Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
Olá Christian! First of all, thank you for the wonderful job that you and the other developers are doing with this unique tool that is LyX! Next, I would like to thank you because today I learnt my first word in Swedish and that was agreeable to me. Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: Why the list is 'English only'. It sounds as there's no discussion about the list being or not English only, when you say yourself I think it's safe to say it is 'English only'. If you think it's safe it means that you're not sure and if you're not sure is because there is no policy set about that, at least yet. In fact, you have placed, in your answer, two *very* different hypothesis: As for a user that is uncomfortable or unable to express himself in English, he could for instance start by asking for help in translating the question. As long as the question and answer are understandable in English, it really doesn't matter how the question is originally posed. Again, this is so that most of us will be able to benefit. and I think it's safe to say it is English only (...) As for letting people know it's English only, this should of course be done in a polite manner that is easy to understand. (...) Put differently, it'd be selfish to for instance ask to get a reply privately because then only that person benefits. Somewhat similarly, getting a reply in a language that a minority understands could also be construed as selfish. Since English is the language most users are likely to be able to read, it makes sense that questions and answers should be in English. (...) If this is not desireable or inconvenient for a group of people, then they can and have started separate forums (...) We can only hope that they will also follow this list, and contribute non-local issues here as well. Lets call your first hypothesis the ENGLISH TRANSLATION REQUIRED hypothesis and the second one the ENGLISH ONLY hypothesis, shall we? The ENGLISH ONLY hyphotesis is: * *Totalitarian*, as it doesn't give any alternative option. * *Exclusivist*, as it defines the list as a select club where only English speakers/writers are welcome. * *Disregarding an uncaring*, as as it is equal to saying if you do not speak/write English, we do not want to know about you and we sure do not care about your problems or difficulties. * *Segregationist*, as it suggests that different kinds should be set apart. * *Prejudicial*, as it tries to establish the strange notion that English is the language most users are likely to be able to read, which, even if it was true, disregards the fact that LyX itself is translated to 21 different languages and that there's a great chance that a sizable percentage of those other languages LyX users are not English speakers. * *Unethical*, as disregards minorities just for being minorities. * *Unhacker*, and lets not forget that FOSS (free and open source software) exists because of what Pekka Himanen, Manuel Castells and Eric Raymond, among others, call Hacker Culture, which has, as you know, a very strong ethic, based namely on liberty -- liberty to create, know, contribute and divulge --, collaboration, reciprocity and informality. * *Oposed to the concepts of Open Access and Free Culture* which are concepts that should be dear to scientists and academics as to us all. Unlike Sweden, that has high English learning success rates, there are many countries where that doesn't happen and I know myself many people that refuse the idea of participating in these lists because they do not know enough English. I am not a linguist, so I do not know how similar the two languages (Swedish and English) may or may not be. It seems that the modern name Sweden is derived through back-formation from Old English Sweoðeod, which meant people of the Swedes (Wkipedia), and Swedish belongs to the Germanic languages, as English does, so I guess that they share some structural similarities and that might be not so hard for you to learn it. By my own experience I can assure you that's not so easy for all the others to learn English and that it took me many years before I felt confident enough to participate in these kind of lists. Even in what regards operationality, I think that the English Only option generates a great potential loss to us all. You say and I quote If this is not desireable or inconvenient for a group of people, then they can and have started separate forums, and you've pointed a French one. I was there and found that in the last two months they've exchanged 6 messages. I found as well that in the French LyX page -- http://yann.morere.free.fr/lyx/configure.html -- their link Liste des Utilisateurs (users list) points to this list and not to the French forum. Anyway, their forum could be exchanging hundreds or
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only
Roberto Gorjão [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: Why the list is 'English only'. I think it would be better to say that English is the preferred language. I do not think it is interesting to have discussions ongoing in a language other than English (since the goal is to have everybody join the discussion). Nevertheless, questions in languages other than english should be accepted politely and efficiently if possible. You say and I quote If this is not desireable or inconvenient for a group of people, then they can and have started separate forums, and you've pointed a French one. I was there and found that in the last two months they've exchanged 6 messages. The french list is indeed not very active. It was created because some people asked for it, but it never gained real momentum. I found as well that in the French LyX page -- http://yann.morere.free.fr/lyx/configure.html -- their link Liste des Utilisateurs (users list) points to this list and not to the French forum. There is no such thing as a french lyx page. The page you point to has not been modified since 2004. Anyway, their forum could be exchanging hundreds or thousands of messages, that's not the point. The point is that all messages that are exchanged elsewhere make this list poorer and that information that is shared there will not help any of us. Yes, like all threads in Hungarian would make the list poorer as far as I am concerned, since I do not read it. That's why the English Only option is in fact totalitarian. I think using such strong words will not help you to be heard :) I do not think there are such things as hard rules on the language on this list. Nevertheless, any choice is imperfect, and English is considered as the simplest common ground. Si je me mettais à répondre en français aux questions techniques, il y aurait beaucoup de détails qui seraient perdus, même pour les autres utilisateurs qui ont des notions de cette langue. JMarc
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Roberto Gorjão wrote: Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: Why the list is 'English only'. The change of the subject was the last thing I did, writing at a very late time in the night. I did the change to emphasize it was a change of topic, thinking anything would work... apparently not. My apologies, I didn't mean to get you riled. If you and others wish to discuss these issues here, you are of course welcome. The idea with volunteer translators seems quite good if it'll work in practice. As for your extensive reply, I unfortunately do not have time to digest it, but I did read Jean-Marc's reply which seems reasonable to me. I even trust that weird text at the end which I actually couldn't understand.:-) Med vänliga hälsningar /Christian (With friendly greetings... doesn't quite translate) -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Si je me mettais à répondre en français aux questions techniques, il y aurait beaucoup de détails qui seraient perdus, même pour les autres utilisateurs qui ont des notions de cette langue. Certains détails risqueraient même d'être perdus par les Francophones ;-) Abdel.
