to others. What the hell is a LONG VIBRATING TONE. To my mind it is a very large bell in a steeple! Not exactly a musical instrument for melody and harmony. But a good way to set a pitch for the tone deaf. As I understand it, as a new lutenist, one would like the bass tones to last for a measure in order to maintain the polyphony in contrapuntal arrangements. But one doesn't want the bass to overpower the treble, they should be balanced as on performs the divisions on the upper (and conversely the lower) line. I open myself to correction from you all, the experienced lutenists. But I hope those of you who at an earlier stage in my learning thought I knew nothing will accept the question as well intended. BTW, for those who deplored my flat back I'm about a week from finishing the mold for the traditional Renaissance lute I'm making. Then I figure about three months to finish it to the point of stringing - but then there are the adjustments. I commend Music Makers for that cheap flat back kit - without it I would never have come to this magnificent instrument as the entry price would have been too high. When I finish my new lute I'll use the flat back to introduce others to the lute, it should be revived. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: rosinfiorini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings Dear lutenists i'm not talking about the beauty of the bass (whatever that means),=20 what i talk about is the fact that most of us, lute players, preffer a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. I strongly doubt that! Many, perhaps most of us(?), used some time ago the wound pyramid basses. Those modern guitar style strings have very long vibrating tone. And most of us(?) wanted to get rid of long vibrating tones, which made an archlute or theorbo sound like a grand piano played with pedal down... Gut and its modern imitators behave much better. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings
I can agree with the beauty of the bass, and I'm not sure how R. got the impression that I was suggesting a certain pitch for a certain guage (and I'm not sure what that means). One can go as long as one wants on fretted courses, just make a longer neck and more frets - and if your arm is too short get an assistant to do the fretting g. My point was that any instrument with a fixed vibrating length has a limit on the range of pitches, and therefore courses, using string guages within reason. A bass too tight has a tight sound, a bass too loose has no sound. I have listened to the singing of strings a half inch thick and sixty feet long, strummed by the wind. The true logic is that each guage has a length and tension combination that will produce a musical sound. And that musical sound is affected by where in the range the combination is. At the lower end of the range the sound will be fuller, with more overtones, and at the upper end a bit brighter. Theer is a music in many things, the thrumming of the standing rigging in a high wind playing off the almost random percussion of the loose halyards snapping against the mast makes music to a sailor's ears. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: rosinfiorini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:12 AM Subject: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings Jon wrote: But it is only important on a lute as to the chaterelle, and the highest pitch one wants to attain (and for many coursed lutes whether the bass courses can make a musical sound without the extension of the VL, as in the arch lutes and theorbos). for many lute players the extension of the vibrating lenght (VL) is not a simple dry, technical means to provide certain pitch for certain gauge, etc. It is the means to have a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. You can't go too long on fretted courses but why not on the basses--this is the true logic behind very long basses. Longer vibrating bass is sweet and dull, drum-like, quickly dying bass string of short lenght is better for marimba loving sound(lol) Craig, Arto has given you a number I can't quarrel with for the carbon fibers for mass, but tensile strength is another matter (and for those who have corrected me for using that term, it may be inexact as one is dealing with stress, but it is a usable term). The mass is a cubic measure (as Arto gave it), after all there can be no mass in a pure plane any more than there is length in a point or width in a line. In our three dimensional world one needs all three dimensions to make up mass (I won't speak for the Flatlanders, nor for extradimensional beings - just for our particular space). But the strength, in the sense of breaking stress, is a square measure. Within limits the length makes no difference, only the stress resistance of the material (in bridge cables one has to add the weight of the cable itself to the load it bears, and other such confusions - and with strings one has to consider the imperfections that multiply the longer the string). Tensile strength is of interest to lutenists (and other string players) because of the question of breaking pitch, which tends to be the same no matter the gauge of the string for a given length. The string of greater mass needs a higher tension (stress) to reach a pitch, but it also has greater strength due to the thicker cross section. It is not intuitive that the breaking pitch should always be the same for a given material - the relationships might not be linear - but it seems they are. Experimentation seems to have shown that. I hope to soon be able to have some empirical data on the topic, but the strings I've got tensile strength figures for seem to react as predicted for breaking pitch when put to the test. But it is only important on a lute as to the chaterelle, and the highest pitch one wants to attain (and for many coursed lutes whether the bass courses can make a musical sound without the extension of the VL, as in the arch lutes and theorbos). Best, Jon - Original Message - From: Craig Robert Pierpont To: Lute List Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 6:27 PM Subject: Carbon fiber strings Does anybody have the mass and tensile strength values for carbon fiber strings. (Saverez strings claim not to be carbon fiber so those numbers won't necessarily work.) Thanks, Craig __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr --
Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings
Jon wrote: I can agree with the beauty of the bass *** i'm not talking about the beauty of the bass (whatever that means), what i talk about is the fact that most of us, lute players, preffer a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. I've taken time to read some of your lenghtly writings (hard to find exactly what your question is each time, they say--hehe) and i've never seen this one concept being mentioned. So i though i'd give you my attention and mention something new for your 'explorations'. Or have you passed the age when the last openness for new things is sealed:))) (hope not!) So, may-be, amongst all of your empirical mesurements of tension, stress, pitch, vibrating lenght, diameter, etc.., time lenght of the vibrating tone can find place too if you wish.. * Jon wrote: and I'm not sure how R. got the impression that I was suggesting a certain pitch for a certain guage (and I'm not sure what that means). *** i thought that's what you talk about all the time: the corelations, proportions, dependencies, etc, between gauges, pitches, vibrating lenghts, densities etc. What i meant is that besides all these notions, the notion/exploration of Time Lenght of Vibration can be interesting to be studied too--together with it's corelations with the other notions. * Jon wrote: One can go as long as one wants on fretted courses, just make a longer neck and more frets *** no. not for the renaissance lute repertoire at least. what do you play J? * Jon wrote: and if your arm is too short get an assistant to do the fretting *** May-be my hand's lenght is just like you 'sight': handsome for a hand but short for a sight. Hey Jon, do you have you thick glasses somewhere there within a...hand's reach? (hahaha!!!) Or may-be you attach them to your cardigan's button with an appropriate gauge/density/lenght string to pull them when they are too far. Come on Jon, don't be a girlie:) You want my measurements and picture? I preffer only female girls though:Þ * take care! _ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings
Dear lutenists i'm not talking about the beauty of the bass (whatever that means),=20 what i talk about is the fact that most of us, lute players, preffer a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. I strongly doubt that! Many, perhaps most of us(?), used some time ago the wound pyramid basses. Those modern guitar style strings have very long vibrating tone. And most of us(?) wanted to get rid of long vibrating tones, which made an archlute or theorbo sound like a grand piano played with pedal down... Gut and its modern imitators behave much better. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings
Agreed. For my purposes, tuning stability and a tone quality that's compatible with the treble strings is more of a concern than length of sustain in the bass. Eric Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- On Wed 01/26, Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Arto Wikla [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:24:53 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings brDear lutenistsbrbr i'm not talking about the beauty of the bass (whatever that means),=20br what i talk about is the fact that most of us, lute players, prefferbr a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. br brI strongly doubt that! Many, perhaps most of us(?), used some time agobrthe wound pyramid basses. Those modern guitar style strings have verybrlong vibrating tone. And most of us(?) wanted to get rid of longbrvibrating tones, which made an archlute or theorbo sound like a grandbrpiano played with pedal down...brbrGut and its modern imitators behave much better.brbrArtobrbrbrbrTo get on or off this list see list information atbrhttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htmlbr ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web!
Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings
Arto Wikla mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. I strongly doubt that! Many, perhaps most of us(?), used some time ago the wound pyramid basses. Those modern guitar style strings have very long vibrating tone. And most of us(?) wanted to get rid of long vibrating tones, which made an archlute or theorbo sound like a grand piano played with pedal down... yes, indeed. In August I attended a recital with music by Weiss, played on a 13c swan-neck with endlessly vibrating wound basses. Couldn't help falling asleep (my way of resistance in hopeless situations of that kind). A week ago, I had a newly built swan-neck (after Martin Hoffmann) in my hands that was strung with nylgut all over, i. e. down to the 13th course. The maker was afraid it might *plopp* too much with the very tone fading too soon. But I enjoyed it very much. It was strong and clear and had an percussive element that considerably contributed to the rhythmical structure of the music. -- Cheers, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings
At 09:41 PM 1/26/2005 +, Mathias Rösel wrote: yes, indeed. In August I attended a recital with music by Weiss, played on a 13c swan-neck with endlessly vibrating wound basses. Couldn't help falling asleep (my way of resistance in hopeless situations of that kind). Having a swan neck stringing it in wound basses is defeating the purpose. The reason for a swan neck is to add length to a bass string to give it more clarity (that is, a GUT bass string). When one adds the length uses wound strings, it makes for LONG sustains, which are not very musical. Sort of like playing the piano with the sustain pedal on all the time. Some like this effect, but it is most unpleasant, in my opinion. A week ago, I had a newly built swan-neck (after Martin Hoffmann) in my hands that was strung with nylgut all over, i. e. down to the 13th course. The maker was afraid it might *plopp* too much with the very tone fading too soon. But I enjoyed it very much. It was strong and clear and had an percussive element that considerably contributed to the rhythmical structure of the music. -- Cheers, Congratulations on the new lute. I encourage you to try gut basses, as they will be warmer and clearer in the sound. After those basses are on for a month or 2, the tuning issue is mostly resolved. Ed Mathias Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