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Roberto Gorjão [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: Why the list is 'English only'. I think it would be better to say that English is the preferred language. I do not think it is interesting to have discussions ongoing in a language other than English (since the goal is to have everybody join the discussion). Nevertheless, questions in languages other than english should be accepted politely and efficiently if possible. That's very reasonable, thank you! Anyway, their forum could be exchanging hundreds or thousands of messages, that's not the point. The point is that all messages that are exchanged elsewhere make this list poorer and that information that is shared there will not help any of us. Yes, like all threads in Hungarian would make the list poorer as far as I am concerned, since I do not read it. If an Hungarian (or Portuguese or any other language) thread carried some new insight about any important issue, then it would make the list poorer if that insight was not translated and given to our common knowledge. The question is that insight might not have appeared in the first place if that Hungarian person didn't feel welcome at this list. That's why the English Only option is in fact totalitarian. I think using such strong words will not help you to be heard :) I do not think there are such things as hard rules on the language on this list. Nevertheless, any choice is imperfect, and English is considered as the simplest common ground. I apologize if I used any word that might be considered too strong. Explaining our views in a language that is not our mother tongue is really difficult and sometimes one may, while trying to create a strong case, use expressions that might result awkward in some contexts. That was definitely not my intention! I must say, for the sake of clarity, that I do not think there's nothing of totalitarian about this list. It's a very friendly list that transpires solidarity and its renowned by that (I read very nice references about this list even before I ever tried LyX). I just want to contribute to keep it that way. I also want to contribute to the spreading of LyX and I'm trying to do my share on that department as well. Si je me mettais à répondre en français aux questions techniques, il y aurait beaucoup de détails qui seraient perdus, même pour les autres utilisateurs qui ont des notions de cette langue. JMarc As I think it was already implicit, I'll do my best to help translating any Portuguese, Spanish or French message that might appear in this list. I will begin with yours: JMarc said: If I answered to technical questions in French, many details would be lost, even for the users that have some notions on this language. Best regards, Roberto -- Roberto Gorjão freelance designer and web designer personal site: www.castelosnoar.com PORTUGAL / BRAGA / PÓVOA DE LANHOSO
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Roberto Gorjão wrote: Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: Why the list is 'English only'. The change of the subject was the last thing I did, writing at a very late time in the night. I did the change to emphasize it was a change of topic, thinking anything would work... apparently not. My apologies, I didn't mean to get you riled. If you and others wish to discuss these issues here, you are of course welcome. The idea with volunteer translators seems quite good if it'll work in practice. Thanks, Christian, for your kind answer. As I already said in my answer to Jean-Marc, I'll do my best to help in those translations whenever needed. Med vänliga hälsningar /Christian (With friendly greetings... doesn't quite translate) Cordiais saudações (friendly greetings). Roberto
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only
I'll just keep this part of your message: It's a very friendly list that transpires solidarity and its renowned by that (I read very nice references about this list even before I ever tried LyX). I think it sums up the situation. People on this list most of the time try to be nice and helpful. Knowing this, it is safer not to be too touchy about messages that hurt your feelings, they tend to be rare and accidental[*]. JMarc [*] on the other hand, you should try to avoid the lyx-devel list until your skin grows thicker. The tone is different there ;)
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Si je me mettais à répondre en français aux questions techniques, il y aurait beaucoup de détails qui seraient perdus, même pour les autres utilisateurs qui ont des notions de cette langue. Certains détails risqueraient même d'être perdus par les Francophones ;-) Or for those who just don't understand the technical points being discussed. No answer, in any language, will work for everyone. We live with that. -- David L. Johnson I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionize our educational system and that in a few years it will supplant largely, if not entirely, the use of textbooks -- Thomas Edison, 1922
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
I'm a bit bemused (if that's the right word) by this thread, mainly the fact that most ardent advocates of some version of English as the official list language seem to be in the main not native speakers of English, and the native speakers seem to be in the main sitting on the sideline. Roberto Gorjão wrote: [... skipping some of the more heated portions ...] This hypothesis also reflects the idea that not only the English is the language most users are likely to be able to read but that things should be kept that way. While recognizing that each community should decide freely which language should be pointed as preferably spoken, I strongly disagree with the idea of English as an international language. English requires many years of continuous practise to master Quite true, and in fact the Brits are still working on getting it right. :-) and using it as international support of communication on all situations creates an unfair disadvantage to those that do not speak natively that language and in fact a sense of awkwardness that constraints many not to express their views. In my opinion, international auxiliary languages should be used in these situations -- specially Interlingua, as naturalistic international languages have proofed themselves more easy to learn than schematic ones like Esperanto. In my misspent youth, I actually learned a bit of Esperanto -- only to lose it since nobody else within 100 miles (ca. 160 km) knew a word of it. My point here being that if we try to use something like Interlingua for a list such as ours, we will achieve the egalitarian outcome of driving everyone off it. I know, off course, this is a polemic issue, to say the least, but I remind you that if English is still probably the language in which the majority of most important contents are expressed in the Internet -- and I'm not even sure about that -- Until a few years ago, I taught a course on business use of the Internet, and as of that date I believe statistics bore this out. The number of web pages written in native languages (if that is the right way to phrase it) has increased recently, and at some point we may find that the highest incidence of web pages (I won't say important since importance is in the eye of the beholder) will be in some other language -- most likely Mandarin or something close. For now, though, English is the unofficial official language of the 'Net, probably as an artifact of the origins of the Internet. other languages contents are growing exponentially and it is a shame that we do not take the opportunity to set an easy learning language as a preferable lingua franca on the Internet. That will be surely penalizing for us all in a short time. This is an interesting topic, although perhaps not directly germane to the immediate problem of this list's language(s). Historically, Internet access was restricted to a demographic slice with above average education, which outside the US implies a higher likelihood of being polylingual (and, in particular, having some fluency in English). As Internet use spreads to a wider swath of the overall population, I agree that it will be progressively more difficult to sustain English as a common tongue for the 'Net. But we're wandering a bit wide afield here. (Sorry, but I'm an academic, so I can never pass up the opportunity to go off on a tangent.) Anyway, I would like to propose a third way to this list, a different hypothesis that we could call ENGLISH TRANSLATION APPRECIATED. Calling for some further explanation at the list policies document, for example, where it could be made clearer that the translation would be considered a way of contributing for the common knowledge but not necessarily required in all times, this third way, IMO, would not inhibit the participation of any user while keeping the list as organized and effective as possible. A variant to this third hypothesis would be keeping the English Translation Appreciated policy while setting Interlingua as the official language of the list, thus promoting a better future and setting the example. I suspect that a quick survey of Interlingua speakers on the list will turn up very few. I agree with what someone (Christian?) said about keeping postings accessible to as many people as possible, not just the original poster and those responding. At the same time, given how useful (critical?) the list is as a resource to users, I do think we need to make it accessible to all users. Rather than asking responders to translate posts, I would suggest that we simply ask anyone whose English is good enough to post their messages in English. If someone lacks the necessary English, or would have to spend considerable time translating their message (as I would if this were, say, a German-speaking list), then let them post in their native tongue and receive responses in it, with the caveat that posting in
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
Paul A. Rubin wrote: I agree with what someone (Christian?) said about keeping postings accessible to as many people as possible, not just the original poster and those responding. Just a purely pragmatical side note: one of the uses of this list are its archieves, and many people use the archieves to query for answers to their (LaTeX, LyX) problems. Querying will become more difficult if multiple languages are used (if I'm trying to solve my problems with page margins, I'll have to search for margins, Seitenränder, marges de page and so on). This is not unsolvable, of course. English key words could be used, for instance. Jürgen
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 03:19:11PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Roberto Gorjão wrote: Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: Why the list is 'English only'. The change of the subject was the last thing I did, writing at a very late time in the night. I did the change to emphasize it was a change of topic, thinking anything would work... apparently not. My apologies, I didn't mean to get you riled. If you and others wish to discuss these issues here, you are of course welcome. The idea with volunteer translators seems quite good if it'll work in practice. As for your extensive reply, I unfortunately do not have time to digest it, but I did read Jean-Marc's reply which seems reasonable to me. I even trust that weird text at the end which I actually couldn't understand.:-) Med vänliga hälsningar /Christian (With friendly greetings... doesn't quite translate) But With friendly greetings translates very well into German. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Andre'
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
Med vänliga hälsningar /Christian (With friendly greetings... doesn't quite translate) But With friendly greetings translates very well into German. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, I actually thought of writing that as explation for the swedish text:-) /C -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
Olá Christian! First of all, thank you for the wonderful job that you and the other developers are doing with this unique tool that is LyX! Next, I would like to thank you because today I learnt my first word in Swedish and that was agreeable to me. Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: Why the list is 'English only'. It sounds as there's no discussion about the list being or not English only, when you say yourself I think it's safe to say it is 'English only'. If you think it's safe it means that you're not sure and if you're not sure is because there is no policy set about that, at least yet. In fact, you have placed, in your answer, two *very* different hypothesis: As for a user that is uncomfortable or unable to express himself in English, he could for instance start by asking for help in translating the question. As long as the question and answer are understandable in English, it really doesn't matter how the question is originally posed. Again, this is so that most of us will be able to benefit. and I think it's safe to say it is English only (...) As for letting people know it's English only, this should of course be done in a polite manner that is easy to understand. (...) Put differently, it'd be selfish to for instance ask to get a reply privately because then only that person benefits. Somewhat similarly, getting a reply in a language that a minority understands could also be construed as selfish. Since English is the language most users are likely to be able to read, it makes sense that questions and answers should be in English. (...) If this is not desireable or inconvenient for a group of people, then they can and have started separate forums (...) We can only hope that they will also follow this list, and contribute non-local issues here as well. Lets call your first hypothesis the ENGLISH TRANSLATION REQUIRED hypothesis and the second one the ENGLISH ONLY hypothesis, shall we? The ENGLISH ONLY hyphotesis is: * *Totalitarian*, as it doesn't give any alternative option. * *Exclusivist*, as it defines the list as a select club where only English speakers/writers are welcome. * *Disregarding an uncaring*, as as it is equal to saying if you do not speak/write English, we do not want to know about you and we sure do not care about your problems or difficulties. * *Segregationist*, as it suggests that different kinds should be set apart. * *Prejudicial*, as it tries to establish the strange notion that English is the language most users are likely to be able to read, which, even if it was true, disregards the fact that LyX itself is translated to 21 different languages and that there's a great chance that a sizable percentage of those other languages LyX users are not English speakers. * *Unethical*, as disregards minorities just for being minorities. * *Unhacker*, and lets not forget that FOSS (free and open source software) exists because of what Pekka Himanen, Manuel Castells and Eric Raymond, among others, call Hacker Culture, which has, as you know, a very strong ethic, based namely on liberty -- liberty to create, know, contribute and divulge --, collaboration, reciprocity and informality. * *Oposed to the concepts of Open Access and Free Culture* which are concepts that should be dear to scientists and academics as to us all. Unlike Sweden, that has high English learning success rates, there are many countries where that doesn't happen and I know myself many people that refuse the idea of participating in these lists because they do not know enough English. I am not a linguist, so I do not know how similar the two languages (Swedish and English) may or may not be. It seems that the modern name Sweden is derived through back-formation from Old English Sweoðeod, which meant people of the Swedes (Wkipedia), and Swedish belongs to the Germanic languages, as English does, so I guess that they share some structural similarities and that might be not so hard for you to learn it. By my own experience I can assure you that's not so easy for all the others to learn English and that it took me many years before I felt confident enough to participate in these kind of lists. Even in what regards operationality, I think that the English Only option generates a great potential loss to us all. You say and I quote If this is not desireable or inconvenient for a group of people, then they can and have started separate forums, and you've pointed a French one. I was there and found that in the last two months they've exchanged 6 messages. I found as well that in the French LyX page -- http://yann.morere.free.fr/lyx/configure.html -- their link Liste des Utilisateurs (users list) points to this list and not to the French forum. Anyway, their forum could be exchanging hundreds or
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only
Roberto Gorjão [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: Why the list is 'English only'. I think it would be better to say that English is the preferred language. I do not think it is interesting to have discussions ongoing in a language other than English (since the goal is to have everybody join the discussion). Nevertheless, questions in languages other than english should be accepted politely and efficiently if possible. You say and I quote If this is not desireable or inconvenient for a group of people, then they can and have started separate forums, and you've pointed a French one. I was there and found that in the last two months they've exchanged 6 messages. The french list is indeed not very active. It was created because some people asked for it, but it never gained real momentum. I found as well that in the French LyX page -- http://yann.morere.free.fr/lyx/configure.html -- their link Liste des Utilisateurs (users list) points to this list and not to the French forum. There is no such thing as a french lyx page. The page you point to has not been modified since 2004. Anyway, their forum could be exchanging hundreds or thousands of messages, that's not the point. The point is that all messages that are exchanged elsewhere make this list poorer and that information that is shared there will not help any of us. Yes, like all threads in Hungarian would make the list poorer as far as I am concerned, since I do not read it. That's why the English Only option is in fact totalitarian. I think using such strong words will not help you to be heard :) I do not think there are such things as hard rules on the language on this list. Nevertheless, any choice is imperfect, and English is considered as the simplest common ground. Si je me mettais à répondre en français aux questions techniques, il y aurait beaucoup de détails qui seraient perdus, même pour les autres utilisateurs qui ont des notions de cette langue. JMarc
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Roberto Gorjão wrote: Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: Why the list is 'English only'. The change of the subject was the last thing I did, writing at a very late time in the night. I did the change to emphasize it was a change of topic, thinking anything would work... apparently not. My apologies, I didn't mean to get you riled. If you and others wish to discuss these issues here, you are of course welcome. The idea with volunteer translators seems quite good if it'll work in practice. As for your extensive reply, I unfortunately do not have time to digest it, but I did read Jean-Marc's reply which seems reasonable to me. I even trust that weird text at the end which I actually couldn't understand.:-) Med vänliga hälsningar /Christian (With friendly greetings... doesn't quite translate) -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Si je me mettais à répondre en français aux questions techniques, il y aurait beaucoup de détails qui seraient perdus, même pour les autres utilisateurs qui ont des notions de cette langue. Certains détails risqueraient même d'être perdus par les Francophones ;-) Abdel.
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Roberto Gorjão [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: Why the list is 'English only'. I think it would be better to say that English is the preferred language. I do not think it is interesting to have discussions ongoing in a language other than English (since the goal is to have everybody join the discussion). Nevertheless, questions in languages other than english should be accepted politely and efficiently if possible. That's very reasonable, thank you! Anyway, their forum could be exchanging hundreds or thousands of messages, that's not the point. The point is that all messages that are exchanged elsewhere make this list poorer and that information that is shared there will not help any of us. Yes, like all threads in Hungarian would make the list poorer as far as I am concerned, since I do not read it. If an Hungarian (or Portuguese or any other language) thread carried some new insight about any important issue, then it would make the list poorer if that insight was not translated and given to our common knowledge. The question is that insight might not have appeared in the first place if that Hungarian person didn't feel welcome at this list. That's why the English Only option is in fact totalitarian. I think using such strong words will not help you to be heard :) I do not think there are such things as hard rules on the language on this list. Nevertheless, any choice is imperfect, and English is considered as the simplest common ground. I apologize if I used any word that might be considered too strong. Explaining our views in a language that is not our mother tongue is really difficult and sometimes one may, while trying to create a strong case, use expressions that might result awkward in some contexts. That was definitely not my intention! I must say, for the sake of clarity, that I do not think there's nothing of totalitarian about this list. It's a very friendly list that transpires solidarity and its renowned by that (I read very nice references about this list even before I ever tried LyX). I just want to contribute to keep it that way. I also want to contribute to the spreading of LyX and I'm trying to do my share on that department as well. Si je me mettais à répondre en français aux questions techniques, il y aurait beaucoup de détails qui seraient perdus, même pour les autres utilisateurs qui ont des notions de cette langue. JMarc As I think it was already implicit, I'll do my best to help translating any Portuguese, Spanish or French message that might appear in this list. I will begin with yours: JMarc said: If I answered to technical questions in French, many details would be lost, even for the users that have some notions on this language. Best regards, Roberto -- Roberto Gorjão freelance designer and web designer personal site: www.castelosnoar.com PORTUGAL / BRAGA / PÓVOA DE LANHOSO
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Roberto Gorjão wrote: Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: Why the list is 'English only'. The change of the subject was the last thing I did, writing at a very late time in the night. I did the change to emphasize it was a change of topic, thinking anything would work... apparently not. My apologies, I didn't mean to get you riled. If you and others wish to discuss these issues here, you are of course welcome. The idea with volunteer translators seems quite good if it'll work in practice. Thanks, Christian, for your kind answer. As I already said in my answer to Jean-Marc, I'll do my best to help in those translations whenever needed. Med vänliga hälsningar /Christian (With friendly greetings... doesn't quite translate) Cordiais saudações (friendly greetings). Roberto
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only
I'll just keep this part of your message: It's a very friendly list that transpires solidarity and its renowned by that (I read very nice references about this list even before I ever tried LyX). I think it sums up the situation. People on this list most of the time try to be nice and helpful. Knowing this, it is safer not to be too touchy about messages that hurt your feelings, they tend to be rare and accidental[*]. JMarc [*] on the other hand, you should try to avoid the lyx-devel list until your skin grows thicker. The tone is different there ;)
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Si je me mettais à répondre en français aux questions techniques, il y aurait beaucoup de détails qui seraient perdus, même pour les autres utilisateurs qui ont des notions de cette langue. Certains détails risqueraient même d'être perdus par les Francophones ;-) Or for those who just don't understand the technical points being discussed. No answer, in any language, will work for everyone. We live with that. -- David L. Johnson I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionize our educational system and that in a few years it will supplant largely, if not entirely, the use of textbooks -- Thomas Edison, 1922
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
I'm a bit bemused (if that's the right word) by this thread, mainly the fact that most ardent advocates of some version of English as the official list language seem to be in the main not native speakers of English, and the native speakers seem to be in the main sitting on the sideline. Roberto Gorjão wrote: [... skipping some of the more heated portions ...] This hypothesis also reflects the idea that not only the English is the language most users are likely to be able to read but that things should be kept that way. While recognizing that each community should decide freely which language should be pointed as preferably spoken, I strongly disagree with the idea of English as an international language. English requires many years of continuous practise to master Quite true, and in fact the Brits are still working on getting it right. :-) and using it as international support of communication on all situations creates an unfair disadvantage to those that do not speak natively that language and in fact a sense of awkwardness that constraints many not to express their views. In my opinion, international auxiliary languages should be used in these situations -- specially Interlingua, as naturalistic international languages have proofed themselves more easy to learn than schematic ones like Esperanto. In my misspent youth, I actually learned a bit of Esperanto -- only to lose it since nobody else within 100 miles (ca. 160 km) knew a word of it. My point here being that if we try to use something like Interlingua for a list such as ours, we will achieve the egalitarian outcome of driving everyone off it. I know, off course, this is a polemic issue, to say the least, but I remind you that if English is still probably the language in which the majority of most important contents are expressed in the Internet -- and I'm not even sure about that -- Until a few years ago, I taught a course on business use of the Internet, and as of that date I believe statistics bore this out. The number of web pages written in native languages (if that is the right way to phrase it) has increased recently, and at some point we may find that the highest incidence of web pages (I won't say important since importance is in the eye of the beholder) will be in some other language -- most likely Mandarin or something close. For now, though, English is the unofficial official language of the 'Net, probably as an artifact of the origins of the Internet. other languages contents are growing exponentially and it is a shame that we do not take the opportunity to set an easy learning language as a preferable lingua franca on the Internet. That will be surely penalizing for us all in a short time. This is an interesting topic, although perhaps not directly germane to the immediate problem of this list's language(s). Historically, Internet access was restricted to a demographic slice with above average education, which outside the US implies a higher likelihood of being polylingual (and, in particular, having some fluency in English). As Internet use spreads to a wider swath of the overall population, I agree that it will be progressively more difficult to sustain English as a common tongue for the 'Net. But we're wandering a bit wide afield here. (Sorry, but I'm an academic, so I can never pass up the opportunity to go off on a tangent.) Anyway, I would like to propose a third way to this list, a different hypothesis that we could call ENGLISH TRANSLATION APPRECIATED. Calling for some further explanation at the list policies document, for example, where it could be made clearer that the translation would be considered a way of contributing for the common knowledge but not necessarily required in all times, this third way, IMO, would not inhibit the participation of any user while keeping the list as organized and effective as possible. A variant to this third hypothesis would be keeping the English Translation Appreciated policy while setting Interlingua as the official language of the list, thus promoting a better future and setting the example. I suspect that a quick survey of Interlingua speakers on the list will turn up very few. I agree with what someone (Christian?) said about keeping postings accessible to as many people as possible, not just the original poster and those responding. At the same time, given how useful (critical?) the list is as a resource to users, I do think we need to make it accessible to all users. Rather than asking responders to translate posts, I would suggest that we simply ask anyone whose English is good enough to post their messages in English. If someone lacks the necessary English, or would have to spend considerable time translating their message (as I would if this were, say, a German-speaking list), then let them post in their native tongue and receive responses in it, with the caveat that posting in
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
Paul A. Rubin wrote: I agree with what someone (Christian?) said about keeping postings accessible to as many people as possible, not just the original poster and those responding. Just a purely pragmatical side note: one of the uses of this list are its archieves, and many people use the archieves to query for answers to their (LaTeX, LyX) problems. Querying will become more difficult if multiple languages are used (if I'm trying to solve my problems with page margins, I'll have to search for margins, Seitenränder, marges de page and so on). This is not unsolvable, of course. English key words could be used, for instance. Jürgen
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 03:19:11PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Roberto Gorjão wrote: Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: Why the list is 'English only'. The change of the subject was the last thing I did, writing at a very late time in the night. I did the change to emphasize it was a change of topic, thinking anything would work... apparently not. My apologies, I didn't mean to get you riled. If you and others wish to discuss these issues here, you are of course welcome. The idea with volunteer translators seems quite good if it'll work in practice. As for your extensive reply, I unfortunately do not have time to digest it, but I did read Jean-Marc's reply which seems reasonable to me. I even trust that weird text at the end which I actually couldn't understand.:-) Med vänliga hälsningar /Christian (With friendly greetings... doesn't quite translate) But With friendly greetings translates very well into German. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Andre'
Re: Why the list should remain as Not English only (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
Med vänliga hälsningar /Christian (With friendly greetings... doesn't quite translate) But With friendly greetings translates very well into German. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, I actually thought of writing that as explation for the swedish text:-) /C -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Re: Why the list should remain as "Not English only" (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
Olá Christian! First of all, thank you for the wonderful job that you and the other developers are doing with this unique tool that is LyX! Next, I would like to thank you because today I learnt my first word in Swedish and that was agreeable to me. Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: "Why the list is 'English only'". It sounds as there's no discussion about the list being or not English only, when you say yourself "I think it's safe to say it is 'English only'". If you "think it's safe" it means that you're not sure and if you're not sure is because there is no policy set about that, at least yet. In fact, you have placed, in your answer, two *very* different hypothesis: As for a user that is uncomfortable or unable to express himself in English, he could for instance start by asking for help in translating the question. As long as the question and answer are understandable in English, it really doesn't matter how the question is originally posed. Again, this is so that most of us will be able to benefit. and I think it's safe to say it is "English only" (...) As for letting people know it's "English only", this should of course be done in a polite manner that is easy to understand. (...) Put differently, it'd be selfish to for instance ask to get a reply privately because then only that person benefits. Somewhat similarly, getting a reply in a language that a minority understands could also be construed as selfish. Since English is the language most users are likely to be able to read, it makes sense that questions and answers should be in English. (...) If this is not desireable or inconvenient for a group of people, then they can and have started separate forums (...) We can only hope that they will also follow this list, and contribute non-local issues here as well. Lets call your first hypothesis the "ENGLISH TRANSLATION REQUIRED" hypothesis and the second one the "ENGLISH ONLY" hypothesis, shall we? The "ENGLISH ONLY" hyphotesis is: * *Totalitarian*, as it doesn't give any alternative option. * *Exclusivist*, as it defines the list as a select club where only English speakers/writers are welcome. * *Disregarding an uncaring*, as as it is equal to saying "if you do not speak/write English, we do not want to know about you and we sure do not care about your problems or difficulties". * *Segregationist*, as it suggests that different "kinds" should be set apart. * *Prejudicial*, as it tries to establish the strange notion that "English is the language most users are likely to be able to read", which, even if it was true, disregards the fact that LyX itself is translated to 21 different languages and that there's a great chance that a sizable percentage of those other languages LyX users are not English speakers. * *Unethical*, as disregards minorities just for being minorities. * *Unhacker*, and lets not forget that FOSS (free and open source software) exists because of what Pekka Himanen, Manuel Castells and Eric Raymond, among others, call "Hacker Culture", which has, as you know, a very strong ethic, based namely on liberty -- liberty to create, know, contribute and divulge --, collaboration, reciprocity and informality. * *Oposed to the concepts of Open Access and Free Culture* which are concepts that should be dear to scientists and academics as to us all. Unlike Sweden, that has high English learning success rates, there are many countries where that doesn't happen and I know myself many people that refuse the idea of participating in these lists because they do not know enough English. I am not a linguist, so I do not know how similar the two languages (Swedish and English) may or may not be. It seems that "the modern name Sweden is derived through "back-formation" from Old English Sweoðeod, which meant "people of the Swedes" (Wkipedia), and Swedish belongs to the Germanic languages, as English does, so I guess that they share some structural similarities and that might be not so hard for you to learn it. By my own experience I can assure you that's not so easy for all the others to learn English and that it took me many years before I felt confident enough to participate in these kind of lists. Even in what regards operationality, I think that the "English Only" option generates a great potential loss to us all. You say and I quote " If this is not desireable or inconvenient for a group of people, then they can and have started separate forums", and you've pointed a French one. I was there and found that in the last two months they've exchanged 6 messages. I found as well that in the French LyX page -- http://yann.morere.free.fr/lyx/configure.html -- their link "Liste des Utilisateurs" (users list) points to this list and not to the French forum. Anyway, their forum
Re: Why the list should remain as "Not English only"
Roberto Gorjão <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title > that you chose to your message: "Why the list is 'English only'". I think it would be better to say that English is the preferred language. I do not think it is interesting to have discussions ongoing in a language other than English (since the goal is to have everybody join the discussion). Nevertheless, questions in languages other than english should be accepted politely and efficiently if possible. > You say and I quote " If this is not desireable or inconvenient for > a group of people, then they can and have started separate forums", > and you've pointed a French one. I was there and found that in the > last two months they've exchanged 6 messages. The french list is indeed not very active. It was created because some people asked for it, but it never gained real momentum. > I found as well that in the French LyX page -- > http://yann.morere.free.fr/lyx/configure.html -- their link "Liste > des Utilisateurs" (users list) points to this list and not to the > French forum. There is no such thing as a french lyx page. The page you point to has not been modified since 2004. > Anyway, their forum could be exchanging hundreds or > thousands of messages, that's not the point. The point is that all > messages that are exchanged elsewhere make this list poorer and that > information that is shared there will not help any of us. Yes, like all threads in Hungarian would make the list poorer as far as I am concerned, since I do not read it. > That's why the "English Only" option is in fact totalitarian. I think using such strong words will not help you to be heard :) I do not think there are such things as hard rules on the language on this list. Nevertheless, any choice is imperfect, and English is considered as the simplest common ground. Si je me mettais à répondre en français aux questions techniques, il y aurait beaucoup de détails qui seraient perdus, même pour les autres utilisateurs qui ont des notions de cette langue. JMarc
Re: Why the list should remain as "Not English only" (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Roberto Gorjão wrote:
Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title
that you chose to your message: "Why the list is 'English only'".
The change of the subject was the last thing I did, writing at a very late
time in the night. I did the change to emphasize it was a change of topic,
thinking anything would work... apparently not. My apologies, I didn't
mean to get you riled.
If you and others wish to discuss these issues here, you are of course
welcome. The idea with volunteer translators seems quite good if it'll
work in practice.
As for your extensive reply, I unfortunately do not have time to digest
it, but I did read Jean-Marc's reply which seems reasonable to me. I even
trust that weird text at the end which I actually couldn't understand.:-)
Med vänliga hälsningar
/Christian
("With friendly greetings"... doesn't quite translate)
--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Re: Why the list should remain as "Not English only"
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Si je me mettais à répondre en français aux questions techniques, il y aurait beaucoup de détails qui seraient perdus, même pour les autres utilisateurs qui ont des notions de cette langue. Certains détails risqueraient même d'être perdus par les Francophones ;-) Abdel.
Re: Why the list should remain as "Not English only"
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Roberto Gorjão <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title that you chose to your message: "Why the list is 'English only'". I think it would be better to say that English is the preferred language. I do not think it is interesting to have discussions ongoing in a language other than English (since the goal is to have everybody join the discussion). Nevertheless, questions in languages other than english should be accepted politely and efficiently if possible. That's very reasonable, thank you! Anyway, their forum could be exchanging hundreds or thousands of messages, that's not the point. The point is that all messages that are exchanged elsewhere make this list poorer and that information that is shared there will not help any of us. Yes, like all threads in Hungarian would make the list poorer as far as I am concerned, since I do not read it. If an Hungarian (or Portuguese or any other language) thread carried some new insight about any important issue, then it would make the list poorer if that insight was not translated and given to our common knowledge. The question is that insight might not have appeared in the first place if that Hungarian person didn't feel welcome at this list. That's why the "English Only" option is in fact totalitarian. I think using such strong words will not help you to be heard :) I do not think there are such things as hard rules on the language on this list. Nevertheless, any choice is imperfect, and English is considered as the simplest common ground. I apologize if I used any word that might be considered too strong. Explaining our views in a language that is not our mother tongue is really difficult and sometimes one may, while trying to create a strong case, use expressions that might result awkward in some contexts. That was definitely not my intention! I must say, for the sake of clarity, that I do not think there's nothing of totalitarian about this list. It's a very friendly list that transpires solidarity and its renowned by that (I read very nice references about this list even before I ever tried LyX). I just want to contribute to keep it that way. I also want to contribute to the spreading of LyX and I'm trying to do my share on that department as well. Si je me mettais à répondre en français aux questions techniques, il y aurait beaucoup de détails qui seraient perdus, même pour les autres utilisateurs qui ont des notions de cette langue. JMarc As I think it was already implicit, I'll do my best to help translating any Portuguese, Spanish or French message that might appear in this list. I will begin with yours: JMarc said: " If I answered to technical questions in French, many details would be lost, even for the users that have some notions on this language". Best regards, Roberto -- Roberto Gorjão freelance designer and web designer personal site: www.castelosnoar.com PORTUGAL / BRAGA / PÓVOA DE LANHOSO
Re: Why the list should remain as "Not English only" (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Roberto Gorjão wrote:
Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the
title that you chose to your message: "Why the list is 'English only'".
The change of the subject was the last thing I did, writing at a very
late time in the night. I did the change to emphasize it was a change
of topic, thinking anything would work... apparently not. My
apologies, I didn't mean to get you riled.
If you and others wish to discuss these issues here, you are of course
welcome. The idea with volunteer translators seems quite good if it'll
work in practice.
Thanks, Christian, for your kind answer.
As I already said in my answer to Jean-Marc, I'll do my best to help in
those translations whenever needed.
Med vänliga hälsningar
/Christian
("With friendly greetings"... doesn't quite translate)
Cordiais saudações (friendly greetings).
Roberto
Re: Why the list should remain as "Not English only"
I'll just keep this part of your message: > It's a very friendly list that transpires solidarity and its > renowned by that (I read very nice references about this list even > before I ever tried LyX). I think it sums up the situation. People on this list most of the time try to be nice and helpful. Knowing this, it is safer not to be too touchy about messages that hurt your feelings, they tend to be rare and accidental[*]. JMarc [*] on the other hand, you should try to avoid the lyx-devel list until your skin grows thicker. The tone is different there ;)
Re: Why the list should remain as "Not English only"
Abdelrazak Younes wrote: Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Si je me mettais à répondre en français aux questions techniques, il y aurait beaucoup de détails qui seraient perdus, même pour les autres utilisateurs qui ont des notions de cette langue. Certains détails risqueraient même d'être perdus par les Francophones ;-) Or for those who just don't understand the technical points being discussed. No answer, in any language, will work for everyone. We live with that. -- David L. Johnson I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionize our educational system and that in a few years it will supplant largely, if not entirely, the use of textbooks -- Thomas Edison, 1922
Re: Why the list should remain as "Not English only" (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
I'm a bit bemused (if that's the right word) by this thread, mainly the fact that most ardent advocates of some version of "English as the official list language" seem to be in the main not native speakers of English, and the native speakers seem to be in the main sitting on the sideline. Roberto Gorjão wrote: [... skipping some of the more heated portions ...] This hypothesis also reflects the idea that not only the "English is the language most users are likely to be able to read" but that things should be kept that way. While recognizing that each community should decide freely which language should be pointed as preferably spoken, I strongly disagree with the idea of English as an international language. English requires many years of continuous practise to master Quite true, and in fact the Brits are still working on getting it right. :-) and using it as international support of communication on all situations creates an unfair disadvantage to those that do not speak natively that language and in fact a sense of awkwardness that constraints many not to express their views. In my opinion, international auxiliary languages should be used in these situations -- specially Interlingua, as naturalistic international languages have proofed themselves more easy to learn than schematic ones like Esperanto. In my misspent youth, I actually learned a bit of Esperanto -- only to lose it since nobody else within 100 miles (ca. 160 km) knew a word of it. My point here being that if we try to use something like Interlingua for a list such as ours, we will achieve the egalitarian outcome of driving everyone off it. I know, off course, this is a polemic issue, to say the least, but I remind you that if English is still probably the language in which the majority of most important contents are expressed in the Internet -- and I'm not even sure about that -- Until a few years ago, I taught a course on business use of the Internet, and as of that date I believe statistics bore this out. The number of web pages written in "native languages" (if that is the right way to phrase it) has increased recently, and at some point we may find that the highest incidence of web pages (I won't say "important" since importance is in the eye of the beholder) will be in some other language -- most likely Mandarin or something close. For now, though, English is the unofficial "official" language of the 'Net, probably as an artifact of the origins of the Internet. other languages contents are growing exponentially and it is a shame that we do not take the opportunity to set an easy learning language as a preferable "lingua franca" on the Internet. That will be surely penalizing for us all in a short time. This is an interesting topic, although perhaps not directly germane to the immediate problem of this list's language(s). Historically, Internet access was restricted to a demographic slice with above average education, which outside the US implies a higher likelihood of being polylingual (and, in particular, having some fluency in English). As Internet use spreads to a wider swath of the overall population, I agree that it will be progressively more difficult to sustain English as a common tongue for the 'Net. But we're wandering a bit wide afield here. (Sorry, but I'm an academic, so I can never pass up the opportunity to go off on a tangent.) Anyway, I would like to propose a third way to this list, a different hypothesis that we could call "ENGLISH TRANSLATION APPRECIATED". Calling for some further explanation at the list policies document, for example, where it could be made clearer that the translation would be considered a way of contributing for the common knowledge but not necessarily required in all times, this third way, IMO, would not inhibit the participation of any user while keeping the list as organized and effective as possible. A variant to this third hypothesis would be keeping the "English Translation Appreciated" policy while setting Interlingua as the official language of the list, thus promoting a better future and setting the example. I suspect that a quick survey of Interlingua speakers on the list will turn up very few. I agree with what someone (Christian?) said about keeping postings accessible to as many people as possible, not just the original poster and those responding. At the same time, given how useful (critical?) the list is as a resource to users, I do think we need to make it accessible to all users. Rather than asking responders to translate posts, I would suggest that we simply ask anyone whose English is good enough to post their messages in English. If someone lacks the necessary English, or would have to spend considerable time translating their message (as I would if this were, say, a German-speaking list), then let them post in their native tongue and receive responses in it, with the caveat that
Re: Why the list should remain as "Not English only" (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
Paul A. Rubin wrote: > I agree with what someone (Christian?) said about keeping postings > accessible to as many people as possible, not just the original poster > and those responding. Just a purely pragmatical side note: one of the uses of this list are its archieves, and many people use the archieves to query for answers to their (LaTeX, LyX) problems. Querying will become more difficult if multiple languages are used (if I'm trying to solve my problems with page margins, I'll have to search for "margins", "Seitenränder", "marges de page" and so on). This is not unsolvable, of course. English key words could be used, for instance. Jürgen
Re: Why the list should remain as "Not English only" (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 03:19:11PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Roberto Gorjão wrote:
>
> >Now, about the issue in discussion, I must say that I resent the title
> >that you chose to your message: "Why the list is 'English only'".
>
> The change of the subject was the last thing I did, writing at a very late
> time in the night. I did the change to emphasize it was a change of topic,
> thinking anything would work... apparently not. My apologies, I didn't
> mean to get you riled.
>
> If you and others wish to discuss these issues here, you are of course
> welcome. The idea with volunteer translators seems quite good if it'll
> work in practice.
>
> As for your extensive reply, I unfortunately do not have time to digest
> it, but I did read Jean-Marc's reply which seems reasonable to me. I even
> trust that weird text at the end which I actually couldn't understand.:-)
>
> Med vänliga hälsningar
> /Christian
> ("With friendly greetings"... doesn't quite translate)
But "With friendly greetings" translates very well into German.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Andre'
Re: Why the list should remain as "Not English only" (Was: Why the list is 'English only')
Med vänliga hälsningar
/Christian
("With friendly greetings"... doesn't quite translate)
But "With friendly greetings" translates very well into German.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
I actually thought of writing that as explation for the swedish text:-)
/C
--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
